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Another playoff team? Why not!


It wasn't just Texas. I also thought the Marlins would be better this season, and said as much in these very virtual pages.

Gosh, you may wonder. How did you become so wise?

It was easy. The Marlins lost 40 games by just one run in 2022. They were not going to do that again, at least not any time soon. The Marlins figured to post a better record this season simply by not being so utterly plagued by Random Bad Luck.

But what's happened this year is they've replaced 2022's mysterious ill luck (24-40 in one-run games) with equally inexplicable Good Luck. In 2023, they've gone 18-5 in the one run games.

It's very much the same quality of baseball team. They still have the least frightening collection of hitters in the National League. A year ago, they were dead last in Runs Scored, and this year's crew is likewise dead last. They didn't give up all that many runs in 2022, even while losing 93 games, ranking sixth in the NL in preventing the other team from scoring. And this season, despite the travails of last year's Cy Young winner, the Marlins are... sixth best in the league at preventing the other team from scoring.

So there we are. Both seasons they ranked 15th out of 15 in scoring runs, and 6th out of 15 in preventing runs from being scored. They were outscored by 90 runs last season when they went 69-93.They've been slighly better than that this year; they've been outscored by 24 runs in less than half the season so far. Except they have a 41-31 record and hold the first NL Wild Card spot.

If you ever expect this game to make sense... prepare to be disappointed.

The Marlins did a couple of interesting things this off-season. They sent starting pitcher Pablo Lopez to Minnesota in exchange for second baseman Luis Arraez. One of the things that made this more interesting was the fact that the Marlins had signed Jean Segura as a free agent two weeks earlier. Segura is also a second baseman. Making this even more interesting is the fact that the Marlins most exciting young player, Jazz Chisholm, is also a second baseman. The Marlins also had the very serviceable Jon Berti on the roster, and while Berti can probably play anywhere, he's spent most of his professional career... well, have a guess! He's mostly been a second baseman. The Twins did play Arraez at first base for some 60 games last season, but that never made very much sense. Partially because Arraez had never played the position before, but mostly because he stands 5 foot 10, and I don't think we've had a 5'10 first baseman since Steve Garvey retired.

And anyway, the Marlins signed ex Astro Yuli Gurriel in March so he could play first base.

So how would Miami possibly get this particular collection of talent to make any kind of sense?

They would move Segura to third base. Granted, he'd hardly ever played there, but he did come up as a shortstop. They would move young Chisholm to centre field. Chisholm had never played the outfield in his life, but was quite enthusiastic about giving it a try. Gurriel would play first, Arraez would play second, and Jon Berti would become the everyday shortstop.

Is it working?

It's hard to say. Arraez has been wonderful with the bat, the closest thing we've had to Rod Carew since... well, since Rod Carew himself, I suppose. Arraez is a throwback, a LH hitter with no power, who never strikes out, puts everything in play, and ends up dropping lots and lots of line drives - some hard, some soft, some neither one nor the other - into those sweet spaces between the infielders and the outfielders. It worked in Carew's day, it worked in Matty Alou's day, it worked in Wee Willie Keeler's day. And apparently it still works today.

As for the rest of it... well we won't even see Chisholm or Segura this week. Both are on the IL, for what should be reasonably brief stints. Neither of them are hitting anywhere near what the Marlins had been hoping for - the offense is being carried mainly by Arraez and 2021 World Series MVP Jorge Soler. Soler hasn't exactly been the most consistent player from one year to the next, but he's been swinging a pretty hefty power bat for the 2023 Marlins - he's hit 20 HRs, the rest of the team has hit 48.

Monday's game would normally be Edward Cabrera's turn, but he just went on the IL with "shoulder impingement," and when did "impingement" become a thing anyway? You follow the sport long enough, and you end up learning more and more new terms for injuries.  (Never mind all the strange body parts that turn out to have very specific names of their own.)

Anyway, Monday will be a bullpen day for Miami. Bryan Hoeing did start a couple of games earlier this season, but he hasn't thrown more than 34 pitches in a game since May 6.

Last year's Cy Young winner, Sandy Alcantara gets the start on Wednesday afternoon, and while the 2-5, 4.97 record won't get him too many votes this season, he's really not pitching all that badly. Obviously he hasn't been nearly as good as he was a year ago, but It doesn't seem like he should be giving up twice as many runs. There's something fishy about his results, which is fitting - this team did choose to name itself after a fish. But it's still weird.

Well, it's south Florida. Weirdness is to be expected.

Matchups

Mon 19 June - Berrios (7-4, 3.28) vs Hoeing (1-1, 3.12)
Tue 20 June - Kikuchi (6-2, 4.31) vs Perez (4-1, 1.80)
Wed 21 June - Gausman (6-3, 3.01) vs Alcantara (2-5, 4.97)
Toronto at Miami, June 19-21 | 170 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Chuck - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 08:53 AM EDT (#430429) #
Berrios should enjoy pitching against these particular Florida Men, the vast majority of whom are right-handed.

Ex-Jay Jonathan Davis is still around, filling in for the injured Chisholm.

bpoz - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 09:43 AM EDT (#430430) #
Very good writeup on Arraez. Great Avg and bb/k leading to a great OBP. No power and no speed (SB).

I was wondering about how valuable prospects that had this type of Offense profile were. Josh Kacevich is an example.
hypobole - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 09:44 AM EDT (#430431) #
2021 Vlad's 6.3 fWAR was 6th best of MLB position players.
2023 Vlad's 0.6 fWAR is 10th best of Blue Jays position players.
Leaside Cowboy - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 09:53 AM EDT (#430432) #
Marlins Park (loanDepot park) is my favourite stadium in MLB, even if they removed some of the aesthetics.
short - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#430433) #
There are quite a few players who have shared both dugouts so it should be interesting.

- Cimber
- Davis
- Berti
- Mattingly
- Garcia
- Pop
- Richards

I may be missing a few as well!
scottt - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 12:48 PM EDT (#430434) #
You forgot to say anything about Eury Perez.

The Marlins #1 prospect was called up on May 10th straight from AA.
He's listed at 6'9", 220lbs and just turned 20.
The fastball sits 96-98mph. He's got a slider, a curve and a change.

Very similar to Pearson. It will be interesting to watch his approach.

uglyone - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#430436) #
TOR v SOS

* 1.TBR: 7gms, 3-4, +9 runs (6gms remaining)
* 2.ATL: 3gms, 3-0, +7 runs (0gms remaining)
* 3.TEX: 3gms, 1-2, -5 runs (4gms remaining)
* 4.BAL: 6gms, 1-5, -15 runs (7gms remaining)
* 5.ARZ: 0gms, 0-0, -- runs (3gms remaining)
* 6.MIA: 0gms, 0-0, -- runs (3gms remaining)
* 7.LAA: 3gms, 2-1, -2 runs (3gms remaining)
* 8.SFG: 0gms, 0-0, -- runs (3gms remaining)
* 9.NYY: 7gms, 3-4, +1 runs (6gms remaining)
* 10.HOU: 7gms, 4-3, -13 runs (0gms remaining)

* Top-10: 36gms, 17-19, 77 win pace, -0.50 run/gm (35gms remaining)

* 11.LAD: 0gms, 0-0, -- runs (3gms remaining)
* 12.TOR: 0gms, 0-0, -- runs (0gms remaining)
* 13.PHI: 2gms, 0-2, -5 runs (2gms remaining)
* 14.MIL: 3gms, 2-1, +5 runs (0gms remaining)
* 15.CIN: 0gms, 0-0, -- runs (3gms remaining)
* 16.BOS: 4gms, 0-4, -13 runs (9gms remaining)
* 17.MIN: 6gms, 3-3, -2 runs (0gms remaining)
* 18.SEA: 3gms, 2-1, +0 runs (3gms remaining)
* 19.SDP: 0gms, 0-0, -- runs (3gms remaining)
* 20.PIT: 3gms, 3-0, +19 runs (0gms remaining)

* Mid-10: 21gms, 10-11, 77 win pace, +0.19 runs/gm (23gms remaining)

* 21.CLE: 0gms, 0-0, -- runs (7gms remaining)
* 22.NYM: 3gms, 3-0, +6 runs (0gms remaining)
* 23.CHC: 0gms, 0-0, -- runs (3gms remaining)
* 24.DET: 3gms, 2-1, +5 runs (3gms remaining)
* 25.CHX: 3gms, 3-0, +18 runs (3gms remaining)
* 26.STL: 3gms, 1-2, -7 runs (0gms remaining)
* 27.COL: 0gms, 0-0, -- runs (3gms remaining)
* 28.WSH: 0gms, 0-0, -- runs (3gms remaining)
* 29.KCR: 4gms, 3-1, +5 runs (3gms remaining)
* 30.OAK: 0gms, 0-0, -- runs (6gms remaining)

* Bot-10: 16gms, 12-4, 122 win pace, +1.69 runs/gm (31gms remaining)


* Above .600 (4 tms): 19gms, 8-11, 68 win pace, -0.30 runs/gm (17gms remaining)
* .500 - .600 (14 tms): 35gms, 16-19, 74 win pace, -0.80 runs/gm (38gms remaining)
* .400 - .500 (8 tms): 15gms, 12-3, 130 win pace, +2.73 runs/gm (19gms remaining)
* Below .400 (4 tms): 4gms, 3-1, 122 win pace, +1.20 runs/gm (15gms remaining)


The schedule does get easier (with the biggest difference the rest of the way being those 15 gms left against the true dregs teams), but it's probably important to note that the Jays biggest issue this year is probably not against the truly top teams i.e. 8-11 with a -0.30 run diff vs the truly elite slash hottest 1st half teams in baseball so far is actually not bad.

And the Jays have taken care of business against bad teams for the most part.

The biggest issue SoS-wise is their perforamance against the decent-to-good teams, i.e. that big batch of teams in between .500 and .600. A 74 win pace and getting outscored be nearly a full run per game is very discouraging against those teams. An elite team would be comfortably over .500 against that group.
hypobole - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 01:51 PM EDT (#430437) #
More than a few reasons for the Jays struggles. But ostensibly the teams best pitcher and best hitter have a combined 0.0 fWAR, despite 13 starts and 307 PA's respectively. That's a lot of ship sinking.
uglyone - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 02:01 PM EDT (#430438) #
Guerrero is only slightly below last year's performance.

Manoah's dissappearance coincided with Berrios and Kikuchi coming back from the dead.
bpoz - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#430439) #
We are just a 1.5 games behind 4th place LAA. I feel ok about our team.
hypobole - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 03:09 PM EDT (#430440) #
Vlad by month:

Mar/Apr: 149 wRC+, .182 ISO, 37.1 FB%
May 95 wRC+, .160 ISO, 37.7 FB%
June 109 wRC+, .081 ISO, 17.3 FB%

uglyone - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 03:25 PM EDT (#430441) #
also interesting:

* Vladdy Home: 132pa, 9.8bb%, 18.2k%, .295babip, .239avg, .311obp, .060iso, 72wrc+
* Vladdy Road: 175pa, 8.0bb%, 14.3k%, .328babip, .316avg, .389obp, .219iso, 158wrc+

could be just random, but man is that stark. That's a significantly better road performance than he had in his big 2021.
Ryan Day - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 03:48 PM EDT (#430442) #
Varsho's also got some extreme splits: 279/333/513 on the road, 164/252/264 at home.
Gerry - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#430443) #
Kirk to the IL. Heineman recalled.

Francis optioned, Thornton recalled.
Nigel - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#430444) #
The Jays biggest problem is that you can comfortably say that 7 of the "top 10 list" are better than the Jays and there are another 3-4 on the "next 10" who its probably a coin flip as to who is better.

I agree that the decline of Manoah and to a lesser extent Vladdy is a big issue but if you need everything to go right you aren't that good of a team. Just look at the missing players on the teams on the top 10 list. Houston and NYY, for example laugh, at the Jays' issues.
hypobole - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 05:20 PM EDT (#430445) #
Thornton recalled.

The one area the Jays aren't lacking is "mop-up guys"
uglyone - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#430446) #

Chad Green (Tommy John rehabilitation) is scheduled to throw a live bullpen at the Blue Jays Dunedin complex on Tuesday.

Hyun Jin Ryu (TJ rehab) is scheduled for a two-inning live bullpen on Thursday in Dunedin.

— Arden Zwelling (@ArdenZwelling) June 19, 2023

Zach Pop (hamstring) is scheduled to pitch for the triple-A Buffalo Bisons on Wednesday.

Pop threw a scoreless inning for the Dunedin Blue Jays Saturday. That was his first appearance in two weeks after hamstring discomfort interrupted his rehab assignment.

— Arden Zwelling (@ArdenZwelling) June 19, 2023

Alek Manoah threw a side session at Blue Jays Dunedin complex Monday and is expected to throw a simulated game on Wednesday. He'll be aiming to up pitch count after throwing 75 over five innings in a sim game last week.

If all goes well, next step would be a minor-league start

— Arden Zwelling (@ArdenZwelling) June 19, 2023
greenfrog - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 05:28 PM EDT (#430447) #
I agree that the Jays look just OK at the moment--somewhat above average. I guess the hope is that by August/Sept, the team is playing a bit better (including better sequencing) and that at least two of Ryu, Manoah and Green are all making positive contributions to the team, so that the Jays are in a WC position and in decent shape to compete in the postseason. Vladdy getting on track will be important in that regard.

Nice to see Horwitz doing well in the majors so far. I've been following him since last June when I noticed his strong hitting performance across several levels/seasons.
John Northey - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 05:29 PM EDT (#430448) #
The moves make sense, but dang it'd be nice if our catchers could get through a season in one piece. Very glad they got Heineman who is a solid defender (as any good AAAA catcher should be) who isn't a total embarrassment at the plate (like many are) despite his lifetime 59 OPS+ vs 117 as a Jay (29 PA). Reese McGuire was a decent backup but had stretches where you'd swear he was using a limp noodle instead of a bat, others where he was on fire (thus his lifetime 85 OPS+). Really, for 3rd catchers we've been blessed between the two of them these past few years. Josh Thole was the emergency backup in 2015/16 (73 OPS+, 46 as a Jay for example.

3rd catchers rarely get much playing time. When they do it is normally quite ugly. Luckily both Jansen and Kirk are solid #1 catchers so one being down just means the other gets TONS of playing time. I remember when Kevin Cash was the Jays #2/#3 catcher with a 25 OPS+ while here, 37 lifetime (yikes!) in the early 00's. Fine manager, lousy player. Typical for the Jays back then.

Francis for Thornton is probably just to have someone who can go 2+ innings for the next few days. Then he'll be flipped to the minors for someone else. The 13th man on your staff should be very replaceable.
scottt - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 05:34 PM EDT (#430449) #
The Jays might be looking OK, but the Marlins don't look like a playoffs team.

I like our chances if they pitch around Soler.
If Soler hits a meaningful HR in this series, it will be time to talk about a new manager.

vw_fan17 - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#430450) #
I like our chances if they pitch around Soler.
If Soler hits a meaningful HR in this series, it will be time to talk about a new manager.

You mean the way they always pitch around Mountcastle or Judge?

/shakes head sadly..
Nigel - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#430451) #
Ugh - this offence. Good ABs by Jansen and Biggio and then....nothing.
Hodgie - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 07:24 PM EDT (#430452) #
I wonder if the FO would still admit to tracking swing decisions and the quality of at-bats by Jays hitters. If so I’d imagine there is good reason they haven’t spoken about it in a long time.
uglyone - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 07:28 PM EDT (#430453) #
Jays leadoff man on 2nd = three frustating useless at bats

Miami leadoff man on 1st = immediate home run
Nigel - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 07:38 PM EDT (#430454) #
Biggio's was not a useless AB.
dalimon5 - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 07:42 PM EDT (#430455) #
I've been advocating for a Bichette for Jazz trade but I have to change that wish to Vlad for Jazz now. Bo's just been too good and Vladdy ... what's the best way to describe...always seems to be fading away as the season goes on. He looks a lot right now as he did in the last month and a half of last year.

Something about this Miami team I like.
uglyone - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 07:44 PM EDT (#430456) #
lol. another inning another choke.

this team needs therapy.
greenfrog - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 07:44 PM EDT (#430457) #
Total BS strike three call on Horwitz. Good PA by the rookie with an undeserved result.
Chuck - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#430458) #
Arraez is a video game character with a cheat code.
uglyone - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 08:00 PM EDT (#430459) #
bring back the Gibber
Gerry - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 08:02 PM EDT (#430460) #
Berrios is probably done after four innings, he is at 100 pitches.

You know you are in a bad patch when pitchers that were going well, like Bassitt and Berrios, are suddenly way out of form.
lexomatic - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 08:07 PM EDT (#430461) #
I'm about ready to forget about this season.
Not a fun team to watch. Feels like they've missed their window due to better player development.
greenfrog - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 08:25 PM EDT (#430462) #
First-place Arizona is up 4-0 on the Brewers T1. Two-run single by Gurriel Jr. off Corbin Burnes to extend the rally.
uglyone - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 08:28 PM EDT (#430463) #
speaking of Lourdes....last 100pa: 88wrc+
Mike Green - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 08:45 PM EDT (#430464) #
Ever the contrarian. I thought that this team would be struggle and end up just over .500 for the first half due to starting pitching grief. And that they would pick it up in the second on the way to 92 wins. I haven't changed my mind.

I think that Pete Walker has to go. The handling of the pitchers has led in several cases to loss of confidence. That much is clear to me. He hasn't done a good job of getting the most out of marginal talents, even when presented with a good defence.
Marc Hulet - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 08:48 PM EDT (#430465) #
Nothing like overusing Pearson and destroying his confidence...
greenfrog - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 08:48 PM EDT (#430466) #
LGJ 127 wrc+ on the season. That would be second-best on the Jays.
uglyone - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 08:52 PM EDT (#430467) #
gurriel is who he is. streaky mofo. he'll end up as a moderately above average bat while being a defensive liability.



uglyone - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#430468) #
Jays now down to a +5 run differential on the year, and all of that (and more) thanks to all those runs scored on position players in that 20-run game.
christaylor - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#430469) #
I agree that this team is not as fun to watch as the last few years despite seeming to have more talent. Whatever Teoscar and JGJ flaws they were exciting players to watch.

I hope the Jays can turn it around but I also hope the front office isn't averse to selling certain players at the deadline if the season continues.
Ducey - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 09:10 PM EDT (#430470) #
My goodness this team looks bad right now. Had a team meeting a month or so ago. Manager might have to go soon.
greenfrog - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 09:15 PM EDT (#430471) #
Thanks for the hot take, UO.

A few counterpoints. First, LGJ has been a good hitter throughout his career (116 wrc+), especially since his 102 wrc+ rookie season. Second, his BB/K rates have improved steadily throughout his career and they’ve been consistently good over the last couple of years. Third, both leagues now have a DH position, allowing teams to use LGJ more effectively (he’s a DH tonight, for example). Fourth, he’s hitting LHP and RHP equally well this year.

I can’t comment on his defense, but based on Fangraphs’ metrics it seems like it might be less bad than in previous seasons.

Lastly, LGJ certainly has been streaky in previous seasons, but a stretch of 100 PA with an 88 wRC+ doesn’t seem like an especially bad downturn.

Good player.
Gerry - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 09:15 PM EDT (#430472) #
Bad teams can get better, see last years Phillies for an example.

To get better the Jays need Bassitt, Berrios and several members of the bullpen to get better, Vladdy and Chapman to get back on track. Is that too much to ask?
uglyone - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 09:20 PM EDT (#430473) #
Yep he has a 116wrc+ career and a 111 the last 2yrs. That's where he'll end up again this year most likely.

Not exactly what you want from a DH.
greenfrog - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 09:29 PM EDT (#430474) #
LGJ wRC+

2018: 102 (rookie season)
2019: 125
2020: 134
2021: 107
2022: 114 (while injured)
2023: 126

Agreed that he'll likely end up in the 107-125 range this year with around 3+ WAR.

But if you prefer having Espinal (-0.3 WAR) on the roster, that's your prerogative.
uglyone - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 09:38 PM EDT (#430475) #
Espinal's on the roster because he can play a good SS. And has put up WAR at a better rate than Gurriel in their careers.





scottt - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#430476) #
Lots of stuff I didn't like tonight.

The umpire was squeezing the Jays, especially low in the zone.
Varsho hitting second. He's got the lower OBP on the team.
Pulling Thornton after 2 easy innings.
Bringing Pearson back. Still don't like his pitch sequences.
Bringing the infield in in the 7th when you need outs to finish the game.

It's the manager's job to put 4 fingers up when Soler comes up with runners on.

uglyone - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 09:49 PM EDT (#430477) #
well, so much for that nicely racist "barrio" narrative.
greenfrog - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 10:09 PM EDT (#430478) #
Good point about Espinal. I was probably relying too heavily on recency bias (his poor 2023 season). Although with Bichette playing 159 games in each of the last two years and every game this year, the need for a backup SS doesn't seem to be that great on this roster. With Biggio and Espinal hitting poorly and Merrifield doing well, it would be tempting to subtract one of Biggio or Espinal from the 2B logjam and add a capable middle-of-the-order bat.

Another nice thing about LGJ is his cheap one year remaining on his contract. The Astros had to give 36-year-old Abreu (65 wRC+) a 3/$58.5m deal last off-season to entice him to come to Houston.
hypobole - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 10:45 PM EDT (#430479) #
Why do we cry so much over spilled milk?

BRef is wrong. Gurriel's contract had a clause that he would be a free agent this season, not after next year.
Magpie - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 10:53 PM EDT (#430480) #
I think that Pete Walker has to go.

I have no idea if it would help. I don't know what he's doing, or trying to do. I'm not in the room. Not too keen on the results he's been getting...

But maybe something's getting stale. Walker's been in his post a long, long, long time. He got the job, replacing Bruce Walton, in November 2012, just a few days days after Anthopoulos brought John Gibbons back. This is his eleventh season doing the same job for the same team. The next longest tenure belongs to Scott Emerson, who became Oakland's pitching coach in mid 2017. Emerson, Carl Willis in Cleveland, and Kyle Snyder in Tampa Bay are the only others who've been doing their job longer than five seasons. This may be Mike Maddux's twenty-first season as someone's pitching coach but it's still just year one of his second tour in Texas.

Maybe they're like managers - they have a useful shelf life of about five years before you - and they - need to move on. Because everything has changed by then.
greenfrog - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 10:59 PM EDT (#430481) #
hypobole, that’s what I meant. He had one year remaining on his contract at the time of the trade (free agent after 2023). This made him a low-risk acquisition for Arizona.
Nigel - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 11:28 PM EDT (#430482) #
I’m no Gurriel fan but on the day of the trade I formed the view that he was a salary dump or moved simply to break up the barrio. There was zero reason to move him otherwise. At the time, the team was obviously in need of a 4th OF and some thump. That’s still true today.
uglyone - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 11:44 PM EDT (#430483) #
Gurriel would be the 5th best OF on the team.
Nigel - Monday, June 19 2023 @ 11:59 PM EDT (#430484) #
Not against LH pitchers he wouldn’t.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 05:02 AM EDT (#430485) #
Hits LHP (and RHP) well

More rest for Kirk and others

Depth in case of injury (KK, Belt, Springer, Kirk and Jansen have all spent time injured this year—probably Vlad too)

Good bat off bench when not starting

—I agree he’s not a great player but he would be useful on this offensively-challenged team. He’s beating most of the other proposed options for 2023 (Grossman, Pollack) by a country mile.
Leaside Cowboy - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 08:33 AM EDT (#430486) #
no more 3-city road trips scheduled for the rest of the season.

[ strong Austrian accent ]

" I'm here to PUMP - [ clap ] - YOU UP! "

we do the push-ups and the sit-ups,
work the biceps and the triceps,
and we conquer the American League!

Gerry - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 08:42 AM EDT (#430487) #
John schneider looked pained on the bench last night.
Glevin - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 10:35 AM EDT (#430488) #
"My goodness this team looks bad right now. Had a team meeting a month or so ago. Manager might have to go soon."

Biggest issue the Jays have right now is getting Vladdy right. 2 years ago, Vlad was a 6 WAR player. now he's a 1 WAR player. a 166 WRC+ and a 118 WRC+ is the difference between Yordan Alvarez and Justin Turner. It's incredibly frustrating because he's so gifted, but this kind of long-term slump (1.5 years really) is just not something elite hitters should be doing. (Lowest of 137). You need to be able to count on your elite players to be elite.

Ducey - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 11:04 AM EDT (#430490) #
The thing is that Vladdy's problems seem to stem from a lack of discipline, not a lack of talent. He is swinging waaay to hard, chasing junk, and doesnt seem to have any kind of game plan. Thats on him, but its also on his manager to tune him in.
hypobole - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#430491) #
I remember in 2012 Edwin came in with a new open stance. He had spent the offseason with a personal hitting coach who made a few tweaks with the stance being most obvious. Went from 18 HR to 42. Jose in 2009 was taught to pull the ball in the air by Cito and Murphy.

Then there is Eric Hosmer. Despite his power, he never came close to fully taking advantage because he couldn't/wouldn't stop being a ground ball machine. He'd go through stretches of getting the ball in the air, but always ended up reverting to his ground ball ways.

I'm starting to think Vladdy is on the Eric Hosmer path. Saw him in the dugout a couple of weeks ago. Swinging his hand through a ball he was holding imitating a slight uppercut swing to get the ball in the air a few times, then what he has been doing swinging down on the ball.

After last night, his June GB rate is 57%, FB rate 16%. That's ridiculous for a player with 80 raw and his inate bat to ball skills.



Glevin - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 11:53 AM EDT (#430492) #
"The thing is that Vladdy's problems seem to stem from a lack of discipline, not a lack of talent. He is swinging waaay to hard, chasing junk, and doesnt seem to have any kind of game plan. Thats on him, but its also on his manager to tune him in."

It's definitely not lack of talent but I also think there is a limit managers and coaches can impact. You can say "be more selective" and run drills but it's up to him to be able to recognize pitches and remained disciplined. The big difference, you're right, is his chasing pitches. In 2021, his chase rate was 69th percentile. Last year it was 39th percentile. This year it is 31st percentile. His BB% has gone from 87th percentile to 50th percentile. He needs to be more disciplined and wait for his pitch but he seems to have so much trouble doing that right now.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 11:54 AM EDT (#430493) #
A whole bunch of better teams than the Jays sure seem to be having a ton of fun with quirky home run celebrations in their dugouts. But maybe with not as much latino flair i guess.

jays don't seem to be having any fun. we are super serious about baseball around here.
soupman - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#430494) #
I think his wrist is messed up. They take forever for power to come back.

I don’t like the player to begin with and wanted him traded last deadline but the sell high moment has passed. This would be selling low imo. He can hit- so why isn’t he? Injury? Social life? Fitness? Those are my guesses before he became less talented or less inclined to hit the ball in the air for philosophical reasons.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 12:06 PM EDT (#430495) #
"Not against LH pitchers he wouldn’t."

Eh, he can't play CF so you're saying he's a better option vLHP than Springer or Merrifield and i don't think that's even true offensively, let alone defensively.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#430496) #
last 2yrs vLHP:

* Springer 224pa, 136wrc+
* Merrifield 354pa, 94wrc+
* Gurriel 250pa, 94wrc+
* Kiermaier 168pa, 92wrc+
* Varsho 219pa, 79wrc+
85bluejay - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 12:18 PM EDT (#430497) #
Back when Vlad had his big season and finished 2nd in MVP voting I asked a fangraph chat (Kevin Goldstein) what pitching talent the Jays could get for Vladdy with reference to the Marlins stacked system - he basically said I was silly to even suggest trading the Great Man.
hypobole - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#430498) #
Vlad's average EV is 94.5, behind only Judge, Yandy and Acuna. 2021 was the only year it was higher. It was 92.8 last year. Doesn't seem to be injury. As Glevin said, his swing decisions just seem poor far too often.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#430499) #
The cherrypicking is getting ridiculous. Gurriel Jr. career wRC+:

versus LHP 117
versus RHP 115
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 12:37 PM EDT (#430500) #
It’s pretty damning for the Jays organization that two of their superstars — Manoah and Vladdy — have been huge busts this year. The weak drafting and prospect development have also been disappointing (although I’m pleased to see Orelvis doing better recently).
92-93 - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 12:38 PM EDT (#430501) #
No, he's saying Gurriel is a better option than Espinal vs LHP because Merrifield is a 2B. If you want to place too much value on the defensive difference in LF between Merrifield and Gurriel, that's fine too.
Nigel - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 12:56 PM EDT (#430502) #
Yes, that was my point but I won't defend it too hard as Gurriel was and is a flawed player. But, at the price, he would still have been useful to this roster. Between KK's injury history and Varsho probably best suited to having a RH caddy, there would have been a reasonable number of AB's.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 12:59 PM EDT (#430503) #
Merrifield is a better defensive LF than Gurriel. The fact that he can also play a good 2B shouldn't be held against him.
soupman - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#430504) #
He’s a fat guy that swings hard. It seems obvious that this will produce hard hit balls just as a 6’7 monster is also at the top of the list. I’ve watched him take at least two pitches in the hands and wrist this year. It’s way less complicated than « kid that has loved jacking bombs his entire life now wants to be a singles hitter »
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 01:05 PM EDT (#430505) #
Gurriel down to an 82wrc+ over his last 101pa now btw.

Varsho at 123wrc+ over his last 104pa.
Glevin - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 01:06 PM EDT (#430506) #
"It’s pretty damning for the Jays organization that two of their superstars — Manoah and Vladdy — have been huge busts this year. The weak drafting and prospect development have also been disappointing (although I’m pleased to see Orelvis doing better recently)."

Really disappointed in the system so far this year. If you look at all the guys who looked promising, exciting going into the year, pretty much all have taken a step back either do to performance or injury. Hopefully, second half is a lot better but system now looks like one of weakest in baseball. Part of that is OK with Jays trading so many prospects to get established players but other teams are able to find prospects consistently and the Jays seem to be struggling to develop talent.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 01:07 PM EDT (#430507) #
Can't agree there Soupman - Vladdy has never been a guy who sacrificed contact or patience for homers. He was always content to hit singles and draw walks from a very young age. that's what made him such a devestating prospect.
soupman - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 01:19 PM EDT (#430508) #
He’s hitting balls hard but not for power. Why? Did he decide to? Or is his body failing him? I think the latter is a simpler and more plausible explanation.
soupman - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#430509) #
Bautista had season ending surgery in 2012. Look at the numbers leading into and following that. It was 2014 before he looked right again. Auston Matthews is another case that comes to mind. Sometimes it’s mental but if there’s a proximate physical explanation, and when that explanation is a wrist I take it. I fell off my bike and hurt my wrist in my 20s. I could do everything after a few weeks like normal, but there was no real strength until a year later. It would be nice if it was some adjustment he could be coached into, but this is probably a lost season. Good time to lock him up if you believe my narrative because I expect the full profile will return in time. That said I don’t like the player so I’d be against any long term deal no matter the price.
92-93 - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 01:56 PM EDT (#430510) #
And out-hitting both Gurriel and Varsho over his last 105pa is Teoscar Hernandez, who is red-hot right now.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 02:01 PM EDT (#430511) #
Vladdy is getting a lot of heat but he's much closer to last year's numbers than a bunch of other guys like Springer, Kirk, Jansen,(plus bench guys Biggio, Espinal). Here's a quick comp to last year:


Last Year --> This Year --> Difference

* 1. CF Springer 583pa, 132wrc+ --> RF Springer 310pa, 105wrc+ --> -27
* 2. SS Bichette 697pa, 129wrc+ --> SS Bichette 330pa, 138wrc+ --> +9
* 3. 1B Guerrero 706pa, 132wrc+ --> 1B Guerrero 311pa, 118wrc+ --> -14
* 4. RF Teoscar 535pa, 129wrc+ ---> DH Belt 180pa, 130wrc+ ------> +1
* 5. C Kirk 541pa, 129wrc+ -------> C Kirk 202pa, 91wrc+ --------> -38
* 6. 3B Chapman 621pa, 117wrc+ ---> 3B Chapman 299pa, 118wrc+ ---> +1
* 7. DH Gurriel 493pa, 114wrc+ ---> 2B Merrifield 264pa, 115wrc+ -> +1
* 8. LF Tapia 433pa, 90wrc+ ------> LF Varsho 298pa, 95wrc+ ------> +5
* 9. 2B Espinal 491pa, 99wrc+ ----> CF Kiermaier 202pa, 115wrc+ --> +16

* B. C Jansen 248pa, 140wrc+ -----> C Jansen 155pa, 96wrc+ -------> -44
* B. UT Biggio 303pa, 97wrc+ -----> UT Biggio 122pa, 70wrc+ ------> -27
* B. UT Merrifield 130pa, 119wrc+ -> UT Espinal 108pa, 61wrc+ ----> -58

and might as well add in the extras:

* B. OF Zimmer 101pa, 22wrc+ -----> OF Lukes 23pa, 46wrc+ --------> +24
* B. OF Bradley 80pa, 51wrc+ -----> C Heineman 13pa, 155wrc+ -----> +104
* B. C Moreno 73pa, 113wrc+ ------> 1B Horwitz 8pa, 157wrc+ ------> +44
* B. DH Collins 79pa, 94wrc+ -----> IF Clement 7pa, 58wrc+ -------> -36
* B. C Heineman 16pa, 86wrc+ -----> OF Luplow 7pa, -49wrc+ -------> -135



Vlad's decrease and Bo's increase kind of balance each other out tbh.

While the offseason changes have at least matched last year offensively but probably exceeded it thanks to KK.

But then all of Springer, Kirk, Jansen, Biggio, Espinal have been much worse this year so far.
Glevin - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 02:29 PM EDT (#430512) #
"Vladdy is getting a lot of heat but he's much closer to last year's numbers than a bunch of other guys like Springer, Kirk, Jansen"

Because the issue is that last year was already a huge disappointment so being worse than last year is devastating for the team. In 2021, he was elite. One of the few best players in baseball. Someone you build around. Last year, he was good. His rank in 1B WAR has gone from #1, to #10 to #18. He's gone from being an irreplaceable HOF-path player to being a below average 1Bman. Yes, he isn't the only disappointment but you need to count on your best players.
Petey Baseball - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 03:03 PM EDT (#430513) #
I am not a swing coach or a hitting coach, nor do I know how Vlad is feeling physically, but I'm inclined to agree with soupman's comments about his health and I think the Bautista comparison is interesting. I remember the wrist injury, it happened at Yankee Stadium. Jose took one of his usual violent hacks and crumpled up in pain in the batters box. He came back later in '12, managed to still put up a .886 OPS, but the next year (seemingly 100% healthy) he put up the
second lowest OPS of his "glory years" at .856

Eric Hinske had a tremendous rookie season with good power numbers (24 Home Runs, an .845 OPS) while playing 151 games. He broke his hammate bone in 2003 and never really approached those power numbers again. There were other reasons for his decline, but the point is, his OPS dropped 80 points the year after his hand injury, when he was considered "100% healthy"

I seem to remember Lyle Overbay also suffering a hand injury during his Jays tenure and watching his power numbers dip significantly until a resurgence in his Jays swan song season (21 HR under Cito in 2010).

Speaking of Cito, I wonder if this keeps up, if they don't pull Cito out of the Special Advisor role and have him try and help fix Vladdy?

uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#430514) #
"you need to count on your best players."

true, but last year he was in a virtual 5/6-way tie for "best hitter" on the team, total WAR had him in 5th well behind the best guys, and by WAR pace he was behind everyone on the team with 100+pa aside from Gurriel, Tapia, and Zimmer.
Kasi - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#430515) #
Alright so your point is now that Vlad is an average guy and not this irreplaceable gift given to Atkins by the previous GM. Got it.

That being said I agree that both of the last two regimes have been pretty crappy at drafting and developing players. I still think the biggest issue this team has had and it goes back a long way is developing pitchers. Some of AAs biggest trades were because of that and same with Atkins.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#430516) #
well...if i gotta sum up i guess my point is that there's a whole bunch of things going wrong, not just Alek and Vlad.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#430517) #
Wil Myers just DFA'd.

He's probably toast, but he'd be a very Atkins-type pickup i think.
Nigel - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 03:31 PM EDT (#430518) #
How about developing OF's? Anyone want to take a crack at the last time the Jays had a legitimate OF prospect (by legitimate I mean a top 100 or so MLB prospect (not a Cal Stevenson type of prospect)). I think its Alex Rios and that is a staggering thought. Anthony Alford had a blip where he got closeish to that level of prospect.
92-93 - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#430519) #
Pompey was exciting for a bit.
Kasi - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 03:38 PM EDT (#430520) #
We’ve done decently at acquiring some guys but because of lack of pitching they never stuck around here long enough. Or in some cases just not enough patience given. I’d like a Harold Ramirez or Drury right about now. But yeah homegrown OF prospects is another weakness for sure.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 03:40 PM EDT (#430521) #
it's funny how these things work, though. we used to complain that we never had C and SS prospects (i.e. the rarest ones) and those have been our strength lately.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#430522) #
Do Teoscar and Gurriel count as OF prospects we developed?

Nigel - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#430523) #
I don’t count Teoscar or Gurriel but Pompey cracked a few top 100 lists I believe. Lane Thomas is probably the best OF the team has drafted in the past decade or so and his was a shockingly negligent development path that the Jays pursued. I watched first hand the ridiculous decision to try to turn him into a 2B. Someone’s head should have rolled for that.
hypobole - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#430524) #
"He’s hitting balls hard but not for power. Why?"

You can look up the names, but here's the Launch Angles of the HR leaders at FG
20 or more HR
12.5, 15.6, 19.2, 16.1, 18.4.
16-20 HR
15.8, 22.5, 19.1, 16.3, 14.1, 12.5, 10.6, 18.7.

Corbin Carroll is the only one under 12.5.
Vlad? 8.6. That's part of the reason why.

"Vladdy has never been a guy who sacrificed contact or patience for homers."

True. So what is a pitcher to do? Maybe throw fewer 4 seamers and more sliders. Contact on 4 seamers is often bad for pitchers. Contact on sliders is often good.

2022-2023 only Vlad has more than 2nd place Gio Urshela's 30 GIDP's. Vlad has 36.
Mike Green - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#430525) #
Lane Thomas.  There's one that I got right without seeing him, and Nigel confirmed having seen him.  I am a big believer that outfield to infield conversions rarely work but that infield to outfield conversions regularly do and are sometimes necessary (see Billy Hamilton). 
scottt - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#430526) #
Vlad gets more than his share of breaking balls off the plate being called strikes.
When the Jays were successful in 2021, they were very aggressive.
Now, they get attacked constantly with stuff off the plate and when they lay off, they often get called looking.

Is it a coincidence that the one guy doing well, Bichette, swings at almost everything.
How often is Bo called looking on strike 3?

The Jays are good against bad teams, who don't have pitchers who can exploit the bad umpiring.

Also, everybody seem to follow the scouting report when pitching to the Jays.
Varsho sees tons of high fastballs and because he's a shorter guy, the strike zone seems to extend to his arm pits.

I don't see the Jays exploiting the weaknesses of hitters.
Many guys seems to pitch everybody the same.

soupman - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 04:55 PM EDT (#430527) #
the jays went for speed and defence and still their babip on RISP is 25th in the league. the league is hitting 6 points better than last year (new rules?), but the jays are 10 points down. luck has more than nothing to do with why they aren't playing better. i think they've been playing to their floor...and so with bad luck and other than Bo no real standout seasons...they're staying afloat in a tough division. i'm not worried yet.
Nigel - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 07:01 PM EDT (#430529) #
Watching Varsho trying to hit velocity is just painful. Did they just not see that in the pro scouting?
Nigel - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#430530) #
Perez was just so wonderfully dismissive of Varsho. Here's three FBs, see if you can hit them. Nope - sit down.
lexomatic - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#430531) #
Ugh. THe Jays cannot score to save their lives
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#430532) #
That's 18 scoreless innings in a row for the Jays offense.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#430533) #
Interesting call here, made more interesting by Miami's call.

Kikuchi is on 87 pitches and just got their best hitter. Their 2-3-4 are up next inning but really only Soler is someone to fear. Do you bring him back out? does John?

Miami just pulled the utterly dominant Perez on only 80 pitches. I would be pretty dang annoyed if I were a marlins fan right now.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 08:15 PM EDT (#430534) #
I would give Kikuchi one more inning. I'm guessing we're going to see Yimi.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 08:15 PM EDT (#430535) #
87 pitches for Kikuchi.

but hey, Yimi has been so good this year why not give him some high leverage.
Nigel - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 08:19 PM EDT (#430536) #
It may well backfire but I'm ok with the Kikutchi pull. I wouldn't let him face Soler again. Now, the choice of Garcia is a head scratcher but what are you going to do? There are only three good choices (Swanson, Mayza and Romano) and you can't use them every night.

Those ABs after Vladdy's double? Ugh
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 08:25 PM EDT (#430537) #
with the way kikuchi was pitching, i try to get him through soler.

He tattooed that one off Yimi, fortunately went right at KK.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 08:27 PM EDT (#430538) #
maybe you don't like KK vLHP, but there's no way Ernie Clement should be pinch hitting in MLB for any reason.

now make me look silly please.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 08:28 PM EDT (#430539) #
now that is some tasty egg on my face.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 08:30 PM EDT (#430540) #
Good to see some Clement weather arrive in Miami.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 08:34 PM EDT (#430541) #
Has the making of an important, clutch win.....bullpen pending.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 08:34 PM EDT (#430542) #
Props to Kikuchi for an excellent start in this one.
electric carrot - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 08:35 PM EDT (#430543) #
was going to get eat an orange but not now -- it's Clement-time.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 08:46 PM EDT (#430544) #
swanson scaring me, but that was amazing by Bo, safe or not.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 08:51 PM EDT (#430545) #
good stuff vladito.
99BlueJaysWay - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#430546) #
Maybe Vlad will have a year like Bo did last season and hit like crazy for the last 6 weeks
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 09:10 PM EDT (#430547) #
yeesh Jordan that's a lot of hard hit balls.

that's some nice CFing by Varsho tho.

big win.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 09:11 PM EDT (#430548) #
uglyone - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 09:12 PM EDT (#430549) #

Brandon Belt is second among AL DH’s in All-Star voting, 1,387,257 votes behind Shohei Ohtani. And he’s not happy pic.twitter.com/EfLdhXe7IY

— Talkin’ Baseball (@TalkinBaseball_) June 20, 2023

hypobole - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 09:30 PM EDT (#430550) #
Quiz: 19 pitchers have at least 40 IP and 1.80 HR/9. How many have an ERA under 4?

Answer: Kikuchi

John Northey - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 09:33 PM EDT (#430551) #
Heh. Safe to say Belt is joking there.
Leaside Cowboy - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 10:47 PM EDT (#430554) #
Good to see some Clement weather arrive in Miami.

Ernie brings the thunder.

hypobole - Tuesday, June 20 2023 @ 11:00 PM EDT (#430555) #
More Kikuchi

This was his 105th MLB start. It's the 1st time he's thrown 6 scoreless innings without a walk.

Only 3 times has he done better than today's 74 Game Score. He's had 2 career 80's and one 90. The 90 was a 9 IP, 2 H, 1 BB, 8 K gem against the powerhouse 2019 Blue Jays.

2019 was also the last time he had 6 IP start without either a walk or a home run.
electric carrot - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 09:34 AM EDT (#430557) #
Good to see some Clement weather arrive in Miami.

I think this hit will start the jays on a hot streak that takes them all the way to 2nd place.
Gerry - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#430559) #
Bo is not in todays lineup due to a sore thumb. He hurt it in yesterdays game.
lexomatic - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#430560) #
So according to this, Guerrero is pressing

https://twitter.com/DownToBlack/status/1671539370598203394

Question who else on the Jays is pressing. And is it a coaching issue, or a player issue?
hypobole - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 11:58 AM EDT (#430561) #
Comparison time. Here are the top 3 Cy Young finishers last year with this years IP and ERA, plus one more pitcher. Who is best?

Verlander 52.0 - 4.50
Cease 85.1 - 4.22
Manoah 58.0 - 6.36

Alcantara 88.2 - 4.97
Fried 26.0 - 2.08
Urias 55.1 - 4.39

Kikuchi 77.0 - 3.97

Now rank them in each category and add the scores. Cease and Kikuchi are ahead of all others, each having a 2nd and a 3rd. Therefore, Kikuchi is undisputedly best using the standard "Tie goes to the guy who isn't in the AL Central" rule.
hypobole - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 12:25 PM EDT (#430564) #
That is very interesting, lexomatic. It seems to me the Jays hitting philosophy has gravitated to hitting line drives. Line drives for most players are best, but I wonder if it's best for a guy with elite power like Vlad.

This reminds me of something Gerry brought up in an earlier thread regarding Orelvis and Davis Schneider.
Chuck - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#430565) #
What is that awful background noise at the game? It’s not the fans since there are so few. It sounds like an amplified recording of a public swimming pool.
Chuck - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 12:35 PM EDT (#430566) #
The new offensive strategy these past few innings, including last game, seems to be to minimize exit velocity. Lots of little bloops and seeing eye singles.
scottt - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#430567) #
I wouldn't mind if they stretched Thornton to be the 5th starter. He was an average starter for a full year.
scottt - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#430568) #
I don't get the "Jesus believed in his teammates too" campaign. Obviously, someone is spending big money here. Apparently the whole thing is over $100 million.

The Catholic Latinos often signs themselves when they reach base or pray before their ABs, so God is never far away from the game to begin with.

This seems to be more an anti-abortion, anti-LGBTQ, anti-contraception, pro-discrimination Christian Right clarion call.

Still, the whole "Jesus loves who we hate, he gets us" lines rings totally false in my ears.
It just screams "We'll take your money as long as the message isn't offensive."
uglyone - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#430569) #
with the bottom of the order coming up in the 7th, i hope it's a no-brainer to bring Gausman back out on 92 pitches.
Mike Green - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#430570) #
So far, the game illustrates the significance of sequencing hits. 
Kasi - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#430572) #
Guess they shouldn’t have brought Gausman back. I find a bit of this Schneider commentary is a bit results based. Oh he’s the worst since he made some decision that didn’t work out. Or maybe it did.

Vlad is still meh.
christaylor - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#430573) #
Given how my adopted country has drifted in the past years, I welcome any attempt at civility and compromise. It feels no more or less fake than nearly every church in the Boston area including a pride flag on their signage.

Now about that deluge of betting ads... ugh.
Mike Green - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#430574) #
Jamie Campbell said something true there.  Sometimes the "save" doesn't occur in the ninth inning. 
uglyone - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 02:11 PM EDT (#430575) #
nah Kasi - bringing Gausman back out was the right thing to do.

and personally this is why i type my takes out here on record BEFORE the decision is made on the field, so that they're clearly not kneejerk results-based hottakes.
92-93 - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 02:28 PM EDT (#430576) #
Typically the discussion in here is based on Schneider's process, not the results. Bringing Gausman back out at 92 pitches for the bottom of the order with a tired bullpen was an easy decision.
92-93 - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 02:30 PM EDT (#430577) #
Speaking of the process, this is the 2nd time in a week that Schneider has left Biggio in at 2B with a lead instead of putting Merrifield there. It's bizarre.
soupman - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#430578) #
Nice theory. I think Chris and Caleb’s theory could be simplified. He’s hitting 50ft less because his wrist is jacked up. Look at the spray charts. He didn’t become Jose Bautista where everything is left-centre and to to the pole. The homers are…but that’s not because he isn’t still spraying the ball. It’s not that complicated imo.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 02:39 PM EDT (#430579) #
I know that random variation explains a lot of stuff but I do feel like these last two wins to pull out this series saw the team really bear down in some key situations, at the plate, in the field, and on the mound. I think they finally showed some character after the thrashing in the opener.
92-93 - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#430580) #
Ya, it was random luck. With a softening schedule, let's hope to see a lot more of it over the next 2.5 months.
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#430581) #
" And He said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's. "

Nov. 14th, 2022: " Miami-Dade County swung red this election, making Gov. Ron DeSantis the first Republican gubernatorial candidate to win the county in two decades. "

Glevin - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 04:05 PM EDT (#430582) #
It is nice to see the team win games even when things aren't going well. I mean, the team is 41-35 in easily the best division in baseball with way more road games than home so it's not like they're terrible but man, have they been frustrating to watch at times.
scottt - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#430584) #
Being in 4th place is frustrating.

The lack of homeruns is a bit frustrating.

The bullpen has a whole has been a source of frustration dating back 30 years and the current one isn't actually that bad.

Manoah has been frustrating.

I think the schedule will help.
I don't buy that every team they are facing is heating up.
I think it's more likely those teams have faced bad oppositions and came up looking good.
The Pirates comes to mind.
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 05:41 PM EDT (#430585) #
" The bullpen [as] a whole has been a source of frustration dating back 30 years, "

Jason Frasor was my favourite player, but he was slow as molasses.

I wonder how Miguel Batista would fare with a pitch-clock.

The Summer Solstice: first day of summer and the pennant race is full steam ahead.

John Northey - Wednesday, June 21 2023 @ 11:47 PM EDT (#430591) #
You want frustration from a pen go back to the early 80's when the team first started to contend. Roy Lee Jackson is a cursed name quite often - pushed beyond his abilities due to necessity. In 1983 he had 7 saves, 6 blown, 9 holds (no one knew about that then), Joey McLaughlin on the same team had 9 saves, 11 blown, 2 holds. Yikes. Randy Moffitt had the most saves at 10, 3 blown, 6 holds so he did well despite his 115 ERA+ in his final ML season. Dave Geisel 5 saves, 3 blown, 9 holds, 94 ERA+. It was an ugly time which might explain the 43 complete games (14 by ace Dave Stieb). The Jays signed Dennis Lamp that winter to be the closer but that didn't work so well, 9 saves 5 blown, 4 holds. Jimmy Key was in the pen too, 10 saves, 7 blown, 8 holds. Roy Lee Jackson kept getting chances too 10 saves, 7 blown, 6 holds. One can see why the Jays talked openly about putting Dave Stieb in as closer with those results. Then they traded 2 regulars (Collins & Griffin) for Bill Caudill, 14 saves, 5 blown, 5 holds (his first 10 games he either got a save, a win, a loss, or blown save and loss). Mid season Tom Henke came up and took over through 1992 when Duane Ward took over for 1993 then blew his arm out. I doubt anyone has felt as secure as we did then with Henke/Ward in the 8/9th inning.
ISLAND BOY - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 03:03 AM EDT (#430592) #
The race for 2nd and 3rd wild card positions:

NY Yankees 41-33
Houston 41-34
LA Angels 41-35
Toronto 41-35
Magpie - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 09:04 AM EDT (#430594) #
Of course, relief pitchers are used very differently today than they were 40 years ago. Joey McLaughlin's 11 Blown Saves in 22 Save Opportunities would be extremely ugly from a modern closer. But your modern closer almost always enters to work a clean inning. Just 3 of McLaughlin's 22 "Save Opportunities" saw him getting a clean inning to work with and in about half of his Blown Saves, the tying run was already on base.

And running a bullpen was the weakest part of Bobby Cox's managerial skillset. Because nobody's perfect.
hypobole - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 09:15 AM EDT (#430595) #
Magpie compared Luis Arraez to Rod Carew in his OP. Here's a few more names you might recognise.

He went 5-for-5 Monday against Berrios and our pen. That was his 3rd 5-for-5 in June. The last player to do it 3 times in one calendar month was Tony Gwynn in 1984. The only others to do it? Ty Cobb and George Sisler.
Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 09:35 AM EDT (#430596) #
Saturday, July 29th vs. the Angels is " Grateful Dead Day " at Rogers Centre.

There is one Bauxite who, for many years, I just assumed looks like Jerry Garcia . . . or Bill Gaines.

mathesond - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 10:24 AM EDT (#430597) #
I'm looking forward to the tie-dyed uniforms. And wonder if anyone will use Casey Jones as their walk-up music...
hypobole - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 10:30 AM EDT (#430598) #
Jordan Romano is really good. I'm sure you can find Sportsnet articles telling you than. But an American article? Good luck.

Fangraphs admits he deserves some belated attention, with the usual interesting Fangraphs observations.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/everybody-in-canada-loves-jordan/
uglyone - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#430600) #
The 'pen is frustrating because so many guys kinda blew up this year.

Romano is doing what he usually does.

Mayza and Richards have been better than expected.

Swanson slightly below what he usually does.

All the rest - Bass, Garcia, Cimber, Pop - pretty much imploded this year. And even a guy like Pearson has seen his numbers go south after a great start.

soupman - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 02:08 PM EDT (#430601) #
i'll admit i didn't really believe in him until this year. the stuff looks hittable compared to guys that have his track record and the article does a good job of explaining why.
John Northey - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 02:32 PM EDT (#430602) #
It is a fun race so far. Hopefully the Jays pull away from the pack at some point, I fully expect the O's and Rays to fall back towards the group at some point (O's just got good last year, should've declined this year; Rays defy gravity every year it seems).

Tie Breakers: Jays have it vs Houston, are 2-1 so far vs LAA, 3-4 vs the Yankees. So the Jays have a good chance at having the advantage should it come down to tie breakers. Just 1-5 vs Baltimore (ugh) and 3-4 vs Tampa. July 28-30 the Jays play the Angels (take 2 of 3 and they have that tie breaker), Baltimore July 31st to Aug 3rd & Aug 22-24 - need to win all of them to get the tiebreaker (odds aren't good on that I'd say). NYY: Sept 19-21 and Sept 26-28 - vital games there needing a 4-2 record to get the tie-breaker (very possible, but hard). Rays are Sept 22-24, Sept 29-Oct 1st, same as Yankees needing a 4-2 record. Basically for the Jays the playoffs start on September 19th and continue until eliminated or they lock up a playoff slot. Boston & Texas are the 2 before that tough stretch. Boy, that will be a tough finish.
Glevin - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 02:41 PM EDT (#430603) #
I worry much more about the Orioles. Sure, there may be some regression but...their system is insane. Something like 8 top-100 prospects and about 3-4 of the best in baseball. When you have that, it's pretty easy to add to the major league team either by promoting guys (and they have Rodriguez, Cowser, Westburg, and Kjerstad who all appear ready for the majors) or trading prospects for impact major leaguers . Jays will find it very hard to do so as I think right now, it's probably a bottom-5 system with nobody of interest very close to the majors right now (Barger and Tiedmann if they return and perform).
92-93 - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 02:56 PM EDT (#430604) #
The Orioles schedule the rest of the way is significantly harder than the Jays'. They are 20-5 against CHW, DET, KC, OAK, PIT, and WSN, while the Jays are 11-2 against the same.

Kudos to them for taking care of business and being 5-1 against the Jays thus far, but regression is coming. They aren't that good, yet.
John Northey - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#430605) #
MLB really needs to address the insane level of play in the AL East via some form of radical realignment. With the A's going to Vegas expansion should be possible now. Just the Rays are left as a basket case financially, although looking at the numbers the Rays are now 4th worst for attendance, ahead of the Royals (who suck), Miami (who doesn't), and A's (who suck). Miami and Tampa are proof MLB made a big mistake putting teams in Florida. Give those cities contenders and they still draw flies. Put either into Montreal and they'd get 2 million+ a year with the same park.

Past time for 2 new teams, wherever they may go - Portland, Nashville, Montreal, Charlotte, Austin, Salt Lake City, and now Vancouver is starting to be on the lists as well. My bet would be on Nashville or Charlotte (one or the other, too close to give to both right now) and Portland. Austin is becoming a bigger possibility as time goes by though as both the Rangers and Astros have solid crowds (29k Rangers, 37k Astros) while Austin is far enough from both (over a 2 1/2 hour drive) to work but close to San Antonio thus able to draw fans from there as well.
Mike Green - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#430606) #
The 'pen is frustrating because so many guys kinda blew up this year.

That's not the way I see it.  The pen has been pretty good.  The starters have been bad.  Here are the statcast numbers.  Seven pitchers with xwOBAs better than league average: Pearson, Swanson, Romano, Richards, Mayza, Gausman and Garcia.  Yes, Pop was poor over a brief period and Cimber has been very bad all year.  But when you can go 6 deep in your pen, you should be all right.  Here's another metric- team WPA for bullpens.  The Blue Jays rank 8th in the major leagues, with only the Yankees significantly better in the American League.  The Blue Jay starters rank 10th in the major leagues in WPA and miles behind Texas, Houston, Tampa and Minnesota.  That, of course, is generous to them because the pitching gets credit for the good work of the defence in WPA. 


scottt - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#430607) #
Gausman doesn't rely on the defense and the Jays are bad because they give up too many HRs.

Figured I checked the KC/Tampa game since it's on TV.
Tied at 2 in the 4th. Cash pulls Macclanahan after 68 pitches or so because they don't like the stuff/velo.
He comes out cursing.

John Northey - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 08:38 PM EDT (#430608) #
FYI: the expansion team list I got from a poll of players at the Athletic. #1 is Nashville (by a mile) at 69%. #2 is Montreal at 10%, Charlotte at 5%, Austin at 5%, Portland at 4%, Vancouver 2%, Salt Lake City 2%.

So where does the Box want new teams? Montreal & Austin would work for me.
John Northey - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 08:46 PM EDT (#430609) #
According to Fox Sports "Rays pitcher Shane McClanahan left tonight's game in the 4th inning with the trainer". So unless they are using 'injury' as a replacement for 'don't like stuff/velo' which would get them in deep trouble I'm guessing there really is an issue. The Rays are quite careful as despite their depth they can't afford to lose too many to injuries.
greenfrog - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 09:59 PM EDT (#430610) #
Seattle is ahead of New York (starting pitcher: Domingo German) 10-0 at the moment. Sorry not sorry, Yankees fans.
John Northey - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 10:41 PM EDT (#430611) #
Today was a good day in the AL East - Rays lost 6-5 to the Royals (heh). Red Sox shutout by the Twins. Yankees downed 10-2 by the Mariners.

Bottom line - Jays 1/2 a game behind the Yankees, 10 back of Tampa, 2 ahead of Boston, 5 1/2 behind Baltimore. Houston & NYY tied for 2nd/3rd wild cards so 1/2 a game out of the playoffs right now.

FYI: Entire AL Central is 500 or less now, KC 3 games ahead of (or trailing depending how one looks at it) Oakland in the race for the bottom. No NL team is remotely close (7 games between KC and Colorado). And in the 'gotta love baseball' category the Reds are #1 in the NL Central by 1 1/2 with Joey Votto back - in 3 games he has a 222/417/556 line - lets hope he keeps it up or gets better and leads the Reds to the playoffs.
uglyone - Thursday, June 22 2023 @ 11:55 PM EDT (#430612) #
"That's not the way I see it. The pen has been pretty good."

I didn't say they hadn't been decent/good, I said they've been frustrating. Because so many guys have blown up.

and they have.

As expected:

* Romano: 32gms, 62era-, 59fip-, 79xfip-, 1.1war, 2.2war/65gms
* Swanson: 35gms, 62era-, 89fip-, 92xfip-, 0.7war, 1.3war/65gms

Above expectations:

* Mayza: 35gms, 34era-, 46fip-, 63xfip-, 0.9war, 1.7war/65gms
* Richards: 24gms, 89era-, 102fip-, 83xfip-, 0.2war, 0.5war/65gms

Blown Up / Just plain bad overall:

* Bass: 22gms, 119era-, 108fip-, 108xfip-, -0.1war, -0.1war/65gms
* Pearson: 19gms, 117era-, 97fip-, 101xfip-, -0.1war, -0.2war/65gms
* Garcia: 33gms, 131era-, 92fip-, 70xfip-, -0.2war, -0.4war/65gms
* Pop: 15gms, 158era-, 147fip-, 93xfip-, -0.4war, -1.5war/65gms
* Cimber: 22gms, 178era-, 174fip-, 126xfip-, -0.6war, -1.9war/65gms

That's just a whole whack of guys that have been liabilities in the pen. And sure yeah you can squint and say that maybe a couple of them have been unlucky but then again you keep saying how the defense is saving the starters, yet the defense is bad when the relievers are in?


and you keep saying the starters have been bad, but they're top-5 in IP, and #12 in era-, #17 in fip-, #12xfip- - at worst they're putting up average numbers in lots of innings, which makes them above average. but really they're probably putting up above average numnbers in very high innings, which makes them just plain good.
Magpie - Friday, June 23 2023 @ 09:05 AM EDT (#430614) #
the pitching gets credit for the good work of the defence

OK, but isn't that why you have good defensive players? That's their job, that's the way it's supposed to work.

I suppose this means I'm much more in agreement with the uglyone. Gosh. We can't have that, can we?

The bullpen has been frustrating, but I dunno. Bullpens are always frustrating, it's the nature of the beast. Garcia, Pearson, and Cimber all have bad numbers at the moment, but I'm only really worried about one of them (Cimber.)

Pearson had a bad week, and if you're a relief pitcher you can pitch well for 25 weeks and the bad one can mess up your numbers for the whole season (Tim Mayza, 2021). Garcia's stuff is different this year, and that can often mess pitchers up. He's added a little more mph to his fastball, and when you add velocity, you often lose a little movement. He's throwing the ball well, he's been doing this a long time, I kind of expect him to figure it out. But Cimber may be beyond saving. His game is built on not giving anything away - no walks, no home runs - and those are the things that have gone through the roof this season. If he can't do that, he can't do anything.

I'd like to find out why Thomas Hatch's strikeouts have shot up this season.
Mike Green - Friday, June 23 2023 @ 09:55 AM EDT (#430616) #
the pitching gets credit for the good work of the defence
OK, but isn't that why you have good defensive players? That's their job, that's the way it's supposed to work.

Not in my view.  Good organizations recognize the contributions that pitchers and defence make to run prevention and adjust valuations and needs accordingly.  The Blue Jays need another starting pitcher because their front 4 isn't good enough that they can just have a hole in the 5 slot to be filled with Richards for 2-3 and Francis for 2-3.  They could have just let Francis have the job for 5 innings at a time, but they apparently lack the confidence in him for that.  This failure (lack of confidence in Francis and non-acquisition of a starter) led to overuse of Pearson and trouble.  If they just use Pearson sensibly, he'll have a great 1/2 season. 

Incidentally, the rumour is that Manoah is coming back on July 1 after having done good work on his mechanics.  I am skeptical that this will work, as the issue seemed to be more mental/timing than mechanical.  Whenever he comes back, I wish him well. 
uglyone - Friday, June 23 2023 @ 11:02 AM EDT (#430629) #
I calculated they needed 4 manoah-replacement starts to get them to the break, so really any team should be able to tandem-start/bullpen-game their way through that for the short term.

Around the break you're planning on Manoah coming back and potentially both Ryu and Tiedemann being healthy...if none of those look like reasonable options by the break, then you start looking for longer term solutions maybe from outside the org.
Mike Green - Friday, June 23 2023 @ 11:16 AM EDT (#430630) #
It depends on the strength of your other starters and the opposition.  Kikuchi gave them 5 innings a start.  Bassitt gave them under 6.  Berrios gave them 6.  Those figures are actually at the high end of expectations given the strength of the opposition.  With Richards/Francis going 5 innings, it was pretty much guaranteed that you'd end up with Cimber in leverage positions and some other reliever overused.  That turned out to be Pearson. 
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