What should the Jays do with their catchers?
| Nothing, Keep them |  8 (18.18%) |
| Trade Jansen | 7 (15.91%) |
| Trade Kirk | 21 (47.73%) |
| Trade Moreno | 8 (18.18%) |
44 votes | 6 featured comments
The C thread was very well presented by Gerry.
Trading any 1 of the Cs will only weaken the depth in case of injury or non performance. If traded we will need a backup in case of injury.
Jansen a 4 WAR or 2 WAR player? Since I don't understand WAR I don't know the % of D/O value. Cleveland and Houston had very weak offensive Cs but managed very well due to their superb D.
5 more years of Kirk is fine to excellent if his hitting is good and his D is the same or improves due to experience.
It is unclear to me what "the FO wants to win now" specifically means. 1) 2023,24 & 25 is now? OR 2) A long window till 2030?
For #1 I suppose spending to the Cap limit or a bit over seems logical or a possibility. Then rebuild by losing and shedding payroll/bad contracts like the Tulo/Martin situation.
For #2 control spending and "just make the playoffs". This also means that extending Vlad/Bo/Manoah if more Iffy than for #1.
Trading any 1 of the Cs will only weaken the depth in case of injury or non performance. If traded we will need a backup in case of injury.
Jansen a 4 WAR or 2 WAR player? Since I don't understand WAR I don't know the % of D/O value. Cleveland and Houston had very weak offensive Cs but managed very well due to their superb D.
5 more years of Kirk is fine to excellent if his hitting is good and his D is the same or improves due to experience.
It is unclear to me what "the FO wants to win now" specifically means. 1) 2023,24 & 25 is now? OR 2) A long window till 2030?
For #1 I suppose spending to the Cap limit or a bit over seems logical or a possibility. Then rebuild by losing and shedding payroll/bad contracts like the Tulo/Martin situation.
For #2 control spending and "just make the playoffs". This also means that extending Vlad/Bo/Manoah if more Iffy than for #1.
The Jays are looking for long term solutions - to be a contender for a decade+ so through 2030 at least. To do that without going to Dodger/Yankee territory for budgets ($250+ million) they need kids. Thus Jansen, Hernandez, Gurriel are all on the block this winter. The Jays will try to get kids back. The problem is everyone is doing that, but the trick is to have what they want (quality catcher, power bat) and stuff teams might want (1 year OF with power/clutch) to compliment their team in 2023.
Some teams go boom/bust (KC is a prime example) and you want to hit one of them on their boom stretch when they'll trade anything to get into the playoffs or deep into them before the window closes. Other teams go for long term success but don't have big budgets (Cardinals) and the Jays won't be trading with them most likely unless it is a challenge trade (kid for kid, vet for vet). Then there are the big budget wannabe's which are always good to trade with (Texas, Angels) as their GM's are always on the hot seat. The big budget teams (NYY, NYM, LAD) can afford anything but also do have a budget, just a crazy big one.
Arizona is on the upswing - about to start their window (2017 last playoffs, 5 guys under 25 had 75+ PA for them this year though, rotation is old but had a few kids getting their feet wet in 2022) so they might be hard to deal with as they want youth, a challenge trade might be needed involving Kirk or Moreno to get Carroll or Thomas or (a big stretch) Jones (top prospect in minors who hasn't reached yet - like his dad future GG who has power).
Last gasp - Jays took advantage of Oakland last winter as they dumped their last parts, Milwaukee could be at the tail end (6 years of contending, after a 5 year break) thus could be taken advantage of (solid OF, weak DH, weak catchers, might want Jansen - Christian Yelich could fit here LH LF 130 OPS+ lifetime, just 111 last year, owed $26 mil a year for 5 more years - but fell from 7 WAR in 2018 and 2019 to sub 3 each of the past 3 years, their LH closer, Josh Hader had a 75 ERA+ but over 14K/9 and is a free agent post 2023 would be a good mix/match with Romano). Just a couple of thoughts there.
Some teams go boom/bust (KC is a prime example) and you want to hit one of them on their boom stretch when they'll trade anything to get into the playoffs or deep into them before the window closes. Other teams go for long term success but don't have big budgets (Cardinals) and the Jays won't be trading with them most likely unless it is a challenge trade (kid for kid, vet for vet). Then there are the big budget wannabe's which are always good to trade with (Texas, Angels) as their GM's are always on the hot seat. The big budget teams (NYY, NYM, LAD) can afford anything but also do have a budget, just a crazy big one.
Arizona is on the upswing - about to start their window (2017 last playoffs, 5 guys under 25 had 75+ PA for them this year though, rotation is old but had a few kids getting their feet wet in 2022) so they might be hard to deal with as they want youth, a challenge trade might be needed involving Kirk or Moreno to get Carroll or Thomas or (a big stretch) Jones (top prospect in minors who hasn't reached yet - like his dad future GG who has power).
Last gasp - Jays took advantage of Oakland last winter as they dumped their last parts, Milwaukee could be at the tail end (6 years of contending, after a 5 year break) thus could be taken advantage of (solid OF, weak DH, weak catchers, might want Jansen - Christian Yelich could fit here LH LF 130 OPS+ lifetime, just 111 last year, owed $26 mil a year for 5 more years - but fell from 7 WAR in 2018 and 2019 to sub 3 each of the past 3 years, their LH closer, Josh Hader had a 75 ERA+ but over 14K/9 and is a free agent post 2023 would be a good mix/match with Romano). Just a couple of thoughts there.
I voted Moreno because it seems to me he is the most valuable and the Jays need all the value they can muster to trade for good starting pitching. Also, I really just love watching Kirk hit.
A real benefit of trading Kirk is that it not only resolves the catcher logjam, it also opens up the DH spot. Which in turn makes it easier to address the issue of lineup balance - the team can then sign a lefty bat with poor D (i.e. Joc Pederson). Or an all-around good lefty batting outfielder and play the current guys at DH more often.
Nothing, Keep them
Trade Jansen
Trade Kirk
Trade Moreno
I cannot decide.
Trade anyone
Keep Jansen
Keep Kirk
Keep Moreno
I vote keep Moreno.
Trade Jansen
Trade Kirk
Trade Moreno
I cannot decide.
Trade anyone
Keep Jansen
Keep Kirk
Keep Moreno
I vote keep Moreno.
What does FanGraphs project for the 3 of them for 2023?
Jansen: 120 wRC+, Kirk 141 wRC+, Moreno 113 wRC+ - suggesting Moreno is the best to trade on a 'win now' plan.
But if a rookie can do that might it be better to trade Jansen the vet? Basically in the end the Jays will have a solid #1 no matter which of the 3 gets the job and who is traded. If 2 are kept then 2 solid catchers. It is a good problem.
Jansen: 120 wRC+, Kirk 141 wRC+, Moreno 113 wRC+ - suggesting Moreno is the best to trade on a 'win now' plan.
But if a rookie can do that might it be better to trade Jansen the vet? Basically in the end the Jays will have a solid #1 no matter which of the 3 gets the job and who is traded. If 2 are kept then 2 solid catchers. It is a good problem.