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I'd like to ruffle his plumage
That Baltimore Oriole


Road trip! Beginning with a double-header against the division leaders.


Zach Eflin makes his Orioles debut today - he pitched a good game against the Jays just last week when he was still a Devil Fish (the Jays scored four runs late against Jason Adam, when he was still a Devil Fish, to win it.) Cade Povich is a skinny southpaw coming up to work the double header, rather like Bowden Francis for the Jays.

Yusei Kikuchi is still the scheduled starter for Wednesday, what with him still being on the team and all, although it seems unlikely that he'll still be a Blue Jay by the time Wednesday comes around. Justin Turner is also doing his level best to impress anyone who might be paying attention - he's hitting .565/.600/.783 over the past week.

For the first three months of 2024, Trevor Richards was one of the few competent, reliable people in the Blue Jays bullpen. His manager leaned on him, heavily. Very heavily. Richards appeared in 35 of the team's first 81 games - you can all do that math, he was on pace for 70 appearances over the whole year. It's quite a bit more work than the 56 games he appeared in last season. He had also been ridiculously lucky on his Balls In Play - his strikeout rate was actually down, rather significantly, from 2023 but the opposition was hitting a feeble .157 on their Balls In Play.

It seemed unlikely that either his workload, or his good fortune, or both, would be sustainable in the long run. The reckoning has come, and it has been For Mature Audiences Only. In his last 6 outings, Richards has faced 33 batters and retired just 13 of them. He's pitched 4.1 innings, allowed 14 Hits and 6 BB, and seen his season ERA go from 2.54 to 4.83.

Richards has still allowed just 36 Hits in his 50.1 IP this season, which is still an outstanding level of performance - 6.4 Hits/9 IP. Only Chad Green is stingier with the base hit. Genesis Cabrera, who like Richards, has issued 3.9 BB per 9 IP and allowed 1.3 HRs, has allowed 9.3 Hits per 9 - it's by far the largest difference in their performance (besides the fact that Cabrera doesn't strike out very many hitters.) Richards has put 58 hitters on base, and 30 of them - more than half - have come around to score. Cabrera has put 63 hitters on base, but just 23 of them have scored. That's not really random luck, of course - Richards has given up almost 40% of the hits he's allowed all season in the last six of his 44 appearances (which is also when he's given up more than half of the runs he's allowed.) You might say that the opposition has effectively bunched their production against him.

We all bid a teary goodbye to Danny Jansen and Yimi Garcia this week (and a not-so-teary goodbye to Nate Pearson), and I know some people pointed out that the team could always pursue them this winter in free agency. I instinctively recoil from the suggestion. I associate it, probably unfairly, with the Maple Leafs and hence a Thing To Be Avoided. (I don't know that the Leafs have actually brought back more people for a second tour than the Blue Jays, or if it just seems that way.) The Jays have even brought back two of the thirteen people they've hired to manage the team for a second tour of duty, and I'll wager not many other teams (non-Steinbrenner division) have done that. Anyway, I generally think it's a mistake and should be avoided. OK, J.A. Happ's second tour was actually better than his first, and each of Tony Fernandez's three (!) returns to the fold had something going for them, even if they never quite matched his first stint as a Jay. I remain dubious.

Matchups

Mon 29 July - Ya. Rodriguez (1-3, 3.69) vs Elfin (5-7, 4.09)
Mon 29 July - Francis (1-2, 5.82) vs Povich (1-4, 6.27)
Tue 30 July - Bassitt (8-9, 3.78) vs Burnes (10-4, 2.45)
Wed 31 July - Kikuchi (4-9, 4.75) vs G. Rodriguez (12-4, 3.82)
Blue Jays at Baltimore, July 29-31 | 226 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
92-93 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#450373) #
The FA C options (that can hit) besides Jansen include Travis d'Arnaud, Carson Kelly, and Elias Diaz.

They can't go into '25 without adding a caddy for Kirk, who quickly wears down from overuse.
Ducey - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#450374) #
From Morosi on MLB.com:

The Dodgers are among the teams discussing Yusei Kikuchi trade proposals with the Blue Jays.

The Twins, Padres and Astros also are involved.

A Kikuchi deal is seen as very likely before 6 pm ET tomorrow.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 12:51 PM EDT (#450375) #
Anthony Castrovince bold prediction:

"Vladimir Guerrero Jr. will go to the Mariners

Seattle president of baseball operations Jerry Dipoto has to be feeling the heat after this team, with an elite rotation, squandered a 10-game division lead faster than you can say, “We’re going to win 54% of the time.” You just know that if Dealin’ Dipoto is gonna go down, he’s gonna go down swapping!

Arozarena is aboard, but -- with Julio Rodríguez banged up and underperforming and multiple 33-year-olds named Mitch (Garver and Haniger) batting around .200 -- the Mariners STILL sorely need offense. They made the Arozarena deal without dealing catching prospect Harry Ford or any of their coveted middle-infield prospects (Cole Young, Colt Emerson and Felnin Celesten). They can swing a Guerrero deal.

The Blue Jays have been adamant publicly about not dealing Guerrero and signaling a rebuild, but they haven’t been able to win with him, and their outlook for 2025 (his last year of control) looks dim. A Deadline short on impact bats is a good time for them to come to their senses and get value back for Vladdy Jr."
Marc Hulet - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 01:08 PM EDT (#450376) #
Writers looking for views/clicks. There's no way this front office trades Vladdy at this deadline.
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#450377) #
FO could make life so much easier for themselves if they jsut signed Vladdy for 10yrs. Even if they overpay him by $10m. Makes literally no difference.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 01:24 PM EDT (#450379) #
If they could overpay him by 1 million per year I am sure they would have done that already. Try 4-5 million per year and that's likely what you're gonna have to pay him. Is he worth 40-50 million more dollars than Devers?
Marc Hulet - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#450380) #
Also, Houston and San Diegp don't have the prospects (outside their top 2-3) to make a deal worthwhile. Give me SS/CF Brandon Winokur from Minnesota, though. Athletic, 6'6" with excellent exit velos. Power/speed combo up the middle.
Nigel - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 01:28 PM EDT (#450381) #
The reasons why someone hasn't been signed are often complex. I just don't think that you can assume its a FO failure. Maybe Vladdy doesn't want to be here post 2025 because he wants to win. Maybe he wants $40+ million a year. What I think would be a failing is for the FO to not make the hard decision with Vladdy. Sign him or trade him (I'm not saying that just in the context of this trade deadline, although this is one feasible time to do so).
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#450383) #
I only push for a trade of Vladdy under that circumstance. I presume if they could have signed either him or Bo at market rate then they would have already.

Marc, why don't think the opposing team would try to trade for Vladdy without giving up their top 2 prospects? No chance he is traded if the return doesn't include an overpay.
Ducey - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 01:40 PM EDT (#450384) #
Overpaying Vladdy makes a difference.

Even if they do a rebuild and come out of it in 4 years, they have a budget. Having a bloated underperforming player taking up a big chunk of salary means they have consequences under the CBT, including escalating tax, compensation and draft picks.

Vlad may not be the next Prince Fielder, but you need to think about it for sure. I am not sure Javier Baez is making anyone happy in DET, except his banker.
85bluejay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 01:43 PM EDT (#450385) #
Ownership should step in and tell the FO to trade Vladdy - The Jays and Vlad's camp have had ongoing talks over the years and Jays ownership have a pretty good idea what it will take to sign Vlad - if the team doesn't trade Vlad now when his value is high and then are unable/unwilling to extend him, then that's a massive failure and the team will deserve all of the fallout that occurs including perhaps irrelevancy in this marketplace for some years.
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#450386) #
I said $10m overpay not $1m.

and a $10m overpay would literally not make an ounce of difference to the team's future.
Ducey - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 01:53 PM EDT (#450387) #
"Ownership should step in and tell the FO to trade Vladdy"

Ownership should never be involved in any player decision making. See Mets, Jerry Jones, Katz telling the Oilers GM they must take Naill Yakupov 1st overall, Harold Ballard, Buffalo Sabers, Oakland A's, Orioles under previous management, etc, etc, etc.
Glevin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#450388) #
I don't think Jays will trade Vladdy. Should they? Depends on if they think they can re-sign him and value they can get back. If someone blows you away with an offer, you should be able to trade anyone but that seems unlikely. If the Jays think they have a good chance of signing Vladdy in off-season, then go for that. The one outcome I fear is Jays letting him walk for nothing. They need to go one way or the other by the start of next season. Either extend him or trade him. (Same goes for Bo although I think they just need to trade him.)

Also, $10M a year obviously matters to an organization. Every team has a budget and if you have $40M in your budget or $30M means you can do very different things.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 01:56 PM EDT (#450389) #
10 million over 10 years is an overpay of 1 million each year.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 02:02 PM EDT (#450390) #
Cleveland held up an entire team flight (and kept trade proposals on the ready) until Jose Ramirez decided by a deadline to either resign or be traded. He resigned.

He also made money a secondary priority which is the main reason he was able to be resigned. I get the impression Vlad wants an offer to him to be rich enough for him to forego free agency.
85bluejay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#450391) #
The Phillies (Ryan Howard), Tigers (Miguel Cabrera) amongst others would say that vastly overpaying a player can have a significant ripple effect on an organization and their ability to compete.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#450392) #
Justin Upton, Carlos Delgado (strapped payroll), Albert Pujols, Mike Trout, Kris Bryant, Javier Baez, Carlos Rendon, Jacob DeGrom, Carlos Correa, Carlos Rendon, Stephen Strasburg, Giancarlo Stanton...
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#450393) #
"Cardinals To Acquire Fedde, Pham; Dodgers To Acquire Edman, Kopech In Three-Team Deal With White Sox"
metafour - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#450394) #
I said $10m overpay not $1m.

$10M overpay per year, or $10M overpay on his total contract?

Vlad's situation is entirely unique. Pujols and Votto are the only two 1B/DH players in MLB history who have landed 10+ year contracts. There is a reason for that. I'm sure that his asking figure is set at $300+ million over 10+ years, but the problem is that because of the position he plays (which he does so really poorly on top of it) you basically need him to be a consistently elite hitter (150-160+ wRC+ hitting) to make that number logically sound.

The problem here of course is that out of 6 total MLB seasons, he has put up 2 such seasons (if you count this season with the way his hitting is trending). So that $300+M contract would depend entirely on him playing like one of the 5-10 best hitters in the league (because he provides negative defense and baserunning value), but he hasn't shown that level of consistency. If he drops back down to a 120-130 wRC+ type hitter at any point then that contract is horrendous - that is how razor thin the line is here. You can't sign a ~130 wRC+ 1B/DH who isn't even a good defender at 1B and who is a bad baserunner for $300+ million. I don't care how much "he means to the team" or how much money your ownership has.

dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#450395) #
Dodgers cough up 17th, 23rd, 26th ranked prospects and Vargas for Edman and Kopech

Cardinals get prospects and Pham for Edman coming off injury on rehab

White Sox get prospects
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#450396) #
CORRECTION:

Dodgers cough up 17th, 23rd, 26th ranked prospects and Vargas for Edman and Kopech

Cardinals get Fedde and Pham for Edman coming off injury on rehab

White Sox get prospects
Marc Hulet - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 02:26 PM EDT (#450397) #
Don't mind Jeral Perez but the Sox didn't really get much for Fedde and Kopech.
92-93 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 02:29 PM EDT (#450398) #
People in here seem to be upset that AAAA guys aren't getting enough playing time. You know what I'd rather see for the rest of the season if the team decides the games are meaningless (they are not, currently)? Vladdy at 3B every day.
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 02:31 PM EDT (#450400) #
"$10M overpay per year, or $10M overpay on his total contract?"

per year
Glevin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 02:32 PM EDT (#450401) #
"Don't mind Jeral Perez but the Sox didn't really get much for Fedde and Kopech."

Miguel Vargas is a perfect pickup for a rebuilding team. He's 24 and ZIPS has him as a 113 WRC+ guy. If he can find a defensive home, he is a player.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 02:35 PM EDT (#450402) #
Ugly, that's a grossly irresponsible use of resources. Maybe you can justify that for half the contract but definitely not for the decline years. Wouldn't you rather sign him without the overpay and have leftover money to sign a player like Horwitz?

Vlad is not Ohtani. He's not going to be burning in invisible" money that offsets any contract expense. He's less valuable than Devers and this FO know it and likely is refusing to offer him more after factoring inflation since Raphael signed his deal.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#450403) #
Jack Flaherty scratched and expected to be traded next.
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 02:38 PM EDT (#450404) #
the jays have wasted far more than $10m per year on replacement fodder. the overpayment would affect them zero.
Nigel - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#450405) #
Again, I think that the Vladdy situation isn't really that complicated. In my view, its an open question if the team would be better with: A) Vladdy at $25-30m per year and Horwitz playing out of position; or B) $25-30m per year in available payroll, the assets from a Vladdy trade and Horwitz playing his best defensive position. I don't happen to think that the answer is obvious one way or the other. But, because the options seem fairly close to me you make the highest offer than you can justify and if he says no you move one. It just takes the will to make that hard decision. Having said that, there is no need to force anything today vs in the offseason. I think Bo is a totally different matrix of decision making but he needs to get back playing well before anything can or should happen with him
Mike Green - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#450406) #
It's an interesting thing.  Take David Ortiz- between ages 27 and 31, he amassed 24 WAR as a slow DH.   Between ages 32 and 34, he hit a slump and produced 4.5 WAR (i.e he hit his "bad Vlad" period). but rebounded for another 6.8 WAR at age 35-36. 

Can Vlad do the same thing as Ortiz between ages 27 and 36? Of course.  Is he likely to?  Damned if I know. 
Ducey - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#450407) #
"the jays have wasted far more than $10m per year on replacement fodder. the overpayment would affect them zero."

The Jays would be by definition be wasting $10m per year on Vlad. the overpayment would affect them negatively.

dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#450408) #
Nigel I completely agree with you except there is a huge advantage to selling now because you will get a better return.
Mike Green - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#450409) #
However, Vlad's willingness to be a DH is open to question.  So far in his career, he hasn't hit well as a DH. 
metafour - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#450410) #
Can Vlad do the same thing as Ortiz between ages 27 and 36? Of course. Is he likely to? Damned if I know.

The part you didn't mention is this: The biggest contract that Ortiz signed in his entire career was for 4 years, $52M. Apart from that deal he was signing 1-2 year contracts.

And again, that is the crux of the impasse here: Vlad wants to be paid/committed to like a superstar SS, but he plays 1B/DH. Yordan Alvarez signed an extension with the Astros for 6 years, $115M and he is a similar profile to Vlad as a bat-only player (he is actually an even better hitter). If you are the Blue Jays, how can you look at that contract and then say that Vlad is a 10-year, $300M+ player?

Nigel - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#450411) #
Maybe you can get a better return now - and if so then make the hard decision now. The reason to think that you'd get more now is obvious - that someone would get Vlad for 1.4 seasons and help with a playoff push. However, that benefit has to be offset by the fact that there are probably only 2 or 3 bidders right now who need a 1B whereas there might be 6-8 in need in the offseason.
Nigel - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#450412) #
Comparing anyone to Ortiz and his career/performance arc isn't that helpful due to the PED usage. To me, the only question is whether you happen to believe that there is a 2021 level mid career performance arc for Valddy. If you do, then its a completely different contract you're talking about. If its the 2-4 WAR per year (or less) performance level, that every other data point suggests, then its a much much lower annual number.
Mike Green - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#450413) #
To be clear, I wouldn't.  I am just saying that he could earn the contract, with a little bit extra if he reaches the top of what is reasonably foreseeable.  On the other hand, Vlad might easily be gone from the league (or of essentially no value at all) by the time he's 30. 
99BlueJaysWay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 03:30 PM EDT (#450414) #
Ariel is having some trouble locating to start the game. 3 straight walks and full counts. Now a base hit. Still no outs. Not a great time for a short outing, but at least the pen is rested
greenfrog - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#450415) #
The front office is following its MO. They did this after 2016 (kept Donaldson for another kick at the can). I fully expect them to do the same and keep Vladdy for another run at the postseason in 2025.
99BlueJaysWay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#450416) #
Should be Yariel, obviously. Stupid autocorrect
99BlueJaysWay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#450417) #
Oh man. Now McCann hit in the head.

Amazing how fast the good vibes from the weekend can disappear
99BlueJaysWay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#450418) #
Turner didn’t come out for the 2nd. Deal?!?
Mike Green - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#450419) #
Presumably,  Turner's removal from the game likely means that he has been traded. 
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#450420) #
"The Jays would be by definition be wasting $10m per year on Vlad. the overpayment would affect them negatively."

better to waste money on good players than on dregs.
Glevin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:03 PM EDT (#450421) #
Turner to Mariners.
99BlueJaysWay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:03 PM EDT (#450422) #
Rosenthal says it’s the Mariners
Glevin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#450423) #
Here's how I hope the Turner trade conversations went.

Seattle: We want your 1Bman and will give up a bunch of top prospects.

Jays: Done.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#450424) #
Damn, nice deadline for Mr. Dipoto. He has dramatically improved his offense without giving up any of his top tier prospects. Still maintains a top farm system.
Glevin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#450425) #
Really feels like Horwitz has made a ton of outs at the wall but I haven't checked.
Glevin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#450426) #
Jays get a meh AA OFer but honestly, didn't expect much for Turner. More just salary dump and free up playing time.
Gerry - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#450427) #
The Jays said they would have backups in place for trades. I wonder which position player is in Baltimore?

The only uninjured position player currently on the 40 man is the new Jay, Classe.

Riley Tirotta would be a Turner like replacement. Rafael Lantigua would be a cover every position guy.
Nigel - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#450428) #
I'd guess that the Jays are retaining salary on the Turner deal.
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#450429) #
​this is actually his 23yr old season. birthday a week or two ago.

a good 2yrs old for A+ this year but crushed it.

​only a year old for AA so if he can hack it there the rest of the year then he might be half interesting.

weren't ever gonna get much for Turner. fine return for me.
Glevin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#450430) #
Apparently, Jays aren't paying any salary which is incredible. Should get under the luxury cap now I think.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#450431) #
RJ Schreck is the return per Divish. Floor of 4/5 OF with upside of Horwitz-lite. Seattle's 29th ranked prospect.
85bluejay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#450432) #
An organisation with a suspect farm system is adding a bunch of suspects to the system - well done!
Nigel - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#450433) #
If they aren't retaining any salary then that is an unbelievably good deal for the Jays.
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:23 PM EDT (#450434) #
a hopeful comp for Schreck would be a guy like Roden

A

* Roden (22): 115pa, 14.8b%, 11.3k%, .253bip, .233avg, .078iso, 105wrc+
* Schreck (22): 102pa, 9.8b%, 10.8k%, .291bip, .267avg, .111iso, 99wrc+

A+

* Roden (23): 323pa, 13.0b%, 9.9k%, .353bip, .321avg, .138iso, 150wrc+
* Schreck (23): 344pa, 16.6b%, 13.7k%, .274bip, .261avg, .203iso, 148wrc+

AA

* Roden (23): 209pa, 12.4b%, 15.3k%, .350bip, .310avg, .149iso, 147wrc+
* Schreck (23): 34pa, 11.8b%, 20.6k%, .190bip, .143avg, .107iso, 64wrc+


obviously that tiny AA sample for schreck has to improve the rest of the season to really make the comp sing.
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:24 PM EDT (#450435) #
Blake Murphy says the jays are still about $5m away from the CBT line.
85bluejay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#450436) #
The Angels really got a good return for a rental in Carlos Estevez - I wonder if the Jays had talks with the Phillies about Yimi Garcia.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#450437) #
Roden was ranked 7th in Jays system vs Schreck who was 29th in Mariners system. Those lists are based on numbers before Schreck's time in AA where he has suffered from bip numbers.
Marlow - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#450438) #
When the Jays trade Kikuchi, they will save $4.2m (0.35x12). If KK and Richards go, even with some retained on KK, they should be able to get to the $5m.
99BlueJaysWay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#450439) #
Blake’s number seems too high, no? They should have already cleared out more than $10M.
scottt - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#450440) #
It really sounds incredible that they wouldn't send money with Turner.

Schreck is a left bat with a bit of pop.

85bluejay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#450441) #
MLB & MLBPA recently agreed to give 15m each to teams that lost money because of the bankruptcy of their tv providers - glad to see the Mariners spending some of that money.
Gerry - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 04:57 PM EDT (#450442) #
The Jays return in these trades are almost all position players. Is this a choice, or are teams unwilling to trade pitchers?
SK in NJ - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#450443) #
I guess playing Turner everyday and letting his OPS creep back up did end up helping a bit. John Schneider vindicated. Can't believe the Mariners are picking up all the money. They are clearly desperate for bats. Getting under the luxury tax should be pretty easy now after trading Kikuchi and Richards.
Ducey - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:06 PM EDT (#450444) #
"Schreck is a left bat with a bit of pop."

And, surprise, surprise, consistently more walks than strikeouts.

Aaron Judge would have never made it as a prospect with this GM.

I mean I like players that dont strikeout twice a game, but there has to be other criteria at play than this simple ratio. I am not sure there is with this front office.

Yeah, I know, the Jays are lucky to get anyone for the remnants of Youpi, but this is very consistent among draft picks and most of those acquired. It doesnt lead to the finding of tools that you want in a flyer, just lack of power, meh defence, etc.
greenfrog - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#450445) #
It wouldn't surprise me if none of the players acquired by the Blue Jays end up contributing significant value at the MLB level. I'm not saying these are bad returns, just that this is what happens when a team trades non-elite rental players. You acquire some prospects who are well below the top 100 and see if any of them exceeds expectations.

If the Blue Jays add some depth to their farm system and clear enough salary to get below the CBT line, then I guess that would be a modest but significant achievement for now.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#450446) #
"for the remnants of Youpi"

Let's try to maintain some decency here, no need to slag a player for being a redhead Ducey. Youppi! is spelled with two P's by the way.
Kelekin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#450447) #
No complaints from me. This is more than I expected for Turner.
Nigel - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:11 PM EDT (#450449) #
Today's silver lining (other than the Turner trade) is what's going on with Kirk's offence (and has been for some time now). Still no power but the rest looks much better.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#450450) #
Yeah I think I'll be okay paying Teoscar and Santander the same amount needed to pay Vlad and for half the years and a way better farm system.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#450451) #
Justin Turner's comments out the door on the Blue Jays: "First class organization."
Ducey - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#450452) #
"The Jays return in these trades are almost all position players. Is this a choice, or are teams unwilling to trade pitchers?"

Maybe its like that scene in Moneyball with Atkins sitting across from the math geek. Atkins calls Dipoto and points out Turner is hitting .500 lately and would lead them to glory. When asked what he wants in return, Atkins covers the phone and asks the math guy who has a BB/K ratio above 1 in the Mariners system. Then pulls the trigger figuring he has uncovered a unpolished gem with his special maths.

He has no such ratio for pitchers apparently.
Kelekin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#450453) #
Despite all the reasons people have to be upset with the current regime for the on-field product, they've brought the organization's standing with players way, way up. Toronto might not be New York or Los Angeles but it's no longer "ew, Canada".
Ducey - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#450454) #
"no need to slag a player for being a redhead Ducey."

Oh I was not slagging him for being a redhead. The red hair is almost a perfect match, but the beard and longish hair really sell it.

If I was going to slag him, I would have compared him to Gritty, lol.
metafour - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:20 PM EDT (#450455) #
Yeah, I know, the Jays are lucky to get anyone for the remnants of Youpi, but this is very consistent among draft picks and most of those acquired.

Its really not. I think you are seeing what you want to see. Their highest drafted position player in recent history (Arjun Nimmala) is the complete opposite of what you just described. Jonatan Clase, who they just acquired for Yimi Garcia, does not fit this profile at all either. Neither does Cutter Coffe(y the main piece back from the Jansen trade): 14 HR's, 24% K-rate, 10% BB-rate. All of these players that I just referenced are higher-precedent acquisitions than this Schreck guy, who is essentially just a player acquired in a salary-dump and not anyone they actually expect anything out of.

Even if you go back to last year's trade deadline when they were "buyers": what would you describe Paul DeJong as? The guy is a basically a walking strikeout who never walks. His only offensive "skill" is hitting the occasional HR. That's who they traded for.

Nigel - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#450456) #
Actually the official trade says "Turner and cash considerations" to Seattle. So, it looks like the Jays did retain. I'd be surprised if it wasn't a good chunk of the remaining salary otherwise why would Seattle do this? Turner was very likely to be released after the trade deadline.
Marlow - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#450457) #
If that is the case, then additionally one of IKF or Chad Green will have to go in order to get below the CBT.

It would be nice to get some pitchers back though.
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#450458) #
"I mean I like players that dont strikeout twice a game, but there has to be other criteria at play than this simple ratio. I am not sure there is with this front office."

as someone who poops all over this FO, I am very very happy with this tendency of theirs. definitely the right one imo.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:28 PM EDT (#450459) #
"The Mariners are absorbing the remainder of Turner’s contract, per Daniel Kramer of MLB.com on X."
Nigel - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:31 PM EDT (#450461) #
Who knows then - the Jays' official site says "Turner and cash considerations to Seattle". I think I'd rely upon the Jays official site but....
Marlow - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#450462) #
Here is that link mentioned by dalimon5. Roughly $4.3m.

https://twitter.com/DKramer_/status/1818025406358032480
Nigel - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#450463) #
Serious question - is there a way to pay Seattle the $4.3m as cash considerations for the trade but have Turner's remaining salary go on the Mariners' tab? Otherwise I can't reconcile the Jays' press release with that.
adrianveidt - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#450464) #
Acquiring a Jays hitter to help with offense is truly an act of desperation.
Marlow - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#450465) #
Nigel, I think you are right. The Jays are sending cash. MLT Traderumours is also saying cash is involved.
Hodgie - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#450466) #
I for one would be very sad to see the Jays trade Guerrero. Of course, I am also of the opinion that we haven't seen anything close to his ceiling, 2021 notwithstanding. He has improved his approach, his conditioning, and is starting to elevate the ball again. Oh yeah, he is still only 25, the same age as Aaron Judge in his first full-time season. Who else am I going to watch drive balls 385 feet the other way in a Jays uniform?
Ducey - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 06:03 PM EDT (#450467) #
"Its really not. I think you are seeing what you want to see."

Well, almost all of their recent draft class had a good BB/K ratio, as do a few of the guys they got in recent trades. Its a thing for sure. Its not universal, though.

It seems that some of the other teams (that are better at identifying useful players) dont value "controlling the strike zone" as much, but instead look for other things like athleticism and tools.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 06:03 PM EDT (#450468) #
I think people need to adjust their expectations with Vlad. It's not "I want to continue watching Vlad as a Blue Jay" which is the option. I believe it is more accurate to say "I want to watch Vlad play for one more season with the Jays or 3/4 of a season before we trade him."

That's the more realistic scenario and in that case you trade him now. I just can't see any scenario where you have 6 years to lock up your best or damn near best hitter in franchise history and are not able to do so while demonstrating that you have payroll space and money. It signals to me that the contract he is asking is too high and unrealistic.

If the alternative to trading Vlad is to resign him and watch him forever is to sign him to a 30 million - 35 million/year contract you have to assume it would have already been done.
greenfrog - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 06:13 PM EDT (#450469) #
I'm waiting to see if Springer gets dealt in a surprise move.
Glevin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 06:21 PM EDT (#450470) #
I would like Green and Bassit to be traded but probably unlikely (and dumb that it is unlikely).
scottt - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 06:32 PM EDT (#450471) #
I don't know. Vlad has had ups and down. Remember that the Yankees never extend a player before they reach free agency. Last year, Bichette looked like the one to extend. This is Vlad's second best offensive season. There's nothing wrong with a 145 OPS+ at first base. There is added risk in extending early and the player has to give the team some sort of discount or it's not worth doing. 

Also, I was wondering if they didn't want to give a massive contract to one of their two stars because the other one would have reacted negatively. Now it matters less because it's going to be a contract year.

scottt - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 06:34 PM EDT (#450472) #
Offer and demand. Wouldn't trading Bassitt reduce the return for Kikuchi?
It would see foolish to trade Bassitt and keep Kikuchi.

greenfrog - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 06:43 PM EDT (#450473) #
Ken Rosenthal writes on The Athletic, "The number of teams looking for starting pitching continues to be far greater than the number of starters actually available." At least 10 teams have some degree of interest in adding one or more SPs.

Should be a good opportunity for Atkins to obtain a decent return for Kikuchi. Hopefully a better return than the one he got for Yimi.
scottt - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 06:51 PM EDT (#450474) #
Yes, but you got teams like the Yankees who are trying to get  a guy like Jack Flaherty and trade back Nestor Cortes. Cortes is making under 4M and has one year or arbitration left. That's more appealing than Bassitt.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#450475) #
Lane Thomas to Cleveland.
greenfrog - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#450476) #
Gregor Chisholm (Toronto Star): "The Mariners reportedly had Vladimir Guerrero Jr. at the top of their wish list for this year’s trade deadline. When they found out he wasn’t available, they settled for another guy wearing the same uniform."
92-93 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:13 PM EDT (#450477) #
Kikuchi is better than Bassitt, so if you want to compete in '25 it makes sense to keep the better guy and get under the luxury tax.
greenfrog - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:17 PM EDT (#450478) #
Except that Kikuchi is a pending free agent. It's far from guaranteed that he'll return to Toronto next year.
Nigel - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:19 PM EDT (#450479) #
If it were at all possible I'd absolutely be in favour of a strategy to trade Bassitt and see if you could resign Kikutchi for a 2-3 year deal.
Glevin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:20 PM EDT (#450480) #
Kikuchi has been awful for quite a while. I don't think he or Bassit fetch much but they get something. For me, trading Bassit gets you assets and frees up his $22 million for next year to sign a different pitcher.
92-93 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:22 PM EDT (#450481) #
If Kikuchi can find a 3+ year deal despite having a QO attached then that's fine too. You pick up two draft picks and have 21MM to spend to fill Bassitt's shoes.
rotorose - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#450482) #
Best comment on today's trade (from the Sportsnet website comment list)

"At least now they have a Schreck to go with all the donkeys"
99BlueJaysWay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#450483) #
For clarity: the $4.3M figure mentioned earlier is the amount of salary still owing to Turner. It’s still unclear how much of that the Jays paid.
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#450484) #
both Bassitt and Kikuchi are good solid pitchers that project to be good solid pitchers going forward.

we're actually a bit spoiled, and don't realize what most other teams have to put up with for SP.
greenfrog - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:33 PM EDT (#450485) #
Yeah I was just looking at Bassitt's stats. He's very consistent from year to year. Eats up innings. Posts a respectable ERA. Could do a lot worse in your mid/back rotation.
mathesond - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:38 PM EDT (#450486) #
And you'd think having under contract for '25 would also have value to the team trading for him.
scottt - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:40 PM EDT (#450487) #
I don't think you get any better than Bassitt for that 22M.

Bassitt was 16-8 with a 3.60 ERA last year and he's 8-9 with a 3.78 ERA so far.
Kikuchi has been 6-7 with a 5.19 ERA  in 22, 11-6 with a 3.86 ERA last year and 4-9 with a 4.75 ERA so far.

Part of the discount on Kikuchi was carrying a bad pitcher for one year until he sorted it out.
Also, the manager has the weird tendency to follow Kikuchi with lefties and Richards who has reverse split when the opponent lineup is mostly all right bats.
I really don't want to see anymore of that.

They are things Atkins does well and things he does poorly.
His record on relievers is really bad.
And I don't think a year of control gets you that star player, probably just 4 C prospects instead of 2.

uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:44 PM EDT (#450488) #
Kikuchi to Astros.

Jake Bloss pulled from his start.
scottt - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#450489) #
Actually, I find negative comments targeting the players/prospects offensive.
The donkeys and asses are all in the media boxes.

uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:46 PM EDT (#450490) #
obviously, I'm a big fan of getting Bloss. and it sounds like more coming.
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:47 PM EDT (#450491) #
Personally, I would keep Bloss in AAA for now. But I like him quite a bit.
Kelekin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#450492) #
If true, Bloss would be a huge get.
Gerry - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:49 PM EDT (#450493) #
Bloss scouting report. Concern is that he was recently on the IL with a shoulder issue.

A strong-framed and athletic pitcher, Bloss has the broad- shouldered build of your typical innings-eater. Bloss mixes primarily a four-seam fastball, a curveball, a slider and a changeup. Bloss’ fastball sits 93-95 mph and was clocked as high as 97 while at Georgetown. Due to the spin efficiency and lower release height he’s able to create a flat plane of approach on the pitch which makes it difficult for hitters to get on plane. His primary secondary is an upper-70s curveball at 77-78 mph with heavy two-plane break. Bloss’s slider is hard at 85-87 mph with heavy cut, and he shows above-average command of the pitch. His changeup is an upper-80s offspeed with two-seam fastball movement. Bloss has fringe-average command but should develop into an average strike-thrower.
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:51 PM EDT (#450494) #
June 11, Fangraphs:

uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#450495) #
June 11, Fangraphs:

(Bloss ranked one of 2 50fv prospects in their system):

Bloss was taken 99th overall in the 2023 draft out of Georgetown after spending his first three years of collegiate ball at Lafayette College. He coasted through A-ball and was given a quick hook to Double-A after the first month of the 2024 season.

Bloss throws from a high slot that, along with his plus extension, generates significant carry on his 93-96 mph four-seamer; the pitch has a 31% miss rate so far in 2024. He also has a deep secondary mix to back up the fastball. His 76-81 mph curveball is a very vertical breaker. He’ll adjust the amount of depth on it, sometimes throwing a deep “freeze” type, while at others, he’ll shorten it up for more drastic snap action. Bloss does something similar with his slider in that he’ll throw ones with hard, two-plane shape while others are shorter, more cutter-like offerings; both shapes regularly show average teeth while flashing a tick above. Bloss’ changeup has the furthest to go to be an average weapon for him, but he’s a small school arm who we think is benefitting from pro instruction and we believe it’ll get there. The best ones he’ll throw have late diving action and a hint of fade, though he’s still prone to frequently throwing ones that have very minimal action. Bloss is a fairly explosive, whippy-armed athlete with below-average body control and frame composition. We’re skeptical the improvements he’s made as a strike-thrower in 2024 will stick, but the way his fastball plays doesn’t make that a strictly necessary aspect of his profile. He’s trending up and tracking like a mid-rotation starter.
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#450496) #
bowden says done deal.
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:56 PM EDT (#450497) #
Passan says done deal I mean.
scottt - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#450498) #
Maybe they had time to review medical reports.

Glevin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 08:00 PM EDT (#450499) #
Wow. Did not expect to get a guy like Bloss back for Kikuchi. The market is desperate. Please get more talent.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#450500) #
Exactly. Imagine what Vlad or healthy Bo would have commanded.
greenfrog - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 08:09 PM EDT (#450501) #
How much was Bloss's shoulder injury a factor in this trade?
scottt - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 08:26 PM EDT (#450503) #
Bloss is a third round pick from last year.
He pitched a bit in rookie and A ball last year, less than 19 innings.
This year, he made 4 starts in A+ ball, 2.08 ERA and then 8 starts in AA, 1.61 ERA.
He also threw 4 scoreless innings in the PCL but due to the need for starters in Houston, they promoted him early and he got hammered. 3 starts, less than 12 innings and 9 run earned.

I imagine the Jays will want him to master AAA.

uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 08:28 PM EDT (#450504) #
only the one disastrous start out of 3 so far in the bigs, but i agree i'd prefer he master AAA.
99BlueJaysWay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 08:29 PM EDT (#450505) #
FWIW, Houston fans appear to be very upset with this deal.
Kelekin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 08:32 PM EDT (#450506) #
Yeah, give Bloss time in AAA and if he looks good, get him up here in September.

On the flipside, if we trade any more starters, we're looking at Aaron Sanchez and James Kaprielian coming up and being our tank co-commanders.

I can absolutely understand Houston fans being upset by the deal - but they also are heading for less competitive years as their stars continue to age or hit free agency, with a pretty rough farm system left, so they're trying to go for it while they can. Kikuchi has had a few rough starts recently sure (though many of them he was cruising for quite a few innings before trouble), but a 3.39 xFIP certainly plays.
Glevin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 08:32 PM EDT (#450507) #
I mean, it's not really clear Kikuchi is better than Bloss right now and has 6 years less control. Fangraphs had him as #92 prospect in baseball in updated list (would make him #1 Jays prospect).
Kelekin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 08:40 PM EDT (#450508) #
They wanted a pitcher they felt they could rely on with limited options available on the market and paid the price to get one. Hess hasn't gone more than 4 IP in each of the 3 starts, so perhaps they don't deem him ready enough yet to help them out. It's certainly a lot of pressure to put on a kid drafted just lats year.

Anyway, their loss is hopefully our gain.
Marlow - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 08:40 PM EDT (#450509) #
The Jays have the 5th best chance of winning the draft lottery since Chicago and Oakland can only pick only as high as 10th. Winning the lottery would give us something to dream about during the offseson.
Kelekin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 08:51 PM EDT (#450510) #
I'll take another Holliday brother.
Glevin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 08:52 PM EDT (#450511) #
Part of me wonders if Jays are also sending back prospects to even the trade up a bit. I guess we'll see.
92-93 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 08:56 PM EDT (#450512) #
Excellent baserunning from Kiermaier there, it's good to see that he's healthy. Just please don't give him to the Yankees.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#450513) #
Two more prospects coming back to TO...
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#450514) #
part of the reason Bloss may have been in MLB is that the Astros don't see a lot of benefit to keeping pitching prospects in the PCL.
Marlow - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#450515) #
"Two more prospects coming back to TO..."

Wow, Atkins made out like bandits for this deal. Imagine if he was willing to trade Bassitt.
Kelekin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:01 PM EDT (#450516) #
@uglyone - Houston also had basically every starting pitcher on their 40-man on the injured list at the same time when he got called up. They were fairly limited and he was performing quite well at AA, so why not.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:04 PM EDT (#450517) #
Rodriguez optioned to AAA.

This FO should pivot and trade Bassit and possibly Gausman with these prices. They could have a top 10 system by tomorrow while keeping Vladdy. Of course my prerequisite is commitment to maintain top payroll which ensures they replace the traded players with new signees.
greenfrog - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#450518) #
I want to hear what Keith Law says about the trade. I don’t love that Bloss recently battled shoulder inflammation, especially after what we’ve gone through with Tiedemann and Manoah.
Marlow - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:10 PM EDT (#450519) #
"This FO should pivot and trade Bassit and possibly Gausman with these prices. They could have a top 10 system by tomorrow while keeping Vladdy. Of course my prerequisite is commitment to maintain top payroll which ensures they replace the traded players with new signees."

My dream scenario would be for them to trade Bassitt and Green. Then in the offseason, re-sign Kikuchi (he seems to like it here) as a Bassitt replacement.

Since Bichette does not seem to want to be here, get him healthy for September to prove he is ok and then auction him off to the highest bidder in the offseason.
85bluejay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:15 PM EDT (#450520) #
The jays may be sending some money to avoid the Astros avoid another tax level which may boost the Jays return package
85bluejay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#450521) #
“To help the Astros avoid another tax level”
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:25 PM EDT (#450522) #

#BlueJays are getting Jake Bloss, Joey Loperfido and Will Wagner for Yusei Kikuchi sources tell @ShiDavidi & me

Deal done

— Ben Nicholson-Smith (@bnicholsonsmith) July 30, 2024
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:27 PM EDT (#450523) #
Wow wow wow. Well done Atkins. That is a great return! Team may be better post deadline.
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#450524) #
Wagner and Loperfido are the first "old guys" we've added. at age 25, so not really prospects per se, but both have interesting enough lines to see MLB upside even if it's just as role players.

greenfrog - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:29 PM EDT (#450525) #
Fangraphs:

A seventh-round senior sign out of Duke in 2021, Loperfido has done nothing but perform since breaking into the pro ranks. He covered three levels in 2023 and finished at Triple-A Sugar Land, posting a cumulative OPS of .880 with 25 homers and 27 steals in 31 attempts. In 2024, he hit 10 homers in the first half of April, made his big league debut, and has been up and down depending on the health of Houston’s other outfielders.

Loperfido hits out of a crouched, square stance with his hands set up high, and has a direct, adjustable path that sprays contact to all-fields. He can really elevate pitches with authority in the lower quadrants of the zone and hits the ball hard with meaningful consistency. He swings through a lot of in-zone fastballs and is striking out about 30% of the time at Triple-A. A lack of consistent contact is what stands between Loperfido and an everyday grade.

A big part of why we’re this high on him despite his hit tool issues is Loperfido’s very versatile defensive profile. He has the ability to play all three outfield positions at an average level, while also showing he can handle first and second-base at a passable level. The way Loperfido can move the ball around the infield at first base is actually quite special. While he does many things at an average to solid level, there’s no single aspect of his bat or defensive ability that grades out as plus; this is a profile where the sum is greater than the raw parts. Loperfido projects as a high-end bench utility player for a World Series contender and could sneak into the lineup every day for lesser clubs.
scottt - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:30 PM EDT (#450526) #
Kikuchi has amazing stuff but not a ton of control.

Fangraphs gave Bloss a 55 curveball, a 60 slider and a 45/55 change.
They give him a 55/60 fastball with 40/45 command.

They have the fastball at 93-96 topping at 98mph.

The ratings from MLB pipeline are a bit lower but seems to be from last year or last spring.

Let's just hope he's healthy next year.

uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:31 PM EDT (#450527) #
All in all this was quite a haul for just free agents. IMO we've added 4 legit prospects (Bloss, Clase, Coffey, Paulino) and 4 worthwhile borderline prospects (Loperfido, Wagner, Pinango, Schreck). Pretty great for guys who have no value beyond this year.
85bluejay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:32 PM EDT (#450528) #
Very happy the Jays are getting more LHH into the system
greenfrog - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:32 PM EDT (#450529) #
More Fangraphs:

Wagner missed significant time in 2023 due to a hamate injury that ultimately required surgery, but prior to that, he slashed .337/.420/.518 over 286 plate appearances split primarily between Double- and Triple-A. We think he can hit, just not enough to be a slam dunk everyday second baseman, and he lacks the defensive versatility to play a utility role. Wagner hits out of a square, balanced setup, with a quick, compact stroke that he uses to spray contact to all fields. He’s limited his strikeouts to 18% in pro ball while drawing walks 13.5% of the time. Wagner has moved around the dirt as a professional, with second base clearly being where he has the best defensive chops; he doesn’t have the arm to play the left side of the infield. We like Wagner as an above-replacement player and a high-priority upper-level depth option.
Marlow - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:36 PM EDT (#450530) #
They add 2 more left handed bats. They are a little old. Joey Loperfido is already on their big league roster. Will Wagner is a 2B/3B at AAA. Very good deal. It will be better if Bloss can turn into a big league pitcher.
Nigel - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:37 PM EDT (#450531) #
I continue to think Francis could give this club something approaching league average innings. Hopefully he gets regular starts for the rest of the season to see.
Kelekin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:37 PM EDT (#450532) #
Happy birthday to our new prospect, Will Wagner.

Wagner has an absolutely absurd 92% Z-Contact rate, 69% O-Contact rate, 14.9% whiff rate, while rarely striking out. His Max EV is 110.8 (good) and 90th percentile EV is 103.8 (above average). The knock on him is he has abysmal barrel, sweet spot, and hard hit rates, and is especially struggling to make meaningful contact on fastballs (so he'll fit right in).

Loperfido's almost the inverse - incredible barrel rates, 90th percentile EV at 106.2, and max EV of 113.9. A ton of swing and miss in his game and terrible against breaking balls.
Glevin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:39 PM EDT (#450533) #
This is an insane haul for two months of Kikuchi. I'm in disbelief.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:39 PM EDT (#450534) #
Anybody else get the sense these trades are paving the way for an IKF trade shortly or Bo in the off season? Seems like a lot of versatility in the position players to give the FO the option to have flexibility in free agency. Example, go after Bergman but if that fails go after Adames etc. with Horwitz, Clement, Schneider, Loperfido, Wagner and IKF there seems to be a lot of super utility-lite guys.
finch - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#450535) #
Great return from Houston. Impressed with this trade.
scottt - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#450536) #
Loperfido has played 38 games in  left field for Houston and he still got 2 options after this year.

Suddenly, the Jays have a lot of left bats.

uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:43 PM EDT (#450537) #
Kiermaier and Richards the last impending free agents left.
scottt - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#450538) #
Technically, Bloss is already a big league pitcher, but I get you.
Spifficus - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#450539) #
Well, I'm pretty impressed with that return. It would tempt me to see what the market is for Green and Bassitt as well... Who am I kidding, I'd already be asking around.
scottt - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:50 PM EDT (#450540) #
Really need to move Kiermaier to give the young guys some playing time.

Moving Richards would be a bonus but I don't know if we can fit any more high minors position players.

BlueJayWay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:50 PM EDT (#450541) #
With a seller's market for pitchers like this, you'd have trade Green and strongly consider moving Bassitt.
greenfrog - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#450542) #
Houston fans are outraged at the trade.
SK in NJ - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#450543) #
Wow that's an impressive return for 2 months of Kikuchi. Definitely feel like the Jays should pivot from their 2025 mindset and trade Bassitt. This trade market favors the selling teams, clearly. Hopefully the Jays aren't done.
Kelekin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:56 PM EDT (#450544) #
Say what you will about Atkins, but when he isn't trading for guys on his statistical model's "must buy" list, he does a solid job.
greenfrog - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:57 PM EDT (#450545) #
The Athletic writers grades for the Blue Jays on the Kikuchi trade: A, A, A-
scottt - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 09:58 PM EDT (#450546) #
It seems like a huge haul, but there's a lot of guys who needs to go on the 40 roster or who could be lost in the rule 5 draft. The Jays can only absorb so many bodies.

It looks like a great return to go for it again next year.
They might not need to sign another starter.

Need to find a backup catcher, 2 high leverage relievers and a clean up bat who can preferably play DH, before next April.

uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#450547) #
I see a lot of excited hype for Loperfido.....and as much as I'm hyped by all these trades including this one, I really don't see where this 'top prospect' kind of excitement is coming from tbh.

Then again, I guess he could turn out like Teoscar did so who knows.
Kelekin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 10:07 PM EDT (#450548) #
I think he's the exact type of player that is exciting on paper but also is more likely to be a bust than not. Players who can only hit fastballs and strike out at a 28% clip at age 25 in the PCL are far from guaranteed successes.
Spifficus - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 10:09 PM EDT (#450549) #
I don't think he's any top prospect or anything. I'm just impressed that for a rental you can get a significant starting pitching prospect and 2 useful pieces / older prospects that could become 2nd division regulars. Those can be quite useful players filling out a roster. The key thing is going to be using all the playing time to sort out what you have. As scottt mentioned, there are only so many 40-man roster spots available.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 10:18 PM EDT (#450550) #
I see Wagner and Loperfido as useful pieces with floors of what Cavan Biggio was. That's exciting as the second and third piece. The farm system has been so poor that these injections of talent and youth are exciting.
scottt - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 10:21 PM EDT (#450551) #
Wow. Just saw Nate Pearson's debut in a Cubs uniform.
The manager nearly got tossed. 
99BlueJaysWay - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 10:27 PM EDT (#450552) #
So, I feel compelled to ask: has this past draft and trade deadline changed anyone’s opinion about Atkins??
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 10:28 PM EDT (#450553) #
My opinion won't change until he:

1) gets more power in the line up

2) resign Vlad and Bo or trade them before their last year

3) change the manager
Nigel - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 10:31 PM EDT (#450554) #
A very enjoyable Game 2 of the doubleheader. Solid pitching, great defense and a sprinkling of timely hitting.
Glevin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 10:31 PM EDT (#450555) #
Loperfido is definitely interesting. 13 HR's in 189 PAs in AAA is something. He was also absurd in AA last year. Probably a 4th/5th outfielder type but there is huge upside there if he can cut down K's a bit.
scottt - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 10:34 PM EDT (#450556) #
This is quite different from the 2018/2019 deadline.
Maybe the market has changed.
Maybe the Jays have players that are in high demand.
Maybe it's the focus on getting MLB ready players who might be easier to get than good low level prospects who don't need to be protected for years.

uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 10:35 PM EDT (#450557) #
here's how new guys slot in amongst our AAA hitters this year:

* UT Horwitz (26): 259pa, 17.0b%, 15.8k%, .401bip, .335avg, .179iso, 158wrc+
* 1B Tirotta (25): 196pa, 15.8b%, 26.0k%, .323bip, .261avg, .248iso, 140wrc+
* RF Lukes (29): 192pa, 9.9b%, 15.1k%, .375bip, .333avg, .146iso, 133wrc+
* IF Jimenez (23): 226pa, 13.3b%, 15.0k%, .300bip, .271avg, .160iso, 130wrc+
* UT Barger (24): 249pa, 16.1b%, 19.3k%, .299bip, .260avg, .206iso, 126wrc+
* IF Wagner (25): 324pa, 16.7b%, 10.2k%, .329bip, .307avg, .123iso, 122wrc+
* OF Loperfido (25): 189pa, 11.1b%, 28.0k%, .316bip, .272avg, .296iso, 121wrc+
* OF Berroa (25): 239pa, 12.1b%, 23.8k%, .373bip, .296avg, .160so, 121wrc+
* UT Martinez (22): 269pa, 8.9b%, 24.2k%, .288bip, .260avg, .264iso, 119wrc+
* 2B Cancel (27): 100pa, 14.0b%, 30.0k%, .300bip, .244avg, .267iso, 119wrc+
* 3B DeLosSantos (26): 90pa, 16.7b%, 21.1k%, .286bip, .243avg, .157iso, 114wrc+
* C Serven (29): 159pa, 16.4b%, 28.9k%, .386bip, .265avg, .114iso, 109wrc+
* CF Clase (22): 285pa, 14.4b%, 25.6k%, .338bip, .269avg, .206iso, 108wrc+
metafour - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 10:36 PM EDT (#450558) #
The Blue Jays are a think-tank organization. I have no idea why everyone keeps bringing up Atkins as if he is making moves in a vacuum alone. Even before this failure of a season he wouldn't have been making decisions alone. Now that this team is "re-tooling" and his job is in serious question, I would be even more shocked if he was being left alone to make these trades. You guys need to remember that this FO has former Astros GM James Click sitting in it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he has been granted more decision making power by Shapiro with these trades.
scottt - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 10:38 PM EDT (#450559) #
Loperfido's upside seems to be the ability to play great defense all over.

"The way Loperfido can move the ball around the infield at first base is actually quite special."

I'm not sure what this actually mean.

BlueJaysLifer - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 10:41 PM EDT (#450560) #
Given what this team is due to the horrible drafting. Yes. He’s totally worth a $50M overpay
BlueJaysLifer - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 10:47 PM EDT (#450561) #
Ugly I could agree more. Who is the face of this and going to sell tickets? You really are going to see Schneider and Clement? Or Varsho strike out 3 times?
Marc Hulet - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 10:52 PM EDT (#450562) #
Jays got good value for Kikuchi, Jansen, and Garcia. I don't believe any of the players are outstanding. Clase and Bloss have the best chance to be regulars although Bloss is more of a No. 4 arm... Loperfido is a power bench bat. Wagner is similar to Horwitz. Coffey is very interesting and Batista is a wildcard. The others are probably all org fillers.

But look at Houston's scouting. All three players the Jays got were four-year/senior college sognees... and under-slot picks. That's seriously impressive drafting (and development).
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 11:17 PM EDT (#450563) #
Vlad up to 12th MLB with a 154wrc+.

3 guys tied at 155 keeping him out of the top 10.
rikley - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 11:19 PM EDT (#450564) #
Vladdy looks like he is playing a video game right now! Wow!
Glevin - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 11:19 PM EDT (#450565) #
Love this Vlad. Schneider looks lost. Is he fine sending him back to AAA to get things figured out now that Jays have guys to call up.
uglyone - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 11:24 PM EDT (#450566) #
Vladdy up to 10th with a 155wrc+ now.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 11:42 PM EDT (#450567) #
Springer close to .700
Hodgie - Monday, July 29 2024 @ 11:52 PM EDT (#450568) #
Pay the man already! I get the risks, but I’m not interested in comparing Guerrero to the long list of late 20’s/early 30’s hitters that signed regrettable extensions. Vlad is younger than the just acquired Wagner and 2 months older than Loperfido.
Glevin - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 12:42 AM EDT (#450569) #
I like these moves (Pearson only one I'm not high on) but I still don't see how this changes anything for next year. More depth? Sure but Jays already has decent depth on offense and depth isn't the issue, top talent is. They don't have an ace or even a #2 starter right now. The bullpen is a mess and apart from Vlad, the offense is pretty bad. It also doesn't change that after next year you have Vlad and Bo both as free agents. I see a much better path to 2026 now but I fear that going all in on 2025 will set the Jays back years.
Polite Nate - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 01:08 AM EDT (#450570) #
I don't think they're going all-in for 2025. I think they're going roll-the-dice-on-a-wild-card 2025, and that's fine. I don't get the rush to squeeze extra juice from a deadline trade of players that still have control for next year. Put together a good team, and if it doesn't work out, sell your rentals and get ready for next year. Tampa has to do that sort of thing because they're poor, and yeah great they are very successful "for a poor team" but it's not like they have any actual World Series wins to show for it. No trophies out there for best salary-to-WAR ratio.
I'd make an exception for relievers, though, untrustworthy backstabbers that they all are. I'd be very tempted to see what I could get for Green, for sure.

Also, I bet Bassitt's extra year of salary actually hurts his trade value as a deadline deal more than helps.
jgadfly - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 01:16 AM EDT (#450571) #
Appear to be concentrating on rebuilding their AAA team to recent standards of success ... ie: not very good ... while preparing for major losses at the 2025-26 Rule 5 drafts ... It's dumpster diving with the ability to grab three different entities from the same dumpster aka economizing
uglyone - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 01:35 AM EDT (#450572) #
2025

* CF Varsho 28
* RF Loperfido 26
* LF Schneider 26
* 3B Falefa 30
* SS Bichette 27
* 2B Horwitz 27
* 1B Guerrero 26
* DH Springer 35
* C Kirk 26

* CF Berroa 26
* RF Clase 23
* LF Roden 25
* 3B Barger 25
* SS Jimenez 24
* 2B Martinez 23
* 1B Tirotta 26
* DH Wagner 26
* C Clarke 27



* SP Gausman 34
* SP Bassitt 36
* SP Berrios 31
* SP Rodriguez 28
* SP Manoah 27
* SP Bloss 24
uglyone - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 02:26 AM EDT (#450573) #

* UT Cancel 28
* OF Lukes 30
* IF De Los Santos 27
* C Serven 30
Ducey - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 04:32 AM EDT (#450574) #
MLB.com Jays top 30 prospects has the new players at:

3 Bloss (Kikuchi)
8 Clase (Garcia)
20 Paulino (Jansen)
21 Wagner (Kikuchi)
26 Pinango (Pearson)
28 Coffey (Jansen)
29 Schreck (Turner)

Unranked:
Sharp (Garcia)
Rivera (Pearson)
Batista (Jansen)
Loperfido (Kikuchi)
mendocino - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 06:11 AM EDT (#450575) #
Trades not added to Jays Top 30 yet
Justin Turner and cash to Seattle
OF RJ Schreck BA- NR

Yusei Kikuchi to Houston
RHP Jake Bloss BA- #2
OF Joey Loperfido BA- #5
2B Will Wagner BA- #19

Nate Pearson to Chicago Cubs
SS Josh Rivera BA- NR
OF Yohendrick Pinango BA- #17

Danny Jansen to Boston
SS Cutter Coffey BA- NR
SS Eddinson Paulino BA- #18
RHP Gilberto Batista BA- NR

Yimi García to Seattle
OF Jonatan Clase BA- #13
C Jacob Sharp BA- NR

draft picks added
3. Trey Yesavage RHP
6. Khal Stephen RHP
9. Johnny King LHP
17. Carson Messina RHP
24. Sean Keys 3B
scottt - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 06:25 AM EDT (#450576) #
Loperfido might have played too many games in Houston to be ranked.

Bloss, Clase and Loperfido are already on the 40 roster
Paulino is at AA and went unprotected this year.
Same with Pinango.
Wagner will need protection this year.
Palmegiani as well.

Schreck and Rivera are rule 5 eligible in 25.
Sharp and Coffey in 26.
Batista in 27.

They can kick Lukes out now, he's 30 in AAA.
They don't have a use for Cam Eden anymore.

Would be nice to get Hagen Danner up.
Same with Pardinho.
Those are 2 possible bullpen pieces or rule 5 crunch casualties.

scottt - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 06:34 AM EDT (#450577) #
It does feel like they have favored trade partners. Houston, Seattle, Cleveland even Boston.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 06:53 AM EDT (#450578) #
Law has a good writeup of the trade on The Athletic. He says the Blue Jays’ return “might be the best value any seller has received so far at the deadline.” In summary:

#4 or 5 SP upside for Bloss

Loperfido needs to make some adjustments to MLB pitching, could be a starting outfielder if he can stick in CF

Wagner can “definitely hit” and is “at least a quality bench bat who can back up third, second, and first.”
uglyone - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 12:45 PM EDT (#450619) #
I think Bloss' upside is a bit higher than that.
Hodgie - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 03:33 PM EDT (#450644) #
In case you missed it, from the Baltimore broadcast last night.

#paytheman

Mike Green - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#450646) #
Since the All-Star break, Vlad has a line of .512/.563/1.146 with 5 doubles, 7 homers, 6 walks and 5 strikeouts.  En fuego doesn't do it justice.  It isn't often that a player will have a higher batting average than BABIP over a noticeable period, but that is the case with Vlad.  His .512 batting average has very little luck, if any, about it. 
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#450647) #
The Blue Jays are going to look pretty silly if (having decided not to trade him at the July 2024 deadline) they fail to extend Vladdy. Especially if the Yankees sign him to a long-term deal after 2025.
Gerry - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#450658) #
Paolo Espino is in Baltimore and will likely start in Kikuchi's spot tomorrow.

Joey Loperfido is headed to Baltimore and will also be activated tomorrow. De Los Santos could have a short stay in the majors.
Gerry - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#450672) #
Yerry Rodriguez who was optioned yesterday is back to take IKF's slot.
92-93 - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#450689) #
Schneider is out of the lineup tonight despite the selloff. Oh, the humanity!
Gerry - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#450699) #
Joey Loperfido has been activated for tonights game, taking KK's spot I assume.
James W - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 06:21 PM EDT (#450700) #
IKF was on the injured list, so was not taking an active roster slot.
James W - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#450708) #
To be fair, not even the MLB Gameday site knows what the Jays roster is. They list 28 players, including Kiermaier, for tonight's game. I think Yerry Rodriguez is taking Richards' roster spot, but they still have 14 pitchers listed, a remnant of game 2 of the doubleheader last night.
Michael - Tuesday, July 30 2024 @ 11:37 PM EDT (#450730) #
Looks like a real step down in the corner outfield defense today with Varsho in CF and Springer DH.

I know some were claiming Springer hasn't been good at anything this year, but I've actually thought his defense this year in RF has been quite good. Statcast has him at +1 out above average (I think he was higher about a month ago, but that is still above average). Varsho has fallen to only 5th best in baseball (behind Semien, Young, Siani, Whitt Jr) for Outs Above Average but more time in CF may give him more opportunities. Nearing retirement non-full time player KK is 11th best in baseball.

Of the 10 jays with enough attempts to be qualified the only negatives are Schneider at -2 and Vlad at -9. If you drop the qualified to 10 attempts then you get Barger at -4, Turner at -2, and Jimenez at -1.
scottt - Wednesday, July 31 2024 @ 08:55 AM EDT (#450735) #
Actually, against Corbin Burnes, Schneider might just have dodged getting beaned on the head with a 98mph sinker. Kirk and Clement didn't enjoy themselves much yesterday.
Ducey - Wednesday, July 31 2024 @ 09:28 AM EDT (#450740) #
So, deadline to sign draft picks is today, right?

Not signing Yesavage would take the air out of a good trade deadline. Its surprising that Grudzielanek has not signed either.
Gerry - Wednesday, July 31 2024 @ 11:57 AM EDT (#450752) #
Deadline is tomorrow.

It could be that Jays want to pay him the slot value and his agent wants the Jays excess as well.
Nigel - Wednesday, July 31 2024 @ 01:13 PM EDT (#450761) #
I've been pretty down on Varsho's offensive profile since acquisition but even I don't think he can be as bad as he has been since May 1. Surely there needs to be a clean out in the dugout if for no reason other than to give the opportunity for a fresh start on offence for Varsho, Kirk, etc.
GabrielSyme - Wednesday, July 31 2024 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#450765) #
I hope Baltimore is adequately grateful to an Espino/Yerry getaway day. I also hope the Jays don't see anything concerning in Bloss and we get to see him rather than this show every fifth day from here out.

If we don't show a surprising comeback in the next few innings, I hope Schneider gives De Los Santos gets an at-bat.

It's nice to see Barger have a little more success. The challenge for the remainder of this season and 2025 will be to see who can be solid regulars in the group of Schneider, Barger, Clement, Jimenez and Horwitz along with new arrivals Loperfido, Clase and Wagner (and Orelvis next year, after his suspension is over).
Ducey - Wednesday, July 31 2024 @ 03:33 PM EDT (#450767) #
They may want to keep Bloss at AAA. He has only 4 IP pitched in AAA and 11 IP in MLB.

When asked about it Atkins said they would consult with the player. Not sure what that means.
scottt - Wednesday, July 31 2024 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#450768) #
I don't expect Martin-Grudzielanek to sign. His mother was telling people that he wants at least 500K.
She thinks he has a chance to go in the first round next year if he's healthy.
Chuck - Wednesday, July 31 2024 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#450769) #
I hope Baltimore is adequately grateful to an Espino/Yerry getaway day.

Probably not so much Yerry who fractured Westburg's hand.

greenfrog - Wednesday, July 31 2024 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#450770) #
Atkins said they would consult with the player

It's always best to consult with the Bloss before making an important decision.
scottt - Wednesday, July 31 2024 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#450771) #
Atkins said Bloss will get some "breathing room" in Buffalo before he's called up.

"Our ideal outcome is that he's helping us this year and growing and developing here in Toronto.
We're going to get to know him, make sure that he's in the strongest possible spot."

There's really no reason to put him up against division rivals, exceptionally not Baltimore at this point in time. He's already made his debut against the Orioles.

The players are trying to win games but the manager and GM shouldn't be.


bpoz - Wednesday, July 31 2024 @ 05:38 PM EDT (#450775) #
I think delay Bloss in Dunedin then put him in Buffalo and get him up as a starter or long man. And most importantly don't burn an option.
pooks137 - Wednesday, July 31 2024 @ 05:48 PM EDT (#450778) #
 think delay Bloss in Dunedin then put him in Buffalo and get him up as a starter or long man. And most importantly don't burn an option.

If I'm not mistaken, the Jays chose to burn an option the moment they assigned him to the minors instead of adding him to the 26-man roster.

I believe there is some rule that an option doesn't count if a player is sent to the minors for less than 20 days in total.

So unless the Jays call him up immediately within the next 3 weeks and keep him in the rotation for the rest of the year (or put him on the major league IL where he'll accumulate service time without playing), they're going to have to burn an option this year one way or another.

bpoz - Wednesday, July 31 2024 @ 06:22 PM EDT (#450780) #
Thanks for the clarification pooks137.
scottt - Wednesday, July 31 2024 @ 08:55 PM EDT (#450782) #
A player starts with 3 options. I'm pretty sure Houston had already optioned him this year, so there should be 2 remaining no matter what the Jays do.

Having him in the minors instead of Toronto affects service time, but it's not that important for a pitcher.

electric carrot - Wednesday, July 31 2024 @ 11:46 PM EDT (#450788) #
"It's always best to consult with the Bloss before making an important decision."


blest to consult with the bloss especially when alternative embloyment options are bleak.
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