Tonight's game will be broadcast on Apple TV.

hard not to look past this series to the all-important next week, but please win this series.

I really like the rumours of adding Tim Anderson to play second base.

He could be a low key pickup in the vein of Whitt Merrifield.

that would be an interesting gamble.

but holy crap has he been terrible this year.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/whats-going-on-with-tim-anderson/

fwiw, since the all-star break he's put up a 128wrc+ in 54pa.

Tim Anderson is having a terrible year and I think high maintenance - I'd pass.

Giolito tonight for the Angels

Yankees have activated Judge

High maintenance? How so? I haven't read much of him, so I honestly have no idea.

Springer has been dropped from the leadoff role, at least for tonight. His recent play hasn't armed him with much leverage to argue this decision.

Varsho continues to bat 7th, not 9th. This may not amount to much of a difference, but it does seem an act of stubbornness.

White Sox keep unloading. Lynn and Kelly to the Dodgers, Graveman to the Astros.

Tim Anderson has a $14 M club option for next year, with a $1 M buyout.

Ryu will be activated and start Tuesday. 6 man rotation for now.

The Jays will end up acquiring at least one player.  Anyone want to predict who will be acquired?

The Jays will end up acquiring at least one player.  Anyone want to predict who will be acquired?

Probably some AAAA player or past-his-prime veteran having a good season. Atkins already used all his bullets in the offseason with mixed (IMHO) results. I mean, maybe we pick up someone like McCutcheon to platoon with Belt / Varsho. Although he's been hitting RHP better than LHP this season..

I'd be shocked if we picked up anyone in the middle of 3-WAR+ season / i.e. a major difference maker.

Not sure how much pitching we pick up - we are getting Ryu and Green, so that's (in theory) like already getting 2 more pitchers.. And we just got Genesis Cabrera, so that's 3 new arms.

I don't know about high maintenance but he is a character:

https://www.gq.com/story/tim-anderson-profile

...and while I tend not to buy into these narratives, it's hard to argue that the team could use a character after undergoing a charm scrub in the off-season.

He'll play 2B and if the price is right, I'm all for having Anderson on the field to make the team more enjoyable to watch.

In that vein, I will predict we pick up none of Soto, Ohtani or Aaron Judge. :)

Here's my prediction : LF Connor Joe.  279/380/490  138 wRC+ vs LHP. Got plenty enough on the farm for him.

Why can't they put the west coast games on Crap TV instead?

Graveman to the Astros.for the 32nd pick of 2019.
Lance Lynn and Joe Kelly to the Dodgers.

I still think the Jays should make a significant move—partly to improve the team and partly to get them fired up for the race to the postseason. A repeat of 2021 (missing the postseason by a game) due to a failure to upgrade the roster would be a disaster for the front office.

The Jays have done well at the deadline buying low with Merrifield, Ray, Stripling, etc. I expect that Trent to continue, which is why I am looking at Anderson. Eloy Jimenez would also be interesting as a right handed OF/DH bay.

I mean they also did pretty well when they went big at the deadline.

48 pitches through 3 for Gausman. I hope he can have a couple quick ones so he can go more than 5

I’m watching the game on Apple TV. Like so many U.S. sports shows, it’s waaay over-produced. Like the Kentucky Derby or the Super Bowl. Too many overly-assured ‘presenters’, (one of whom was just going on about Gausman as if he were a lefty!), too much attempting to dazzle with technological footwork. A generic blonde doing snappy ‘interviews’ is also obligatory. The crowd sound is heightened after a play of any kind. Too loud. How can they not see all this as phony?

It’s a great relief not having to endure the repeated commercials on Rogers; but I’d love to have Dan Shulman and someone at the mike. Just let us watch the damned ball game.

Lane Thomas from Nationals
Josh Hader from Padres

Prediction or wishful thinking?

Gausman at 87 pitches with 5-6-7 due up in the 7th.

Gausman should stay in until Ohtani comes back around, unless he gets into trouble. He's on an extra day of rest and will be for his next start as well.

Following on GameDay. Did they get the DP ball from Springer and blow it?

Basically yes

Followed by a big base running mistake by Bo, he should have been home on the wild pitch.

nice to hear the lady on the radio providing colour commentary.

Lane Thomas could be a good trade target. Good suggestion.

Wow. Bo could have scored from third on that wild pitch, but he stopped watching the ball and headed back to the base. Yuck. Another mental error by the Jays in a key situation. The game should be 4-1 right now.

While the players should be accountable for these repeated gaffes, I think Schneider also bears some responsibility for this. He’s the skipper. Preparation and accountability start at the top.

Peak Jays - having bases loaded less than 2 outs and not scoring (2 Ks this time). Then immediately loading the bases with 0 outs.
What a frustrating team.

Houdini.

Fantastic job by Swanson to bail out Gausman. Just brilliant.

For anyone with eyes on this game, did they pan the dugout and find Ohtani weeping with despair at the dreck that are his teammates? It must be frustrating knowing you have to do everything for your team to have a chance to win.

I just trust Swanson so much more than Yimi García.

The Angels are 9-3 since the ASB (best in MLB—according to Sportsnet radio), so they’ve actually been playing well of late.

Great job by Mayza too. I’m guessing the day off helped the bullpen recharge.

The Angels won 8 games against the Yankees, Pirates and Tigers.
Now, they have to play the Jays, Braves, Mariners, Giants, Astros, Rangers, Rays and Reds before they get a break against the Mets.

any reason not to give schneider a shot in left? he's got a.952 OPS in buffalo and is leading the team in HRs.

If they weren't looking for relief help before, they are now.

Seeing Romano struggle makes me wonder why he was brought into the game. If he isn’t fully healthy, it would have been better to bring in Garcia to pitch the ninth, and let Romano continue to rehab his injury.

Saw what happened to Romano, But why did Stefanic pinch hit for Ohtani?

yesterday in Detroit, Ohtani was removed from the game after hitting his 2nd homer. seemed to tweak his hip or back.

back has been jacked up since yesterday. he was wincing in the first game, and got pulled after his second dinger. sucks for them. their manager was really heated after the game because the guy he had pinch hit looked at a borderline pitch. like...these kinds of calls burn the jays more often than not, but we don't see our managed showing any emotion half the time when that calls are twice as bad.

Ohtani had cramps in both legs.

Romano should probably get an IL stint. He’s likely still not right from the issue he had from the All Star Game. With the trade deadline coming up and Green on his way back, there might be enough cover for him being our short term.

I’m very curious what the Jays do with Varsho. He’s been one of the worst offensive regulars in baseball this season, and it’s the one position the Jays can make a clear upgrade. Whether it’s moving Merrifield to LF and getting a 2B, or getting a LF, I think it’s time to actually do something. I suspect Schneider is getting traded at the deadline otherwise I’m baffled why he’s not up yet.

Jays caught a break having Ohtani needing to leave the game. Big break as right now he is doing it all for that team, at this point they need to look at having him play defense as well, see how much they can ride that horse until he breaks and let someone else pay for years of rehab.

Still wouldn't stop me from bidding up the wazoo for him if I ran the Jays - he'd be damn nice at DH/P with Ryu, Belt, Chapman, Merrifield, KK, and Cimber all free agents ($53.95 million combined or roughly what one expects Ohtani to get paid per year in his next contract - he'd replace 2 of those guys, then the Jays need to figure out the rest). KK replaced by Varsho moving to CF, Cimber already irrelevant, Chapman by Barger/Martinez/Rafael Lantigua/Tanner Morris/etc. Barger is in the mix for LF too as is Horwitz. It'll be an interesting winter - hopefully as a follow up to an amazing post-season of course.

Doh should've added Schneider into that mix for 3B and LF too. His current AAA line of 269/411/541 suggests he is ready. Looks like 2B has been his main position in the minors but getting a lot of LF time too. With him up you could put either him or Merrifield at 2B every game and the other in LF when a LH pitcher is on the mound. Biggio mixed in as needed. Espinal nothing more than a late inning defensive replacement/pinch runner.

Whether it’s Lane Thomas or Tommy Pham or someone else, the Jays need to acquire someone who can take PA away from Varsho against LHP. As mentioned, adding another outfielder would also allow the Jays to spell Springer a bit more, which could help GS’s production.

It would be interesting to know which position players the Jays are targeting, that is, which players the front office most believes in (as opposed to the most-hyped players at the moment).

Nice win.

As much a I would like to see someone like Davis Schneider have a go, what's the chance he'll play? The manager seems completely unwilling to use the last man on his bench. I get that the heart of a playoff race is not the best place to break in rookies, but it's a long season. There's surely got be some place to try people out, otherwise your farm system is pointless beyond trade bait.

Thing is both Pham and Thomas have hit RHP better than Varsho. In fact Varsho is doing worse vs RHP than LHP. As good as Varsho is on D and the basepaths, might just be best to make him the 4th OF/ late inning defensive replacement and get a full time LF, be it Pham, Thomas or someone else..

Yankees and O's scoreless into the 9th.

oh, the 8th inning has a bottom half.

He should be called up to start. Time to stop penciling Varsho in everyday and it would also be good to have an idea of what to do post Kiermaier.

probably not first time here? too bad there was no-one on first actually last night

On First Looking into Chapman's Homer .... By John Keats

Much have I travell'd in the realms of gold, And many goodly states and kingdoms seen; Round many western islands have I been Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold. Oft of one wide expanse had I been told That deep-brow'd Homer ruled as his demesne; Yet did I never breathe its pure serene Till I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold: Then felt I like some watcher of the skies When a new planet swims into his ken; Or like stout Cortez when with eagle eyes He star'd at the Pacific—and all his men Look'd at each other with a wild surmise— Silent, upon a peak in Darien.

Italics? Begone.

Those in the media who called the CWS to be big sellers were spot on. L Lynn & J Kelly to LAD and K Graveman to Houston.

over-the-top production, like Hollywood movies.

How about an an Italian movie
Cue Hugo Montenegro

Rank of 181 qualified, July wRC+

#1 Triston Casas 252
#4 Cody Bellinger 217
#14 Shohei Ohtani 184
#15 Whit Merrifield 182
#131 Tim Anderson 82
#141 Lane Thomas 70
#163 Teoscar Hernandez 44
#177 Lourdes Gurriel 21
#181 Daulton Varsho -1

spaghetti westerns!

I know the Jays have important series coming up but I think putting Romano on the DL would be something to think about.

So as I posted last night, it's not an OF we need to spell Varsho vs lefties, it's an everyday OF we need.

So can Cody Bellinger play LF? He hasn't really since 2017. But I'm thinking "who cares?", we've lived through Steve Pearce and Chris Collabello.

What the Yankees do will be interesting - in 2016 the team very smartly pivoted to selling at the deadline and if they lose this series to the O's that might be the case once again.

I wonder what Juan Soto & Josh Hader would cost if the Padres decide to sell? Give the money plus that Vlad might have got to Soto.Padres expect to contend next year, I wonder if the Jays/Padres would be interested in constructing a deal centered around Vlad (extra year of control) for Soto/Hader.

It's a good point about needing an everyday outfielder. At this point, I think the Jays should add an outfielder who can capably start and then slot Varsho in as the fourth outfielder and late-inning defensive replacement. If Varsho ends up earning more playing time, so much the better.

As for Bellinger, are the Cubs even sellers at this point?

Was about to post the same thing greenfrog.  Yeah they've won 9 of 10 and are only  4 1/2 out of the Central lead and 3 1/2 out of the WC.

Bellinger would slot in well in the Yankees outfield, one not exactly teeming with healthy/productive players.

So far practically no OFs have been traded. Lots of relievers.

So far this year, best offensive lineups...

vRHP

* DH Belt 128
* SS Bichette 121
* 3B Chapman 120
* 2B Merrifield 119
* C Jansen 118
* 1B Guerrero 116
* CF Kiermaier 113
* LF Biggio 104
* RF Springer 103

* C Kirk 91
* IF Espinal 82
* OF Varsho 69


vLHP

* SS Bichette 191
* 3B Chapman 163
* 1B Guerrero 137
* 2B Merrifield 114
* CF Kiermaier 114
* C Jansen 100
* RF Springer 90
* LF Varsho 85
* DH Kirk 84

* IF Espinal 63
* PH Belt 19
* OF Biggio -3

George Springer has 3 more seasons after 2023 - Oh Boy!

Thought I'd mention the incident last night where the camera caught Chapman swearing to Schneider's face in the bottom of the 1st, supposedly about the decision to pitch to Ohtani.

brings to mind Gibbons and Donaldson.

Was the incident symptomatic of a bigger problem (players not respecting the manager’s decisions)? I hope not.

"Swearing at him" seems a harsh description. Players swear most of the time.

That being said, i shudder to think of the reaction if one of our less white players did that.

So you're saying you believe the Jays are racist and you are a fan of a racist club?

In case the Jays are wondering how best to approach Ohtani this series, the O’s walked Judge three times in their game against the Yankees yesterday. The O’s won the game 1-0.

There is no rule that says you have to pitch to Ohtani—as Chapman effectively pointed out last night.

Saying the fans and media would certainly shit all over, say, vladdy if he did that.

And i agree that there's zero reason to pitch to Ohtani.

Absolutely agree about not pitching to Ohtani - I will never forgive Bobby Cox for allowing the only hitter of consequence, George Brett to beat the Jays in the 1985 playoffs - should have been the Jays 1st WS win.

Agreed G Brett, Reggie Jackson. They can beat you by themselves.

I'm a fan. I wouldn't. I'm sure that some racist fans would, but probably not even all of them, because just because a fan is a racist doesn't mean they don't hate Schneider as well. As for the media- what media?  Sportsnet? The Toronto Star? ESPN?

I'm glad you're so sure.

Atkins made big trades at the 2021 Trade Deadline. Berrios, Cimber and Richards. These were strong additions.

Berrios, Cimber and Richards in 2021.
Merrifield, Bass, Pop and White last year.

One thing all those guys have common?
There were all on the opening day roster.

BRef still has Varsho as the 6th best player on the team, ahead of Merrifield.
They could use a right bat at DH against lefties, but they will also need to rest some guys through the DH slot which makes it moot.
Varsho certainly should hit at the bottom of the lineup. He could hit 9th when he's playing center.

"Years of control".

Today is Grateful Dead Day at Rogers Centre.

" We will get by. We will survive. "

Romano to IL, Pearson back up.

A key metric for Manoah today will be bases on balls (other than IBBs to Ohtani).

So Manoah is just gonna lob those juicy judge balls right down the middle at 93mph, eh? Can someone that’s good at scouting reassure me that’s actually a good and wise thing to do?

Very good first inning for Alek. He looks confident.

When Manoah hits a guy I feel confident he'll have a good game. Normally shows confidence to throw inside.

With Romano down, I wonder if SD would trade their closer at a reasonable price? Josh Hader is a free agent post 2023 so he should be traded and would make for a killer pen.

John Schneider should act more like Phil Nevin.

Has Moniak, a 1/1 draft pick, really resurrected his career? The OPS+ of 158 would give that impression, but this is a season largely built on sand. His BABIP is a ridiculous 440 and both his BB and K rates are awful, as they have always been. He is hitting for power with an ISO of 270, so that's an unqualified positive. He will continue to get tons of playing time for the Angels, but it's not clear what exactly he'll become.

76 pitches through 4 IP for Detmers. The high pitch count may help the Jays offense break through in the second half of the game.

scary HBP. hope Ward will be OK.

I would not like to be a left handed hitter facing Genesis Cabrera. Hard and wild.

Springer should watch some teacherman hitting YouTube videos.

Chad Green pitched an inning today for Dunedin, three K's. It was his third appearance. I think he is ready for AAA at least.

Honestly just trade for Verlander and move Monah to the back of the bullpen for the rest of the year.

With Ryu and Green ready to be added to the roster, two pitchers will have to be dropped. Jackson and Pearson have options, will the Jays drop them?

Mitch White could be on the bubble, the Jays could trade him to a team that has traded a lot of their pitchers ..... White Sox.

I find myself complaining about the umping far too frequently. Andy Fletcher has been awful.

I'm still a bit surprised about getting cabrera for free.

He had a rough time last year but this year was just poor, not awful....good enough that just a handful of good innings with us has him up above positive in pretty much every category on the season now, with obvious upside left to tap.

"I find myself complaining about the umping far too frequently."

I'm not entirely sure that the umps havent gotten together and decided they don't want to be responsible for calling balls and strikes anymore and have decided to force the league to use robo umps.

It’s really nice to see the offense being carried today by the guys who have struggled this year.

Time to get going, George.

Ah well. At least he avoided the double play.

Stars in this city walk on water until they don’t. Vlad is a star, Chapman is a guy headed to free agency. The media “in this city” would almost certainly not have shown it - AppleTV covered it but I doubt Sportsnet would have shown this interaction since it is owned by the company that owns the team and it isn’t the best look for their product. Toronto media always bring out the gossip only once someone is on the way out or already done. Look at how quickly the cult of Kyle Dubas disbanded- that’s just a recent example that comes immediately to mind.

A resurgent Kirk would mean so much to this offence with Guerrero still scuffling and Springer just plain lost.

It seems reasonable to assume there were issues with “fit”. The Cards have often traded malcontents - Rasmus, for example. It appears to be one of the ways they remain a top tier organization without top tier finance. Go look at a thread about Tyler O’Neil - no one believes he can stay healthy because they think he cares more about staying swole. They know his value is low now, so they want to see him traded in the off-season and just hope he rebuilds value between now and then. Imagine Jays fans taking anywhere close to that clear-eyes view on Vlad or Leafs fans having the ability to assess players at all. The city might actually have some banners in those barns.

Removing Espinal for Varsho is interesting. Schneider obviously thinks the gap between Merrifield and Varsho in LF is greater than Merrifield and Espinal at 2B, but personally I’d rather have the better 2B up 5 runs and keep the guy with a big HR in the game.

"Imagine Jays fans taking anywhere close to that clear-eyes view on Vlad or Leafs fans having the ability to assess players at all. The city might actually have some banners in those barns."

Yes, because the fans make the front office decisions.

After all, championships are a crapshoot anyway, so why not?

With Genesis, I wonder how many of his issues came with Contreras catching. Pitchers hated him catching so much Contreras was removed from catching for a while earlier this year.

<br>Time to get going, George.


I am starting to get a bit worried...
His #s vs specific pitch types. He has mostly destroyed fastballs and this year is not. He has had 1 previous year that was barely negative.
He normally does ok vs sliders but is getting completely fooled. That happened once before and he recovered.
Most of his damage seems to be vs curveballs. I haven't watched enough games if his bat is slow, but I'd be tempted to interpret stuff that way.

His hard hit is down ut so is his soft hit. His medium hard hits are an all time high over 50%

His launch angle is down. His flyballs are down, his pulled balls are down, his hr/fb% is down. Not turning on enough pitches to pull over the wall?
The hr/fb is career low and half what it's been over the past few years.

But... his statscast expected results are the same as last year ( he over performed). So... is that stadium effect? Haven't looked at home-road splits yet.

I don’t even remember the first few months of my first borns life I was that tired. It doesn’t surprise me that Kirk had a slow start.

People keep bringing up baby narratives with Kirk. Except there's no way Kirk was dragging the baby along on road trips. He's been fine at home 124 wRC+ before today. His big struggles have been on the road. Kirk on the road is at 61 wRC+.

And bam, with one big game Kirk is right back smack at league average hitting again.

Imagine he put together a couple hot weeks.

While I fully understand and don't disagree with the Angels decision to keep Ohtani and go for it, they're doomed.

I'm not a good one to talk about the first few months - mine were insane as my wife died in childbirth so the next few months, heck years, were nuts. Safe to say Kirk though has had a lot of distractions. If he really is back now then things could go nuts for the Jays - get Kirk going with Jansen already hitting and the C/DH slot when a LHP is on the mound will be set beautifully. RHP you'll still see Belt at DH. The big question then is LF - what to do about Varsho - not hitting but his fielding is amazing. A solid RH hitting LF so you can rotate Varsho & KK in CF most days with the odd day in LF for Varsho could work. Or you get a solid 2B so Merrifield is that solid LF who is out there most of the time instead. Espinal/Biggio is a decent 2B combo but not the 'wow' the Jays want. The question now is who do the Jays get?

If an OF: Lane Thomas is my #1 choice (RH 124 OPS+ this year, 111 lifetime, team control through 2025, 27 years old this year (turns 28 in late August), solid defense at all 3 OF positions, can play 2B too - with Washington (dead last in NL East). Given his history he wouldn't be a bench problem (ie: complain about games off) and could fill in LF in 2024 if KK isn't resigned and Varsho is CF full time and the kids aren't ready.

RP: Lots of options (a few in St Louis, SD LH Josh Hader is a free agent post 2023 so might be good esp mixed with Romano as twin closers)

SP: No one affordable imo. Teams want 2 arms and 2 legs for a decent one, and will get it.

My gut still says a RH hitting OF will be it. Our pens big 5 are set, Jackson, Cabrera both have been sweet so far and cheap, Pearson has his moments good and bad. That gives you a good 8 man pen. Green will be here very shortly so unless it is a lock down closer type to allow Romano more breaks I don't see the point in trading for a solid middle man when we have so many already. Not to mention Francis of course (or Pop or Cimber or Hatch or whoever else is hanging around still).

The next few days will be interesting. I'm thinking the Angels are starting to wonder if they made a mistake going for it instead of selling, especially if the Jays win Sunday.

Do I need to pull quotes from execs in this city afraid to move players because of media and fan backlash?

What does “championships are crapshoots” mean to you? Better teams win more often in the mlb. Even post wild card. So it isn’t at all a random spread.

Yeah, pull some quotes.

In Toronto it depends on fan support - the Leafs have proven they can put out a non-competitive team and fill the arena every game (see the Ballard years when he cut the budget so much they couldn't scout players outside of Ontario for the draft, they fought for last place year in year out, and the arena was packed with sky high TV ratings). The Jays don't have that luxury, nor do the Raptors. Jays play 500 or less and the park gets half the crowds and worse in TV ratings, but win 90+ and the park is full and ratings are through the roof (higher than any other ML team). Raptors are like the Jays - suck and no one comes, win and everyone watches and comes.

Yeah, in some ways it is thought of a bad thing to have fair weather fans and bandwagon jumpers. But in terms of aligning the interest of the owners and fans it is great that we have that, as clearly there is real ROI on making sure to put a competitive/good team on the field.

Scherzer to the Rangers

Wow, what a bold move. They know the value of winning the division.

The leafs talk is dumb. The leafs have been an automatic elite top 5 team for years now and will be again this year and for years to come. Even then, they get shit on constantly as a disaster.

Jays have been barely a borderline top 10 team for longer and their front office has been tenderley loved and massaged non stop.

It looks like there's a chance the Jays might, if they don't screw it up, finally jump up into a leafsian top-5 stratosphere this year for the first time under this management.


Jays have been given non stop love for being a significantly worse team than the leafs, who have received a nonstop avalanche of shit over this entire era.

Rays get crushed.  Red Sox get walked off. 3 back of Tampa, 2 1/2 up on Red Sox.

Ferguson told his senior staff that “we’d get killed for trading the gold medal goalie“

That’s enough for me to conclude that front offices manage based on fans expectations and understanding. Otherwise we’d see more trades like Gillick made for Alomar. Virtually everyone in here will recall fans reacting on the radio to that trade and the papers iirc hated the trade for the most part. Only the Bill James set vocalized that they thought the padres were crazy.

My experience as a Toronto fan is the opposite. By far the most common criticism is for fans to rip on the team's best player while ignoring other flaws throughout the roster

uglyone - guess you are a LOT younger than me. I grew up when the Leafs making the playoffs was a major source of 'yahoo', they were front page in the papers nearly everyday it seemed win or lose. They put a kid in charge as GM to save money and no one cared. The arena was packed and TV was a must watch every game. Today the Leafs aren't close to a top 5 team IMO - a top 5 team doesn't make the 2nd round only once in 18 years (my kid who graduated high school has seen the Leafs make round 2 once in her lifetime - luckily she is a Jets fan thanks to her grandparents) who have made round 2 twice in that time frame, despite only being the Jets since 2011-12. Hockey playoffs aren't as random as baseball is. A 7 game hockey series is like a 14 game one in baseball and ALL rounds are 7 games.

Yeah, the Leafs get TONS of whining and complaining from fans. They ALWAYS have. I guarantee if they win the cup (haven't in my 54 years) that the fans will still complain about poor offseason moves and that they'll never see another cup (entirely possible - if they win one that they won't win another in 50+ years).

Trust me, if the Leafs put a team on the ice using players from a local high school they'd still pack the arena, get great TV ratings, and sell tons of merch. The only reason the owners are pushing the team to win more is that playoff revenue is massive and I suspect other secondary revenue streams are also.

The Jays meanwhile made the ALCS twice since 2004, have been a 90+ win team in 2021 and 2022 and on pace for it again in 2023. Something they only did in the glory years from 1991-1993. MLB playoffs are still harder to reach than NHL playoffs - 12 teams vs 16.

As to overall ranks... Jays 8th overall in MLB in 2022, 9th in 2021, 11th in 2020. Leafs by points tied 4th in 2022/3, 4th in 2021/2, tied for 5th in 2020/1, tied for 11th in 2019/20, tied for 7th in 2018/19, tied for 6th in 2017/18, 13th in 2016/17, dead last in 2015/16.

As I said though, regular season in hockey is a joke. If you don't make the playoffs you are a joke, if you and get knocked out round one you are only a bit better than a joke and that has been the Leafs in all but 1 season since we lost a full season a long long time ago.

Oh that massive trade. I still have the Sun from the day of it - buried deep in my storage or I'd get it out and post what they said that day. As I recall though it was mostly excitement as many felt the Jays were getting stale due to 'culture' and needed a change and Joe Carter for some reason was seen as a winner (he wasn't at the time, all his playoff games were as a Blue Jay). I was super-excited about Alomar (age, skills, bloodline) even though I hated losing Fernandez and having Olerud ready to take over 1B was a great thing (I still thought he might be an Ohtani at the time but the Jays never did give him a shot at pitching). Mix in Ducey/Hill/Whiten/Derek Bell all in the wings to take over an OF slot and it was a fun time. Sure didn't think Devon White would work out but I was very wrong.

The Leafs too often have been caught up in what fans want for some reason, but refused to with Wayne Gretzky who wanted to play as a Leaf but they wouldn't sign him (sigh). Smart GM's don't care what fans think, only what is best for the team (worst here was 1977 when a deal of Bill Singer for Ron Guidry was on the table but Gillick wasn't allowed to do it as they wanted a 'name' for opening day - Singer was a 2 time All-Star and 2 time 20 game winner but was in what would be his final season, Guidry had just 31 2/3 IP in the majors with a 4.55 ERA at the time but would end with 47.8 WAR and would've been the first star for the Jays had he been acquired).

I’ll be curious to see how this trade pans out for the Rangers. This version of Scherzer is a mere shadow of his former self - interesting to see whether Father Time has entered the chat.

Here is the Star's front page the day of the trade...


Hopefully it works for everyone. Try to view image to see it full sized. Dave Perkins, a main writer for the Star then, said "The Jays simply will be a better team for this trade".

Wonder what an equivalent trade today would be? Vlad & Bo for who? How could you find 2 players to replace those 2 in a deal? Who knows? Fun mental exercise.

Love you John but the leafs have the 3rd best record in hockey since Matthews was drafted. They're probably the #1 or #2 team in hockey heading into the year. The fact that everyone treats them like a disaster is the perfect opposite of the jays, who can barely crack the top 10 in any given year but get treated with baby gloves.

P.s. the leafs are a younger team than the jays, and the leafs last 2 GMs have been fired after 3 and 5yrs respectively - 2 leafs gms fired for being a top 5 team since Shapitkins has taken over the consistently bubble jays.

interesting - i guess i remember the radio reaction being much more muted/opposed.

I looked up the globe's coverage from the same day and it's basically the same quotes from gillick about fixing the chemistry in the clubhouse, but the tone is much the same: it was a fair 2 for 2.

i think the trade difficulty is upped by what i saw called the symmetry of the original. the cumulative age of the players in the deal was 55 to SD and 54 to TOR, years of control was 5 on both sides...it's definitely an interesting one to think about even if the likelihood of a repeat is low. kind of ironic that when i think of teams that would be a 'fit' - it would be the padres again...except guys like Tatis are locked up until some time next decade.

Cabrera has been great.

Garcia had a very good outing striking out Othani with the slider brushing both corners, one after the other.

Bold statement from Keats.

The Mets are paying about 37M of Max Scherzer contract to land Luisangel Acuna - that's a high price.

An observation:

If a player / manager / coach is ejected for arguing balls and strikes, it is logical to proceed to ham-it-up. In other words, assert who is the real star of the show and overshadow that umpire. Pete Walker was recently tossed by an ump who was actively looking for trouble, which deserves to be reciprocated.

The tendency is getting into the umpire's face, but maintaining a physical distance is important. So, instead of hollering, how about walking over to home plate and using hand gestures to indicate the bounds of the strike-zone? The umpires use hand signals, after all, and the body language makes things very clear to any spectator. Avoid the shouting, just show-up those awful umps in silence.

Much easier said than done in the heat of the moment.

Leafs are a regular season team only. In hockey that is a massive insult. How the GM hasn't figured out how to get a team built to win in the playoffs is beyond me. Yes, some bad luck but since Matthews started in 2016-17 the Leafs in the playoffs are a poor 21-29, losing record every single year. Jays from 2016 to now are a bad 5-8 (winning record in 2016, no playoff wins since in 2 best of 3's). Difference is the Jays spent a chunk of that in rebuild mode. The Leafs are built for the long drag of a regular season, but the intensity of a 7 game series they aren't made for it seems. What is needed? Not sure as I don't follow hockey like I did in the 80's when a team having playoff troubles would look to get better in the net and on defense (few could score ala the Oilers of Gretzky, Messier, Coffee, Kuri, etc.). The Jays in the 90's figured out it wasn't just building a regular season team that was needed but a playoff intensity team too - one with clear roles for everyone be it pinch hitter, pinch runner, whatever. Cito became well known for figuring out roles for everyone pre-playoffs and then executing those roles once it hit and getting everyone onside with what their roles were. Veteran benches, but sometimes he had kids on it too (Derek Bell & Ed Sprague had critical roles in 1992 for example as rookies).

Jays management treated with kid gloves. Wait, isn't there a nickname for Jays management that was so common and so disparaging it was banned on this site? Or maybe that is the kid gloves, some people getting sick and tired of the continual disparagement and banning the term. 

Jays are playing .593 in June and .636 in July. That is very good IMO.

Regarding trades with Ryu back pitching on Tue we are deep in SP depending on Ryu and Manoah going forward. I expect Green back after 2 more outings or maybe he does not need that. Romano on the IL for 2 weeks so the pen is not at full strength.

But overall we have surplus pitching if that is something that can ever be said in baseball!!Especially if you are contending. I usually say that Miami has surplus pitching because the ML team is doing well in that area and their farm is deep in pitching. But Miami is contending. If either Miami or Toronto trade pitching this deadline I would not be too surprised.

As for the Leafs, they are very similar to what the Yankees have been lately. Yankees have made the playoffs 6 straight seasons, but have lost in the playoffs each time. A sizable portion of their fanbase doesn't care they have been provided solid entertainment for over half a year each time. They only care they didn't win the WS, because they don't have that to throw in other peoples faces.

Note: Varsho hitting 9th today. Good spot for him. I like that Schneider moves players around a little in the order. However, this move did seem long overdue.

Berrios hasn’t been his best today. The Angels have threatened in each inning so far. Runners in SP each inning. Five hits and a walk through 3.
Fingers crossed for a couple quick ones.

Meanwhile, the Jays threatened in the first but zilch since

The Cubs have taken Bellinger off the trading block.

Berríos battles through.

Leave Varsho in the 9 hole for now and see if he can cook.

It might be as good for his mental approach as hitting him in the 4 and 5 holes was bad for it.

I have been noticing that since the all star break Vladdy has been swinging at fewer balls.

Agreed E-C. He’s looked much better.

George looked pretty good in his first 3AB. No results to show for it, but he hit 3 balls hard. Hopefully a sign of things to come.

I'd be tempted to batt Belt instead of Varsho in the 9th.

Robot. Umps. Now.

Today’s game was a microcosm of the Jays’ season (at least the part of it that hasn’t gone right). Very good starting pitching, mostly good relief pitching, close ballgame, horrible performance with RISP (2/16), bad umpiring.

Jordan Hicks incoming per sources.

Leo Jimenez pulled before the start of the NH game.

Coincidence?

Anything to move Garcia back in the leverage line.

With the addition of Genesis, Green and Hicks, the Jays have assembled a deep and diverse bullpen.

Now go get one more quality bat and the team should be well positioned for the home stretch and postseason.

Adam Kloffenstein going to the Cards, at least.

Sounds like the return is Kloffenstein

Hicks will be a free agent after this season so he is a rental.

Kloffenstein and Sem Robberse for Hicks...ouch.

If Green and Romano come back healthy and strong that is a championship caliber bullpen with Hicks added.

I would expect them to make another trade to boost the offense. The Padres won't trade Soto...what are Bauxites hoping for?

Is Soto definitely off the block? I would trade Tiedemann plus a couple
of lesser prospects for him.

Apparently Jimenez has a sore wrist, and was pulled due to that.

Romano insurance

The bullpen makeup is still somewhat problematic in that you have no one that can go 2-3 innings. And you can't go with six SP very long.

Hicks isn't really much better than Pearson imo. Controls issues keep him from being a true high-leverage guy and they overpaid with both Kloff and Robberse. Now they have 4 SP at AAA and only 2 SP at AA.

guy averages 101 on his fastball.

averages.

not sure if either of them are high leverage guys but cabrera and hicks sure upped the power in the pen.

squint enough and both kloff and robberse might be actual prospects but probably not.

Hicks’s control has been much better in June/July than in April/May.

Average fastball velo

* Hicks 101.0
* Pearson 98.1
* Romano 96.7
* Cabrera 95.9
* Garcia 95.9
* (Pop 95.9)
* (White 94.0)
* Swanson 93.7
* Mayza 93.3
* (Jackson 93.3)
* Richards 92.9

* (Cimber 85.3)



Also, Mitch White DFA'd.

anyone hear anything about Green's velo in rehab?

Hey, who said White would be elsewhere or DFA'd by Tuesday?  Spot on!

Green 94.1 to 94.9 MPH in rehab starts.

I'm torn, which means the price was probably right.

It's a high (I like Robberse conceptually, as a guy who has pitchability and is growing into strength) but not crazy price for a FA high-leverage reliever these days. The thing is, they had to address the late innings, and it's better to pay a little more to get the guy you want. The only other guy who has a decent chance of being dealt is Bednar, and I suspect that price would have been significantly higher.

Love this trade. We give up our 7th best prospect but the way I see it we now have an elite bullpen. I actually look forward now to our starters getting pulled which is saying something.


if this FO can somehow find a bat to fit in the top 4 of this line up then it's scary good. A hitter in the mold of Bellinger or Soto would be the ideal and I'd be happy to give up Tiedemann + + for someone like Soto. "Name your price" sort of thing.

It's interesting that this trade for Hicks happened hours after the Cubs removed Bellinger from the trade block. It also says something that Pearson wasn't part of the package for Hicks.

Richards went 3 innings a bunch of times this year. Why can't he be moved back into that role if needed?

Robberse looked like a prime trade candidate. They gave up a lot of value for Hicks, but it’s a sellers market and it’s very clear the Jays needed a bullpen upgrade.

When it comes to the trade deadline I always consider the job security of the GM. While the Jays are winning, with the much higher payroll approved by Rogers missing the playoffs would be bad for the team, and not good for the job security of the GM.

So, the GM is incented to play for today, because playoffs mean another year of a GM's pay, while missing the playoffs could mean he will be scouting in minor league towns next season for a lower salary.

Did he overpay for Hicks? I believe he did. There were many teams in for Hicks which pushed up the price, but you traded two starting pitcher possibilities for 20 something major league innings.

Market demand plus job insecurity made for a high price.

Take rumours with a grain of salt, but Rays, Yankees, Rangers, DBacks were all linked to Hicks over the past week.  Hate losing Robberse, but the high price paid is in keeping with Atkins reputation for doing what it takes to get the guy he's targeting.

Did he overpay for Hicks? I believe he did. There were many teams in for Hicks which pushed up the price, but you traded two starting pitcher possibilities for 20 something major league innings. He also traded two guys who needed to be added to the 40-man roster this winter. Kloffenstein in particular is a hard unlikely add considering that he's repeating AA and this is the first season in forever wherein he hasn't been terrible. So they traded 1 prospect and 1 guy they likely wouldn't have 40-manned regardless, for debatably the best reliever available on the market.

Hicks has been one of the best reliever in baseball since mid April. He is an obvious upgrade, I think the rotation is fine.

I also think they still need to find some value for White. Some rebuilding club clearly will use him for the rest of the year in their rotation.

So when Ryu is activated on Tuesday I assume Pearson goes back to AAA.

Who gets it when Green comes back? Jackson?

Unless there is another trade, or an injury.

If García didn’t meet his vesting option I would have gave him the DFA.

I don't mind losing Kloffenstein but I hate to see Robberse leave. On the other hand, there are so many prospects traded that never amount to anything and there is an immediate need for Hicks as demonstrated by the game today.

So who is the closer when Romano comes back?

I assume it will still be Romano but Hicks will push him.

The reckless fire balled is something Pete Walker has had success with in the long run, aka Ray and Kikuchi.

I will go out on a limb and say that Hicks will not supplant Romano.

Hicks may well supplant Swanson.

I think Green will probably supplant Swanson as the RH high lev setup guy.

Leaving Swanson, Hicks, Richards, Cabrera, Garcia, Ryu/Kikuchi fighing over the middle relief slots.

Basically...the bullpen looks pretty darn good now.

Cábrea also has an option left.

My guess (not factoring in lefty/righty matchups) is that Green eventually gets the 6th inning, Hicks the 7th, Swanson the 8th, and Romano the 9th.

Atkins has traded a lot of prospects who haven’t really panned out: Martin, SWR, Groshans, Williams, Taylor, Castillo. (We’ll see about Frasso.) In the last few years the Jays have been good at turning lesser (or good-but-fading) prospects into useful MLB talent.

There is zero chance of Ryu in relief. They spoke about it on the latest McCown podcast. Ryu has a full day routine to prepare his body to pitch. I don’t know how you could use Ryu in the bullpen under those circumstances.

I'm sure Ryu would rather pitch out of the pen than not pitch at all.

I believe the Jays are going to add a bat before the deadline. You don’t go this far in constructing a postseason team, only to fail to make the last obvious needed move. The question is, how good will that player be?

just glad they didn't trade Ohashi.

For offensive help, Lane Thomas is my choice as most likely, with Soto as the dream but super unlikely.

Quality matters. If the Jays had acquired a better outfielder than Ben Revere at the 2015 trade deadline, they might have won the WS that year. The Jays need more than a RH warm body, they need someone who is actually a very good player — in my opinion.

They only need to go with 6 starters during the current stretch of 17 games without break.
That's too far ahead in the future to decide how to resolve the situation and they can add a reliever back in September.
Ideally, some starters will go deeper.

On the MLB roster, it's Mitch White for Jordan Hicks.

From CBS Sports:

"Hicks, 27 in September, has a 3.68 ERA in 41 2/3 innings this season, though he's been lights out since shifting to the first base side of the rubber a few weeks ago. He's held opposing hitters to a .210/.288/.238 batting line and zero home runs in 28 2/3 innings since May 1. A 100 mph sinker and the ability to limit homers never go out of style, especially come postseason time."

just glad they didn't trade Ohashi. 
I don't pick up some things well. Is this a running gag of yours. If it is, I get the joke.

From Ben Nicholson Smith:

With Angels & Cubs deciding to go for it, high-end trade candidates Ohtani & Bellinger are off the market & there's not a ton out there for teams seeking to upgrade their lineups. “No bats at all," one exec said.

I like the sell high on Kloff; his stuff isn't really any better, he's just learned to be more consistent. Hicks is a good pickup. Both Kloff and Sem are surprising for a 2-month reliever rental. I think Sem will likely end up the better of the two, since he still has time to fill out and works hard to always improve (and his underlying numbers are much better this year).

But I suppose that's the price you pay when you don't develop enough high-impact relievers internally.

The only 2 rentals bats on the market that are having a good season seem to be Pham and Grichuk. 

I know they are making a playoff push, but I wonder if the Bisons might make Davis Schneider available?  

The Bisons don't make players available. Like the Toronto Marlies they supply and provide players to the major league team on demand.

It was a joke. Wow.

Should have separated your two sentences by a period rather than separate paragraphs then.

My bad. I should have realized some posters don't regularly read the minor league threads.

Gotta love the silly time of trade deadline. Rumors all over of course, but with few teams really out of it (KC, Oakland, ChiSox, Detroit in AL; St Louis, Washington, Colorado in NL are all 10+ out of wild card, Detroit 6 1/2 back of AL Central; SD, Pittsburgh, Mets are sub 500 which is contending only in the AL Central).

For AL Central teams Twins & Cleveland I wonder if they will do anything - Twins leading, Cleveland 1/2 a game out, but combined they are 1 game over 500. Odds are whoever wins will be cannon fodder in the playoffs but who knows? A small push could get them in and the 2006 Cardinals won it all with a regular season of 83-78 (might be more than enough for the AL Central this year) after all, Mets made it to the WS in 1973 with a 82-79 record too.

No question the only thing left is for the Jays to get an OF with power, ideally better than ex-Jays Teoscar, Gurriel, or Grichuk. Soto cost SD Robert Hassell (top 50 prospect then), Jarlin Susana (18 year old flamethrower), James Wood (2nd round pick, now a top 20), CJ Abrams (SS with a 77 OPS+ at the time, top 10 prospect), MacKenzie Gore (84 ERA+ in majors, top 100 prospect) and Luke Voit (112 OPS+ DH/1B) last year, and appear willing to deal him this year - the Jays don't have half that kind of prospect power though - any deal would start with Tiedemann, Barger, Barriera and more and I'd be tempted - you would get rest of 2023 and 2024 plus first shot at signing Soto long term (158 OPS+ this year 157 lifetime). Him, Vlad, Bo, as a big 3 would scare the crap out of pitchers to put it mildly. Varsho & KK would share CF then. Post 2024 the Jays would have a LOT of tough choices financially then with Vlad, Bo, and Soto all free agents plus no minor leaguers left if they did the deal. It'd be 2015 all over again - pushing in all the chips.

As to the Hicks trade - caught me off guard. I didn't think the Jays would give up 2 AA starting pitchers for a relief rental, but there you go. Both pitchers pre-2023 didn't have much value, Sem Robberse doesn't have ML velocity, Adam Kloffenstein seems to be a perpetual project (his 10.6 K/9 sounds good but the Fisher Cats have 10.4 K/9 as a team, Eastern League as a whole is at 9.6). So it makes sense to me in the end.

This little story came to mind:

" In the early 1970s, the [Hawaii] Islanders were the closest thing to an independent team in the high minors. While standard minor league working agreements in recent times require a minor league team to cede complete control of its roster to its major league parent, the Islanders' early deals with the San Diego Padres typically called for the Padres to send only about six players to Hawaii. The Islanders then signed players on their own to fill most of the roster spots, and were free to trade, sell or release them without approval from San Diego. This worked very well for the Islanders, as they won consecutive PCL titles in *1975 and *1976. "

*lead by manager Roy Hartsfield

The Blue Jays players are fired up about the Hicks trade (some quotes are on Sportsnet). This shows that summer deadline trades have at least two purposes: upgrade the roster and improve team morale.

Two available bats, Grichuk and CJ Cron are on their way to the Angels.

I big thumbs up on the Jordan Hicks trade for me - steep price but quality hard throwing pens have been dominant in the postseason and can really deflate the opposition. It was reported that the Cardinals & Hicks had talks about a contract extension that failed - I'm hoping if his stint in Toronto goes well the Jays can entice him to stay longer.

I've criticised FO in the past for holding on to pedigreed prospects too long and getting nothing in return - can't say that about the present FO , they may not be great at drafting and developing but they having been aggressive in using prospective capital effectively - Martin/Hoglund/Groshans/Kloff - all high picks that they moved before the shine is completely off - Kudos.

The Blue Jays got lucky in the WC race today, in that Boston and Houston both lost and Baltimore is beating the NYY 9-3 at the moment.

Time for the Jays to start making their own luck by winning winnable games like the one they played today.

Padres just swept the Rangers. FG has their playoff odds at almost 40% despite their record because of the strength of their team. In other words, can't see Soto or Hader going anywhere but Colorado with the rest of the Padres.

After this weekend it just makes sense the Angels would do something. Safe to say 28 other teams saw how the Jays kept Ohtani in control by using the Bonds treatment - you have a chance to change the game, you walk. Period. Cost them 2 pitchers - Jake Madden (4th round last year, 5.46 ERA in A ball), and Mason Albright (12 round 2021, 3.62 ERA in A ball this year). Both meh imo. Of course, Cron is a sub 100 OPS+ 1B and Grichuk is who he is (despite his 123 OPS+ this year).

Wow! the Rockies doing something sensible and actually selling at the deadline - maybe Hell is freezing over!

Yeah, Soto wasn't a realistic target, just a fun thought thing. Basically he'd cost every prospect of any value left in the system and I don't see our GM doing that unless he was told the team can have a NY Mets budget in 2024 and beyond.

If they can have a slight increase then I'd go for Ohtani hard this winter ($54 mil coming off the books) and hope the kids can fill 3B/LF, and Espinal/Biggio cover 2B.

Guessing the Angels are paying the salaries of Grichuk and Cron, given the underwhelming return for the Rockies.

Madden was 4th round, but got the exact same bonus the Jays gave Kasevich with pick 60. FG had him #7 on the Angels list grade 40+. Seems a longer term project with decent ceiling.

Nope - latest is the Angels are getting some cash to help pay their salaries. So the Rockies get very little out of that deal, but at least they are trying.

Lane Thomas does seem like a good fit in the circumstances. He hits lefties well (182 wRC+ career and 145 wRC+ this year). He's fast (94th percentile sprint speed) and he has good arm strength (95th percentile). He's experienced but not too old (almost 28), he's having a good season, and he's controllable through 2025. He would be a good player to use in the bottom half of the lineup against LHP.

He seems like the most realistic good trade target for the Jays. I imagine the asking price for him is high.

Taylor Ward has been placed on the 60-day IL. Wishing him the best for a full recovery from that devastating HBP. He was having a very fine season before that happened.

I think the Rockies did well. Albright was 12th round, but a prep pitcher who got over $1.2 million bonus and is doing OK in the hitter-friendly Cal League as a 20 yr old.

My guess would be that Thomas is just a half season babip fluke that's probably already run out of steam, but as a lefty masher only he might work.

Rental Tommy Pham would likely cost much less.

Agreed that it would be better if the Jays acquired a more complete hitter than Thomas. Not sure how many PA he would end up having against LHP over the rest of the season, although it would be nice to use him against some of the tough lefties in the AL.

I would probably prefer Thomas (LF) and Merrifield (2B) in the lineup against those LHPs, compared to the Jays current options at those positions (like Merrifield in LF and Espinal at 2B).

I think the price is fair, mid level pitching prospects are interchangeable. Unlikely one or both of them make the majors. It's also not like they have great stuff or great results. Think this is the exact type of trade we need to make to make a push.

Bats were far cheaper than pitchers at the deadline in the past. I remember when 165 OPS+ J. D. Martinez was traded for a puny package headlined by Dawel Lugo. Between the amount of teams still in the hunt and out-of-it teams like Oakland and KC having nothing to trade, it's put the Jays in a tough spot.

Pham would be a good fit. I think offensively he fits exactly what the Jays need. He can mash LHP and isn't bad against RHP either. He would give the team a much more well rounded offense. In previous years Atkins has prioritized control by getting players with at least another year of control left (Berrios, Merrifield, etc) but they acquired Hicks as a rental so maybe he's opening up to rentals a bit more.

There just aren’t many teams in selling mode, especially with LAA and SD and CHC hanging around the margins of WC contention. With an extreme shortage of available bats and the Jays rotation in good shape and asking prices high, it makes sense that the team would bid aggressively for a high-end bullpen rental like Hicks.

I still think they’ll add a bat, though.

Tommy Pham does look like a good fit, only signed for this year, fairly cheap ($6 mil), Mets are clearing house right now, vs LHP has hit 255/339/532 this year. All depends on what the Mets want, and what the price is for guys with more control like Lane Thomas (364/410/643 vs LHP this year) are costing (with way out of it Washington). Another consideration for the bad teams is how bad do they want to be? Get rid of your good players and fight for that top draft pick (better slot in lottery, more cash to spend in each round), or try to give your fans something to cheer for in 2023 even if it isn't much.

I'm sure the Jays have a set of prospects they are willing to give up and some they won't for less than a star.

The other oddity is I keep reading the Jays are after starting pitching which seems odd given there will be 6 starters here shortly. But of those 6 who gets the 4 playoff slots? Gausman is obvious, Berrios has had a very good year, but Bassitt has been up and down, Kikuchi no one trusts, Manoah has yet to regain the faith we had in him last year, and Ryu is just coming back. So yeah, another top flight starter would be nice especially for the playoffs. Verlander is available, and pitching OK (128 ERA+ over 15 starts) but is owed $43 mil this year and next with a player option for 2025 at $35 mil if he gets 140 IP in 2024. If the Mets are trying to recover some payroll space he'd cost peanuts outside of the cash (which in theory the Jays can afford). You know he wants to be in the playoffs with his lifetime 16 wins and 3.64 ERA over 207 2/3 IP and 2 rings. Wonder what the Mets want for him? They ate over $20 mil of Scherzer's contract to get 1 prospect - Luisangel Acuña, ranked top 100 by just 1 service pre-season, in AA hitting 315/377/453 at SS/2B/CF/DH so a decent one. Again, like the Soto thing I doubt this will happen, but again, fun to imagine.

Realistic is a backup OF like Pham who is a free agent post 2023. I'd prefer a longer term solution but we'll see what happens.

Atkins is not going to trade for major league starting pitching.

He may be looking for a starting pitcher in one of the Indy leagues for New Hampshire.

July 2023 has been Tampa's worst month in 16 years.
They certainly could use a starting pitcher but I wouldn't want to play them in a best of 3.

Amazing pickup of Hicks, and for a small price. Trades are rarely as costly as people in here anticipate.

Hicks improves the jays. However Texas is the most improved it seems on paper.

There are practically no good hitters available. SD it seems have yet to decide if they are buyers or sellers. SD just swept Texas which is impressive. SD may make the playoffs but it is also important to be in the playoff race for the fans and revenue.

Seems like an awfully slow morning for trade movement.

There really isn’t much being offered.

Does anyone think there’s any chance they trade someone out of the rotation to try to line up a trade with another contender? Pitcher for bat? It’s the only way the rumours about them being after an SP make sense.

IMO, only Kikuchi, Ryu and Manoah would make sense in this kind of maneuver, with Kikuchi as the most likely outgoing piece.

There have been rumblings and reliable reporters have been sending out strong signals that the Blue Jays are working on something bigger. Execs in the game also reference the Jays as wanting something bigger. BUT that was all before the Angela, Cubs and Padres decided not to sell so...

Right now I can see another Merrifield type deal but bigger. Example, Manoah, Zulueta for Reynolds in PIT.

Too lazy to check the comments, so I will ask "did any Bauxites mention that the Jays were after Hicks?". How about the media did they mention the Jays and Hicks?

Reynolds is an interesting idea but I think his contract is too big to take on (runs through 2030). There is late-career Vernon Wells contract risk there.

Like the trade for Hicks. Don't see either guys Jays gave up as likely major leaguers and Romano's injury forced the team's hand. Hope the Jays get a hitter as well and would be fine trading prospects but would not like to overpay for a mediocre player. Like, don't trade prospects for someone who isn't better than one of the AAA guys they could call up.

"did any Bauxites mention that the Jays were after Hicks?". How about the media did they mention the Jays and Hicks?"

nope, and nope.

Reynolds is no longer playing CF for Pittsburgh so not as attractive - Happy that old friend Josh Palacios is getting a run in CF.

I wish I didn't get irritated by people throwing out blanket Dunning-Kruger statements trying to make themselves seem smarter than others.

If anyone is interested in Longo's take on the Cards return for Hicks, it's here.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-cardinals-taste-in-prospects-indicates-hope-for-a-quick-rebuild/

now i'm trying to figure out which of us posters' here takes are being 'corrected' by that longo article.

Robberse and Kloff are a bit like young versions of Thornton and White with all their options.
The Jays have Kikuchi for another year, Bassitt for 2, Gausman for 3 and Berrios for 5.
With Manoah as a solid floor for the 5th starter.
It seems like using guys that are expendable (and need to be rostered on the 40 this fall) to address their biggest hole. 

“blanket Dunning-Kruger statements”

Who is Dunning-Kruger, and how well does he hit LHP?

Longo's Robberse take seems a bit at odds with itself tbh.

he's describing a finesse pitcher with a distinct lack of velo (current or projectable), with middling results at best so far (albeit a touch young for his levels)......and projecting him as a safe MLB rotation arm ready to debut next season. Seems optimistic to me tbh.

He also ignored something that's probably important - a huge jump in HR for Robberse in AA, which is always something to worry about as a pitcher without velo moves up levels.

I don't follow prospects as closely as i used to but for all the handwringing about how weak our system is, it's surprising to hear that we had a "high probability back end of a contender ready to debut next year" arm in the 5-10 range in that weak system.

"he's describing a finesse pitcher with a distinct lack of velo (current or projectable), with middling results at best so far (albeit a touch young for his levels)......and projecting him as a safe MLB rotation arm ready to debut next season. Seems optimistic to me tbh."

For me too. Yeah, it's possible he can get better or find a way to get an extra 1-2 MPH and become viable but this version of Robberse certainly doesn't seem like a major leaguer. Also, I think age for level matters a lot more in hitters than pitchers.

Hopefully the Dodgers are the ones that land Verlander, because the Orioles need starting pitching and have a clean slate for payroll next year. He makes too much sense for them.

I've said this several times over the past year or two - I don't really understand the prospect love for Robberse. That isn't to say that there's no hope - he has excellent command and control of two pitches which is a pretty good starting point. It's just that neither of those two pitches is particularly good right now. Pitchers develop in unusual ways so he's interesting as a lotter ticket but that's about it. I think Kloff and Robberse about equal value in terms of likelihood of developing into something.

"Hopefully the Dodgers are the ones that land Verlander, because the Orioles need starting pitching and have a clean slate for payroll next year. He makes too much sense for them."

considering the typical Batters Box response to trading prospects at the deadline, I think most would look at Baltimore giving up quality youth for a 40+yr old pitcher to be a good thing.

"I wish I didn't get irritated by people throwing out blanket Dunning-Kruger statements trying to make themselves seem smarter than others."

Irony, love it.

The Dodgers may not want Verlander's salary potentially 2 more years if they are going after Ohtani in FA.

I liked both of the guys we traded as back rotation types, but I’m stoked about watching a kid hit well over 100

If the Yankees think they’re done I would trade Orlevis + for Gleyber Torres.

Hicks isn't really much better than Pearson imo.

Marc, Pearson is in the 5th percentile in average exit velocity and 3rd percentile in hard-hit percentage. He's in the 51st percentile in both barrel percentage and whiff percentage. Jordan Hicks is in the 92nd percentile in average exit velocity, 75th percentile in hard-hit percentage, 94th percentile in barrel percentage, and 82nd percentile in whiff percentage. There is a very significant difference between Pearson and Hicks, and it's that Hicks is incredibly difficult to square up, whereas Pearson is not at all. You want relievers that not only miss bats (which Hicks also does better than Pearson), but also don't give up hard contact. Hicks' only "wart" is the walk-rate, if he's anywhere near the zone he is elite even when he isn't striking guys out because it's a battle to do anything with the pitch even when you make contact.

After the Scherzer trade, Mets General Manager Billy Eppler told reporters," I do want to be clear that's it's not a rebuild. It's not a fire sale. It's not a liquidation. This is just a repurposing of (owner) Steve ( Cohen's) investment in the club, and kind of shifting that investment from the team into the organization."

Yeah, okay, Billy. Whatever.

Watched some of of the Bisons game last night. Horwitz looked OK in his 1 game per year at 2nd base. Barger is the closest we have to a Chapman arm at 3rd. Orelvis struck out a couple of times, once on a down and away slider that was his problem last year, but later got a pitch over the heart of the plate he smoked for the HR. 104 EV, 410 ft.

Been looking for Otto Lopez, but he's on the 7 day IL.  He's shown little power this year and his MO is soft contact the other way. But Gerry taught me how to access  Statcast about a week or so ago and I was shocked by Lopez exit velocities. His last 4 hits before going on the IL were 104, 105, 107 and 106. 

L-C is a sad Mets fan. and a Jets fan. New York Giants, not a fan.

I googled Dunning- Kruger effect. Interesting and I learned something. My mistake was interpreting "this" at our beloved Bauxites when clearly it was directed towards a handful of opposing teams FO/GMs.

My grammar seems wrong because ...

Batter's Box is a team. Sometimes team-mates disagree. L-C sticks up for every team-mate.

I just realized that part of Hicks poor numbers last year were because half of his innings came when they tried to convert him to a starter.

Hicks by year:

* 2018 (21): 73gms, 1.1ip/gm, 92era-, 94fip-, 105xfip-, 0.6war, 0.5war/65gms
* 2019 (22): 29gms, 1.0ip/gm, 75era-, 74fip-, 69xfip-, 0.6war, 1.2war/65gms
* 2020 (23): did not play

was looking ready to turn into an elite reliever when he went down for TJ surgery. missed the rest of the 2019 season and all of the shortened 2020 season.

* 2021 (24): 10gms, 1.0ip/gm, 134era-, 101fip-, 115xfip-, -0.1war, -0.3war/65gms

Came back to start the 2021 season but struggled and hurt his elbow again, went on the 60 day DL and didn't come back the rest of the year.

The next season, even after all the injuries, the Cards for some reason decided to try and turn him into a starter....and after 8 bad starts he was injured again, missed over a month, and when he came back they finally just kept him in the pen...though in a bit of a multi-inning role.

* 2022 as SP (25): 8gms, 3.3ip/gm, 141era-, 145fip-, 128xfip-, -0.1war, -0.4war/32gms
* 2022 as RP (25): 27gms, 1.3ip/gm, 113era-, 79fip-, 80xfip-, 0.3war, 0.7war/65gms

The ERA was still high as an RP but the underlying numbers were very good, and his ERA came down as the year went on.

This year they've gone back to using him exclusively as a 1-inning type reliever:

* 2023 (26): 40gms, 1.0ip/gm, 88era-, 71fip-, 74xfip-, 0.5war, 0.8war/65gms

The ERA is just good, not great, but the underlyings are legit excellent. Hopefully he's not forever a guy whose ERA lags his underlyings.

I won't dismiss his bad innings, but of some note is that he got off to a truly awful start this year before hammering it down and being mostly dominant since:

* 2023 1st 7gms: 7gms, 0.8ip/gm, 304era-, 235fip-, 157xfip-, -0.5war, -4.6war/65gms
* 2023 Since: 33gms, 1.1ip/gm, 54era-, 45fip-, 61xfip-, 1.1war, 2.1war/65gms

Now I don't know if there's any actual reason to pretend those first 7gms didn't happen and don't matter, but at least he's on an extended dominant streak at the moment.

One weird thing is that his fangraphs war numbers, both fip war and ra9 war, seem by my eyeball test to lag his actual performance numbers for some reason. usually that's the result of leverage, but that doesn't seem to explain it.

One thing I was worried about was that those first awful 7gms might have come in high leverage with the Cards trying to annoint him their closer....but that's not what happened - those first 7gms he was being used exclusively as a 7th/8th inning guy.

It seems like they decided to annoint him as the closer on June 17th, and he's been pretty much exclusively the 9th inning man since then:

* Since June 17th as "Closer": 13gms, 1.0ip/gm, 8/9svs, 48era-, 49fip-, 65xfip-, 0.4war, 2.0war/65gms

So he has handled the high leverage role very well so far.

When we got Genesis, brought up Contreras being removed from catching for a while in May because pitchers hated throwing to him.  Maybe that partially explains Hicks early struggles.

dalimon5, I'm assuming you thought my comment this morning was meant for you after our exchange last night,. It wasn't.

Not at all! All good from me.

Chris Black has a good Twitter thread (I refuse to call it X, Elmo) here if you are looking for reasons to be optimistic about the Hicks trade. the TLDR version, he has been one of the best relievers in MLB for the last 2.5 months.

Thank you for sharing that link Hodgie! That was really cool analysis.