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It's an AL East opponent. Gulp.


As we all know, the Blue Jays have gone a grisly 7-20 against the four teams in their own division. A little of that is bad luck - they've played six one-run games against division opponenets, and they've lost all six. But that sort of thing can easily happen in a tiny, tiny sample. They've still gone 7-14 in the rest of the games, and that's just bad. How and why?

Well, in those 27 games, the Blue Jays have scored 117 runs. That's 4.3 runs per game, which is slightly less than their season average. That doesn't look too alarming at first glance. After all, they probably shouldn't be scoring as many runs against the AL East as they do against the other divisions. They did, however, score 10 of those runs against a couple of Tampa Bay position players and if we eliminate those runs from the accounting they're averaging 3.96 runs per game, which is not so great.

	          Split	   G    PA   AB	   R    H  2B  3B  HR  RBI  SB	CS   BB	  SO   BAVG    OBP    SLG	OPS 																			 
Belt vs AL East 18 58 49 5 14 3 0 3 8 0 0 9 24 .286 .397 .531 .927
Jansen vs AL East 23 82 72 11 19 4 0 6 16 0 0 10 12 .264 .354 .569 .923
Bichette vs AL East 27 120 114 12 41 9 0 3 15 2 1 6 19 .360 .392 .518 .909
Guerrero vs AL East 26 110 100 9 27 5 0 5 22 1 0 7 22 .270 .327 .470 .797
Springer vs AL East 26 116 103 18 26 3 1 5 12 4 1 13 17 .252 .336 .447 .783
Merrifield vs AL East 24 91 85 10 24 7 0 1 6 3 2 6 17 .282 .330 .400 .730
Espinal vs AL East 12 29 24 2 6 2 0 0 2 1 1 4 1 .250 .379 .333 .713
Kirk vs AL East 22 73 64 5 17 3 0 0 6 0 0 8 6 .266 .356 .313 .669
Varsho vs AL East 26 106 97 12 22 3 0 4 10 5 1 8 18 .227 .283 .381 .664
Kiermaier vs AL East 22 87 82 13 20 3 0 1 2 5 0 4 17 .244 .276 .317 .593
Biggio vs AL East 17 37 35 6 6 1 0 2 2 0 1 2 10 .171 .216 .371 .588
Chapman vs AL East 27 116 105 10 20 4 0 3 7 2 0 10 34 .190 .259 .314 .573



But there have been even bigger problems than that. The Jays have allowed 140 runs in those 27 games, which is 5.18 per game and that's just asking for trouble. As is well known, when you ask for trouble, trouble generally answers your call. It's more than a run higher than their season average. Four pitchers in particular need to be singled out for their disappointing work. One, obviously, is Alek Manoah - 0-4, 6.34 in six starts speaks for itself. Strangely enough, Manoah's best start of the season came against an AL East opponent, when he spun seven innings of two-hit shutout against the Yankees. But the Jays lost that game, which provides a nice segue into the three pitchers who have really come up short in the division: Jordan Romano, Erik Swanson, and Yimi Garcia. Collectively, these three high leverage relievers have gone 1-8, 7.84 against AL East opponents.

	        Split	  W   L	    ERA	   G  GS  SV    IP     H    R   ER  HR   BB  SO	 HBP  BF   WHIP
																		
Hatch	   vs AL East	  0   0	   0.00	   2   0   0    1.1    1    0    0   0    1   2	  0    7   1.50
Mayza	   vs AL East	  0   0	   0.00	  13   0   0   10.1    8    0    0   0    2   8	  0   40   0.99
Pearson	   vs AL East	  0   0	   1.50	   8   0   0   12.     9    4    2   1    2  12	  1   47   0.92
Richards   vs AL East	  0   0	   2.19	   9   0   0   12.1   10    3    3   1    4  17	  0   51   1.14
White	   vs AL East	  0   0	   2.45	   2   0   0    3.2    3    1    1   0    0   3	  0   14   0.94
Berrios	   vs AL East	  3   2	   3.35	   6   6   0   37.2   34   14   14   7    6  36	  3  150   1.06
Gausman	   vs AL East	  1   1	   4.15	   5   5   0   30.1   29   15   14   2    6  36	  0  124   1.16
Bass	   vs AL East	  0   0	   4.26	   8   0   0    6.1    6    3    3   0    3   6	  0   28   1.42
Bassitt	   vs AL East	  0   2	   5.59	   3   3   0   16.1   21   14   10   6    3  16	  1   74   1.49
Kikuchi	   vs AL East	  2   3	   5.66	   7   7   0   35.    41   22   22   9   13  36	  1  157   1.54
Manoah	   vs AL East	  0   4	   6.14	   6   6   0   29.1   34   24   20   4   19  27	  3  142   1.81
Romano	   vs AL East	  1   3	   6.43	   8   0   3    7.    14    5    5   3    3   8	  0   38   2.43
Cimber	   vs AL East	  0   0	   6.75	   4   0   0    4.     7    3    3   1    2   0	  0   20   2.25
Thornton   vs AL East	  0   0	   6.75	   1   0   0    1.1    3    1    1   0    1   2	  0    8   3.00
Garcia	   vs AL East	  0   3	   8.18	  14   0   0   12.1   18   13   11   3    4  15	  1   60   1.82
Swanson	   vs AL East	  0   2	   8.49	  12   0   0   11.2   14   11   11   5    7   9	  0   56   1.88
Francis	   vs AL East	  0   0	   9.00	   1   0   0    2.     4    2    2   1    0   2	  0   10   2.00
Jackson	   vs AL East	  0   0	   9.00	   1   0   0    1.     1    1    1   1    0   2	  0    4   1.00
Pop	   vs AL East	  0   0   18.00	   4   0   0    2.     4    4    4   2    3   3	  0   13   3.50

The Story So Far

It ain't pretty. It began with the Orioles paying a visit back in May.

Fri 19 May: Baltimore 6 Toronto 2 - Mountcastle's three run homer off Kikuchi staked the Orioles to a 3-1 lead in the third inning. A solo shot from Santander in the sixth (off Richards) and a two run homer by Frazier (off Swanson) in the ninth did the rest of the damage. Kyle Gibson pitched seven strong innings, scattering five hits and holding the Jays to just a single run.

Sat 20 May: Baltimore 6 Toronto 5 - An interesting, and ultimately frustrating game. This was the game when John Schneider finally broke up the Manoah-Kirk combination that had been in place for almost all of Manoah's major league career. And it seemed to work - Manoah, with Danny Jansen behind the plate, actually looked like a competent major league pitcher once again. Manoah pitched into the sixth, and came out of the game largely because his manager made a visit to the mound. Evidently, he'd forgotten that his pitching coach had already made a mound visit that inning. Naturally Jansen hurt himself and went on the IL before Manoah's turn came around again, and after going 0-3, 14.73 in his next three starts, Manoah was sent back to the shop for Major Fixes. As for the rest of the game - the Jays took a 5-2 lead into the eighth inning, with homers from Springer and Jansen leading the attack. But in the eighth, the Orioles put a couple of men on against Erik Swanson. Schneider summoned Jordan Romano for a five out save. Romano got one out, but Ryan O'Hearn tied the game with a three run homer. The Orioles cashed the Zombie Runner in their half of the tenth and Felix Bautista struck out the side to nail it down.

Sun 21 May: Baltimore 8 Toronto 3 - This was a close, absorbing game for most of the afternoon. A Chapman homer staked the Jays to an early lead, but the Orioles cashed a pair in the third. Ortiz led off with a double, Mullins followed with a single, and they both came around to score on a groundout and a failed fielder's choice. The Jays eventually tied it up against reliever Mychal Givens and we went to extras. The Orioles immediately cashed the Zombie Runner against Nate Pearson in their half of the tenth, but the Jays quickly did likewise in their half. So Yimi Garcia came out for the eleventh. He struck out Mountcastle, which seemed a promising start - it was Mountcastle, after all. Garcia then gave up base hits to each of the next four batters, allowing three runs to score, and after getting a second out, concluded his disastrous day by giving up a two run double to Mullins. And the Orioles had completed the sweep.

A few weeks later, the Blue Jays visited Camden Yards, and things went only slightly better.

Tue 13 June: Toronto 6 Baltimore 11 - It started well enough. Springer led off with a double, Guerrero singled him home, and Bassitt worked a scoreless first inning. But in the second, Hays doubled and scored on Frazier's homer to put the Orioles ahead. And in the third, everything went to hell. Santander led off with a single, and O'Hearn followed with a homer to put the Orioles up 4-1. The Orioles then loaded the bases for Gunnar Henderson, who cleared them with his first career grand slam. The Orioles would tack on three more against Francis and White and take an 11-2 lead. Over the last two innings, the Jays would score four times against the back end of the bullpen.

Wed 14 June: Toronto 3 Baltimore 1 - The Jays finally defeat the Orioles, thanks mainly to Jose Berrios, who provided 7.2 innings of three hit shutout. Kyle Bradish was pretty sharp for the Orioles, allowing only a Springer solo homer over his seven innings. The Jays tacked on two more in the eighth on a Kiermaier single and doubles from Merrifield and Bichette. They were needed, as Romano made things a little too interesting with two out in the ninth, allowing three straight hits and putting the tying run on base before fanning Frazier to end it.

Thu 15 June: Toronto 2 Baltimore 4 - A pair of solo homers from Jansen had the Jays up 2-1 in the fifth, but the Orioles tied it up and chased Kikuchi that same inning. Yimi Garcia got the first two outs in the sixth, but three straight singles, from Hays, Rutschman, and Santander, plated the go-ahead run, and that would be enough on this day.

As you probably know, I'm not actually here. I wrote this up a while ago. I don't know who's pitching. But I know this, and I assume John Schneider knows it too. Since joining the Blue Jays, Yimi Garcia has made 10 appearances against the Orioles. They've scored on him in seven of those ten games. It was Einstein who said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. He was a smart fella, that Einstein. Listen to him, John.

Mon 31 July - 7:07 PM
Tue 1 Aug -  7:07 PM
Wed 2 Aug -  7:07 PM
Thu 3 Aug -  3:07 PM (Getaway Day!)

After the  Thursday afternoon game, the Jays are flying off to Boston, the Orioles are flying home to play the Mets, and I'll be flying back to Toronto my own self.
Baltimore at Toronto, 31 July - 3 Aug | 409 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
92-93 - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#433068) #
The Jays are fortunate heading into this big series that Hicks has only pitched once since 7/18. Swanson and Pearson are very fresh too.

The Orioles, on the other hand, have a bunch of arms that have thrown a lot of pitches over the last couple days. Bautista is fresh though. Getting to their bullpen early tonight will set up the series very well.
hypobole - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 01:30 PM EDT (#433069) #
The O's jumped on Severino for 7 runs in the 1st inning yesterday and coasted the rest of the way. Remember uglyone and Magpie a while back discussing how rarely the Jays have had a big 1st inning. Close games are exciting games, but for me at least, exciting is highly overrated.
uglyone - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 01:40 PM EDT (#433071) #
This is the week. If we want to make a statement and/or make a move, this is the week. A bad week here and the fanbase will get very negative, and it'll be deserved.
uglyone - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 01:43 PM EDT (#433073) #
Being 1-12 against BAL and BOS is unfathomable, really.

we could sweep this entire week and the resulting 8-12 record against them would still be awful.
Leaside Cowboy - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#433074) #
Daulton Varsho can give them the old Baltimore chop.
John Northey - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 02:35 PM EDT (#433075) #
Hopefully the O's will Ryu the day they dared come to Toronto... OK, had to get that one out.
  • Today: Gibson (90 ERA+ over 22 starts, 5.8 IP per start) vs Bassitt (106 ERA+ over 22 starts, 5.8 IP per start)
  • Tomorrow: Bradish (128 ERA+ over 19 starts, 5.5 IP per start) vs Ryu (first start of 2023)
  • Wednesday: Grayson Rodriguez (68 ERA+ over 13 starts 4.8 IP per start) vs Kikuchi (110 ERA+ over 21 starts 5.2 IP per start)
  • Thursday: TBD (who knows) vs Gausman (134 ERA+ over 21 starts 6.1 IP per start)
Pitching matchups seem to favor the Jays, lets hope it works out that way. Tomorrow is the toughest as I don't expect more than 3-4 IP from Ryu unless we get lucky.
hypobole - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 02:44 PM EDT (#433076) #
per Nightingale, Mariners listening to offers for Teo among others.
92-93 - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#433078) #
Do they need a reliever like Garcia?
Nigel - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 03:48 PM EDT (#433081) #
Teoscar might be an interesting bounce back candidate for someone. I haven't looked at the numbers this year, but Safeco has historically been death to RH power hitters. Just eyeballing the M's line-up, the RH power hitters are all struggling this year (Rodriquez and Suarez).
Nigel - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 03:51 PM EDT (#433082) #
And lots of teams could use someone like Garcia (he's a perfectly useful middle leverage arm) - I'm just not sure there's anyone lining up for his services now that his 2024 salary has vested.
92-93 - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#433083) #
Teoscar is still hitting well vs. LHP this year: .296/.315/.568 with 6 HR in 92 PA.
John Northey - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#433084) #
$6 mil for a decent reliever like Garcia isn't much these days - barely over 1/2 a WAR needed to justify it. I'm sure many teams would want him if the Jays gave him up.
greenfrog - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#433085) #
OTOH, he has been really bad against RHP: .223/.281/.364 (wRC+ 82). His K rate against all pitchers is 32% this year. His BB rate is a career-low 5.7%.

Is he good enough to merit a trade and a spot on the Jays 26-man roster? Maybe. It would be nice if he brought more to the table in terms of defense and baserunning, to offset the poor performance against RHP.
hypobole - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#433086) #
Teo has crushed LHP at home 177 wRC+ in 50 PA's,  but only 63 wRC+ vs RHP in 170 PA's.

On the road 91 wRC+ vs LHP, 42 PA's, 99 wRC+ vs RHP 179 PA's.
hypobole - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#433087) #
Tampa gets Civale from the Guardians.
Nigel - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#433088) #
Interesting numbers on Teo.

John - I'm just not sure that logic is how many teams looks at relievers in the back end to middle of their pen. Garcia has a longer track record of performance but is he better than Bowden Francis? Maybe, but is he $5m better? Not sure and I'd say no. Once you move into the fungible/variable part of the pen, $6m is an awful lot. Just look at the Jays current pen. Salaries aren't typically evenly distributed over talent in a modern pen.
John Northey - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#433089) #
Dang it - Tampa looks like they did damn good again in a trade. Got Civale (180 ERA+ over 13 starts 77 IP 28 years old with 2 more years of control) for a 1B AAA prospect (top 100 prospect, but hitting 238/342/442 at age 22). Seems like a heck of a deal to me.
electric carrot - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#433090) #
Why is Cleveland trading for prospects at the deadline? They're a half game out of first place.
Nigel - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 04:31 PM EDT (#433091) #
I'd guess they are trading for prospects because that is what they should be doing from a baseball perspective. They're a bad team and need to get a lot better before they should behave differently. Now, from a fan perspective I get the question.
Shoeless Joe - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#433093) #
If Cleveland is selling, I wonder if the jays would buy low on Andres Giménez.
92-93 - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 04:52 PM EDT (#433094) #
Francis replaces Jackson, who's off to be with his son in the NICU.

https://www.thestar.com/sports/blue-jays/jay-jackson-has-thrived-in-the-blue-jays-bullpen-despite-worries-over-his-premature-baby
85bluejay - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#433095) #
I don't think Cleveland is selling - just reallocating assets which they are very good at doing.
Leaside Cowboy - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#433096) #
opposing hitters vs. Kyle Gibson with 2 outs and RISP: .245 / .310 / .340 / .650 OPS
99BlueJaysWay - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#433097) #
Rob Longley tweeted that Hicks is at the Rogers Centre and is available.
Alright!
85bluejay - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#433098) #
Interesting to see which team tries to fix Mitch White who still has lots of control left - maybe a team that trades away starters - Mitch White for Tommy Pham?
greenfrog - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#433099) #
Let’s say the Jays still want to make a big, bold addition to the lineup. What players do they have a nonzero chance of acquiring?

Soto seems the most likely to significantly move the needle on the Jays’ chances of winning a WS. He would transform the Jays lineup into an absolute juggernaut. No idea if the Padres could be persuaded to move him.

PeterG mentioned Luis Robert. He’s a tier below Soto, but still a very good player (who would come with some injury and strikeout risks).

A tier or two down from Robert might be Pham, Thomas, Teo. They would not qualify as “big, bold” acquisitions.

Other longshot names that have been floated: Reynolds, Gimenez,
Jimenez.

Anyone else?
John Northey - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#433100) #
Andrew McCutchen caught my eye awhile ago but he is 90% DH, 10% LF/RF at best now - 112 OPS+ this year after a 99 last year, 128 lifetime. At best he'd be a RH Belt, a free agent post 2023. Not big and bold, but an option.
soupman - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#433101) #
O'Neil in St Louis, though the cards have said they won't sell low....Kris Bryant, if you're feeling spendy, lucky and know something the stats don't?
soupman - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 06:03 PM EDT (#433102) #
i guess you could make a case for Blackmon who has pounded righties and platoon him with Varsho who has reverse splits so far this year...? idk.

if you can get Soto...do you just go for it?
hypobole - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 06:25 PM EDT (#433103) #
It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future - Yogi Berra
Made mine a while back and sticking to it (It was not Hicks). Anyone else willing to predict who we trade for?
Petey Baseball - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#433104) #
greenfrog it was me who mentioned Luis Robert in the previous thread. I think he's a perfect fit for the Jays in multiple levels but the price would be very high. I think he's a better overall player than Soto as well.

My heart is not set on him, though. It's been reported the White Sox aren't trading him or Eloy Jiminez (who is now being used mostly as a DH and seems content with it...I think he has David Ortiz late bloomer type potential and is still young).

I also recall mentioning Tommy Pham way back in June as a realistic target and a useful piece for the Jays. He'd be my prediction about who theyre after and they'll end up with. Doesn't have a ton of upside but has been a good hitter for a long time.
Nigel - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 07:30 PM EDT (#433105) #
The pen is going to get stretched tonight with Bassitt throwing that many pitches in the 1st. Another game of catch-up.
Hodgie - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 07:53 PM EDT (#433106) #
It's gotten lost with most of the attention on the Varsho dumpster fire at the plate, but Bassitt has also been disappointing. Perhaps I had outsized expectations, but I expected so much more from his acquisition.

That first inning was pretty much the difference in the season to date between the two teams. Despite the Jays having the better wRC+ (109 > 103), Baltimore came into today scoring 30 more runs mainly on the back of a 37-point difference in wRC+ with RISP (127 > 90). I also should have known there was no way Baltimore would trade Mountcastle at the deadline ahead of this series.

Nigel - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:02 PM EDT (#433107) #
Other than being a touch more homer prone than usual, this is a pretty typical Bassitt season. Full credit to the O's, other than the botched steal of 3rd, this has been a three inning master class in road grading a starter.
greenfrog - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:08 PM EDT (#433108) #
The O's have both talent and youthful energy. They're a bit like the 1985 Jays that way.
Gerry - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:09 PM EDT (#433109) #
That's not good. Hope it's not serious. (Bo)
scottt - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:11 PM EDT (#433110) #
Kinda like 2020 when he ended they year with a knee injury.
greenfrog - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:12 PM EDT (#433111) #
What happened?
Gerry - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:14 PM EDT (#433112) #
Bo hit it down the line, rounded first, got halfway to second and pulled up grabbing his right knee. He limped off the field.
scottt - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:15 PM EDT (#433113) #
He hit a ball in the right corner and ran to second but slammed the break a third of the way in as he realized he wasn't going to beat the throw and pulled lame.
99BlueJaysWay - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:15 PM EDT (#433114) #
That is so deflating. I hope Bo has a speedy recovery. That need him badly
BlueJayWay - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:16 PM EDT (#433115) #
So Bichette's knee might've blown up.

That might change the plans for tomorrow.


greenfrog - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:16 PM EDT (#433116) #
Argh. That is not good
greenfrog - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:25 PM EDT (#433117) #
Not to be a downer, but if it's a serious injury like a torn ACL, the Jays could probably get a lot in return for players like Merrifield, Chapman and Kiermaier at the trade deadline.
Chuck - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:25 PM EDT (#433118) #
Grichuk, replacing Taylor Ward, has homered for the Angels.
Petey Baseball - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:30 PM EDT (#433119) #
Haven't seen the video..was he at least able to put weight on it?
Gerry - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:33 PM EDT (#433120) #
Yes, he limped off unaided.
christaylor - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:34 PM EDT (#433121) #
I hope they're on the phone inquiring about Anderson right now. Knee injuries even those short of torn ligaments are notoriously slow to heal.

Running out Espinal at SS even for a short stint is just giving up.
greenfrog - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:37 PM EDT (#433122) #
How long does it take to accurately diagnose a knee injury?
christaylor - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:42 PM EDT (#433123) #
Depends on how long it takes to get him into an MRI.
Shoeless Joe - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:48 PM EDT (#433124) #
Chris Bassit has been completely fine this season. He’s been better than Stripling the incumbent and better than Rodon who everybody dreamed on. He’s a reliable mid rotation arm.
Petey Baseball - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:55 PM EDT (#433125) #
If he was able to get off the field unaided I doubt it's a tear. I would be surprised if this is a disaster.

I would be fine with trading for Anderson regardless, even if it meant him having to play second. This team needs a spark offensively.
greenfrog - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#433126) #
Would they do an MRI immediately or wait for some reason (until swelling goes down, for example)?
Shoeless Joe - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#433127) #
Vladdy will need to step up big time now though August. His 0.4 WAR is not going to cut it with how this team is constructed and down Bo.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#433128) #
I think they will try moving Vlad this off-season.
Shoeless Joe - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#433129) #
He has the same WAR as Ty Frances, and isn’t a top 100 player this year.
Shoeless Joe - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 09:46 PM EDT (#433130) #
The strike zone tonight has been brutal
greenfrog - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 09:59 PM EDT (#433131) #
This ump is legitimately terrible.
lexomatic - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 10:02 PM EDT (#433132) #
That 1st called strike vs Jansen was a brutally high pitch
lexomatic - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 10:07 PM EDT (#433133) #
The mast pitch vs Chapman in the 8th too.
Could reasonably have been bases loaded 1 out for Varsho. Fly scores 1 run, but maybe he gets a hit and ties the game.
Bad umps have had too much effect on the outcome of games
We can see it now, but it was difficult before.
Robo umps ca t come soon enough.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 10:08 PM EDT (#433134) #
Yeah but this O’s team is really really good.
Chuck - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 10:09 PM EDT (#433135) #
Bassitt and Pearson each got strikeouts on 3-2 balls that were called strikes.
greenfrog - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 10:10 PM EDT (#433136) #
0/10 with RISP? This is getting ridiculous.
Nigel - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 10:23 PM EDT (#433137) #
The ump was poor but poor both ways. He definitely wasn’t the reason for the loss. It looked like men against boys for a good chunk of the evening.
greenfrog - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 10:34 PM EDT (#433138) #
Schneider seemed pretty shaken up by the Bichette injury.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 10:35 PM EDT (#433139) #
"men against boys." That's a bit of an exaggeration. It was a 4-2 game and they trotted out their 4 best pitchers against us.

Their closer threw about 40 pitches and their set up guy was yanked from the game to bring the closer in early.

They made a tremendous play to get the 2nd out in the bottom of the 9th.

I'll reserve judgement until Friday once the series is complete but the compete level was better tonight than most nights and I was impressed with their approach against the best pitcher in baseball who needed 1) the umps help and 2) a huge play from his defense to make it to the end of the game.
Nigel - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 10:39 PM EDT (#433140) #
I didn’t say the teams are vastly different in quality - just that tonight it wasn’t particularly close. That happens.
Hodgie - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 10:40 PM EDT (#433141) #
The Jays' inability to do any damage against 91-93 middle-middle fastballs was a bigger problem tonight than the missed calls.
greenfrog - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 10:49 PM EDT (#433142) #
Seems like three possible scenarios for Bo:

1. Strained knee, out for a few days to a week
2. Significant knee injury, out for several weeks
3. Long-term injury, out for most or all of the season

In scenario 2, what should Atkins do? What about in scenario 3? As good as the pitching staff has been, it’s hard to see the team going very far without Bo. He’s the straw that stirs the drink (well, lately there have been a couple of straws: Bo and Merrifield).

Scenario 3 would present the toughest choices. I doubt Atkins would pivot to being a seller. Most likely he would have to mostly stand pat and watch the team gut out the rest of the season.
92-93 - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 10:53 PM EDT (#433143) #
The Jays kinda looked pretty good despite losing that game.

Luplow instead of Springer as a PH is concerning. Was George in the dugout?
dalimon5 - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 10:54 PM EDT (#433144) #
1. Do nothing

2. Acquire Soto or Arenado

3. Acquire Soto or Arenado
greenfrog - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 10:59 PM EDT (#433145) #
Honest question. If you offered SD Tiedemann, Orelvis, and another couple of prospects for Soto, why would the Padres make that trade? Aren’t they planning on trying to win next year?
Polite Nate - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 11:00 PM EDT (#433146) #
In 2021, Tampa Bay won 100 games and looked for all the world like a dominant team. That season, they went 18-1 against Baltimore. There's that old Tommy Lasorda saying about the worst team in baseball still wins a third of their games; if Baltimore could have even cleared that low bar, the Rays end up with 94-95 wins, and look more like a run of the mill playoff team. 
And Baltimore was a very, very bad team that season. No matter what you think of this year's Blue Jays or Orioles (or Red Sox!), any gap in talent here is not anything like those 2021 Rays and O's. And so if they continue to more or less sweep the season series, it well contribute to the noise and distortion in the finally standings that makes every season a weird and unique snowflake.
Whit Merrifield hits that ball a little softer (in other words, worse) and maybe we win that game. Dumb sport sometimes.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 11:06 PM EDT (#433147) #
They would trade him if they can't resign him because he will cost a fortune and they already have some big contracts.

Maybe Tatis is the guy you trade for. Vladdy and prospects for Tatis.
John Northey - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 11:18 PM EDT (#433148) #
Kind of surprised at the Trade Simulator. Got Soto to the Jays for Tiedemann, Toman, Zulueta, and Jimenez. Soto's value dropped a lot due to him only having 1 year and 2 months left pre-free agency. I'd do it. But would the Padres? I doubt it.
lexomatic - Monday, July 31 2023 @ 11:51 PM EDT (#433149) #
The ump was poor but poor both ways


This doesn't really improve things...
But also the timing matters. Late and close with baserunning matters a lot. Considering how many time the Jays have given up HR after what should have been a strikeout, outs that shouldn't have happened affect the outcome of the game. I didn't see the whole game, and cant go back to look at other blown calls, so I can't really back it up. But it is an obvious problem that the league cannot continue to ignore.
John Northey - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 12:59 AM EDT (#433150) #
Good news for 2023 - the Yankees are open to offers on impending free agents. Huh, never thought they'd throw up the white flag just 3 1/2 games out of a playoff spot. Boston is the only team closer to the Jays/Astros (tied for the last playoff slot) right now. The Angels are 4 out, Seattle 4 1/2 (and also taking offers on Teoscar among others). Jays might get in by default if this keeps up.
Leaside Cowboy - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 06:42 AM EDT (#433151) #
Tulowitzki missed 3 weeks in September 2015. Boys need to hold down the fort until Bo returns.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 07:11 AM EDT (#433152) #
Here's my prediction for today:

Blue Jays acquire Aaron Bummer and Tim Anderson for Horowitz and Juenger.
bpoz - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 07:38 AM EDT (#433153) #
Glad to see Arizona making some trades. 1st time in contention must be protected. Miami, Baltimore, Cincinnati also should trade to improve. Seattle selling is a big surprise to me. Texas is the trade deadline star.
85bluejay - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 07:46 AM EDT (#433154) #
I'm sure the Cardinals are listening on the expiring contract of Paul DeJong if Bo goes on the IL.
hypobole - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 08:30 AM EDT (#433155) #
My 1st post this thread mentioned uglyone and Magpie discussing how few big 1st innings we've had.  Last night, came up empty while the O's scored 2. Played catch up the rest of the way.   Not once did the Jays score 2 1st inning runs  the entire month of July.  Last time was the date of that discussion back on June 28, when we got 4 off Logan Webb.  So I checked a random team.  Washington has done it 4 times - since the All-Star break.
greenfrog - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 08:33 AM EDT (#433156) #
Springer (60 wRC+ in July) was undoubtedly a factor in the team's first inning performance that month.
Petey Baseball - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 08:53 AM EDT (#433157) #
Atkins may want to pull off something big today.
scottt - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:01 AM EDT (#433158) #
The Jays' right bats are mostly vulnerable to stuff on the outside corner.
Exception being Bichette and Merrifield.
The Jays' left bats are all vulnerable to high fastballs.

The best they can do is lay off but when the ump extend the strike zone 6 inches away and up to a foot high, they don't really have a chance.

Ideally, they would look for short guys who can hit high fastball.
The umps don't call the low strikes on short guys.
Also, developing hitters who wear padding and sit on the plate and can crush balls outside.

Then, maybe, we'd see robo-umps.

I seems like Belt get at least one high ball called a strike at every AB.
It's weird because he crouches when he gathers to swing so the balls are almost at his head then. 

greenfrog - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:04 AM EDT (#433159) #
If Bichette is out for the season, I don't think there is much Atkins can do to salvage 2023. I guess he could trade for Anderson/DeJong plus a big bat (assuming he can find one somewhere), but that seems like a long shot and wouldn't necessarily propel the Jays through the postseason.

The key question is whether Bichette can recover from his injury at some point this season. As Bassitt put it yesterday, "he's our best player."
jgadfly - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:39 AM EDT (#433160) #
Petey B ... "may" ... 5*
soupman - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:52 AM EDT (#433161) #
Braves lost Acuna before the break and won the World Series. The jays are a pitching a défense team now and Bo is not a good fielder. I think your concern is overblown.
greenfrog - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 10:02 AM EDT (#433162) #
Did Acuna Jr. have more than 15% of his team’s total hits when he went down with an injury?
Glevin - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 10:05 AM EDT (#433163) #
"The key question is whether Bichette can recover from his injury at some point this season. As Bassitt put it yesterday, "he's our best player."

Jays offense would be dead without Bo. They can go on without him for a few weeks if needed but if he's out rest of the season or something else catastrophic, this team has no shot.
jgadfly - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#433164) #
Where's Mattingly ? ... with the Oriole CF backing up on Hay's catch and it falls in for a hit, does Kirk make it to third, let alone home ? I realize that 'sitting on the bench' George needs a break but with DJ now in the game who plays RF if the Jays tie it up ? ... But, there again, with the way things are going for George he'd probably get doubled off 2nd on the catch.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 10:13 AM EDT (#433165) #
If Bo is out for the rest of the season then yes it would be a huge blow to the team’s playoff hopes. The offense is bad with Bo and he’s been one of the only offensive bright spots. Without him it could get really bad. I’m going to guess the Jays get one of Anderson/De Jong, plus possibly an OF (Teoscar if he’s available might be a boost in morale). If Bo is out for the rest of the year then I’d be tempted to call up Barger and Schneider and just live with the consequences of that (best case they show signs of being long term pieces) but I doubt the Jays FO would consider that.
Polite Nate - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 10:29 AM EDT (#433166) #
I don't see Anderson or DeJong as much more appealing than running Espinal out there, especially since you know teams are going to squeeze harder on any move now. Maybe Anderson if you think he can bounce back to career norms.

Team has a 108 wRC+ and is #7 in MLB according to Fangraphs. It'll be worse without Bo, but it's not "bad".
jgadfly - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 10:35 AM EDT (#433167) #
Does Jay Jackson's status on 40 man roster allow Ryu to come off of the IL-60 without the Jays having to designate anyone?
Glevin - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#433168) #
"Team has a 108 wRC+ and is #7 in MLB according to Fangraphs. It'll be worse without Bo, but it's not "bad"."

Except substituting Espinal for Bo, you are replacing a 135 WRC+ with a 74 WRC+. That takes the team from a top 1/3 offense to middle of the pack. Can they still win? Once you make the playoffs, anything can happen but losing your best player is going to be crushing for any team.
hypobole - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#433169) #
Pretty sure Jackson's status only affects the 26 man.
hypobole - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 10:49 AM EDT (#433170) #
Jays should know Bo's status before 6 pm and at least attempt to act accordingly.
John Northey - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 10:55 AM EDT (#433171) #
Wonder if SD would consider trading Kim right now? He'd be a perfect fit - can hit, super good fielder, can play SS/3B/2B all at an elite level. Talk about a perfect fit - put him in at SS until Bo is healthy, move to 2B once he is in the mix with Merrifield and leave Espinal and Biggio on the bench. Trade Value suggests a Kim for Barriera and Toman deal would work. I doubt SD would go for it, but they might go for a Barger & Dallas deal.
soupman - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#433172) #
They were a game below 500 and went on to win the division.
Leaside Cowboy - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 11:00 AM EDT (#433173) #
The pressure on Ross Atkins has doubled. Time to call Jobu. He will come.
greenfrog - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 11:12 AM EDT (#433174) #
Buster Olney says the Jays expect to have more information about Bo's injury by noon.
hypobole - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 11:22 AM EDT (#433175) #
Bold prediction - Padres will not trade Kim or Hader, not even Soto.


I will stake my reputation on it.  In fact I will even steak my reputation on it, because steaks are much better than stakes. :)
lexomatic - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#433176) #
https://twitter.com/UmpScorecards/status/1686385452469919747


Another bad ump scorecard. Those misses are horrendous. Not sure I understand the leverage they're using. A later inning, more people on base so greater chance of run when you're behind vs already being ahead, earlier, fewer runners.

Intuitively it doesn't make sense, even removed of context.
The Chapman blown call in the 8th seems way more impactul. Some account Ove never seen before called the ump auditor suggested that one call reduced the Jays chances of winning the game by 9%
bpoz - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 11:26 AM EDT (#433177) #
If the Mets are willing to trade Verlander, I wonder if Baltimore ownership would go get him.
Parker - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 11:30 AM EDT (#433178) #
Yeah, I hope they do. I'm finding it harder and harder to root for this team's success while he's along for the ride. I'd like to see an end to the Guerrero Jr. era in Toronto as soon as possible.
Ryan Day - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 11:31 AM EDT (#433179) #
The Padres clearly aren't going to rebuild after all the money they've spent; they might trade a FA like Soto, but Kim has another cheap year under contract, so there's no reason to trade him.

Unless you wanted to do something bold like a Manoah/Kim swap.
Magpie - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#433180) #
Obviously the Jays wont say anything until the deadline passes. I remember Klay Thompson limping back to hit his free throws after he tore his ACL, but I doubt Bichette's injury is that catastrophic. You tear that ligament,you go down. But unless he's very very lucky, he goes on the IL for a while.
Gerry - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 11:36 AM EDT (#433181) #
Ryu comes off IL today, assume Francis is optioned.

Green activated at the end of the week, Pearson optioned?

Romano off the IL next week, Jackson or Cabrera optioned?
uglyone - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#433182) #
This sports doctor is guessing that Bo is either a sprain (days) or a meniscal tear (scope & weeks), and probably not a ligament tear.

https://twitter.com/DrJesseMorse/status/1686185215197138944?t=uY5DQ_Sw9GL4Za5o27Y3JQ&s=19
John Northey - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#433183) #
FYI: Looking at the umpscorecard on Twitter I ran into a Travis Snider tweet which is quite interesting about the day he was traded from Toronto to Pittsburgh. Well worth reading about a 'can't miss' prospect who missed.
Magpie - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#433184) #
Won't Ryu need a spot on the 40 man.
hypobole - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#433186) #
Welcome back from beautiful Winnipeg! Yes.
John Northey - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 12:55 PM EDT (#433187) #
Looking at FanGraphs for SS who are top fielders - OAA as a simple measure to use. Figuring since you can't match Bo's offense, maybe try for a defensive upgrade while he is out. The top 4 are not available (Franco, Swanson, Witt Jr, Tovar) for less than a kings ransom and maybe not even then. #5 surprised me and would cost nothing but his contract - Javier Báez of Detroit - horrid bat this year 64 OPS+ vs a 99 lifetime, but signed for 4 more years for $98 million (no way he opts out after this year). Wonder how much of that Detroit would be willing to eat in order to get rid of him? Wonder if coming to a contender would get him to come back to life? Sometimes guys fall apart on losers when they thought they were going to a winner. Would be a desperate move, but if Detroit ate, say, $90 million of it then it would work. But really I don't see it unless Bo is REALLY hurt bad.

More realistic is Paul DeJong of St Louis who is next on the OAA leaderboard. Bo is ranked 19th btw at -5 vs DeJong at +8. So yeah, it'd hurt the offense but would really help the defense to get him.

Hopefully Atkins can chew gum and walk at the same time today and gets a RH OF bat while fretting about Bo. Read somewhere that the Jays have asked about DeJong today just in case. If out for a month then it makes a TON of sense imo depending on price. Part of me wonders what would happen if a kid was called up - there are a few in AAA and AA who could cover and if one catches fire it could be useful. Ones on the 40 man are Orelvis Martinez, Otto Lopez, Leo Jimenez, and Addison Barger. If it is a 2 week thing then giving a kid a shot to impress isn't a bad idea imo, if it is a month+ then a trade makes sense.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#433188) #
2nd half wRC+

* TOR 123

* Kirk 214
* Merrifield 175
* Chapman 146
* Bichette 146
* Jansen 136
* Kiermaier 126
* Guerrero 122
* Varsho 62
* Springer 24

* Biggio 189
* Luplow 140
* Belt 97
* Espinal 89
hypobole - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:11 PM EDT (#433189) #
If the Jays do need to trade for DeJong, wonder if the Cards would take back a couple of the Francis/Hatch/Zulueta/ Pop/Danner group. That would kill 2 birds with one stone, opening up a 40 man spot for Ryu as well. Cards are at 38 right now.
Disclaimer - I have never tried to kill birds with stones.
Shoeless Joe - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:11 PM EDT (#433190) #
No Update so far has me worried.
Shoeless Joe - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:14 PM EDT (#433191) #
Blue Jays to aquifer DeJong
greenfrog - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:21 PM EDT (#433192) #
Sounds like Bo will be out for at least a few weeks. I wonder if the plan for 2024 will be DeJong at SS, Bo at 2B.
Gerry - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#433193) #
Barger traded for Brad Hand.

That is Alek Barger on the Braves. Whew!
Nigel - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#433194) #
The last 4 years De Jong has a 84 wRC+. Any plan that involves De Jong (other than as an emergency SS fill in) is a bad one.
92-93 - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:27 PM EDT (#433195) #
Dejong isn't worth his team options so he's a rental that shouldn't cost more than a low-value "prospect".
Ducey - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:31 PM EDT (#433196) #
Is Dejong any better than Espinal?

I'm betting Espy would put up better numbers if he played regularly.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#433197) #
I’d prefer Tim Anderson over DeJong. At least there would be some upside with the bat, and Anderson’s option would be reasonable next season if he were to bounce back (while DeJong’s isn’t).

Hector Gomez is saying that the Jays are the front runner to acquire Teoscar, which would be interesting in many ways.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#433199) #
Dejong hits lefties well this year at least.
Gerry - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#433200) #
Lots of confirmations that the trade is done.
greenfrog - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#433201) #
"Blue Jays to aquifer DeJong"

Maybe he'll hit better with some additional hydration?
Nigel - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:43 PM EDT (#433202) #
Personally, I'd be surprised if De Jong were actually better than Espinal at this point but if the acquisition cost is minimal then why not.
Gerry - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:43 PM EDT (#433203) #
Svanson traded for De Jong. Too much?

That's Matt Svanson, a reliever in the org.

Basically we acquired him for cash.
Magpie - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:44 PM EDT (#433204) #
Still out west, struggling with the phone!
Gerry - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#433205) #
Correction, the Jays also received some cash. And Svanson has been decent this year for Vancouver.
Polite Nate - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#433206) #
I was worried that they'd get more exploited for the Bo situation, I can live with this deal as it stands.
Gerry - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:57 PM EDT (#433207) #
40 man move required for Ryu, as Magpie noted, De Jong now and Green later.

Thomas Hatch, Nate Lukas or Otto Lopez could be at risk.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:57 PM EDT (#433208) #
Dejong's actually better than i thought.

* This yr: 96wrc+, 3.2war/650
* Career: 97wrc+, 2.6war/650
* Avg Projection: 90wrc+, 2.2war/650
Gerry - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 01:58 PM EDT (#433209) #
And its Luplow who has been DFA'd to make room.
92-93 - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 02:07 PM EDT (#433210) #
That's the same Luplow whom the Jays used as a pinch-hitter last night in a critical pennant race game instead of Springer. Incredible.
Glevin - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#433211) #
A relief prospect in high A is essentially a non prospect. DeJong makes the Jays better. He won't replace Bo obviously, but he is a good defender and has pop so he improves the team. Next up, another RH bat and the Jays to clear out some of the 40 man.
greenfrog - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 02:13 PM EDT (#433212) #
So, likely one more position player to be acquired in the next few hours? Who will it be?
uglyone - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 02:16 PM EDT (#433213) #
Plausible that as of now, even fully healthy the best lineup might include Dejong at 2B and Merrifield in LF.


Pending more moves of course.
electric carrot - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 02:27 PM EDT (#433214) #
"That's the same Luplow whom the Jays used as a pinch-hitter last night in a critical pennant race game"

I was floored by this. I might not have chosen Springer -- but Luplow was dead last on my list -- and he did not look good at the plate.
Parker - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 02:27 PM EDT (#433215) #
Based on the cost, I love this trade. Cards are even throwing in soda money.
Chuck - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 02:27 PM EDT (#433216) #
I'd be surprised if De Jong were actually better than Espinal at this point

I agree, but having DeJong replace Bichette for now allows the team to continue using Merrifield in LF and Espinal at 2B against LHP and not have to accept a crummy RH OF in a trade. Having Espinal as the starting SS would remove that flexibility.

Further, I expect that DeJong will bat at the bottom of the lineup and be pinch-hit for, against RHP, making Espinal the next shortstop in line and used more than he is now.

Parker - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 02:29 PM EDT (#433217) #
The Luplow DFA sure seems to indicate a disconnect between the manager and the front office.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#433218) #
This year:

vLHP

* Espinal 74wrc+
* Dejong 129wrc+

vRHP

* Espinal 75wrc+
* Dejong 85wrc+


Career

vLHP

* Espinal 114wrc+
* Dejong 89wrc+

vRHP

* Espinal 88wrc+
* Dejong 99wrc+
Nigel - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 02:41 PM EDT (#433221) #
A huge chunk of De Jong's career wRC+ came in his first season a looonngg time ago. I still think its a reasonable deal at the cost but to expect anything like his career production today is unrealistic.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 02:44 PM EDT (#433222) #
But his production this year (96wrc+) is the same as his career mark (97wrc+).

uglyone - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 02:48 PM EDT (#433224) #
I'm gonna say it - debuting Ryu against the Orioles is dumb and unnecessary.
John Northey - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#433225) #
Luplow was never more than a backup who would rarely play. In his most recent call up (July 19th to now) he has been in 3 games, 10 PA, 3 H, all singles, 2 BB, 4 K. Nothing worth talking about really. I suspect the manager used him just because there weren't any better options - Springer might have needed a full day off (his stats suggest it).
John Northey - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#433226) #
Ryu vs the kids? I think there is a logic there - young teams tend to be best vs fastballs, not 1001 breaking pitches. Of course, they got to Bassitt early last night but once he settled in they were toast. A shame it took him as long to settle in as it did. If Ryu paid close attention (as I'm sure he did) odds are he'll start off better and hopefully have better results.
85bluejay - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#433230) #
I predict that DeJong will play well enough to stay in the lineup when Bo returns.
hypobole - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#433232) #
I think people are remembering Espinal's excellent defence last year and haven't paid attention to the fact he just hasn't been good this year. Last year between 2nd and SS +11 OAA,  this year -4 OAA. And that's in a bit over 310 innings,

Bo, who no one considers a plus defender,  is -5 OAA , but that's in over 900 innings.
Leaside Cowboy - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#433245) #
Ross took from John to pay Paul.
Gerry - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 06:19 PM EDT (#433248) #
Bowden Francis optioned to make room for Ryu.

Ernie Clement recalled to replace Luplow.

Otto Lopez recalled and placed on the 60 day IL to make room for Ryu on the 40 man.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#433268) #
Why on earth would they have brought Ryu back to face the Orioles of all teams. So strange.
jz6pwc - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 07:30 PM EDT (#433269) #
<br>Going to be interesting to see how they activate DeJong and Green.
Cracka - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 07:35 PM EDT (#433272) #
This is excellent roster management. It's very rare for a team to recall someone from the minors just to place them on the IL, especially a player that hasn't played in the majors all season. I can't recall the last time this has happened -- not just with our team but across MLB. It will cost the Jays about $200k in extra salary, as Lopez will now earn MLB money instead of AAA money - and Lopez will get 60+ more days of MLB service time. But it keeps him in the org for another year at least... so overall a solid move.
Petey Baseball - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#433274) #
The last Vlad at-bat (he walked) looked like the old Vlad. I could have sworn he was standing a bit closer to the plate and up in the box.

Four Seamer - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:05 PM EDT (#433280) #
Hometown scoring there helps the fielders but not the pitchers - Chapman and Espinosa both should have made those plays that frame.
soupman - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:05 PM EDT (#433281) #
Cabrera gets hung with 3 earnies…why? E5 for me. Would have exited the inning having given up a double to Mountcastle
Four Seamer - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#433282) #
Sorry, Espinal obviously - autocorrect strikes again.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#433283) #
Gausman has pitched twice in 25 days (1 per 12.5 days).

Kikuchi 3 times in 26 days (1 per 8.6 days).

Manoah 3 times in 25 days (1 per 8.3 days).

Berrios 4 times in 27 days (1 per 6.5 days).

Bassitt 4 times in 24 days (1 per 6 days).


Can anyone explain to me why we've decided to go with a 6 man rotation, and the resulting short bullpen?
scottt - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:10 PM EDT (#433284) #
Bad bullpen management though.
When the starter is a lefty and the other team has 8 right bats, please don't send a lefty reliever for the 6th or the 7th. Bring a RHP reliever early to dare them to pinch hit and if they do use the LHP reliever when they come around again. Garcia would be ideal there.
It's not rocket science.

99BlueJaysWay - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:11 PM EDT (#433285) #
Because the starters complained about the load they were carrying while Manoah was down. You could say Gausman’s injury is evidence of that. They don’t want to send Manoah down or use him in the pen. Same with Ryu.

uglyone - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:14 PM EDT (#433286) #
so we have a bunch of starters that don't want to receive a normal starters' workload and have to hobble ourselves with a short bullpen as a result?

sweet.
scottt - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:14 PM EDT (#433287) #
Because the starters have sore arms.
Explain to me why the manager sends the middle relief lefty to face a bunch of right handed batter?
We don't bother looking at the lineup anymore? Everybody is assigned an inning for the month?


greenfrog - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:15 PM EDT (#433288) #
The offense is kind of a mess right now. Guerrero, Varsho, Espinal, Springer, Kiermaier…half the lineup (or more) is currently ineffectual or mediocre.
scottt - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:17 PM EDT (#433289) #
Since when is one inning a normal bullpen workload?
The only guy who threw yesterday is Pearson and he's probably available if needed.
Hicks hasn't thrown in over a week. Swanson threw 4 days ago.

uglyone - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:19 PM EDT (#433290) #
Last 14 days

* Kirk 264wrc+
* Merrifield 165
* Bichette 150
* Chapman 137
* Jansen 136
* Guerreo 118
* Kiermaier 109
* Varsho 60
* Springer -23

* Biggio 177
* Belt 66
* Espinal 65
dalimon5 - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:19 PM EDT (#433291) #
Yeah this is baffling and the season can unravel quickly with this type of management.
greenfrog - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:22 PM EDT (#433292) #
Gosh. I was using a larger sample (July). Guess I should have used a smaller sample and included the player sidelined with a knee injury.
scottt - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:24 PM EDT (#433293) #
The bullpen is fine but they have to use the 7th/8th/9th inning guys even if they are not winning
Otherwise, the other 4 guys will pitch every day.

99BlueJaysWay - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:25 PM EDT (#433294) #
So…….2014 vibes?
uglyone - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#433295) #
July:

* Merrifield 172
* Jansen 156
* Chapman 155
* Bichette 138
* Kirk 127
* Guerrero 110
* Kiermaier 100
* Springer 60
* Varsho 22

* Belt 110
* Biggio 107
* Espinal 67
uglyone - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#433296) #
It's just nuts to me.

You have a solid pitcher like Ryu coming back, but instead of using him to help make your team stronger, you use him to make both the rotation and the bullpen worse simultaneously.



Nigel - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:30 PM EDT (#433297) #
This is just a good team that they are playing. Full stop.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:32 PM EDT (#433298) #
yes, Baltimore and boston are just unbeatably good. Nothing the Jays can be expected to do about that.
Nigel - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:35 PM EDT (#433299) #
That isn’t remotely what I said
lexomatic - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:37 PM EDT (#433300) #
The scouts really seem to have no clue with Mountcastle, He seems to put up a good amount of his offense vs the Jays. Is it an execution thing, or are other teams doing different things.
greenfrog - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:37 PM EDT (#433301) #
Yep, some players have been doing great, but Springer, Varsho and Espinal have been awful, Guerrero has been way underperforming even the lowered expectations we’ve set for him (2022 Vlad versus 2021 Vlad), and Kiermaier has dramatically cooled off after a hot start in April/May (his June wRC+ was 34). All five of those players are in tonight’s lineup.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:37 PM EDT (#433302) #
Im with Ugly.
scottt - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:39 PM EDT (#433303) #
Take back the first inning and Ryu was pretty good.
The first inning happened because he had to throw strikes to get them swinging.
They could have used Garcia or Swanson for the 7/8 but they'd still be losing 4-3 at best.
They are just saving the pen for the next 2 games.

They are 5th in batting average and 8th in OBP but just 14th in runs scored as they are struggling to score runs without homeruns.

uglyone - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:41 PM EDT (#433304) #
and because we have a short bullpen, we waste Hicks in a blowout loss. just genius stuff here.
Glevin - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:41 PM EDT (#433305) #
Jays have a lot of small issues but by far the biggest one is Vladdy turning into a pumpkin. In 2021, you have Vladdy and Bichette worth 11.4 WAR at 22 and 23 years old. This is a core to build around long-term. It's a no-brainer. I don't know how you deal with your superstar turning into a replacement level player almost immediately. It just doesn't really happen and there's really nothing you can do to protect yourself because you need to build around these guys. Like imagine Acuna next year turns into Brian Anderson or Yordan Alvarez turned into Garret Cooper. It would be devastating to any team. That's what essentially has happened with the Jays and I don't really know what they can do about it.
greenfrog - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#433306) #
Springer breaking down (possibly due to accumulation of injuries) is another big problem for the Jays. In roughly 450 PA, he has posted less than 1 WAR. 2023 has been his worst season in the majors by far, and he's under contract through 2026 at $25m per year.

Same thing for Varsho. He was a 4.7 fWAR player last year. So far this year he has 0.8 fWAR in over 400 PA.

The Jays have had tremendous seasons from several players (Bo, Chapman, Merrifield, Gausman, Berrios, a few of the relievers). But the combined loss of value from the underperformance of VGJ, Springer, Varsho and Manoah has been huge.
99BlueJaysWay - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 10:23 PM EDT (#433307) #
Greenfrog I agree 100%. I couldn’t have said it better myself
99BlueJaysWay - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 10:43 PM EDT (#433308) #
so we have a bunch of starters that don't want to receive a normal starters' workload and have to hobble ourselves with a short bullpen as a result? The Jays’ starters have pitched the 5th most IP in mlb. 7 IP from first.
99BlueJaysWay - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 10:45 PM EDT (#433309) #
Sorry, I’m wrong on the second point. They’re 21 IP from first.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 10:52 PM EDT (#433310) #
Yeah if Vlad is a 2 WAR type player (or in the case of 2023 bordering replacement level), then I’m not sure what the Jays could do. That deflates the core’s upside tremendously. I would expect Vlad has at least one more 6+ WAR season in him, possibly in 2025 when he can really benefit from it, but that doesn’t help the team in 2023. As mentioned there is blame to go around for the Jays being an underwhelming offensive team but Vlad has to hit like a star for this team to be as good as advertised. The fact that they are 10 games over .500 with their star being a close to replacement level player is somewhat surprising.
greenfrog - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#433311) #
I agree that Vlad has been very disappointing, but I disagree that he has to be a star for this team to be great. I think that’s a narrative that’s been repeated so many times that we all just accept it as being true without much critical thought. If Vladdy and Varsho and Springer and Manoah were 3 WAR players this year (that is, merely good instead of being stars), the Jays would currently be in first place in the AL East.

Think about the 1992 and 1993 Jays. Joe Carter was only a 2 WAR (1992) and 2.9 WAR (1993) player. But the teams had so much distributed talent that it was perfectly fine that Carter wasn’t a 5 WAR player.
John Northey - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#433312) #
Vlad's exit velocity is 93.9 this year, 92.8 last year, 95.1 in 2021. He barrels the bat at a 13.2% clip, better than 2022's 11.2 but behind 2021's 15.1. His hard hit% is 55.7 vs 50.4% last year and 55.2% in 2021. So he is hitting the ball hard more often than in 2021. Basically it reads as Vlad having very, very bad luck this year. His xwOBA is 391 vs the real 342 he is at. 2021's was an insane 417 vs 419 actual. Basically if his real stats matched his underlying stats like they did in the past he'd be one of the best hitters in baseball. His projected wRC+ for the rest of the year range from 132 to 158 depending on the method.

Bottom line? At some point his bad luck has to stop and get back to normal and when it does watch out. But yes, sometimes guys have full seasons where nothing goes right. Where line drives keep hitting mitts and umps call balls strikes all the way through, often followed by a year where the opposite happens. In other words, this winter might be a great time to sign Vlad long term as he'll never be cheaper to sign, but the fear of his bad luck will be strong.
John Northey - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 11:36 PM EDT (#433313) #
For comparison check George Springer...
Exit velocity 88.3 is his lowest ever, his barrel% is 8.5%, better than last years 8.3% but well below his career 9.9%. hard hit is 39.8% his lowest since 2018 and below his career 40.6%. Springer is a 'oh crap' situation.
John Northey - Tuesday, August 01 2023 @ 11:46 PM EDT (#433314) #
Or uglier - Kirk...
Exit velocity a poor 86.8 over 3 MPH slower than ever before, barrel at 5.3% vs 7.1% career. 36.1% hard hit, almost 9 points below last year, and far below his 43.1% lifetime figure.

Clearly Kirk needs to get the barrel of the bat onto the ball. Do that and everything else should take care of itself. Maybe he needs contacts or something.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 08:12 AM EDT (#433317) #
John its not how hard he's hitting the ball. He's swinging at bad pitches and hitting less mistake pitches.

Greenfrog, we've thought critically. Perhaps yes, in 2023 when Merrifield is playing very well and Belt is hitting decent and KK was hitting over .280 as the 9 hitter and Jansen is slugging like he is...then yes Vlad doesnt have to be a superstar. But what happens next year when these guys are gone? Vlad has to hit like a superstar. What happens if Bo stops being one of the best hitters kn the league? Vlad has to hit like a superstar.

The point is taken that he doesn't have to hit like a superstar if x,y and z are happening but the larger point is that he has to be a 4/5/6 WAR player which is pretty damn good and nowhere near where he is currently. Look at the examples given by another poster. If Alvarez doesnt perform at similar level then yes the Astros can still win but unlikely they have a shot at the World Series.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 08:15 AM EDT (#433318) #
"Jays have a lot of small issues but by far the biggest one is Vladdy turning into a pumpkin. In 2021, you have Vladdy and Bichette worth 11.4 WAR at 22 and 23 years old. This is a core to build around long-term. It's a no-brainer. I don't know how you deal with your superstar turning into a replacement level player almost immediately. It just doesn't really happen and there's really nothing you can do to protect yourself because you need to build around these guys. Like imagine Acuna next year turns into Brian Anderson or Yordan Alvarez turned into Garret Cooper. It would be devastating to any team. That's what essentially has happened with the Jays and I don't really know what they can do about it."

Ive been banging this drum slowly but consistently for about 2 years now.
greenfrog - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 08:37 AM EDT (#433319) #
You have to look at the roster as a whole. Underperformance by one player (name brand player or not) can be compensated for by strong performance in other areas.

Houston is actually a great example. The Astros are paying Jose Abreu $58.5m from 2023-2025 to play first base, around the same as the Jays will be paying Vladdy to play the same position. So far in 2023, Abreu has been worth -0.1 WAR in 437 PA. Vladdy has been worth 0.4 WAR in 459 PA.

Guess which team is actually two wins better than the other, despite their well-paid first baseman being 1.4 wins worse than the other team's first baseman? That's right -- Houston. Is Abreu a big problem for Houston? Yes, he's an even bigger problem than Vladdy, as their payroll is lower than Toronto's. Have they been able to play .565 ball despite that problem and way more injury problems than Toronto has had? Yes. Because their overall roster has been better.
greenfrog - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 08:43 AM EDT (#433320) #
That should read, -1.0 WAR for Abreu (not -0.1 WAR). He's been that bad in 2023.
scottt - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 09:08 AM EDT (#433321) #
 Bassitt is 12th in inning pitched, Berrios is 14th and Gausman is 18th.

They used to have Mitch White who barely pitched, now they have an extra starter so they can aim for more than 6 innings.

Hicks wasn't sharp and needed the work badly.

dalimon5 - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 09:22 AM EDT (#433322) #
greenfrog look at Glevin's comment. Your example and point doesn't address his point. I am not arguing your point only defending his.

This core as he pointed out is built around Vlad. Houston's core is not built around Abreu. That is the difference. If the Jays had any player of Tucker, Altuve or Alex Bregman's caliber on their team that they built around then your point would make more sense to me. Right now they only have Bo and Vlad and as Glevin astutely pointed out...the latter has turned into a pumpkin from the time the team decided to build around him.
greenfrog - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 09:38 AM EDT (#433324) #
My point is that endlessly obsessing about "the core of Bichette and Vladdy" or lamenting that Vladdy hasn't lived up to the hype is ultimately a red herring. Lots of teams have prospects that haven't panned out as hoped. You deal with it and move on (and, as John as pointed out, Vladdy has been hitting the ball hard this year). Getting outstanding production from one hyped prospect and relatively low production from another hyped prospect isn't all that bad. At least the Jays didn't trade Bichette for Jazz Chisholm a year ago.

Value is value and can be procured in different ways, as the Jays have done with Gausman, Semien, Ray, Berrios.

In my opinion, the excessive focus on Bichette and Vladdy is misplaced. It's the failure to acquire and develop sufficient additional talent that is hampering the team. The prospect pipeline to the MLB roster has been woefully deficient in recent years, Springer is now bombing out, Manoah has a negative WAR this year, and Varsho has been poor. When the overall context is taken into account, the commentary on Vladdy looks like scapegoating to me.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 10:01 AM EDT (#433325) #
Maybe so, but if Vlad wasn't so weak then none of the other issues would matter. Speinger, Varsho and Manoah can all stink and the team would likely be in first place. The "scapegoating" will only get worse as he starts to make more money and the pressure of a Rafael Devers sized contract presents itself as the only option to retain him.

Jazz Chisolm jr has been injured. Over 162 he's still on pace for 30 HR and 50+ SB. He needs surgery in the off season.

Vladdy is in the key spot in the line up, at an age where he should be thriving. There are less excuses for him compared to Springer or others.
hypobole - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 10:20 AM EDT (#433326) #
I'm going to take a different tack. I'm not saying Martinez is a bad hitting coach, but I really think he's not the right coach for this team. Memory is foggy about our thoughts on Dwayne Murphy, but until Jose, I don't remember anyone praising him.  But what he helped do with Jose was huge. When you have a player with his power, you teach him to pull the ball in the air. 


We saw what Vlad did in the Derby. Why is he only 8th of the 12 Jays with 100 PA's in FB%? Statcast says he should be doing much better. Why? He's also 8th in pull %.  Contrast him with Danny. Only 2 fewer HR's than Vlad despite half as many PA's as Vlad. Danny's EV's are middling and statcast implies he's overperforming. But he isn't, because in addition to being #1 on the team in FB%, he's also #1 in Pull%.  Pulling a 380 ball in the air is  a HR most every time. Hitting the same ball to dead centre is an out every time.


85bluejay - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#433327) #
Winning the division might be tough - might be better to finish as the 3rd WC and play the winner of the Central.
Petey Baseball - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#433328) #
Obviously prospects don't pan out all the time. I think Vlad teased us a bit with a Dunedin/Buffalo aided monster year in 2021. It's tough because he's become quite a good first baseman too, which hasn't been talked about enough.

At the plate he's prone to some prolonged slumps, which sap the numbers. Who knows, he (and a couple other Jays) may benefit from some more old-fashioned instruction/wisdom from a Cito Gaston/Don Mattingly type than a more analytical/swing coachy type like the current Jays hitting staff. It appears he needs a good boost of confidence to get him out of slumps quicker. Does that come from a coach whispering an opposing pitchers pitch tipping in his ear, or some other positive/simple aphorism? Who knows.

Speaking of Jays coaches, holy crap there's a lot of them on that bench.

I wonder if at this point with Atkins comments yesterday about "internal options" the clock is ticking on Cavan Biggio. This is about the ninth time I've suggested cutting loose Biggio, but with Davis Schneider being a second baseman and raking in AAA you start to wonder.
92-93 - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#433329) #
One might suggest that Guerrero becoming a good first baseman has been discussed far too much (especially by the broadcast crew), Petey Baseball. Both DRS and OAA think Vladdy is the worst defensive 1B in the game.

Glevin - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 10:50 AM EDT (#433331) #
"Houston is actually a great example. The Astros are paying Jose Abreu $58.5m from 2023-2025 to play first base, around the same as the Jays will be paying Vladdy to play the same position. So far in 2023, Abreu has been worth -0.1 WAR in 437 PA. Vladdy has been worth 0.4 WAR in 459 PA."

Houston isn't asking Abreu to be anything more than a supporting player. The team isn't built around Abreu in any way the way the Jays were built around Bo and Vlad being stars in their pre-arbitration years. Abreu falling off is disappointing but he's 36 years old so it isn't really a shock. That's more akin to Springer declining which is disappointing but not completely unexpected. Having a player halve his WAR every year from 22-24 years old is extremely rare. I really can't think of a similar case where someone looked so good at 22 and just fell apart (with no injury issues). I mean Bryce Harper followed up his sensational 197 WRC+ year with a 111 but then bounced back to 155 and that was still very odd. Vladdy is just so frustrating because he could be that player he was 2 years ago every year but there is just some mental thing that Vladdy has where he gets in his own way.
greenfrog - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 11:18 AM EDT (#433333) #
Vladdy's xwOBA in 2023 is .392, which is excellent (eighth among qualified players in MLB).

The seven players ahead of him? Acuna Jr., Ohtani, Freeman, Betts, Soto, Olson, Tucker.

The three players behind him? Trout, Tatis Jr., and Goldschmidt.

Maybe, as John N. pointed out, he has been good (but unlucky) this year after all?

Everyone loves a scapegoat, though.
uglyone - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#433334) #
The jays are one of the best hitting teams in baseball. They haven't scored enough runs because they suck with RISP. But that hasn't been a vlad problem.
soupman - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 11:25 AM EDT (#433335) #
That's what I'm seeing. I have noticed that the crew has toned down the "gold glove" talk that dominated broadcasts earlier in the season but the jays infield has been hard to watch. in my view, the main problem is Bo which is also easy to see, but i saw someone post that he's 53rd of 56 SS this year in whatever metric.

as of today the team is scoring 4.5 runs per game and allowing 4.12. I think the widespread perception of the team not being as good as it has been comes from the fact that the jays went from a run scoring team to a run prevention team. 4 teams have allowed fewer: Atlanta, Tampa, SanDiego (!), and Cleveland (who has allowed one fewer run over the year). Before last night and the 13 runs they allowed, only Tampa and SanDiego were ahead. Tampa, of course, started off by just refusing to let anyone score in the first month of the year - but have since regressed - but the Jays have just kind of ticked along. Manoah being terrible probably skewed people's thinking as well.

I'm not going to say something ridiculous like they ought to play DeJong even when Bo is healthy, because obviously that is unnecessary for the team to prevent runs. As others have indicated, most of the starters have fly ball tendencies, anyway. with the new bullpen additions, however, i think having someone like DeJong to take over SS in the 8th or 9th and maybe sliding Bo to second would be viable.

tl;dr: despite Vlad and Bo being *bad* fielders, the team is one of the best at run prevention (top 3 in baseball until last nite).
Magpie - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 11:29 AM EDT (#433336) #
It always happens that when a fan base is disappointed by the teams performance, they focus on the team's best players. The problem with the Blue Jays isn't that Springer has been mediocre and Varsho has been bad, its that Guerrero has been good and I wanted him to be a god. And there are always nine hitters in the lineup everyday and no one builds a team around a first baseman.

The biggest problem, by a freaking mile, has been the Cy Young finalist turning into an unplayable pumpkin and the ensuing domino effect on the rest of the staff.

But there are lots of games left. Let's see what happens. Bloody heat wave out here, I will be glad to get back.
Magpie - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#433337) #
Man, typing onto these little handheld devices is hard. How do people do it? I miss my desktop.
soupman - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#433338) #
The big question, to me, is: how much of the Jays struggles with RISP is "luck" and how much is approach?

I think I've found the struggles surprising given the number of guys who I would view as situational hitters in the lineup.

I noticed yesterday and the day before that the O's appear to be pitching around Vlad. Take last night: he hits EVERYTHING IN THE ZONE. He had 8 swings and 2 whiffs. The whiffs were on a sinker out of the zone and a curve.

I think people are way too down on this guy, and that's coming from me who finds his persona and fielding/baserunning antics grating. He's an elite hitter. My guess is that his wrist is still ailing.
hypobole - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#433340) #
Except Guerrero hasn't been good Magpie. His hitting has been good and the rest of his game has been bad to atrocious.
Magpie - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#433341) #
Well, I do think Guerrero's defense has been mediocre and he's made almost as many outs on the bases as Chapman. I wouldn't say "atrocious "
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#433342) #
Correct, hypobole. It's surprising that VGJ has been about as valuable as Varsho despite the latter's struggles with the bat. Both have been disappointments for different reasons.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 12:35 PM EDT (#433345) #
Man, nobody is saying Vlad is a bad player offensively. It's common knowledge he is a strong hitter and has an elite eye with elite power. He is still one of if the only prospect ever graded with a full 80 hit or power tool. Nobody needs to defend him as being a scapegoat. Nobody's making him a scapegoat. He is without question one of the two most important players on the team. He is underperforming, simple as that. Why would management or anyone else look at lesser players to pin the blame?

The fact is Vladimir Guerrero Jr does not offer anything extraordinary beyond his hitting skills and most people (correctly) do not expect more from periphery guys like Varsho, Springer and Kirk. They expect Vladdy to deliver the most because a) he's done that before b) the team is built around him and c) the other guy named Bo is carrying his weight.

"Vladdy's xwOBA in 2023 is .392, which is excellent (eighth among qualified players in MLB).

The seven players ahead of him? Acuna Jr., Ohtani, Freeman, Betts, Soto, Olson, Tucker."

Have any of those players hit a home run against a left handed pitcher this year? Still waiting for Vlad to do so.

This is very similar to Bo Bichette last year. He had a great year and turned his season around. Doesn't change the fact that he sucked for most of the year and was not delivering and was moved down into the line up and was probably responsible in large part for the firing of the manager due to performance. Nothing wrong with pointing out the facts at the time if the player isn't delivering performance wise.

Vladimir Guerrero Jr OPS by age:

20 .772
21 .791
22 1.002 (Dunedin/Buffalo stadium)
23 .818
24 .789

Bo Bichette OPS by age:
21 .930
22 .840
23 .828 (Dunedin/Buffalo stadium)
24 .802
25 .847


You can see Vlad is posting very solid numbers, and WAR shrinking does not accurately describe his value and consistency as a hitter. I give posters that, at the same time, the point remains that this team is built around this guy and he's looking more and more like an .800 OPS player with inconsistencies. That's closer to having Matt Chapman be your key cog...not the right guy to center your rebuild on. Need a guy in the .900s+ to build around and that's what everyone has been expecting.
hypobole - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 12:54 PM EDT (#433346) #
Somebody mentioned bring up Schneider to play 2nd base. Nigel has seen him more than I have, but from my looks, he seems to have become adequate in LF, but doesn't seem to have the quick twitch needed to play the infield. Ideally, the Jays would use one of Varsho's options and send him down at least for a while, but there really is no one else to play CF then but KK. With DeJong in the fold Ernie Clement could be sent down and Schneider brought up to split playing time with Varsho. Someone would have to be DFA'd though. 
Nigel - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#433347) #
hypobole - you've probably seen him play LF more than I have as he did play there some in Vancouver but he was at 2B/3B far more here. He isn't a major league 2B. He can probably play 2B in late inning situations due to a host of pinch hitting or injury but its more of a "break in case of emergency" ability than something you would really want to consider. 3B is even more of a stretch. Having said that, its time for him to be put on the roster and take some ABs from Varsho.
Chuck - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#433348) #
Having said that, its time for him to be put on the roster and take some ABs from Varsho.

I think a likelier way the team might sit Varsho would be to start Biggio at 2B and Merrifield in LF against RHP. If Biggio hits, this situation could continue. If he doesn't, back to Varsho. I'd be surprised to see a AAA player suddenly get playing time on this roster over the final two months.

uglyone - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#433349) #
overall, I don't see the jays as having been overly impacted by guys performaing worse than expected.

in general as many things have gone better offensively than expected in terms of starter types (Merrifield, Kiermaier, Belt, Chapman) as have gone worse (Kirk, Springer, Varsho, Guerrero) as have gone as expected (Bichette, Jansen).

actually we probably would have to even put Bichette in the better than expected category too to be honest.

it maybe leans a bit towards the negative when you factor in that the two guys projected to be exclusively bench guys (Biggio, Espinal) have also been worse than expected, but even that's mitigated by the fact that the emergency callups have given us near league average offensive contriutions.

Nigel - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#433350) #
Chuck, I agree with that but I was thinking more about LH starters - Merrifield at 2B, Schneider in LF and Varsho riding pine.
greenfrog - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#433351) #
The non-Vladdy players who are hitting worse than expected (Springer, Kirk, Varsho, Espinal, Biggio) are hitting *way* worse than expected. That's a pretty big problem. Most of the "better than expected" players listed are hitting around (or a bit better than) their career averages.
Chuck - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 02:48 PM EDT (#433352) #
I was thinking more about LH starters - Merrifield at 2B, Schneider in LF and Varsho riding pine.

Schneider seems to use LHP as the time to give Kiermaier his rest days, sliding Varsho into CF on those occasions. In your scenario, which would often see Varsho in CF rather than Kiermaier, Schneider would effectively be taking AB from Espinal. That may well be a good thing, but it's a different situation.

uglyone - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#433353) #
wRC+ Last year ---> This year --> Difference

* Merrifield: 88 --> 126 --> +38
* Belt: 96 --> 122 --> +26
* Kiermaier: 90 --> 109 --> +19
* Chapman: 117 --> 126 --> +9
* Bichette: 129 --> 135 --> +6

* Guerrero: 132 --> 118 --> -14
* Kirk: 129 --> 98 --> -31
* Varsho: 106 --> 74 --> -32
* Springer: 133l2 --> 95 --> -37


* Jansen: 140 --> 110 --> -30
* Biggio: 97 --> 89 --> -8
* Espinal: 99 --> 70 --> -29
soupman - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#433354) #
Vlad had a .932 OPS in the 32 games before he went out after being plonked in the wrist. he had 7HR. He's had 8 HR since June 23. Another 32 game stretch. The period after he was hit in the wrist, he was bad. If you just leave out the power outage - which can reasonably be attributed to the wrist, imo - then he's consistently been the 900 OPS guy you are talking about, and that's even with poor babip.

I think the problem has more to do with what i pointed out earlier: the O's are pitching around Vlad because they probably see what the stats show: he's basically the only guy that reliably hits in the clutch on the team. it's also evident to me, that he has been really good since before the break. maybe if he had a couple clutch game-winning hits mixed in, the ire wouldn't be so bad.

or...you can blame him having a "bad approach" for 2 months...because..."reasons" which i saw a lot of people saying was the case. i just don't buy that since there is a simpler proximate cause to why he wasn't hitting them out.
soupman - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#433355) #
The only one that I am concerned about is Varsho. Even if the career line is somewhere in the middle...is that your everyday left fielder going forward? They've put him all over the lineup and it doesn't appear to matter where he is, or what pitches he's seeing.

Springer seems to be hurt and the broadcast has pointed out how pained he looks after swinging. I don't know what you can do other than rest him more - but who knows what the issue is?



92-93 - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 03:14 PM EDT (#433356) #
Since May 24th:

Varsho 209PA 22R 5HR 17RBI .219/.274/.339
Biggio 104PA 17R 5HR 15RBI .264/.356/.473

It's a mistake that Varsho plays every day and Biggio does not. LF D just isn't that important.
chris_jays - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 03:29 PM EDT (#433357) #
I don't remotely understand the hate on Biggio this year. He had a rough first month sure but it's as if people don't look at the stats since...

I think the majority of casual fans would rather have Espinal up than Biggio which is completely the wrong decision.
Glevin - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 03:33 PM EDT (#433358) #
"or...you can blame him having a "bad approach" for 2 months...because..."reasons" which i saw a lot of people saying was the case. i just don't buy that since there is a simpler proximate cause to why he wasn't hitting them out."

I think it pretty clearly is his approach. His chase rate was 24.5% when he was hitting well and is now 30%. His BB% has gone from 87th percentile to 60th. The difference is pretty apparent when watching the games as well.
John Northey - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#433361) #
Well, bad news. Bo Bichette on IL with right patellar tendonitis. So that trade makes a TON of sense now, and was FAR more important than getting another RH bench bat. Espinal has sucked this year in every respect so despite being an all-star in 2022 he now is no more than a backup and playing everyday for 2 weeks in August was a no-go. So for the fans who hated on Bo for his defense you get what you asked for now - a high level defensive SS who has a league average bat this year and over his career (with peaks and valleys though that are extreme).
soupman - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#433363) #
His K rate is below his career average and almost exactly in line with 2021 (15.7 vs 15.8). Same is true of the walk%. Yes, he is swinging at more borderline pitches and pitches out of the zone...but he is also making contact with them and extending at bats because he isn't striking out on them. Is he not barreling the ball? No - that's still consistent. He's walking more and striking out less than last year. So, by these measures...he's actually improved over last year in terms of plate discipline and pitch selection.

I realize he is being pitched around - I'm not saying that it plays absolutely no role - but how was that not the case last year? In the 2 months immediately following the wrist injury he suffered a complete lack of power we have never seen from him sandwiched by 900+ OPS the rest of the time while overall exhibiting a better than last year (and roughly career average) set of numbers around plate discipline and pitch selection.

I think he looks a lot better (than in May/June), and I said so as soon as I saw him go opposite field late in June.
Nigel - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#433364) #
I've been on the "play Biggio over Varsho and Espinal" train for some time now. I just don't see it happening. Schneider has decided against Biggio for whatever reason.
92-93 - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 04:57 PM EDT (#433365) #
Springer bats 4th tonight ahead of Chapman and Jansen for no good reason. Move him down until he turns it around.
Nigel - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#433366) #
What has gone with far less comment is that Chapman has hit at a 95 wRC+ clip since May 1. A scorching start to the year and then very little after. Just one of the many problems with this offence. As I said several weeks ago - moving Chapman at the deadline had some logic to it.

Jansen into the clean-up spot would make a lot of sense but that is probably too "out there" for the Jays.
R Romero Vaughan - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#433367) #
I think people forget quite what an exceptional prospect Vlad was - at levels where he was 4 or 5 years younger than the average age he was putting up 2-1 BB to K and over 1.000 OPS.

He was described as a generational talent by most talent evaluators and was the top prospect in the game for 2 years.

He got a standing ovation at a Raptors game before he’d played a game for the Jays.

It’s very hard not to see what this has become as anything other than a disappointment. Opponents don’t think twice about pitching to him - and he’s barely a top 50 player in the game at this stage based on a large sample.

Somewhere along the line things haven’t gone to plan. That’s not to say this is all his fault or he’s the only problem but it’s hard to ignore the impact this is having on the team’s performance. He was truly great as a 17/18/19/20 year old and now he’s… kind of not. In trade value terms what would you get for him vs Bo- a lot less.

I wonder how things broke down quite badly for an organisation that claims to be so player development focused.



scottt - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 05:48 PM EDT (#433368) #
Bref has Biggio at -0.4 WAR and Varsho at 1.9.
Merrifield is at 1.8.

Varsho often comes close to an assist at second.
It's kinda like a stolen base where the throw in on time but the fielder misses with the tag.
Chapman has gotten really good at blocking the base with his foot while he tags at third.

scottt - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#433369) #
Varsho is the everyday center fielder going forward.
That much should be clear.
This team needs a huge bat in left field.

Other teams seem to bring rookies as platoon options.
This team needs 3 years of data to conclude that a hitter is no good without the platoon advantage.

greenfrog - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#433371) #
Nice comeback by the M’s against Boston today. The Jays have a good opportunity tonight to re-estsblish their 2.5-game lead over Boston in the WC race.
Chuck - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 07:30 PM EDT (#433372) #
Buck hates when strikes on the black are called against the Jays. No pretence at objectivity at all.
uglyone - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 07:54 PM EDT (#433373) #
yeah, but Buck is learning to love the robo ump square, so little victories.
Hodgie - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 07:56 PM EDT (#433374) #
I see it took Dejong all of 1 AB to figure out how this Jays offense works.
Chuck - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#433375) #
When he challenges the square, and is wrong, the producers don’t show him up with a replay. He loves it when it’s convenient to love it.
Nigel - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#433376) #
Full marks to Kikutchi. This last two months is probably the most consistently good that he has been since he came to North America. I was wrong about him - I didn't think that he had it in him.
greenfrog - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#433377) #
Is this the fearsome elite offense we’ve been discussing in this thread? Or is it time to “give credit” to the opposing pitcher again?
greenfrog - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 08:13 PM EDT (#433378) #
All snark aside, it’s good to see Springer get a hit and an RBI in an important situation. He needed that.
Chuck - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 08:56 PM EDT (#433379) #
Nuke Laloosh is in the building. Tell the mascot to duck.
92-93 - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 09:01 PM EDT (#433380) #
Maybe DeJong should take a pitch. According to Caleb Joseph on the radio broadcast, if you swing at the first pitch after a lead off HBP or CI you hit into a DP around 35% of the time.
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#433381) #
Grayson Rodriguez is charged with 2 earned runs that inning and Fujinami none. It obviously has little to do with how they pitched.
greenfrog - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#433382) #
You know times are tough when the only way you can cash in runners in scoring position is by getting HBP with 95-100 MPH fastballs and relying on opposing fielders to boot the ball.
greenfrog - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 09:27 PM EDT (#433383) #
Hicks looked fantastic in the seventh. The DP was karma after the ump blew the call on what should have been strike three on Mountcastle.
jerjapan - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 09:29 PM EDT (#433384) #
Man, Hicks is fun to watch!

I remember the first time I ever saw a guy hit 100. Nolan Ryan.

Per Dan, three guys have already hit 100 in this game alone. Wild
Chuck - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 09:32 PM EDT (#433385) #
The DP was karma after the ump blew the call on what should have been strike three on Mountcastle.

Or... the 2nd pitch, which was a ball called a strike (getting zero commentary from the broadcast team), meant that the plate appearance should have ended in a walk long before the blown strike three call.

greenfrog - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 09:35 PM EDT (#433386) #
What? That pitch was a strike, I think.
Chuck - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 09:37 PM EDT (#433387) #
It was called a strike. It was a few inches low.
uglyone - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 09:41 PM EDT (#433388) #
maybe keep Belt at 1B.
greenfrog - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 09:46 PM EDT (#433389) #
“It was a few inches low”

Evidence of this?
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#433390) #
Jordan Hicks un-retires uniform number 12.

Paul DeJong sports number 10.

And # 50 earns the save!
Nigel - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 09:50 PM EDT (#433391) #
The traditional 4 runs on three hits game. Ho hum:)
Chuck - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#433392) #
Evidence of this?

I watched the game. The ball was clearly below the box. You want I should get a signed confession from the umpire?

greenfrog - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 10:02 PM EDT (#433393) #
Nope, just the Baseball Savant pitch chart for that PA -- which shows that Hicks's second pitch to Mountcastle was fully in the strike zone.
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 10:11 PM EDT (#433394) #
Mirandized and signed confession on the same day at the Box. Go easy, peeps. I'm retired.
Magpie - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 10:11 PM EDT (#433395) #
I didn't watch, but GameDay had it definitely below the zone.

I am confused but relieved.
Nigel - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 10:47 PM EDT (#433396) #
In live action I thought it was a ball. I haven’t checked any sources.

Hicks definitely looked the part of a high leverage reliever. There’s the makings of a bullpen here that could win a WC “bullpen game” as often happens.
hypobole - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 11:09 PM EDT (#433397) #
As for the bullpen, Chad Green 1.2 scoreless IP for Buffalo. 1 H, 0 BB, 2K.
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 11:17 PM EDT (#433398) #
The staff ace improves his record to 9 - 3 with a delightful 3 ⅔ ERA.
Nigel - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 11:30 PM EDT (#433399) #
If Green were to arrive at something approaching his former self then you can see the roll on effect (along with the Hicks acquisition). A week ago, Garcia was the 2nd or 3rd high leverage RH arm. That’s a middling pen and not going to cut it for a playoff roster. Now he might be the 4th or 5th leverage RH arm. Now you have something in a best of 3 series. As a likely WC team, the pen takes on oversized importance. Promising.
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, August 02 2023 @ 11:52 PM EDT (#433402) #
L-C quit drinking. best wishes to Domingo Germán.
John Northey - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 12:08 AM EDT (#433404) #
With Hicks and Green soon returning what is the future pen? 7 man for now, 8 if they cut the starters to 5, 9 in the playoffs?

Locks: (7) Romano-Hicks-Green-Swanson-Richards-Mayza-Garcia
Strong Contenders: (3) Cabrera-Jackson-Pearson
On the edge: (3) Francis-Pop-Hatch (well, all 40 man guys at least with ML time this year, other pitchers on it are Danner & Zulueta).

Of course, whoever is cut from the playoff rotation will have a shot (Manoah & Ryu right now) but most likely not. I'd bet on Cabrera being #8 with Pearson #9 while Jackson would be seriously debated over Pearson depending how they both do in August/September. Francis making it wouldn't shock me as a long man just in case. If Manoah or Ryu can pitch like they did in the past (ie: Cy level) then Bassitt might be the odd man out right now given how Kikuchi has been pitching. I'd say only Gausman and Berrios are locks for the rotation right now. Bassitt is a near lock as is Kikuchi. Up to Manoah & Ryu to force the Jays into a tough but good situation of too many good starting pitchers. In the WC it'll be down to 3 starters which means the 3rd guy will be whoever matches up best with the opponent (3rd/4th that way for ALDS/ALCS/WS). August/September will be fun with these side battles going on along with the Jays trying to lock in a playoff slot - shooting for AL East lead but that'll be damn hard after losing the first 2 to the O's this week - today helped a LOT though (critical to win at least one, hopefully 2 of this 4 game set).
uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 01:00 AM EDT (#433407) #
Figure Genesis has the edge but JJ might push him. Nate is out i think.

And yeah 2 of the starters are likely in the pen too.
scottt - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 05:56 AM EDT (#433410) #
On an extra day of rest, Kikuchi was excellent.

Weird game. KK had 2 balls coming out of his glove. I didn't think I'd ever see that.
The pick up to end the game was ridiculous.

They should just keep rotating the guys with options at the end of the pen.
Eventually, they'll have to pick between Ryu and Manoah.
Neither is fit for the pen but Manoah could go down to AAA, in case somebody can't make his start.
Huge start in Fenway for Manoah on Friday.

I expect they'll stick to the 6-man until the day of on the 14th.

bpoz - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 09:23 AM EDT (#433414) #
We have a nice enough position in the standings. Close enough to get the best record in the AL. With Boston, NYY, LAA and Seattle so close behind we are still in danger of missing the playoffs. But will a respectable record.

So I will be cheering for the above 4 teams chasing us to lose!!
uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 09:30 AM EDT (#433415) #
Kikuchi has been excellent regardless of days of rest.

And Manoah and Ryu are both obviously fit for a pen in need of long men, who is currently shuffling AAAA relievers up and down to try and fill out the pen.
Chuck - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 09:31 AM EDT (#433416) #
Ryan Mountcastle, career:

vs Tor: 330/394/643
vs others: 251/301/435

The Blue Jays are keeping him in the majors.

scottt - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 09:47 AM EDT (#433417) #
I think someone with time on his hands could determine what it is the Jays are doing wrong against Mountcastle. Plan of attack? Pitching sequence?
I know they don't elevate enough against Santander.
Overall, I get the impression that the Jays pitch inside more than other teams.

As I predicted, Thornton is back in MLB.
He faced 8 Boston hitters and retired 7 with 3 strikeouts.

ERA on the year is now 1.17.

I can't imagine why we kept Hatch instead.
Because Mitch White had the long relief covered?

I hope they give at least an inning in September to all the relievers on the 40. 


Ryan Day - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 10:03 AM EDT (#433418) #
The Jays should offer Tiedemann for Mountcastle, and then sign him to a long-term deal. Even if he turns back into a pumpkin, they could at least avoid ever having to pitch to him again.

That, or just start giving him the Ohtani treatment and walk him you're winning or losing by less 6.
Hodgie - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 10:22 AM EDT (#433419) #
The Mountcastle curse has really morphed into something to behold. To expand on Chuck's numbers for Mountcastle's career:
  • vs. Jays - 203 AB, 184 wRC+
  • vs. rest of MLB - 1446 AB, 100 wRC+
    Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#433421) #
    MLB single-season records for 1 player vs. 1 team:

    Hitters
    Hits - 52 - Joe DiMaggio (1936 Yankees) vs. St. Louis Browns
    HR - 14 - Lou Gehrig (1936 Yankees) vs. Cleveland
    RBI - 43 - Hank Greenberg (1937 Tigers) vs. St. Louis Browns
    SB - 27 - Clyde Milan (1912 Senators) vs. Cleveland

    Pitchers
    Wins - 9 - Walter Johnson (1908 Senators) vs. White Sox; Ed Walsh (1908 White Sox) vs. Red Sox & Yankees; Ed Reulbach (1908 Cubs) vs. Brooklyn
    K - 73 - Walter Johnson (1910 Senators) vs. St. Louis Browns
    Saves - 11 - Armando Benitez (2004 Marlins) vs. Mets

    ISLAND BOY - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#433422) #
    I think the Jays should give him the Ohtani treatment at this point.
    Gerry - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#433425) #
    Trevor Richards has been placed on the IL with a neck issue.

    Bowden Francis is back.
    92-93 - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 12:59 PM EDT (#433430) #
    When was the last time a Jays game ended on a pickoff?
    Katie - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#433433) #
    I'd bet on Cabrera being #8 with Pearson #9 while Jackson would be seriously debated over Pearson depending how they both do in August/September.

    Obviously if one performs better than the other in August/September, that changes the equation, but right now i can't see any justification at all for keeping Pearson over Jackson. And I'd probably take Jackson over Cabrera, depending on the makeup of the other team's lineup. Perhaps I'm still reliving Pearson's last major league appearance, but I know who I'd feel comfortable on the mound in an important outing.

    Nigel - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 01:57 PM EDT (#433434) #
    I think you'd take the 2 LH reliever into the postseason every day in that scenario.
    John Northey - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 02:09 PM EDT (#433435) #
    Agreed Katie - I prefer Jackson too over those 2 but feel the Jays seem to have Jackson below them for some reason. Pearson is a guy who seems to have all the skills but never quite makes it - the same slot Merryweather was in last year and before that (FYI: he has now been in 46 games with a 126 ERA+ 11.9 K/9 4.2 BB/9 9 holds, 1 blsv, 3-0 record).
    John Northey - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#433436) #
    Huh - here is a shocker, the ump yesterday was nearly perfect - no called strikes that weren't strikes, 3 times called a ball when it was a strike. Amazingly good.

    Biggest error was ball 4 to Mountcastle by Hicks - it was a strike. #2 was Kikuchi to Mountcastle 0-0 pitch was a strike called a ball, #3 was a pitch to Vlad that was a strike but called a ball in the first inning on a 0-1 count.
    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#433437) #
    * 1. Romano
    * 2. Green
    * 3. Swanson
    * 4. Mayza
    * 5. Hicks
    * 6. Richards
    * 7. Garcia

    Of course we have some lingering doubts about Green until he comes up and shows he's ok, but considering both his history and the fact that his rehab has gone like this so far: 5.0ip, 35.3k%, 00.0b%, .176avg/.273babip, 0.00era, 1.33fip, I'm thinking he's probably a lock for the playoffs pen even if he has some performance bumps the rest of the way.

    Garcia is also not a 100% for sure lock but i'd still give him a 90+% sure lock status.

    So yeah I agree with the consensus locks here.

    Pearson simply hasn't been good enough, and no longer brings anything unique to the bullpen to qualify him. He'd have to start dominating right away and stay that way in order to make the final cut I think. I doubt it happens.

    Jackson....well, he's been awesome, but no matter how awesome he's been, I'm not sure we ever can or want to trust him in the playoffs based on his history and stuff. I get flashbacks of latroy hawkins, even though he had a much better track record than Jackson, but at that point was getting good results despite very iffy stuff....and then got blown all the way up in the playoffs. I don't know that he can do anything during the regular season to earn a playoffs spot, unless a bunch of others blow up along the way.

    Cabrera you gotta think Schneider wants to put in the pen as a fireballing lefty, but I doubt they consider him a lock at this point. He'll have to keep proving it. But they'll give him plenty of slack I think and every chance to make it.

    IMO of course the best options are most likely to be the 2 starters that can't crack the 4-man rotation. Not just because they're most likely the best pitchers by a good margin, but also because you really want the freedom to yank a an SP early in a playoffs game if he doesn't have it, and of course even better if you can avoid as many iffy 3rd-time-through-the-order situations as possible in the playoffs - so having 2 quality starters as long men in your playoffs pen is just a fantastic luxury to have, and I don't think they will pass it up unless those SP struggle really badly the rest of the way.


    Though if those backend SP keep pitching very well and become no-brainer picks to complete the bullpen, then suddenly Garcia's spot i think gets a bit iffier, with Cabrera's leftiness becoming more attractive there.
    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#433438) #
    hey John do you know where to find the season-long Ump stats by team?
    92-93 - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 02:35 PM EDT (#433439) #
    The Jays are 2 games up on Boston in the loss column, which is effectively a 1 game lead because the Red Sox have the tie-breaker, so I love that we are discussing the playoff bullpen. Optimistic bunch!

    If the season ended today, I would use Kikuchi over Bassitt in one of the wild card games.

    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 02:38 PM EDT (#433440) #
    we're also closer to Houston than we are to Boston tho.
    Nigel - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 02:45 PM EDT (#433441) #
    Agreed 92-93. At this time last year, who would have thought that Berrios and Kikutchi have a good shot at being 2 of 3 WC game starters? If its close between Kikutchi and Bassitt from a performance perspective, starting a LH just creates so many problems for an opposing manager with the way the Jays' pen sets up.
    hypobole - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#433442) #
    Tough Rangers debut for Max. 3 runs on 3 hits and 2 walks in the first. 3 more hits in the 2nd, luckily a DP sandwiched in.  56 pitches after 2. 3-1 White Sox.
    Nigel - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#433443) #
    Today is a perfect example of a game that Biggio should be playing in and Varsho should be sitting. Hopefully, my running Varsho down will result in a negative jinx:)
    92-93 - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 02:58 PM EDT (#433444) #
    Or even for Belt or Merrifield, both of whom are 1/10 with 0 XBH against Flaherty.

    Varsho's gotta run into one at some point soon, though. He can't be this (.160/.213/.200 in 82PA since July 1st) bad.
    92-93 - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 03:02 PM EDT (#433445) #
    Varsho is 18/108 in 117PA with 40K and 5BB since his last HR. Yikes.
    99BlueJaysWay - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#433446) #
    The Jays playoff odds sit at 68% on fangraphs. Red Sox are at 23%.

    Talking about the playoff bullpen may be premature, but it’s not optimistic.
    99BlueJaysWay - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 03:08 PM EDT (#433447) #
    Also, there was an article today about the Sox looking to trade Turner to Miami. I think that’s telling in terms of how they see their chances
    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#433449) #
    fair enough that he doesn't face lefties, but Belt has legit elite ever since that slow 1st couple weeks coming back from that big injury.
    greenfrog - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#433450) #
    Pathetic first inning for the Jays after the leadoff hit and walk. As Buck pointed out, it was questionable for Vladdy to swing at the first pitch. Then Springer struck out on a hittable breaking ball over the plate. Then Chapman took three fastballs over the plate for called strikes. Inning over, no runs scored.
    Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 03:36 PM EDT (#433451) #
    Ryan Lee Mountcastle practices witch-craft.
    Nigel - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#433452) #
    The O's have just repeatedly extended AB's, fouled off pitches, generally ground down and made life difficult for the Jays' RH starters all series. They are basically knocking Gausman out early this inning.
    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#433453) #
    Romano and Richards down. Gausman not likely to last long in this one. Bullpen's gonna look pretty ragged at the end of today, without many recall options. 6 man rotation at stake.

    Gausman doesn't seem to be benefitting from the extended rest anyways, tho.
    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#433454) #
    varsho's arm saves us a very big inning.
    greenfrog - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#433455) #
    The Jays and O's had identical situations in the last two half-innings. Runners on first and third with one out. Two very different outcomes.
    Nigel - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 03:51 PM EDT (#433456) #
    Man, would I like to be Rutschman's agent.
    Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#433457) #
    Officially dog days of summer.
    Chuck - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#433458) #
    Springer writes left handed (per a commercial) but throws right handed. This strikes me as a little unusual. I wonder if this is more prominent than I would have guessed. Any of you lot fall into this category?
    Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#433459) #
    L-C writes left and throws right.
    Eephus - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#433460) #
    I throw right handed but play guitar with my left. And while my right is my dominant writing hand I can actually switch to lefty and be perfectly legible (I just write slower is all)
    Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#433461) #
    Rickey bats right and throws left.
    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#433462) #

    TOR OPS+

    * INN 1-3: 101
    * INN 4-6: 99
    * INN 7-9: 113
    * EXTRAS: 125
    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#433463) #
    eyeballing these splits:

    * INN 1-7: 95ops+
    * INN 8+: 128ops+
    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#433464) #
    actually innings 1-7 looks more like 97ops+.
    Eephus - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#433465) #
    First time I’ve watched in a week… have all of our hitters looked this lost all series? This is horrible to behold. A two run deficit is feeing like game over already.
    dalimon5 - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 04:31 PM EDT (#433466) #
    Yeah it's why everyone was pining for a RHH at the deadline who could slot into the top of the line up.

    RE: Springer handedness for writing. It's not uncommon to flip/flop a shot while editing a commercial. It can take a right handed George and make him look left handed. Happens all the time in the TV world.
    Eephus - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#433467) #
    This is so much like the 2016 team it’s almost funny. A talented squad way less than the sum of its parts, with a great pitching staff, that will likely have to sneak into a post season spot.

    That 2016 team wasn’t a whole lot of fun to watch at times either, but that was nothing like this. Maybe I’m just getting older and less tolerant of certain things.
    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#433468) #
    easy safe.
    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#433469) #
    vladdy gidp odds here?
    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 05:07 PM EDT (#433470) #
    vladdy battled that at bat. those were some tough pitches.
    SK in NJ - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#433471) #
    This offense is infuriating to watch sometimes.
    99BlueJaysWay - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#433472) #
    Why use Francis for 5 batters? That makes no sense.

    Now bringing in Hatch? Wtf is going on?
    Gerry - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 05:28 PM EDT (#433473) #
    Davis Schneider is not in the Buffalo lineup today. There are rumours that he will meet the Jays in Boston.
    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 05:29 PM EDT (#433474) #
    still have a chance to win this one despite being outhit 11-4.

    get her done somehow, dumdums.
    greenfrog - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 05:30 PM EDT (#433475) #
    Varsho had the fifth-worst wRC+ (73) among qualified hitters in MLB entering today's game. He's 0/2 today.
    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 05:31 PM EDT (#433476) #
    manager really pulling out the stops to give us an Espinal-Dejong-Clement inning.
    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 05:38 PM EDT (#433477) #
    and just like that, our rested bullpen is now overworked.
    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 05:39 PM EDT (#433478) #
    and game.
    BlueJayWay - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#433479) #
    Rumours that Davis Schneider has been called up, and then he wasn't in the Bisons lineup.
    Nigel - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#433480) #
    Its hard to score too many runs when your starting line-up includes 4 players with an OPS under .700 and then add in a pinch hitter similarly under .700. Its a weak bunch.
    dalimon5 - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#433481) #
    As bad as the players are performing this management or manager are pushing all the wrong buttons.
    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#433482) #
    francis/hatch because who cares about trying to win.
    dalimon5 - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#433483) #
    Also: mark this as the day I stopped believing in Shapiro and his FO. Watching his team get demolished by BAL who is in much better position long term makes me realize how poor he has done considering two things:

    1) TOR and BAL were in similar positions in 2016

    2) TOR retooled and spent a ton of money while BAL sucked and rebuilt for long term

    Half a decade later and it's clear to me which FO did the better job. I wouldnt want to be Rogers after seeing these two teams square off.
    lexomatic - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 06:07 PM EDT (#433484) #
    I think Springer has to go on the IL. Sub 700 OPS?
    Doesn't matter there's "nobody" else.
    greenfrog - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 06:09 PM EDT (#433485) #
    I’m not convinced this team is going to make the postseason. Odds are they will, because the teams chasing them aren’t that great, but it’s entirely conceivable that they will sputter to a non-WC finish.
    James W - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 06:11 PM EDT (#433486) #
    Nigel - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 06:14 PM EDT (#433487) #
    I know this will frustrate some, but this O's team is really good. Good teams make you look bad sometimes. I still think that this is solidly a WC team (but unfortunately no more).
    Marc Hulet - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#433488) #
    Even if Davis Schneider is called up, I have zero faith John Schneider will use him. There have been multiple opportunities to use Clement and his contact skills... And Nada.
    ISLAND BOY - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 06:27 PM EDT (#433489) #
    The Orioles are good because they can execute offensively. Man on second with no outs - they find a way to get him to third. Man on third, less than two outs- they find a way to score him. The difference between the two clubs couldn't be more stark.

    The Jays had the bases loaded in the 6th and one out. Did anyone watching really expect them to score? Game after game they fail to come up with a big hit with runners on base and that's what makes them unlikeable. They're just too darn predictable.
    99BlueJaysWay - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 06:31 PM EDT (#433490) #
    They’re very good, you’re right Nigel. But to me that doesn’t excuse the results vs the O’s starters. They’re very much not good, and they breezed through. It’s one thing to lose, it’s quite another to get rolled by 4 starters with a collective era of like 4.5
    uglyone - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 06:33 PM EDT (#433491) #

    Head to Head

    * BAL: .800w%, +2.9 runs per game
    * TOR: .200w%, -2.9 runs per game


    Vs Everyone else

    * BAL: .596w%, +0.3 runs per game
    * TOR: .580w%, +0.7 runs per game





    Nigel - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 06:43 PM EDT (#433492) #
    Oh I'm not defending the Jays' offence at all. I've been pushing back against the idea that this was anything other than a mediocre offensive team all season. And, I agree, that the difference in approach at the plate (for whatever reason) was pretty stark between the two teams. The O's were grinding out ABs in a pretty impressive way - led by Rutschman.
    SK in NJ - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 06:47 PM EDT (#433493) #
    I have the same fear as Marc regarding a potential Davis Schneider call up. I'd be shocked if he played regularly. John Schneider doesn't play the bench much, and the last guy on the bench specifically has been used to basically fill up a spot in the dugout all season. There is a difference between a career minor leaguer (Lukes/Clement) and an actual prospect, so maybe John will be told to play Davis more, but I'll have to see it to believe it.

    In some ways I feel this team is better equipped to handle the playoffs with the bullpen the way it is and can potentially be once everyone is healthy, but even then I don't think this offense as is can hit good pitching regularly enough to make any noise if they got in. I'd love it if they put Schneider in LF full time and used Varsho as the 4th OF. Worst case you see little change, best case you improve from a 70 wRC+ LF and maybe get some punch back into the lineup. If Barger could play even a below average shortstop, then I'd probably platoon him and DeJong as well until Bichette came back, but I imagine his D at SS isn't good enough to try that in a playoff race down the stretch.

    The Orioles are in a significantly better place from top to bottom than the Jays are and it's not even close. The only advantage the Jays have over them is better ownership, but the Orioles may not need it for a few years with the way they have developed talent.
    99BlueJaysWay - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 07:06 PM EDT (#433494) #
    I’m frustrated. I just don’t understand the approach for the hitters and what their plan in.

    Today Vlad flared an inside, 92 mph fastball the other way. Should he be pulling an launching a pitch like that? Isn’t that a big strength of his? Aiming the other way regardless of where it’s pitched is insanity. Just as bad as Springer trying to pull everything outside
    Marc Hulet - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#433495) #
    Clement's not exactly a career minor leaguer. He had a decent college career and was drafted in the fourth round. He spent most of 2022 in the majors but didn't play much as a rookie and that hurt him. He hit more than .350 this year in a good number of ABs at AAA with as many HRs as strikeouts (right). He'd potentially bring the high contact and OBP skills that Toronto sorely needs. There have been a number of 26-28 year olds that have come up to the majors and been productive... Good teams will still give those types of players a shot. Brent Rooker and Ryan Noda are recent examples... Christian Walker...

    At this point, it would hurt to give him 3-4 games in a row to see what he can or cannot do.
    85bluejay - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 07:22 PM EDT (#433496) #
    How 'bout them Orioles? Built for a long run I think (83-93 Jays?)
    GabrielSyme - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#433497) #
    I agree with the assessment that this is a team that is less than the sum of its parts. While on the whole the pitching staff has been as good as could reasonably be expected, there are simply too many disappointments in the lineup. Perhaps that's odd to say, since the team wRC+ is a pretty good 108, but I think it's still the case. While we've had some overperformances from Whit and KK, and a nice season from Bo, the performances of three key players: Vladdy, Varsho and Springer are way under what we expected to get from them. It's hard to make up for that.
    Gerry - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 07:34 PM EDT (#433498) #
    The Jays looked so bad against Baltimore that often GM's want to change something. And that something is usually the manager. You have to wonder that if the Jays don't look better in Boston could Schneider be on the hot seat. A lot might depend on whether Don Mattingly is willing to take the job.

    Schneider has been groomed by the organization and that counts for a lot. However he has shown his inexperience last year and this. Is he improving?

    Was he a good minor league manager or did he have good players like Bo and Vladdy?
    John Northey - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 07:51 PM EDT (#433499) #
    Right now the biggest problem is the Jays are snakebit. Against everyone but Baltimore they are 58-42 - a 94 win pace. But vs the O's they are 2-8, a 32 win pace, better than the Cleveland Spiders of 1899, but worse than the 1962 Mets and this years A's. Mix in the 0-7 vs Boston and you get a 2-15 record for a 118 win% or 19 win pace (worse than the 1899 Spiders). Obviously the Jays aren't _that_ bad as vs everyone else they are 58-35 or a 101 win pace. Just 3 more vs Baltimore this year, 6 vs Boston. Hopefully the dumb luck gods come to the Jays defense soon and things start going better. Vlad needs those hard hit balls to start going over the fence more often or at least landing where no one already is. Springer needs more bloops to land. etc.

    My biggest issue is the manager putting Springer 4th still - he broke that 0-35 stretch yesterday but is 0-4 since (with 2 walks) so 1 for his last 40. That has no place in a ML lineup, let along batting cleanup. My #2 issue is having Espinal hit for anyone - as that is a big insult to any ML hitter right now. Before today, Varsho vs LHP had a respectable 297/361/359 line this year. Those bunts really help. Espinal had a 224/288/328 line. Why on earth would you let Espinal hit for Varsho if you had clue one on those stats (and I have to think Schneider knows them)? Especially in a situation where you need a baserunner? I think calling up Davis Schneider from AAA (969 OPS) and sending Espinal down would be a good idea right now, just to remove that temptation away from John Schneider.
    dalimon5 - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 08:07 PM EDT (#433500) #
    I expect this FO to cut Schneider lose if things dont improve fast as it'll be Atkins to go if this team misses the playoffs or exits like last year.

    If Montoyo lost the room then I don't know what you call this. This series the players looked extra deflated after the trade deadline.
    krose - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 08:08 PM EDT (#433501) #
    The team has consistently looked mediocre for quite a while. Although it’s an odd mediocre. I‘ve been hoping to see an infusion of minor leaguers for quite some time. But even when they’re up they don’t have a chance to find out if they can manage big league pitching. Also don’t understand the place Biggio seems to have. Even when he’s doing well he sits! Lineup construction, pen usage; I dunno. Seems like maybe a change in leadership could help.
    Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 09:09 PM EDT (#433502) #
    Toronto slips into the playoffs.
    scottt - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 09:15 PM EDT (#433503) #
    I'm inclined to point at the hitting coach, but it's probably not the time to change things.
    When they were good in 2021, they were swinging early in the count.

    Because they are in a long stretch without break, it's relatively easy to get ABs for Biggio/Schneider/whoever.
    Scheduled rest days!
    However, it's probably not going to make a huge difference unless these guys show some pop because they'll be hitting in the bottom of the order.

    Four Seamer - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#433504) #
    If Schneider was coaching my kid’s little league team, I would move across town to avoid him, but I’m not sure that there’s a lot he can do when stuck with a bunch of “hitters” like the current group. He should walk the plank either now or during the off-season, but apart from the dead cat bounce you often get on a managerial change I wouldn’t expect Mattingly or anyone else to get a whole lot out of this squad unless the myriad of underperformers on this teams magically and mysteriously return to form.
    dalimon5 - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 09:36 PM EDT (#433505) #
    Here's a few things a forward thinking manager could do right away:

    * Get Vladdy protection which he hasn't had since Teoscar was here.

    * Move off the "these are my guys" mentality. Play Biggio more and Varsho less.

    Guerrero
    Belt
    Merrifield
    Biggio
    Jansen/Kirk
    Dejong
    Kiermaier
    Chapman
    Springer

    Thats the line up i'd run out tomorrow to shake things up.
    John Northey - Thursday, August 03 2023 @ 11:57 PM EDT (#433508) #
    If I was trying to shake it up I wouldn't go that far,
    1. Merrifield - has done well, likes to lead off, keep him there as a reward.
    2. Vlad - even a poor hitting Vlad is damn good, maybe he will relax more in his old position.
    3. Belt - need a LH early in the order
    4. Jansen - his power has been solid, as has his RBI'ing - reward that with the cleanup slot
    5. Chapman - still hitting OK (last 28 before today an 860 OPS)
    6. DeJong - has some power in the past, might be a good slot for him
    7. Varsho - his confidence is in the toilet I'd figure (433 OPS past 28 days)
    8. Springer - hasn't hit for awhile (513 OPS past 28 days), remove the pressure
    9. KK - yeah, hitting better than Springer but just a 668 OPS the past 28 days so leave him where he is comfortable.
    I'd probably look at mixing in Schneider for Varsho in the lineup, when Kirk plays he'd bat 5th, Chapman 4th. Biggio when he goes in would just take the slot of whoever he fills in for - I'd probably give Springer a few days off to rest up as he clearly has something wrong right now (hiding an injury maybe?) as his bat has never been this bad afaik.

    So platoon Springer/Biggio, Varsho/Schneider for now and see what happens.
    scottt - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 06:04 AM EDT (#433510) #
    Apparently Schneider is on his way up.
    He plays LF/2B/3B.

    Merrifield has been one the best hitter lately.
    Can't really do anything with SS and catcher.
    Belt and Guerrero are hitting.

    I guess you can rotate Varsho and KK at CF and do a defensive replacement if winning.
    Can probably give Chapman a day off once a week.
    Should probably sit Springer a couple of days a week, but that's maybe more a spot for Biggio.

    Coming up 3 in Fenway, 4 in Cleveland and back to host the Cubs.

    bpoz - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 06:33 AM EDT (#433511) #
    When you have the history of Boston success is expected. When you have the payroll of NYY and Toronto success is expected. The V good success of Baltimore and TB has given the other 3 teams something to think about. Specifically they must think about how to beat 2 teams that are built to win about 95 games.

    All 5 teams have to plan/strategize how to compete in the V tough AL East. Someone has to lose out.

    Regarding the Jays nobody including the FO expected KK & Varsho to match the O of Gurriel and especially Teo. It seems that is what is happening. We complained about the D of Teo & Gurriel now we are complaining about the O of KK & Varsho.
    tercet - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 07:31 AM EDT (#433512) #
    What's the consensus on Schneider? If he is a league average hitter we should be happy?
    85bluejay - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 09:08 AM EDT (#433513) #
    What happens if the Jays get swept this Weekend in Boston?
    dalimon5 - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 09:35 AM EDT (#433514) #
    Likely Schneider is out and Mattingly in with leas "khaki" interference in the day to day.
    Mike Green - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 09:50 AM EDT (#433515) #
    "What happens this weekend if Boston sweeps the Blue Jays?"

    1. We dump a tanker of Maple syrup in their harbour.

    2. We send the Intercounty Maple Leafs to play the next series in Boston.

    3. We arrange for Taylor Swift to play a 6 month long residency at Fenway in 2024.
    Leaside Cowboy - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 10:01 AM EDT (#433516) #
    the Intercounty Maple Leafs

    " They're up for sale if you want them. "

    Meanwhile, the names on the uniforms could become " D. Schneider " and " J. Schneider. "

    hypobole - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 10:02 AM EDT (#433517) #
    Has anyone else seen him play this year? At the plate, he seems much like a RH Biggio with a bit more bat speed.. Doesn't have the arm strength or quick twitch for the infield, but has looked solid in LF.
    92-93 - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 10:03 AM EDT (#433518) #
    Blasphemy, Mike. Christie Pits is the only place you can go to watch some offense.
    Leaside Cowboy - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#433519) #
    Leaside Leafs have some hitters. The official Leaside Park is actually in Thorncliffe Park, near the DVP. The centre-field view of downtown is spectacular.
    uglyone - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 10:27 AM EDT (#433520) #
    RH Biggio would be very nice, especially if it's first couple seasons early Biggio before the league found his weaknesses.

    and the stats profile does match Biggio's quite nicely.
    dalimon5 - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 10:27 AM EDT (#433521) #
    Imagine if the Jays signed Justin Turner and moved him to 2B or DH.
    lexomatic - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 10:34 AM EDT (#433522) #
    Merrifield has been one the best hitter lately.

    Since July 1 he is 2nd on the team to Chapman in fWAR at 0.9 (4.5 -5+ full season pace roughly)

    But he leads the team with 7 HR in those 25 games. Great stretch for him, but so bad for the rest of the power hitters on this team.
    scottt - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 10:52 AM EDT (#433523) #
    Chapman had  3 hits against the Dodgers, 2 against the Angels and only 1 in the 4 games against the Orioles.
    Since the start of the Dodgers series, his batting average has gone done every single day from .262 to .254.

    I wouldn't hesitate to sit him once a week if that improved the offense.
     
    Ducey - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 11:05 AM EDT (#433524) #
    They cant sit Chapman as they dont have anyone that can play a credible 3B.

    I am happy Schneider will get called up. Unfortunately, the Skip doesnt play the kids. He likely will sit on the bench or get spot duty rather than any kind of shot.

    If it was up to me, he would play each of the games against BOS with Varsho/ Springer getting some time off.
    scottt - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 11:08 AM EDT (#433525) #
    Second base doesn't require arm strength or quick twitch.
    A misplay at second cost one base, a misplay in LF cost 2 or more bases.

    Baltimore won the first game of the series because of an outfield play late in the game.

    Ultimately, the Jays need more good left bats/platoons.
    All the talks regarding a right bat came from Belt not playing against lefties and Kirk not hitting enough to DH.
    I'd welcome an extra left bat come September.

    uglyone - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 11:10 AM EDT (#433526) #
    Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

    Yes, Chapman "only" has a mediocre 95wrc+ the past 7 days, but he has a 133 the last 14 days and a 145 the last 30 days, along with his 125 for the season and 125 for the last calendar year and 120 career.

    You don't bench what's consistently one of your best hitters because he was only average for a week.
    Mike Green - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 11:23 AM EDT (#433527) #
    The suggestion was that Chapman might need a little more rest. Chapman has played in 106 out of the club's 109 games. It's probably a good idea for him to have a day off per month, given that he's 30. A day off in the middle of 17 games in a row in August is a reasonable place to start.

    He's such a good player- hits, plays good D, runs well. What more could you ask for?
    Gerry - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 11:29 AM EDT (#433528) #
    Maybe a Davis Schneider/Daulton Varsho platoon in left field?
    uglyone - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#433529) #
    Sure but Chapman was literally red hot before this series. 3 excellent series in a row before this one. There's no reason to think he's tired or even slumping.
    Nigel - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#433530) #
    I think hypobole covers Schneider nicely. Probably a bit more power and a bit less strike zone control than Biggio. He should get some ABs in the OF.
    Joe - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#433531) #
    A neighbour was upset that Chapman didn't bunt with the bases loaded yesterday, and I didn't really have anything to say. First off, bunt those sliders? Secondly, Chapman should bunt?!
    Nigel - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 12:26 PM EDT (#433532) #
    On the radio they were highlighting the following - in the past 4 games the Jays got a total of 18 hits and Ryan Mountcastle all by his lonesome had 12 hits. So, yeah, there's that.
    hypobole - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#433533) #
    Schneider up. Jackson back. Clement optioned. Hatch DFA'd.
    92-93 - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 12:37 PM EDT (#433534) #
    I don't think the manager sets the lineup, so it would be surprising if the people calling the shots brought Schneider up to not play. I think the playing time decisions based on swing planes vs. pitch types are coming from above, people with little feel for the game. There's just no way Schneider would be rolling Varsho out there everyday.
    Nigel - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 12:45 PM EDT (#433535) #
    I've said this for several months now - what manager would cross his bosses when it comes to a situation like playing Varsho? They traded a top 10 prospect in all of baseball for him. It was the FO's signature offseason move. Blaming Schneider for playing Varsho is unreasonable.
    uglyone - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 12:48 PM EDT (#433536) #
    so we have a situation where the manager defers decision making to the FO, and the FO defers decision making to ownership.

    hypobole - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 01:07 PM EDT (#433537) #
    Batters Box - where opinion becomes fact.
    Varsho is a managers dream in a lot of ways. Always hustles, rarely misplays or makes poor decisions. Teachers pet type. Colour me very skeptical management is telling him to play Varsho every day. Now maybe Schneider thinks his job security is better losing and playing Varsho than losing and benching Varsho. If management wants Biggio rotting on the bench why didn't they get rid of him?
    uglyone - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#433538) #
    to be fair, i think the manager's job is to play the players that you expect to be better going forward.
    92-93 - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 01:15 PM EDT (#433539) #
    Management has gotten very good results out of Biggio over the last 10 weeks, and likely thinks that's a result of his usage. They have no reason to get rid of him.
    hypobole - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#433540) #
    Doesn't every FO defer to ownership?
    hypobole - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#433541) #
    Granted maybe they have no reason to get rid of Biggio. That said, those 10 weeks that he did well, 63 PA's were the first 5  of 10 weeks. 37 PA's the past 5 weeks.
    uglyone - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#433543) #
    yeah that's always the thing - we might complain about Biggio not getting more time, but his stats might be good recently entirely due to his usage - not only R/L usage, but Hard/Soft usage too.
    John Northey - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 02:01 PM EDT (#433545) #
    I'm wondering how much worse Espinal needs to play to be sent down/released. He does have options, his wRC+ is 69 this year - very poor. His xwOBA is .279 which is bad but his career for that has been 283-307-298-279, Biggio's this year is 302 and as a rookie he was at 346 (inbetween 315-285-288). Basically xwOBA gives an indication of what to expect going forward.

    xwOBA over 350: Clement, Vlad, Bo, Chapman in that order. Springer is at 336 (vs wOBA of 306 suggesting his fundamentals say he is far better than his results which is not exactly a shock). 300-320 is KK, Kirk, Belt, Biggio, Jansen. 290's are Merrifield and Varsho [plus Heineman] (Merrifields wOBA is 39 points higher, Varsho's 20 points lower so that massive spread between them is more luck than skill). Espinal is in the sub 290 group with Horwitz, Lukes, and Luplow.

    Biggest spreads - only checking guys with 100+ PA.
    wOBA below xwOBA (ie: should improve on field results): Vlad 51 points, Springer 30, Varsho 20, Bo & Espinal 9 each, Chapman 8, Kirk & Biggio 6 each - these guys should all do better than so far going forward.

    Likely to drop: wOBA above xwOBA: Merrifield 39 points, Belt 33, Jansen 26, KK 7. That's it.

    For comparison lets see Baltimore...
    Likely to do better: McCann 58, Mountcastle 38, Mateo 27, Rutschman 13, Frazier 10
    Likely to do worse: McKenna 34, Mullins 34, O'Hearn 25, Urias 19, Santander 19, Hays 11, Henderson 3

    So Jays have 8 guys underperforming fundamentals, O's 5, Jays have 4 overperforming, O's 7. Almost mirrors. Both have one guy drastically underperforming - Vlad & McCann. Both have 2 overperforming by 30+ (Merrifield & Belt, McKenna & Mullins).

    Bottom line: All teams have guys over and under performing their fundamentals. Before 2023 Vlad was always within 5 points of his xwOBA. His overall stats should be between 2022's and 2021's, but aren't. I suspect he just is having a crap luck year, not a crap year. Springer's last time being significantly below expected was 2020 (26 points) but otherwise has always been in eyeshot with his 2021 being 20 above expected. Going forward should we expect Vlad & Springer to be better? Heck yes. Hard to see what has happened as anything more than bad luck. And yes, guys can have that for full seasons, but the next year could be a good luck one and totally flip the narrative.

    For a comparison to a past Jays team that won the division: 2015: extremes: Navarro (backup C) -18, Colabello +45 (just 10 more games after that season, his luck ran out), 3 negatives, 9 positives among 100+ PA guys.

    Sadly can't compare to 1993 or others from the golden era as we don't have exit velocity for back then or launch angle or any of those newer stats. The technology didn't exist to track it. Sad as I'd love to see Bo Jackson's exit velocities and foot speed for the 80's (he was insanely talented, a unicorn who played football and baseball at all-star levels, potential HOF if he hadn't gotten hurt playing football some felt).
    jz6pwc - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#433546) #
    "I'm wondering how much worse Espinal needs to play to be sent down/released."

    I've said this before, something is completely off with Espinal this year. Even his arm strength seems lacking. He's turned outs that even Bo gets into close plays, if he makes them at all. He doesn't get big hits or make the big plays, and it started after the all-star game last year. (based on watching games, no stats to back this up)

    My guess is that he is next to go. I would be surprised if they DFA another pitcher off the 40. Hatch is probably as low as they want to go depth wise.
    Nigel - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 02:21 PM EDT (#433547) #
    I don't believe the FO is actually telling Schneider to play Varsho but why is that the test? There are a lot of things that my boss doesn't tell me to do but I sure as hell know that I should be doing them.
    vw_fan17 - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#433548) #
    290's are Merrifield and Varsho [plus Heineman] (Merrifields wOBA is 39 points higher, Varsho's 20 points lower so that massive spread between them is more luck than skill).

    I guess, even though I do like numbers / stats, some stats still don't pass the eye test for me. Are you saying that xwOBA is projecting that going forward, Merrifield and Varsho will be more-or-less identical HITTERS? Similar to some other system (was it ZIPS?) projecting that Varsho will hit 15-20% BETTER than Merrifield for the rest of the season? I don't buy it. Varsho has looked about as lost at the plate as I've ever seen for a LF.

    Maybe it's the "first year with a new team" effect, but having SUCH high hopes and watching him basically flail away at high fastball after high fastball, 6-10 inches high, it seems like the league has found his weakness, and he's been unable to adjust. I'd put $$ (or at least a few cuttlefish) on Merrifield outhitting Varsho for the rest of the season at pretty high odds.
    Gerry - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#433549) #
    Jordan Luplow has been claimed by the Twins.
    jz6pwc - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 02:49 PM EDT (#433550) #
    Did I miss news on Mitch White? Was he claimed?
    Gerry - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#433551) #
    White was unclaimed and has been sent to Buffalo.
    Nigel - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 02:56 PM EDT (#433552) #
    I've been questioning Varsho's ability to hit since the day of the trade, but I get that he does a multitude of other things that are helpful to the team. I also don't think that he will level out at his current hitting levels. I really think he's just Kevin Pillar - a below average hitter (something like a 90wRC+) with an exploitable hitting issue but not useless at the plate and useful in many other ways. My current issue is, as noted above, that he looks lost more than just about anyone I've seen in recent years and I'd like them to try something different for a bit. Sit him for a week, option him, hit him 9th - whatever, just do something different rather than keep running him out every day and expecting a different outcome. They did it with Manoah - why not Varsho?
    hypobole - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 03:02 PM EDT (#433553) #
    Well said Nigel.
    Katie - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#433554) #
    Unfortunately, the Skip doesn't play the kids.

    I don't think this is uniformly true. To me, it seems like Schneider decides how to classify someone (platoon bat, bench piece, starter) and then it takes a lot to move that thinking. For example, he has never indicated that he sees Lukes as anything but a bench bat, at all, and he was used incredibly sparingly. However, when Spencer Horowitz came up, he sat his first day in the majors and then started the next three games, before being demoted the next day.

    Luplow has nearly as many at-bats as Lukes despite a fraction of the time in the majors this season. That is attributable in large part due to the fact Luplow provided a platoon difference to Kiermaier/Varsho that Lukes didn't, but I do think it's also indicative of how Schneider decides quickly how to use a bench piece and sticks to that.

    I think Schneider will play a fair bit over the next few days, including tonight with Paxton starting, as I think Schneider will see this as a chance to shake up a stagnant offence.

    uglyone - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#433555) #
    I'd wager the FO was surprised White cleared.
    jz6pwc - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 03:41 PM EDT (#433556) #
    "I'd wager the FO was surprised White cleared."

    Yeah! For what they gave up 12 months ago...yikes. Nobody sees any value in him. I hope they can prove everyone wrong on him and turn him into something going forward, but its not looking good.
    99BlueJaysWay - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#433557) #
    Very different line up tonight. Should please the people who were calling for Danny to move up and Chapman to move down
    Nigel - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#433558) #
    I am really surprised that Schneider starts at 2B. I know the Monster creates an unusual LF to play but still. Varsho in the line up again!
    hypobole - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#433559) #
    I'll wager  the FO  wasn't surprised White cleared. No options, as opposed to Thornton or Hatch. Still can't figure out how the Dodgers got 100 IP of sub-4 ERA, sub-4 FIP out of him.
    Glevin - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 04:47 PM EDT (#433560) #
    "My current issue is, as noted above, that he looks lost more than just about anyone I've seen in recent years"

    I don't think hitting coaches do all that much but hard to understand how Martinez has a job. Almost everyone in the team looks like they are flailing without a plan.
    John Northey - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 04:48 PM EDT (#433561) #
    White still might be useful. I suspect he won't be on the 40 man this winter, so a team could grab him in the rule 5 (could he be a minor league free agent as he has 8 pro years now)? I could see if he is a minor league free agent the Jays resigning him quickly as they still have hope for him I figure.

    Springer batting second seems dumb to me right now as he is still in an ugly slump, but I guess they figure he'll break out of it soon. Jansen cleanup makes a TON of sense given his bat lately. Schneider 7th is interesting - hopefully he does well. Varsho 9th just makes sense until his bat gets going. If I was the Red Sox I'd be ready for one of his bunts when he comes up to bat.
    92-93 - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#433562) #
    The front office better have been surprised that White cleared, otherwise it made zero sense keeping him on the MLB roster this long.
    John Northey - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#433563) #
    sOPS+ with RISP for the Jays (OPS+ vs league with RISP)...
    • Great (over 120): Clement, Luplow, Bo, Merrifield
    • Solid (over 100): Jansen, Vlad
    • Not horrid (90's): Biggio
    • Ugh (70-89): Heineman, Chapman
    • Oh god no (50-69): KK, Kirk, Springer
    • Kill me now (sub 50): Varsho, Belt, Espinal, Lukes, Horwitz, DeJong (0 for 1)
    Espinal is at 21 - basically he cannot be allowed to hit with RISP if the game is close. Our 3 best are 2 guys who are either in minors or dumped plus an injured Bo. Vlad being at 112 surprised me but probably shouldn't - we expect a 150 from him in all cases and anything less is a disappointment. Kind of surprised to see how badly Belt has done in those situations (43 sOPS+).
    John Northey - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#433564) #
    FYI: DeJong is at 103 for sOPS+ with RISP overall. Hopefully he can do that here as that would make him good as our cleanup hitter :)
    scottt - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#433565) #
    It's August. They have a bunch of day games. Everybody could use a day off.
    Vladdy already gets to DH. Merrifield is hot.
    1 hit in 4 games? Sit down and relax.

    The only good way to use a bench is to run platoons.
    Tampa does it a lot. Baltimore has managed to do it more than Tampa.
    Both teams are fighting for the division title.
    That is not a coincidence.

    scottt - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#433566) #
    I expected White to clear. No sure how long he remains in the org, but they can use a starter in the minors for sure.
    It's probably best for him to try to figure it out without pressure.

    Varsho has problems with the high fastball.
    KK has issues with the breaking stuff.


    Nigel - Friday, August 04 2023 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#433567) #
    The Dodgers got what they got out of White because that's just what they do. No, they aren't infallible when it comes to pitchers - they did trade Pedro after all:) But just like the Yankees seem to be able to turn any has been hitter or hitting prospect into Babe Ruth for a half a season or so, the Dodgers seem to be able to turn any fungible arm into a useful major league pitcher. And if you want to feel sick about the cosmic inequity of it all just take a gander at gluttony of riches of pitchers on Dodgers AA team.
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