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Remember when the Tigers were good? They won 95 games in 2011, behind MVP level performances from Miguel Cabrera and Justin Verlander (who actually won the award.) They weren't a flash in the pan. They went all the way to the World Series the following season. They didn't win it, of course, and they then fell short in the post-season in 2013 and 2014 although they posted a pair of 90 win seasons.

The trouble began in 2015. Max Scherzer was gone, signing with Washington as a free agent. Austin Jackson had been lost in the trade that brought David Price to town, and Anthony Gose was not up to the task of replacing Jackson in centre field. Nick Castellanos' bat was not yet productive enough to make up for his defense at third base. DH Victor Martinez got old all of a sudden - he'd been the MVP runner-up the previous season, but at age 36 he hit just .245/.301/.366. An injury kept Justin Verlander off the mound until mid-June. They were sitting at .500 at the All-Star Break, 9 games behind the first place Royals, and Dave Dombrowski started selling his pending free agents. Yoenis Cespedes went to the Mets for a pitching prospect (Michael Fullmer); closer Joakim Soria went to Pittsburgh for a backup infielder; David Price went to the Blue Jays for three LH pitching prospects. And four days later, on 4 August, Dombrowski himself was relieved of his duties as the Detroit GM.

Some of us wondered briefly if Dombrowski might wind up in Toronto. Team president Paul Beeston was ready to shuffle off into the sunset and GM Alex Anthopoulos was obviously on his last legs. Rogers had to be looking for replacements, surely. Of course, the Blue Jays were about to embark on the best month in franchise history, the Red Sox would hire Dombrowski two weeks later, and the Blue Jays hired Mark Shapiro to fill Beeston's shoes at the end of the month.

The Tigers bounced back somewhat in 2016 - Verlander had a strong season, Fullmer was Rookie of the Year - but the bottom fell out, completely, in 2017. Miguel Cabrera and Ian Kinsler got old, all at once. And despite solid work from Verlander and Fullmer, they had by far the worst pitching in the major leagues. Oh, it was an abomination. So Dombrowski's replacement, Al Avila, began selling what he could. J.D.Martinez was a pending free agent - he went to Arizona in mid July for three infielders who never would play regularly in the majors. At the end of the month Alex Avila and Justin Wilson went to the Cubs for Jeimer Candelario and Isaac Paredes. And at the end of August, Avila made the biggest moves of all. Left fielder Justin Upton had a player option at the end of the season - he was in the midst of what would be the best season of his career, and he finished it in Anaheim. The Tigers received pitching prospect Grayson Long, whose remaining professional career consisted of one game for Detroit's AA team in Erie. That same day, Avila traded Justin Verlander - who was under contract through 2019 - to Houston for Jake Rogers, Daz Cameron, and Franklin Perez. That dropped the bottom out completely - they finished up 64-98 and were rewarded with the first pick in the 2018 draft. Good news, right? After all, they had obtained Verlander with the second pick back in 2004. So they selected another RH college pitcher. Casey Mize, out of Auburn, probably isn't going to have Verlander's career.

Well, it wasn't all that great a crop that year. But the Tigers duplicated their 2017 64-98 record in 2018. Unfortunately, they were so bad they didn't really have anything to sell at the deadline. And they had to settle for the fifth pick in the 2019 draft, which meant that Adley Rutschmann and Bobby Witt Jr were gone before their turn came around. They did end up with outfielder Riley Greene, who's still just 23 and made the All-Star game this year, but probably isn't going to be a franchise changing player.

And then, they got really bad. Really, really bad. Sixteen years earlier, the Tigers had lost more games than any team in AL history. The 2019 team gave that non-performance a run for its money. They were a wretched 47-114, which at least guaranteed they'd get the first pick the following June. They didn't have much to sell, but with Nick Castellanos approaching free agency, they sent him to the Cubs for Alex Lange. They also unloaded closer Shane Greene, in exchange for no one that would ever amount to anything.

They had the first overall pick in the draft, for the second time in three years, and this time they came away with Spencer Torkelson.  In 2021, with the third overall pick, they chose high school pitcher Jackson Jobe, who has now made it to AA where he's pitching very well. At least one of their draft picks began to pay off. That was southpaw Tarik Skubal, taken in the 9th round back in 2018, the 255th players chosen. Didn't need to tank for him.

What does it all mean? Why, what Joaquin always used to say. Youneverknow.

Matchups

Fri 19 July - Flaherty (6-5, 3.13) vs Bassitt (8-7, 3.52)
Sat 20 July - Olson (4-8, 3.30) vs Kikuchi (4-8, 4.42)
Sun 21 July - Montero (1-2, 5.47) vs Gausman (7-8, 4.50)

Detroit at Toronto, July 19-21 | 108 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
uglyone - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#449637) #
Apple TV only tonight.
Glevin - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 06:51 PM EDT (#449640) #
Great news if true. From Morosi. The Blue Jays are expected to consider trade offers for players under contract beyond 2024, not merely those on expiring contracts.

A strong contingent of scouts will be in Toronto tonight for the Chris Bassitt-Jack Flaherty matchup."
99BlueJaysWay - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 07:53 PM EDT (#449641) #
I saw Votto was scratched. Maybe a Turner deal close to fruition? Or wishful thinking ?
greenfrog - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#449642) #
Bassitt not helping his trade value here. But that’s the way the season has gone for the Blue Jays.
Kelekin - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 07:56 PM EDT (#449643) #
Wishful thinking, Votto tweaked his ankle.
John Northey - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 08:32 PM EDT (#449645) #
Seems like everywhere is going nuts on the idea of a Bo trade to the Dodgers. Claiming every team sees him as the guy he was before 2024 so high value could be had. If so then I say go for it. Get Dalton Rushing (C) from the Dodgers and Josue De Paula (LF) (their 2 top 100 prospects) FanGraphs has them as a 50 and a 45+ respectively so that would make sense for 1 1/2 years of Bo. The Jays need to get some 50's in the system. Pre-Season the Dodgers had 6 guys at 50+ (others are River Ryan P, Diego Cartaya C, Thayron Liranzo C, Kyle Hurt P, Joendry Vargas SS) Jays 2 (Tiedemann & Orelvis). I figure they'll be willing to trade at least 1 of those 3 quality catching prospects.
uglyone - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 08:55 PM EDT (#449647) #
won't be trading Bo this year now.
soupman - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 09:00 PM EDT (#449648) #
I wouldn't do that deal even if I wasn't planning on competing next year. Fangraphs thinks De Paula is a 20 hitter...he has 6HR this year across 2 levels and none at high-A yet. At the risk of one day looking back and eating these words: i doubt this guy is what the Jays need now or in the foreseeable future.
Jacob - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 09:20 PM EDT (#449649) #
A few weeks ago I had been thinking through a fire sale that involved trading Bo, Vlad, Gausman and Jansen. The Jays have such a lack of pitching and catching depth that they need to do a big restock. Additionally they could use a young impact bat.

Part of the scheme was to unload Bo and his remaining salary this year and next to the Dodgers for Daulton Rushing (C), River Ryan (P), and Gavin Lux (2B). Not sure any team watching his calf issues would trade for him now.
John Northey - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 09:21 PM EDT (#449650) #
uglyone - yeah, I think you are right there. Can't see an extension or trade happening this winter either now. If he can't stay healthy in 2024 he can't be traded or extended - who'd take that kind of risk? Well, maybe the Angels as they are known for doing dumb things (see Vernon Wells, signing Rendon long term, 5 years with LAA 22 HR 115 RBI vs 34 HR 126 RBI his last year in Washington, 2 more years on his horrid deal).

Sigh. Who'd have thunk it. Pre 2024 I'd have expected Bo to be the most likely to perform at his norm (120-130 OPS+) vs anyone else on the team and to stay healthy.
greenfrog - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#449651) #
I wonder if anyone might be willing to acquire Springer in a trade. He's been pretty good over the last month or so (167 wRC+ since June 19). He could be a good addition for a team with postseason aspirations that needs a right fielder.
scottt - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#449652) #
Bo had leg injuries in 20 and 23 and now 24.
Jacob - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#449653) #
Makes me think back to when Jays didn't get much for Donaldson in 2018 possibly because of his calf injuries.
scottt - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#449654) #
The Jays still have a solid rotation.
You don't do a fire sale to restock the pen.

Jansen was worth 2.9 WAR in 22, but never more than 1.6 WAR otherwise.
It's not like he can't be replaced--or resigned.

scottt - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 09:59 PM EDT (#449655) #
Springer has 2 more years left at near 25M.
I doubt that excites many teams.
The Jays could move him for sure if they retain a part of his salary but they are not doing that.

Jacob - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#449656) #
Bassitt is 35 and Guasman is 33 this season. Both are pitching alright but might be more like #3 and #4-5 next season. Need to get some young, good depth as the eam probably needs 7-8 starters to contribute decent starter level innings. Tiedemann might be a reliever, Barriera is too far away and there seems little ready at AA and AAA. I would love to see the Jays get 2 or 3 50FV+ pitchers but that's a big ask. Would probably require unloading one or two of the current starters which works against reloading for next season. That or trading Vlad, which also works against contending next year. The minor league talent seems a big issue for the Jays.
lexomatic - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#449657) #
Re Jacob's post on Donaldson: old Branch Rickey had a saying:" Better a year too early than a year too late. "
My feeling on Bichette is informed by that.
scottt - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#449658) #
Someone could blame the turf and figure that Bo is more likely to stay healthy playing at second base.
scottt - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 10:12 PM EDT (#449659) #
They aren't going to build a team around young pitchers.
I think Detroit tried to do that.
The Rays have done a really nice job with young pitchers but at any given time they have a full rotation on the IL.
Let's have a look right now.
60IL: Shane McClanahan, Drew Rasmussen, Jeffrey Springs and, wonder of wonder, Jacob Waguespack.
15IL: Richard Lovelady.
Plus Brendan McKay is on the milb IL with a whole bunch of guys I'm not familiar with (Blake Brown, Conor Dryer, Jack Snider, Alex Cook, Over Galue (great name), Ian Leatherman and Junior William.

greenfrog - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 10:30 PM EDT (#449661) #
I go back and forth, but my current feeling is that the front office should start trading controllable players and commencing a rebuild. I agree with Jacob that the rotation doesn’t look that strong, with the front three getting older and Kikuchi gone and the lack of depth on the farm.

It may actually be the front office’s trademark caution that spurs them to start making trades. They won’t want to get left with a non-contender and few valuable trade chips next summer (repeat of 2017).
Jacob - Friday, July 19 2024 @ 10:31 PM EDT (#449662) #
Yeah, I would advocate for getting younger on the current roster which gives the new GM time to rebuild the minors. Something like dealing Gausman (and his full salaries paid) and Kikuchi for Daulton Rushing (C), Bobby Miller (SP) and a currently injured starter that can contribute next year like Tony Gonsolin or Emmet Sheehan. Guys that can play in the majors for next year plus another two or three. Nobody wants to see a full rebuild, especially around risky pitching prospects.
Eephus - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 12:33 AM EDT (#449663) #
Can't even get a feel good Votto story out of this retched season. Bah. 2004 was worse in so many ways... but teenage me never just stopped watching or caring despite that carnage. The slow motion footballs to the groin are similar (which makes me George C. Scott I suppose).

These Blue Jays... they're just not in any kind of a good spot. For optimism's sake... the 2005 team did impressively bounce back into modest respectability. Not playoff contending respectability but... well, yeah. 
John Northey - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 01:43 AM EDT (#449664) #
To me the key is to not do anything too stupid. IE: if you sign Vlad or Bo long term not to do it in a way that could cripple future payroll flexibility (ie: no $400 mil deal for one guy). That of course removes Soto from the mix, but so be it. For payroll tax purposes next year is at $141 mil right now, pre Vlad, Romano, Varsho, Kirk, Swanson, Cabrera, Pearson (all arbitration eligible thus raises). Plus, of course, any replacements for Jansen/Kikuchi/KK/Garcia/Richards (or resigning them). Safe to say Vlad is going to be around $30 mil for 2025 ($19.9 this year) unless he slumps something fierce. Romano will be about $10 mil (not back most likely until September, not much time to 'fix' his terrible stats this year). Varsho should be about $10 mil (raise from $5.65), Kirk around $5 mil (from $2.8), Swanson around $3 mil ($2.75 this), Cabrera around $2 ($1.5 this). So I'd guesstimate $60 mil for those guys pushing payroll to $200 mil, leaving about $40 mil before hitting tax levels (eyeshot for Soto, or resign all of Jansen/Kikuchi/Garcia/Richards). I probably am missing something but that seems about right to me. Oh yeah, plus minimum salary for the rest of the team (Horwitz, Schneider, whoever else).

That could work out, or could be a last place disaster again, but I'd expect a lot more like 85 or so wins without Soto, closer to 90 with. A lot depends on massive variables like Manoah, Kirk hitting more like 2022 instead of 2023/24, etc. If they trade Bassitt I expect them to go hard after one of the free agent pitchers this winter (given their track record on signing starters I wouldn't fear it).
Glevin - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 06:55 AM EDT (#449666) #
No similarities for me between Bo and Donaldson situations except bad luck. The 2017 Jays were not good and it was clear to most of us that they should have traded any assets they could. Threading the needle was dumb and even though Donaldson getting so hurt was bad luck, they shouldn't have been holding on to him anyway. For Bo, the Jays made the playoffs the last 3 years. They were projected as a playoff team almost everywhere. Bo had two years to free agency. The Jays weak point was their hitting and Bo was easily one of their best hitters. Trading him made no sense. Not similar at all.
scottt - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 07:18 AM EDT (#449667) #
There are no chances that they overpay for home grown talent.
Bichette is way too risky now and always needed to move away from shortstop.
A streak of soft tissue injuries affecting his right leg calf/knee/quad is certainly concerning.
They can QO Guerrero and sign him out of free agency and it won't cost 400M unless he has an MVP year in 2025 and that wouldn't be the worse thing.

A bounce back from Swanson now would be nice.
I like Fluharty as a pen lefty.
It would be nice to see Hagen Danner up for a spell, but I don't know if he'll back this year.
T. J. Brock looked like a promising option but he got hurt and only threw 7 innings.

Kikuchi and Garcia are probably out of price now.
I don't know if I care to see Richards back or how much he would cost.

greenfrog - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 07:35 AM EDT (#449668) #
The Yankees offered Judge a 7/$213.5m extension and wouldn't move off of that. A year later, they had to pay him 9/$360m in a free agent bidding war. Which is still good value for a tremendously valuable player (207 wRC+ this year). But they probably could have saved themselves at least $100m by making a more generous extension offer a year before Judge hit free agency.
uglyone - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 08:30 AM EDT (#449669) #
The Bo situation seems much more analagous to the Stroman situation than the Donaldson situation.
99BlueJaysWay - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 10:34 AM EDT (#449671) #
You mean the opposite of Stroman. Stroman wanted to be here and was pissed when he was traded. Everyone has been commenting that Bo is checked out and wants to move on.
uglyone - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#449672) #
Both pushed out by management cheaping out.
scottt - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#449673) #
The Jays are over the luxury tax. They are not cheapening out.

Almost all players talk about wanting to stay but then demand more money than they would get on the open market. Like Chapman who ends up unsigned in February.

In the case of Stroman, the front office wanted someone younger to anchor the rotation and ended up with Berrios who is 3 years younger.

I must admit, I didn't enjoy the Stroman starts against the Jays this year where he gets the catcher to set outside and rely on the ump miscalling strikes.

Bo wanted nothing to do with arbitration and signed a 3 year deal but without any club options.
Many teams would have demanded an option in return for any guaranteed money.

greenfrog - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 11:03 AM EDT (#449674) #
Management gave a five-year extension to Grichuk, but chose not to give one to Stroman. Stroman was a valuable player in his four seasons after he left Toronto (2019-2023). Anthony Kay and SWR, not so much (Martin and SWR were later traded for Berrios, of course).

Gerry - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 11:28 AM EDT (#449675) #
Looks like Barger is back up to replace Bo.
uglyone - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#449676) #
Funny thing is Stroman has been better than Berrios since we added Berrios.

Since 2021:

* Stroman: 104gms, 5.4ip/gm, 85era-, 94fip-, 92xfip-, 9.4war, 2.9war/32gms
* Berrios: 116gms, 5.8ip/gm, 100era-, 100fip-, 97xfip-, 8.9war, 2.4war/32gms
Glevin - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 11:57 AM EDT (#449677) #
Stroman had 0.9 WAR total on his de after he was traded because he sat out the 2020 season. The Jays got two top-100 prospects or so for him so it was good deal. Comparing extending Grichuk to Stroman is just silly. Grichuk was 5 years $10M a year. Stroman is a different quality player and would rightly demand much more.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 12:33 PM EDT (#449679) #
The Blue Jays gave Grichuk 5/$52m. The Cubs gave Stroman 3/$71m. The two contracts are not all that far apart. But the larger point is the team’s judgement in selecting which players to extend and which ones not to extend.

Also, Martin was the main get in the Berrios trade. SWR was a secondary piece. So the Stroman trade didn’t play an especially important role in the acquisition of Berrios.

And Kay and SWR were barely top-100 prospects, if they were even that. At the time the Twins (another team that was interested in Stroman) were like, we could have offered more than SWR+Kay.
scottt - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 12:35 PM EDT (#449680) #
They didn't feel comfortable extending Stroman through the next competitive window.
Stroman opted out in 2020 then finished his contract in 21.
Then he signed a 2-year deal with the Cubs in which he only made 25 starts every year.
Now, he's signed for 2-year with the Yankees with a player option for 26.
Berrios has made 32 starts in 22 and 23 and some people are still upset that they pulled him after 3 innings in 23.
Stroman has not thrown a pitch in the postseason since the 2016 ALCS.
Stro is striking down fewer and walking more this year and allowing more HR.
His FIP is up to 5.11.
He's also thrown only 105 innings.

85bluejay - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#449681) #
Houston has erased a 10 game deficit in a month - Seattle needs bats like Vlad desperately.
scottt - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 12:55 PM EDT (#449682) #
Stroman opted out of the last year with the Cubs at 21M to sign for 2-year 37M with the Yankees.
Stroman has an option for 18M in 2026 but he can only trigger it if he throws 140 innings in 2025.

The Twins were not offering more for Stroman.
They were pushing for a deal centered on Jordan Balazovic (who is Canadian).
He threw 24 innings in the pen last year, ERA 4.44.
He has an ERA of 5.60 in AAA this year.
Someone on the Twins didn't think SWR was worth much but they ended up trading for him.

greenfrog - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#449683) #
Stroman may be mostly done at this point. But he did deliver a few good seasons after he left Toronto. He’s a career 24.1 WAR player, compared to Grichuk, who never exceeded 1.0 WAR per season after 2018.
Glevin - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 02:23 PM EDT (#449684) #
Greenfrog, absolutely none of what you are saying is true. 3/$71 is more than double 5/$52 per year how can you say that's not far apart? You can't compare these players at all. SWR was an important piece in getting Berrios for sure. And Kay and SWR were both good prospects at the time the Jays traded for them and no, nobody was offering more for him that the Jays turned down. Twins didn't want to trade their good prospects and they had prospects higher up the mlb prospect list that the Jays probably (rightly) didn't like as much. So maybe Twins thought Jordan Balazovic was better prospect but Jays didn't.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#449685) #
Glevin, the Stroman free agent contract was shorter than Grichuk’s. So Stroman got more AAV, whereas Grichuk got more term, bringing the overall value of the contracts closer. Again, the point is not to minutely dissect each contract, but to consider what Stroman might have agreed to in order to stay with the Blue Jays, versus what Grichuk agreed to in order to stay with the team. Even if it would have taken (say) 5/80 to keep Stroman versis Grichuk’s 5/52, the Stroman extension would have been a much savvier one.

As for the Stroman trade, you are incorrect (as is scottt). The Twins were reportedly taken by surprise when the trade was announced. They said they could have topped the Mets offer, but the Blue Jays never followed up on trade discussions with them. It’s unclear what prospects Toronto might have acquired had a Minnesota trade been consummated. Here an article on The Score that discusses what happened (and didn’t happen):

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/1805705


Nigel - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#449686) #
I really don’t understand what Turner is still doing on this roster. Time catches all and he’s toast. That’s been evident for a while. They should use the DH slot to rotate players through it and to let Horwitz play more 1B.
Glevin - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 03:33 PM EDT (#449687) #
"the Stroman free agent contract was shorter than Grichuk’s. So Stroman got more AAV, whereas Grichuk got more term, bringing the overall value of the contracts closer"

$10 a year for 5 years and $23M a year for 3 years are not contracts that are remotely similar or given to similar players. I never liked Grichuk (despite being so handsome) and never liked the extension but $10M a year is not a big deal. If Stroman got 3/$71, why do you think he'd take 5/$85? Especially because he was more valuable at the time. My guess would have been something like what Berrios signed.

Yes I know that article on the score and all it says is that someone thinks that the twins could have beaten the Mets offer. As I said, Twins might have overvalued what Jays thought of their prospects. Maybe they didn't like them. There is absolutely no way anyone not in Jays front. Office could possibly know There are just a lot of things this front office has done poorly, I hate this retroactive, they should have done this thing which actually worked out fine.
SK in NJ - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 03:40 PM EDT (#449688) #
Turner and Kiermaier still starting everyday when no team would take their contracts for free seems really pointless. Teams know what they are. Turner is a platoon bat off the bench at this point in his career, and Kiermaier is a 4th OF. No one is going to adjust that line of thinking if one or both of them have a good week. The Jays have shown a ridiculous amount of preferential treatment to veterans this season (more than previous years) so I would imagine this might be more of a "respect" thing than actually believing a team will give up a better return if a 40 year old DH with a -0.1 WAR goes 5 for his next 10.

At least that means only a week and a half more of John Schneider playing every vet on the team regardless of performance. I can't imagine August and September will be too much fun for him only having young players at his disposal.
Nigel - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 04:03 PM EDT (#449689) #
I agree that KK and Turner are similar in that they have no real trade value and playing time now isn’t going to solve that, However, I think their circumstances are a bit different. I wouldn’t just releasie KK. With his defense and base running there is at least the theoretical possibility that a contender might have a definable need and a roster spot for a 4th/5th OF for that skill set. Turner’s problem is that he can’t take the field and can’t hit RH’s. I don’t see a contender having a roster spot for Turner.
dalimon5 - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#449690) #
"Someone could blame the turf and figure that Bo is more likely to stay healthy playing at second base."

How much time does Bo Bichette spend in the outfield and foul territory? 5%? That's the only part of the ballpark that's turf. Unless you think he suffers from standing in the on deck circle...
dalimon5 - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#449691) #
I've tuned into the game and I see and hear now that the announcers are now functioning as ambassadors for the team, justifying why Yusei Kikuchi would be a good pick up who can help a contender in the playoffs.
Mike Green - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#449692) #
We've reached the point that a grand slam off a reliever is a ho-hum occurrence. 

Could somebody please explain to me the upside of batting Justin Turner cleanup against a right-handed starter at this point?  Is it really necessary to show respect for him to that extent?  Personally, I think that it shows a lack of respect for the game and Turner would know that.  He's hitting .212/.328/.308 so far this year against RHP with 13 GIDPs (before today) in 247 PAs.  He's 39 years old. 
SK in NJ - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#449693) #
Turner probably will find a job somewhere if he's released just by virtue of his reputation and the fact that he can still hit LHP, but there's literally no reason for him to be playing everyday right now. His value will not change from now until the deadline. If anything, playing him everyday rather than adjusting his playing time to be more of a platoon bat actually hurt his value.

This is just John Schneider continuing to show his affinity for veteran players even at the expense of the team's long-term future. Barger on the bench so that Turner can continue to flail away against RHP is indicative of what 2024 has been. They could have easily started Barger and Berroa today and nothing would have happened to Kiermaier or Turner's perceived value, but this is the way they have operated all season, and unfortunately that won't change until August 1.
scottt - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 05:28 PM EDT (#449694) #
Someone form the Twins said exactly that. Yes.
But that's because they saw SWR as a C prospect.
The name that was floating around was Balazovic.
He was in the Twins's top 10.
The fact that the Twins turned around and traded Berrios for SWR tells you that realized they were wrong.

They also had Brusdar Graterol that they traded to the Dodgers over the winter. He's never been more than a middle reliever.
The Twins didn't acquire a starter at the deadline that year.


Magpie - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#449695) #
Could somebody please explain to me the upside of batting Justin Turner cleanup against a right-handed starter at this point?

None whatsoever, obviously. But once you get past Springer-Horwitz-Guerrero it doesn't much matter. Everybody sucks, and every way you look at it, you lose. (Sounds like a song!)
Nigel - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#449696) #
To Magpie’s point, I don’t take offence at hitting Turner cleanup. But he should have been released a while ago. Give the ABs to anyone else so you can start figuring out who is or is not part of the future.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 05:48 PM EDT (#449697) #
“despite being so handsome”

Grichuk, Kiermaier…maybe handsome is the new market inefficiency the FO is chasing?
greenfrog - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 06:10 PM EDT (#449698) #
So, if the Blue Jays are going to be uncompetitive next year and are unlikely to re-sign Vladdy (say the team is offering $275m and he wants $400m), should they trade him for prospects at the deadline?
scottt - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 06:11 PM EDT (#449699) #
At this point, might as well hang on to Turner until they can trade him.
Boston could use him, for sure. Maybe another couple of teams.

There's also the possibility of packaging the rentals for trade.

Of course, they let Kikuchi out there too long and they pick Richards to come up and give up 6 runs--3 inherited retiring only 1 of 6 batters faced.

It's this fixation to follow Kikuchi with Richards and lefties that drives me nuts.
8 right bats and 1 switch hitter.

Glevin - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#449700) #
Run it back Ross! We all want to keep watching this team forever.


Turner shouldn't be in lineup versus righties. Nobody interested in him would be so as anything other than a VS lhp anyway.

scottt - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 06:27 PM EDT (#449701) #
They have to go for broke next year.
It's always time to sell after that.
They can sign free agents and trade them--lots of folks are hoping they do this now.
Look at Soto. He brought back Jhony Brito, Higashioka, Michael King, Drew Thorpe and Randy Vasquez.

Brito has a 4.35 ERA in 25 games in the pen.
King is a solid starter with a 3.41 ERA but he's a free agent after next year.
Thorpe has made 6 starts with a 3.58 ERA, looking like the biggest part.
Vasquez has made 13 starts with a 4.57 ERA.

It's nice but they need more players like Vladdy, not fewer.
Soto has been worth 5.3 WAR and is carrying the Yankees.


Mike Green - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 06:33 PM EDT (#449702) #
These things bug me.  Davis Schneider is hitting .235/.342/.457 for his major league career to date, and he's 25 years old. His platoon splits are typically modest.  You may believe that he won't keep it up, but surely there is an upside.  What happens if you show confidence in him and he surprises you by hitting at his career line to date?  Which incidentally is consistent with his triple A record in 2023 also.  Wouldn't it be a good thing for the ballclub? 

Daulton Varsho isn't doing great, but he's at .217/.295/.434 against RHPs for his career.  And he's 28 years old, a mainstay of the club and under contract through 26.  Wouldn't it be better to show confidence in him than to send out Turner for a fading hurrah?  It has been known to happen that a player takes a step forward at age 28, and if he did that, he would be an All-Star given his other skills.  Wouldn't that be a good thing for the ballclub?

When a Manager sends out Justin Turner in absolutely the worst position for him, he sends a message to the other players that he just doesn't have confidence in their ability to improve. To my mind, that matters. 
ISLAND BOY - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#449703) #
With all the negative right now, we shouldn't overlook the fact that Vlad looks like he's back. 3 for 4 today with the one out being a 109 mph lineout to first. Otherwise, it's a limp noodle lineup.

It's hard to believe the Jays went from such a fun team to watch just a few years ago to what we have today. Honestly it would be more interesting seeing a turnip rot in the sun than a lot of their games this year.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#449704) #
The management team just doesn’t seem very imaginative.
Ducey - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 08:26 PM EDT (#449705) #
The Jays now have a worse run differential and less runs scored than the A's.
John Northey - Saturday, July 20 2024 @ 11:07 PM EDT (#449706) #
Well, Turner isn't exactly stealing PA right now. Kiermaier is. Zero reason to play KK as more than a backup right now. Varsho should be in CF everyday now. Schneider everyday in LF, Horwitz everyday at either 2B or 1B, Barger everyday at 3B or RF. Until Bo is back (if he is back) Jimenez will be in the lineup everyday.

Note that none of those require Turner in or out of the lineup. As a DH he only might block Vlad and Springer from DHing now and then. Vlad at DH allows Horwitz to go to 1B, opening 2B for Schneider so you could put Berroa or Barger in LF or RF (if Springer DH's). Given Berroa seems to not be seen as a serious prospect (ala Lukes) I don't see much point. Now, once Votto is ready then you can dump Turner but again, how much does it change? Anyone who expects more from Votto than Turner is dreaming - we can have fun with the concept, but odds are it'll be a quiet goodbye to a guy who has had a great career being allowed to have a few PA for the team he grew up watching (ala Tulo with the Yankees).

As to Turner - in April & June he was great - 150's sOPS+ each month. In May & July he has sucked. 4 and -20 sOPS+. Anyone trading for him will be hoping he keeps alternating and has a strong August and October. I wouldn't be betting on it, but KC, Boston, Cleveland have all had horrid production (sub 0 fWAR) from their DH's. One of them might consider it, figuring things can't get much worse. Mix in the 'veteran leadership' and maybe KC would be interested (young team with little playoff experience I'm assuming). The best contribution he might give the Jays is another Canadian sorta (his kid was born here, but will have dual citizenship) ala Vlad.
bpoz - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 08:55 AM EDT (#449709) #
On paper the 2023 and 2024 are the same basically IMO. While painful the 2023 results were good. Seattle came so close but were the unlucky one. I expect the Jays and the close teams last year to take their turn at doing a Seattle. Actually Seattle could miss out of a playoff spot again this year which would be being competitive/good and unlucky again. This is because the AL Central teams improved a lot.





Mike Green - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 11:17 AM EDT (#449710) #
Turner cleaning up and playing first base against a RHP. There are so many ways a manager could avoid this, while still giving VGJ a well-deserved DH day. Barger or Berroa could play, and that would do it with Clement or Schneider playing 2B and Horwitz playing 1B.
scottt - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#449711) #
Defensively, they are still fun to watch. I watched the MLB top 100 for a bit and not even halfway through I had seen 8 Blue Jays plays.

Chuck - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 11:30 AM EDT (#449712) #
Turner cleaning up and playing first base against a RHP.

It would seem that Schneider is hell bent on not disrespecting his veterans. As such, that sense of duty should be removed and Turner should be sent packing at the deadline, even if the Jays have to eat most of the remaining salary. It wouldn't even matter if whoever assumes his playing time does not hit as well as he does. This is about giving MLB experience to young players when there are no stakes involved.

John Northey - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 11:31 AM EDT (#449713) #
I'm guessing other teams are wanting to see if Turner can play a half decent 1B (many pro scouts in the building) thus why he is there. Cleanup because why not I guess. Maximize PA without going full spring training. More interesting to me is Kiermaier sitting.
pooks137 - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 12:08 PM EDT (#449714) #
As to Turner - in April & June he was great - 150's sOPS+ each month. In May & July he has sucked. 4 and -20 sOPS+.

I suppose I haven't been paying attention lately but it seems incredulous that July Turner is somehow worse than May Turner.

May - 81 PAs - 111/210/139 - 8H, 3R, 2 2B, 0 HR, 5 RBIs, 9 BB, 11K, 4 GIDP

July - 42PAs - 087/161/087 - 3H, 2R, 0 2B, 0 HR, 3 RBIs, 2 BB, 12K, 2 GIDP

So it is true that July Turner has been substantially worse. May Turner at least had very good plate discipline with 9/11 BB/K ratio which has evaporated to 2/12 in July.

May Turner also had a smidge of power.

The Jays are so snakebitten that every single one of their trade deadline assets minus Vlad have turned simultaneously into pumpkins.

John Northey - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 12:50 PM EDT (#449715) #
One wonders with all the stuff going on why there are so many underachieving players on this team. Hitters first minimum 100 PA...
  • Sub 0 fWAR: Turner
  • Sub 0.5 fWAR: Kiermaier, Bo, Biggio
  • 0.5 to 0.9 fWAR: Clement, Jansen
  • ----divider between average and sub average ML'er-----
  • 1.0 to 1.9 fWAR: Schneider, Kirk, Springer, Horwitz, Vlad
  • 2.0+ fWAR: IKF, Varsho
Turner is a disaster, we can just hope someone loves his 'veteran presence'. Kiermaier has become a defensive backup only. Bo & Biggio...sigh. Clement is who he is (a backup), Jansen when healthy is good but isn't that often enough. Kind of surprised how many average or better players we have though with 7 qualifying that way. I'm a bit generous saying 1 fWAR at this point is average, but it is in eyeshot with Schneider & Kirk the only ones right on the line (both not playing everyday). Surprised to see Kirk has fewer PA than Jansen though given the health of both.

Now pitchers 20+ IP
  • Sub 0: Pop, Green, Cabrera, Francis, Mayza
  • 0-0.49: Pearson, Little, Manoah, Richards, Berrios
  • 0.5-0.9: Rodriguez, Garcia
  • 1.0-1.9: Gausman, Bassitt
  • 2.0+: Kikuchi
So 3 starters are ML average or better, with Rodriguez right there (fewer starts) and Garcia a solid reliever. Pearson, Little, Richards all solid relievers. Everyone else is sub par.

So what comes next? Hopefully other teams think of Kikuchi like fWAR does - as a high end starter and not the frustrating solid/great for 5 innings then you take your chances guy I see. Richards seems determined to kill his value (3 straight fastballs with the bases loaded - what were he & Jansen thinking?). Turner and Kiermaier are basically 'lets clear roster slots' at this point. I don't see how the Jays can get under the luxury tax as both of those guys will need their salaries mostly eaten by the Jays (had hope for Turner but then July came and he forgot how to hit). Well, unless they trade guys whose contract expire post 2025 of course (Bassitt mostly). Saw online rumors about the Dodgers jumped today as they demoted a pitcher but didn't say he was going to AAA - if they do then he'd replace James Paxton most likely (4.38 ERA 5.36 xFIP). The Dodgers have 2 rookies in the rotation right now in Justin Wrobleski & Landon Knack but Glasnow & Kershaw are back this week. Gavin Stone is the other member of the rotation right now for them and he is solid. Yoshinobu Yamamoto has a strained rotator cuff (yikes!) and is out until at least August 16th (on 60 day IL) and probably longer. Heck, looking at their injury woes they might want both Kikuchi and Bassitt.
John Northey - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 01:08 PM EDT (#449716) #
Ah here is the tweet I saw that got me thinking hmm.... let's hope the Dodgers are desperate and determined. With Yamamoto out for the year most likely they'll need another decent starter for the playoffs.
Nigel - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 01:24 PM EDT (#449717) #
The Turner thing could be about deference to veteraness and, if so, it’s up to Atkins to release Turner. However, just as possible is that this is about Schneider being in the Dead Man Walking phase of his tenure. Quite a few coaches/managers who know that they are going to be fired start to stubbornly refuse to make changes that are obvious but that fans are calling for. If you crank “I Did it My Way” to 11 it will make more sense.
pooks137 - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#449718) #
Bo & Biggio...sigh

Cavan is "slashing" 175/298/250 with the Dodgers btw with 1 HR and 5 BBs in 49 PAs.

I like most have a soft spot for Biggio. But it does seem Atkins was right to cut him when he did, particularly since it gave us everyday Spencer Horwitz.

92-93 - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#449719) #
Springer has a higher OPS than Jansen, Varsho, and Schneider. Incredible.
greenfrog - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 02:27 PM EDT (#449720) #
There is still a small window of time to turn this thing around in 2024.

The US presidential campaign, that is. Biden is stepping aside.
greenfrog - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 02:30 PM EDT (#449721) #
I’ve said this before, but if I were a contender in need of a right fielder, I would consider trading for Springer. He’s been terrific for more than a month now.
Magpie - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 02:31 PM EDT (#449722) #
Springer has a higher OPS than Jansen, Varsho, and Schneider. Incredible.

What's most incredible (he's obviously a much better hitter than those guys) is that it only took him three weeks to reassert that, despite how bad he'd been.
Nigel - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 02:32 PM EDT (#449723) #
That is quite the positive turn around for Springer but, unfortunately, reflective of prolonged terrible stretches for the other three.
Glevin - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#449724) #
This is just such an unpleasant season. Everything going wrong. The thought of trying to win with this team and a new piece or two again next year is utterly offensive.
Mike Green - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 02:57 PM EDT (#449725) #
Nonetheless, Davis Schneider arrived in the major leagues on August 4, 2023.  He's done very well since then with a wRC+ of 127.  Even with today's 2 homer game, Springer is considerably behind him over that period and is indeed behind him over this year.  It's nice that his wRC+ is back over 110 for the last year, and concerns that he's totally fallen off the cliff at age 34 have abated.  

Taking the longer view with 1 year and 3 year performance, the Blue Jay position players are nowhere near the concern that the pitching staff is. 
Mike Green - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 03:07 PM EDT (#449726) #
Not pinch-running for Turner in a tie game in the sixth inning?  Hmm.
Magpie - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 03:12 PM EDT (#449727) #
I wouldn't.
Magpie - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#449728) #
Gosh. When was the last time this team scored a run without the involvement of Springer-Horwitz-Guerrero?
pooks137 - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#449729) #
Last inning.

Turner single.
Varsho Walk.
Clement RBI single.
Magpie - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#449730) #
Precisely. First time since Kiermaier's grand slam.
Mike Green - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#449731) #
I am glad it worked (not pinch-running for Turner); I guess the justification for not doing so is that you figure 1 run isn't going to be near enough because the bullpen is so lousy.


Magpie - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 03:34 PM EDT (#449732) #
Mostly, it was too early for me (and I wait until he gets to second base first anyway.) That spot is coming around again, which means Barger or Kiermaier, and their best reliever is LH.
Magpie - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#449733) #
Didn't expect it to come around that quick!
Mike Green - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 03:36 PM EDT (#449734) #
However, at this point Turner can't hit a good RH pitcher for beans either. 
Mike Green - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#449735) #
And then Schneider subs in defensively for him.  Weird.  It worked out OK, but this was not a winning percentage combination.  Much better to have pinch-run with Kiermaier if you would sub in defensively for Turner an inning later. 
Magpie - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 03:40 PM EDT (#449736) #
Yeah, but Holton was the pitcher I was thinking about.
pooks137 - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#449737) #
Someone pointed out in the Reddit gamethread that Genesis Cabrera has an ERA of 2.43 since April 12th over 33 innings.

Though it does come with 6.3 K/9, 6 unearned runs and a FIP of 4.96.

I would've never guessed that Cabrera has essentially been the Jays' best reliever this year simply through attrition.
mathesond - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#449738) #
Hot damn Varsho, that was nice!
Magpie - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#449739) #
Very impressive vertical leap there!
Magpie - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#449740) #
Cabrera has essentially been the Jays' best reliever this year simply through attrition.

Obviously, Chad Green would like a word. But otherwise... yeah. And yikes. But Richards has been ground into dust by overwork, and everyone else was either terrible or got hurt.
Mike Green - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#449741) #
It reads 5-4 on the scoreboard, but this was a game for the position players both with the bats and with the gloves.  They had 11 hits,but it easily could have been more and 6 or 7 runs.
pooks137 - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#449742) #

Green does have better numbers when I look them up.

I think I disregarded Green because he was hurt earlier in the spring. And I still haven't forgiven him for that first-pitch walkoff HR in Oakland.

But only 5 runs, none unearned over 27 innings is quite impressive.

It's interesting Green isn't receiving more trade buzz even if he has another year at 1/10.5.

A reliever like Green can easily be replaced in the offseason with money alone compared to other assets.

Glevin - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#449744) #
"It's interesting Green isn't receiving more trade buzz even if he has another year at 1/10.5."

We need him for our run at 78 wins next year.
John Northey - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#449746) #
Green has a 1.88 ERA, but 4.60 xFIP which is not good. Sub a K per inning. These are things other teams pay attention to nowadays. However, he is established and known so I could see someone trading for him if the price is right. Green, Bassitt are the 2 who are under contract for 2025 who I see as likely to be traded. Both hold value in the market in high demand positions. Neither has a massive contract that would scare away many teams (well, Tampa, but they are petrified of ever paying anyone).

I'm expecting to see Kikuchi traded soon. Jansen too. But the rest? Depends on what other teams offer. Given how Richards is up and down I doubt he goes anywhere except as part of a package deal. Same for Kiermaier (Jays would need to eat a lot of his pay). Turner? I expect him to be on waivers soon as I don't see anyone offering anything for him at this stage. Swanson might be interesting soon (only under team control for 2024/25) if he can show much over the next week. Garcia same thing. I could see an aggressive team going for a bullpen refresh in Garcia/Swanson/Green - a solid affordable trio - the Royals pen has had a lot of issues this year so maybe they'd be interested. 1B/DH has been a big issue in KC too, as has their OF. Can't imagine KK would help it much given it is their offense that is dead there, but Turner could help at 1B/DH there. So potential there. The Cubs are horrid at catcher but in eyeshot of the playoffs. Dodgers have massive injuries in their rotation, like nuts level of injuries.
scottt - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 06:47 PM EDT (#449749) #
One wonders with all the stuff going on why there are so many underachieving players on this team. Hitters first minimum 100 PA...
  • Sub 0 fWAR: Turner
  • Sub 0.5 fWAR: Kiermaier, Bo, Biggio
  • 0.5 to 0.9 fWAR: Clement, Jansen
  • ----divider between average and sub average ML'er-----
  • 1.0 to 1.9 fWAR: Schneider, Kirk, Springer, Horwitz, Vlad
  • 2.0+ fWAR: IKF, Varsho

Bo is the definition of underachieving. Biggio never figured out that he needed to protect with 2 strikes. Jansen is hitting like a catcher. Kirk is not even doing that but he plays great defense. Clement is doing alright, better than average on both offense and defense while subbing off the bench. Vlad has an OPS of .834. Nothing wrong with that.

If you follow baseball, you will see that there a tons of underachieving players on every team.

Take the Yankees for example:

OPS+ Judge 206, Soto 180, Stanton (still on the IL) 119.

Wells 93, Volpe 89, Verdugo 84, Torres 84, Rizzo (on the 60IL) 77, Cabrera 76.

scottt - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#449751) #
Bichette has a "moderate" calf strain that will sideline him for multiple weeks.

Bob Nightengal reports that Guerrero wants to stay in Toronto but Bichette has told friends that he would welcome a trade. Intrigue for the winter.

greenfrog - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#449752) #
Guessing that Bichette is/was:

-Unimpressed by Montoyo and Schneider

-Unimpressed by Atkins/Shapiro (some questionable moves and meddling in on-field management—see Berrios pull and subsequent failure to take responsibility for that)

-Unhappy about his dad being barred from access to the team
92-93 - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#449753) #
I suggest that the people pining for the Jays to sell everything read Magpie's original post on this thread.
Glevin - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#449754) #
Can't see Jays trading Bichette this offseason unless he comes back and goes on fire. His season was so bad. Hopefully, that's what happens. Wanting to stay in Toronto is nice but doesn't mean anything to me because it could mean I want to stay here and have a 15 year /$30M a year" or something crazy. I have very little faith in management right now though. I think they've gotten a ton of unfair criticsm but the single worst thing a maangement team can do is to not understand where the team is at and act like it. Pretending this is a team that is close to winning or needs a tweak here or there was fine going into the season. Now, it's criminal.
greenfrog - Sunday, July 21 2024 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#449755) #
Bichette is kind of annoying sometimes. In the off-season he wanted the Blue Jays to sign another bat or two, and he specifically named Turner as someone he wanted them to acquire. The team went out and got Turner. Turner turned out to be past his prime, and Bichette was horrible—as in basically zero WAR horrible. Then Bichette tells a SF journalist that he would like to play for a team like the Giants, because they know how to attract the right kind of player. Now he says he wants to be traded.

Sheesh. If you don’t want to be in Toronto, at least play your way off the team so they can trade you for a reasonable return.
jerjapan - Monday, July 22 2024 @ 07:52 AM EDT (#449760) #
Greenfrog man, I dunno ... your stance feels a tad archaic to me.
In terms of labour principles, the draft, 'team control' - these things are offensive to me on principle.  
So what if Bo expressed out loud what the entire team wanted - more bats?  So what if the most frustrating FO in pro sports leaves the guy wanting more?
I have worked in toxic environments, with toxic people, and in just mediocre environments, with mediocre people.  Find the right group though, and everything clicks.  Your entire life benefits. 

BTW, Bo has not asked for a trade.  He 'told friends' he would 'welcome' one.  I don't doubt the veracity - just the integrity of the journalists and their sources. 

Bo seems like a good guy, and has brought me and the rest of us joy.  I give him the benefit of the doubt, and since none of us can actually know what he thinks, who cares about this sort of post?   Sheesh. 

Players are human beings too.  Not their fault global income inequality is insane.  But would you muster those same arguments if Bo were just a working stiff like the rest of us? 

Would you, too, not 'welcome' a trade from this sad-sack franchise?  
Petey Baseball - Monday, July 22 2024 @ 10:03 AM EDT (#449769) #
In Detroit this June, I was shocked to see firsthand Bo's effort, intensity and drive is not what it was a few years ago. He's been a good player and very fun to watch when he's healthy and producing, but it's clear he does not want to be in Toronto. It is incumbent on this front office to move on this, regardless of "trade value". Like Marcus Stroman and others before him, he's not so valuable that you compromise the negative effect this situation could have on young players. If the situation cannot be rectified (and it doesn't look at all like it can) I really don't see any downside to moving a disgruntled player at this point, when you have the rest of this season and the off-season to try to find a replacement.

greenfrog - Monday, July 22 2024 @ 11:02 AM EDT (#449776) #
Wouldn’t Leo Jimenez be Bo’s replacement?
scottt - Monday, July 22 2024 @ 11:22 AM EDT (#449778) #
Toronto strikes me as the opposite of toxic environment. They worked on raising wages for minor leaguers. They spent on improving the facilities both in Spring training and in Toronto. Bo is treated as a star. He should probably have been moved out of shortstop but they don't even talk about it. They don't move him down the lineup when he struggles as they should.

It's not the front office who is playing poorly. It's the players on the field.
The front office failure here is relying on Bo, not the other way around.
Biggio was booed in his first game for the Dodgers and Bo might find out that the fans aren't so patient elsewhere.

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