Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
It's so relieving 
To know that you're leaving 
As soon as you get paid

Everyone ready to stay up late?


The Mariners won 90 games a year ago, and got to play post-season baseball. As you may recall. It's going to difficult for them to do either of those things this season. They've taken a step backward on both sides of the ball, and I would expect they're most surprised by the fact that they have a below average offense. Especially if they had known that Jarred Kelenic, who we've been hearing about for years, would finally establish himself as a major league player. Which he certainly has. It's a little surprising is that Kelenic has been better than  our old chum Teoscar Hernandez; it's positively shocking that he's been better than the handsome young Face of the Franchise, last year's Rookie of the Year, Julio Rodriguez. Three other players who were quite good in 2022 have backslid considerably this season - catcher Cal Raleigh and corner infielders Ty France and Eugenio Suarez.

 Kelenic and shortstop J.P. Crawford are really the only bits of good news. Or at least they were - Kelenic broke his foot the other day kicking a cooler in the dugout.

This is why you need to be on an even keel, kids. Don't get too worked up about it all. Not too high when you succeed, not too low when you don't. Especially when you don't.

Run prevention hasn't been as good last season either, and this was the 2022 team's real strength (fourth best in the AL.) And this is despite having the services of Luis Castillo all season. Castillo has been just fine, as have Logan Gilbert and George Kirby - it's the other two rotation spots that have caused problems. Robbie Ray was lost for the season after making just one start, Marco Gonzales is out with a flexor strain, and Chris Flexen was so awful they had to DFA him. Bryce Miller may be the solution to one of those problems, we'll see about Bryan Woo.

And of course they traded away the man who was their best relief pitcher a year ago, in exchange for an outfielder one year away from free agency. Very much a win-this-year type of move.

So things could be going better for the only major league team that has never been in a World Series. 

The Mariners were in town for three games at the end of April.

The Story So Far

Fri 28 April: Seattle 2 Toronto 3 - Luis Castillo and Alek Manoah locked up in a tight game - Seattle scored a single run in the second and third innings, and the Blue Jays answered with one of their own in the bottom half both times. The game was turned over to the bullpens, and the Jays managed one more run on Springer's two out single. Four Jays relievers - Mayza, Garcia, Swanson, Romano - each retired all three men they faced, each striking out two.

Sat 29 April: Seattle 0 Toronto 1 - Kevin Gausman was awesome, scattering six singles over seven shutout innings while striking out 13. Easton McGee, making his first major league start, was even better for the Mariners. McGee took a one-hitter into the seventh before turning the scoreless game over to the bullpen.. This one went to extras - former Mariner Erik Swanson stranded the Zombie Runner by striking out Wong, Murphy, and Pollock. In the Toronto half, Guerrero singled the Zombie Runner to third, Chapman was intentionally walked, and Varsho's single plated the winner.  As for young McGee, he went on the IL after this start with a "strained forerarm" - he would end up having Tommy John surgery in late May.

Sun 30 April: Seattle 10 Toronto 8 - This was a wild one. With two out in the top of the first, Bassitt walked Kelenic and Raleigh and hit Hernandez with a pitch, each time on a full count. Trammell then cashed everyone with a grand slam. The Jays got two of those runs back in their half as Chapman doubled in Bichette and Guerrero, and they took the lead an inning later on Bichette's three run homer. They stretched the lead to 8-4, and turned the game over to the bullpen. A solo homer by Hernandez off Richards made it 8-5 in the sixth; in the seventh, Kelenic reached on an Espinal error and scored on Raleigh's homer off Bass. They tied it in the ninth against Garcia on a walk, a groundout, and Crawford's RBI single. On to extras once again, and Raleigh's second homer of the day, this one off Pop, cashed the Zombie Runner and gave us our final score.

We've all done bit of complaining about how the Blue Jays have been hitting, or not hitting, with runners in scoring position, in clutch situations - and why wouldn't we. It's a frustrating thing. But I am here to help. Because if we're going to complain - and we are going to complain - surely we should focus our unhappiness in the proper direction. There are Blue Jays who are not delivering the goods. We need to know who they are.

You know there are Data Tables coming! How has this year's group done with Runners In Scoring Position?

           Split     G    PA    AB    R     H   2B   3B   HR   RBI   SB   CS   BB   SO  GDP   BAVG    OBP    SLG    OPS
                                                                           
Bichette    RISP    63    85    82    32   27    3    1    4    37    0    1    3   13    1   .329   .353   .537    .890
Guerrero    RISP    70   106    91    30   28    5    0    3    44    2    1    7   20    2   .308   .368   .462    .829
Merrifield  RISP    65   101    91    32   27    8    0    3    38   12    4    7   17    3   .297   .337   .484    .820
Jansen    RISP    38    60    57    17   15    5    0    3    26    0    0    3   13    3   .263   .300   .509    .809
Biggio    RISP    30    44    40    17    8    2    0    3    14    1    0    4   16    0   .200   .273   .475    .748
Chapman    RISP    72   115    97    40   22    5    0    2    26    1    1   15   33    2   .227   .330   .340    .671
Kirk    RISP    48    69    60    12   14    2    0    1    20    0    0    8   12    1   .233   .319   .317    .636
Springer    RISP    67    94    81    36   20    0    0    1    24    5    0   11   11    6   .247   .340   .284    .624
Kiermaier   RISP    45    65    55    31   10    2    2    1    17    6    0    6   16    3   .182   .266   .346    .611
Varsho    RISP    70   104    88    23   15    3    0    2    19    7    0   10   29    1   .171   .269   .273    .542
Espinal    RISP    32    42    37    15    7    1    0    0    10    1    0    3    7    3   .189   .268   .216    .485
Belt    RISP    45    62    54    18    9    2    0    0    12    0    0    7   31    1   .167   .258   .204    .462

OK, Guerrero, Bichette, and Merrifield have been just fine. Danny Jansen, too. Pretty much everyone else fits on a spectrum ranging from mediocre to downright terrible.

Well, how about with Runners in Scoring Position and two outs? Those moments when making an out is never a viable option.

                    Split    G   PA   AB   R   H   2B  3B  HR  RBI   SB   CS   BB   SO  GDP   BAVG    OBP    SLG    OPS
                                                                           
Guerrero    2 outs, RISP   35   37   34  13   14   4   0   2   23    1    1    2    6    0   .412   .460   .706   1.165
Bichette    2 outs, RISP   34   37   35  17   12   2   0   4   19    0    0    2    4    0   .343   .378   .743   1.121
Jansen    2 outs, RISP   19   23   22   9    7   2   0   1    9    0    0    1    3    0   .318   .348   .546    .893
Merrifield   2 outs, RISP   39   46   40  13   11   4   0   1   15    5    0    6    8    0   .275   .370   .450    .820
Kiermaier    2 outs, RISP   23   31   26  12    5   0   1   1    9    1    0    4    8    0   .192   .323   .385    .707
Biggio    2 outs, RISP   22   27   25   7    4   1   0   2    8    1    0    2   12    0   .160   .222   .440    .662
Chapman    2 outs, RISP   38   45   37  18    7   1   0   1    7    0    1    7   13    0   .189   .333   .297    .631
Belt    2 outs, RISP   25   32   28   9    6   2   0   0    7    0    0    4   14    0   .214   .313   .286    .598
Springer    2 outs, RISP   31   41   35  12    6   0   0   1    7    1    0    6    4    0   .171   .293   .257    .550
Kirk    2 outs, RISP   30   34   32   5    7   2   0   0    7    0    0    2    6    0   .219   .265   .281    .546
Varsho    2 outs, RISP   44   52   44   6    6   2   0   1    7    5    0    7   14    0   .136   .269   .250    .519
Espinal    2 outs, RISP   16   21   19   8    3   1   0   0    5    1    0    1    3    0   .158   .238   .211    .449

 I don't know if one could describe the work of Guerrero and Bichette in this situation as "elite."  Semantics is not my department today. I will confidently describe their work in these situations as freaking awesome and note that Danny Jansen has also raised his game considerably. (Incidentally, for a split second there, I was genuinely impressed that no one had hit into a double play in that situation. Only for a split second, and luckily I didn't mention it or speak it aloud.)

Fine, fine. How about Late & Close in general (defined as 7th inning or later, with the batting team either tied, ahead by one or has the the tying run at least on deck)

                    Split     G    PA   AB   R    H  2B  3B   HR  RBI   SB   CS   BB   SO   GDP  BAVG    OBP    SLG    OPS
                                                                           
Guerrero    Late & Close   55    67   61   10  21   6   0    3   13    0    1    2    9    0   .344   .358   .590   .948
Belt    Late & Close   30    34   31    1  10   4   0    1    4    0    0    3   11    2   .323   .382   .548   .931
Bichette    Late & Close   56    69   67    7  19   2   0    3   10    1    1    1   16    0   .284   .304   .448   .752
Jansen    Late & Close   29    41   38    4   8   1   0    3   12    0    0    2    6    0   .211   .268   .474   .742
Springer    Late & Close   48    63   55    7  15   2   0    0    7    2    1    7   15    2   .273   .365   .309   .674
Chapman    Late & Close   45    55   47    8  10   4   0    1    7    0    1    6   18    1   .213   .309   .362   .671
Merrifield    Late & Close   43    58   51    7  14   2   0    0    5    2    0    6    9    0   .275   .345   .314   .659
Kkiermaier    Late & Close   37    46   38   10   9   2   0    0    1    5    0    7   10    1   .237   .356   .290   .645
Espinal    Late & Close   21    25   24    4   6   1   0    0    0    1    0    0    5    1   .250   .280   .292   .572
Varsho    Late & Close   39    49   44    4   8   2   0    1    3    3    0    4   13    0   .182   .265   .296   .561
Biggio    Late & Close   22    26   22    8   2   1   0    1    4    0    2    4    9    0   .091   .231   .273   .504
Kirk    Late & Close   37    45   41    4   6   0   0    0    3    0    0    3    8    0   .146   .200   .146   .346

Much the same pattern as the other situation splits - Guerrero has been really good, and Jansen raises his game as well. Brandon Belt, who's been pretty awful with Runners in Scoring Position perks up smartly when it's Late and Close. Belt hasn't been much good at finishing the trouble but he's been pretty good at getting it started. He's only scored one run for his efforts, but that's because someone - usually Biggio - runs for him after he gets on base late in a game. (And that's how Biggio has scored eight times in this split, despite almost never getting on base himself.)

I hope this helps you direct your disapproval appropriately.

The Blue Jays are off to Los Angeles after this, where the Dodgers await, and of the 29 other teams in the majors, none of them have been harder for the Jays to defeat than the Dodgers. It would be prudent to get something done this weekend.

Matchups

Fri 21 July - Kikuchi (7-3, 4.13) vs Miller (6-3, 3.66)
Sat 22 July - Gausman (7-5, 3.03) vs Gilbert (8-5, 3.65)
Sun 23 July - Manoah (2-8, 6.18) vs Woo (1-2, 4.74)
Toronto at Seattle, July 21-23 | 222 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
uglyone - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 01:14 PM EDT (#432183) #
thumbs up on the Genesis add. fantastic arm, with horrendous results so far. some makeup and personality questions too. but did i mention the arm. and he has options.

It's like adding a LH Merryweather, but with even better stuff, and 6 years younger.
hypobole - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 01:14 PM EDT (#432184) #
Kelenic broke his foot the other day kicking a cooler in the dugout.

This is why you use a baseball bat, kids.
Ducey - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#432185) #
So who gets DFA'd to add the new guy? White? Lukes? Hatch? Heineman? Clement? Lopez? Manoah :) ?
scottt - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#432186) #
Hagen Danner? Thomas Hatch? White?

"And God said, Let there be light, and there was light."

hypobole - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 01:42 PM EDT (#432187) #
If not White, Thornton /Hatch seem most likely. So it will probably be Horwittz.
scottt - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#432188) #
Genesis will be out of options at the end the year, so it's not a major thing.

Same with Hatch, Lopez and Thornton.
Lopez can hit. Would be wise to trade the other 2 guys before too long. 
scottt - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 01:56 PM EDT (#432189) #
About the runners in scoring position: KK hits 9th. Springer hits first.
Those aren't RBIs spots. Chapman and Belt have been up and down.
In hindsight, those guys should have been moved down the lineup during slumps.

hypobole - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 02:07 PM EDT (#432190) #
It's Thornton.
Leaside Cowboy - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 02:10 PM EDT (#432191) #
hopefully Genesis is a Revelation.
uglyone - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 02:28 PM EDT (#432193) #
no f'n way they actually DFA'd thornton.
bpoz - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#432194) #
I like the trade for G Cabrera. I have not been too high on Thornton for the last few years.
hypobole - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#432195) #
So Thornton ends up a) traded, b) claimed, c) outrighted, d) elects free agency or e) released?  He's only making $1 million, although that might even be too much for some teams for what Thornton provides. But who knows? I'll go with b).
hypobole - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#432196) #
Chad Green begins rehab assignment tomorrow per Shi.
scottt - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#432197) #
I figured Thornton has some value and could have been part of a package in an other trade.
I would expect him to be pitching in MLB with a new team.

Marc Hulet - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#432199) #
Atkins does not have a great track record when trying to get an asset back on DFA'd players.
greenfrog - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#432200) #
The Yankees continue to get crushed by injuries. Jose Trevino is out for the rest of the season with a wrist injury.
uglyone - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#432201) #
that one shocker half season Thornton had was 4 years ago.
scottt - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#432202) #
If 29 starts is half a season.

The conversion to a reliever was never a great idea.
He walks too many out of the pen.
I don't know if he's fit enough to be a starter.

bpoz - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 06:08 PM EDT (#432204) #
OK I accept that we lost a good player in Thornton. I don't think Atkins realized how valuable Thornton was. Maybe Thornton was injured so Atkins let him go for nothing.
hypobole - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#432206) #
bpoz, Jays haven't lost him yet. I listed all the possibilities earlier.
scottt - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 07:24 PM EDT (#432209) #
When the roster expends in September, an extra lefty could be useful.
I'm tempted to pencil in Green and Ryu and consider it done.

Blair and Barker are talking about Pearson for Bellinger.

Magpie - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#432210) #
that one shocker half season Thornton had was 4 years ago.

Yes, he looked like a serviceable back of the rotation guy - an ERA+ of 94 in 29 starts, 154 IP, for a lousy team isn't the work of someone useless. But he's worked in relief ever since, and he was exactly the same - the same kind of pitcher, and the same general quality. And while that can be useful at the back of the rotation, it's no use at all out of the bullpen.

I wrote this about him after 2019:

it seems to me that there's no glaring weakness in his game. Consequently, there's no obvious thing that he needs to work on, like getting the bases on balls under control or finding a way to keep the home runs from flying out of the park. It's more as if Thornton needs to make incremental improvements right across the board, which may be a more difficult proposition.

No glaring weakness, and also no real strength to build on either. No one elite pitch (like Richards changeup, for example) that could serve as the foundation of his work in a relief role.
Leaside Cowboy - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 07:36 PM EDT (#432211) #
John McDonald:

July 22, 2005: Sent to the Detroit Tigers by the Toronto Blue Jays as part of a conditional deal.
November 10, 2005: Purchased by the Toronto Blue Jays from the Detroit Tigers.

The end result had the player effectively "loaned" for a period of time.
Could it be done with someone like Verlander? (Unless the idea is too unconventional.)
greenfrog - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#432214) #
A win tonight would bring the Jays to within 4.5 games of first place in the division (and first in the WC race—the O’s and Rays are now tied).
christaylor - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 09:36 PM EDT (#432215) #
I've thought about this in passing before. There has to be a rule otherwise non-contending teams would ship out 1/3rd of big contracts each year and then have the player returned. Maybe it is enough of a disincentive that a team is not obligated to return the player. Could just be a norm and not an official rule.

That said, if I've learned anything from becoming an American during the Trump year it's that norms and decorum are important to prevent dysfunction and promote trust. Perhaps those in Ottawa and Windsor learned this lesson too.
Leaside Cowboy - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 10:10 PM EDT (#432216) #
Pat Gillick once attempted to sign a Cuban player (non-defector) who would have been limited to home games in Canada, but the Commissioner's office put a stop to it.
christaylor - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 10:14 PM EDT (#432217) #
Can we talk about the TD patch? The colour is awful and clashes with every Jays uniform variant but especially the Baby Blues. TD could at least assent to monochrome or go with the Jays color scheme.
Chuck - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 10:22 PM EDT (#432218) #
TD could at least assent to monochrome or go with the Jays color scheme.

That uproarious laughter you are hearing is the collective sound of every corporate branding department.

christaylor - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 10:46 PM EDT (#432219) #
...and their laughter belies their misunderstanding of aesthetics and human psychology. A aesthetically pleasing color logo would a) promote good feelings as their associated with the pleasure b) the more cognitive processing someone has to do on a stimulus will make it more memorable.

At any rate, I'm not the target market I haven't had a Jays jersey since I became a teenager. TD bank can make the Jays uniforms as ugly as they like as long as the money goes to team payroll. Why not put it on the front instead of "Blue Jays"
Chuck - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 11:04 PM EDT (#432220) #
Why not put it on the front instead of "Blue Jays"

I'm sure it's not for lack of trying. Give it a couple of years. The NASCAR whorification process is well under way.

Speaking of which, I was wondering if Jesse Pinkman was considering a same game PAR-lay. Yes, yes he is.

Leaside Cowboy - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 11:15 PM EDT (#432221) #
Side-bar:

5 pitchers to date have been suspended for sticky stuff:

2023 - Drew Smith - Max Scherzer - Domingo Germán
2021 - Héctor Santiago - Caleb Smith

2 of the 5 incidents (Scherzer / Santiago) occurred during a day game.

1 case (Smith) occurred inside a domed stadium.

Curious whether sunscreen was a factor.
Marc Hulet - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#432222) #
The TD green is critical to the company's identity... Just like blue is to the Jays but then I'm also a TD corporate employee...
uglyone - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 11:29 PM EDT (#432223) #
". I don't think Atkins realized how valuable Thornton was. "

You just melted my medulla oblongata.
Nigel - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 11:32 PM EDT (#432224) #
I know the M’s are an awful offensive club but, full credit to Kikutchi, this might be the best I’ve seen him in a Jays uniform.
christaylor - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 11:34 PM EDT (#432225) #
Fair enough. It is ugly and out of place and while I still bank with TD "America's most convenient bank" the logo make me want to move everything over to Chase. That logo would look good on Jays uniforms.
uglyone - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 11:35 PM EDT (#432226) #
"he's worked in relief ever since, and he was exactly the same - the same kind of pitcher, and the same general quality"

* 2019: 32gms, 4.8ip/gm, 106era-, 99fip-, 108xfip-, 1.7awar, 1.7awar/32gms
* Since: 76gms, 1.4ip/gm, 110era-, 115fip-, 105xfip-, -0.3awar, -0.2awar/65gms.

He magically had a year as a serviceable backend starter and has been a below replacement reliever ever since.
Leaside Cowboy - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 11:42 PM EDT (#432227) #
Mariners sporting the Han Solo / OPP trousers.
christaylor - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 11:43 PM EDT (#432228) #
I agree it's a slippery slope to NASCAR or English Premier League type nonsense.

It just seems that every other logo patch I've seen this far has been done with some aesthetic sense (e.g. Seattle has a nice one and I today looked up what they the advert was for)...

At any rate perhaps those laughing corporate drone ought to stare at the neon green on baby blue (which is any number of green shades TD has used) and ask themselves, "Does this accomplish what we want it to do?"... especially since the TD brand is slathered all over the SkyDome does the patch have any marginal value for brand recognition.

Here's hoping that RBC or BMO (or whatever those monopsonistic Canadian banks are calling themselves) outbids TD for the patch next year and blends in with a nice blue. Even Scotiabank with its red would be nice. It'd be a coup with all the TD slather at the Dome.
Magpie - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 11:43 PM EDT (#432229) #
Yup. An ERA+ of 94 or so is acceptable from a backend starter. But not from a relief pitcher.
uglyone - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 11:46 PM EDT (#432230) #
I mean pulling a guy on 78 pitches when he's going like this strikes me as insane.

If they're this scared of Teoscar they should trade for him.
uglyone - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 11:52 PM EDT (#432231) #
Best possible result - Richards gets 2 ks. But that's still two extra unecessary bullpen innings, even in that best case scenario. What's worse is that encourages him to pull guys early next time.
greenfrog - Friday, July 21 2023 @ 11:54 PM EDT (#432232) #
Great outing by Kikuchi. He’s having a very solid season. If Ryu remains in good form, the rotation should be in excellent shape.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:10 AM EDT (#432233) #
Up 2-0, issuing a leadoff walk to the home team in the 7th. Very bad.
uglyone - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:15 AM EDT (#432234) #
Our manager stinks.

Just turned a killer start into a loss for no reason.
Leaside Cowboy - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:17 AM EDT (#432235) #
All the Blue Jays fans can storm the field and cause the Mariners to forfeit the game.
uglyone - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:19 AM EDT (#432236) #
Sending walker out for the panic delay.

Maybe we get lucky.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:19 AM EDT (#432237) #
Key AB of the game right here.
uglyone - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:23 AM EDT (#432238) #
And now Jansen for the 2nd panic delay.

Come on lady luck bail out our manager.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:25 AM EDT (#432239) #
Swanson > Teo
uglyone - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:26 AM EDT (#432240) #
Thank christ.


Now we have to hope that garcia and romano are flawless.
Leaside Cowboy - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:26 AM EDT (#432241) #
"Let's tear this place apart!"
uglyone - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:27 AM EDT (#432242) #
"Swanson > Teo"

Teo good enough to spook our manager into yanking his filthy dominant SP on 78 pitches tho.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:27 AM EDT (#432243) #
I love that Swanson switched from splitters to FB/cutters to K Suarez. Way to mix it up.
uglyone - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:41 AM EDT (#432244) #
Gonna burn all our good RP in a game where the SP dominated. What a waste. Better win.
soupman - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:41 AM EDT (#432245) #
John Schneider: « It’s called playing the percentages. All good managers do it »
Magpie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:43 AM EDT (#432246) #
Shulman and Martinez seem to have completely forgotten that Biggio is already out of the game.
uglyone - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:46 AM EDT (#432247) #
Garcia was not flawless, turns out.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:47 AM EDT (#432248) #
That Kirk DP ball hurts. The RISP nightmare continues.
uglyone - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:51 AM EDT (#432249) #
DP was bad but the pitch prior was a strikeout anyways. Ump tried to do us a favor.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:52 AM EDT (#432250) #
Maybe the ump felt bad for not calling Rodriguez out on what should have been called strike three the previous inning.
uglyone - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:54 AM EDT (#432251) #
Eh he couldn't call Rodriguez out on bottom paint when strike 2 was 6 inches high.
SK in NJ - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:54 AM EDT (#432252) #
I’m not defending the decision to take Kikuchi out as I thought it was the wrong move given how good he was, but the Jays have decided to intentionally punt Sunday’s game so they have to win these first two. In reality, they appear to not want Kikuchi to face a lineup the 3rd time regardless of the results, so that was likely the main driver.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:59 AM EDT (#432253) #
The pitch to Rodriguez wasn’t even on the paint. It was entirely in the strike zone.

Anyway, the Jays have had lots of chances to score this game. A couple of more runs of support would have made it a lot easier to keep Kikuchi in.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 01:04 AM EDT (#432254) #
Leadoff walk. Probably just lost the game for the Jays.
dalimon5 - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 01:19 AM EDT (#432255) #
Terrible.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 01:22 AM EDT (#432256) #
Let us never speak of this disaster of a game again.
Hodgie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 01:23 AM EDT (#432257) #
The Jays teams of the past couple of years certainly had their faults but at least they were entertaining. This team is both frustrating and boring, but a fun watch at all.
Hodgie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 01:25 AM EDT (#432258) #
NOT a fun watch!
krose - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 01:27 AM EDT (#432259) #
Just not smart enough.
Leaside Cowboy - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 06:11 AM EDT (#432260) #
Sooner or later, is Donnie Baseball the next skipper?
bpoz - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 07:50 AM EDT (#432262) #
Tayler Saucedo is playing well for the Mariners.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 08:21 AM EDT (#432263) #
How do people feel about Tommy Pham as a trade target? Career wRC+ 116 (against LHP: 133). This year his wRC+ is 130 (against LHP: 140). He recently sustained a groin injury and is day-to-day.

Not sure if the Mets will sell players, though. Maybe they would if they drop a few more games below .500 and the teams ahead of them pull away even further.
dalimon5 - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 09:08 AM EDT (#432266) #
I agree that this team is boring. I don't know why. Even when they are winning they are boring. Bassitt, Berrios and Gausman are the 3 entrrtaining things to watch for me. Mayne KK and Whit Merrifield but the rest is boring winning or losing.

I was thinking it would be nice to do a big trade. Something like Tiedeman, Martinez, Pearson and Manoah for Arenado and Hailsey. Move Arenado to SS for rest of season, Bo to 2nd and Whit to OF. Varsho is your 4th OF. Then dont sign Chapman in offseason.

Cards won't do that because he's a "legacy" player but you get the idea. I think this team could benefit from a deal that works long term and short term. I'd imagine that's very hard to pull off.
SK in NJ - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 09:10 AM EDT (#432267) #
I feel the same way about the team being a combination of frustrating and boring. I'll take it if it means 90+ wins again and another playoff appearance (hopefully with better results than last season) but the ride getting there hasn't been very fun so far.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 09:24 AM EDT (#432268) #
Right now the lineup feels like it will be very beatable by top-shelf pitching in the postseason. They need a quality RH bat to deepen the lineup and create additional pressure on opposing pitchers. Do they Jays really want Espinal hitting in a decisive high-leverage PA in the playoffs?

The problem is that other teams are looking for the same thing, so acquiring someone like Pham is probably going to be outrageously expensive. Atkins may have to find a hidden gem like Merrifield if he doesn’t want to start shipping out his better prospects for a rental.
scottt - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 09:47 AM EDT (#432270) #
Tommy Pham is 35 and hasn't had a good year since 2019.
What's changed this year? Is it that he's on a bad team and doesn't feel pressure?

greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 09:59 AM EDT (#432272) #
You know the pickings are slim when Randal Grichuk is being touted as a trade target for teams who need offensive help.
Magpie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 10:05 AM EDT (#432273) #
Yeah, there were a couple of interesting decisions - there always are in a one-run game. First, the quick hook. It's obvious what they were thinking. A one-run game, a runner on base, a home run hitter at the plate who had hit the ball hard his last time up, third time through the order.... (Hang on. Does Kikuchi actually get weaker third time through the order? How would you know anyway, you never let him try. And as it happens, he doesn't.) These other things do make sense, and it's certainly true that Kikuchi gives up home runs more frequently than anyone else on the staff. But so what? Basically, Schneider acted as if he was afraid of falling behind by one run in the sixth inning, which is... you know, the thing you can't make into chicken salad.

But when you only score two runs, you're probably going to lose anyway. I'm not sure I ever want to see Alejandro Kirk batting with a runner on first and less than two outs ever again, under any circumstances. But definitely not against a guy with a very good sinker who gets a zillion ground balls. Sending Kirk up in that situation, instead of Luplow or just leaving Varsho in to strike out, bothered me more than the quick hook.

Well, that's what managers do. Make decisions that bother me.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 10:13 AM EDT (#432274) #
UO nailed it. Not only was Kikuchi probably capable of pitching out of that minor jam (he probably could have completed six or seven innings), but now the bullpen has been worked over entering the second game of a west coast series.

I do think that Schneider sometimes manages “chicken” with his pitching decisions.
Magpie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 10:51 AM EDT (#432275) #
Yes, and even if the worst that could happen did happen - Hernandez takes him deep - you're down by one run in the sixth inning. That's not the end of the world.

Anyway. I don't find this team particularly boring. (I find modern baseball boring, compared to the game of the Days of Yore. Strikeouts are fascist. But that's the game these days.) What's probably less exciting about this team is that their strength is pitching and defense. Preventing stuff from happening is always less exciting than making things happen. There are only 8.5 runs scored by the two teams when the Jays play, which is very near the bottom of the league. There are almost 10 runs scored in games that feature the Rangers or the Angels.

I'm betting the most boring team of all must be Minnesota. Even fewer runs are scored in their games. And their hitters strike out more than any other team's hitters, and their pitchers strike out more guys than any other staff. Wall-to-wall fascism.
Gerry - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 10:51 AM EDT (#432276) #
In addition to Magpie's two decisions, Schneider also had a decision in the ninth. Put Teoscar on and pitch to Tom Murphy, or pitch to Teoscar.

He chose incorrectly for the third time in the game.

After last seasons playoff disaster, does Seattle make Schneiders brain go wonky?
Magpie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 11:19 AM EDT (#432277) #
Schneider also had a decision in the ninth.

I didn't mind that so much. For one thing, Murphy's been the more dangerous hitter this season. But mostly because this is Jordan Romano. He's supposed to be your closer, your bullpen ace. He's supposed be able to get the guy out. That's his job.

And I don't much care for intentional walks. Barry Bonds is retired. Babe Ruth is dead.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 11:33 AM EDT (#432278) #
The key takeaway is don’t walk the leadoff man. It puts the baseball gods in a punitive frame of mind.
ISLAND BOY - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 11:38 AM EDT (#432279) #
" You know the pickings are slim when Randal Grichuk is being touted as a trade target for teams who need offensive help."

Dang! If we only had Raimel Tapia to trade for him.
Nigel - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#432280) #
I don’t find this team boring but then I enjoy good defensive clubs. This is a good defensive team and, oddly, most of the brain cramps this team suffers from (and they do) are on the offensive side of things). I agree with Magpie that, in general, I think the feeling of this being a boring team is because it has tilted heavily towards run scoring and not prevention for a while now.

In the overall sense I’m not surprised about the run scoring issues of this team. It was the reason I was less optimistic than most about the team this year. What I am a bit surprised by is how disjointing the team’s offence feels. The offseason changes should have reduced the team’s HR power but improved its long sequence offence. It has lost the HR but the rest just hasn’t worked out that way on too many nights.
Magpie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 11:52 AM EDT (#432281) #
Tommy Pham is 35 and hasn't had a good year since 2019. What's changed this year?

His BABiP against RH pitching. (In other words, mostly his luck.)
Magpie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 11:58 AM EDT (#432282) #
Move Arenado to SS for rest of season, Bo to 2nd

You sure you want guys learning how to play new positions that they've never played before in August? In the middle of a pennant race? You're a braver man than me.

But you're right, the Cardinals would never move him. Goldschmidt maybe.
lexomatic - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 12:25 PM EDT (#432284) #
Tommy Pham is 35 and hasn't had a good year since 2019.
What's changed this year? Is it that he's on a bad team and doesn't feel pressure?

Some of it might also be health. he had that brutal injury https://www.tmz.com/2021/10/12/tommy-pham-stabbing-photo-gruesome-injury-strip-club-san-diego-padres-mlb/

babip luck can come from health.
dalimon5 - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 01:06 PM EDT (#432286) #
"You sure you want guys learning how to play new positions that they've never played before in August? In the middle of a pennant race? You're a braver man than me."

Arenado has played SS before, last time he played on the same team as Chapman in fact.
Hodgie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 01:28 PM EDT (#432287) #
How good of a defensive team are they really though? They are better than they were, which shouldn't be taken for granted, but I don't find them elite in a way to make them enjoyable to watch.

Kiermaier is still one of the best, Varsho is excellent in CF but not so much in LF which is a problem, Chapman is more very good than elite now, and Kirk has been good beyond expectations.

After those guys, Springer has been adequate (if disappointing), as has Merrifield when he has played 2B. The rest, well, best to avert your eyes.

dalimon5 - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#432288) #
Pretty accurate assessment of the defence.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 02:05 PM EDT (#432290) #
The Jays are first in MLB in defensive runs saved in 2023:

https://www.fieldingbible.com/TeamDefensiveRunsSaved
Magpie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 02:11 PM EDT (#432291) #
Arenado has played SS before

Tell me more. A couple of games?
uglyone - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#432292) #
think the defense has been great personally.

the OF is one of the best i've ever seen, and with Bo improving by leaps and bounds this year the IF has been well above average too.

with two good defensive catchers to boot.
Nigel - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 02:22 PM EDT (#432293) #
Varsho can’t hit (hat tip to hypobole:)) but Varsho is one of the best defensive OFs in baseball. Period. The InF tends to merely above average (on the whole) rather than very good but add in the good defensive C’s and this is a good defense.
electric carrot - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 02:26 PM EDT (#432294) #
Boy, there are lot of Negative Nancy's in the room these days. (Not everyone -- pls don't all take offense.) Last night the Jays lost a game with their best reliever on the mound. That reliever is still awesome -- but not invisible. Jays ahead of Yanks and Boston -- inching closer to Balt/Tampa.

I normally consider myself overly critical ... but here I feel like Pollyanna.
Leaside Cowboy - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 02:29 PM EDT (#432295) #
Pham is kind of psycho.

Trade deadline needs:
1) a bat to play LF / DH against LHP.
2) one more arm in the bullpen.

As scottt suggested, L-C agrees Ryu and Green may be enough on the pitching side.

dalimon5 - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#432296) #
I don't see the value in posting positives after a loss. I want to vent on here and see how the team can improve both statistically and from an entertainment perspective.

dalimon5 - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#432297) #
"Tell me more. A couple of games?"

Nolan Arenado and Matt Chapman are both products of El Toro high school in California and they played there on the same side of the diamond at the same time. Don't know all the details but either Arenado played SS and Chapman played 3B or Chappie was back up SS to Arenado. It depends on who is telling the story. I've heard Buck and others say they played together while orhers didnt specify.
hypobole - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#432298) #
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/instagraphs/blue-jays-acquire-enigmatic-genesis-cabrera/

Longos thoughts on Cabrera and Sammy H.
Magpie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 03:12 PM EDT (#432299) #
It was Arenado. He was a shortstop in high school. Fifteen years ago.
Magpie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#432300) #
Chapman's two years younger. He was a freshman and a sophomore when Arenado was there, and would have replaced him at shortstop when Arenado was drafted. Everybody was a shortstop in high school. The next inning Arenado plays there as a professional will be the first.
hypobole - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#432301) #
"I don't see the value in posting positives after a loss."

I agree, but there is no value in reading someones complaints either. Opinions really have little to no true value whatsoever. Personally, I find value in facts of interest that I didn't know before. But that's just me.
Magpie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 03:36 PM EDT (#432302) #
I think it's just baseball. Losing and failure are baked into the package. A really good team will lose as many games in a season as Tom Brady lost in 20 years in New England. An elite hitter, the cream of the crop, will make an out 650% of the time. Losing and failure is what everyone signs up for.

What I've been pondering is Chris Bassitt's throwing motion. It struck me as different somehow, not like the other pitchers, who all look like they've been taught by the same coach. I think I've got it. He throws like an outfielder - the way he reaches back, the way his body opens up. Like he's trying to throw the ball 350 feet or something. He's not, obviously. It just looks that way.
Magpie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#432303) #
Whoa. 650%? That's even more than I thought. (Should read 60%, of course.)
Hodgie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#432304) #
Might just be me, but not sure how the infield is judged to be above average. Right now they have two plus defenders in Chapman and Kirk. My earlier thoughts were anecdotal, but looking at the various defensive metrics, in the aggregate SS is still below average (albeit an improvement), 2B is well below average to god awful, and 1B is the worst in MLB.

The reason the Jays are leading in DRS is that the Varsho/KK CF monster is literally lapping the MLB field and putting up historically great DRS numbers while the Bible still views Chapman as truly elite. Other metrics are not nearly as kind to the team on the whole. To my eye, they are a team with some obviously elite elements to their D but as a whole, they are not elite to the point that I find it bridges the entertainment gap left by the offensive regression and the plain offensive base running.

uglyone - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#432305) #
By uzr/150:

* #2 3B +6.7
* #5 SS +6.1
* #15 1B +0.9
* #25 2B -3.1
Magpie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#432306) #
I would note that infield defense is nowhere near as important to anyone as it was 20 or 30 or 40 years ago. And it's even less important on a team that employs a zillion fly ball pitchers plus Tim Mayza.
Chuck - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#432307) #
Another brutal ump. What’s disconcerting is that many of the young umps are as bad as the guys they will be supplanting. Until the machines rise, that is, and call the games themselves.
Leaside Cowboy - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#432308) #
Robot umpires will become self-aware in 2029.
mathesond - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#432309) #
"I don't see the value in posting positives after a loss."

What about posting negatives after a win? Not saying that you've done that, dalimon5, but it 's certainly something I've noticed more than in season's past.
mathesond - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 05:57 PM EDT (#432310) #
I wonder if the entertainment value of the previous seasons was driven in part by the players seeming to have fun and enjoy themselves and the game. While the addition of Mattingly and the breakup of the barrio was lauded in some corners as steps necessary for the Jays to take a step forward, it seems to have led to a team that people don't find entertaining.

Nice play by Chapman there.
Nigel - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 06:07 PM EDT (#432311) #
He had a horrific first month but since May 1, Biggio has a 114 wRC+.
Chuck - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 06:13 PM EDT (#432312) #
Well Teo is entertaining, in his own way.
hypobole - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 06:20 PM EDT (#432313) #
Good to see Varsho with a clutch hit. (yeah, I know - for once).
uglyone - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 06:26 PM EDT (#432314) #
Shouldnt let the ein orbloss effect your opinion of whatbwas negetive or positive.

Plenty of times a loss deserves positivity and a win megwtivity.
uglyone - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#432315) #
I.e. why was a very rested gausman pulled on 87 pitches is a good question even if we win.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#432316) #
I have a lot of respect for Teo. He’s had an impressive career that has surpassed what many people expected from him, and he was a brilliant acquisition by the Jays. He may now be past his peak, though.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#432317) #
“Entertaining, in his own way” Teo is taking down the Blue Jays in this series.
Hodgie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#432318) #
That is a good point about infield defense Magpie.

Saw UO posted UZR numbers, here are OOA numbers and MLB rank for context:

  • 1B -9 (#30)
  • 2B -4 (#23)
  • SS -4 (#25)
  • 3B 5 (#9)
Chuck - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#432319) #
“Entertaining, in his own way” Teo is taking down the Blue Jays in this series.

I'm entertained!

scottt - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 06:45 PM EDT (#432320) #
The young umpires come from the minors where they don't call strikes, so it shouldn't be surprising that they are not good at it.

Half the AAA games use the challenge system so that the umps have a minimum of experience calling strikes.
I'd be very surprised to hear that the umps are evaluated on their strike calling skills.

scottt - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 06:47 PM EDT (#432321) #
It's sad that the high leverage pitchers are overworked when they are riding a LLWL record.
Chuck - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 06:48 PM EDT (#432322) #
In one at-bat alone, Bichette's, Emil Jimenez managed to make four wrong calls. That's some weird bizarro world umpiring.
dalimon5 - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 06:52 PM EDT (#432323) #
Positive thoughts and comments:

Schneider makes bold decisions with pitchers.

Nate Pearson throws gas.

Vladdy hit a home run in good spot.

Belt leads the majors in pitches per plate appearance.

Great to see so many Jays fans at the game.

Shane McClanahan is falling apart.

Also, my tongue is bleeding from this post.

Magpie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#432324) #
it shouldn't be surprising that they are not good at it.

What, no 90+ mph change-ups at the lower levels? But that's good to know, because I was surprised at how consistently awful it's been.
Hodgie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 06:56 PM EDT (#432325) #
Also a positive, after watching the bullpen the last two days I am now mentally prepared for my viewing of Oppenheimer in an hour.
Chuck - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 07:00 PM EDT (#432326) #
I am become Kirk, destroyer of worlds
BlueJayWay - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 07:17 PM EDT (#432327) #
Well that was certainly not boring.
Magpie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 07:19 PM EDT (#432328) #
Well, that was definitely full of entertainment.
Magpie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 07:20 PM EDT (#432329) #
Something to be said for a quiet, uneventful 3-1 game...
greenfrog - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 07:32 PM EDT (#432330) #
Positive thoughts.

The Jays played Seattle in an important game and no one got carted off the field on a stretcher.
SK in NJ - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#432331) #
Taking Gausman out today was a bit more defensible than last night's bullpen usage. Gausman hadn't started in 2 weeks due to injury and gave up 4 HR's so it's not like he was dominating. Kikuchi was on a low pitch count and doing very well but the Jays analytics told them that he is incapable of pitching 3rd time through the order, so you have to go with the computer rather than what you see, even when it's a start of a west coast trip and pen usage has to be monitored. I personally would have kept Gausman in as long as he felt alright, mostly because the SP's have to start giving length to compensate for Manoah and Schneider's quick hooks, but I felt the Kikuchi decision was a lot more egregious.

To be fair though, today's version of the Jays was more entertaining than the "piece together 4 hits just to score 1" offense that we have seen far too often. Hopefully we start to see more power down the stretch. With that said, this still resembles a high 80's win team more often than not, and you're playing with fire with thinking that's going to be enough to hold on to a WC spot. The Jays are fortunate that Judge and Yordan got hurt and it gave them the ability to keep pace or stay ahead. If those two were healthy, then the Jays are probably on the outside looking in right now.

This is not the roster to double down on, so hopefully Atkins doesn't do anything foolish at the deadline. Add depth where you can and live with the consequences. Keep the prospect capital, whatever is left of it, in tact. This team doesn't look like a WS contender, so just try to do enough to get in and hope for some breaks.
Magpie - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 08:10 PM EDT (#432332) #
the Jays analytics told them that [Kikuchi] is incapable of pitching 3rd time through the order

If it is indeed the analytics department (I suspect Pete Walker myself.) At any rate,  one wonders what it's based on. For his career:

Split                 G    PA     AB   R    H   2B  3B  HR   BB   SO   SO/W  BAVG   OBP   SLG   OPS
1st PA in G, as SP   110   981   856  108  216  43   2  42  111  213   1.92  .252  .344  .454  .799
2nd PA in G, as SP   108   944   861  122  228  43   4  44   68  204   3.00  .265  .322  .477  .799
3rd PA in G, as SP    92   448   408   62  109  28   4  18   33  105   3.18  .267  .326  .488  .814

And this season:

Split                 G   PA   AB    R   H  2B  3B  HR  BB  SO  SO/W  BAVG   OBP   SLG   OPS
1st PA in G, as SP   20  180  165   14  44   7   0   8  13  47  3.62  .267  .328  .455  .782
2nd PA in G, as SP   20  179  164   21  39   5   0  12  13  43  3.31  .238  .294  .488  .782
3rd PA in G, as SP   19   73   67    8  17   2   1   2   5  18  3.60  .254  .315  .403  .718

If he falls apart third time around, I'm not seeing the evidence.


dalimon5 - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 08:51 PM EDT (#432335) #
Oh Magpie with the dagger for Schneider.
Gerry - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 09:32 PM EDT (#432338) #
Chad Green threw ten pitches tonight for Dunedin, one inning. 4 pitches were fastballs, average velo 94.5 He also threw four cutters, one change, one slider.
Mike Green - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#432339) #
That doesn't surprise me at all. When Kikuchi is on, he's generally good all game. When he's off, his control suffers and his pitch count gets high by the time he is 2 times through the order. The problem has been that he is not on as often as would be desirable.
uglyone - Saturday, July 22 2023 @ 11:06 PM EDT (#432341) #
Leaside Cowboy - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 05:29 AM EDT (#432342) #
It's stunning how much John Gibbons resembles James Cagney.

85bluejay - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 09:32 AM EDT (#432344) #
Both Shapiro & Atkins should be on the HOT seat - unfortunately Shapiro overseeing the Rogers centre reno and being the personal choice of Edward Rogers will probably survive even if the team disappoints this season.
bpoz - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 09:47 AM EDT (#432345) #
IMO Shapiro & Atkins have done a very good job. I believe the rebuild started at the 2018 trade deadline. The results for 2020,21 and 22 were very successful. So a very fast rebuild basically due to signing expensive FAs. This 2023 team is competing for a playoff spot and could win 90+ games. 90+ wins in 2023 will qualify as a good/successful season.

One year we could have an 84-78 record which is not a good/successful team. It is a winning record and could probably be in the hunt for the last WC. But still a mediocre team.
christaylor - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 10:23 AM EDT (#432347) #
That doesn't make sense to me. They had a plan and largely executed the plan. Manoah blowing up is not on the GM and neither is Vlad underperforming. The Varsho trade was likely an overpay but probably not by much for a player who is likely not a full-time starter. KK and Gausman were good signings. The Berrios trade worked. Merrifield was a sneaky good acquisition.

I think we're all frustrated by this team but the baseball ops process is sound and they executed.
Chuck - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 11:17 AM EDT (#432348) #
One player seems to get a pass for his under-performance this season and I don't know why. George Springer is having the worst year of his career despite being healthy enough to play almost every day. I'm not suggesting he be pilloried or that he's not capable of turning things around -- I hope he is -- but he certainly needs to be on the list of players of whom more was expected. This is just season 3 of his 6-year contract, so hopefully there is plenty left in the tank.
99BlueJaysWay - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#432349) #
I agree. The players are not living up to expectations, that’s not the GM.

In terms of the entertainment, this team simply gives away way too many games, and steals very few. They also don’t blow the other team out very often, which are my favourite types of games.

This team makes me yell at the TV more than any other Jays team I’ve watched. They are probably the most talented team, top to bottom, since the World Series years (in my view), so I’ve experienced this season with enormous frustration
Magpie - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 12:08 PM EDT (#432350) #
George Springer is having the worst year of his career despite being healthy enough to play almost every day.

His 2023 numbers are still being dragged down by his wretched April, but he has turned it around to some extent. He's hitting .288/.355/.453 since April 30. Which is a) perfectly fine and very much like what he did in 2022, and b) nevertheless a step below his best years in Houston.
dalimon5 - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 12:26 PM EDT (#432351) #
Springer had a bad April, I'm fine with him.

This FO has been successful and have done a good imho.

This manager is worst of Montoyo, Gibbons, Gaston. The only big positive I see is that the players really seem to like him.

Bottom line: chances of championships are and have been festering. Atkins will retire one day and look back and see he was so close in '21, '22, and '23 and came out of it with no playoff games. A better deadline here or there, a better manager to start the right SP and make the right BP decisions and this team easily could have already has playoff series wins in '21 and '22 as many posters have highlighted just how good those teams were, especially '21.

BTW, when I point out I think this team needs a netter manager I can admit there are maybe 3-5 managers that would actually be better by making their own decisions and just getting the calls right. Terry Francona and Kevin Cash are two I have seen. There are others but I haven't watched them in game.

uglyone - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#432352) #
Doing a long rebuild that tops out at hovering around the 90 win mark is a fail to me.
Leaside Cowboy - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 01:05 PM EDT (#432353) #
Games as DH:

43 - Belt .781 OPS
22 - Guerrero .822
11 - Springer .421
10 - Kirk .579
5 - Jansen 1.079
3 - Horwitz .650
2 - Chapman 1.000
2 - Bichette 1.200
1 - Luplow 0-for-3

Collectively, the DH position slashes .240 / .342 / .410 / .752 OPS.

11 pinch hits for the DH produced 1.330 OPS.
Mike Green - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 01:22 PM EDT (#432354) #
Long rebuild?  They made the playoffs in 2016 and again in 2020, and then won 91 and 92 games in 21-22.  It's not what I would call a long rebuild.  It may or may not end up a successful one.

The late demotion and the early promotion of Manoah this year were FO decisions.  Obviously they take advice from manager, pitching coach, and development people, but the buck does stop with them when it comes to promotion/demotion. 
Mike Green - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 01:53 PM EDT (#432355) #
fWAR has VGJ at 0.5, tenth on the Blue Jays.  Amazingly, he almost gives away his above-average hitting (6.5 RAA) with his horrendous baserunning (-4.3 RAA).  From 2021-23, he's been a 3.4 WAR/650PA player. That's good, but no more.  Over that same period, Kevin Kiermaier has been a 4 fWAR player.  It is true that Kiermaier plays much less, but still. 
Gerry - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 02:01 PM EDT (#432356) #
Nate Pearson has been bumped down to AAA to make room for Genesis Cabrera.

Pearson has hit a bit of a wall recently, but it is still a surprise that he is the one going.
BlueJayWay - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 02:02 PM EDT (#432357) #
Doing a long rebuild that tops out at hovering around the 90 win mark is a fail to me.

That's true but 'long rebuild' is not something the Jays have ever really done. Shapiro/Atkins, specifically, did a fairly quick two-three year rebuild/retool rather than the 5 or 6 year complete teardown that the Orioles are finally coming out of.
uglyone - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#432358) #


They've been here 8yrs. Call it a build or a rebuild or whatever you want, either way it's a long one.
dalimon5 - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#432359) #
"fWAR has VGJ at 0.5, tenth on the Blue Jays. Amazingly, he almost gives away his above-average hitting (6.5 RAA) with his horrendous baserunning (-4.3 RAA). From 2021-23, he's been a 3.4 WAR/650PA player. That's good, but no more. Over that same period, Kevin Kiermaier has been a 4 fWAR player. It is true that Kiermaier plays much less, but still. "

This is the Vladdy I have been watching usually followed by a perusal on this site commenting on this elite talents with no mention of the other side.
bpoz - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#432360) #
I would compare the 2018 roster with the 2020 roster and let the number of new faces determine build or rebuild. Many faces means build IMO.

If Vlad & Bo leave I would try to value them to the team compared to the replacements. But I don't know how to do that. I would consider Orelvis & Barger as possible replacements if they are great. I am assuming that Vlad & Bo are the 2 most valuable contributors. So the 2 new best contributors of value. It may be easier to just compare the wins with and without Vlad & Bo. Then determine build vs rebuild.
ISLAND BOY - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 03:02 PM EDT (#432361) #
" His 2023 numbers are still being dragged down by his wretched April.."

Springer suffered from a viral infection in late April, early May and missed a few games with it. He had the infection for about 2 weeks and lost about 10 pounds. ( As I recall hearing on a game broadcast) This affected him for a while but he's looked like his normal self the last month or so.
dalimon5 - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#432362) #
Didn't Springer also have a baby in the last 2 weeks?
Marc Hulet - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 03:36 PM EDT (#432363) #
Viral infections and babies make you try and pull every single outside pitch and fail to recognize the approach used by every single pitcher facing you for the past four months?
Magpie - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#432364) #
I do not know how they're measuring base-running these days, but it's certainly true that only one AL player (Amed Rosario) has made more outs on the bases than Guerrero.

Feel free to replace "Guerrero" in that sentence with "Chapman."
Leaside Cowboy - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#432366) #
Blue Jays? The Toronto Storks is more like it with all these new arrivals.
Mike Green - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#432367) #
The Orioles are leading the Rays again late in the game.  Their wOBA leader has hit a home run, and it isn't who one might guess. 
dalimon5 - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#432368) #
"Viral infections and babies make you try and pull every single outside pitch and fail to recognize the approach used by every single pitcher facing you for the past four months?"

This sounds like an opinion from someone with little to no experience with newborns in the modern age. I would expect you to understand the challenges better than most seeing how you can likely relate to raising youngsters in the 2000s.

Essentially, in 2023, having a baby and being a present father is very challenging and usually leads to loss of sleep, marital pressures and other stress inducing scenarios. Viral infections speak for themselves as it affects your physical body which is why many players take time off rather than play through.
Magpie - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#432369) #
Book of Genesis Cabrera activated and... Nate Pearson optioned?

Clearly, Mitch White has compromising photographs of someone.
Magpie - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 04:14 PM EDT (#432370) #
So against this pitcher, LH batters have hit .417/.493/.867?

OK. WHy isn't Biggio playing after reaching base 4 times in 5 Plate Appearances yesterday? Does he need to cool off for his own good?
Mike Green - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#432371) #
Time to turn off the volume on the broadcast.  They're explaining why the Pearson demotion is a good idea.  It's inane.  Pearson has been pretty effective, mediocre ERA notwithstanding. Hit bunching has been a bit of an issue, but as problems go, it's a relatively minor one. 
Nigel - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#432372) #
The Pearson demotion and Biggio not being in the lineup are just silly. Hardly earth shattering in any respect but they make you question the decision makers and what they value.
Mike Green - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 04:52 PM EDT (#432373) #
In good news, the plate umpire has an accurate strike zone today.   One missed call today, as far as I can tell, and it wasn't a bad one.  
BlueJayWay - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 05:11 PM EDT (#432374) #
OK. WHy isn't Biggio playing after reaching base 4 times in 5 Plate Appearances yesterday? Does he need to cool off for his own good?

I wondered that as well. Woo has been death to righties but torched by lefties. Biggio's been hitting pretty well for a while now. He sits today. Weird.
krose - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#432375) #
Enhances the enjoyment of the game when you’re not wondering how the call will go. Also doesn’t tweak my paranoia button.
krose - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#432376) #
Have been saying for some time that baseball smarts is not a strong suit of this team.
electric carrot - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#432377) #
Exhibit B in case that VGJr is an elite hitter.

97mph sinker oppo field homer in tight game.

(Just compiling evidence.)
Mike Green - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 05:54 PM EDT (#432378) #
That was a better game from Manoah.  Not a good game, mind you.  The stuff was better; the control still nowhere near good enough. 
Nigel - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#432379) #
There were moments of positivity. There was a Raleigh AB in the 3rd or 4th where he threw him 3 really good pitches.
krose - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 06:19 PM EDT (#432380) #
Springer just has to pull that outside pitch because … well just because!
krose - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 06:32 PM EDT (#432381) #
Too many dumb things. Not worth a shot in spite of what Buck says. He was clearly safe.
dalimon5 - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#432382) #
The point is that discussions of Vlad on here focus only on his hitting so you're not sharing anything out of the ordinary.

krose - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 06:48 PM EDT (#432383) #
Trevor Richards moving up the totem pole.
Nigel - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 07:00 PM EDT (#432384) #
Varsho can’t hit but is a fabulous bunter. It’s the 9th with a one run lead - that situation screams for a squeeze play. Thankfully the M’s screwed that up.
Chuck - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#432385) #
Not sure the bunt was a great idea, not with two high K guys up next.
Magpie - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#432386) #
Are you not entertained?
BlueJayWay - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 07:15 PM EDT (#432387) #
Every Jays/Mariners game there is a classic. Crazy.
Chuck - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 07:17 PM EDT (#432388) #
Crawford’s bunt I mean. Just started watching this in the 9th so am just now seeing the highlights. Teo’s defense was apparently entertaining yet again.
Leaside Cowboy - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#432389) #
Hooray Frances Farmer!
scottt - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 07:23 PM EDT (#432390) #
It really annoys me that Mayza would pitch the guy outside and the Jay would play him to pull.
There's no point to this shifted defense if you're not pitching inside.
I see Tampa straightening up their defense with 2 strikes. 

Magpie - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 07:28 PM EDT (#432391) #
Hooray Frances Farmer!

Finally!

Aw. Fred McGriff looks so, so happy. If he's happy, I'm happy.
hypobole - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#432392) #
Jays now #2 in mlb with GDP's  #83, 84 and 85. Next up the Dodgers with only 44 GDPs on the year, 9 fewer than 29th place KC. Atkins should get only get gay or celibate position players from now on so we don't keep grounding  into double plays because of babies.
Magpie - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 07:56 PM EDT (#432393) #
Jays on pace to hit into 137 DPs, about the same as last season. This is despite Hernandez and Gurriel being replaced largely by two guys (Belt nd Varsho) who don't (and haven't) hit into nearly as many of them. We talked about this last week, of course. The three culprits are Kirk, Springer, and Kiermaier. Last year, they hit into 20 DPs - this year they're already at 34 of them, with 62 games left to play.
greenfrog - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 08:08 PM EDT (#432394) #
That was a badly-needed win.

It’s remarkable that the NYY have lost a zillion player-games to injury (Judge, Stanton, Rodon, Cortes, Montas, Severino, Loaisiga, Bader, Donaldson, Trevino (Lou), Trevino (Jose), Torres, Effross) — a perfect storm of injuries — and they are still only *two* games behind the incredibly-healthy Blue Jays.

To me, this says the Jays need a significant upgrade at the deadline. A good RH corner outfielder and maybe another power arm out of the bullpen. The team should not be confident they’ll make the postseason if they sit around and do nothing. Of course, it’s possible that the player(s) they most need won’t be available at a non-exorbitant price.
Nigel - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 08:21 PM EDT (#432396) #
Yes greenfrog and the Astros probably have an argument that they’ve been hit harder with injuries. There are two ways to look at it - the Jays are a mile behind those clubs (and others) when healthy and therefore shouldn’t spend more resources on this year’s good but not great club; alternatively, this is the year to invest in the club because next year those clubs have a good shot at being healthier. Both are reasonable.
uglyone - Sunday, July 23 2023 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#432397) #
Gurriel 103wrc+, 1.1war, 2.0war/650pa
Teoscar 102wrc+, 1.0war, 1.6war/650pa
Moreno 82wrc+, 0.5war, 1.3war/650pa
Tapia 77wrc+, 0.1war, 0.4war/650pa

Belt 128wrc+, 1.1war, 2.7war/650pa
Kiermaier 111wrc+, 1.9war, 4.7war/650pa
Varsho 73wrc+, 0.7war, 1.2war/650pa
Lukes 68wrc+, 0.1war, 2.6war/650pa

vw_fan17 - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 01:04 AM EDT (#432398) #
Right now, it seems the easiest way to get Springer (and Kirk?) out is to put men on / load the bases.


Glad we won 1/3. Getting swept would have been hard to take..
scottt - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 09:37 AM EDT (#432399) #
It's not about the Yankees. If the Jays don't win enough a team will overtake them. It doesn't have to be the Yankees.

The Bronx Bummers are a respectable 53-47, tied with Boston for last place in the division, 2 games out of wild card spot. You can blame that on the balance schedule.

The Jays are hanging to the last place wild card with a 55-45 record.
4 games ahead of the Angels and 4 and half ahead of the Mariners who will play Oakland in September.

Tampa has fallen and is 3-7 in their last 10.

The Yankees have found some offense from Greg Allen (OPS .827), Billy McKinney (OPS .809) and Jake Bauers (OPS .748).
They still have a core of Rizzo, Torres, Volpe and LeMahieu who haven't miss any time.
Cole is having a good year. Doming German with an ERA+ of 94 has managed to throw a perfect game.
The pen has been good enough to protect the leads.

The Jays don't really have spots to improve at the deadline. They have 9 regulars. They have 6 starters. The pen is doing OK--as long as the starters are not pulled too early. I don't even see a spot for Genesis Cabrera. The sooner they dump Mitch White, the better. Chad Green should be helpful, mostly because he'll be given a chance in high leverage. Is Jay Jackson not good enough to pitch some middle innings?  They could use a bench bat to platoon at DH or pinch hit but they need the regulars to be better. Only Guerrero, Belt, Kirk and Biggio have hit well over the last week.

dalimon5 - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 10:01 AM EDT (#432400) #
It is interesting because you're right, there doesn't seem to be an easy place to upgrade this line up. At the same time, according to sources in and around the organization, the team wants and is expecting a middle of the order right handed bat to be added at the deadline. I found that interesting when I heard it this weekend. When I look at "available" players to trade for I don't see anyone that would crack our line up as a middle order of the bat and especially not from the right side. I hope this FO is working on acquiring someone off the radar as the names out there are super meh.

Tim Anderson
Joc Pederson
Jurickson Profar
Jeimer Candelario


Names not mentioned but not RHH or really available:
Paul Goldschmidt
Nolan Arenado
The Show
Cody Bellinger

A few off the radar names:
Corbin Burnes
German Marquez (for next year)



Unrelated to the names above:


Bob Nightengale has a decent article on USA today right now: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2023/07/23/mlb-trade-deadline-2023-10-biggest-questions-top-players-available/70452707007/

Soem interesting thigns he mentions is the Rays will be bold and aggressive while the Dodgers will be quiet at this year's trade deadline.
uglyone - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 10:04 AM EDT (#432401) #
yeah I agree you never really need to focus on the other teams in the standings until maybe the very very end.

just focus on our own record.

If we get 90 wins we most likely get one of the bottom playoff spots.

If we get 95 wins we're looking at the top wild card spot and maybe the division though in our division that's most likely not enough for top spot.
greenfrog - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 10:21 AM EDT (#432402) #
Scottt, Torres is currently out with an injury.
bpoz - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 10:29 AM EDT (#432403) #
Good to see a lot of positive vibes about this Jays team.
Joe - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#432404) #
Seriously, bpoz — this is turning toxic in a hurry.
bpoz - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 10:54 AM EDT (#432405) #
Thanks for the response Joe. You are right there is some toxic factor. July record so far 10W-7L which is a 95 win pace. So pretty good IMO.
hypobole - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 11:25 AM EDT (#432406) #
Note of optimism. Lots of pet theories about Vlad's power outage this year. FG article at the AS break showed his .443 SLG vs .545 xSLG as the 2nd highest difference in baseball. Stats like that show poor luck on well hit balls more than anything and almost invariably regress to the mean.


In the nine games since, he's hit 2 doubles and 4 HR's for a .667 SLG.  His SLG has gone up from .443 to .463, even as his xSLG has actually dropped from .545 to .539. That .102 point gap between the 2  is now down to a .076 point gap.
uglyone - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 11:33 AM EDT (#432407) #
Note that as bad as 24yr old Kirk has been this year, he's still been better than the 23yr old Moreno, offensively and defensively.
92-93 - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#432410) #
There is a very obvious spot for an improvement - LF. Varsho hasn’t hit in months and Statcast thinks he’s mediocre in LF.
ISLAND BOY - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 01:10 PM EDT (#432411) #
Moreno is now on the 10 day IL with left shoulder inflammation.

Bo Bichette is really in a slump for the first time this year and Springer, who has been good, has really dropped off this past week, including two DP's with the bases loaded yesterday. It hurts when the top of the order is struggling.
hypobole - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#432412) #
92-93, what does statcast measure?
hypobole - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 01:40 PM EDT (#432414) #
OK, here's the answer. Catching fly balls. That's it. If a ball has a 50% chance of being caught, diving and missing a ball that rolls to the wall for a triple is exactly the same as pulling up and holding the runner to a single. If the batter tries to take 2nd on the play and gets thrown out, statcast gives the OF no credit.  If an OF charges bobbles or misses a GB, there is no statcast penalty. That's why looking at DRS or UZR, which do those into account, is important as well.

All that said, don't disagree on the premise of getting another LF.
Nigel - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 02:13 PM EDT (#432416) #
That Varsho is only mediocre defensively in LF doesn't pass the eye test to me. I agree that what he brings to the table has more utility in CF and therefore a LF upgrade is what this team needs. As this roster is currently constructed, Varsho is really a 4th OF/late inning defensive replacement.
uglyone - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#432417) #
I think the eye test and the vast majority of stats line up pretty well when it comes to Varsho's excellent defense.

People say "but his stick only has value in CF", well, so put him at CF and out Kiermaier's 111wrc+ in LF if you think it works that way.

that being said, i still think he'll hit. Last year it was in the 2nd half he really came on strong (118wrc+).

there is also the internal option of Biggio, who over the last 2 months (since may 18) has 100pa of a 142wrc+.
hypobole - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 02:22 PM EDT (#432418) #
there is also the internal option of Biggio, who over the last 2 months (since may 18) has 100pa of a 142wrc+.

Schneider doesn't like using Biggio because he doesn't hit into enough double plays.:(
Nigel - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#432422) #
uo - I like the optimism on Varsho's hitting ability:) Keep the faith, mine has been lost. At this point, I just have assumed that Biggio ran over Schneider's dog or some such.
92-93 - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 02:57 PM EDT (#432423) #
Varsho's mediocre Outs Above Average in LF matches the eye test for me. Funny how people ignore the defensive stats they don't like, and that it's actually DRS and UZR that use an eye test.

https://www.mlb.com/news/statcast-introduces-outs-above-average-for-infield-defense

Merrifield has been slightly worse in LF, but at least he can hit.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/outs_above_average?type=Fielder&startYear=2023&endYear=2023&split=yes&team=&range=year&min=50&pos=7&roles=&viz=hide
hypobole - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 03:02 PM EDT (#432424) #
You are the one ignoring stats you don't like.
92-93 - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 03:05 PM EDT (#432425) #
"As useful and effective as they've been over the years, DRS and UZR use either the eye test via video scouting or zone-based systems. The Statcast technology allows us to know exactly where each fielder stands, which is helpful in a baseball world where shifting and out-of-position defenders are commonplace."

And most of Varsho's DRS has come in CF.
hypobole - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 03:14 PM EDT (#432426) #
UZR actually uses OAA for its flycatching component.  But as I posted earlier, there is more to outfield play than catching flies.
92-93 - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#432427) #
Mr. Miyagi prefers OAA.
uglyone - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#432428) #
All the all-encompassing defensive stats don't just like varsho's D, they love it.

hypobole - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#432429) #
Let me clarify. What 92-93 posted about OAA WAS correct.  BUT the FG group realized that as well a couple of years ago, so instead of their old flycatching component (as posted by 92-93), they replaced it with OAA .  So yes, OAA best captures flycatching. But then UZR is the system for you! It's OAA and so much more!! 

Hodgie - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#432430) #
That is true hypobole, but even UZR thinks Varsho has been merely good in LF not great, and certainly not good enough to provide positive value once the positional adjustment is made. Don't suppose anyone has noticed who UZR thinks has been the best LF in MLB this year? Hint, it's an old friend and please don't yell at me about defensive small-sample sizes, I know Varsho is a better defender, I just found it funny.
uglyone - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 04:24 PM EDT (#432431) #
that's ok, it also thinks Varsho is the best defensive CF in baseball this year.
92-93 - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#432433) #
The all-encompassing DRS thinks Varsho has only been moderately better in LF than Teoscar has been in RF. And that Springer kinda stinks for a former CF.
hypobole - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#432434) #
Yup, -1 OAA, but 5 OF assists and 0 errors in just over 450 innings.
Nigel - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#432435) #
FWIW I think that what this discussion highlights is that all of these defensive metrics need larger sample sizes than 2/3's of a season to be truly informative.
uglyone - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#432436) #
DRS also thinks Varsho is the best defensive CF in baseball this year. With only KK earning more DRS, but in triple the innings.



what usually happens I think is corner OFs get screwed in defensive value when playing beside elite CFs.

It is funny to see both Teo and Gurriel putting up their first good defensive metrics of their careers this year, and not just good but pretty great. We watched them long enough tho.
hypobole - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#432437) #
Springer doesn't really have the arm for a RF. Teoscar does, only 2 OF's have more than his 9 OF assists.
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