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No team in the majors has played more games away from home than the Blue Jays. This is why most of their remaining games - 22 of 34, to be precise - will be in their own yard.


It's too bad they've actually had a better record on the road than at home in 2023, but there's enough time left to change that.

We saw the Guardians just two weeks ago. They haven't changed much since then. Despite all the injury problems with their pitching staff, they're still very good at preventing the other fellow from scoring - not quite as good as Toronto, but close. But they have even more trouble scoring any runs themselves. Josh Naylor is still on the IL, which leaves them with exactly one good hitter.

The Guardians are expecting to get their injured starting pitchers - Cal Quantrill, Shane Bieber, Triston McKenzie - back on the field before the season is over. It'll be too late to save this season, but should make everyone feel better heading into the winter. There is, as there usually is this time of year, speculaton that this might be the last time around the park for Terry Francona, who has had any number of health issues in recent years.

You will probably recall the four games the Jays played in Cleveland - it was barely two weeks ago. It was precisely what you would expect to see when two offensively challenged teams with very good pitching hooked up with one another. The two teams scored just 13 runs between them in the four games, two of which were settled by 1-0 scores.

Mon 7 Aug: Toronto 3 Cleveland 1 - A pitcher's duel between Ryu and Williams, although a line drive off his knee ended Ryu's night after four shutout innings. No one was able to score until Cavan Biggio belted a two-run homer in the eighth inning. The Guardians loaded the bases against Hicks in the ninth, just to keep it tense.

Tue 8 Aug: Toronto 0 Cleveland 1 - Kikuchi allowed just three hits over seven innings, but two of them came on consecutive at bats to begin the second inning, and produced the game's only run. The Jays loaded the bases with one out in the third, but Springer and Varsho fanned; Varsho led off the ninth with a bunt single and promptly stole second, but was still standing on third when Kirk flied out to end it.

Wed 9 Aug: Toronto 1 Cleveland 0 - So the Jays hung a 1-0 loss on the other guys. Springer homered in the first inning, and Gausman made it stand up. Cleveland made a couple of outs on the bases to help out

Thu 10 Aug: Toronto 3 Cleveland 4 - What brought on this stunning offensive explosion? Could it have been Alek Manoah and Noah Syndergaard? That's my theory. Trailing 4-1, the Jays rallied in the seventh. Hits from Biggio, Merrifield, and Belt scored two runs. A Guerrero walk put the go-ahead run on base. But Springer struck out, Kirk popped out, and Schneider struck out.


Matchups

Fri 25 Aug - Bibee (9-3, 3.01) vs Bassitt (12-6, 3.92)
Sat 26 Aug - Allen (6-6, 3.31) vs Ryu (2-1, 1.89)
Sun 27 Aug - Syndergaard (1-2, 4.94) vs Kikuchi (9-4, 3.52)
Cleveland at Toronto, August 25-27 | 179 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Petey Baseball - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 01:57 PM EDT (#435057) #
Also, regarding Chapman, if you take out the first few weeks of the season his numbers are probably pretty ugly. I think he's actually been the opposite of consistent this year, he's coasted a lot off that torrid beginning.

There's nothing to say that the last month won't be the best one for Chapman, Vlad, Kirk and Springer, though. Last years team was the exact same record 70-58 as last. But we're grasping at straws, here IMO. They're very clearly the third best team in the division (at best, since the Yankees had a ton of injuries this season), and after eight years of Shapiro and Atkins talking about championship caliber it's beginning to feel like some inexcusable excuses are covering up bad moves by the front office and underperformance on the field.
Ryan Day - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 02:49 PM EDT (#435058) #
But you can't take out the first few weeks of the season. They count just as much as any weeks.

Chapman's just a streaky hitter - his OPS by month last year went 712, 571, 851, 1.095, 685, 660. In 2021, it was 695, 618, 875, 540, 964, 604.

Sometimes he looks like a superstar, sometimes he looks like he should be in AAA, at the end of the season he looks like Matt Chapman.
Petey Baseball - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 02:56 PM EDT (#435059) #
I agree with you Ryan and I don't argue with the numbers. My original post was in defence of Jansen, and yes, naming Chapman as a player that's underachieved. Which is correct, in my view.
Petey Baseball - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 03:02 PM EDT (#435060) #
I should have put him at the back of the list behind the more glaring ones (Kirk, Springer, Guerrero).

John Northey - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 03:13 PM EDT (#435061) #
For fun, Chapman end of April was at 384/465/687 - an insane 1.152 OPS. Since he has hit 210/301/359 - a sad 660 OPS. Of course, without that hot April the Jays probably wouldn't be in the playoff picture. For comparison, Gurriel Jr peaked on June 10th at 309/357/559 916 OPS, since has hit 213/261/373 for a 635 OPS with his usual 'defense'. Nice thing with Chapman is even if his bat sucks his defense is still high end. Sadly the Jays could've had Ha-Seong Kim if they just guaranteed him a ML roster slot but they refused and SD gave him it, so he sucked with the bat in 2021 but now has a 129 OPS+ and gold glove defense. Sigh. That I blame Atkins on for sure. All reports said he wanted to play here thanks to Ryu selling him on us.

Now, for 2023 the key is the next 15 games - go 10-5 or better and the playoffs should be a strong possibility. Houston in those 15 has Detroit, Boston (fighting for playoff lives), NYY (trying to salvage a nightmare season), Texas (no matter who wins, Jays win when those 2 play each other), and SD (see Boston). Houston's rest stage is next with Oakland, KC, Baltimore (not rest), KC, before a key 3 games vs Seattle and finishing vs Arizona (in a WC spot right now ... barely). Seattle next 15 is KC-Oak-Mets (easy stretch), then Cin (playoff 1/2 game out), TB. That stretch is followed by LAA-LAD-Oak then their playoff deciding 10 game stretch vs Tex-Hou-Tex. That finishing kick for Texas vs Seattle is a big plus for the Jays as one of them has to lose at least 4 games out of 7 in those final 10 games. Texas plays Min-NYM-Min-Hou-Oak before seeing the Jays. Then Cle-Bos-Sea-LAA-Sea to finish it.

The Jays nightmare is that final stretch of Tex-Bos-NYY-TBR-NYY-TBR, the only plus being the Rays might be setting their playoff rotation and trying to get focused for the playoffs instead of worrying about beating the Jays. The Yankees are playing out the string now, Boston might be near elimination by then, and Texas is one of the teams the Jays need to try to pass to get into the playoffs. If the Jays get hot for that stretch then the top wild card slot is possible, if they slump then missing the playoffs is likely. The next 15 they really do need 10+ wins during to be in good shape before that killer end. Seattle vs Texas a lot in those final days is a big plus though.
Ryan Day - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#435062) #
I don't think he's underachieved, based on his career. He's got a 112 OPS+; last year was 116. He's not as good as he was in his best years in Oakland, but not many players are as good in their 30s as they were in their 20s.

The home runs have dropped off a lot, but he's leading the league in doubles, which isn't too shabby.

Maybe part of the issue is that while he's spent a lot of time hitting 4/5 this year, last year he was 5/6/7, which feels more appropriate for his results.
hypobole - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 04:03 PM EDT (#435063) #
If the Jays don't win 11 of the next 15, they don't deserve to make the playoffs.
greenfrog - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#435064) #
If the Jays can’t hit Kremer and Gibson, why are we assuming they’ll be able to hit Logan and Allen (who have lower ERAs than the O’s starters)?
scottt - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#435065) #
April counts as much as any other months.
That's true in general, but April is the month of anomalous performances.
I'd sign a guy who had a fantastic September but I'd pass on a guy who had an amazing April.

Only 1 HR and 3 doubles in August so far and batting .191 for the month.

That's when Bichette messed up his knee and the replacement had 3 hits in 13 games and they needed everybody to step up.

Which reminds me that Kirk is hitting .174 in August with 1 double and no other extra base hits.

Guerrero is hitting .263 for the month with 1 HR and 4 doubles, not great either.

Kiermaier has had the same time of season as Chapman had, but not has many people have noticed.
OPS of .732 in April, 1.044 in May (fantastic), but .472, .696 and .643 so far.
KK hurting his elbow in Boston is what allowed Schneider to play a bit.

Varsho has an .876 OPS in August. He was bad in July/April, average in May/June.

They really don't have much flexibility despite what they like to say.
They can't bench Chapman or Guerrero or Kirk.
The coach isn't eager to write Espinal's name in a must win game lineup.

Merrifield has cooled down but these are the same pitchers who make Schneider look bad not that long ago.
Decisions...

greenfrog - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#435066) #
I’m not convinced April performances are more anomalous than September performances. I would need to see data to support that proposition.

I doubt the Jays problems are going to be solved overnight. I don’t expect them to go on a big winning streak. I think they need to try to hold fast as best they can, win as many series as they can, and hope to scrape ahead of the competition by season’s end. There is a wide range of potential outcomes for this team, on a continuum from good to bad to ugly.
uglyone - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#435067) #
a september stat doesn't SEEM as anomalous, but that's only because a month of stats doesn't move the season statsline nearly as much at the end of the year as it does at the start.
Petey Baseball - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 05:17 PM EDT (#435068) #
One thing I would do is reset the lineup: Put Springer back in the lead-off followed with Bo and Vlad. I'd even move Chapman back to cleanup. If we're thinking these guys are going to return to career norms the lineup should look like:

Springer
Bichette
Guerrero
Chapman
Belt
Merrifield
Varsho
Jansen
Kiermaier
Leaside Cowboy - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 06:40 PM EDT (#435069) #
The size of foul territory in Rogers Centre has been discussed. The absence of a rain-tarp creates less obstruction and wider space.
hypobole - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 07:35 PM EDT (#435070) #
Looks like Schneider benched Jansen. :)
greenfrog - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 07:49 PM EDT (#435071) #
Vladdy, what the heck? You used to be an OK fielder.
Mike Green - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 07:50 PM EDT (#435072) #
The defensive numbers for Guerrero Jr. look to be quite accurate to me.  It's hard to believe that he won a Gold Glove. 
mathesond - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 07:54 PM EDT (#435073) #
Guess all that work with Mattingly didn't pay off.
greenfrog - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#435074) #
Balls (literally) through his glove, bounced throws to 1B not caught, ground balls missed…maybe these plays stand out more because of his offensive woes. But it feels like he used to play a sharper first base.
greenfrog - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 08:07 PM EDT (#435075) #
Two-run home run allowed on an 0-2 pitch with two out. Ouch.
Mike Green - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 08:16 PM EDT (#435076) #
Poor send by Rivera.  The relay was offline and they still got VGJ. 
greenfrog - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 08:24 PM EDT (#435077) #
What is the ratio of poor send decisions to good send decisions for Rivera? 1:3, maybe?
Mike Green - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 08:33 PM EDT (#435078) #
Dear Buck,

Kirk has fouled off a bunch of ball 4s.  This is not good. 
christaylor - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 08:44 PM EDT (#435079) #
Is the ship sinking?
dalimon5 - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 08:45 PM EDT (#435080) #
Wouldn't surprise me if someone wrote "the ship is sinking" ala Shea back in the day.

I want to br surprised in other ways, this team can be so damn good it almost hurts.
Mike Green - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#435081) #
I would have taken Bassitt out after the Laureano double.
greenfrog - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 08:52 PM EDT (#435082) #
Schneider is hard to figure out that way. In high stakes games, he often seems to leave starting pitchers in too long (when the pitcher no longer has it) or take them out too early (when the pitcher still has it).
uglyone - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 08:52 PM EDT (#435083) #
dalimon5 - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#435084) #
"Schneider is hard to figure out that way. In high stakes games, he often seems to leave starting pitchers in too long (when the pitcher no longer has it) or take them out too early (when the pitcher still has it)."

Bad bad not good.
dalimon5 - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#435085) #
Let's go Vladdy...lets see the impaler again.
dalimon5 - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#435086) #
I'll take responsibility for that :)
Petey Baseball - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 09:10 PM EDT (#435087) #
That looked like 2021 Vladdy there. Followed the pitch all the way in and hammered it.
Polite Nate - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 09:11 PM EDT (#435088) #
In my estimation, definitely not going to look it up to verify, they will leave a starter in to eat an extra inning in a game they are losing, but have a relatively quick hook in a tie game or a game with a close lead. And this was how it was under Montoyo, and honestly I think going back further than that, so it feels to me more of an org philosophy, or maybe just Walker.
Honestly, I agree with it. If it's a tight game it only takes one bad pitch to turn it, leverage is not symmetrical, and a half decent reliever is going to be better than the 95th pitch of any starter 9 out of 10 days, even if the starter is quote unquote "dealing".
greenfrog - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#435089) #
I guess then I don’t know why they wouldn’t apply that philosophy down 3-1 in an important game in a tight playoff race. Instead Schneider left Bassitt in and he gave up another run.
uglyone - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 09:27 PM EDT (#435090) #
greenfrog - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 09:32 PM EDT (#435091) #
Tough month for Whit, wRC+ around 60
Chuck - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 09:41 PM EDT (#435092) #
The Mexican catcher has a goalie style mask and the Canadian catcher has a traditional mask.
lexomatic - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 10:45 PM EDT (#435093) #
<bDoes this team need a psychologist?
99BlueJaysWay - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 11:15 PM EDT (#435094) #
Yes lexo
christaylor - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 11:25 PM EDT (#435095) #
If they haven't had one on staff since y'know Roy Halladay I question the acumen of the front office. Dorfman whom Halladay worked may not have had a degree in psych but reading his books he comes across an intuitive Psychologist.

Even if the team sneaks into the playoffs a new hitting coach and manager are necessary. The GM and president have done a good job assembling talent for this year -- the manager and hitting staff seem... easy to improve upon.
John Northey - Friday, August 25 2023 @ 11:33 PM EDT (#435096) #
If only, during this offense slump, there was a batter who has hit game winning home runs recently. One who could play at our weakest offensive positions (2B/LF). Sigh, if only.

Yeah, this is getting very frustrating to watch. Vlad showing signs of getting going, but it won't mean much if the manager keeps playing the wrong guys game in, game out. Merrifield needs a few days off - he plays full out all the time and a few days off wouldn't hurt him. Springer has shown signs of getting going, but also not, which is so frustrating - he might need more days off too so do a rotation, Schneider gets a game in RF, game at 2B, game in LF, keep giving key guys some rest so they can heal up a bit for the September push. If Schneider keeps hitting, keep finding ways to get him in the lineup.

Sometimes I wonder if the Jays now are getting the Mattingly curse - he has never been to a WS as a player or coach or manager afaik. The he won two playoff series - his first as a manager, 3-1 over Atlanta in 2013 while running the Dodgers and in 2020's WC with Florida before getting swept in round 2 by the Braves.

Sigh. This is a snakebit team it seems. But if they sneak into the playoffs somehow then who knows? Maybe then the offense will finally take off (no more facing 7th/8th starters who seem to drive these guys nuts).
Michael - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 02:38 AM EDT (#435097) #
At least with Vlad getting thrown out at the plate it looked like he was running really hard the whole way. Not on him at all, fully on 3b coach - and on the defense for executing OK enough on the play.
Leaside Cowboy - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 07:38 AM EDT (#435098) #
The Yankees won the pennant the season prior to Mattingly's rookie year and the season following his retirement.
dalimon5 - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 08:57 AM EDT (#435101) #
Credit to Vlad for the hustle and approach in the box yesterday. Continuation of that can go a long way to lengthening this line up.

Schneider may be becoming a problem. Barker who is close with him has said multiple times that Schneider will not take orders for line up construction from "the khakis" upstairs. If true it appears he is the one who cannot exercise good judgement.

lexomatic - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 11:19 AM EDT (#435104) #
The team has been SO BAD in August
"Hitting" 22GP .237 .306 .389 93 wRC 
League in that time .238 .300. 415 97 wRC so only a little below average.
6 teams worse by baserunning -1.4 runs 7 teams worse by batting runs -8.6 17th in fielding runs 23rd in fWAR
FWIW SEA was 289 372 482 141 wRC (1st) tie 7th baserunning 1st batting runs 13th in fielding 1st in WAR during the same time.

per Fangraphs, positive contributions hitters:Belt 1.1 WAR (80PA) Schneider 0.6 (36PA) Varsho 0.6 (75 PA) Springer 0.5 (86 PA) Jansen 0.2 (45 PA mostly D) Clement 0.1 (1PA) 0.1 (51 PA bad D)

Great to see Springer & Varsho pick it up. Would love to see Springer with more than mid 20s HR pace, though.
Neutral:Lukes (5) Guerrero Jr (89) Bichette (27) Kiermaier (31)

Guerrero on a pace for the worst 1b D I can remember on FG -20+ pace Also terrible base running and 15 HR power

NegativesMerrifield -0.1 (96) -0.1 Kirk (55) -0.2 Chapman (76) -0.2 Espinal (34) -0.9 Dejong (44)
SS -1.1 WAR in one month is BRUTAL. The number of people with minimal playing time and top performances....
PitchingI'm going to do a bit less here Team ERA 3.38 FIP 3.78 xFIP 4.01 pretty solid but only 11-11
Tie 2nd pitching fWAR 3.6 ERA 3rd behind SEA FIP tie - 5th SEA 1st xFIP TOR 9 SEA 3rd
CLE 8-14 with 3.44 ERA everybody else around us LA (2.77 20-3, SEA 3.22 17-5, ATL 3.39 16-7, MIL 3.51 14-7, TEX 3.67 12-10, BAL 3.50 15-7, PHI 3.82 13-9

StartersKikuchi has been a monster, Gausman has been okay, Ryu has been good w/ great era, Bassit mediocre, Berrios is bad but not brutal. Those last 2 are giving up TOO MANY HRs. Manoah bad but better than before.
Kikuchi 1.1 Gausman 0.6 Ryu 0.5 0.1 0.1 0 All told a big positive but 8-9 record
RelieversGreat performance and sustainabilty (xFIP etc)Swanson (9ip) & Romano (3IP)

Great performance,  not so sustainable but still ok
Cabrera (9.2), Garcia (7.2), Mayza (7.2) Francis (12.1 IP)
This group had great ERA, but lack of K or other stats to justify expected good results
Bad performance but expected to do better by statsHatch (2.1 ip)
Bad but expected long term sustainability by statsHicks & Richardstoo many HR and too few runners picked up by others.

BadJackson -0.1 (5 ip) Pearson -0.1 (2ip) Only negatives this month.

Made an appearance Danner
This has been really depressing to look at. Terrible time to slump and waste the pitching.
lexomatic - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 11:26 AM EDT (#435105) #
Ugh

2023 Guerrero -16.6 96 GP

2022 N Lowe -18.6 150 GP

2021 N Lowe -13.8 148 GP

2019 Hosmer -18.3 157gp

2018 Hosmer -17.4 157 gp

2017 J Bell -15.6 147 gp

2016 J Votto -19.2 154 GP

2015 P Alvarez -19,6 124 Gp

2014 R Howard -13.9 141 GP

2013 P Fielder -14.3 151 GP

greenfrog - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 01:18 PM EDT (#435109) #
Felix Bautista has an arm injury of some sort. This is obviously bad news for the O’s. He’s been one of their most valuable players.
dalimon5 - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#435110) #
That completely shakes up their bullpen and by some extension their starting 6.
dalimon5 - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 02:56 PM EDT (#435111) #
Judging by the drop off in comments it seems Beauxites have tuned out from this team.
vw_fan17 - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#435112) #
I'm still watching by skipping through the game on replay.. 15-20 minutes or so. But, it's hard to stay "tuned in" when half the team plays like they're looking forward to the links, and the manager seems to have no clue.
Chuck - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 03:21 PM EDT (#435113) #
Nothing but batting practise fastballs from Allen today. Even the outs are loud.
uglyone - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 03:29 PM EDT (#435114) #
imagine getting a gift like schneider and not even bothering trying to use it.
greenfrog - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#435115) #
Schneider is hitting .387/.486/.806 after the home run. Oh, and he hustles.
lexomatic - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#435116) #
So many squandered baserunning.
At least it's a good start. I wonder if we hear aboit a player's meeting soon.
scottt - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 03:40 PM EDT (#435117) #
Part of it is the 3 days off they just got.
Now that this is out of the way, it should be easier to get Schneider some ABs to "rest" the regulars.

scottt - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#435118) #
It's more a bunch of quick player-coach meetings to let the skipper know what he's doing wrong.
dalimon5 - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#435119) #
At this point I can't see how the FO would want to bring Schneider back barring a sudden change of tempo. I would much rather they make a coaching change in season than in the off season.
Ducey - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#435120) #
I have given up on Vlad. Maybe next year he will smarten up
krose - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 04:23 PM EDT (#435121) #
When I watch Schneider hit, can’t help but wonder who else at Buffalo could help make the Jays a more competitive hitting team.
krose - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#435122) #
There is some underlying problem with this team. The lack of hitting and timely errors are symptoms. Did anyone else notice the lack of enthusiasm for Schneider after his hits. He has to sit alone on the bench and nobody talks to him.
greenfrog - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#435123) #
How can Espinal be starting on this team? He has an OPS in the 500s. His defense is no longer very good.
lexomatic - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 04:51 PM EDT (#435124) #
There is some underlying problem with this team

I haven't watched enough games to see evidemce of this.
Anybody else notice it? How long?
Anybody else getting ostracized?

Questions... is it a player led culture thing, or a hardass manager culture thing?

It just feels like super bad vibes on this team
SK in NJ - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 04:51 PM EDT (#435125) #
The fact that Davis Schneider on a hot streak barely plays on a team this bad offensively is ridiculous. I've said before, this is just not a fun team to watch even when they are winning, and are unwatchable when they are struggling. Bad managing and boring station to station offense (unless it's the one day a week that Davis starts, in which case there might be a HR or two).
John Northey - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 04:55 PM EDT (#435126) #
Agreed Greenfrog. Espinal in the lineup is nuts - at this point he is needing the Zimmer treatment, last guy in. Hard to believe how fast he has collapsed since mid-season last year. Schneider needs to be left in the lineup no matter what right now. Rotate days off to get him in.
99BlueJaysWay - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#435127) #
Why is it nuts? They’re trying to get Bo off his feet, and Espinal is the only other SS on the roster.

With resting Bo as a requirement, who would you play at short today? Davis Schneider?

I don’t understand what everyone was expecting Schneider to do.
greenfrog - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#435128) #
I think the concern is that the Jays don’t have a better player than Espinal on the roster to play 2B/SS in that role.

It’s pretty crazy that Schneider was on the bench while the O’s middling starting pitchers were completely shutting down the Jays offense.
krose - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 05:18 PM EDT (#435129) #
Sure would like to see what Horowitz could do for this offence.
Glevin - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#435130) #
I would have kept dejong over Espinal as backup. Can't hit either but he's a better defender at least. Espinal has flexibility which the Jays seem to love but being very bad with the ability to play multiple positions seems not very valuable and the Jays insistence in playing him over Schneider and sometimes Biggio is beyond baffling. Since Schneider went 0/4 for the first time after being hot, Espinal has had 19 PAs at a non SS position. Schneider has had 17. That is crazy to me.
99BlueJaysWay - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#435131) #
I was just about to post about how Varsho has really turned his season around and then that slide. I hope he’s ok
uglyone - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#435132) #
Yeah i have no problem with espinal spelling Bo but that should be the only time he ever plays. We just don't need him for anything else.
Petey Baseball - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 05:29 PM EDT (#435133) #
I was always lukewarm on Schneider as manager. He was the logical in-house choice to do the interim job once Montoyo lost the clubhouse midway through last season. Frankly, I thought the time to replace Montoyo was after the '21 season. There were several terrible tactical and strategic errors he made down the stretch that cost then the postseason, IMO. Go back and read the game threads from those games, and many would agree.

The team did play a bit better under J.S. last season, but I still believe they needed (and still need) a steadier, more confident tactician (mostly when dealing with the pitching staff) and someone who can evaluate and deploy the 26 man roster better. The fact Davis Schneider has been stapled to the bench the last three weeks when the guy clearly can play, is unacceptable. Putting Varsho in the cleanup spot and keeping him there when he was clearly losing confidence was also a big error.


Also, many thought that John Schneider's minor league success with Vlad, Bo, Biggio and Espinal were a strong point. Maybe so, but to me, an outside voice, an experienced voice, would help teach these guys a few other aspects of the game at the big league level. It seems to me Schneider is not able to properly hold these guys accountable for their mental mistakes (they continue to happen far too often). You can't coddle your players, no matter how important they are. The latest Bichette baserunning gaffe deserves a benching just as much as Jansen's gambit the other night in Baltimore.

Those are just my brief observations.

krose - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 05:31 PM EDT (#435134) #
Keeping Dejong would have been a reasonable alternative. What about bringing up Barger? He would have the opportunity to get major league experience and could actually be a good bat for third as well as ss.
Magpie - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#435135) #
The team did play a bit better under J.S. last season

They played .622 ball for Schneider after playing .523 ball for Montoyo, which certainly qualifies as a bit better.
99BlueJaysWay - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#435136) #
Dejong had literally the worst month in Blue Jays history. Ugly posted the numbers. I don’t understand wanting to keep that around. With Bo coming off an injury it was obvious they were going to need someone to play, so keeping Dejong as a defensive replacement only wasn’t an option. Espinal is absolutely not living up to his potential, but he’s producing better than dejong now, and over the past few years.

Barger plays 3B and lately RF. If you bring him up you’re sitting Chapman or Springer. That’s not going to happen
Petey Baseball - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#435137) #
OK fair enough, Magpie but I guess I'm also considering the fact they played poorly in the playoff series against Seattle which was under Schneider of course. If I remember correctly the skipper was criticized for his role in that.
jerjapan - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 06:00 PM EDT (#435138) #
Great win, great game for the pen, hope Swanson is OK.

I genuinely would pick Rafael Lantigua as the best choice for a position player call up. I would also consider swapping Clement and Aspinall, but I doubt they do that for chemistry reasons.
greenfrog - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 06:08 PM EDT (#435139) #
What happened to Swanson?
Petey Baseball - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 06:09 PM EDT (#435140) #
Another development this season I've been a bit confounded with is the decision to move Springer out of the leadoff spot. Bad season or not, he's the most accomplished position player on this team, and being the career leader in home runs from the leadoff spot is nothing to sneeze at. If I'm Springer, a bad stretch doesn't warrant me being removed from the spot I've hit in basically my entire successful career. Have nothing solid to back this up, but to me that doesn't scream "great clubhouse vibes" to slight your most successful veteran player.

Then again, Schneider did drop Bo down and moved him back up once he heated up last year, so maybe that's the plan with George. I hope so, because Springer remains the X-Factor on this team, IMO.


lexomatic - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 06:10 PM EDT (#435141) #
I heard obliques for Swanson
Petey Baseball - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 06:10 PM EDT (#435142) #
Paging Chad Green...
hypobole - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 06:14 PM EDT (#435143) #
I'd also consider the Clement/Espinal swap. As for chemistry, does this team even have it? I'm saying they don't, but I see very little indication that they do.
greenfrog - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#435144) #
Swanson has been used heavily this season—career high in appearances (59) and there’s still more than a month left in the regular season. Maybe not surprising that he’s injured.
hypobole - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#435145) #
S/B "I'm NOT saying they don't have chemistry.
Magpie - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#435147) #
What happened to Swanson?

"Right mid-back discomfort."

Hey, I get that.
Leaside Cowboy - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 07:13 PM EDT (#435148) #
Yimi García came up big.
Magpie - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 07:44 PM EDT (#435149) #
they played poorly in the playoff series against Seattle which was under Schneider of course. If I remember correctly the skipper was criticized for his role in that.

Schneider took some heat for bringing in Mayza to face Santana, but they still had a three run lead with nine outs remaining after that. Did the team really play that badly? Three guys - Manoah, Bass, Romano - certainly pitched badly, and that was more than enough to lose the two games.
scottt - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#435150) #
Why would they have a better player than Espinal as their bench middle infielder?
Bichette plays everyday. They have Merrifield, Biggio and now Schneider fighting for second base.

When Bo got hurt, they immediately got a player better than Espinal to play every day and he actually played worse than Espinal, so they released him.

Schneider not getting a shot comes down to the regulars being well rested and Biggio swinging a decent bat lately.

John Northey - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#435151) #
Swanson has been used a lot - 14 times without a days rest (biggest stress) - the 2nd day of those he ranged from 7 to 24 pitches, day before 5 to 21, net for 2 days between 13 and 41. His range for games is 4 to 28. Not counting today. In the minors his peak innings was 121 2/3 when he was a starter (22 starts, 2 relief as a Yankee in A-,AA,AAA in 2018).

For comparison 0 days rest: Mayza 14, Garcia 12, Romano 9, Richards 7, Cimber 5, Pearson 5, rest 4 or less. Maybe Schneider needs to do that a bit less often with Swanson. Last year Cimber had 20, Mayza 19, Romano 16, Garcia & Richards 11 each, Phelps 10, Bass 9, rest 3 or fewer.

Lets hope it isn't bad, but with Green pretty much ready and a deep pen (Romano-Richards-Garcia-Mayza-Hicks-Cabrera-Francis have all become trusted now in their roles) the timing is good if an injury had to happen, plus it isn't to Romano or Hicks, plus it is during a softer part of the schedule. Just hope Varsho's knee isn't hurt as that was one butt ugly slide.
hypobole - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 08:00 PM EDT (#435152) #
Here's something that shocked me.

July 21st onward the Jays have won 17 games after today's win. The mediocre 17-16 record in that span is not shocking to anyone who's watched them play. The team with the fewest wins, 9, are the White Sox - no shock there.

So who have played well? The teams with the most wins in that span are the red hot Mariners with 25 after today's victory and the Dodgers with 24 after today's loss.

It's #3 that's the shock. Their 23 wins July 21st onward are more than either Atlanta or Baltimore. The answer? It's the team we face next, the Washington Nationals.
Magpie - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#435153) #
When the tale of the 2023 Blue Jays is written, a large part of the story will be about a few hitters who failed to live up to expectations. How do I know? Well, I do plan to write the story myself.

Of course I have no intention of doing this writing until the last out is recorded, but let me present a quick and dirty way to demonstrate what's On My Mind, such as it is. Let's take Matt Chapman, who came into this season with a career OPS+ of 119. This season (through Friday's games, as all this will be), Chapman had an OPS+ of 112, which is pretty good but still 7 points less than his career average. He has distributed this slight falling off over 514 PApps, and we're going to charge him with -7 for every last one of them. The 2023 Matt Chapmnan scores -3598, thank you very much.

Does it get worse? Of course it gets worse. Let's sort them by the overall damage.

            Papps Career  2023   Diff    PTS
                   
Springer    534    132    99    -33    -17,622
Kirk    323    123    86    -37    -11,951
Guerrero    544    135    117    -18    - 9,792
Varsho    475    103    83    -20    - 9,500
Espinal    199    102    65    -37    - 7,363
Biggio    224    104    87    -17    - 3,808
Chapman    514    119    112    -7     - 3,598
Merrifield  492    104    105    1    492
Bichette    498    127    129    2    996
Kiermaier   317     98    104    6    1,902
Jansen    280    98    105    7    1,960
Belt    364    123    134    11    4,004
Well, stuff always happens. You can't go into a season hoping everyone has a good year. That almost never happens.
dalimon5 - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#435154) #
John Schneider took Gausman out prematurely against SEA and it backfired. He also left Gurriel Jr in LF defensively which cost him. It was a game he managed which ended up being one of the worst collapses ever. Some things went wrong which were out of his hands but it was the accumulation of those things and the controllable decisions he made that did not work out. I was stunned when they retained him.

Then there's also the fact that Manoah started Game 1 which was debatable considering his age and experience.

As for David Schneider, he shouldn't be on the bench 90% of the time when he's outperforming most on the team.
scottt - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#435155) #
I don't think Schneider can handle third base.

Schneider could DH, but Belt is the biggest bat on the team.
Realistically, they can only sit one of Merrifield, Varsho, Kiermaier or Springer, assuming they want to throw KK or Varsho in right field.

Platoon, defensive replacement, pinch hit once a game.

Magpie - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 08:18 PM EDT (#435156) #
John Schneider took Gausman out prematurely against SEA and it backfired. He also left Gurriel Jr in LF defensively which cost him.

The hook of Gausman was indeed what Schneider was criticized for - definitely not by me, I just didn't like the choice of relievers - but seeing as how Gurriel was on the IL and didn't play against Seattle, I'm not sure what else you're complaining about.

Anyway, they certainly weren't going to fire the manager who had just posted the best winning percentage in team history.
scottt - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 08:26 PM EDT (#435157) #
Last year, Berrios and Kikuchi were struggling. Stripling was good for 5 innings.
The Jays didn't score in game 1, that is not on the manager.
Game 2 had a lot of bad mojo. Someone needs to give Gausman a 4 leaf clover or something.


greenfrog - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 09:10 PM EDT (#435158) #
Note to John Schneider.

The Jays are 7-2 when Davis Schneider is in the lineup.

Something to think about over these next 32 games (and, hopefully, beyond).
SK in NJ - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 09:36 PM EDT (#435159) #
The decision to put Tapia into the game rather than JBJ in Game 2 when they had a big lead and only needed defense at that point was the other decision that Schneider was rightfully criticized for. Tapia wasn’t even a good offensive player so it made no sense in any angle you wanted to look at.

The fact that Game 2 happened and it took Atkins all of 20 seconds to write up a contract extension is very telling about what the Jays look for in a manger.
greenfrog - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 09:45 PM EDT (#435160) #
Tough day for scoreboard-watching, as all of the Jays key rivals in the WC race won or are winning.
John Northey - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 11:15 PM EDT (#435161) #
A reminder for everyone here when it comes to managers. In 1989-after WS game 6 1992 the cries for Cito Gaston to be fired were very loud and common. Even after 2 WS wins those were still there. Fans NEVER are happy with the manager. NEVER. Bobby Cox was complained about for his determination to platoon no matter what (cost him in the '85 playoffs) and for his never changing his methods in the playoffs (thus the single WS title despite 16 times reaching the playoffs. 67-69 W-L record in the playoffs for him. Gaston made the playoffs 5 times, 2 WS wins 18-16 W-L record.

As I recall Cito was hated due to his setting the lineup, then not 'doing anything' until pitching changes were needed and almost never bunting. He also would leave guys on the bench it seemed a lot, and platooned guys like Olerud and Green much longer than needed while being too loyal to guys like Carter.

Schneider's big problems seem to be not seeing a guy is slumping or hot until far too late, then when he reacts they are done the slump or hot streak. See Biggio getting more playing time, and Springer moved out of the leadoff slot for examples. He also is hesitant to mix in kids it seems with Davis Schneider who is outhitting everyone else but has to wait for a LHP to get a shot. Before today, just 18 PA vs RHP but he has hit for a 929 OPS vs them vs 1.382 vs LHP (also 18 PA). Now when starting vs RH starters he has hit 273/385/273 over 13 PA but that isn't much of a sample and still a better OBP than pretty much anyone else on this team.

The big case for slumping but not noticed is Merrifield - in August he has hit just 235/257/337 over 98 PA, I don't think he has missed a single game - time to give him a day off and let Schneider play instead imo. August 7th he didn't start, but came in for defense late. He hasn't been pulled from a game since July 25th (played 8 innings of a 1 run loss for Varsho on defense). June 19th was the last full game he missed. At 34 only Belt is an older hitter on the team so some time off would probably be a good thing.

Btw, looking up how many were older than Merrifield I noticed we have 3 guys at age 24 - Schneider, Vlad, and Kirk (plus IL Danner). I think we all forget Kirk & Vlad are that young sometimes. Bo is next at 25 (as is Horwitz & Manoah). At 26 is is Varsho and a batch of pitchers (Hicks, Pop, Pearson, Cabrera)
Marc Hulet - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 11:40 PM EDT (#435162) #
This game by Davis has to be a wake-up call... Rookies can be valuable contributors. The Dodgers know this, The Orioles know this... A lot of good teams know it. Maybe not everyday but Davis should not not be sitting more than 1-2 days... He has good ABs, hits the ball hard and hustles. Horwitz deserves a fair shot, too.
dalimon5 - Saturday, August 26 2023 @ 11:45 PM EDT (#435163) #
Mags I didn't remember that Gurriel was out and Tapia was in LF. Regardless, my "complaint" still holds/stands regarding poor decisions by the manager.

I agree it's very telling that Atkins resigned Hohn so quickly after the loss. Perhaps this FO is too involved in the day to day.
hypobole - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 12:51 AM EDT (#435164) #
Schneider's big problems seem to be not seeing a guy is slumping or hot until far too late,

He sees it, he just ignores it.
uglyone - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 03:59 AM EDT (#435165) #
Ignoring streaks is a good thing tho.

ISLAND BOY - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 05:24 AM EDT (#435166) #
Not if they're on your underwear.
Mike Green - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 09:08 AM EDT (#435167) #
John Schneider was apparently waiting until the Blue Jays faced a left-handed starter to put Davis Schneider back into the lineup. Davis has yet to show power against a RHP in the major leagues, but does have a .550 OBP and an excellent W/K. In triple A this year, he had severe reverse platoon splits slashing .287/.453/.617 with a positive W/K against RHP.

It's hard to justify his limited use.
hypobole - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 09:12 AM EDT (#435168) #
Davis is pencilled in against Syndergaard today.
Petey Baseball - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 09:14 AM EDT (#435169) #
John, now that you've brought up Cito, I was alive for a lot of those Cito years and the rest I filled in by reading Stephen Brunt's under rated "Diamond Dreams." John Schneider doesn't have a tenth of Cito's experience as a baseball player, nor can he hold a candle to Cito in terms of references and teaching skills, no matter what realm we're talking about. And, to be honest, (and you can look through the game threads during his second stint as manager) I was certainly critical of Cito too.

But I thought Cito's teams overacheived in his second go around. He certainly had a knack for getting strong seasons out of veteran players, and being able to coax more out of them. They may have grumbled with his style at times but guys like Aaron Hill, Lyle Overbay, John Buck, Marco Scutaro all played well.

And...I just find JS pretty boring. His comments to the media seem pre-canned and boilerplate. He gives off a fratboy white dude vibe. Hopefully, the team starts winning and he's around for awhile and he loosens up a bit.

Even Gaston gave off the boilerplate, boring vibe, but the guy was roomates with Hank Aaron.....so enough said.
mathesond - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 09:18 AM EDT (#435170) #
You're hoping a fratboy loosens up? Is that wise?
Leaside Cowboy - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 09:25 AM EDT (#435172) #
Stephen Brunt's under rated "Diamond Dreams."

The greatest book ever written.

Cito benched Olerud for Molitor in the WS.

hypobole - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 09:31 AM EDT (#435173) #
Seems the concerns about Ryu FB velocity drop during his rehab were way overblown. The pitch that's seen the biggest drop this year is his 2 seamer. It's also been his most effective pitch so far. Ryu, who relies on a 5 pitch mix, command far outweighs velocity. He was striking out guys with a 66 mph curveball yesterday.
hypobole - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 09:51 AM EDT (#435174) #
I thought Davis Schneider would be cromulent defensively. Nigel thought he would less than that. He's actually looked good. Glad to be wrong so far.
hypobole - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 12:23 PM EDT (#435181) #
So I checked. There are only 5 players at any position rated as plus defenders by both DRS and OAA. KK and Varsho in CF, Chapman at 3rd, Springer in RF and Schneider at 2B.
Magpie - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#435183) #
Seems the concerns about Ryu FB velocity drop during his rehab were way overblown.

Yeah, it's a little like worrying about his handwriting. It's never had much to do with how he gets hitters out.
Magpie - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 01:21 PM EDT (#435184) #
Ignoring streaks is a good thing tho.

It's a really difficult thing to figure out, for the usual reason - there is no right answer. I know that all managers make decisions that don't work, lots and lots and lots of them. That's the job. They also make plenty of decisions I disagree with, and it's strange how those are always the ones I remember. Maybe that happens to you as well...

The most significant thing that has happened to the Blue Jays offense this season, even more significant than Guerrero's performance, is the sudden decline of George Springer. (From the same starting point, he's fallen off roughly twice as much as Guerrero.) This was a problem right out of the gate, but Schneider was able to ignore it for the first month. Why not? The team was winning. And Springer then proceeded to play pretty well for a couple of months. When he slumped again in July, he was taken out of the leadoff spot and hasn't been back. This was probably because Merrifield was playing well, and maybe just to shake things up. Was this the right way to proceed? Who the hell knows, without access to some parallel universe where some other course was chosen.

Schneider's certainly not a compulsive juggler of the lineup, like Joe Torre or (lord save us) Jimy Williams. But he's not committed to playing the same lineup every day and he does tinker a bit - Chapman, Belt, Merrifield, Varsho have all wandered through various batting order spots.
Petey Baseball - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#435185) #
"Who the heck knows?"

Well I'm sure George Springer has hit the most leadoff home runs in the history of baseball. Two bad months does not warrant pulling him out of that spot. Sorry.
Petey Baseball - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 01:43 PM EDT (#435186) #
I'm not saying he's a compulsive juggler of the lineup at all. I even gave him the benefit of the doubt in saying he moved Bichette down last year and eventually moved him back once he finally heated up. What I am saying is that Schneider doesn't yet have a knack for when to pull those levers, and the Springer demotion is a prime example.
92-93 - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 01:43 PM EDT (#435187) #
Guardians radio just called Schneider a neophyte in left field.

Schneider has looked solid converting all the chances he has received thus far in the majors, but there hasn't really been any difficult plays. Maybe one shallow grounder at 2B.
mathesond - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#435188) #
"Well I'm sure George Springer has hit the most leadoff home runs in the history of baseball"

Rickey Henderson says Rickey has entered the chat.
Magpie - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#435189) #
I'm not saying he's a compulsive juggler of the lineup at all.

Oh, I didn't think you were. That's the one extreme - the other extreme would be the Toronto version of Bobby Cox, whose lineups - and often the batting orders - may have been carved in stone.

And you can win either way, and at most points in between.
James W - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 01:56 PM EDT (#435190) #
Second-most. Rickey Henderson is first by a wide margin.
Chuck - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 02:09 PM EDT (#435191) #
And you can win either way, and at most points in between.

Yeah, the success Kevin Cash has with his daily, variable lineups should at least give one pause when the instinct is to vehemently argue that players need to have consistent homes in the lineup to excel. Whether his teams would perform as well, better or worse with more predictable batting orders is, of course, unknowable.

mathesond - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#435192) #
Is it just me, or is the home plate umpire missing a pretty good game?
Chuck - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 02:15 PM EDT (#435193) #
And with the best seat in the house!
Chuck - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#435194) #
Bad umpires usually call balls strikes. This dude does the opposite. And it’s not like he’s missing pitches on the edges of the strike zone.
Leaside Cowboy - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 02:57 PM EDT (#435195) #
Umpires: HP: Shane Livensparger. 1B: Charlie Ramos. 2B: Junior Valentine. 3B: Adrian Johnson.
Chuck - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#435196) #
Livensparger is so versatile that he can make bad calls all over the diamond.
uglyone - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 03:02 PM EDT (#435197) #
I would argue that Cash likely doesnt ride streaks at all. He's probably extremely consistent with his usage. It's just that the rays are very disciplined with consistently exploiting platoon and pitch type splits and all the players know exactly how they will be used and when.
92-93 - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 03:14 PM EDT (#435198) #
Guardians radio is shocked Thor has only given up 2 hits thus far. "It almost feels like they're going up there trying to hit one into the second deck," resulting in all of these fly balls.
Magpie - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 03:14 PM EDT (#435199) #
It's a start. Jays are now 1-14 on their Balls In Play.
uglyone - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#435200) #
I was gonna make a real angry post about Schneider not giving the green light to Schneider on that 3-0 pitch.

Thankfully the kid is good enough to salvage the 3-1 pitch.
92-93 - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 03:18 PM EDT (#435201) #
"How about this kid...5 HRs in his first 11 major league games. Have a feeling you're going to see him pencilled into the lineup every day going forward....and you're talking about a kid who has literally come out of nowhere...Wow!"
Magpie - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#435202) #
What's really impressive to me is just last week Schneider went 0 for Cleveland and they were getting him out with high fastballs, just like the one he hit into the bullpen.
uglyone - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#435203) #
Helps when the fastball is 92!
uglyone - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#435204) #
If Bo is banged up at least it might give Clement a chance to usurp Espinal.
hypobole - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 03:53 PM EDT (#435205) #
Helps when the fastball is 92!

Didn't seem to help Vlad. Swung right through the one he got.
Marc Hulet - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#435206) #
Possibly coincidence but Tanner Morris was removed from the AAA game... Not on the 40-man but has been playing mostly 3B and 2B.
uglyone - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#435207) #
Manager searched real hard and finally found a reliever to struggle. A guy who pitched last night too.
Magpie - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#435208) #
Also a guy who hadn't given up a run against an AL team all season.
92-93 - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#435210) #
Not sure I like PRing for Schneider so quickly.
Magpie - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#435211) #
Not sure I like PRing for Schneider so quickly.

Well, if his spot in the order comes up before extra innings, things are probably going well.
lexomatic - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#435213) #
I can't tell from boxscore who got hurt... Chapman?
Magpie - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#435214) #
I can't tell from boxscore who got hurt... Chapman?

Bichette, tightness in his right quad. Chapman, inflamed middle finger (same one as before.)

Romano threw more pitches in a game than this exactly once, back in June 2019.
uglyone - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 04:30 PM EDT (#435215) #
That's a beauty pitch by Yimi to get that K. Nice.
92-93 - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#435216) #
Garcia is pitching for the 3rd time in 4 days so it would be nice to win this right here in the 9th.
Chuck - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#435217) #
I wonder if Espinal really had the green light or if he decided on his own to swing at ball four.
99BlueJaysWay - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#435218) #
6 straight K for Garcia, no?
uglyone - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#435219) #
Great stuff yimi.

Now we just need one damn single from the heart of our order. Don't screw this up please.
uglyone - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 04:52 PM EDT (#435220) #
And the pinch run might end up being killer after all. Dang it.
uglyone - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#435221) #
Why did they pitch to him. Frick. Another awful series loss coming up.
uglyone - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#435223) #
lexomatic - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#435224) #
And Biggio should have walked, but blown called strike leads to strikeout.
99BlueJaysWay - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#435225) #
Seems like the ump decided he wanted to leave in the bottom of the 11th. There were at least 3 pitches called strikes that were balls. 2 to Biggio alone
James W - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#435226) #
It's the "human element" of... aw, screw it. Robot umps now!
lexomatic - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#435228) #
I only saw the one blown call to Biggio. But am relying on GameDay graphics so maybe looked different elsewhere. Pitch No 4, bottom inside corner. I thought the final called strike was one was a) too close to take b) a really tough strike.

Didn't look at the last few ABs before that because my internet got screwy.
Chuck - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 05:31 PM EDT (#435229) #
Per the broadcast, the last pitch to Biggio did indeed catch the edge of the strike zone. I think the frustration came from the delayed strike call (and, of course, much of the previous three and a half hours).
BlueJayWay - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#435230) #
When you score 7 runs against a team like Cleveland, you really should win.
hypobole - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 06:14 PM EDT (#435235) #
Morris has the 2nd highest LD% of the 90 qualified in the IL. He has the 4th lowest SwStr% of those 90. Plus he sprays the ball around. His hit tool is legit, even if no other part of his profile is.
christaylor - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 06:14 PM EDT (#435236) #
There was a graphic in today's game showing three prospects excelling at AAA and AA. I thought, "Just let Chapman, Merrifield, and Ryu walk. Play these kids and hope for something from Manoah or Tiedmann. Give Davis a full season. Trade Biggio if the value is there."

I have had so little fun watching this team that I want to punt on 2024 and watch kids for a season. The team has more talent than 19, 20, 21, 22 and yet they have been consistently disappointing to watch. A new manager and pitching coach too please. Bring the fun back that was lost somewhere along the way.
Magpie - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#435237) #
Noah Syndergaard Designated For Assignment. See what happens when you give up five runs to the Blue Jays?
greenfrog - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#435238) #
Why a new pitching coach? The Jays have had among the best (and healthiest) pitching in MLB.
Kasi - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#435239) #
I’m not against firing the manager and hitting coach and Atkins. The latter because he’s just an average guy and we could do better and the former because it’s clear this team as a whole has let their struggles get into their head giving the huge difference between hitting with risp and in high leverage vs not. It’s been a problem all year.

Also they just have to do better at showing faith in their young talent. I mean I’m glad they picked up KK and Belt for cheap and that they’ve worked but they need some young cheap talent and players like Schneider and others aren’t that much off from these 15-30 million FAs the FO have brought in. So be better developing and show some faith in young talent and good things will come.

As a plus this season has kinda shown us that it’s not just the next two years as a window. Vlad is easily replaceable and they can throw a bunch of money at Bo and let others walk and things till be fine. Pitching looks like it will continue being solid.
SK in NJ - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 07:51 PM EDT (#435241) #
I wouldn't be against replacing Atkins, he's closer to average than he is great, so you can definitely upgrade there, but I don't think he did a bad job this past winter. The pitching and defense has been excellent. Belt and Kiermaier were good pickups. It's just that for whatever reason about half of the position player group grossly underachieved. With Springer maybe it's age, but the others (Vlad, Varsho, Kirk) it is inexcusable. Chapman is more or less what he was last season, so while we all expected better, this might be what he is.

Something is not right with the coaching on this team. I'm not sure what it is. Young players regressing, veteran players (Springer, Chapman) no longer pulling the ball for some reason. I'm not sure where to even start there, but someone has to be held accountable. That likely cost the Jays a playoff berth in 2023. I've said since last season that John Schneider is not a big league manager, and nothing he's done in the playoffs last season or this season has changed my view, so replacing him would be a no brainer. I just don't know if Atkins would do it.
christaylor - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#435242) #
Typo -- I meant hitting.
John Northey - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 09:19 PM EDT (#435243) #
If you let Schneider (manager) go then who do you bring in?

Doing a quick google I see Brad Ausmus (4 years with Tigers, cracked 500 twice, 1 with LAA), John Farrell (did poor here, but a WS title and 90+ wins 3 out of 5 years in Boston), Fredi Gonzalez (10 years managing Marlins & Braves with just 2 playoff appearances), John Gibbons (we know him), Mike Scioscia (1 WS title LAA, 19 years running that team 'just' 64, younger than I expected) as recent managers without jobs who might be interested in doing it again. FYI: Cito turns 80 next year so I doubt he'd be interested :)

If the Jays had to go with a vet I'd lean towards Scioscia - he was the only guy to win a WS in Anaheim, and his last year the team was 80-82 as he was the first ML manager for Ohtani - by far the best record that team has had since them. He retired feeling he was done at the time, but after a few years away he might have the itch again. Funny thing is the guy with the best potential seems to be Farrell imo - yeah, I hated him here too, but he did do a good job in Boston with a good team. But if the Jays decide they need an old school manager I'd go with Scioscia for sure. Unless 80 year old Davey Johnson wants to come out of retirement :)
uglyone - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 09:36 PM EDT (#435244) #
85bluejay - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 09:46 PM EDT (#435245) #
This is going to be unpopular but I expect Aaron Boone will be available and I'd take a hard look at him.
christaylor - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 10:15 PM EDT (#435246) #
Mattingly as the figurehead for a year and a baseball ops friendly manager as the silent understudy for a year, perhaps? Those changes might make a one year play the kids retool an easier sell.
Petey Baseball - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 10:27 PM EDT (#435247) #
I agree, I think Boone has done a good job in New York, actually. There's been a couple years they've overachieved with him as the skipper. They even overachieved this season before it all went south after the Judge injury. He will walk the plank after the season, but I believe he's earned another shot for sure. There's no way he'd end up the Jays.

Mike Sciocia is interesting. He managed some star power in LA, including Vlad Sr. He certainly racked up the playoff appearances the first decade of his career when he had the talent. He even managed the only Mike Trout postseason appearance.

John Gibbons returning for a third time would make everyone non-linear, but I doubt Atkins and Shapiro would hire back a guy they fired and whom they inherited in the first place.

Wouldn't it be hilariously Blue Jays if Farrell came back...The third manager to get re-hired after multiple years away. I'd say there's a non-zero chance since he's tied to Shapiro and Atkins from their stint in Cleveland.

I'd hire DeMarlo Hale before any of those three, but that would be this regime's third straight rookie manager hire...even though DeMarlo's been major league since forever.

This really stinks we're talking about this yet again, but it's what happens when a team is really under the gun.

I guess we have the Springer and Guererro quasi-resurgence and Davis Schneider to dream on for the next series? We're running out of rope here.
Chuck - Sunday, August 27 2023 @ 11:52 PM EDT (#435248) #
Mattingly as the figurehead for a year

Could be a job opening up in New York this off-season and he still might have his old hat. Of course he'd need to do something about those sideburns.

Leaside Cowboy - Monday, August 28 2023 @ 08:12 AM EDT (#435249) #
The Maple Leafs dropped $50 M for Mike Babcock. Why not purchase Kevin Cash's contract?
dalimon5 - Monday, August 28 2023 @ 08:22 AM EDT (#435250) #
You guys forgot to mention Joe Maddon. I'd take him or Sciosia.

It would also be a good thing if this team's best player was also its leader.
Leaside Cowboy - Monday, August 28 2023 @ 08:33 AM EDT (#435251) #
John Gibbons (manager emeritus) could be featured on a new Batter's Box banner. Else, perhaps a screen-shot of the " Batter's Box " advertisement that has recently appeared on the back-stop at Rogers Centre.
zeppelinkm - Monday, August 28 2023 @ 09:46 AM EDT (#435252) #
For all the conversation about Vlad and what to make of it this year. I really think it boils down to this:

"PITTSBURGH -- Vladimir Guerrero Jr. was a late scratch from the Blue Jays' lineup Saturday at PNC Park, as the star first baseman is dealing with left wrist discomfort.May 6, 2023"

His OPS at that time was .920 with a triple slash line of .318/.389/.530

His slash line since returning to now is: .250/.326/.408 for a .734 OPS.

hypobole - Monday, August 28 2023 @ 11:04 AM EDT (#435253) #
soupman has brought that up at least 4 times now. Also brought up in the article Gerry posted a while back. It may be part of his issues, but not all.
vw_fan17 - Monday, August 28 2023 @ 11:06 AM EDT (#435254) #
"PITTSBURGH -- Vladimir Guerrero Jr. was a late scratch from the Blue Jays' lineup Saturday at PNC Park, as the star first baseman is dealing with left wrist discomfort.May 6, 2023"
How did he win the home run derby on a bad wrist? And why would he go?
dalimon5 - Monday, August 28 2023 @ 12:05 PM EDT (#435256) #
Also, career numbers outside of minor league parks.

Also, base running, fielding and Intangibles.
zeppelinkm - Monday, August 28 2023 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#435257) #
I think hitting BP pitching is a lot different then real live game pitching. But it's a fair question.

I've always been a firm believer that when players grossly underperform, unless they're on the wrong side of the aging curve then its often body related. It just seems so strange that Vladdy for all his elite underlying metrics is batting .250 with a light slg% for essentially 4 months now. And it just so conveniently correlates with wrist issue.
scottt - Monday, August 28 2023 @ 12:34 PM EDT (#435260) #
I don't like pinch running for Schneider to tie the game.
I think it's OK to take the lead and bring in the defensive replacement.

If they don't do that, KK can pinch run for Jansen in the 9th.

Also, I hate following a lefty starter with a lefty reliever. What's up with that?
Why couldn't Garcia pitch the 7th and Hicks the 8th and have the lefty ready to come in and finish the innings if they bring lefty pinch hitters?

Cabrera got 2 outs, Hicks got 1, Mayza got 0 and they had to use Jackson in the 10th.

Also, I was expecting Green to be up not Jackson after giving up 2 HRs.

Finally, I hope they're not leaving Chapman and Bichette day-to-day on the bench with Biggio starting at third and Espinal at short with basically no bench to make moves. They need to put one guy on the IL and bring somebody up.

uglyone - Monday, August 28 2023 @ 12:37 PM EDT (#435261) #
there were so many questionable over-managing decisions that you forget the ones you were mad about at the time. bunts and pinch runs and unnecessarily pitching to good hitters and one-batter relievers and on and on.

92-93 - Monday, August 28 2023 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#435265) #
Indeed, yesterday was truly a masterclass in over-managing a baseball game.
Magpie - Monday, August 28 2023 @ 01:57 PM EDT (#435269) #
There were two decisions that caught my attention in the moment. The first was when he took out Cabrera and brought in Hicks to pitch to Ramirez. The intention, obviously, was to turn Ramirez around and make him hit left-handed. Except that in 2023, Ramirez has hit .311/.393/.519 left-handed and just .219/.273/.432 right-handed. Say what?

Well, platoon splits over a single season, especially against LHP, need to be taken with a grain of salt. Small sample size considerations apply, and over his career - which is probably more relevant - Ranirez has very little platoon split whatsoever. And while LH pitchers may be giving Ramirez some troubles in 2023, Blue Jays left-handers don't seem to be part of that group - Ramirez had homered against Kikuchi earlier in the game, and against Ryu the day before. It is a common failing of baseball managers that they often choose to believe their own lying eyes.

But what I immediately thought of was last year's game against Seattle, when Schneider did the exact same thing and for the exact same reason - he turned a switch-hitter around, to his better side - and once again it was because of what that hitter had been doing to his pitchers. Carlos Santana hit three homers in a single series against the Jays last summer, each of them batting left-handed. In his previous at bat against Gausman he'd crushed a ball some 400 feet and missed a home run by inches. Schneider believed his own lying eyes on that occasion and got burned. Just as he did yesterday.

The other moment, of course, was Biggio's attempted bunt. My first thought - have I ever seen Biggio bunt? Not that I could remember. Is it a genuine, operative part of his skillset? And then - who's on second? A catcher? Jansen runs well for a catcher, but he's still a catcher and it's late August. He definitely isn't running as well as he was in March or April. Well, suppose Biggio gets a good bunt down. Suppose Jansen gets to third with one out. Then who's up? Espinal? Is he likely to hit a ball far enough to score the catcher from third base? Well, he did on Friday. Either he can do it again, or that was his one well-hit ball for the month....
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