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A homestand, featuring a good team, a bad team, and the Blue Jays. The Orioles, currently locked in a battle for the division lead with the Yankees, are up first.


The Story So Far:

The teams first met in the middle of May. The Orioles had come out of the gate on fire, although their 26-13 record just barely had them ahead of the Yankees. The Jays meanwhile had begun to dig themselves a hole - they went into Baltimore having lost 12 of 17 and tumbling into last place.

Monday 13 May: Toronto 3 Baltimore 2 - A fine pitcher's duel. Jose Berrios limited the Orioles to just three hits over seven innings. Two of those hits were homers off the bat of Adley Rutschman, and Corbin Burnes turned a 2-1 lead over to his bullpen. They couldn't hold it - Varsho homered off Cano to tie the game in the eighth, and his groundout scored the Zombie Runner with the winning run in the tenth. Jordan Romano worked the final two innings without allowing a hit.

Tuesday 14 May: It rained. They played the make-=up game last week.

Wednesday 15 May: Toronto 2 Baltimore 3 - Another well-pitched game. Jordan Westburg led off the Baltimore first with a homer off Yusei Kikuchi, but a Bichette double off Bradish scored Springer and Guerrero to give the Jays a 2-1 lead in the third. And it stayed that way, as each team got scoreless work from four relievers. That took us to the bottom of the ninth, and Toronto's fifth reliever was Jordan Romano, who allowed a leadoff single to Westburg and a walk-off homer to Rutschman. The winning team went 0-10 with runners in scoring position and stranded 11 men on base.

They met again three weeks later in Toronto. Despite their shiny 37-20 record, the Orioles had slipped three games behind the Yankees. The Blue Jays had just won five of six and were crawling back towards .500.

Monday 3 June: Baltimore 7 Toronto 2 - The Orioles jumped on Kevin Gausman, with a pair of two-run homers from Santander and Hays giving them a 5-1 lead in the fourth inning. Grayson Rodriguez scattered seven hits, one of them a Guerrero homer.

Tuesday 4 June: Baltimore 10 Toronto 1 - Alek Manoah had just gone on the IL, so Trevor Richards started against Orioles ace Corbin Burnes. Richards delivered two scoreless innings, and then everything went to hell. Cabrera gave the Orioles a walk and a hit batter. Rutschman singled in one run and the call went out for Bowden Francis. Ryan Mountcastle greeted him with a three run homer and it was suddenly 4-0. Two innings later, they did it again. Another RBI single from Rutschman, another homer from Mountcastle. The Jays could only muster a late homer from Springer.

Wednesday 5 June: Baltimore 2 Toronto 3 - The Orioles jumped out to a 2-0 lead in the second on a Santander homer, and a Urias double to score Mullins. The Jays promptly tied it up in their half - Springer walked, Turner doubled and both eventually scored on a Kirk sac fly and Kiner-Falefa single. Then no one could score for the longest while. The Jays best chance came in the sixth, when Bichette led off with a double - he somehow failed to score on Kirk's two out single. But they won in the ninth. Turner led off with a single, and Biggio ran for him. Kimbrel picked him off, but the ball got away, and Biggio took second, from where he scored the winning run on Kiner-Falefa's single.

Thursday 6 June: Baltimore 5 Toronto 6 - The Jays salvaged the series split behind a strong outing from Kikuchi. Guerrero's three run homer in the third staked him to an early lead, and Kikuchi exited after six with a 6-1 lead. The bullpen made it a little too interesting - Rutschman hit a two-run homer off Pop in the eighth, and O'Hearn hit a two-run homer off Garcia in the ninth.

Which brings us to last week. By which time the Orioles had reclaimed their spot atop the AL East, and the Jays were being sold for parts.

Monday July 29 (Game One): Toronto 5 Baltimore 11 - Yariel Rodriguez needed a GPS to find home plate. He didn't have one. He walked the first three hitters he saw, then gave up an RBI single to Mountcastle. But a K and a groundout had him one out away from escape when - catcher's interference on Kirk and yet another walk, this time with the bases loaded. He then capped his afternoon by hitting James McCann in the face with a fastball. It was 7-0 before the Jays showed signs of life, in the form of Addison Barger's three run homer in the seventh. The Orioles instantly tacked on another three runs against the other Y. Rodriguez to put an end to that nonsense.

Monday July 29 (Game Two): Toronto 8 Baltinore 4 - A see-saw affair for a while - the Jays scored against Povich in the first on Clement's double scoring Guerrero, so the Orioles scored against Francis in their half on a Cowser homer. The Jays scored twice against Povich in the second. Berroa singled to score Kiermaier, who had two hits in his last game as a Blue Jay. Berroa then stole second, took third on an error and scored on a groundout. So the Orioles responded with two in their half, an O'Hearn double and a Westburg homer. But Francis settled in after that and the Jays kept scoring. Three Baltimore errors didn't hurt. Guerrero had four hits, all for extra bases - a homer and three doubles.

Tuesday July 30: Toronto 2 Baltimore 6 - Chris Bassitt was a little too hittable on a day when he was matched with Burnes. Santander's first inning double scored Henderson, and things got really bad in the third. Urias led off with a homer, and singles from Cowser, Rutschman, and Henderson loaded the bases. The old 1-2-3 DP gave Bassitt a chance to escape, but O'Hearn followed with a two-run single and it was 4-0, and Burnes allowed just four hits while pitching into the seventh.

Wednesday July 31: Toronto 4 Baltimore 10 - Could the Jays escape Charm City with a split? They could not. The Orioles scored against Pablo Espino in each of the first three innings. The Jays kept responding, one run at a time, and were only trailing 4-3 when Yerry Rodriguez relieved Espino in the fifth. He loaded the bases on two walks and a hit batter, and then served up Jackson Holliday's first major league homer. With the bases loaded. Luis De Los Santos made his MLB debut as a defensive replacement.

Matchups

Tue 6 Aug - G. Rodriguez (13-4, 3.86) vs Bassitt (8-10, 4.02)
Wed 7 Aug - Rogers (2-10, 4.76) vs Francis (4-3, 5.64)
Thu 8 Aug - Kremer (4-8, 4.39) vs Gausman (9-8, 4.56)

Baltimore at Toronto, August 6-8 | 80 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
John Northey - Tuesday, August 06 2024 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#451082) #
Funny how the game is no longer featured on Sportsnet Now. Interesting that the park looks packed tonight though, with lots of empty seats behind home plate in the super-expensive zone.
Mike Green - Tuesday, August 06 2024 @ 08:17 PM EDT (#451084) #
It would be a particularly good idea for the Blue Jay offence to get Bassitt a run or two right here.
Super Bluto - Tuesday, August 06 2024 @ 08:41 PM EDT (#451086) #
Eric Smith is not an ideal play-by-play guy.
Gerry - Tuesday, August 06 2024 @ 09:17 PM EDT (#451087) #
I agree super bluto. I was listening to him over the weekend and I thought the same. A few times he was waffling on about something and he would say something along these lines "that pitch is a ball and the pitch he threw before that was a strike."

He needs to do play by play not skip a play, two plays.
92-93 - Tuesday, August 06 2024 @ 09:40 PM EDT (#451088) #
Great team win. Everyone contributed something, even Springer with his commendation of Varsho's impressive catch.
Ducey - Tuesday, August 06 2024 @ 09:56 PM EDT (#451089) #
I'm kinda liking Ben Shulman play by play. Better than earlier in the season.
99BlueJaysWay - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 12:02 AM EDT (#451090) #
I agree that Ben does a good job. I miss Ben Wagner too though.
Ducey - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 01:34 AM EDT (#451091) #
The Blue Jays official site says Bo is likely to return "late August". So maybe he gets 30 games. Not a lot of time to build his value back up.

I have to say I am not missing him. Watching Ernie, Vlad and the kids is more fun.
scottt - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 06:40 AM EDT (#451092) #
This one is mostly on Bassitt.
Substract Bassitt and Green and the impact would be felt right away.

ISLAND BOY - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 07:03 AM EDT (#451093) #
Why did Vlad get drilled in the back last night? Was it a carry-over from the last series with Baltimore? John Schneider thought it was intentional and even though I don't particularly like him as a manager, I do admire the way he is quick to stick up for his players.
Gerry - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 07:06 AM EDT (#451094) #
In the last series Jordan Westburg's hand was broken when hit by a pitch by the Jays, Cabrera I believe.

Guerrero getting hit was a payback.
Chuck - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 07:09 AM EDT (#451095) #
Eric Smith is not an ideal play-by-play guy.

I have caught him recently and agree. His attitude is that he is slumming doing the PBP job. That is not a good look. Surely there are others who would do the job with more integrity.

As for the young Shulman, he has improved by trying less hard to impress. I'm sure father and son envision a formal torch passing at some point in the future. Dad is still a young man, though, so that could be a while.

hypobole - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 08:01 AM EDT (#451096) #
In the last series Jordan Westburg's hand was broken when hit by a pitch by the Jays, Cabrera I believe.

It was Yerry Rodriguez.
SK in NJ - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 08:06 AM EDT (#451097) #
The Jays are way more watchable now than they were earlier in the season. It's going to be hard to give all the kids playing time, and even harder for John Schneider who I'm sure is waiting for any veteran reinforcement he can get (Bo, Votto), but getting as many young players into games the rest of the way should be the goal. The team has to start developing core players again, and while the upside of these young players isn't super high, you still need to see what they have and hope to get lucky on a couple. Would have been nice to have Orelvis in the lineup these next 2 months.
scottt - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 08:39 AM EDT (#451098) #
You can't consider a hit on the hand intentional.
I can see hitting Vlad instead of walking him, but don't get into an habit of doing that.
I was hoping to lose this series, but I just changed my mind.

I saw a partisan media article complaining about the automatic intentional walk.
Sorry, you can't force teams to pitch to hot hitters.

It's nice to see Barger going out of the zone to score some runs.
That's what guys like Biggio were unable to do.

scottt - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 10:19 AM EDT (#451101) #
It's not bad, but they really need a clean up bat who hits behind Vlad.

Springer
Horwitz
Vlad
(big bat), preferably left
right bat, Bichette, Kirk, Clement, Schneider
Varsho


Tons of options for the bottom of the lineup, including Barger and Loperfido.

It's hard to assess young hitters.
Every opponents seem to do the same thing.
Check if hey can hit the fastball high and low, than check if they chase or fail to protect away.
Then check if they can hit breaking balls.

It takes several weeks for a hitter to be fully tested.
Much longer is the hitter fails somewhere.

Conversely, the Jays pitchers often fail to attack hitter where they are vulnerable.
Pitch Soto low, Judge/Santander high, etc.

Ducey - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 11:21 AM EDT (#451103) #
"Conversely, the Jays pitchers often fail to attack hitter where they are vulnerable.
Pitch Soto low, Judge/Santander high, etc."

Really. Soto is hitting 310/437/597 and is rocking a 7.1 WAR. Judge is at 322/456/701 and 7.7 WAR. You suppose thats because the pitchers dont know what they are doing? If only the Jays would just hire you. Both of those guys would be back in the minors in a couple of years.

scottt - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 12:11 PM EDT (#451104) #
https://www.thegoodphight.com/2024/8/3/24209246/zack-wheeler-vs-juan-soto-a-masterclass-in-hitting

Check the heat map. Soto is hitting .000 on balls low and away.

Hard to believe, eh?

Super Bluto - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 01:14 PM EDT (#451105) #
"As for the young Shulman, he has improved by trying less hard to impress."

Agreed. Less is more.

Ironically, the elder Shulman was not great calling Canada's Olympic basketball games. Very repetitive. Maybe they should have used someone like...Eric Smith?
Ducey - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 03:13 PM EDT (#451110) #
"Hard to believe, eh?"

Because its not true. First its low and inside. Secondly the data is not accurate. Here is his heatmap:

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/juan-soto/20123/heat-maps?position=OF&view=bat

And yeah, if the Jays pitchers would just execute perfect pitches every time they would be so much better.
AWeb - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#451116) #
I have no doubt that if pitchers were suddenly able to hit the coldest spot in Soto's heat map every time, it would take a couple of games for him to adjust, at most. Almost no pitchers have the control to hit spots like that though.

Agreed that the Jays are more watchable right now, thanks to new players. Even in failure, I'd rather see something new, both pitching and hitting. The defense seems to have held up with the new guys.
Ducey - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 06:38 PM EDT (#451118) #
Shapiro was blabbing it up today. A lot of verbiage but when asked about Atkins coming back he said he doesnt comment on that during the season, then commented, saying he values continuity.

He didnt exactly say they were trying to contend in '25. They are assessing and thats the intent.

Want to learn and "not let a crisis go to waste."

Just under CBT but that could change.

Fallen short in developing pitching.

From his comments it sure sounds like he is involved in the day to day on field roster construction.
92-93 - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#451119) #
I don't quite get the whole "more watchable" spiel. For me, the only reason that may be true is because Vladdy has become an elite hitter again, Springer is no longer completely useless (though he's trending down again), and Kirk has finally woken up.

If I wanted to watch their AAAA talent, I'd attend/watch Bisons games.
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#451120) #
"We've fallen short in developing pitching" is a) true and b) forthright. There has been too little of that. It's not that hard to do.
Nigel - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 07:02 PM EDT (#451121) #
Normally I wouldn't give credit for stating the blatantly obvious but given what a marked departure from the norm that represents, I suppose kudos of some sort are appropriate. There are three key draft/sign/develop issues that the team has to fix (whether the current FO are the ones to do it I do not know): a) turn around a collapsed IFA talent pipeline; b) forget developing elite pitching help, at least develop a few hundred innings of league average (ish) pitching that can cost league minimum; and c) figure out why universally recognized elite prospects are stagnating at the major league level.
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 07:04 PM EDT (#451122) #
The major league talent did not play like major league talent this year, and were pretty much unwatchable. I guess it comes to aesthetics, but there were no Picassos and no Rembrandts among the whole lot. Those guys were both on the Yankees.
92-93 - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#451123) #
Horwitz, Schneider, and Jimenez have been Jackson Pollocks since the break. Barger's tools are Gaudi though.
greenfrog - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 07:24 PM EDT (#451126) #
I don't get the dissing of Horwitz. He has the second-best wRC+ on the team this year (124). He's hitting .281/.374/.407. After watching Daniel Vogelbach manage a slash line of .186/.278/.300, maybe we can grant Horwitz a bit of forbearance as he tries to figure out the majors (maybe he'll succeed, maybe he won't). He's 26 and has 239 career PA in MLB.
Glevin - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 07:34 PM EDT (#451127) #
Horwitz also has consistently great at bats. Not too worried about him. Not sure if he's an average major leaguer or something better but would be shocked if he's not a major part of the team for next few years.

Shapiro's talk worries me because it still feels like they are keyed on 2025 which makes zero sense because let's say they go for it and everything goes right and they squeak into a playoff spot, well then Vlad, Bo, and more are free agents so you can't compete for a few years. It feels like options are don't try 2025 and compete in a year or two or go for it and probably not make it and then don't compete for years.
scottt - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#451128) #
They need a clean up hitter. The rotation is fine. The pen needs to be fixed every year, so that's not really an issue.

The way Bo played this year, he doesn't factor into anything either way.

They are already paying Guerrero. So either they continue to pay him on a long contract, or they spent the equivalent money on somebody else. Just waiting for players in the system to hit for .300 with 30 homers will take a lot longer than a year or two. The options are to keep going with the payroll around the tax or field a AAA team without starters making 20M a year and they'll probably win 70-something a year. Year after year.

Holliday wasn't able to hit the high fastball the first time around so they sent him down to work on it.
Burr's pitch wasn't high enough and his good pitch is his slider.
 

scottt - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#451129) #
Part of it might be having Horwitz hit cleanup.
Maybe he doesn't go there thinking extra base hits, but the other teams certainly spend more time thinking about how to attack him now than before

uglyone - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 09:51 PM EDT (#451130) #
nice to see some power from Leo.
SK in NJ - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#451131) #
Shapiro has to try to contend in 2025 because that's the only year he is under contract, unless he's already agreed to stay longer. Even if he had 5 years left on his contract, I'm sure he'd still try to contend in 2025 for business reasons, but with him only having a year left on his contract, he really has no incentive to think beyond 2025. If they sneak into the playoffs next season and then have to deal with the aftermath of a bunch of important pieces hitting free agency, I'm sure they'd consider that a success either way.

It is good that they are apparently under the CBT. If they want to dream on 2025 then resetting the penalties and shooting past the tax again next season is really their only shot.
Gerry - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#451132) #
Springer has gone off the boil again. Batting average last 7 games .167, last 15 games .218.

OPS last 7, .439; last 15, .659.
greenfrog - Wednesday, August 07 2024 @ 10:18 PM EDT (#451133) #
I was hoping the team could move Springer at the trade deadline because of his extended recent hot streak (in June/July). I hope they didn’t leave a respectable offer on the table where a chunk of his salary could be traded away. I have low expectations for Springer in 2025-26 (due to injuries and age-related decline).
John Northey - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 12:26 AM EDT (#451134) #
Vlad is quickly approaching his 2021 rate stats - 161 wRC+ this year so far after tonight, 166 in 2021. 317/393/536 slash line vs 2021: 311/401/601 - his avg is better, OBP in eyeshot, Slg% won't match unless he gets onto a HR binge. He is 4th in MLB for average right now but #1 is Bobby Witt at 343 so he needs a lot of help to catch him. Still, it is a positive thing to watch for this horrible season. Vlad hitting, Varsho fielding (DRS of 21 so far, #1 in LF, #5 in CF right now), and the kids.

Btw, for Dollar Value they have Vlad at $26 mil so far, $19 for Varsho, $11 for Kirk (IKF was just over $15 mil when traded, so the Jays got full value out of him as that is what they signed him for over 2 years).
pooks137 - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 01:01 AM EDT (#451135) #
I don't think the Jays could've moved Springer without eating most of the 55+ million left on his deal at the deadline. Team control is only valuable at the deadline if the acquisition has future term at below market rates, outside of some specific circumstances such as stars or big market clubs.

I don't think anyone would claim Springer at the moment if he was placed on waivers.
greenfrog - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 07:01 AM EDT (#451136) #
I generally agree. I was hoping there would be a team with a need for a right fielder, and who looked at Springer's recent production and decided to trade for him as a "win now, address cumbersome contract later" move -- with the Blue Jays eating, say, a third of money still owed on his contract. Sort of a Vernon Wells-lite trade.
ISLAND BOY - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 07:53 AM EDT (#451138) #
Quote from Shapiro yesterday," I'm a huge believer in stability and continuity and that those are competitive advantages, in professional sports. Reacting and change don't necessarily mean improvement."

So, it sounds like if he was president when Pat Gillick was GM, he wouldn't have approved the McGriff, Fernandez for Alomar and Carter trade. I get that stability is important in a winning environment, but you have to get to that winning environment first. Shapiro and Atkins goal seems to be just making the playoffs and then " anything can happen."

Making the playoffs 3 of 4 years is great, albeit in a watered down format, but zero wins in those playoffs isn't. Besides the obvious lack of top end talent being developed on the farm, Shapiro and Atkins seem to lack the vision to lift the Jays from their "just happy to be here" playoff attitude to a " we're going to kick some ass and we have the players to do it" attitude. No wonder Shapiro values stability and continuity, because it has allowed a front office to collect pay cheques for 9 years without a clear idea of how to construct a championship team.
greenfrog - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 08:11 AM EDT (#451139) #
I thought Shapiro’s comments were baloney, but maybe that is standard practice for someone in his corporate position.

I wish someone had listed the recent BA rankings of AL East farm systems (with Baltimore #1, Tampa #2, Boston #9, New York #19, Toronto #23), and asked Shapiro how, after nine years in office, this squares with the team’s last-place finish this year and the front office’s stated philosophy of ensuring “waves of talent” to continually replenish the MLB roster.

It’s harder to be gauzy and vague when confronted with specific facts.
bpoz - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 08:29 AM EDT (#451140) #
I am not surprised by Shapiro's comments. They mean nothing as usual.

IMO he will have to do a balancing act between letting the kids play and bringing in veterans. He will not talk about Vlad and Bo to the public. No FO says that we don't plan to compete. The actions for 2019 made it clear that we were not going to compete but I don't remember what was said to the media.

I expect that spending will continue to a level below the CBT. 2 good/decent relievers seem the best bet.
SK in NJ - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 09:14 AM EDT (#451141) #
The 2021-22 teams were more than capable of making deep playoff runs. Unfortunately the 2021 team won 91 games and finished 4th in their own division, and the 2022 team had one of the worst single game chokes in playoff history. The 2023 team was not a team I had any confidence in, so I wouldn’t group them with the other two, but I don’t think it’s fair to say they have a “just get in” mindset. Maybe they have one now because their jobs are on the line but to make those 2021-23 teams as good as they were required spending big in free agency and making big trades, and you normally don’t do that just to sneak in. They obviously miscalculated how good this core was going to be after 2022 (on top of having a bad off season prior to 2024).

The biggest issue with the FO is lack of player development. I don’t think it’s a lack of dedication to build a great team. They just haven’t been able to draft well or develop well the last few years and it has caught up to them. The lack of IFA is disappointing as well as it’s not due to lack of spending/trying from the looks of it.
Magpie - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 10:01 AM EDT (#451142) #
it sounds like if he was president when Pat Gillick was GM, he wouldn't have approved the McGriff, Fernandez for Alomar and Carter trade.

To the extent it means anything - it doesn't, he's offering generalities without actually committing himself to one thing or another - it may mean he wouldn't have fired Gillick after 1988.
pooks137 - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#451143) #
I thought Shapiro’s comments were baloney, but maybe that is standard practice for someone in his corporate position.

Anthopoulos similarly used to be a motormouth who would wax on poetically while saying actually nothing.

But somehow Alex' interviews didn't come off as so disingenuous & soulless.

I recall fans of that era enjoying parsing through excerpts of his interviews trying to read the tea leaves of what big move AA was planning next.

Ryan Day - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 11:04 AM EDT (#451144) #
Are there other sports executives who say interesting, insightful things? In my experience, everyone spouts the same bland & general corporate speak. Everyone's proud of their team and disappointed in unspecified shortcomings, but nonetheless remain excited about the future. Always want to improve, but not be too reactive.

I don't remember Anthopoulos ever saying anything too meaningful. JP Ricciardi was more interesting, but nobody liked that approach, either.
Marc Hulet - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 11:10 AM EDT (#451145) #
In watching Vladdy interact with his teammates in the dugout and his recent extended hot streak, I can't help but think that he's more at ease and happier having more fellow Latin American players around him now that Jimenez, Berroa, de los Santos, etc are on the team.
Ducey - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 11:45 AM EDT (#451146) #
Maybe Vlad is happy with more Latin players. Maybe he is happy because he is on a 19 game hitting streak.

He looked pretty bad on those two plays at 3B yesterday. Either they stop the 3B experiment or commit to it and let him have regular reps there.

I'd like to see Addison Barger there most days.

I'd also send down Schneider for a reset (he is a pathetic 177/259/235 in the last month), and Loperfido to shorten up his swing and work on his defense. Bring up Wagner and Clase and see how they play in the bigs.
Nigel - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 12:05 PM EDT (#451147) #
I totally agree that you can't hold sports executives to a standard of "here's what's really going on" or "here's what I'm really thinking". Platitudes, defending the club and the plan, writ large, and other things are part of the job. I think you just generally ignore these things. Kind of makes Atkins' post playoff presser last year stand out and gives you the truest window into Atkins as a person.
Magpie - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#451148) #
Charlie Montoyo is out of a job after a semi-purge in Chicago.

But after a rusty first outing, Tim Mayza has now put together five straight scoreless innings for Scranton-Wilkes Barre. His clean-shaven mug might be appearing in a Yankees bullpen soon.
pooks137 - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#451150) #
I totally agree that you can't hold sports executives to a standard of "here's what's really going on" or "here's what I'm really thinking".

From the excerpts I read & the TV clips I saw of Shapiro’s media availability, what I found the most off-putting was him framing this disaster of a season as something that the front office has to "learn from" going forward.

I suppose the spirit of correcting problems is there. But it seemed so tone deaf from corpos a full decade into their cycle.

scottt - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#451151) #
2018 was less competitive, 2019 was going to be more competitive (than 2018) and the plan for 2020 was to be competitive.

That's what actually happened, but they didn't plan for Covid and the restrictions in 2021.

scottt - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#451152) #
AA interviewed a bunch of elite candidates for manager... and picked Farrell.
Then when he quit for his dream job of managing the Red Sox, he brought back Gibby.

Beeston? I don't remember him talking to the media.
I'm sure he did, but I never listened to that.
He certainly had nothing to say. The team was consistently drafting under slot, developing poorly and snobbing free agency. I guess, he also let the facilities deteriorate.

AA had no money to work with, so he made lots of trades.
He never talked about his trades ahead of times.
He was good at small talk--with the right regional accent--and that's all people wanted.

pooks137 - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#451154) #
Beeston? I don't remember him talking to the media. I'm sure he did, but I never listened to that. He certainly had nothing to say.

Going down memory lane, makes me ponder how much input Beeston had in choosing his successor in Shapiro.

There was the meme in 2008-9 where Paul Godfrey stepped down & interim President Beeston did an exhaustive search to select a new candidate, ultimately himself.

Beeston & AA seemed close. Beeston didn't receive muck flak in 2015 when Shapiro was brought in midseason & AA was pushed out. The narrative as I recall was that Beeston was pretty checked out & possibly already gone by that point. The blame for bringing in the Cleveland carpetbaggers seemed to fall solely on Rogers corporate.

Did Beeston in the end have any say in the process that brought in Shapiro & pushed out his golden boy?

Ryan Day - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#451155) #
Beeston hung around in an advisory role after Shapiro's hiring, and spoke pleasantly enough of his successor. Probably not the sort of thing you'd do if you felt screwed over by the organization. https://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/mlb/paul-beeston-retirement-blue-jays-1.3516085
Gerry - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#451156) #
The Blue Jays acquired reliever Tommy Nance from Pittsburgh for cash and promoted him to the major leagues. Genesis Cabrera is on paternity leave.
John Northey - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 05:31 PM EDT (#451157) #
Not expecting much for a cash transaction. Tommy Nance in his age 33 season has 72 1/3 IP in the majors, mostly relief (2 starts, 60 relief) 76 ERA+, 4.2 BB/9 vs 10.8 K/9 1.2 HR/9 - not bad outside of the ERA+. 4.05 ERA in AAA this year for SD 33 1/3 IP 43 H 1.1 HR/9 2.2 BB/9 9.5 K/9 - seems to have a BABIP issue. I suspect he'll enjoy having Varsho in CF. Looks better than I expected for a cash pickup in August. A few on the staff today have ERA+'s worse than his 76 ERA+ - Pop (72), Francis (75), Swanson (59), Burr (74), Yerry Rodríguez (28), Yarbrough (31) - ugh, more than I expected. Yeah, he'll fit in just fine.
Ducey - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 05:49 PM EDT (#451158) #
Odds of Nance playing are zero. Scheider is determined to work his key relievers down the nub.

I guess he gets a few dollars and a trip to Canada.
John Northey - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 06:03 PM EDT (#451159) #
Beeston always was a company man - someone who was right for his job, watching the money and taking care of the business side. Sadly he wasn't as good as Shapiro at getting Rogers to open their pocketbooks, but he was very good at getting government to pay for stuff (see: SkyDome). He probably cut back on his media exposure over the years due to statements that got him in trouble like how he could turn a $4 mil profit into a $2 mil loss and get it approved by all national accounting firms back in 1979.
John Northey - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#451160) #
Given how the pen is right now I suspect Nance will get into a game the day he arrives. Right now, with Cabrera out for a few days, only Green has any trust in that pen. Maybe Little has some too, then Swanson. Everyone else is 'please get through an inning' types. And I'm being generous with Swanson & Little. Since returning Swanson has a 227/320/455 line against him (team is 0-6 in his games) but has allowed just 1 run in 5 2/3 IP. Little since coming up to stay in June has been in 11 Jay wins and 14 losses. 5 holds, 2 blown saves, 0 saves. 3.09 ERA 218/306/368 against. So he is probably as good as the non-Green pitchers get here.

Outside of those 3 who would you trust on this staff? Pop - 1 save, 2 blown, 9 holds but a 5.71 ERA is probably next. Then Burr - 5.65 ERA 7 BB in 14 1/3 IP (ick) vs 15 K's. The rest I wouldn't trust to be the ball-boy let alone in any kind of close game. Yarbrough will get lots of chances as he is costing the Jays a lot of cash (relatively speaking) and was a Jay killer at one time - fully expect him to be put on the waiver wire in hopes of losing what is left on his contract to free up cash to let the Jays call up Votto.
pooks137 - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#451161) #
Nance is out of options according to MLBTR.

He had a decent 2/3 of season in 2022 with the Marlins with a FIP under 4.

Then he was hurt for most of 2023 and was released.

He's righthanded, so not a direct replacement for Cabrera.

Making the league minimum with less than 3 years service time.

Not bad peripherals for someone that hasn't been on a 40-man roster all year. But doesn't seem to have a future beyond the end of the year given age alone.

I realize the Jays are in survival mode at the moment wrt the bullpen for the rest of 2024. But it would still be nice to audition some arms with any hope of being a part of 2025 & beyond.

There's no one currently down in the pen with any hope of being on the next great Jays team other than Green, Cabrera and maybe Little. Maybe Zach Pop, but he's getting old and has been awful.

And everyone groaned whenever Cabrera warmed up prior to Mayza imploding & Cabrera figuring it out in May.
Petey Baseball - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#451162) #
Shapiro was part Beeston's choice. It was messy in late 2014 after Ed Rogers was so stupid that he called Beeston's best friend Jerry Reinsdorf for permission to hire Beeston's replacement. After that debacle, it appears bumbling Eddie felt bad enough that he allowed Beeston a chance to hire his successor, which led to Shapiro. I remember Beeston being very complimentary of Shapiro's time in the game when the hiring was announced, awkwardly enough, in the middle of the Jays 41-17 finish to 2015.



Nigel - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#451163) #
Kirk is some kind of hot. Its really hard to figure out who Kirk is at the plate. A little like Vladdy, his results have varied to a somewhat unusual degree over his major league career.
uglyone - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 08:27 PM EDT (#451165) #
i think Kirk's career line is probably a pretty good descriptor of what he is. The only element of his career line i'm starting to think he might not reach conistently is the .135 ISO, but he won't be that far below that i don't think.

I think pegging him as a league average hitter is a very safe projection. If the power can come back a bit than he could be solidly above average.
uglyone - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 08:53 PM EDT (#451166) #
Vladdy's up to 5th best in MLB now with a 164wrc+.
electric carrot - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#451167) #
I'd love to see him hit for the cycle tonight.
soupman - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 10:22 PM EDT (#451169) #
even before this current hot streak, I've mostly noticed a lot of improvement in Vlad across the things I'm normally bothered by.

he runs out a lot more balls. he's more conservative on the bases...though he does try to draw more throws that he needs to...hard to be annoyed at that though. fitness looks to have be on point and we're nearing the end of the year, so he isn't falling into old habits in-season. this is a guy that wants to, if nothing else, show what he is capable of.

is this the peak? is this what you can expect day-in and day-out for 10 years?

it's going to cost someone a lot of money to discover the answer to that. I can't say for sure that the Jays should re-sign Vlad because they know this guy better than anyone and they can make a better judgement than I can on the type of person he is and what he's likely to be like going forward.

I was among those high on Vlad coming into the season, and I kind of expected this output out of the gate...but it's nice to see it's in there. I don't think teams have an answer to this. I think it's up to him how long he can or wants to keep this up. and then the other side is...avoiding injury. he's been hurt more than you might like to see, and health can be a skill.

wherever he is playing in 2026 and beyond, I think he's going to have some absolute monster years. another thing to keep in mind is that Vlad is a year away from free agency at an age when Judge was a rookie. Vlad's probably going to end the season with more than 100 more HR than Judge had at the same age. is it possible they are on the same level?

so, if Vlad isn't the talisman for the next decade...who is?
Magpie - Thursday, August 08 2024 @ 10:39 PM EDT (#451170) #
This bullpen. Never a dull moment. Never a relaxing one, either.

Guerrero looks like he's maturing. As a hitter, as a player, as a teammate. Like he's figured some things out. He's not just the prodigiously talented baby of the squad anymore.
Nigel - Friday, August 09 2024 @ 01:05 AM EDT (#451171) #
For one night Schneider should get a nod for his lineup decisions. Varsho and his career .295 OBP should be no one’s idea of someone to hit before Vladdy to get on base. But Schneider clearly did and he was right at least for tonight.
scottt - Friday, August 09 2024 @ 07:05 AM EDT (#451172) #
They have to be very careful with the 40 roster.
It's not the time to add guys that don't need to be added and they seem to understand this.
I would certainly like to see Hagen Danner if he's ever healthy.
I like Fluharty and Brock but they are still very young.
Many relievers are failed starters and they aren't many of those types around.
We got Pardinho but he's been hit in Buffalo.

Also, it's better to have a 2-month look at one hitter than 2 1-month look at two hitters.



ISLAND BOY - Friday, August 09 2024 @ 07:28 AM EDT (#451173) #
" he's more conservative on the bases"

Well, he did get thrown out a few nights ago trying to steal third with no outs so he still is reckless at times, maybe because he thinks he's faster than he really is.

I agree, soupman that Vlad seems more mature this season and cutting his hair has produced a reverse-Samson increase in power. I was impressed by his English in his post-game interview with Arden Zwelling last night. It doesn't seem that long ago that he was still using an interpreter.
uglyone - Friday, August 09 2024 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#451175) #
I would wager that Wagner would be doing better than Loperfido in the bigs right now.
92-93 - Friday, August 09 2024 @ 10:49 AM EDT (#451176) #
Schneider loves going R-L-R-L-R when he can, Nigel, so Varsho was really his only option with Horwitz, Loperfido, and Barger not hitting. It worked, but he should probably just put Vladdy back at #2 unless he prefers batting 3rd.

Hopefully everybody was entertained by last night's game despite the rookies going 1/15.
Nigel - Friday, August 09 2024 @ 10:58 AM EDT (#451177) #
Since May 1 Varsho has been the worst hitting regular on the team not named Bichette, and by quite a bit, so I still think he gets some credit for his choice:). Having said that I understand it’s picking the best of some terrible options right now. Loperfido, in particular, looks really poor.
John Northey - Friday, August 09 2024 @ 11:37 AM EDT (#451178) #
Right now the team has to try the kids as much as they can.
  • Joey Loperfido: 25 yrs old: 18 OPS+ as a Jay, 73 overall over 145 PA. In AAA for Houston (PCL so extreme hitters environment) 272/365/568 (team as a whole is hitting 265/370/455). I doubt there is a lot there but giving him some runway this year will help decide for 2025 if he is AAA fodder or ML talent. Some actually thought he'd be a key piece if Houston wanted to get Vlad so maybe there is more there than I see. He did have a 940 OPS in AA last year (team 765), and a 900 between A/A+ the year before, over 1000 his last year of college.
  • Addison Barger: 24 yrs old: 53 OPS+ over 95 PA but 276/323/621 over his last 9 games (31 PA). Needs more runway, starting not pinch hitting (0-2 with 2 walks). Seen as a top prospect, he needs a full shot right now.
  • Leo Jimenez: 23 yrs old: 89 OPS+ over 84 PA, 4 doubles his last 2 games though. Might be something here, very good idea to get him in as much as possible with possible Bo trade this winter.
  • Steward Berroa: 25 yrs old: 29 OPS+ over 24 PA - clearly the Jays see him as a 4th/5th OF at best. 5 SB vs 1 CS suggests he could be useful in that role.
  • Luis De Los Santos: 26 yrs old: 0-4 with a walk, organization soldier who is getting his reward, some ML service time. I'd be shocked if he plays much or does much. Glad he is getting his chance though. Hoping he gets that first ML hit soon.
  • Other 25 year olds: Kirk, Vlad, Schneider; 26 year olds: Horwitz, Bo.
I think keeping Jimenez, Barger, and Loperfido in the lineup as much as possible makes a ton of sense right now. All 3 could be regulars in 2025 if they can establish themselves now. I'd give Springer more DH time so Berroa could get in there more too - see if he can be a solid 4th OF option (plus he is fun to watch play). I'd love Jonatan Clase to come up and play but unless there is an injury he'd just take away from Loperfido's chance to play. One in the majors, one in AAA makes a ton of sense right now.
uglyone - Friday, August 09 2024 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#451179) #
Last 14 days:

* 1B Guerrero (25): 59pa, 350wrc+
* C Kirk (25): 37pa, 206wrc+
* 3B Barger (24): 31pa, 160wrc+
* CF Varsho (27): 46pa, 115wrc+
* 2B Clement (28): 57pa, 108wrc+
* SS Jimenez (23): 40pa, 105wrc+
* LF Berroa (25): 19pa, 72wrc+
* RF Springer (34): 52pa, 55wrc+
* DH Schneider (25): 36pa, 46wrc+

* UT Horwitz (26): 47pa, 29wrc+
* C Serven (29): 17pa, 23wrc+
* OF Loperfido (25): 34pa, 20wrc+
* IF DeLosSantos (26): 5pa, -17wrc+



Last 30 days:

* 1B Guerrero (25): 104pa, 285wrc+
* 3B Barger (24): 32pa, 152wrc+
* C Kirk (25): 61pa, 138wrc+
* CF Varsho (27): 83pa, 107wrc+
* 2B Clement (28): 96pa, 106wrc+
* RF Springer (34): 98pa, 98wrc+
* SS Jimenez (23): 75pa, 80wrc+
* DH Horwitz (26): 104pa, 58wrc+
* LF Schneider (25): 62pa, 54wrc+

* OF Loperfido (25): 62pa, 34wrc+
* OF Berroa (25): 24pa, 34wrc+
* C Serven (29): 17pa, 23wrc+
* IF DeLosSantos (26): 5pa, -17wrc+




I don't know that we need to be overly patient with any of the 25/26yr old set tbh.

Yeah let them play but if they're scuffling there's other similar aged guys or younger (Clase, Wagner, Tirotta, Orelvis*) that deserve a chance too.
AWeb - Friday, August 09 2024 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#451181) #
The first few hundred at bats for any player only tell you so much. Some look terrible, some look like Schneider last year. Gotta' let them play, coach them, see who adjusts.
First ~100ABs for best blue jays hitters (historical):
  • Tony Fernandez: 18/95 to start, a few walks, no power. This goes to midway his second year, at which point he caught fire.
  • Carlos Delgado: a .200/.300/.500 hitter early on. Those around at the time remember his early streak on tape measure shots, but he stunk and got demoted afterwards. Changed position, came back at age 24.
  • Jesse BArfield: is first year 232/270/378 in 100 PA.
  • Vernon Wells: 256/287/344 his first two years.
The best tend to start young, struggle, and go from there. But even older prospects follow similar paths, just with lower peaks and less "useful" time - instead of 15 years, maybe they have 5. Like 
  • Kelly Gruber stunk ages 22-25, though he improved, then was very good at 26.
Are any of the older prospects going to turn into Hall of Famers or MVPs- Not likely. but a few might be Kevin Pillar, Reed Johnson, Rance Mulliniks, etc. This is why I said I prefer watching the young guys fail - most will flame out and be gone in a year or two, but one or more probably figures it out and is helpful in 2025. More likely them than Biggio, Jansen (always believed, still rooting for him), Vogelbach, Kiermaier, etc. 
ISLAND BOY - Friday, August 09 2024 @ 12:30 PM EDT (#451182) #
I would think the Jays will try to add one big bat this winter to slot in behind Vlad next season. I got to agree with a lot of posters that it is fun watching the young guys play. The bullpen is a mess, though.
scottt - Friday, August 09 2024 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#451187) #
Vlad prefers hitting 3rd.

Vlad Sr hit cleanup in 1178 and batted third in 852 games. He hit second in only 5 games.
Vlad is a traditionalist. Number 27 and all.

scottt - Friday, August 09 2024 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#451188) #
Shapiro pointed to the bullpen as the main reason the season was wasted.
That's good. They moved on from Pearson. I wouldn't be surprised if they move on from Pop as well.

Green is good.
Romano should be back next year, but I am not expecting too much.
Swanson will be given every opportunity to fully bounce back, I think.
Burr has an option left next year, which might save him.
He's mostly a guy you want in AAA as a depth.
Little still has 2 options.
It's funny cause he was drafted by the Cubs just ahead of Pearson.
Cabrera has one year of arbitration left.
So, basically the pen needs 3, maybe 4 arms.

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