Gibbons and Ricciardi
| Both should stay |  39 (13.54%) |
| Both should be out | 160 (55.56%) |
| Ricciardi should be out; Gibbons should stay | 54 (18.75%) |
| Gibbons should be out; Ricciardi should stay | 35 (12.15%) |
288 votes | 18 featured comments
C'mon, Bauxites, make up your mind. Do you expect the big boss to flip a coin twice? :)
I think Godfrey should go talk to Doc and whatever Roy thinks is best for the organization should be done...im only half kidding
Both should stay. And I don't agree with the prevailing opinion that JP is just an "average" GM. His personnel record shows he is above average and about average in the draft. Most of his "failure" seems to lie in his poor 2002 and 2005 drafts. Yes, he shouldn't have drafted Adams and Romero and yes the Jays would have two of Kazmir, Hamels, Loney, Swisher, Francouer, Cain, Tulowitzki, Bruce, or Ellsbury etc, if everything went 100% right. But that doesn't happen with the draft for any team, especially one which isn't allowed to spend over slot. The lack of a legit cleanup hitter is also a little unfair to pin on him because they aren't just lying around to be had. As for Gibbons, he simply hasn't done anything to warrant a firing either. I'm not a big believer in managers being ra-ra motivators who can muster 10-15 wins out of team compared to another manager. It just doesn't work like that in baseball. If they do get fired, it will be done despite the facts. I'm not saying they won't be fired, I'm just saying they don't deserve to be. If they are let go, their replacements better be an upgrade.
I don't really have any rational opinion on this, but as a fan, I am honestly just sick of them both.
Stop dreaming folks, Riccardi has been a disaster.
I'm a little vexed by the whole "Toronto can't compete with the big boys" argument - this lets Riccardi off the hook - just look at Oakland. The fact remains that the man has had seven years to run this team and has yet to deliver a team that has even sniffed the postseason, in the modern era when 4 out of 14 teams make the playoffs.
Riccardi dumped highly paid stars to save money, has seen the payroll increase dramatically and then dropped massive dollars on resigning mediocre to solid players (which of Wells, Rios or Hill has superstar performance on the horizon?) and overpaying free agents (really, Burnett,. Ryan and Thomas at 10 million plus a year? and long term, at that?)
He claimed he was building a team through the draft and the farm system, and has one of the lowest ranked systems in the game, without even one star prospect at AAA ... for how many years running is that?
He's made a few good 'freely available talent' type pickups, but more often his good moves (trading for Overbay, Hinske) are outweighed by the bad (signing them longterm). He has yet to recognize a lost season (eg. each of the last 7) and trade his assets for prospects (anyone remember the much discussed deals for Wells or Lilly that never materialized?)
Put it this way - going forward, in what year are we going to make the playoffs? No chance of us beating Boston - money, leadership and talent, TB has insane young talent on the horizon and New York will always be in the picture with their cash. I can't see us finishing better than 3rd for the next 3-4 years - in our division - forget the wildcard.
Other than drafting Marcum, could someone please point out something really good this man has done?
I'm a little vexed by the whole "Toronto can't compete with the big boys" argument - this lets Riccardi off the hook - just look at Oakland. The fact remains that the man has had seven years to run this team and has yet to deliver a team that has even sniffed the postseason, in the modern era when 4 out of 14 teams make the playoffs.
Riccardi dumped highly paid stars to save money, has seen the payroll increase dramatically and then dropped massive dollars on resigning mediocre to solid players (which of Wells, Rios or Hill has superstar performance on the horizon?) and overpaying free agents (really, Burnett,. Ryan and Thomas at 10 million plus a year? and long term, at that?)
He claimed he was building a team through the draft and the farm system, and has one of the lowest ranked systems in the game, without even one star prospect at AAA ... for how many years running is that?
He's made a few good 'freely available talent' type pickups, but more often his good moves (trading for Overbay, Hinske) are outweighed by the bad (signing them longterm). He has yet to recognize a lost season (eg. each of the last 7) and trade his assets for prospects (anyone remember the much discussed deals for Wells or Lilly that never materialized?)
Put it this way - going forward, in what year are we going to make the playoffs? No chance of us beating Boston - money, leadership and talent, TB has insane young talent on the horizon and New York will always be in the picture with their cash. I can't see us finishing better than 3rd for the next 3-4 years - in our division - forget the wildcard.
Other than drafting Marcum, could someone please point out something really good this man has done?
JP's time should end in the off season unless, of course, the Jays make the playoffs this year.
JP isn't a bad GM, but he is not a great one either. I'd say he's somewhere in the middle of the pack - probably towards the lower end. That's not gonna get it done given the constraints in Toronto/AL East - and has not.
In the last year Gibby has turned me around on him. He seems to deflect a lot of flak for the players, and we rarely hear of clubhouse unrest until situations have already been resolved (Frank Thomas). I"m not saying that's a measure of a good manager per se - but its definately something I think a lot of other teams would be interested in, and I think whereas this time last year I would say that Gibby was done as a manager in the MLB, it seems that now he will probably find employment elsewhere rather easily if and when dismissed.
That said, I suppose giving a new GM carte blanche is necessary - and wouldn't be surprised or really all that sad to see him go. Provided the Jays don't hire Lou Pinella, Tony LaRussa or any of their ilk.
JP isn't a bad GM, but he is not a great one either. I'd say he's somewhere in the middle of the pack - probably towards the lower end. That's not gonna get it done given the constraints in Toronto/AL East - and has not.
In the last year Gibby has turned me around on him. He seems to deflect a lot of flak for the players, and we rarely hear of clubhouse unrest until situations have already been resolved (Frank Thomas). I"m not saying that's a measure of a good manager per se - but its definately something I think a lot of other teams would be interested in, and I think whereas this time last year I would say that Gibby was done as a manager in the MLB, it seems that now he will probably find employment elsewhere rather easily if and when dismissed.
That said, I suppose giving a new GM carte blanche is necessary - and wouldn't be surprised or really all that sad to see him go. Provided the Jays don't hire Lou Pinella, Tony LaRussa or any of their ilk.
Provided the Jays don't hire Lou Pinella, Tony LaRussa or any of their ilk.
Not that we would get either of those managers, but what would be the problem with either of them? Lou's got the Cubs in first place and LaRussa has the rag-tag Cardinals, who nobody expected to win more than about 75 games, playing above .500 and as legitimate playoff contenders. I'd say both have good to very good reputations and resumes and neither is doing anything to disprove that notion.
Not that we would get either of those managers, but what would be the problem with either of them? Lou's got the Cubs in first place and LaRussa has the rag-tag Cardinals, who nobody expected to win more than about 75 games, playing above .500 and as legitimate playoff contenders. I'd say both have good to very good reputations and resumes and neither is doing anything to disprove that notion.
I propose that we start a "suggestion" thread for mid-season replacecments for GM and Manager. I for one would like to know who's available. I'm not even certain what MLB's rules are for hiring other team's employees mid-season.
We could then have two follow-up polls to see who Bauxites prefer from the suggestions.
I voted to keep both ... for now. If this season keeps up as it has gone (Lyle Overbay triple the first hit in the 8th inning - triple? Something weird going on there) they'll be cleared out at seasons end. Who comes in next? No idea. As I said before I'd love to see Kim Ng and Cito Gaston - Ng because she has worked in the largest markets and seems to have the right ideas, Gaston because it would give various sportswriters a complete fit. :)
Well Jayson Stark beat me to it with the list of available Managers and GMs, but we should have a discussion thread on it and then a poll or two.
He has yet to recognize a lost season (eg. each of the last 7) and
trade his assets for prospects (anyone remember the much discussed
deals for Wells or Lilly that never materialized?)
Remember when Ryan Howard was stuck behind Thome in Philadelphia, and the Phillies were interested in Lilly? Anyone remember that? Still makes me crazier than anything.
Remember when Ryan Howard was stuck behind Thome in Philadelphia, and the Phillies were interested in Lilly? Anyone remember that? Still makes me crazier than anything.
Gaston (Manager) and Depodesta (GM).
Those are my choices for their replacements.
Those are my choices for their replacements.
Butterfield (interim), Brad Mills (offseason manager hire), Tony LaCava (GM)
Those may be my choices. Showalter intrigues me as an immediate hire too.
Remember when Ryan Howard was stuck behind Thome in Philadelphia, and the Phillies were interested in Lilly?
Relax, the Phillies weren't that interested in Lilly. No need to torment yourself over that. Anyway, for some reason the words of Oliver Cromwell addressing the Rump Parliament have been rattling through my mind:
You have sat here too long for any good you have been doing lately. Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!
Why would I be thinking that?
Relax, the Phillies weren't that interested in Lilly. No need to torment yourself over that. Anyway, for some reason the words of Oliver Cromwell addressing the Rump Parliament have been rattling through my mind:
You have sat here too long for any good you have been doing lately. Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!
Why would I be thinking that?
Rump Parliament
Bootsy Collins, are you reading? If you are looking for the name of a backup band, our man Magpie is a limitless source of inspiration.
Bootsy Collins, are you reading? If you are looking for the name of a backup band, our man Magpie is a limitless source of inspiration.
My ideal first choice at replacing Riccardi would be to give the job to a council of random fans.
I detest the hubris displayed by fans in thinking how easy it is to create a playoff baseball team (just a few weeks ago, a few posters even here said had they been in charge for the past 7 years the team would have made the playoffs at least once). Put some schmuck in charge, the team will fail, and then hopefully things can continue as normal and my least favorite part of sports will be quelled somewhat.
I'm completely fine with criticizing GMs and their work - don't get me wrong. My problem is when fans start to ignore their largely complete ignorance of the realities of the GM position and all of a sudden have the arrogance to assume they can do a job better than current GMs.
To give a couple of examples - saying Ng would be a great GM candidate and hopefully would do a better job - great suggestion. Saying Riccardi handled the Dunn question wrong - great comment. Criticizing Riccardi for drafting Romero - spot on. Proposing that you would do a better job running the team when you've never been involved in a professional baseball organization or anything even remotely similar - laughably ridiculous.
I know it ain't happening, but that's my wish.
I detest the hubris displayed by fans in thinking how easy it is to create a playoff baseball team (just a few weeks ago, a few posters even here said had they been in charge for the past 7 years the team would have made the playoffs at least once). Put some schmuck in charge, the team will fail, and then hopefully things can continue as normal and my least favorite part of sports will be quelled somewhat.
I'm completely fine with criticizing GMs and their work - don't get me wrong. My problem is when fans start to ignore their largely complete ignorance of the realities of the GM position and all of a sudden have the arrogance to assume they can do a job better than current GMs.
To give a couple of examples - saying Ng would be a great GM candidate and hopefully would do a better job - great suggestion. Saying Riccardi handled the Dunn question wrong - great comment. Criticizing Riccardi for drafting Romero - spot on. Proposing that you would do a better job running the team when you've never been involved in a professional baseball organization or anything even remotely similar - laughably ridiculous.
I know it ain't happening, but that's my wish.