Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
Now one and one is two
Two and two is four
I'm heavy loaded, baby
I'm booked, I gotta go


Once upon a time, kids, there was a third major league. The ball park where the Blue Jays will be spending the weekend must be among the last surviving bits of evidence.


The Federal League started up as an independent minor league in 1913, and the following year they attempted to do what the American League had done just fourteen years earlier - position themselves as a competing major league. To that end, they attempted to sign away players and managers from existing major league teams. Chicago's Federal League entry was called the Whales, and team president Charles Weeghman provided them a brand new brick ball park to play in. They began work on the property on 23 February 1914, and the Whales played their home opener there exactly two months later. Weeghman named the park after himself, as they so often do.

The Federal League folded after just two seasons, but Weeghman promptly bought the Cubs and moved them into his new park for the 1916 season. And they've been there ever since. William Wrigley, the chewing gum magnate (what a concept!) had bought a minority share in 1916 and gradually increased his part of the holdings of Weeghman's other businesses declined. The Wrigley Company, now a subsidiary of Mars Incorporated, is still the world's largest manufacturer and marketer of chewing gum, even if ballplayers have generally preferred bubble gum over the famous Wrigley brands. However John Lennon invariably chewed gum while singing, and Wrigley's Spearmint was apparently his chosen chew.

Wrigley had become the majority owner by 1921, and named the park after himself in 1926. It was the legendary Wild Bill Veeck, the son of longtime Cubs president William Veeck Sr, who came up with the idea of planting ivy on the outfield wall. It's a ground rule double if a ball gets stuck there and the fielder raises his arms in frustration - if he actually tries to locate the ball amongst the vegetation, the play is alive.

The Blue Jays have only visited Wrigley Field twice over the years. They took two of three games back in June 2005. Gustavo Chacin pitched seven shutout innings and Reed Johnson hit a three run homer in a 4-1 victory on a Monday night. Five consecutive eight inning hits broke up a 3-3 tie the following night. The Cubs salvaged the finale when Sergio Mitre and two relievers combined on a three hit shutout, which was required in order to hang a tough loss on Roy Halladay.

The Jays didn't return to the north side until August 2017. They had been playing fairly well, crawling back within range of .500 after going 10-5 to that point in August. The Cubs put an end to that, sweeping the three games at the beginning of a 2-10 stretch for that ill-fated crew. Jake Arrieta beat J.A. Happ in the opener, which also saw Tim Mayza allow the first runs of his career in his third appearance on Javier Baez's two run homer. The Cubs took the next game 4-3, and rallied from a 5-3 deficit in a bizarre bottom of the tenth inning to take the finale and pull off the sweep. Roberto Osuna struck out Kyle Schwarber, but he reached first on a wild pitch. Ben Zobrist singled Schwarber to third, and he scored on another wild pitch. Anthony Rizzo grounded out, and Osuna struck out Baez - but he took first on the third wild pitch of the inning. Baez stole second, and Osuna hit Jason Heyward with a pitch to load the bases. Alex Avila's single then plated the tying and winning runs. Miguel Montero was Osuna's catcher that day - Rafael Lopez was also seen behind the plate that weekend. Also getting into the games for Toronto were such immortal Blue Jays as Rob Refsnyder, Nori Aoki, Nick Tepesch, and Matt Dermody.

******************************

By my count, Will Wagner is the 28th Blue Jay whose father also played in the majors. I think I've got everyone, but I thought I had everyone when I'd only found 25 of them. I'm not counting Bobby Mattick and Mel Queen Jr, also the sons of major leaguers, who both wore the uniform with distinction. Neither actually played for the Blue Jays, who didn't exist during their playing days.

The first generation has so far given us two Hall of Fame players: Craig Biggio and Vladimir Guerrero. Billy Wagner missed by just five votes last time, so he'll probably make it on his next (and last) chance. Jose Cruz was a tremendous player, but his greatness is largely forgotten today, and he looks like a long shot to me.

The second generation has given us one Hall of Famer so far (Roberto Alomar) - most of the others have already removed themselves from consideration. Of those still active, I will say with some confidence that Daulton Varsho, Will Wagner, Mark Leiter Jr, and Cavan Biggio are not going to play their way into Cooperstown. Whether Vladimir Jr and Bo Bichette do or do not still remains to be seen. It's always unlikely, but for them it's still possible.

We shall rank them by Collective WAR. While I have long been wondering what WAR is good for, I no longer believe the correct answer is "Absolutely Nothing." No, it was practically custom-made for this type of silly exercise.

1. Guerrero
79.2 - (Vladimir 59.5, Vladimir Jr 19.7)
  Vladdy's father was a great player obviously. He was a truly strange and memorable one as well. He didn't really have a baseball player's body. He looked a little like an NBA forward, with very long arms and legs and huge feet and hands, and there was just something weird about how all those parts had been put together. He's the only major league player who's ever reminded me of one of those creatures from Avatar. He played like someone playing a game very like baseball, but slightly different somehow, as if he'd come from some different sporting discipline - he hit like one of those great West Indian cricketers, viciously attacking any baseball close enough to wave at with his bat. He threw from right field like an Olympic javelin champion, hurling mighty long distance missiles. He never threw the baseball -it was always a heave. One of a kind.

2. Alomar 77.5 - (Sandy 10.5, Roberto 67.0)
Roberto's father was a skinny little defensive whiz, who played for fifteen seasons. He came up as a shortstop with the Braves, and had an eight year run as a regular playing second base in the AL. He was a durable player, and a very good base stealer, which must be why he spent most of his career hitting leadoff with his career .290 On Base Average. He didn't take a walk, he had no power whatsoever, and he might hit .260 if he was having a good year.

3. Cruz 74.0 - (Jose 54.4, Jose Jr 19.6)
Junior was a good player, but his father was a special player, one of the best hitters in the National League for almost ten years, who was also capable of stealing as many as 40 bases in a season. The Astrodome managed to disguise just how good he was for most of his career. In 1983-84, in his 160 road games, Cruz hit .334 and slugged .519 with 23 HRs - but then he went home to Houston and hit .294, slugged .401, and hit just 3 HRs. That's what the Astrodome did to people. If he'd spent his prime in Boston, I bet he'd have hit .300 lifetime with at least 2500 hits. We'll just notice here that on the career WAR leaderboard, Jose Cruz can be found right in between a pair of Hall of Fame outfielders (Joe Medwick and Sam Rice)

4. Biggio 72.5 - (Craig 65.5, Cavan 7.0)
I think we're all pulling for Cavan, whose career may be on life support at the moment. Craig Biggio went to his first All-Star game in 1991, as a catcher - he was back the following year as a second baseman, which remains one of the strangest things I've ever seen. Think about it. You think right field to third base doesn't work very often? Has catcher to second base ever worked? Has it ever even been tried, apart from this one occasion? Biggio had never played the position - he'd played some shortstop in high school and a bit of outfield when he wasn't catching. What a thing to try, what a thing to actually make work. Art Howe was the manager responsible - he thought the strain of catching would wear Biggio down, and take away his speed. He was also worried about Biggio - who was not a big person - getting pulverized in a collision at the plate. This mad idea worked brilliantly, of course, and after eleven outstanding seasons in the infield, Biggio moved to centre field when the Astros signed Jeff Kent. Catcher to second base to centre field - it's as if the guy was getting faster as he got older. Bill James argues in his Historical Abstract that Biggio was the best ball player of the 90s (non-Bonds division) - in other words, that he was better than Griffey.

5. Stottlemyre 61.7 - (Mel 40.7, Todd 21.0)
You remember Todd, I trust - fiery, intense, emotional Todd. His dad wasn't like that at all - a calm, cool sinker baller who had the misfortune of being the Yankees' best player during the dismal CBS years. He spent the prime of his career during the second Dead Ball Era, but he wasn't the type of pitcher who was helped much by the inflated strike zone of the mid 60s. He wasn't a hard thrower with control issues. He didn't strike out many, but he didn't walk many, he kept the ball in the park and got a million ground balls, and was dependably one of the best and most reliable starters in the league. Stottlemyre threw across his body, and his shoulder was bothering him for his last few seasons, before his rotator cuff finally gave out at age 32, back when rotator cuff injuries were career-enders. He was a horse until then, never missing a start, never pitching less than 250 innings in any of his full seasons.

6. McRae 42.1 - (Hal 27.9, Brian 14.3)
Brian was a pretty good centre fielder but he just didn't hit quite enough to be a regular outfielder. Almost, but not quite. He finished his career with the 1999 Blue Jays. His dad was a tremendous infield prospect with the Reds until he suffered a serious leg injury (multiple fractures) in a home plate collision playing winter ball. He lost much of his quickness, and after trying him in the outfield, the Reds simply gave and traded him to Kansas City. By his second year there he was playing mostly at DH, but he spent 15 years with the Royals, hitting .293/.356/.458. He was by far the most aggressive baserunner I have ever seen in my life, possibly seeking revenge for his own career-changing injury (well, it's a theory!). He destroyed middle infielders. They have rules now forbidding the things he did. His wipeout of Willie Randolph in the 1977 ALCS is probably the most famous, but you really should check out his full body block on Dick Green in the 1972 World Series.

7. Speier 38.3 - (Chris 30.6, Justin 7.7)
Justin had three pretty good seasons in the Toronto bullpen. His father was an NL shortstop who never quite lived up to his early promise (back problems may have had something to do with that) but still spent 19 years in the majors, most of them as an everyday player, because he was the type of player managers have always loved, especially at shortstop. He was reliable. He had good hands, a good arm, he made all the plays he was supposed to make, and he hit just enough that you could tell yourself he was good enough.

8. Werth 29.0 - (Dennis -0.2, Jayson 29.2)
Jayson got into 41 games over two years as a Blue Jay before being traded to the Dodgers for Jason Frasor. He became a star in Philadelphia, he got paid in Washington, and had himself a nice career. Dennis Werth was actually his step-father (Jayson was born Jayson Gowan) whose MLB days - parts of four seasons with the Yankees and Royals - were already over when he married Jayson's mother. Jayson came up as a catcher, and his step-father worked with him and a pitching machine teaching him the trade. Jayson's grandfather and his uncle, the Schofields, will soon be making their own appearance in this roll call.

9. Wagner 28.2 - (Billy 27.8, Will 0.4)
WAR hates relief pitchers with a fiery passion. But I know I'd rather have had Billy Wagner on my team for all those years than Chris Speier, and I'll bet you would too. Wagner was still very near his peak when he retired - he'd just saved 37 games with an ERA of 1.43, ERA+ of 275 while striking out 13.5 batters per 9. He almost surely could have stuck around long enough to become just the third man to save 500 games (he retired with 422) in which case I think he'd probably be in Cooperstown already.

10. Drabek 27.5 - (Doug 27.6, Kyle -0.1)
Kyle was the prized prospect acquired by Toronto in the Roy Halladay trade. It just didn't work out (8-15, 5.27 over parts of five seasons.) His father was also involved in a big trade - after going 7-8 4.10 as a rookie with the 1986 Yankees, he was sent to Pittsburgh in the Rick Rhoden deal. Drabek soon emerged as Jim Leyland's ace, winning the 1990 Cy Young, and taking some very, very painful post-season defeats. He took a 1-0 loss in the sixth game of the 1991 NLCS, when Olson doubled home Gant in the ninth inning. A year later, he was on the mound for game seven against the Braves - he took a 2-0 lead into the ninth but then he ran out of gas. Jose Lind botched a play in the infield, Stan Belinda couldn't retire Francisco Cabrera, and finally Barry Bonds couldn't throw out Sid Bream. Otherwise the Jays would have played the Pirates in the 1992 Series.

11. Schofield 27.3 - (Dick 8.5, Dick 18.8)
The second Dick Schofield - he wasn't a junior - spent two seasons with the Blue Jays - his 1993 season was ended in May by a badly broken arm, which was why the Tony Fernandez trade was necessary. He had been regarded as great prospect coming up, but he never did hit in the majors. He was (and is) Richard Craig Schofield. His father was John Richard Schofield, who is now listed as "Ducky" in the record books as if we can't tell them apart. Ducky's father, John Schofield (also nicknamed "Ducky") spent ten years as a minor league shortstop - Ducky Jr came up as a teenager with the 1953 Cardinals and went on to play in 19 seasons. He was mostly a utility infielder, although he did spend a few years as the Pirates shortstop after Dick Groat was traded and before Gene Alley came up. His big moment came in 1960. Groat, who would lead the NL in hitting and win the MVP award, had his wrist broken by a pitch in early September. Schofield stepped into the breach and hit .403 (27-67) down the stretch. His firstborn was the former Blue Jay - his second child, daughter Kim, is Jayson Werth's mother.

12. Mayberry 26.5 - (John 25.0, John Jr 1.5)
The Mayberrys, father and son, both played for the Blue Jays, the first such duo in franchise history (shoutout to Doom Service!) Junior spent September 2014 with the Jays - he was a better athlete than his father. He just couldn't hit like him. The original John Mayberry was a great hitting prospect with the Astros, but the Astrodome was about the worst place in the world was a young slugger to establish himself in the majors. After he'd hit .181 in 46 games at age 22, the Astros traded him to Kansas City for a couple of relief pitchers. Royals Stadium was and is a terrible place for a power hitter, but it was much more hospitable than the Astrodome, and Mayberry blossomed into a mighty offensive force with four outstanding seasons. And then he discovered cocaine. Whitey Herzog ran him out of town, selling him to the Blue Jays for a bag of baseballs. Mayberry cleaned up his act, and was a solid citizen and decent player for four years here.

13. Oliver 25.5 - (Bob 4.3, Darren 21.2)
You remember Darren - he spent the last two seasons of his career here. He came up as starter with Texas, moved permanently to the bullpen when he was 35, and had a remarkable closing kick to his career, lowering his ERA five years in a row (from 3.78 to, eventually, 2.06) in his age 36-41 seasons. I had completely forgotten his father, who spent a few years playing first base (mostly) and right field for the Royals and Angels in the early 70s.

14. Bichette 23.1 - (Dante 5.7, Bo 17.4)
You're all familiar with Bo - his dad wasn't chopped liver, although I think he's generally dismissed as a creation of Coors Field. He did put up some pretty flashy numbers (.316/.352/.540) over his seven seasons with the Rockies. He must have had a few hits on the road during those years, dontcha think? Dante was kind of Jesse Barfield lite - the same basic skill set, just at a lower level. He had some home run pop, he struck out a lot, he had a good arm in right field.

15. Segui 22.4 - (Diego 12.0, David 10.4)
David was a weird player - he came up with the Orioles as an offensively challenged defensive whiz. Except his position was first base. He didn't hit much until he was about 28, by which time he was introducing many of his teammates to the wonders of modern chemistry. His father was signed out of Cuba by Cincinnati in 1958, and made it to the majors with Kansas City in 1962. He wasted much of his career working for terrible teams - Kansas City, Washington, the Seattle Pilots. When he finally landed on a good team, with Oakland in 1970, he led the AL in ERA and ERA+ working as a swingman. Diego will be 87 years old on Saturday, and he will forever provide the answer to a fine trivia question. Who was the only man to play for both the Seattle Pilots and the Seattle Mariners? Diego Segui, that's who.

16. Shaw 22.3 - (Jeff 13.9, Travis 8.4)
Travis Shaw spent the COVID season with the Blue Jays - he'd had two excellent years with the Brewers, but something happened to his bat and it never quite came back. His father pitched in the majors for twelves seasons; he was pretty mediocre for the first six (11-25, 4.50) but something clicked when he went to Cincinnati in 1996. He was closing games for them by the following season, and would save 194 games and go to a pair of All-Star games over the next five years for the Reds and Dodgers.

17. Roenicke 17.5 - (Gary 15.4, Josh 2.1)
Josh came to Toronto in the Rolen -Encarnacion trade. He didn't do anything here, but he did manage to give the Rockies a good season out of their pen. His father is remembered for the seven years he spent as the RH half of one of Earl Weaver's most successful platoon arrangements, sharing left field with John Lowenstein from 1979 through 1985.

18. LaRoche 14.2 - (Dave 14.4, Andy -0.2)
Andy played one game as a Blue Jay - he went 0-4 against Texas in June 2013 filling in for an injured Lawrie. It was his last game in the majors. He was a third baseman who hit like a backup shortstop. His brother Adam did much better, playing twelve years before walking away from the game over a dispute with White Sox management. They were the sons of Dave LaRoche, who was generally a pretty good lefty reliever even if he's mostly thought of now as the guy who was willing to throw an eephus pitch - his was known as "La Lob" - in actual game situations.

19. Varsho 13.9 - (Gary -0.5, Daulton 14.4)
Daulton's father was a RH hitting outfielder, who managed to get into eight seasons despite being another guy who hit like a backup infielder - he hit 10 career HRs in almost 600 games. He did have a nice year as a fourth outfielder for the 1991 Pirates.

20. Virgil 8.6 - (Ozzie -0.4, Ozzie Jr 9.0)
Ozzie Jr spent five years as a regular catcher for the Phillies and Braves, and actually went to two All-Star games. Then - I don't know what happened. No one wanted him anymore? The Blue Jays signed him as a free agent midway through the 1989 season, but he spent most of what was left of the season in Syracuse. This was repeated the following year. And then he seems to have retired at age 33. His father, of course, became the first Dominican to play in the majors when he made his debut with the 1956 Giants (he would soon become the first dark-complexioned Detroit Tiger.) Virgil Sr was a third baseman who couldn't hit a lick, but he spent many years coaching in the majors - in particular, Dick Williams brought him along wherever he went.

21. Fletcher
7.6 (Tom 0.0, Darrin 7.6)
I didn't know Darrin Fletcher was the son of a major leaguer. Tom Fletcher was a LH pitcher who had just turned 20 when he was called to the big leagues by the Tigers in September 1962. He made his debut in the eighth inning against the Red Sox, with his team losing 6-2. Fletcher escaped his first inning without allowing a run, despite two walks and a wild pitch. He allowed two more hits in the ninth, but finished the game without allowing a run. And that one game was it, folks - he never pitched in the majors again. It looks like he lost all of 1963 to injury, but he came back and pitched in the minors until 1968 before calling it a career, or having it called for him.

22. Borbon 5.7 - (Pedro 4.9, Pedro Jr 0.8)
Pedro junior spent nine years in the majors as LH reliever of no particular distinction. Three of them were in Toronto: they went bad, decent, traded. All I remember is the walkoff grand slam he gave up to scrappy David Eckstein - Eckstein's second slam of a lost weekend in Anaheim. His father came up with the Angels in 1969 and finished with the Cardinals in 1980 but is mostly remembered for the ten years he spent in Cincinnati. Pedro was the one constant figure, as others came and went around him, in the bullpens that made Sparky Anderson famous as Captain Hook, that helped his Reds win four pennants and two championships.

23. Sprague 4.7 - (Ed -1.0, Ed Jr 5.7)
Ed Jr was part of two Blue Jays championships, once as a backup catcher (who delivered a huge pinch-hit homer) and once as the starting third baseman. Ed Sr was a mediocre RH reliever, a teammate of Borbon Sr for a couple of years.

24. Leiter
4.3 - (Mark 3.8, Mark Jr 0.5)
Mark Jr is pitching for the Yankees right now - he spent a dismal month with the Blue Jays in 2018, missed the following season with TJ surgery, and has since managed to establish himself as a decent relief option. His father is the elder brother of Al Leiter, who had a fine long career with the Yankees, Jays, Marlins, and Mets (and Al's son, of course, is Rangers prospect Jack Leiter.) Mark didn't make it to the majors until he was 27 - he wasn't as good as Al - and ended up pitching for eight teams in eleven seasons

25. Grilli 4.3 - (Steve -0.2, Jason 4.5)
You probably remember Jason - he spent a decade scuffling on the margins, working for Florida, the White Sox, Detroit, Colorado, Texas and losing a year to injury before suddenly emerging as an ace closer with the Pirates at age 34. He was 39 when he came to Toronto, and played a huge role in straightening out the bullpen for the 2016 team. John Gibbons seriously overworked him (Gibby didn't have a lot of options that year), and Grilli fell apart by season's end, and was never the same. He was a lot of fun for a while. His father spent three years as a marginal relief arm for some marginal Detroit teams, but his last game in the majors was the only one he pitched as a Blue Jay, a couple of scoreless innings in 1979.

26. Tolleson
3.5 - (Wayne 2.3, Steve 1.2)
I described Steve as a multi-purpose mediocrity in the 2014 Report Card, one of those guys "who can do pretty much everything, but don't do anything particularly well." I remember he went 4-32 as a pinch hitter. His father was a similar player, who did get a few years as the regular Texas shortstop.

27. Smith 1.8 - (Dwight 2.6, Dwight Jr -0.8)
You remember Dwight Jr, an outfield prospect who actually played rather well in his two trials with the Blue Jays, but they didn't believe in him. His subsequent play in Baltimore suggests they may have been right. His late father was the runner-up in the Rookie of the Year voting in 1989, but had a great deal of trouble approaching that level of performance again. He was a bat off the bench for the Braves 1995 champion.

28. St. Claire 1.1 - (Ebba 0.7, Randy 0.4)
Randy pitched in ten seasons, half of them with Montreal, as a RH reliever of no particular distinction. His career concluded with two outings with the 1994 Jays. His father spent four years as a backup catcher with the Braves and Giants at the beginning of the 1950s.

****************************************************************

Matchups!

Fri 16 Aug - Rodriguez (1-5, 3.60) vs Hendricks (3-10, 6.60)
Sat 17 Aug - Bassittt (9-11, 4.30) vs Steele (3-5, 3.16)
Sun 18 Aug - Francis (5-3, 4.92) vs Imanaga (9-2, 3.16)
Blue Jays at Cubs, August 16-18 (The Son Also Rises) | 83 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Gerry - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 11:06 AM EDT (#451438) #
Seeing the McRae's on the list reminded me of Rodney Mcray who is most famous for running through the outfield wall. I saw on TV that his son Grant just made his MLB debut. Rodney just had a brief major league career so it's up to Grant to get the combination on this list.
Gerry - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 11:11 AM EDT (#451439) #
And I loved the ambiance of Wrigley field both inside and out. I can't say the same for the seats. People were shorter a hundred years ago.
mathesond - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 11:23 AM EDT (#451441) #
John Mayberry the elder was probably my first favourite Blue Jay. I remember him hitting 3HR in a game against the Jays when he was a Royal, and then coming to Toronto the next year, and I figured we had the best power hitter in the game. When I was 10, he came to my tyke league game in Etobicoke, and signed autographs for the kids afterwards.

Mayberry was eventually supplanted by the trio of Moseby, Upshaw and Stieb, but he'll always have a place in the horsehide chamber of my heart.

92-93 - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 11:44 AM EDT (#451442) #
We need more off days, it produces your best work Magpie. Good stuff.
John Northey - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 11:46 AM EDT (#451443) #
A shame Vlad Sr didn't get to play here - he signed but was left in AAA Vegas until he finally just retired (303/314/424 in a year when the Jays had 2 regulars over 100 for OPS+ in Bautista & Encarnacion - 2012).

Ah well. A shame the Jays didn't do a September stunt in 2019 by signing Vlad Sr for a day to play with Vlad Jr.
Mike Green - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 12:40 PM EDT (#451445) #
The Chris Speier defence club represents.  It all starts in 1972.  Speier was 22 years old, and had made a fine debut for the Giants in 1971.  In 1972, he plays 150 games for a bad San Francisco Giants club, plays good defence at shortstop and, hits .269/.361/.400.  BBRef values the season at 6.1 WAR, or somewhere between Alan Trammell's 1983 and 1984 season (Trammell was 25-26 those years).  You can argue about the exact number, and say that Speier's season was only a little better than Trammell's very good 1980 season (4.8 WAR).  In any event, Speier was a well-deserved All-Star and got MVP votes. He was indeed the best shortstop in the National League that year by a country mile.  He was an All-Star again in 1973 and 1974 despite being a below-average hitter.  In 1975, he put up another year not that much different from his excellent 1972- .272/.361/.415, but only played 141 games.  To look at it from another perspective- he had 564 PAs that year, 30 doubles, 5 triples, 10 home runs, 70 walks and 50 strikeouts.  Dave Concepcion was the All-Star starting shortstop; Speier was much the better hitter but a lesser fielder (although above average).   Speier drifts and then settles into a part-time role for his 30s.  He has a surge in his late 30s, with a power spike.  In part-time play from age 36-38, he gets 741 PA, hits 30 doubles and 20 homers, walks 80 times and strikes out 122.  He's still playing good defence and generates 4.7 WAR over those 3 years. 

I'm not saying he had a better career than Billy Wagner, but he was an awfully valuable player at his best.  Bill James was not around yet in the public view to sing his praises. 

The Billy Wagner realism club is taking the day off.  The short version is that while the 28 WAR under-represents his value, he is about as far behind Jose Cruz Sr. as he is ahead of Chris Speier. 
Bid - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#451446) #
Wrigley and Fenway have the same problem: If you're up more than 15 rows you can't follow a fly ball.
Magpie - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#451447) #
I must urge everyone to click on the links in the McRae section. The things they used to just allow!
Magpie - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 01:03 PM EDT (#451449) #
The Chris Speier defence club represents.

I think if Speier was your shortstop today, you'd be looking for an upgrade. But back in his day, someone as good as Chris Speier was the upgrade. After all, if you actually happened to be a good hitter, you couldn't possibly be a shortstop. Aparicio, Concepcion, Belanger - those guys were shortstops!
Mike Green - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 01:14 PM EDT (#451450) #
Speier's 1972 season was better than any of Bo Bichette's. But it is true that the competition was abysmal- Dal Maxvill, Larry Bowa and worse. Much worse.

There were more balls in play in 1972 than now so the cost of a poor defensive shortstop was higher.
Magpie - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 01:31 PM EDT (#451451) #
There were more balls in play in 1972 than now so the cost of a poor defensive shortstop was higher.

There's that - and it's a pretty big deal, because there were many more balls in play - and the game, especially the NL, was full of artificial turf, making defensive mobility essential. (And I also suspect, without ever looking into it, that there weren't quite as many power/flyball pitchers as there were both before and since.)
Glevin - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 01:35 PM EDT (#451452) #
I love needing five different subscriptions to see the Jays games. Good work MLB.
John Northey - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#451458) #
Weird - Rodriguez pitches well, pulled around 75 pitches. Gives up 4 runs in 4 innings, left in after 80 pitches. Weird.
Doom Service - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#451459) #
Nitpick time. Mayberry's can't be the only father-son duo to play for the Blue Jays if the Grilli's did too. Ends nitpick. Don't mean to undermine your overwhelming good work.
Nigel - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#451460) #
We're back to Vladdy and the AAAA guys completely carrying this offence.
Magpie - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 04:31 PM EDT (#451461) #
Mayberry's can't be the only father-son duo to play for the Blue Jays if the Grilli's did too.

Well spotted! I would certainly have picked that nit!
uglyone - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#451462) #
"We're back to Vladdy and the AAAA guys completely carrying this offence."

isn't "Vladdy + AAAA guys" just what our team is now tho
92-93 - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#451463) #
Varsho needs to be a lot smarter there and tag up.
Marc Hulet - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#451464) #
Schneider needs to think again about pulling Springer from leadoff. The one month aberration is over. And I still don't think Loperfido is MLB material right now. Let him get his footing at AAA and then possibly bring him back at some point in September. The Jays gave de los Santos the story that they want to look at other players, so they should do it. Or let Berroa and Barger (who appears to be the new Davis Schneider) play more.
Nigel - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#451465) #
Varsho is fast but I don't think he's actually a very smart baserunner.
John Northey - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#451466) #
WEll, they made it entertaining for those with Apple TV. Sadly couldn't pull it off though. Springer triple in the 9th to tie it up, but no hits from 3/4/5 with Varsho at 2B in the 10th, then Green has nothing. Well, improved odds of a good draft position (yeah, not a good bright side).
Ducey - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#451467) #
"Well, improved odds of a good draft position (yeah, not a good bright side)"

A great bright side. Winning in extras in a meaningless game matters a lot less than where they will draft next year.
ISLAND BOY - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 06:22 PM EDT (#451468) #
Another fact about Wrigley field is that the Cubs shared it with the NFL Bears from 1921 to 1970.

I have a trivia question involving the father/son combos. For a few months at the start of the season last year Bo Bichette was hitting over .330. If he had maintained that average until the end of the season, he and his father Dante, who had seasons of .330 and .341, would have become the second father/son duo to hit over .330 in a season, minimum 200 plate appearances. Who were the first father/son pair to do it?
pooks137 - Friday, August 16 2024 @ 11:19 PM EDT (#451471) #
I ended up finding the answer by eventually finding a father-son list & looking for batting lines semi-randomly.

One half of the answer hit above .330 for Nos Amours & is better known for his achievements on the bench.
mathesond - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 06:01 AM EDT (#451472) #
Could it be the Alous (Moises and I believe Felipe was his father?)
Mike Green - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 08:44 AM EDT (#451474) #
Felipe just missed.  He needed to borrow a hit or two from his brother Matty, who could afford to give it and still hit .330.  Not nice. 
pooks137 - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 08:46 AM EDT (#451475) #
.330 is a very high bar.

According to the >200 PAs qualifier, Moises crossed the threshold 4x.

Alas Papa Felipe came close but 3 points shy, topping out at .327 with the Braves in 1966.
Mike Green - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 08:56 AM EDT (#451476) #
Trivia question.  Which player hit .300 and won the Rookie of the Year award, played for 5 clubs ending with the Blue Jays and had only 1.1 bWAR for his career?  Hint: Alfredo Griffin started his career with the Blue Jays and did accumulate 3.1 bWAR in his long career. 
scottt - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 10:18 AM EDT (#451477) #
Springer should lead the rest of the year.
The Jays aren't fighting for a win or two. On the contrary. Next year should be a different story.

Not sure about Loperfido or Clase but now is the time to carry a struggling bat. No need to play Yo-yo with them.

Is there any point in calling Lukes in September? He's old and doesn't figure on the 40 going forward. Maybe as a reward and a chance to trade him for cash in the winter if he does well?
jerjapan - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 11:31 AM EDT (#451480) #
Agreed Scottt, no point worrying about this year, although I'd be happy to see Springer rested a bit more often. 

For me, you promote Lukes since he's been willing to be a AAAA depth piece for us.  If this were the NHL, he'd be well paid enough in the minors, but this being MLB, his depth role status means he has missed out on MLB playing time, and is now past his prime.
So yeah, give the guy a month of big league paycheques.  The reward for that is the motivation it provides other Buffalo vets, or AAAA guys choosing to play in Buffalo since they try to reward these guys? 


ISLAND BOY - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 11:36 AM EDT (#451481) #
For some reason on your trivia question, Mike, I thought of Eric Hinske, mainly because he won rookie-of-the-year. Of course, looking him up, he had the opposite career path of the player you're looking for. He started with the Jays, played with 7 teams and finished with a WAR of 7.8. The correct answer must be a mediocre to replacement level player.
Chuck - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#451482) #
Which player hit .300 and won the Rookie of the Year award, played for 5 clubs ending with the Blue Jays and had only 1.1 bWAR for his career?

He could have been a member of the Chinese diving team.

Mike Green - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#451484) #
Correct, Chuck. Artistic impression is sadly part of neither the bWAR or fWAR calculation.
ISLAND BOY - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 12:30 PM EDT (#451487) #
Wow, he was rookie-of-the-year? It must have been a down year.

The answer to my trivia question was Tito and Terry Francona, as Pooks figured out.
pooks137 - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 12:52 PM EDT (#451488) #
I had completely forgot about both the player and that somersault.

JA Happ was runner-up for ROY & Andrew McCutchen finished 4th.
Magpie - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#451490) #
Wow, he was rookie-of-the-year?

Me too, although he did have a nice rookie year. (I was thinking - Marty Cordova?)

Surely none of us will ever forget Coghlan's Leap.
Magpie - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#451491) #
Tito and Terry Francona

I had Tito in a Strat-o-Matic set when I was a little kid, and he hit something like .214, so I was never going to think of him!

I looked over his record, and he seems to be one of those hitters who just got killed when they made the enormous strike zone from 1963-68. He was lucky he was still in the game when things returned to normal (and he started hitting again.)
Magpie - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 01:44 PM EDT (#451492) #
is better known for his achievements on the bench.

I read that and thought - he became a judge?
Kelekin - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 02:07 PM EDT (#451493) #
I'm not a big fan of judges. At least, not 6'7" ones in the Bronx.
Nigel - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 02:38 PM EDT (#451494) #
Bassitt doesn’t rely upon “stuff” so maybe this is something and nothing, but Bassitt’s stuff has looked real bad the last three starts.
Petey Baseball - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#451495) #
Nobody going to call out John Schneider on that ridiculous steal sign with Vlad up?
Magpie - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#451496) #
Nobody going to call out John Schneider on that ridiculous steal sign with Vlad up?

I missed the action live, but I was wondering about that. Did they call a double steal, or was Springer operating on his own? Even if it works, Counsell probably just walks Guerrero, although managers always hate to put the lead run on base.
dalimon5 - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 09:55 PM EDT (#451497) #
I just want to say I finally listened to Mark Shapiro's presser from last week and wow...what a fall from where he was in my mind at the beginning. Very disrespectful and short with some of his answers and providing answers that contradicted themselves or were "corporate babble."

greenfrog - Saturday, August 17 2024 @ 10:12 PM EDT (#451498) #
It’s always possible that the team will turn things around in 2025 and have a good season.

But right now it looks as though the front office has failed with respect to the vaunted 2021-2025 window of contention (no division titles; no postseason wins; failure to make the playoffs when they had their best shot at postseason success, in 2021; a last-place finish in 2024, along with the now-worst farm system in the division).

As Passan tactfully said the other day on the Fan 590, nobody is putting the Blue Jays front office on a short list of the best front offices in baseball.

They might actually be a relatively competent front office. Top 20 or top 15, maybe. But I do think, after nine years in office and with the team and farm system ending up where they are currently, the time for executive “learning” is over and it’s time for a new regime.
R Romero Vaughan - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 03:49 AM EDT (#451499) #
I agree with this.

- the team has a record payroll, 2nd highest in the ALE
- rotation salaries this year were about $90m on a pro rated basis
- they have developed no pitchers that have really contributed this yeat
- too many big FA decisions haven't worked - including largest jn team history where no one wanted to go 6y
- system is still bottom 5 POST sell off and worst in ALE
- which front office would you choose right now over this group in the ALE

its just hard to see what BAL and TB have done and think this is a good enough group to hand keys to for a re/set.

At what point is stability just stubbornness?

Wouldn't the money be better spent recruiting a top 5 FO vs a 38 year old lefty masher this offseason
pooks137 - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 04:22 AM EDT (#451500) #
I just want to say I finally listened to Mark Shapiro's presser from last week 

From the clips I saw, I was concerned that Shapiro might attribute too much of the disaster 2024 to the collapse of the bullpen.

The bullpen is league worst presently, but wasn't the main problem in April & May when this team's real problems began.

Pretending that Romano's injury and the implosions of Mayza & Swanson were the main culprits for this team not being good enough is faulty logic.

It risks them going out to sign a few Yimi Garcia types & running the same team out there for 2025.

they have developed no pitchers that have really contributed this year

It's disappointing that the Jays seemingly have zero relief prospects to try out over the last 6 weeks of the season.

The bullpen is just an endless stream of journeymen types playing out the string for a paycheck.

I wasn't heartbroken to see Nate Pearson go. But watching him pitch against the Jays for the Cubs did bring questions to mind why he was dealt when guys like Tommy Nance are on the roster.

dalimon5 - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 06:57 AM EDT (#451501) #
I wonder why the Blue Jays couldn't trade a better package to get Jazz Chisholm Jr from the Marlins.
Glevin - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 08:01 AM EDT (#451502) #
Lack of pitcher development is the single biggest issue this front office has had. (not that previous front offices since the 80s were much better but that's no excuse...) aside from Manoah, they just haven't developed anyone. I'm not talking about front-line starters, I'm talking about any pitching, depth starters, reliable relievers, anything. Even if you want to give them credit for developing Romano, Romano is not an elite reliever, he has been a very good reliever mostly but the type of guy lots of teams develop every few years. Jays have developed hitters decently (Moreno, Kirk, Bo, Schneider, Horwitz, lots of aaa guys who might be major leaguers, etc...) but pitching has been just pathetic.
Mike Green - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 10:02 AM EDT (#451503) #
Pete Walker has been pitching coach for over a decade now.  Like John Schneider, he seems to have a preference for veterans.  In his case, it might be because of bitter experience.  In his first years, the Jays had some excellent young pitchers in the system, most of whom made it to the big club (Sanchez, Osuna, Syndegaard, Stroman would head the list).  They all had their moments, but only Stroman had a good career.   The young pitching talent that the club has drafted in more recent years does seem generally to be not as impressive (with Manoah the obvious exception). 
Poor pitching drafts, uninspired development and a major league pitching coach with a preference for veterans is all going to add up to problems. 

Walker has stuck with the idea that he wants all his starters to be starters all the way through with no time in the major league bullpen to get acclimated.  He wasn't a fan of the opener, and pretty clearly believes that starters should go deep into games.  Old school.  The result is that the club has spent an awful lot of money on free agent pitchers, and the pen has been weaker than it needs to be, in my view.  I reiterate though that there is a lot more to this than Pete Walker. 

Nigel - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#451504) #
I think the likelihood of a couple of Yimi Garcia type signings, one DH/LF bat and running it back is a very very highly probable offseason outcome.

I agree with all of these comments about the pitching. Lost from public critique because there have been other more glaring issues, is that they have received slightly below average results (which is flattering to them due to the fabulous team defense) from their high priced free agent starters.
Nigel - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 10:43 AM EDT (#451505) #
I’ll add that the most objectionable part of Shapiro blaming the team’s issues on the health of the bullpen is that relative to most other contenders the Jays have had remarkable health from their pitching staff the last few years. The Yankees, Astros and Rays, for example, must have died laughing at those comments. If your plan for success requires your top 4 starters and 3-4 highest leverage relievers to be healthy then you have no plan Mr Shapiro.
scottt - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 11:57 AM EDT (#451506) #
I will argue that not making the playoffs in 21 was a bigger failure than 24. 21 left the Jays in a poor position to build from. The failure of 21 was certainly due to the bullpen. The offense in 21 was good enough to go all the way.

Talking about injuries in the pen and having to DFA Mayza is the right thing to do. Don't expect the front office to point out that Springer is aging and that Bichette disappeared. Not going to happen.

The pen needs to have some guys with options. Pearson wasn't good enough once he ran out of options. It's telling that he brought out being optioned with a 0 ERA.

The Jays have very interesting relievers in Fluharty, Brock and maybe Pardinho. However, relievers are not hitters. There's no need to bring a reliever up to have a look. It's more important to preserve their options.

The best way to improve the rotation is to improve the bullpen.

People here keep talking about rebuilding but can't stand losing games. A rebuilding team would be losing 8 to 1 most night.
John Northey - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#451509) #
Looking on Twitter and other sites you can see the more casual fan hates losing. They don't care one bit about prospects, the future, any of that. They just want to see the team win and be fun.

I'm guessing Rogers knows this and will thus push for Vlad to be signed long term this winter, and for Shapiro to improve the team overall so the hype machine can get into full gear. Guys like Clase could help (speed demons are always fun to watch), as does Varsho (defense also fun to watch). But there need more to sell. Thus why they went hard after Ohtani (maybe too hard, as they fell apart - doing nothing - for awhile after they lost him).

What names are out there that could help the hype this winter? Soto of course but he is a $500 mil risk - the Yankees won't go that high (they didn't for Judge) but unlike Judge I don't see Soto taking the 2nd or 3rd most cash to stay anywhere. Corbin Burnes doesn't fit (pitcher, already have tons invested there), Anthony Santander would be nice (see him as second tier), Tyler O’Neill is also tier 2 but has the Canadian aspect, Alex Bregman fills in the 3B hole but I fear going to the Houston free agents again (probably would demand too many years), Max Scherzer is a name near the end of his career but safe to say he goes to the city he wants (contender near his home in Texas). Pete Alonso is a 1B thus no spot for him (assuming Vlad is signed long term). Willy Adames is a quality SS but I don't see the Jays signing one and trading Bo. Teoscar Hernández coming back would be a way to make casual fans happy - I could see him as a backup to a failed Soto attempted signing. Same with Danny Jansen and/or Kikuchi.

No idea who is on the trade list for other clubs - that tends to shift as the offseason goes along. I expect free agency to determine who the Jays get for LF/3B/DH and the pen. The pen is a dogs breakfast and no obvious solution exists for it. Chris Martin is an older free agent (entering age 39 season) who is a solid setup man and should be under $10 mil to sign. Kirby Yates has had an excellent year for Texas (21-0 in Sv-Bl) at age 37 and could be expensive but not too long term as well. Garcia will be out there, among many other tempting targets. As long as you avoid long term (over 3 year) deals the pen can be restocked and, if the team sucks, easily traded mid-season if any are pitching well (ala Garcia this year).
pooks137 - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 01:33 PM EDT (#451510) #
The Jays have very interesting relievers in Fluharty, Brock and maybe Pardinho. However, relievers are not hitters. There's no need to bring a reliever up to have a look. It's more important to preserve their options.

It's a bold assertion that relievers don't need MLB experience to be relied upon in the future. I'm not sure that's true or what the basis of this claim would be.

I think the more compelling argument is probably more careful management of offseason 40 man spots. Even though the Jays still have lots of chaff they can cut, the returning injured players have to be returned to the 40-man after the WS & take up space all winter until spring.

There’s also the fact that I believe the team is too cautious with adding prospects to the 40 to avoid the Rule 5. Leo Jimenez is already out of options next year and is only here because Bo is hurt. Hagen Danner has taken up a spot for 3 years and is nowhere near contributing.

ISLAND BOY - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#451512) #
Joey Loperfido and Davis Schneider are both in the lineup today and I feel both would be better off in AAA right now to get their confidence back.
ISLAND BOY - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#451513) #
Of course, a few minutes after I post this Loperfido hits a home run.
Glevin - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#451515) #
Going into today, Schneider had a 36 WRC+ and Loperfido had a 27 WRC+ since July 1st.
Marc Hulet - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#451516) #
I would argue Danner is closer to helping than you think. He just needs to have a healthy run. He was basically MLB ready in 2023 and then hasn't been able.to stay healthy. You don't give up on that kind of arm. On the flip side, Fluharty sits around 89 mph and is a one-inning guy that relies on deception and changing speeds. Brock has shown an upper 90s fastball and above-average slider in the past but was most 93-94 mph with poor command earlier this year before getting hurt (for most of the year). Same with Cooke... velo down and hurt.
Nigel - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 03:41 PM EDT (#451517) #
Bowden Francis - Staff Ace and 2025 Opening Day starter.
Ducey - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#451518) #
Schneider looks like his struggles are really impacting his confidence.

He should be able to at least be a lefty killer, but he is only hitting .189 vs them.

Well past the time for him to be sent down.
Shoeless Joe - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 04:24 PM EDT (#451519) #
Will Wagner should be playing everyday.
Nigel - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#451520) #
A very entertaining game. Francis and the team defence were fantastic.
Michael - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 05:06 PM EDT (#451521) #
The Jays should get some small amount of development credit (or at least some credit overall) for Bowden Francis. It isn't clear if he's really a quality starter, but he sure looked good today and so far in his short ML career. Milwaukee drafted him in 2017, but the Jays traded for him in 2021 (the trade of Rowdy Tellez for Trevor Richards and Bowden Francis), and Francis was just seeing his first AAA pitching just before the trade. He got into one game as fringe bullpen in 2022, up and down in the bullpen last year, and now 7 GS in 20 G this year. He now has just over 100 IP in the majors in his career with a 1.03 WHIP and 3.40 ERA overall (as a starter 0.95 WHIP/4.38 ERA). The Jays still have 2 more years of pre-arb time for him after this year, so cost control.

This was the Jays first 1-0 win of the season which seems kind of surprising to be so late in the season.
Gerry - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#451523) #
I found it interesting that the Jays used Will Wagner as a defensive replacement for Spencer Horwitz in the ninth inning.
hypobole - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#451525) #
Before we leave the north side, read a quiz last week. Who has won the most batting titles but isn't in the HOF? Hint: Won at least one as a Cub.
greenfrog - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 06:34 PM EDT (#451526) #
I agree with that, Michael. Maybe Francis will be a productive part of the pitching staff next year (as a SP or swingman).
John Northey - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 06:34 PM EDT (#451527) #
hypobole - was it Mark Grace? I remember him being a high average guy but was stuck in the NL during Tony Gwynn's career so maybe not.
Magpie - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#451528) #
Bill Madlock won - was it four? - and I think two were with the Cubs.
hypobole - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#451529) #
Grace's MLB career started immediately after the quiz answer's ended.
greenfrog - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#451530) #
This is what I wrote about Francis in mid-March 2024: "Deploying Francis as the #5 SP instead of Manoah could be a lot less stressful for the team, if he can maintain his low walk rate from 2023 and this spring. I could see him producing a lot of workmanlike 5-6 IP outings with a respectable ERA. He'll get hit hard at times, but I'm guessing his overall numbers would be end up being pretty solid."

Francis now has a 4.38 ERA (4.13 xFIP) in 63.2 innings in 2024. Per 9IP, he has struck out 8.2 and walked 2.26. Very good. His main issue has been with the long ball (12 HR allowed).
hypobole - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#451531) #
Yup, Madlock 2 with the Cubs, 2 with the Pirates.
John Northey - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 06:56 PM EDT (#451532) #
Frances has to be getting his name penciled in for 2025 now. Not a lock by any stretch but 4/5 slots are open with Frances, Manoah, and Yariel Rodríguez (104 ERA+ so far) the leading contenders along with Jake Bloss (0.00 ERA in Buffalo in 6 2/3 IP so far, 1.49 ERA in the minors this year total).

I'm feeling better about 2025 by the day - 4 guys who could be legit strong 4/5 guys with the others being 6/7. Wagner looking good so far (small sample size but solid minor league track record), Loperfido giving us some hope that he mixed with Schneider might cover LF in a decent way. 3B...sigh. Barger has flashes and a killer arm, Clement has looked good but has zero patience at the plate. Wonder if Orelvis Martinez was any good there (124 games the most he played anywhere outside of SS). Hmm... 2025 could be like the Bobby Cox era - platoons all over - 3B Barger/Martinez, LF Loperfido/Schneider, 2B Wagner/(Martinez or Schneider), DH could be a mix-match of all kinds of guys. Not comfortable with that 3B paring right now, maybe Barger shows more, maybe Martinez comes back from his 80 games off fresh and ready to go without fertility meds. We will see I guess. The pen has done better lately it seems, but is still very, very scary. Either build a lineup that can score 10 a game often, or fix the pen, or push starters to get 7/8 innings everyday (Frances twice in a row now, same for Gausman, Bassitt 4 of 25 games did it so far, Berrios 3 of his last 4 starts, Rodriguez has yet to get 7 innings in but seems nearly ready to once his pitch limit is expanded).
scottt - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#451533) #
The splitter has worked really well for Francis. Also, he seems to be commending his fastball much better now. He's one of the few Jays who can throw high fastballs consistently. Today, the ball wasn't carrying and he got lots of pop ups
Nigel - Sunday, August 18 2024 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#451535) #
As I said the other day I listened to an Eno Sarris interview and he was a big fan of Francis (post development of the splitter). The early data was that hitters were having real trouble discerning between the FB and splitter because, apparently somewhat unusually, Francis’ release point for the two piitches is repeatably identical. This also aligned with some anecdotal commentary from some opposing hitters. He wasn’t as kind to Rodriguez:)
scottt - Monday, August 19 2024 @ 10:07 AM EDT (#451543) #
I see more ramblings about Bichette not interested in staying after 25. He's going to be in the trade rumors all winter.
ISLAND BOY - Monday, August 19 2024 @ 10:40 AM EDT (#451544) #
Bob Nightingale reported that the Jays will be looking to move Bichette this winter because he doesn't want to stay in Toronto. Of course, not many people put stock in what Nightingale says.
scottt - Monday, August 19 2024 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#451545) #
Brent Honeywell Jr is back on waivers. Low ERA, but low strike outs, which means low FIP. He throws an unusual mix of half 4 seamers, quarter sliders, quarter screw balls.
John Northey - Monday, August 19 2024 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#451547) #
On BlueSky Mike Wilner responded that Manoah is out until at least the All-Star break, ugh but useful like Ryu was in '23 (equivalent of a mid-season trade for a starting pitcher). So do you sign Kikuchi or another starter to lock up a strong top 4 and have Francis, Bloss, & Rodriguez fight it out for the 5th slot or save the $20+ million and spend it on improving 3B/LF/bullpen?

Right now #1 has to be the bullpen, but 3B is a close second unless Barger starts to hit. ZiPS has Barger as a 1.2 fWAR player with a 306 wOBA next year, Clement as a 1.1/282 in 2025 (decent backups but nothing more). Orelvis Martinez could be a piece but lord knows what to expect going forward after the PED suspension. Vlad at 3B is not a real solution. No one else in the high minors looks like a realistic option in 2025 either. I don't see the Jays getting Alex Bregman to sign either - projected as a 3.6 fWAR player in '25, or a reunion with Chapman (3.0 fWAR projection for '25) unless they overpay (ala Springer with the extra year). Ha-Seong Kim is an option, but he might be mad still over the Jays backing out at the last minute when they tried to sign him years ago. Eugenio Suárez might be a free agent and would be affordable (team option is $15 mil/$2 mil buyout) but strikes out a LOT (over 200 times last year).

Any thoughts on who can cover 3B next year? If the year is a write off then Barger might as well be left there with Orelvis mixed in.
bpoz - Monday, August 19 2024 @ 02:29 PM EDT (#451551) #
Barger is a LHH who is supposed to have power and a V strong arm. If he can get 100ABs more this year then the sample size has some meaning. I would look for bb/k ratio and power. He needs to be reliable at D so as to not hurt the team. Clement has good D for 2B/3B but cannot match Barger's power. We definitely need to score runs.

I expect Roden & Kasevich to come up quite early next year. They are probably better/equal to our tryout guys this year. Competition is a good thing.

We could/should have 6 SPs for next year. Gausman, Berrios, Bassit, Rodriguez, Francis and Bloss. Before Manoah returns someone from AA/AAA could be challenging our 13+4 pitching staff. I mean like C Dallas, T Wallace, Macko and K Rojas if he is healthy and the real deal.
hypobole - Monday, August 19 2024 @ 02:52 PM EDT (#451554) #
Marlins turned an 8-9-4-2 double play yesterday, apparently the 1st since 1900. The 4 in that play was Otto Lopez, who hasn't hit a lick, but has arguably been as good a defensive 2nd baseman as anyone in baseball - 12 OAA in under 600 innings. Yeah, that Otto Lopez. I can't remember ever hearing him praised for his defensive play.
scottt - Monday, August 19 2024 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#451556) #
I kinda remember Otto Lopez playing SS for team Canada.
Mike Green - Monday, August 19 2024 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#451577) #
Otto Lopez a good defender in the infield, but can't hit? As the wise man said, youneverknow. But that is very strange. Skills lost and found.
scottt - Monday, August 19 2024 @ 10:39 PM EDT (#451580) #
He only had 11 PA with the Jays, so we never found out.
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