Mlbtraderumors has their updated top 10 MLB free agents this coming off season and Kikuchi is not on the list.

Sounds like the James Click rumours are heating up. if he isn't going to move to canada, then that's a pass for me. i'm not at all convinced that would be a good hire for GM. Crane's team went from a joke to 2 titles and constant contention in about a decade...around the amount of time Shapiro has helmed the Jays with much weaker results. Crane canned Click. This is a guy that wanted to hire Friedman in 2011, who gave Luhnow carte blanche, but had friction with Click for whatever reasons.

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind firing Atkins who, last I checked, is merely a consensus communicator of an entire team which includes Click. So you fire Atkins to bring in a guy that advised and agreed with every move that you're firing him for? I don't understand that logic at all.

We have no idea what happens behind the scenes.

Click could have different views of what should be happening, but Atkins doesnt implement them.

I would say that Click winning a world series 2 years after he became GM likely means he benefited from the work of his predecessor. I dont know. He has a good reputation, I believe, and seems to have butted heads with the Astros interventionist owner.

The Jays need to find someone who excels in player evaluation.

Asked what will factor into the decision to buy at deadline?

“we've put ourselves into a tough spot, we really need to add a day at a time and one pitch at a time, get things turned around to be in a position to buy.”

- Ross Atkins

— Hazel Mae (@thehazelmae) June 27, 2024

I know there are still 83 games left in the season but there are only 30'ish before the trade deadline. I also know every game counts the same in the standings but I do think this is a huge series for the Jays. If they lose this series I don't see a way back. If they win there is hope. 2-2 is I don't know but they need to start getting back to .500 and time is running out.

Basically any interview with a GM should be boring with minimal information. Their job is to get the best result long term for the team, and sometimes to focus on a single season over all else. AA had that twice (2013 and 2015), one worked, one didn't. Atkins has been in 'win now' mode for 4 years straight - '21-'24, plus in '16-'18 although 17/18 were really not much chance, no GM could've saved those teams imo, it was sell time but I suspect the team was told to keep trying anyways. Right now looks to be the same as 17/18 - a team that is not a contender but isn't allowed to dump as 2025 season ticket sales are being pushed at the moment, and TV ratings need to stay high for Rogers bottom line.

So realistically what do I expect - a team that tries to stay in eyeshot of contending for a playoff slot. I could see minor trades for relief help, but that's about it. Most likely waiver wire attempts to improve. Come late July the team might give permission to dump a few salaries to get under the luxury tax, thus saving the club a few million in 2024 and 2025 and 2026 (once reset it'll take time to get to max tax).

Worst case? Jays suck for the next month really bad - get 15+ out of the race, thus only fools would believe in them. Then the Dodgers make a killer offer for Bo that the Jays just can't refuse and boom, there goes the biggest piece possible.

"We have not received many or a significant number of calls asking for our players that are on short contracts." - Atkins

"I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind firing Atkins who, last I checked, is merely a consensus communicator of an entire team which includes Click. So you fire Atkins to bring in a guy that advised and agreed with every move that you're firing him for? I don't understand that logic at all."

The idea for me at least is that by changing the GM to someone with some spine, Shapiro will get a do-over. Instead of running the day to day (which I believe he does), he will have an actual GM pulling the strings beneath him and challenging him. That's the hope for me. I want a GM who can make a trade and only needs Shapiro to sign off for budget reasons. That's how AA and Beeston operated. With Shapiro he has admitted to being involved in all decisions with a "collective" of people. Sounds like he's sitting in a board room with 12 of his miniatures considering different ideas that fit into his structure and philosophy.

"Would you be surprised if you were traded before the trade deadline?"

Bo Bichette: "No. Not at all."

You don't normally hire guys from the outside with no knowledge of the organization.
Shapiro was an exception. He hired Atkins because he already knew him.
On the manager side, AA hired Farrell and it was a huge disaster.
It was such a disaster that he re-hired Gibbons, the only guy he knew.
Atkins hired Montoyo but it seemed to be just so that Schneider could get some experience.

For a GM, you want someone who has demonstrated he can do the job.
You also want somebody who knows the org from the top unless you expect him to either make no changes (like AA in Atlanta) or do a fire sale like in Baltimore. 

Shapiro has the reputation of a top baseball exec.
Cherington came to work for him before taking over the Pirates.

The structure and philosophy is based on player development and sustainability.
I don't blame the front office for players taking step backs.
There has been no crazy back loaded contracts.
There has been a massive number of free agent signings compare to the previous administrations.
They've hit more than they've missed.

I don't agree that you can say any front office member would produce the same results as the GM.

Yes they operate as a group. But usually there is not 100% agreement within a group and the GM has the final say. In business I have disagreed with my bosses decision but once the decision is made you have to fall into line. I have also seen people saying they agree just to suck up when they in reality they don't agree. I have also seen a majority say lets do X but the boss is convinced of his ability and say thanks for that but we are doing Y.

You cannot assume James Click or anyone would do the same as Atkins. If you were in the decision making meetings and saw that he was 100% aligned with the GM then fine, but we don't know.

How many times have we seen a bench coach or hitting coach get the job when the manager was fired and put out different lineups and/or get different results?

Prime aged star players running for the exits.

So fun being a jays fan.

I don't trust Shapiro to hire any GM that's functionally any different than Atkins.

That's a shocking quote from Bichette. He couldn't be bothered to give the standard athlete non-answer?

What is up in that clubhouse that the team's two young stars are out there talking trade openly with the media?

AA worked under Ricciardi and those two were polar opposites. I'd prefer going outside the org for the next hire, but it's not a lock that if they hired someone internally that they'd be the same as Atkins. It really depends on how much power the GM really has. I don't think Shapiro just approves things and works on renovation projects. He likely has at least some hand in baseball decisions. It's just a matter of how much and to what degree.

There's not enough of a sample with James Click to really get a sense of the type of GM he'd be. He inherited a team that was already good.

"So fun being a jays fan."

What's stopping you from switching allegiances? Why not throw your support behind an organization that does the things you approve of?

"Prime aged star players running for the exits."

Welcome to professional sports. Last I checked a lot of players, even those with QO's, want to go to free agency.

Its been pretty clear for a while that Vlad and Bo were going to market in 2025. All that has changed is that instead of holding onto them and going for it in 2024 and 2025 it now makes sense to look at moving them starting now.

Anyway in Bo's case he is a "Prime aged, former star player, who better pull his head out his ass soon or he wont be of any use to anyone".

"What's stopping you from switching allegiances? Why not throw your support behind an organization that does the things you approve of?"

It's our team. Not Shapiro's. Shapiro is a mercenary available to the highest bidder. Not us.

Clement clearly did not learn his lesson the last time. You hit you get benched. Its not that complicated Ernie:)

Haven't had many innings like that this year. Very enjoyable especially against the Yankees.

The longer I watch baseball the more I come to the decidedly not novel concept that the three run homer is really the cadillac ride to success. More than anything it is what has been missing from this lineup.

Well, that's definitely the most fun first inning we've had this year!

and again!

here comes george.

I deserve some credit here after finally dropping Springer in fantasy earlier this week.

much appreciated, 92-93!

If George can do that 10 more times, the apology tour will begin.

Took a look at the rolling xwoba for a few Jays. As of yesterday, over their last 100 pa:

Springer - .340
Turner - .373
Kirk - .343
Schneider - .309
Jansen - .248 (and on a steady downward decline since his start)
Bichette - .354
Vlad - .401
Varsho - .202
IKF - .268
Clement - .297

From my perspective, this demonstrates two things:
-People have been focusing their negative attention at the wrong folks
-There was evidence that George’s production had improved and there was optimism for better production , as Schneider (and possibly Atkins as well?) indicated a few days ago, again to much criticism

SUMMER OF GEORGE!

Varsho has gone into the tank pretty badly and is about to slip below the Mendoza line but 100 PAs is still a pretty small sample size.

Very good night for the Blue Jays. Wish I could say the same for POTUS in the presidential debate.

The Jays were fun and easy to watch, the debate was ugly.

Quite nice to see Springer finally starting to hit like he used to. Now, can he keep it up? Odds are against it but lets hope. It is fun to have hope. Sports gives us that. Politics gives us sadness on both sides of the border right now.

What would/should Atkins be looking for if he trades Bo? An every day player with power and a good, young pitcher who can step into the rotation this year or 2025? I haven't seen this discussed much except that the off season might be a better time to do it rather than the trade deadline.

I dont think the Jays can look at trading Bo until he has a super hot month or two to show that the first half of this season was an aberration. Average SS with at OPS+ 77, which is all he has been thru the first 1/2 of the season, aint worth much. At least that is what Atkins will hear from rival GM's on the phone.

Other teams will look at him as historically good but maybe not someone who will figure it out this year - which is what they would want going into the playoffs.

Given there are only 30 days or so until the trade deadline, it wouldn't be then.

My fear is that Atkins will just keep him until his contract expires and then let him walk with just a QO comp pick in the 4th round.

That would be a mistake in the same way that Democrats didnt want to worry that Biden's age would be a concern.

I've been discussing this at least on 5 or 6 game threads. The highest they will receive (even if he catches fire) is the equivalent of what the Rays received for 1 full year of Glasnow + extension. That's a high OPS OF with some pop and a good young starting pitcher. That's the hope. Two top 100 prospects.

Since there is likely no trade and sign scenario, it is more likely you get one of those types of prospects only + a top 5 organizational prospect (top 200 prospect for 2nd player).

Dodgers just make so much sense if they're trading Bo. They have a big need and tons of pieces. Something like Vargas and Sheehan might make sense but not sure if values are there.

Wow. Isn't that what being a fan is about? It's certainly not blindly supporting a front office that has been good with pitching and NOTHING else. A front office that has sacrificed power in an effort to cut down on an already low K %? Thinking of ways your team can be better? NOT just jumping allegiances every time another org does things the way you think they should be? Personally I think the ridiculous emperor has no clothes attitude illustrated by fans and people in the FO has gotten this team where they are. Maybe if Shapiro had hired an experience GM instead of a initiate we wouldn't be looking at this time with elite talent and unprecedented spending so poorly!

Anyone else notice what looked like IKF on 2nd base relaying location to Springer right before HR #2? I mean, one player to another, that's within "the rules", as I understand it..

Glevin - I agree, if a Bo trade does happen the Dodgers are by far the best option. I like Dalton Rushing (C/1B, #49 overall) with the risk of Jansen leaving. He is 22, in AA hitting 261/376/473 - best OPS on the team for guys with 100+ AB's (one guy with 110 PA has a higher one) so odds are it isn't a ballpark illusion. Mix him with a lower prospect (ideally a pitcher) and we should have something worth considering. But any Bo trade will look bad for certain, so it wouldn't happen until late July.

I don't see AA as a polar opposite of Ricciardi.
They both tried to compete on a budget.
It's not AA who acquired Bautista and Encarnation.
Riccardi had Travis Snider, Vernon Wells and Alex Rios with OPS+ under 100 in his last year.
Gibbons wasn't smart enough to platoon Adam Lind and that didn't change under AA.
Riccardi's teams didn't have the money to field a complete rotation behind Halladay.
Brian Tallet, Scott Richmond and Brett Cecil?
A few years later, AA had Happ (before he figured he could throw more fastballs), Josh Johnson and Todd Redmond, except Halladay was gone and Dickey was nowhere near as good.

Each GM had their shot...

• Gillick had it most of the time, but couldn't get free agents to come until the 1991/92 offseason.
• Ash had cash but wasted it early on, took a big shot a few times between 97 (Clemens, trading 6 prospects for 3 ML'ers) and 2000 (included the nightmare Michael Young for Esteban Loiza deal), but it all maxed out at 88 wins in '98 after they dumped vets at the deadline.
• JPR slashed and burned early on, then got the cash in 2005/06 offseason (signed BJ Ryan, AJ Burnett, then traded for Overbay and Glaus), signed Frank Thomas the next offseason, traded for Scutaro, Rolan (for Glaus), etc. but it never worked out as they never won even 88 games.
• AA like JPR was in slash and burn early on, then in 2012 traded for JA Happ midseason, and was handed cash in 2012/13 offseason when he did the big trades, getting a batch from Florida ( Emilio Bonifácio, John Buck, Mark Buehrle, Josh Johnson, José Reyes) and the Mets deal (Noah Syndergaard+ for RA Dickey+), did other stuff (signed Martin to a record deal, dealt for Donaldson for example) until mid-2015 when he went nuts Tulowitzki, Price, Mark Lowe, Ben Revere for 12 players, mostly prospects plus Reyes) and got the only division title since 1993.
• Atkins inherited a playoff team, made it back but then it fell apart due to age and injuries. Rebuilt fast for playoffs in 20/22/23 and now needs a faster rebuild.

Now, it is possible this team can keep up the momentum and make the playoffs with the weak AL this year - 5.8% odds right now of making the playoffs, so a touch better than 1 in 20. Still hope - in 2021 Atlanta was at 15% at this point and won it all (1.1% shot at the title) - better odds, but not that much better.

Team Win% In Last year as GM:

* Pat .478
* Ash .494
* JP .463
* AA .574
* Now .463


one of these is not like the other

https://t.co/HhQRDoQ8N1. Sources say Jays never came close to deals for Vlad or Bo in past extension talks (does that affect their buy/sell call?). Plus many more trade notes on teams on bubble (Cubs, Tigers, etc.)

— Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) June 28, 2024

Interesting article.

Says no chance Bo resigns, with Vlad just slightly better chance. Bassett of interest, along with the pending FA's.

Pirates also willing to deal pitching prospects for MLB bats.

"one of these is not like the other"

Yes, the guy who was fired at the same time as his superior and had his superior's authorization to do as he pleased on his way out.

Ricciardi was criminally underrated. Better than Atkins, worse than AA.

AA was mediocre before his last year. If you consider he clearly had budget limits then he goes from mediocre to good. If he was never fired/told he was getting replaced would he have gone all in like he did?

Ummm, how was JPR any better than any other Jays GM? He won the fewest as a peak in a season (87 win peak reached once, the only year the Jays didn't finish 3rd or lower in the division by coming in 2nd). His drafts were infamous for being pathetic - Aaron Hill easily his best pick (24.4 WAR), others with 5+ (Shaun Marcum*, Ryan Roberts, Adam Lind*, Casey Janssen, Ricky Romero, Brett Cecil, Yan Gomes*, Jake Marisnick*, Aaron Loup) - huh more than I thought: 1 20+, 4 in the 10's, another 5 in the 5+ range. AA had 5 10+ (Marcus Stroman [20+], Noah Syndergaard, Kevin Pillar, Joe Musgrove, Anthony DeSclafani), 9 who were 5-9.9 (Aaron Sanchez, Sam Dyson, Jon Berti, Daniel Norris, Kendall Graveman, Danny Jansen, Matthew Boyd, Jordan Romano, Lane Thomas). Both sucked compared to Ash (1997 alone had 1 30 and 2 more 20's in Orlando Hudson, Vernon Wells, and Michael Young, with Casey Blake in the 20s from the year before plus, of course, Roy Halladay). Atkins? 10+ just 1 (Bo), 5-9.9 just 2 (Biggio, Alek Manoah - I suspect Schneider will get there by next season with Horwitz not far behind) with more to come of course (the past 3 drafts have no one reaching yet but that'll change soon).

So basically in drafting Ash wins by a landslide (his first rounders were fantastic and includes a HOF'er), AA did solidly (he got extra picks by any means he could, very smart), Atkins doing OK but very early to say for sure (Bo could be a 20-30 guy in the end, others who knows?), JPR was better than I thought but not as good as he should've been with many picks in the 10-15 range. Gillick was infamous for sucking on the draft outside of surprising long shots (Stieb was an OF picked in the 5th round for example, while he took many tools guys in round 1 leaving behind Dwight Gooden, Roger Clemens, and many other HOF'ers or near HOF'ers - his best 1st rounders were his last 3 full years 91-93 - Green, Stewart, Carpenter I bet run by the same guys who ran it under Ash - how the heck did Ash blow that much talent in the farm plus a ton in the majors? Sad just remembering it).

JPR basically was Atkins at best with a smaller budget and even worse PR skills. Ran into him on an elevator once and he pretended to be on the phone to avoid talking with people (it was full of Jays fans going to expensive seating areas, I was there via friends, I was close enough to see the phone wasn't actually on).

Look at the Jays right now competitively vs New York and Baltimore. Now imagine if they had the budget of 100 million instead of 250 million. That's what Ricciardi was working with. The Yankees and Red Sox were signing the best free agents it seemed year after year. Mike Mussina and Manny Ramirez would sign with those teams and the Jays had to scramble to try to entice the Gil Meche's and Lyle Overbay's of the world.

You can't just go by wins without factoring in the competition. Shapiro and Atkins caught the Red Sox, Yankees and Orioles during a downswing for most of their tenure so far.

I'm not particularly interested in historical evaluations of GM performance but I will say that it is odd that these conversations swirl without any recognition of team payroll. Nothing in baseball correlates to winning even remotely as closely as payroll. There are exceptions of course (see Tampa). It's pretty difficult to compare GMs as a consequence. Its clear that AA had a mediocre to poor record over his tenure until his final season but he also operated with the following team payroll rankings in MLB (2009 - 16th; 2010 - 22nd; 2011 - 24th; 2012 - 23rd; 2013 - 10th; 2014 10th and 2015 10th). Payroll resources have been upped in recent year relative to that (significantly in the past 2 years). And Shapiro should get some credit for getting an increased payroll from Rogers. That was a big accomplishment.

"AA poor aside from one year"

AA Team Win% Ranks: #5, #7*, #13, #14, #14, #20, #22

Atkins Win% Ranks: #7, #9, #9, #11, #19, #21, #23 #26

Kiermaier has good career numbers vs. Stroman (.297/.901 with 2HR in 37AB) and still can't crack the lineup tonight while Barger plays LF. He is not long for this team.

I'd probably have just rested Turner.

My goodness August, we all know AA vs Atkins, John and I were comparing Ricciardi and Atkins.

WE do have opening day payroll info for JPR and AA's time as Jays GM, as well as for Atkins. Opening day being most informative as that is what hope they had going into each season. Rank vs the other 30 ML teams. Via Cot's Contracts

• JPR: 2002-2009: 11, 23, 22, 25, 16, 16, 10, 16
• AA: 2010-2015: 20, 22, 21, 8, 9, 10
• Atkins: 2016-2024: 13, 11, 8, 21, 20, 13, 11, 7, 6
• Ash we only have 2000/01: 21, 10
• Gillick we know had the top payroll in MLB for 1992/1993.

So all had shots with a top 10 payroll, AA and Atkins made the playoffs with it, as did Gillick. JPR & Ash couldn't get to 89 wins (minimum for any Jays team making the playoffs).

Before anyone screams it - yes, from the mid 90's to 2013 the Yankees were #1 in MLB for payroll. Far beyond anyone else, first to $100 mil, first to $200 mil, the lowest they have been is 6th in 2018 when the Jays were in full hangover mode post 15/16, otherwise 4th is the lowest the Yankees have been in years (just once #1 in payroll post 2013, 2020). The Red Sox were top 5 during JPR and AA's time, dropping below the top 6 in 2021, bottoming out at #12 in 2023/24. During that time the Rays (2009-now) have been consistent contenders with 2010 being the peak (#22 in payroll) - they were #10 overall for payroll last in 2000 (when they came in dead last in the East, 1 up on the last place AL team). The O's? last top 10 was 2017, 4th in 2000 was their last time in the top 5, normally in the Jays range every year (20's or 10's) but 26th or lower from 2019 to now.

The Yankees & Red Sox were formable in JPR and AA's time but the Jays weren't in the Rays territory for payroll and never hit the depths the O's reached (consistent last place team) despite similar payrolls. Using payroll as an excuse for JPR & AA is not a good thing to use. JPR promised the Jays he could contend on a shoestring like the A's were doing back in 2000 but failed.

Wow, Springer is going great since I gave up 100% on him a few days ago. Love it. Guess I need to give up on guys more often :)

Remember that Ricciardi and AA didn't have the Wild card expansion slots to get into the playoffs.

Horwitz just does so many things well at the plate. That was a professional HBP. He could have jumped back but nope. So good.

Oh man that was bad base running by Vladdy. Varsho maybe should have helped him out there though by holding up the stop sign? Hard to say, maybe Varsho couldn’t see where the ball went.

No judgement on him as a person, but I hate watching Guerrero play at this point. Constantly making boneheaded plays, already tonight in the field to cost the only run and now getting tagged out at home by a goddam mile on a bounced pitch. On last night's homer which appeared to clear the wall by all of 6 inches, he was once again just trotting like a gimme homer...he's been burned on that too many times (more than once, ever, in a career is too many) as well. Jays up 3-1, I just turned off the game in disgust to do something else.

The fix is in.

What does that mean, the fix is in?

I’ve been mostly taking a break from watching games lately — a refreshing break from mediocre baseball.

Frustrating game - Jays had a chance to blow it wide open, fail, then Kikuchi has trouble for the first time and is burned by Soto, then they pull him for Pearson who shows why he is a failed prospect. Sigh. I want to believe in this team but stuff like this makes it hard. They aren't out of it but dang this is frustrating. I just have it on in the background now while I do other stuff.

Dont look now but IKF is ahead of Chapman in OPS+

Mostly mistakes of aggression and effort I think, but Guerrero’s had maybe the worst base running season from a Jay that I can remember.

Before today's games IKF was at 1.8 fWAR, Chapman 1.8 as well. Go figure. Chapman a 105 wRC+, IKF 111 before tonight, 116 at the moment (2 for 3 with a HR). Nice job by Atkins there in the end. Even though he did try to hold onto Chapman.

BR WAR has IKF at 2.9, Chapman 2.8, 110 to 107 OPS+ before tonight which only helps IKF (even with the miscue on defense).

Amazed that call was overturned, looked like the runner snuck under Jansen's terrible tag.

1 for 4 in offseason moves - team and GM performing as one!

Mostly mistakes of aggression and effort I think, but Guerrero’s had maybe the worst base running season from a Jay that I can remember.

Before tonight, Vlad had been picked off once and made 3 outs on the bases.

He's scoring 23% of the time (MLB average 31%, Jays 29%).

He's taking the extra base 32% of the time (MLB 42%, Jays 40%).

I thought Vlad was doing better this year with his running.

My impression is that nobody will ever sit him or Bo down and sort some things out.

You know, they might get upset and want to leave, before, uh, they leave.

Another couple of games like this and someone is getting fired.

Vladdy is on pace for between -5.5 and -6 BsR. That’s a number that is really hard to accomplish if you aren’t a slow as molasses C. It will end up being one of the worst base running numbers in baseball.

At what point do the Jays actually do something about Mayza? Convince him to join Swanson in AAA (who is still imploding). And Varsho is probably still hurting. Serven has also been moved up to the taxi squad which suggests Kirk might be banged up.

Jays like to carry hurting players and get 40% from them rather than play it safe and let them rest nagging injuries

Vladdy’s BsR number this year is his worst of his career by a fair margin. Up until the beginning of last year, Vladdy was close to neutral as a base runner. He started declining last year and he’s absolutely cratered this year.

At what point do the Jays actually do something about Mayza? Convince him to join Swanson in AAA (who is still imploding).

As you know, Mayza has accumulated 5 years service time this spring so can refuse a demotion to Buffalo (similar to Biggio's situation).

Mayza watching what has happened to Swanson is all the more reason to not accept a demotion - he's been banished,continued to be awful & has no timetable for return.

Ducey - don't bet on it. I don't see any big changes until the off-season. Not much point to it right now.

Right now our pen imploded thanks to guys like Mazya & Swanson forgetting how to pitch when both were expected to be key's to a solid year. Garcia & Romano, also key pieces, both injured. Those 4 very important pieces being gone for all intents makes Schneider's job much, much harder. Mix in Manoah getting hurt when he finally figures it out and the staff is a nightmare outside of the big 4. The pen is now at the 1983/84 level it seems when pre-season it looked closer to the 92/93 model. Tonight just another example of it - Mayza & Pearson both looked like guys we could count on going into the season and both sucked horribly. Francis now forced to come in back-to-back games and sucking hard.

Most of his other decisions that failed were ones that one can understand - keeping Springer in the lineup hoping for a recovery which finally seems to have come (and then he gets hurt, hopefully not badly). Seeing Bo go from a 120+ OPS+ to a sub 80, Kirk still sucking with the bat, Jansen now sucking too. Kiermaier brought back and goes from a 104 OPS+ to a 56.

At times I've been frustrated too and wanted Schneider fired, but outside of his strong love for Springer there isn't much I can strongly complain about. Atkins... well, he is a solid but unspectacular GM imo. He did rebuild from a 95 loss team to a playoff team quickly, but couldn't get the next step done, and now another rebuild might be needed but fast to avoid another 90+ loss season. Can he do it? No idea, gut says no, but I'm certain we'll find out one way or the other.

John, I'm not saying anyone getting fired is rational. Its just that, for the reasons you mention, there are not a lot of other options. After enough drubbings they have to do something. Turfing the skipper or GM or hitting coach will buy some more time.

why fire anyone after a decade of futility?

stay the course.

Who was that behind the plate impersonating a major league umpire? I can't imagine how bad the scorecard will look, unless the pitch locator icon is somehow off by 6+ inches on Stroman's pitches? He got like 5+ calls of at least half a foot off the plate..

Well firing mid-season rarely works out - 1989 the obvious exception, as was the Phillies in '23. For the Jays this year a change won't get them to the playoffs. As I said, what else could Schneider do? I'd have moved Springer down the order more until he finally started hitting (as he seems to be now), and played the kids more. But a new manager won't make Kirk or Jansen figure out which end of the bat to use, won't magically make Mayza figure out how to get guys out again, won't get the injured pen to get healthy again, or get Bo to start hitting like he can. If he was running the team like Jimy Williams did then yes, a change would help. But he hasn't put Kirk at 3B yet, or got Vlad to tell him to kiss his purple behind. If there is a player revolt happening behind the scenes then yes a change would help, but afaik there isn't one.

That all said, after the season all bets are off. Atkins will be on the firing line, as will all coaches and the manager. I wouldn't be shocked by a lot of firings in early October once the season is officially over unless a miracle happens.

"1 for 4 in offseason moves - team and GM performing as one!"

In terms of decent sized offseason moves (I.e., not minor league deals) there was:

December 28, 2023 Agreed to terms with CF Kevin Kiermaier on a one-year contract.
December 29, 2023 Agreed to terms with 3B Isiah Kiner-Falefa on a two-year contract.
January 30, 2024 Agreed to terms with INF Justin Turner on a one-year contract.
February 9, 2024 Agreed to terms with RHP Yariel Rodriguez on a five-year contract.

KK is 1 year $10.5 M contract. WAR year to date 0.3 (based on 0.5 defensive WAR). Projecting rest of year this will be an overpay by about $5M in a 1 year deal.

IKF is 2 year $15M contract ($7.5 each year). WAR year to date 2.9. Even if he were merely 0 WAR from this point forward this year and next he'd already be worth the contract. This was a major hit (and not necessarily that popular of a pick from the consensus at the time, so kudos to the front office).

Turner is a 1 year $13M contract. WAR year to date is 0.2; however some of that is horrible defense WAR, some is May when he was sick, his OPS+ on the season is 106 and if you skip May much more than that. If you project for the rest of season using non-May data he'll be easily worth his contract especially if he is DH more than in field. If you project based on year to date including May and field play, he'll be an overpay by about $7-8M.

Yariel signed a 5 year $36M contract ($3.3 M so far this year). He's been -0.4 WAR in only 16.2 IP so far this year so a disaster so far, but it is too soon to tell on the 5 year deal.

But if you just take the salary for this year $10.5 + $7.5 + $13 + $3.3 you get $34.3 M. For WAR season to date you get 0.3 + 0.2 + 2.9 + -0.4 = 3.0. At around $10M/WAR the Jays have almost broke even on their 3 FA by the half way point and project to comfortably do so on the full year. So yeah, in one way you can say they are 1 for 4, but I think they are more like 2.5 for 4 with IKF a huge hit, JT about right (most likely), KK a little bit of an overpay but not a disaster, and Yariel too soon to really tell given it is a 5 year play, but the early small sample results are disastrous.

I think you can make a pretty good case for players/gaps not filled (bullpen, offense, etc.), but overall the FA signings were pretty reasonable despite the season so far.

Again it is more the failures of Springer, Bo, Kirk, etc. that have really sunk them (hopefully they are turning things around as Springer has been on fire the last few days), more so than the major league acquisitions (minor league invites like Vogelbach, Votto, etc. I don't think really count much as they are lottery ticket invites).

"Again it is more the failures of Springer, Bo, Kirk, etc. that have really sunk them"

Absolutely. Also, the idea that you can measure free agency like that "1/4" is silly. Like, the Angels signed Ohtani, Zach Cozart,and Rene Rivera in one off season. Is that 1/3? If you sign one horrid contract like Rendon and then two decent minor league deals are you 2/3? Ideally, the Jays sign someone like Pederson instead of a Kiermeier maybe but these aren't moves that would change the trajectory of the season.

Orlando Cepeda passed away.

Michael the problem with that math is that WAR is not linear. A 1 WAR player is not signing a $10m per year contract in free agency. For example, the vast majority of posters on this board said that Biggio would clear waivers because his $4.3 m salary was an overpay. Biggio is pretty much the poster child for a 1 WAR player these days. 1WAR = $10m is a very misunderstood and misused concept. I completely agree with your base points which iare that the failure of the core is the main issue and that so far the IKF signing was very wise (I was definitely wrong on that one). The other large signings have been very poor to date.

Mayza DFA

https://www.umpscorecards.com/single_game/?game_id=744922


Brutal game even lacking context from individual events and impact on game.

In fairness to the Giants, Tom Haller solved their C issue mostly and they added Jim Ray Hart at 3B.  By 1967, they had a great rotation (and gave up the fewest runs in the league), Haller, McCovey, Jim Ray Hart and Mays and really should have been winning, but blew it all in large part because in addition to no offence at all from their double play combination, they somehow not managed to hold on to enough in the corner outfield. 

It was a brutal game from a ball/strike perspective.  Stroman was getting more than an inch or two both down and away, whereas Kikuchi wasn't getting pitches well in the zone particularly to Soto.  VGJ did get one obviously unfair call.  It's reasonably possible that with a fair strike zone, the Blue Jays would have had a larger lead than 3-1, and Kikuchi's pitch to Soto that turned the game would not have been as juicy. 

The Nationals are apparently calling up outfielder James Woods on Monday - I'd say the Nationals have to be happy with the development of the prospects from the Juan Soto trade.

What an ignoble end for the player with the 8th most pitching appearances in club history.

I wonder if the situation with Mayza would have played out differently if handled differently at the beginning of the season? He was clearly not right in spring training and in April. His velocity was way down. Maybe shutting him down early might have helped? I’m not saying it would have or even that Mayza would have agreed with that assessment. But he hasn’t been the same pitcher as he has been historically from day 1 this year.

If they Jays had a decent farm system they could bring up a bright new shiny prospect up. Instead, they are replacing Mayza with Jose Cuas, who they got off waivers last week.

Technically his ERA is better than Mayza's, at 7.43. So there's that.

While I agree WAR isn't linear - a 1 WAR player is basically indistinguishable from a 0 WAR player due to natural variability - the signings this winter only look better with most of the WAR concentrated in one player at a key position (IKF). By fWAR you get 1.9 for IKF vs bWAR of 3.0 - a pretty big spread. BR has his defense WAR at #1 in the AL (1.6 bWAR of value there), fWAR has him at 5.0 runs (1/2 a WAR) #1 at 3B but #21 in MLB.

Turner gets a defensive penalty for being a DH plus his May was horrific (8 wRC+) vs April 151 and June 171. Basically outside of the month he was sick he has been every bit as good as Ohtani. Sweet. FYI: his July has been 160+ for each of the past 3 years so lets keep our fingers crossed.

Kiermaier? Well, there is a disaster. 55 wRC+ but his defense has kept his WAR over 0, barely. Guess that is the plus with him, even if he forgets which end of the bat to use he still has value if used properly and often he has been - defensive replacement late for one of the kids.

Yariel Rodriguez I wrote off 2024 for pre-season, he didn't pitch at all in 2023 and in an ideal world he would be in AA or AAA building up innings this year but the Jays pitching is FAR from ideal right now so he is taking his lumps at the big league level instead. Hopefully he is stronger in 2025 and beyond, as with a starting pitcher one good year can recover the entire value of his 5 year deal and 2 or 3 good years puts the Jays far ahead.

So, as always Atkins does well on free agency. IKF I was meh at best, not happy with the cash vs expected performance. I'm happy I was wrong. Turner outside of May has been very, very good. Kiermaier ... well ... his desire to up his power stats to get a better deal was obviously a flop - you can't switch from a singles hitter to a power hitter easily as he is learning. Hopefully things get better soon, but worst case he is an overpaid 4th OF.

FYI: Springer's hot streak has pushed him up to an 82 wRC+, still poor but not league worst territory anymore. Plus he is a positive in fWAR now at 0.6. Other old free agents still here - Kikuchi has been as good as we could hope, Bassitt solid, Gausman weak but all 3 are 1+ fWAR so far so hardly disasters. Vogelbach was a flop (but not that expensive), Clement has been good (like Vogelbach a minor league FA signing), Green when healthy has been solid. No nightmare free agent signings yet for Atkins - I think Kendrys Morales was his only real 'oh crap' signing which is good.

With Mayza DFA is it the beginning of the end?

Reports are now out to that Vlad and Bo never came close to resigning here during extension talks. Is that because they were not offered fair contracts or due to a refusal to stay with this organization long term?

Can the organization still sign one of them to build around or are they l looking at a brand new rebuild in 2026 with Shapiro and Atkins at the end of their contracts?

I’m guessing that one reason the front office went so hard after Ohtani was to pivot from Guerrero Jr. and Bichette to another superstar who would generate more revenue and be just as (if not more) valuable on the field.

I think you're so right on that. How can they salvage their A grade pitching staff and get a clean up hitter and a LHH all in one shot? Ohtani. It would have allowed them to shore up the bullpen and then use their prospects like Tiedeman more easily as trade chips. Trade Vlad or Bo in the off season if things didn't max out and you still have a good rotation and core hitter for 2025.

If Bo and Vlad are no where close on extensions with the team, then it would be irresponsible if they are still on the team post-trade deadline given how this season has turned out. The team doesn't even have to tank or rebuild if Rogers is against it. Just maximize value on both players, and reallocate payroll to improve the roster in the winter. I would prefer a reasonable extension for Vlad (even if it's an overpay based on his history) but losing both for comp picks or trading them for scraps this time next year is just repeating the same mistake they made in 2017.

If they sell Bo and Vlad and blow it up don't expect any major signings in the offseason. They're not gonna keep spending big money while blowing it up. And no free agent will be interested anyways.

Free agents don't come here without an overpay. Gausman, Bassitt, Ryu, Springer, Martin...if you overpay they will come.

For the love of god don’t let him pitch through this. That was right off his forearm at a zillion miles an hour. I get the bullpen is a horrible disaster but…

The pen reminds me of 2021. Tyler Chatwood was bad. So was Kay.
Saucedo and Borucki were inconsistent. Phelps was great but mostly injured.
They picked up guys here and there on waivers. Castro, Payamps, Barnes.

Nice arm by Kirk. He's really doing well by defensive stats this year.

Vlad on fire again. Good thing they brought the HR jacket back.

Vlad up to a 141wrc+ at the moment. That's on the way between "very good" hitter and "excellent" hitter.

And all the numbers have suggested it was only a matter of time before the elite power showed up again so there's good reason to think it's more than just a hot power streak.

Its the haircut.

Bo needs a buzzcut

espn.com: "Jordan Romano has been shut down because of continued pain in his injured right elbow, manager John Schneider said Saturday. The two-time All-Star will visit Dr. Keith Meister in Texas on Tuesday, Schneider said."

To my eye it seems like Kirk doesn’t have the strongest arm in the world, but he’s gotten much better at getting rid of the ball quickly (less deliberate than he used to be) and his throws (especially day) have been right on the money bags.

Now if he could just find where ever it was he left his bat (today’s double not withstanding)

Boy, it is nice to see this non-cooked version of George again.

18 RBI in 6 games for Vlad, which is better than anyone else this season in baseball according to the TV coverage.

The team looks a lot better when the offense is clicking like this.

"The team looks a lot better when the offense is clicking like this."


Yes, this is the team I've been expecting to show up all year. Better late than never.

He's BAAA-AAAK....

Cuas doing a good Mayza imitation. First batter HR.

i guess reminding vlad that he's allowed to hit fastballs worked.

Ducey, what kind of imitation are Vlad and Springer doing right now?

Should the Blue Jays have extended Vladdy in the off-season, when his market value was lower? He’s now hitting like a star again, maybe taking him out of the sweet spot of shared risk.

If they can’t extend him, next month might be a good time to trade him. He has a wRC+ of 143 at the moment (excellent).

I wouldn't worry about extensions right now. We finally are seeing the team we hoped for (outside of the pen), lets just enjoy this for now. In a month the Jays will need to make a final decision on contender or not.

Vlad is back, and has indicated that he might want to stay here forever in the past, anything he said about the Yankees and the like is just negotiating. He has no ability to leave on his own until post 2025, same for Bo. Extension negotiations will get serious this winter with both and if a match can't be made the Jays will need to decide if offers for them are worth the PR hit of losing them in deals vs free agency. If the Jays want to pay whatever it costs to keep them they can afford it as shown with the Ohtani negotiations and past signings (Springer, Gausman, etc.). I expect the Jays to be chasing Soto hard this winter (he has Boras as an agent and has flip flopped from team to team so cash is all he cares about - probably $500 mil over 10+ years) ZiPS sees him as a near 6 WAR player for the next 3 years at least, and he has done nothing to bring that down this year. That is a $60 mil player thus paying $50 a year over 10 = $500 mil for ages 26-35, his core years, anything after that should be seen as bonus (IE: $500 mil over 15 years to cut the luxury tax hit, but need the value in years 1-10) That requires 50 WAR - a tall order but at 33 now that puts him in the 80's - a HOF lock, and right now I'd have trouble believing he won't do that. I expect the Yankees or Mets will give him what he wants, but if he decides the NY environment isn't ideal the Jays will have the cash to match if they want to.

Vlad channeled daddy on that 3 run double.

Gotta follow up on my previous comment about Bassitt. Clearly my initial reaction of “he took a laser off his pitching arm for gods sake he can probably barely feel the right side of his body take him out before he pulls anything!”… was thankfully proved incorrect. The instant Judge hit that right off his arm I instantly was hoping it would be a brief 10 day IL stint.

Alas. I underestimated Bassitt. He got his way out of that tricky first inning, with his pitching arm at best feeling throbby… and emerged for the rest of the start with very tight sleeves along his pitching arm. To contain the swelling, one presumes.

And he still pitched great anyhow! It wasn’t a fanciful run of clean innings, no… but he just out-thinks hitters with his silly array of any pitch, any speed, in any place at any time. It’s often not pretty, but he just gets it done.