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Game Threads Boston at Toronto, June 27-29
So these guys have decided they're going to be a problem, too.



The hottest team in the AL in June? That would be these here Red Sox, who have gone 19-4 so far, and that's a chin hair better than the Yankees 19-5 log. The Bostons had played .460 (23-27) through April and May. Their offense can't quite match the Bronx Bombers, but their run prevention this past month has been even stingier (after a major blip in May when they were allowing almost 5 runs per game).

After struggling badly in April (0-3, 8.27) Nick Pivetta has been as good as any stater in the AL (8-2, 2.11), Michael Wacha has been good all along, and the ancient Rich Hill hasn't missed a start. The Sox are even getting by without ace Nathan Eovaldi and Garrett Whitlock, both on the IL but expected to return shortly (neither has an arm injury.) Chris Sale is now making rehab appearances and James Paxton is throwing off a mound. No AL manager goes to his bullpen as often as Alex Cora, who seems to have settled on Tanner Houck as his closer (all 6 of Houck's saves have come in the last three weeks.) Houck is the only reliever who's actually been pitching all that well - there are lots of other arms down in the pen, all of them getting plenty of work, none of them being very impressive.

Their hitting doesn't look all that impressive either, except for the three guys who are hitting like they're filling out their Cooperstown resumes.  Xander Boagerts, Rafael Devers, and J.D. Martinez have been awesome. Everybody else has been ordinary at best, The Red Sox are second in the league in runs scored because Bogaerts, Devers, and Martinez have been that good.

Matchups

Mon 27 June - Seabold (---, -.--) vs Gausman (5-6, 3.19)
Tue 28 June - Wacha (6-1, 2.34) vs Stripling (4-2, 3.08)
Wed 29 June - Pivetta (8-5, 3.25) vs Manoah (9-2, 2.05)
Posted by Magpie on Monday, June 27 2022 @ 05:00 PM EDT.
Boston at Toronto, June 27-29 | 262 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Mike Green - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#416279) #
Cavan Biggio in LF while Gurriel DHs tonight. That's a good decision which will be rewarded=   A 17 game winning streak starts tonight! 
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vw_fan17 - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#416280) #
So, which manager will adopt the bold strategy of: IBB to Bogarts, Devers and Martinez at any point in the game with less than a 5-run differential?
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Magpie - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 05:30 PM EDT (#416281) #
Just the second time Biggio's started in the outfield since he came back in May. He's still started 21 games (more than HWFOOS) but he's really been the Fifth Infielder.

Ohmighosh, there's Cavan's visage peering out at us on the Jays team page at bb-ref. Anyone remember who he bumped off?
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92-93 - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#416282) #
Kudos to Montoyo for deciding to field his best lineup tonight in a big divisional series. Tomorrow they face Wacha who has reverse splits, so we might see the all-righty lineup.

It's a "needs work" night for Cimber and Romano.

Let's see if the lack of extreme shifting continues behind Gausman, or if last game was a one-off.

These next 8 games vs. BOS and TB will be tough, but the Jays are at home and need to find a way to come out of this stretch 5-3.
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greenfrog - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 05:39 PM EDT (#416283) #
Guaranteed Series Win (tm) this series!*










*Guaranteed series wins are not guaranteed. Please bet responsibly.
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uglyone - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#416284) #
Losing this series would make unhappy.
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Petey Baseball - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 06:06 PM EDT (#416285) #
I seem to remember the Jays having a "Guaranteed Win Night" promotion early in the Ricciardi era. I'm cloudy on what that entailed, but I'm quite sure it was a thing that happened. Anyone remember that?
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Magpie - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 06:13 PM EDT (#416286) #
No, I seem to have blocked much of the Ricciardi era from my mind.

This Seabold fellow came along with Pivetta in the deal with the Phillies for Heath Hembree, who posted a 12.54 ERA for the Phillies before leaving as a free agent and Brandon Workman, who went 1-4, 6.92 for the Phillies before - wait for it -leaving as a free agent.

That GM can't possibly still have the job.
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greenfrog - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 07:23 PM EDT (#416289) #
The ump started out well but then capitulated, calling an outside pitch to Bichette a strike (Bichette then punished an actual strike, driving it down the LF line). Let’s see how he does the rest of the game.
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Nigel - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#416290) #
We were talking about this the other day - if you look at the end of the Bichette rundown you will see the Boston CF running in and covering 2nd.
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scottt - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 07:28 PM EDT (#416291) #
Guerrero strikes out on 3 balls. Maybe swinging only at strikes is a little thing.
Bichette makes the out at 2B on a ground ball to the shortstop. Being a shortstop himself, he should know what the play is supposed to be. Another little thing done poorly.

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Chuck - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#416292) #
but he's really been the Fifth Infielder

Hopefully he continues to play well enough to assume the Tony Phillips role of being first on call at every position but CF and CA. That's almost a full-time job.

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Magpie - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 08:00 PM EDT (#416293) #
Summer of George!
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Magpie - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 08:04 PM EDT (#416294) #
Well, if you're having trouble with the little things - try doing some big things!
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bpoz - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 08:55 PM EDT (#416295) #
Should get to the Boston pen and deplete it.
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Magpie - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 09:17 PM EDT (#416296) #
Host of suspensions for Angels and Mariners with Angels mgr Phil Nevin getting 10 games and Seattle's Jesse Winker getting 7. That's pretty hefty for a manager suspension.
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Magpie - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 09:19 PM EDT (#416297) #
Seattle mgr Scott Servais gets off ascot free. Well, he couldn't have done much about Winker I suppose.
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Nigel - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 09:27 PM EDT (#416298) #
I’m assuming that that length of suspension arises from tangible evidence that Nevin formally ordered the payback. It’s odd though, I’ve heard multiple old timey pitchers say that it was clear when payback was required of them without a manager ever having to explicitly order it. Maybe times have changed.
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greenfrog - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 09:31 PM EDT (#416299) #
JBJ -2.0 fWAR last year and this year combined. I think it’s safe to say that Springer (4.1 fWAR entering tonight) has prevailed in that head-to-head comparison, even with the higher salary and intermittent injury issues.
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Magpie - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#416300) #
Either that, or they're really sending a message. Three Angels coaches, three pitchers, and one player, and the interpreter.
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uglyone - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 09:36 PM EDT (#416301) #
Charlie finally lets a starter go deep.....and it's in a game where he had no reason and could have wasted a dreg rp instead.

Charlie is a strange one.
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Magpie - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 09:38 PM EDT (#416302) #
Managers are held responsible and get ejected if anything happens after a warning have been issued, and the warning was issued after Wantz threw behind Rodriguez' head in the first inning. But the Angels really wanted a fight, and when Winker freaked out after he was hit, they got what they wanted.
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Nigel - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#416303) #
Yes managers are held accountable after warnings - but 10 games accountable? Something a bit extra happened that added to the tally in this case.
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Eephus - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 09:49 PM EDT (#416304) #
Haven't had a chance to watch a whole lot the past week, but has Biggio wearing glasses in the field been a recent development or just tonight alone? I know he doesn't have a ton of experience playing LF at the Dome, and we've seen plenty of people lose balls in the lights out there (Curtis Granderson quite notably on Opening Day for instance).

I'm pretty okay with leaving Gausman out there for another inning. Less chance you find somebody who doesn't have it tonight (which Gaus clearly did and then some) and Boston is hot enough to make things problematic.
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Magpie - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 09:51 PM EDT (#416305) #
I have to think MLB is simply sending a message - you can't do this crap. I don't know what the actual smoking gun could be, beyond the fact that everyone everywhere knew it was coming ahead of time.
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Magpie - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 09:57 PM EDT (#416306) #
could have wasted a dreg rp instead.

The dregs have been worked so hard these last two days that most of them aren't available tonight. Did you really want to see them call on the one they brought up today in the seventh inning?
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Gerry - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 10:05 PM EDT (#416307) #
If you want to be what happened in the Angels brawl, look at the jomboy video on youtube. Warning, the language makes it NSFW.

Biggio said that his eyes have been bothering him, watering I believe. The glasses are just clear sunglasses, just to cover the eyes, apparently they are working.
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hypobole - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 10:11 PM EDT (#416308) #
Anderson looks to have volunteered to be the DFA for Romo.
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greenfrog - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 10:12 PM EDT (#416309) #
Bit scaredy to get Romano up and throwing in a 7-0 ballgame?
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uglyone - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 10:38 PM EDT (#416310) #
"JBJ -2.0 fWAR last year and this year combined. I think it’s safe to say that Springer (4.1 fWAR entering tonight) has prevailed in that head-to-head comparison, even with the higher salary and intermittent injury issues."

Wait was that an actual comparison?

Career

Springer 4182pa, 134wrc+, 4.7fwar650, 5.0bwar650
Bradley 3931pa, 85wrc+, 2.5fwar650, 2.9bwar650
Pillar 3846pa, 87wrc+, 1.9fwar650, 2.8bwar650

Last 2yrs

Springer 615pa, 135wrc+, 4.3fwar650, 4.6bwar650
Bradley 650pa, 44wrc+, -1.9fwar650, -0.9bwar650
Pillar 360pa, 87wrc+, 1.5war650, 0.5bwar650
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John Northey - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 11:48 PM EDT (#416311) #
Got me thinking, did the Jays sign the right free agent in the 2020/2021 winter? I love Springer but was he the best choice? Here are the top few with rank by MLB
  1. J.T. Realmuto: $115.5 over 5 years. 3.5 WAR last year, 1.7 this year. But as a catcher his contract would've been a big negative here now.
  2. Trevor Bauer: oh thank god they didn't sign him. 3.0 WAR last year, but that pales in comparison to the nightmare he has been PR wise. 3 years $102 mil, but year 3 and most of year 2 is voided pending lawsuits. $31 mil pocketed last year.
  3. George Springer: 6 years $150 mil. 2.4 WAR last year, 1.9 so far this year.
  4. DJ LeMahieu: 6 year $90 mil, 1.5 WAR last year, 2.4 so far this year. Jays would've had to pay a lot more though as he wanted to stay in NY.
  5. Marcell Ozuna: -0.2 last year, -0.5 this year, 4 year $65 mil deal. Yikes.
  6. Marcus Stroman: took QO, signed this past winter 3.4 last year, 0.1 this year. $71 mil over 3 years.
  7. Marcus Semien: 1 year deal, worked really well - 7.3 WAR, signed for $175 over 7 years, just 1.0 WAR so far. Phew.
  8. Didi Gregorius: SS -0.8 last year, 0.5 this year, $28 mil over 2 years. Ugh.
  9. Michael Brantley: 2.5 last year, 1.3 this year, but a DH/LF so no real spot here for him.
  10. Justin Turner: 3B - 3.7 WAR last year, -0.6 this year, $48 mil over 3 years. Jackie Bradley Jr. was #14: -0.7 last year, -0.2 this year, signed for $24 mil over 2 years. Phew, dodged a bullet there.
    #16: Ha-seong Kim - almost signed, but Jays wouldn't guarantee him never to be demoted to AAA so he went to SD. 2.1 WAR last year, 1.9 this year, almost all on defense at SS/3B/2B. Hits like Tapia, but fields better than Espinal. $28 mil over 4 years. A good deal, but if here he would've just made Chapman not needed and might have stopped the Jays from signing Semien last winter.
    #21: Kevin Gausman - took the QO, signed here last winter, 5.1 WAR last year, 1.1 before tonight's gem. $110 mil over 5 years looks like a good deal right now.

    I think looking at this the Jays did well. Springer covers an obvious hole in CF (who the heck would be there now if he didn't sign?) and of the others who'd you want here at their current deal or slightly worse? Realmuto has been good for his deal, but is a catcher. LeMahieu is playing well now (was below average for a regular last year), Ozuna, Gregorius, Turner, Bradley Jr all land under the category of 'even for free I'd say no'. Stroman just a bit better than that, but not by much. Brantley as a DH would have no space. Kim would've been nice but with Chapman at 3B and Espinal at 2B and Biggio backing everyone up he'd be like Zimmer - all defense and left on the bench 90% of the time.
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John Northey - Monday, June 27 2022 @ 11:53 PM EDT (#416312) #
Tonight's game was a blast to watch. Missed the early part (sigh) as my daughter was playing her game (they won). No question the pen is the #1 issue imo at this point. Berrios I trust will be fine, and Kikuchi will continue to annoy but as #5 you just need to plan on that and have a long man ready for every one of his starts.
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ISLAND BOY - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 03:24 AM EDT (#416313) #
Kikuchi is more than annoying if the Jays have no chance to win when he's pitching. I get that he's the fifth starter but why are games he starts less important than games Manoah starts? Like it has been mentioned before, he really needs to be in a low pressure environment, ie. the minors, for a while and get his delivery sorted out.
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Jonny German - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 05:10 AM EDT (#416315) #
Hopefully (Biggio) continues to play well enough to assume the Tony Phillips role of being first on call at every position but CF and CA. That's almost a full-time job.

I don't think anyone wants to see Biggio on the left side of the infield again, but fortunately that's one of the ways that Espinal is an ideal platoon partner for him.
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scottt - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 05:39 AM EDT (#416316) #
Nevin used an opener for the sole purpose of plunking a hitter and not losing his regular starter.
The suspensions were made so that nobody tries that again.

They played a little fancy in going after Angels relievers and Mariners hitters.

What's funny is that both of these teams viewed themselves as contenders this winter and they haven't been better than the Orioles, all looking like 75-80 win teams.

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scottt - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 05:43 AM EDT (#416317) #
Kikuchi is on a short leash with a right handed pitcher ready to come in when he falters.
He's like an opener for Castillo. That should hold true with his next game against the Rays who won't start many left bats.

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Magpie - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 06:04 AM EDT (#416318) #
look at the jomboy video on youtube.

OK, between Wantz telling Winker that "I had to do it" and Nevin reminding the umpire over and over about the pitches to Trout the night before - as close to a smoking gun as you're going to get. And they made it all so obvious. They were barely even trying to establish some plausible deniability.

I'd forgotten about Lorenzen hitting Upton, but I remember when it happened that Lorenzen went on a loud and angry rant about how the baseballs were so slippery someone was going to get hurt. The Mariners may not have bought it.
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uglyone - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 06:59 AM EDT (#416319) #
Might be time to start looking at biggio as the starting 2B again and Espinal as the super utility guy off the bench.
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Chuck - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 07:09 AM EDT (#416320) #
I don't think anyone wants to see Biggio on the left side of the infield again

I agree with this. Biggio would fill in for Chapman or Bichette by having Espinal move to 3B or SS and Biggio to 2B. Without Espinal on the roster, Biggio as the "5th infielder" doesn't work.

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Nigel - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 07:18 AM EDT (#416321) #
My read is that Nevin got 5 games for “that crap is unacceptable” and 5 games for a complete and total lack of subtlety. He never struck me as the sharpest knife in the drawer.
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Magpie - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 07:21 AM EDT (#416322) #
Might be time to start looking at biggio as the starting 2B again and Espinal as the super utility guy off the bench.

I think that if that happens, it will take place gradually - organically! - without anything really being said about it. I think they had planned a platoon arrangement at the start of the year, even though Biggio doesn't really have a platoon split. But Espinal started out hot, Biggio went 1 for April and went on the Missing List.

I do think this is probably closer to what Espinal really is - the .353 BABiP last season was unlikely to be sustainable. He's been quite consistent at this level - around .260/.320/.400 every month. Which is okay, but Biggio may be able to give you more offense, and a different kind of offense.
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Magpie - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 07:27 AM EDT (#416323) #
I also kind of expect Moreno to go back to Buffalo when Jansen comes back. The kid needs to play. Collins will stick around as the third catcher, the job being to sit there and be ready, just in case something weird happens. That's about all you can do with a third catcher.
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Gerry - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 07:42 AM EDT (#416324) #
I was thinking the same Magpie, you beat me to posting it (referring to Moreno probably going back to Buffalo).
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bpoz - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 08:16 AM EDT (#416325) #
I always wonder how a prospect makes the major league team if there is no opening available.

You want your good/great prospect to play every day not sit on the bench.

Moreno took being optioned after ST badly. He got over it and earned his way up. Great arm and batting avg. Low bb & Ks. No power so far. Lastly Atkins praised him a lot upon his promotion. Talent and leadership qualities and of course a great kid. But Montoyo said also V good kid but Kirk is doing a fantastic job.

Max Castillo may also test this process. His last outing was very good. He pitched once a week in the minors and made his 2nd ML outing with a 5 day break. I am unsure what his role is at the moment. Also will he be good/decent at the ML level.
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Chuck - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 08:30 AM EDT (#416326) #
I'm going to "me too" the Moreno remarks. He'll return to AAA and we'll see him again when Kirk or Jansen gets hurt. I think the positional logjam gets dealt with in the off-season with Jansen the likeliest to be traded (I doubt a catcher gets moved mid-season). If he can continue asserting himself as he has since late last year, he should fetch a decent return. I'm happy for him that he seems to have established himself. His timing just stinks with younger, and likely better, options on his tail. An organization that spent decades incapable of producing catchers has suddenly struck oil.
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Glevin - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 09:17 AM EDT (#416327) #
Even with a 90 WRC+ or something, Espinal is still a 2 WAR player because of his D. In a perfect world, he'd probably be a utility guy playing all over the infield regularly but he's fine as a starter as well. Happy to see Biggio get some more PAs and do well. He is a perfect fit for what the Jays need if he's hitting (LH bat who gets on base) and hopefully fewer PAs for Tapia.
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Mike Green - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 09:36 AM EDT (#416328) #
Espinal has delivered 3.6 fWAR in 593 career PA.  He's been a 4 WAR player so far.  Biggio has delivered 4.3 fWAR in 1103 career PA.  He's been a 2.5 WAR player so far.  Deee-fense.  Incidentally, Espinal has a career BABIP of .330 and Biggio's is .304.  That difference makes total sense given Biggio's vulnerability to the shift and his flyball tendency.

Espinal backs up Bichette and Chapman (and Biggio plays second when he does).  Biggio backs up Guerrero Jr., Gurriel and Hernandez.  Espinal gets a few extra PAs and time at second base when everyone is healthy and rested.  Happy problem solved. 
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uglyone - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 09:54 AM EDT (#416329) #
I'll just always be worried about espinal because his milb track record says even a 90wrc+ was unlikely.He's just approaching a full season's worth of career PA right now (593pa career) and while his career 101wrc+ is very solid for an elite D guy there's a realistic chance that his recent scuffles aren't just a slump but maybe the league getting a book on him for the first time....in which case even a 90wrc+ might be a reach longterm. Of course, he can still be a valuable starter a la Pillar even in the 85-90 range.


But Biggio up at 116wrc+ now is right back in line with his first two years and making last year look more and more like an outlier. And of course we keep talking about the need for lefties.

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John Northey - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:03 AM EDT (#416330) #
I like the Espinal/Biggio mix - with the need for rest days for assorted players (Vlad at DH, Gurriel at DH, etc.) you can put Biggio into LF/1B/2B while Espinal goes 2B/3B/SS depending on need. If a guy who is killer to RH hitters is on the mound you might give Espinal a day off, a killer to LH you give Biggio a day off. This works very well in the days of a short bench. In a perfect world we'd have another utility guy on the bench who can cover OF/IF ala Capra but Zimmer is ideal for late inning defense/pinch running. Tapia seems to be a good guy on the bench - IE: doesn't whine, has speed, a bat that isn't great but good enough to pinch hit for Zimmer. Collins is good enough to hit for Espinal vs a tough RH pitcher, and being a catcher can be available so you can DH Kirk more often (run for him, etc.).
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greenfrog - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:18 AM EDT (#416331) #
I think the Jays could use an upgrade in the outfield. Take all the playing time assigned to Tapia/Zimmer and give it to a good LHH player who can play center field. Besides, Springer is probably going to have to move to a corner OF position in the next year or two, and the Jays are lacking in outfield depth, especially at CF.

Alek Thomas could be a good trade target (assuming Corbin Carroll can’t be acquired).
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uglyone - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:41 AM EDT (#416332) #
Yup.

And I think Gurriel would be attractive tradebait for that CF, especially if that CF has a significant price tag.
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John Northey - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#416333) #
For CF long term what are the internal kid options?
  • Jordan Groshans: SS/3B right now, 2 games in RF this year but not in CF yet. Hitting 272/374/325 in AAA at age 22.
  • Orelvis Martinez: SS/3B right now, never played anywhere else. At 20 in AA hitting 223/295/486
  • Gabriel Moreno: a catcher who I can't picture in the OF, but who knows? Craig Biggio was a catcher who moved to CF (and 2B). Weirder things have happened
  • Cam Eden: 24 in AA hitting 238/304/381 over 19 games, but overall (A+/A/AA) hitting 278/349/470, a 6th round pick in 2019 - could he push through this year? Possible.
  • Dasan Brown: age 20, A/rookie - 255/372/402, 3rd round pick in 2019. Potential long term but 2 years away at least.
Those are guys who I thought of as potentials for a long term CF solution, but the best guys are not CF but play elsewhere. Could they handle CF? Maybe. But right now I think a trade is the best potential solution. But to get Alek Thomas or Corbin Carroll you'd be looking at a package involving Orelvis and others. I wouldn't be shocked if it cost Moreno.
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Chuck - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 12:05 PM EDT (#416334) #
I think Gurriel would be attractive tradebait for that CF

What about Gurriel would be so appealing to another team? He's cheap, yes, but seems at best a 2-WAR player, surely the type of player organizations generally believe they can produce on their own.

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Dewey - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 12:06 PM EDT (#416335) #
Seattle mgr Scott Servais gets off ascot free.

Hey, Magpie; the little things. Where’d you get “ascot free”? The town of Ascot is probably best known for the neckwear associated with its name, and for its famous race-course; but not for skipping taxes. “Skat” is an old Scandinavian word for a tax, and was brought to Britain long, long ago -- gradually becoming “scot” but still a tax. (And it has nothing to do with Scotland.) Someone not paying their taxes went “scot free”.

Thought you might want to know, so I put on my old hat again.
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dalimon5 - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 12:16 PM EDT (#416336) #
Alek Thomas would be a perfect acquisition. I’d trade Gurriel + for him.

If Jansen isn’t traded before the deadline to promote Moreno (similar to KC trading Santana to promote their top prospect) then I believe Moreno, Groshans or some combination of prospects will be moved instead for starting pitching and bullpen help.

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Ryan Day - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 12:39 PM EDT (#416337) #
Gurriel is also a free agent after next season, so even if you think you can unlock the superstar within & skip the months where he's terrible, he'll get extremely expensive. I don't imagine he's that appealing to a rebuilding team.
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Magpie - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 12:40 PM EDT (#416338) #
Where’d you get “ascot free”?

It was a slip of the thumb. (Left-hand pinky, to be truthful. I was waiting for someone to notice!)
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Chuck - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#416339) #
I was waiting for someone to notice!

Remaining silent is our way of conjuring Dewey.

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Nigel - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 12:48 PM EDT (#416340) #
At almost 29, I doubt that many teams see Gurriel for something other than what he is (good and bad). He would have some trade value but I can’t imagine it being that significant.
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greenfrog - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 12:56 PM EDT (#416341) #
I imagine the ask for Thomas would be Moreno. That might not be a fair trade for the Jays. Probably the D-Backs see Carroll and Thomas (both of whom are very young) as cornerstones in their outfield for the long haul.

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85bluejay - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#416342) #
I think the D-Backs see Thomas & Carroll as cornerstones, so a team would likely have to overpay - I think someone like Ian Happ of the Cubs is more realistic.
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Magpie - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 01:07 PM EDT (#416343) #
The town of Ascot is probably best known for the neckwear associated with its name

I suppose, but not to me. (I have a twisted perspective on many things.) Ascot is the site of the big house in the country John Lennon bought in 1969 after his first marriage ended so dramatically. It's the scene of the last Beatles photo shoot, and the location where Imagine was recorded. That enormous mansion where he sang "imagine no possessions."
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John Northey - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#416344) #
Ian Happ certainly fits the Jays MO - LF/CF but can also play 2B/3B/RF (all last year), also 1B and even pitched once (1 inning mop up). In college he played 36 games at SS, and did another mop up inning in summer college ball. He has 2 years of control (this year and next) and has a 134 OPS+ this year. Given the Cubs are out of it (17 games under 500) I figure they'd be happy to do a deal if they feel they are getting something worthwhile. They also have David Robertson (an excellent 1 year rental for the pen), and another reliever named Scott Effross who would be sweet (11.6 K vs 2.3 BB per 9 IP, not a free agent until after 2027, age 28).

For those 2 relievers plus Happ I could see the Jays giving up a higher end prospect (such as Jordan Groshans) plus a minor prospect or two. Maybe send them Gurriel instead of the minor prospects thus opening up a playing slot (Happ in LF - CF on Springer days off). The Trade Simulator (used to make sure I'm not overvaluing Jays prospects) says Groshans & Gurriel is a moderate overpay for the 2 relievers plus Happ, but dang would that solve a lot of the Jays issues. Much deeper pen with 2 flame throwers, more balanced lineup with a switch hitting CF/LF who in a pinch can cover infield slots too. Cost is one of our OF'ers who drives us nuts with his on again/off again defense and offense, and a prospect there is literally no space for. C'mon Atkins go for it!
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Lylemcr - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#416345) #
The lack of left handed hitters has been apparent lately, IMO. And means that the Jays roll out Tapia and Biggio more. They really need to address it.

Here is a thought.
- Winker and someone from the bullpen
- Gurriel and Otto Lopez.

Winker's OBP is 350+ He has a good eye at the plate. If inserted into the Jays lineup and not playing in Safeco, his numbers would go up considerably. I am not sure the Mariners would want Gurriel, but they could use something to give that offense a spark.
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uglyone - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#416346) #
"What about Gurriel would be so appealing to another team? He's cheap, yes, but seems at best a 2-WAR player, surely the type of player organizations generally believe they can produce on their own."

It might get lost here on our squad but on many teams his 110-115wrc+ type bat would legit be one of their very best hitters. And on top of that he's got all that eye testy athletic stuff going for him too. Intangibles enthusiasm energy and health too. Even his poor defense is hidden somewhat by his gun of an arm. And of course he's dirt cheap. I could see many teams liking him as a better strict value per war piece than a better but more expensive guy they'd be moving out.
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uglyone - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#416347) #
Whoa I just gave myself a flashback of the Green for Mondesi trade.
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greenfrog - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 01:44 PM EDT (#416348) #
I doubt Groshans has a lot of appeal for other teams. He's getting on base at a good clip this year but the power has been absent (one home run in 179 PA). That's not going to cut it as a starting third baseman in the majors.

I imagine Moreno, Tiedemann and Orelvis are the prospects teams are most interested in.

Btw Samad Taylor (#10) made BA's Hot Sheet for this week.
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85bluejay - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#416349) #
While I like Winker's bat, he seems better suited to a team that can hide his defense (1B/DH) - also I don't know if Seattle is ready to give up their WC aspirations yet.
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92-93 - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#416350) #
Wacha has reverse splits, so naturally the Jays ignored them to start Tapia in CF today. Apparently Springer couldn't wait till tomorrow for his half day, and Zimmer is not allowed to start. There was a fly out down the left field line last night that Biggio looked very natural retrieving. He would probably be just as good as Tapia in CF, all things considered. Go get em, Raimel.
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Magpie - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#416351) #
Sergio Romo is throwing in the bullpen at this very moment. No roster move yet, but if I were Shaun Anderson it would be good if I hadn't finished unpacking.
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hypobole - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#416352) #
Pearson shut down 3-4 weeks before he can begin throwing.
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John Northey - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 04:47 PM EDT (#416353) #
ALek Thomas is not a guy who would cost Gurriel + minor stuff, he'd cost Kirk or Moreno. The trade simulator suggests if you don't want to give either of them up it would cost Groshans, Martinez, and Tiedemann . Sounds high, but Thomas is 22 and is hitting 267/327/433 in his first full season with 6 full years of control after this. He would be an ideal piece to add for this year and beyond though. If Arizona asked for those 3 I'd have to seriously debate it as it would fill a hole while leaving a need for the team to fill 3B in 2 years and losing one of our top pitching prospects. But this is win now and he'd be a win now and long term. I guess it would all fall on what the scouts say about all the players too - do they see Martinez and Tiedemann as core pieces going forward?

I suspect it all depends on how big of a home run the Jays are going for - do you put in a lot of chips to get that elusive CF so you don't keep using Springer in CF with Tapia as the main backup, or do you hold onto most of them and get a temporary 1-2 year solution like Happ? Do you spend on pitching help instead? Tough questions. But at least the Jays have those chips now as Atkins, like AA, spent the early years building up the farm. AA spent most of it in 2013-2015 to get those 2 playoff appearances. Now Atkins has to decide how much to spend to try to make it in 2022-? and how much he spends and who he gets will determine that end year. Thomas and Carroll both would be sweet, but I'd like to hold the 3 catchers if possible and do the rotating DH thing with them (one catches, another DH's, 3rd on the bench each game). But I also don't want to lose Martinez and Tiedemann - Groshans I see as a part of any major trade this summer (nowhere to play him right now and he is due to come up this year or early next, not 2024 when 3B opens up).

Corbin Carroll is a better player - hitting 313/430/643 in AA at age 21. Yikes. A LH hitter, a bit short at 5'10" 165 lbs. which never causes the Jays to worry but might cut his value to evaluators a bit. Thomas is 5'11" 175 lbs so they are similar in stature. Carroll has some warning signs - 14.8% BB%, 24.5% K%, 379 BABIP (so his numbers are inflated a bit) but his wRC+ is 168 after a 263 last year, mix in 20-3 SB-CS and there really isn't anything not to like there.

Other ways to get there - the Diamondbacks might want to clear some bad deals. Bumgarner would be a nice #5 for the Jays right now, and has a great playoff record, but is owed $23 mil this year, and $37 mil over the next 2 and is a marginal starter now, not a #1/2/3 guy. Nick Ahmed is a SS on the IL who is owed $7.8 mil this year and $10.4 next year but a backup now for them (TS sees him as a big net negative). Taking on either would free up cash for Arizona while allowing the Jays to pay less. I think if the Jays could get Bumgarner as part of the deal it could make it work with Groshans and other non-top 5 prospects in the system while also being an asset for 2022, then dumping him in the winter if he doesn't regain anything.

Bottom line? Either Thomas or Carroll would be an ideal player to acquire, but either would be very, very expensive. There are ways to make a deal happen though.
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greenfrog - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#416354) #
Another option would be to try for Benintendi and then look for a longer-term outfield solution in the off-season. Happ is another possibility (as 85bluejay mentioned).
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Mike Green - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 05:06 PM EDT (#416355) #
It's strange to me that Springer is DHing with an elbow injury while a healthy Kirk sits.  I've got no issue with Springer having the day off, but if you are going to rest a guy with an elbow injury, a full day rather than a DH day makes a lot more sense.  All the more so with Kirk available to DH.  Kirk is probably at least a comparable hitter to Springer at this point.  
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greenfrog - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#416356) #
Fair point, but Kirk may also need some rest at this point. I like that the team seems to be trying to avoid burning him out.
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Lylemcr - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 06:10 PM EDT (#416357) #
I am still more interested in a bullpen arm\starter than another OF. I really like some of the arms in Seattle. For example, Munoz. (41K in 28 innings! Exactly what we need).

That being said, if you can swap 2 underachievers (like Gurriel and Winker) that would be nice.

The fact that the Mariners signed Upton and are kicking the wheels on Carlos Santana, means that they are scrambling to find something, without giving up anything. They might be a good fit for Groshans. Most of their top infield prospects are in A.

Gurriel,and Groshans
for Winker and Munoz.

I hate trading Gurriel, but there are too many RHB.

I guess we could trade for Winker and have 4 OF, but with the emergence of Kirk, I would hate for him to lose AB to one of them.
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dalimon5 - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#416358) #
Mike, there is no point in speculating that the manager is sitting Kirk since we don’t know if Kirk is available or not.

He could be sitting because Montoyo wants to give him a day off.

He could be sitting because he had asked for a day off.

He could be sitting because he is feeling pain from hit by bat a few days ago.

He could be sitting because of a bug/flu.

He could be sitting because the team promised to give Moreno some starts behind the plate and also prefer Springer at DH.

He could be sitting because the starter prefers Moreno.

He could be sitting because the manager forgot about him…

There’s way too many reasons why Kirk may not be starting and assuming it’s because the front office or manager doesn’t realize he’s good is a bit… you know..
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John Northey - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 06:20 PM EDT (#416359) #
6 games in a row for Kirk (435/519/1000) - 4 catching/2 DH, so a day off makes sense. 10 straight before that (233/378/400). I can see why they are being careful. 4 straight before that (500/579/875), 6 before that (476/522/905), 4 before that, 12 before that (796 OPS), 6 before that (now into April), 5 before that, 9 before that (676 OPS), 2 before that. Clearly the Jays have a plan with him. Games before a game off: 2-9-5-6-12-4-6-4-6. Seems to me 6 is a reasonable # to use. 6 games, 1 off, which would be 139 games in a full season. A good number to shoot for with a catcher who hits like Kirk does. This way he won't need another day off until the Oakland series after the Red Sox & Rays. Next off day would be vs Philly, then vs Boston (afternoon game after a night game), then vs Detroit to be fresh for another Rays series. I like it if the Jays stick to 6 on/1 off.
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christaylor - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 06:21 PM EDT (#416360) #
...or the flip side, Springer's elbow injury may not be that serious. Springer is being told to test the elbow without the risks that can come from playing CF. I was a Kirk doubter. I'm not a fan exactly, but I can read the stats even if he's not getting there with the prototypical ballplayer physique. There is plenty of time for him to flame out in the future, but for now, I believe everyone who has watched him play realizes there is something to his skill set. He likely won't age well (his 23 is probably any other player's 27) but let's enjoy him and be glad that the team does not want to push him before the kids are back in class for the fall term.
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christaylor - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#416361) #
Oi. Please don't remind me of my least favorite Jays trade ever. I'd just renewed my fandom after starting uni and then that happened. Watching Delgado and Halladay blossom kept me going but I almost hit pause and went back to paying scant attention to the team.
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uglyone - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#416362) #
But this is that trade....in reverse!
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Magpie - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#416363) #
Gurriel's hitting .366/.402/.512 this month. Clearly, he needs to go!
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Magpie - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 06:46 PM EDT (#416364) #
The Jays are 2-6 when Moreno starts behind the plate, and both of the Wins were Stripling's games - he's 2-1, 1.72 in their three starts together.
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christaylor - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 07:06 PM EDT (#416365) #
Magpie is getting into big data now! Let's throw some AI and a neural network at that! (I kid, however, if Moreno is up, he needs to play. Our memories about Vlad ought not to be that short.)
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Magpie - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 07:18 PM EDT (#416366) #
if Moreno is up, he needs to play

Especially if you're a catcher, and there just won't be enough opportunity once Jansen is back.

His defensive tools are pretty impressive (as I watch him gun down another base stealer!) but on general principle I'm not keen on promoting catchers in mid-season. It's not the best time to be getting in sync with a dozen new pitches and a whole league of new opponents.
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Magpie - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 07:26 PM EDT (#416367) #
Stripling's first hit was against Wacha - later in the game he reached on an error and scored his first run in the majors. And when it was over, he got the decision for his first major league Win.
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92-93 - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 07:39 PM EDT (#416368) #
What a catch, Raimel!
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Magpie - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 07:40 PM EDT (#416369) #
He Feeds On Our Scorn
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uglyone - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#416370) #
"Gurriel's hitting .366/.402/.512 this month. Clearly, he needs to go!"

I don't get why everyone is so resistant to the idea of trading our worst position player for an upgrade.


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92-93 - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#416371) #
He should've called off Bichette the play before. Now single and steal to lead off the 2nd.
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92-93 - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 07:49 PM EDT (#416372) #
A walk is a great troll.
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Magpie - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 08:08 PM EDT (#416373) #
Arroyo had never played the outfield as a pro, minors or majors, until this April. This is his 16th game out there.
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greenfrog - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#416377) #
“Small things” fail by Teoscar there. That was important not only because it wasted an out with a runner (Teoscar) on base, but it allowed Wacha to escape the fifth inning without going over 90 pitches. Bad mistake against a key rival.
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BlueJayWay - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 09:05 PM EDT (#416378) #
Teoscar giveth, and Teoscar taketh...
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greenfrog - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 09:29 PM EDT (#416379) #
The home run by Refsnyder doesn’t bother me all that much. The walk to Cordero very much does.

And wouldn’t it have been better to go Cimber (2 IP), Mayza (1 IP), and Romano (1 IP) to close out the win?
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Magpie - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 09:40 PM EDT (#416380) #
And wouldn’t it have been better to go Cimber (2 IP), Mayza (1 IP), and Romano (1 IP) to close out the win?

In theory, but modern relievers are one-inning creatures. Neither Cimber nor Mayza has gone longer than a single inning since mid-April. And they needed Phelps last night because they didn't trust Anderson to get six outs. Thornton needed to step up, and Rob Freaking Refsnyder beat him.
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greenfrog - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#416381) #
Thornton beat himself when he walked Cordero (a below-average hitter) to bring the tying run to the plate.

Giving the Red Sox free outs and free baserunners isn’t exactly an ideal recipe for a win.
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uglyone - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#416382) #
Story really bailed mayza out there.

Hopefully mayza takes advantage.

Clutch time.
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Gerry - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 09:51 PM EDT (#416383) #
Mayza in June before tonight...5.1 innings, 8 hits, 4 walks, 3 strikeouts.

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uglyone - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#416384) #
Not so clutch time. That's a bad outing.
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Magpie - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#416385) #
Cimber threw 17 pitches, Mayza threw 22 - it's unlikely they're available tomorrow (Montoyo hasn't used either the next day if they threw that many pitches in a game.)

Help us Sergio Romo. You're our only hope.
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lexomatic - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:02 PM EDT (#416386) #
Very tired of 5 inning starts and bullpen implosion. I wasn't watching to see if it was necessary, but yeah.
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greenfrog - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:08 PM EDT (#416387) #
I hope Kirk leads off B9 if the game is still close.
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uglyone - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:10 PM EDT (#416388) #
Last night gausman didn't to stay in.

Tonight stripling could have stayed in for another.

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Four Seamer - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:13 PM EDT (#416389) #
I get the reluctance to let Stripling run through the lineup a third time, but that’s a luxury that you can’t afford when your bullpen is going as poorly as it is right now. This everybody plays approach is great in little league but doesn’t play as well in the major leagues.
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greenfrog - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:15 PM EDT (#416390) #
I don’t know. Cimber did a great job of shutting down the Red Sox heart of the order in the sixth. That felt like the right move.
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greenfrog - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:21 PM EDT (#416391) #
Maybe it runs counter to the modern game, but Cimber has a rubber arm and excellent control and he had barely pitched in the last week. I bet he could have handled the bottom of the Red Sox order in T7.
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lexomatic - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:23 PM EDT (#416392) #
And Kirk delivers
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uglyone - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:25 PM EDT (#416393) #
Well no excuses not to win here.
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greenfrog - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:26 PM EDT (#416394) #
Don’t hack, Bo.
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greenfrog - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:27 PM EDT (#416395) #
Clutch.
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uglyone - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:27 PM EDT (#416396) #
Hack bo hack!!!!

NICE.
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uglyone - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:30 PM EDT (#416397) #
Boom.

That's a big win.

Now sweep this sonsabitches.
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greenfrog - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:32 PM EDT (#416398) #
Actually Bo didn’t hack at all. He drove a strike oppo for a base hit. Perfect.
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Magpie - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:34 PM EDT (#416399) #
Nice win. Everybody in the lineup, and most of the pitchers, made real contributions. Too bad Montoyo had to use five relievers, but big Alek goes tomorrow.
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BlueJayWay - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:39 PM EDT (#416400) #
Great approaches in the ninth inning. Kirk is a god (probably). One run win...
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Magpie - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 10:41 PM EDT (#416401) #
So after Sean Murphy gets called twice for catcher's interference in the same inning, setting up the Yankees winning rally - he comes to bat in the ninth tonight with two out down 2-0 and Trevino gets called for interference on him. He comes around to score, but it's Oakland and they still manage to lose.
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uglyone - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 11:07 PM EDT (#416402) #
Red Sox Nation seems to be....unimpressed with Houck's priorities.
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Chuck - Tuesday, June 28 2022 @ 11:50 PM EDT (#416403) #
Fledgling scientists need lab time to conduct their research.
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John Northey - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 12:06 AM EDT (#416404) #
I figure that is why it was all hands on deck last night and tonight. With Alek Manoah going tomorrow you know odds are you won't need more than 3-4 innings from the pen. Plus we get a new guy in Romo. OK, not really excited about Romo and he hasn't pitched since June 18th (1 inning, 3 H 2 R 0 BB 1 SO 1 HR). On the bright side Romo before June threw 8 IP over 8 G 5 H 1 R/ER 1 BB 5 SO, then June hit (9 G 6 1/3 IP 13 H 12 R/ER 3 BB 6 SO 6 HR). Ouch. But on the good side again, in June he only had 2 games with an aLI of 1+, and went 1 1/3 IP 1 H 1 BB 3 SO. So maybe he needs pressure to do well, which he'll get here in spades. Maybe. One can hope.

So tomorrow... Anderson has just 1 day off so if still here he won't be usable. Castillo has had 3 days off since his 59 pitch game so he is available if needed in long relief unless moving to the rotation. Cimber had thrown only 6 pitches the past week so he could be available if needed for an inning or to close out an inning. Gage only threw 7 pitches tonight, but I doubt the Jays want to push him too much, maybe to close out an inning. Phelps will be minimal use most likely, but might do a full inning if needed. Thornton just 10 pitches so he could be used again but probably not. Guess the big question is who goes down to make room. Thornton is on his option so he can easily, but he has been good in the right role (long relief). Anderson I think is next on the 'send down list' and has an option. Castillo and Gage both deserve to stay imo. So Thornton or Anderson goes down, always a chance of both so more reinforcements can come up.
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John Northey - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 12:21 AM EDT (#416405) #
Oh yeah, it is fun to read the game thread at Sons of Sam Horn right now. I linked to the page where the 9th happened. So much fun. 4 pages of curses towards their closer who won't get a needle. Lots of rage about how the Yankees players all got their shots, but 3 Red Sox idiots couldn't be bothered (still doing their research it seems).
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 08:07 AM EDT (#416406) #
https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/boston-media-explodes-after-red-sox-blow-it-without-unvaccinated-closer-houck/
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 09:25 AM EDT (#416408) #
i want to take back my questioning of the quick hook on stripling....i was running around and thought that thornton had come in for stripling which had me a bit annoyed. but Cimber against the meat of their order is a better option than stripling 3rd time through so that's a good move. I don't even mind not pushing Cimber another inning - Thornton should have been able to deal with the bottom of the order, setting up Mayza and Romano to handle the high leverage innings vs the top of the order. Mayza is not pitching well the last little while but he's still supposed to be one of our bullpen aces.
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hypobole - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 09:36 AM EDT (#416409) #
Just got my 4th Covid shot about 2 weeks ago. I get yearly flu shots, got vaccinated for shingles, pneumonia and any other my doctor recommends But as far as the players that haven't been vaccinated, I don't think it's correct calling them idiots.

One of my sons has severe OCD. It's not by choice, it's a mental health disorder. I believe it's also the case with more than a few anti-vaxxers. Kyrie Irving is among the most prominent in sports. A few years back he made headlines by announcing his flat-earth beliefs. This is not a person who sees the world the way you and I do. And I don't believe he thinks this way by choice.
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92-93 - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:08 AM EDT (#416410) #
The real issue was using Phelps for the second night in a row up 7-0 on Monday night. If Gage, Mayza, and Thornton were unavailable in that spot then the team was playing far too shorthanded.

It was great to see the Jays grind some ABs late in the game and actually wait for good pitches to hit. It feels like as a whole the team is less patient than they were last year, and it's why Biggio is an important part of the lineup.
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Magpie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:18 AM EDT (#416411) #
The real issue was using Phelps for the second night in a row up 7-0 on Monday night.

I think that's correct. The main reason they were so short-handed, of course, was the useless work turned in by Berrios and Kikuchi on the days preceding. They actually brought in a new reliever for the occasion, but Montoyo didn't want to trust Anderson with the eighth inning. Which may have been prudent.

In retrospect, it would have been better to pitch Romano in the eighth on Monday rather than Phelps, odd as it would have been.
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Magpie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:32 AM EDT (#416412) #
I don't believe [Irving] thinks this way by choice.

I don't know that anybody thinks the way they do by choice - ultimately, we all are whatever we are. We're shaped and influenced by the experiences we accumulate along our way. But we are what we are. Kyrie Irving doesn't seem all that weird to me because I recognize the type. I see one in the mirror on a regular basis. Some of us are just instinctively contrarian, and we really can't help it. If there's a whole crowd of people proclaiming that Raimel Tapia is a piece of crap, I will absolutely look for ways to contradict that. I don't actually think he's a particularly good player. I still have to, I can't help myself. Kyrie Irving, however, has spent much of his life being told how special and how exceptional he is - because it's true - and he's never quite had the same need to trim his sails a bit.

There are certainly legitimate reasons for an individual to be wary of getting any kind of vaccination. Anthony Rizzo clearly got his shots, but one can certainly understand his hesitation. I'm less patient with those who claim to "doing their own research." I don't think they're spending much time in the laboratory or the library. I think they're clicking a few pages on the internet.
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Mike Green - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:47 AM EDT (#416413) #
Not all anti-vaxxers are the same, that's for sure.  But I take the anti-vaxx, anti-mask crew personally, having had an immediate family member with a blood cancer in 2021 and having to listen to those who would describe their anti-vaxx, anti-mask behaviour (with phony exemption from mask requirements) as a meaningful exercise of personal freedom.  For me, they're the same as people who run red lights in the middle of the day whether their behaviour is due to stupidity or self-centredness or a mental health disorder or some combination of those.  For what it's worth, I would have much more patience for anti-vaxxers who wear masks regularly in public indoor settings but I have yet to meet one of those. 

Two wins down, fifteen to go.  It would be a particularly good time for a complete game from Mount Manoah, who will not be pitching during the 5 games in 4 days with Tampa.  Planning for that is going to be a real test of mettle for Montoyo/Walker.  One hint: Tampa does better against LHPs.   It's a good series to use Kikuchi in a role other than starter, and perhaps in low leverage situations to begin.  Second hint: you want to use Kikuchi, Gage and Mayza strategically to come in for 4 or 5 batters in the mid-innings to clean out the left-handed hitters rather than planning on using two left-handed pitchers in the same game (as in last night). 
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hypobole - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#416414) #
I dunno, Magpie, Irving goes far, far beyond basic contrarianism. Don't see how a person being told how special and how exceptional he is (as almost all successful athletes are) would turn that person into flat-earther and an intransigent anti-vaxxer. There is definitely a psychological condition at play here.
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Chuck - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 11:00 AM EDT (#416415) #
Kyrie Irving, however, has spent much of his life being told how special and how exceptional he is

"Normal people keep the world going, but those who dare to be different lead us into tomorrow."
-- from his tweet announcing he was opting into his contract with Brooklyn

Sure Kyrie, lead us into tomorrow you intellectual titan.

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Magpie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 11:03 AM EDT (#416416) #
Irving goes far, far beyond basic contrarianism.

Could well be - I may simply be afraid that I have could have ended up as far out on some of those ledges if I had been indulged on a similar scale!
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Magpie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 11:07 AM EDT (#416417) #
he was opting into his contract with Brooklyn

He's certainly not the intellectual titan he believes himself to be, but he did manage to figure out that $37 million from the Nets was better than $6 million from the Lakers. Got to give him that.
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jerjapan - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 11:10 AM EDT (#416418) #
cool, thoughtful stuff on a sensitive topic.  sadly rare these days.  i will say though, hypo, be careful diagnosing mental illness from afar.  you don't have the information to say that Kyrie has a disorder.  just like your sons OCD, or my depression, there are many criteria required before diagnosis. 

honestly, mount manoah is a quality nickname.  i could get behind that one. 


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Magpie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 11:16 AM EDT (#416419) #
While we contrarians probably aren't uncommon in the world at large, I don't know that many become great athletes. We're not well suited to being part of a team. When everybody wants to pull in one direction... That's not a big deal if you're Novak Djokovic. I suppose goalies can get away with it (hey, I was a goalie!) Pitchers, probably. Kickers.
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Cracka - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#416420) #
Haven't heard much about Tayler Saucedo, but wonder if he might be in the mix to return soon (even against the Rays?) He's made 5 rehab appearances with Buffalo and 4 of them were very good. Of course, not sure if we'd want 3 LHP in the pen and I wouldn't want Saucedo over Matt Gage. It also looks like Sergio Romo is getting Saucedo's #54!

Speaking of Romo, I have low on-field expectations, but I think he's a tremendous personality to add to the staff... similar to LaTroy Hawkins (2015) or Jason Grilli (2016), but probably even a higher pedigree: 3x WS winner, All-Star, 5 seasons as a closer... and also fluently bilingual. If it was 3 years ago, I'd be all over this acquisition. But today he seems like a "bottom of the order" guy at best.
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Magpie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#416421) #
Romo's always been tougher on RH batters, as you'd expect from a guy who throws from that arm angle. But he's dealt with LH batters well enough. And this season, it's the RH batters who ran him out of Seattle.
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Chuck - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 11:29 AM EDT (#416422) #
Contrarianism is one thing. Narcissism is another. It's the combination that is especially repellent.

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92-93 - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 11:36 AM EDT (#416423) #
At this point, it's pretty clear that 2 doses of the vaccine is useless for young, healthy athletes. It's Canada's border policy that is idiotic, not Tanner Houck or his unvaccinated teammates. If people still think the vaccine is effective at reducing transmission then Canada should update the policy and require a 3rd shot, which half of Canada's "idiots" haven't taken.
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 11:57 AM EDT (#416424) #
how is it that people still don't understand that vaccines are to stop spread?

weird.
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 11:58 AM EDT (#416425) #
not to mention that the US has the same border policy anyways.
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hypobole - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#416426) #
hypo, be careful diagnosing mental illness from afar.

God willing, we will prevail, in peace and freedom from fear, and in true health, through the purity and essence of our natural... fluids. God bless you all." And he hung up.
[Pause as he realizes the implications of General Ripper's words]
Turgidson: Uh, we're... still trying to figure out the meaning of that last phrase, sir.
Muffley: There's nothing to figure out, General Turgidson. This man is obviously a psychotic.
Turgidson: We-he-ell, uh, I'd like to hold off judgment on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in.

I don't go around diagnosing people, but sometimes facts speak for themselves.Should I have just agreed Kyrie and others of his ilk are just idiots?
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Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 12:35 PM EDT (#416427) #
Teoscar giveth, and Teoscar taketh...

Jobu favours the biblical cadence of He Who Feeds Upon Our Scorn.

Anagrams:
reenforced whoosh upon us
cornrow heeds house of pun

I dislike the negativity of combinations like "porous defence..."

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budgell - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 12:51 PM EDT (#416428) #
Kyrie Irving, however, has spent much of his life being told how special and how exceptional he is
"Normal people keep the world going, but those who dare to be different lead us into tomorrow."
-- from his tweet announcing he was opting into his contract with Brooklyn

Sure Kyrie, lead us into tomorrow you intellectual titan.

Got a chuck(le) out of this
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hypobole - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 01:00 PM EDT (#416429) #
Almost forgot I was going to ask this. Refsnyder was a minor league FA signing, as was Drury by Cincy. Both are doing great.

Jays have signed minor league FA's, but the only ones I recall having any success are pitchers, Phelps being the latest. Anyone think of the last good position player signing?
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Magpie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 01:03 PM EDT (#416430) #
Italics begone!
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Magpie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 01:05 PM EDT (#416431) #
Still here? Still hanging around?
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Magpie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 01:19 PM EDT (#416432) #
I was just out running some errands and I got to thinking about the strangeness of being a goalie, his anxiety at the penalty kick, and how it does and does not resemble being a baseball team's closer. The reason a goalie is part of the team, and yet not part of the team, is because the goalie can do nothing to help his team win. You have to score in order to win, and the goalie doesn't help much. What the goalie can do for you is lose. The goalie can lose the game all by himself, despite the best efforts of everyone else, despite everyone else playing wonderfully. That's the strange burden and I think the only way to cope is, deep down, not to care all that much. It's why I don't think Jack Campbell of the Leafs isn't really cut out for the job, despite his considerable talent. He seems to feel that he's let the team down, and feels bad about it. Of course he's let the team down. That's what happens! That's the job! You can't worry about it. You can't let it bother you. You can't let anything bother you longer than it takes the fish the puck out of the net behind you.

A baseball team's closer is in a very similar situation, obviously. He did nothing to put his team in a position to win. All he can do is blow their chance of actually winning (and that's even what we call it when it happens!) But the vast majority of them have been other kinds of pitchers before ending up in this situation - starters, other kinds of relievers - and have had very different kinds of experiences in the game. But that's why closing is different. Take it from an old goalie.
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electric carrot - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#416433) #
The older I get the more I learn that judging others from afar is a fools game. But I have to admit that in the case of Kyrie Irving I really am sorely tempted to let go of this hard earned wisdom.
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92-93 - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#416434) #
How quickly we forget the great Munenori Kawasaki.
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Magpie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 01:44 PM EDT (#416435) #
How quickly we forget the great Munenori Kawasaki.

Speak for yourself, heathen!

Still, the best thing about Kawasaki was how he made Jeff Blair go crazy. And I like Jeff! But something about Kawasaki's presence on the field made him apoplectic with rage. It was so funny.
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Magpie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#416436) #
Geez, you think Dewey's going to catch the dreadful double negative in my meditation on goalies?
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hypobole - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 02:09 PM EDT (#416437) #
Thanks, 92-93. How could I have forgotten the guy who taught me that monkeys don't get cramps?
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Lylemcr - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 03:05 PM EDT (#416438) #
"Gurriel's hitting .366/.402/.512 this month. Clearly, he needs to go!"

It is not that he needs to go, it is just that he is the least of the 3 OF and the team needs a left handed bat. Montoya tends to play Biggio and Tapia more because of this.
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lexomatic - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#416439) #
But as far as the players that haven't been vaccinated, I don't think it's correct calling them idiots.
I think it's reasonable to call the leaders who haven't updated guidance based on tons of evidence idiots and or corrupt. Most people are following the poor guidance they've been given.Like others have said I don't think mental health has anything to do with it, or it's a coincidence that doesn't impact anything. Lack of critical thinking - could be educational opportunities, effects of poverty growing up (multiple hunger, quality of education, health.... ), actual capacity (so being an idiot). So many things individually or in combination. It would be difficult to assert anything with certainty even if I knew them or had any relevant training. 

My 3 year old got turned away for a US vaccine - which they aren't supposed to do, per CDC.
We're going back Friday, hopefully.
I'm at 7.5 months. Hoping to get vaxxed when I'm near Gatineau in 2 weeks , but I don't want to go out. I am very angry at the complete failure of political and public health leadership throughout the pandemic. 
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ISLAND BOY - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 03:30 PM EDT (#416440) #
Well, if Canadians had died from Covid at the same rate as Americans then there would have been 70,000 more Canadian deaths. I wouldn't say there was a complete failure at the Canadian political level. Anyway, I would rather talk about baseball.
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Glevin - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 03:34 PM EDT (#416441) #
Why does Biggio always hit 9th? His lifetime and year OBP are both over .350. Tapia will hit 5th, 6th despite not being able to hit but Biggio always 9th. Doesn't make sense to me.
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AWeb - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#416442) #
I think that's in part the "2nd leadoff hitter" that some managers like (because the 9th hitter participates in more rallies with the best hitters, there is a marginal advantage to not putting your worst guy there, IIRC). It might also make it easier to arrange lineup substitutions the rest of the game? I don't know, maybe the 2021 stink is just sticking to him. There's always been a weird aura around him, despite good OBP and defensive versatility. I think it's still an open question on whether Bichette or Biggio will actually have a better career, but I'm crazy. Put in robo-umps, and Biggio might benefit the most.
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92-93 - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#416443) #
It's because of the idea that you want a table-setter in front of your best hitters, a "second lead-off hitter" as our favourite broadcasters love to tell us. And Kirk can't bat #2 because he's a "base-clogger".

There are all sorts of batting orders the Jays can roll out that would make sense, but the best one would simply have Springer/Guerrero/Kirk getting the most ABs right now. If Biggio can sustain the .412 OBP he's posted since his return perhaps he will make his way up to #2 vs. RHP. His career OBP is actually higher vs. LHP though.
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Nigel - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#416444) #
I don't understand hitting Biggio 9th either. Nor do I understand having Bichette hit 2nd ahead of Vladdy every day. I'd probably run out Springer, Vladdy, Kirk, Bichette as my top 4. But putting Biggio 2nd against RH starters would also make a great deal of sense.
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Cracka - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#416445) #
Montoyo would say that it's like "having a second leadoff hitter" and statistically there's probably a case to be made to have a good OBP guy (vs. your worst hitter) hitting right before Springer, Bichette, Vladdy, etc. Obviously having your worst OBP guy hit 6th or 7th gives him more PAs, but with this current group, there should be a better hitter on the bench available to pinch-hit for him in late-game situations.

Romo is officially active - Anderson optioned and Saucedo (now "wearing" #46) to the 60-day IL (he last played 60 days ago, so no big deal).
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Magpie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#416446) #
I think they've said it's that whole second leadoff hitter, an OBP guy ahead of the top of the order.

You can clearly enough how Montoyo is doing it. There's a kind of hierarchy among the three LH batters as to who hits ninth, because if any one of them is the lineup - that's where they hit. It's when there's more than one in the lineup that things change. But Zimmer always hits ninth, because he's lousy and Biggio hits ahead of him. Tapia hits ninth unless there's another LH bat in the lineup, in which case he gets bumped up a couple of places to separate the LH batters.
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 05:07 PM EDT (#416447) #
Fangraphs combined projections rest of season:

* 1.Vladdy 163wrc+
* 2.Kirk 138
* 3.Springer 132
* 4.Bo 122
* 5.Teo 119
* 6.Chapman 116
* 7.Jansen 115
* 8.Gurriel 115
* 9.Biggio 109

* 10.Moreno 106
* 11.Collins 94
* 12.Espinal 94
* 13.Tapia 90

* 14.Lopez 87
* 15.Capra 83
* 16.Zimmer 78


Yeah Bo and Kirk should probably swap but it's still the top 4 guys in the top 4 slots so it's nothing crazy

And Biggio staying at the bottom makes sense too.


The inexplicable continues to always be the usage of one Ramiel Tapia, both in size and quality of his role.
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Mike Green - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 05:30 PM EDT (#416448) #
Tapia's wRC+ the last 5 years: 79, 74, 97 (206 PAs), 76, 77.  A projection of a wRC+ of 90 seems, um, optimistic. And even with that optimism, he'd generate 0.2 fWAR in 194 PAs in the remainder of the season.  Zimmer's 78 wRC+ would not result in him being a good substitute, but he would be adequate- providing 0.5 fWAR in those same PAs. 

I wonder when the club will give up.  Last night''s walk and hit guaranteed more opportunities for him and I'm just hoping that he doesn't cost Manoah a game with a defensive lapse.  It's a non-clutch situation so I'm good for the scorn. 
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Magpie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#416449) #
Actually I don't know whether tonight is about He Who Feeds or Teoscar's extremely casual baserunning.
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John Northey - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#416450) #
Of course, anyone who has done simulations knows that batting order is fairly secondary vs who is in that order. Worst possible ordering vs best results in something like 10 runs a year. So a 1 win difference for the most extreme. You get a bigger effect by playing sub-optimal players, or pushing guys until they get hurt and miss 2+ weeks. Lineups are fun, but shifting Bo from 2nd to 5th or Biggio from 9th to 2nd are minimal effects in the big picture.

That said, generally a OBP based order would probably be best, so... Kirk (414), Vlad (364), Biggio (363), Moreno (342), Gurriel (336), Springer (335), Espinal (316), Bo (301), Chapman (301), Hernandez (301) with the 3 remaining bench guys being 9th whenever they play (Collins 288, Tapia 282, Zimmer 208). But I remember back in the 90's when Gaston put Devon White leadoff despite a horrid OBP (often around 300) and how it didn't hurt the team as it gave him confidence and he played better it seemed (102 OPS+ in Toronto vs 89 in California peak of 99 there over 6 seasons vs 5 here).

That's probably why I just shrug my shoulders at oddities in the lineup - if Vlad wants to hit #3 so be it, same with Bo at #2 and Springer at #1. In another year Kirk will be established enough to pick his slot I suspect (#4 most likely), with Hernandez/Gurriel/Espinal/Biggio/etc. all taking what they get from #5-9.
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Polite Nate - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#416451) #
In a lineup with a more pedestrian, high OBP but fringy wRC type, I am less enthusiastic about a "2nd leadoff hitter" approach. But with someone like George Springer leading off I think it absolutely has a ton of value to get more reliable OBP on in front of him.
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John Northey - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#416452) #
Btw, hope everyone here is pushing the Jays to see how many get into the 2nd round of voting for the All-Star Game. It is a silly thing, so I just do the straight Jays ballot then as many ex-Jays or Canadians as I can for the NL, plus more silly votes (I keep voting for Fernando Tatis Jr even though he hasn't played this year just for the stupidity of it). Top 2 move on to round 2.

Last count has Vlad #1 at 1B with almost double anyone else, Espinal #2 at 2B by over 100k votes, Chapman #3 at 3B but no shot at catching the top 2 who each are around half a million votes ahead of him, Bo leads at SS by over 200k votes, and the OF will just have 4 slots for voting since it looks like top vote getter in the AL will be Judge or Trout (both over 2 million votes) with Springer #3, Gurriel #6, Hernandez #7. DH is Jansen (??) who is 3rd but far back of the top 2 (Ohtani and Alvarez). And of course catching is Kirk by a landslide with 1.8 mil votes (3rd in AL) over 1.2 mil ahead of the 2nd place guy.

So safe to say we'll have a lot of Jays to vote for in round 2 next week. Pitchers are not on the ballot sadly. The ASG has always been a popularity contest more than a pick the best since fan voting started (in 1957 the Reds fans stuffed the ballot box to such a degree that only Reds won at each position. One of the worst commissioners ever (and it is a big competition for that slot) Ford Frick decided to kick 3 of the Reds off the team and put in Aaron, Mays, and Musial which made sense in truth but also took away the fan vote for over a decade.

I remember as a kid in the early 80's punching in my ballot (punch cards handed out at the park pre-internet - I think I might still have one or two laying around the house) and in 1986, sitting on those painful metal bleachers in LF at Exhibition Stadium, joking with my Dad that I'd pick Willie Upshaw if he hit a home run that at bat and wouldn't you know it, in one of his worst seasons Upshaw did just that. So yeah, I voted for him. Hmm...looking at his BR page it must have been on my birthday. We normally tried to get to a game around then each year. Fun times.
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Nigel - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#416453) #
Oh I accept that batting order isn't a huge thing. However, I'm surprised that there seems to be support for the idea of hitting Biggio 9th (in order to have his OBP in front of Springer) but there isn't an issue with the .300 OBP of Bichette hitting in front of Vladdy. For me, the one and only line-up design parameter that I would try and stick to with this collection of hitters would be to have a high OBP hitter in front of Vladdy. But maybe that's just me.
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Polite Nate - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 06:19 PM EDT (#416454) #
I would agree, Nigel, except that I think that when it comes to the Big Boys there's an element of personal preferences and internal team dynamics involved, whereas when you get down to 6-7-8-9 it becomes more of a what the coaching staff wants the coaching staff gets. I imagine, anyway.
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Nigel - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#416455) #
Polite Nate - I totally understand. If Springer wants to lead off he gets to lead off even if that might not be the best set up on the whole (its not bad but may not be ideal). But Bichette has hit clean-up on a reasonable number of occasions over the past year and a bit and I don't actually see that being a major obstacle. I don't think Bichette hitting in front of Vladddy is immutable in the way that Springer leading off is.
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hypobole - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 06:38 PM EDT (#416456) #
Last 30 days Tapia 117 wRC+, ahead of Bo, Springer, Espinal.

Last 30 days Jays pen 4.39 ERA, ahead of only Nats, A's, Cubs, Royals, Rockies, Reds.

Not going to post what Kikuchi and Berrios have done the past 30 days.

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John Northey - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 06:45 PM EDT (#416457) #
Thank you hypobole for not posting those ugly figures. No question the pen imo is the #1 priority right now in trades since Berrios and Kikuchi almost certainly aren't going anywhere - maybe Kikuchi to the pen, but Berrios in June had 3 starts that were solid (7+ IP, 3 or fewer runs) and 2 ugly ones (sub 5 IP, 5+ runs). Kikuchi... last did 5 IP on May 28th, and only twice has gone 6 IP, never more, all season. The team is 1-4 in Kikuchi June starts and yes, we can blame him for that (the win was a 10-9 game). The team is 3-2 in Berrios starts (fits with how he pitched) in June. I'd either shift Kikuchi to the pen or have a tandem start for him with someone - tell him he gets 3-4 innings only even if he has a perfect game going, then the next guy comes in for 3-4 innings as well, same rules. See if that works.
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85bluejay - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 06:51 PM EDT (#416458) #
Yes hypobole, BUT Tapia is the #1 problem on the team, requiring endless comments and gnashing of teeth - I predict that if Tapia was removed from the team, the Jays would be unstoppable!
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Mike Green - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#416459) #
Last 30 days, Tapia's fWAR was, IIRC, 0.  He's never been below -0.7 yet but the season is young. 
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hypobole - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 07:19 PM EDT (#416460) #
fWAR is actually +0.1.

Only 6 current pitchers have 0.1 fWAR or better last 30 days.

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Mike Green - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 07:23 PM EDT (#416461) #
He's definitely hot then!
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#416462) #
I was ready for the rage about "2nd leadoff hitter" if espinal hadn't come through there.

Nice at bat tho.
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Kasi - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 07:53 PM EDT (#416463) #
I think they just like having him in the lineup because unlike a lot of our other players he has some decent contact skills. He doesn’t get himself out easily. But when you’re running Chapman, Bo and others out there it’s nice having someone who is not going to just swing 3 straight times for an out. Teo can fit in there too because his approach at times is a bit poor.

It’s just a shame they can’t pair that with someone like Zimmers skill for defence since Tapia has struggled so far this year there. If you could merge the two that would be great but alas. I can see why they want the guy who can at least hit.
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#416464) #
Attaboy George
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#416465) #
Not sure if it was mentioned but Morosi says the jays are in on Benintendi.

He doesn't play any CF anymore tho.
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 08:10 PM EDT (#416466) #
Some Alejandro porn from MLB Network:

https://twitter.com/MLBNetwork/status/1542161466861637632?s=19
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greenfrog - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 08:18 PM EDT (#416467) #
Where did Kirk get hit, and is he okay?
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 08:19 PM EDT (#416468) #
On the elbow, and yes. He's indestructible.

But they best be leaving my Alejandro alone.
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Polite Nate - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 08:21 PM EDT (#416469) #
Elbow, seems fine. If there were warnings issued, that's bad -- random HBP from Manoah would not be a shocking event.
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greenfrog - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 08:23 PM EDT (#416470) #
Middle-of-the-order Tapia with the bases loaded against Boston seems less than ideal.
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Chuck - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 08:26 PM EDT (#416471) #
He (Tapia) doesn't get himself out easily.

He gets out 72% of the time, worst on the team except for Zimmer. Yes, his K rate is relatively low, but he makes up for that getting out in numerous other ways.

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SK in NJ - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 08:42 PM EDT (#416472) #
The Jays deserve what they get when it comes to Tapia. He’s a -0.7 WAR player and is still about replacement level since he “turned the corner” offensively in May. If they think that’s worthy of 550 PA and hitting 6th in the lineup, then they deserve the consequences of that. He’s not the biggest problem on the team but is by far the easiest problem to fix. They just choose not to.
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 08:43 PM EDT (#416473) #
Thanks for the free out.
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Polite Nate - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 08:44 PM EDT (#416474) #
The vaunted Alex Cora elects to bunt the runners over for number 9 hitter Jackie Bradley Jr.
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 08:45 PM EDT (#416475) #
God bless the sacrifice bunt.
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 09:14 PM EDT (#416476) #
Hey I guess Biggio gets to lead off the 7th.
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Chuck - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 09:21 PM EDT (#416477) #
Reckon Refsynder has ever before inspired a mound visit to discuss strategy? Probably first time in his career.
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 09:21 PM EDT (#416478) #
Romano for the 8th?
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 09:25 PM EDT (#416479) #
Leadoff walk!
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Magpie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 09:51 PM EDT (#416480) #
He Feeds On Our Scorn
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SK in NJ - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#416481) #
Our hate makes Tapia stronger.
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#416482) #
Ha the look on his face when that dropped in
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budgell - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#416483) #
Hilarious how long it took Tapia to get out of the box on that one, even by his standards...and still made it to second.
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Nigel - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 09:55 PM EDT (#416484) #
That play summarizes the Tapia experience. He made contact on a toughish pitch- good. He stands at the plate and doesn’t move after contact and then jogs to first, only running hard after the ball drops. He’s out at 2nd with a good throw - terrible. What can you say. He’s sort of the anti-Espinal.
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Mike Green - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:02 PM EDT (#416485) #
And Espinal gives them a fine disciplined PA after that. 
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:13 PM EDT (#416486) #
Robot Umps are officially a go for 2024.
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Chuck - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:20 PM EDT (#416487) #
Questionable managing by Cora. He wastes Story as a pinch-runner when he could have held him back to bat for Sanchez or Bradley. Looking for a SF, he pinch-hits with Dalbec, a highly probable K candidate (even before the gifted call from the umpire - "might have been off the plate", Pat Tabler).
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greenfrog - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:20 PM EDT (#416488) #
Leadoff walk. Outstanding. Now finish this thing off.
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Chuck - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:27 PM EDT (#416489) #
Time to pinch-run Moreno for Kirk.
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greenfrog - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:37 PM EDT (#416490) #
Meltdown underway.
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Hodgie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:39 PM EDT (#416491) #
Is there anything in sport more painful and deflating than a bad bullpen?
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Nigel - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:41 PM EDT (#416492) #
Hard to argue that bullpen isn’t the biggest need for this team. Now and in the playoffs.
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:43 PM EDT (#416493) #
That's some nice footwork from Biggio.
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greenfrog - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:45 PM EDT (#416494) #
Bit surprising they chose to pitch to Verdugo with a base open and two out.
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:46 PM EDT (#416495) #
I don't think his teammates even like Verdugo.
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Chuck - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:47 PM EDT (#416496) #
I guess the need to pinch-run for Kirk is now moot.
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:48 PM EDT (#416497) #
Our manager is strange.
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Magpie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:49 PM EDT (#416498) #
Bit surprising they chose to pitch to Verdugo with a base open and two out.

Probably makes more sense to have Mayza pitch to Verdugo than Story.
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:50 PM EDT (#416499) #
It's infuriating that our talling heads are talling about pinch hitting for biggio instead of Tapia.
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:51 PM EDT (#416500) #
Talking.
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Four Seamer - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:52 PM EDT (#416501) #
Hernandez wasn’t kidding about taking the night off. Nice AB.
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Magpie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:53 PM EDT (#416502) #
Maybe they were watching tonight's game?
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greenfrog - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 10:58 PM EDT (#416503) #
Can’t ask for more than this after the bullpen implosion. A chance.
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uglyone - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 11:00 PM EDT (#416504) #
OK let's go.
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greenfrog - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 11:09 PM EDT (#416505) #
Before the popup, Springer fouled off a 95 FB that was close to centre-cut. I’m sure he would love to have that one back.
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Chuck - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 11:10 PM EDT (#416506) #
Hard to argue that bullpen isn't the biggest need for this team.

The circle of trust is definitely getting prohibitively small. Not quite like 20 years ago with Jeff Tam, Tanyon Sturtze, Terry Adams, Kerry Ligtenberg, et al, but getting there. Sorry, I should have given a trigger warning before dropping those names.

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Hodgie - Wednesday, June 29 2022 @ 11:15 PM EDT (#416507) #
Is it just blind stubborness that Mayza continues to throw the fastball almost exclusively? One would think someone on the staff may have suggested a different approach by now given the lack of success in 94 center-cut.
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Glevin - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 08:43 AM EDT (#416511) #
One thing that worries me is that the Jays will go cheap on reinforcements like getting Benditendi and a middle reliever. I'm pretty skeptical that Benitendi is any better than Gurriel and if he is, it's marginal. The Jays should be going big after some parts that will help them over the next few years. Go after after Reynolds and Bednar. Trade Moreno, trade Orelvis get some huge pieces for the next few years. You don't want to lose because you had to use Sergio Romo in a tight spot or because you need to play Tapia ever day.
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Mike Green - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 09:01 AM EDT (#416512) #
The relievers who have been average or better over the season:  Thornton, Romano, Phelps, (Stripling), Cimber, Gage, Garcia.    The relievers who have been bad: Mayza, Merryweather and especially Richards.  The starters who have been average or better:  Manoah, Gausman, (Stripling).  The starters who have been bad: Ryu, Berrios and Kikuchi. Berrios and Kikuchi have been worse than any reliever on the roster. 

The #1 need is a starter.  Fulfilling that need is easier said than done.


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uglyone - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 09:50 AM EDT (#416513) #
Biggest BP worry for me is that Mayza seems to be breaking.

For me Romano-Mayza-Cimber-Garcia-Phelps is a strong front 5 in the bullpen and for the most part they've been solid aside from Mayza lately.

The depth bullpen arms have been putrid unfortunately - Richards the worst culprit, though I'm sure he'll bounce back. But also stripling moving to the rotation has been killer too.

The other fill in arms have been the expected mishmash.

The biggest problem for me is that the SP don't go or aren't allowed to go deeper on a consistent basis and we're simply using the pen too much.
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uglyone - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 09:56 AM EDT (#416514) #
"I'm pretty skeptical that Benitendi is any better than Gurriel and if he is, it's marginal."

Yeah he's pretty much a lefty Gurriel. Lateral move but with some fit points.
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Mike Green - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 09:57 AM EDT (#416515) #
When the starter is getting tattooed to an expected slug of .600 or so (which has been routine for Kikuchi and Berrios, and Ryu before his injury) the first 2 times through the order, you don't want to send them out there to see if things will get worse than that.  I have no problem with the pitch/pull decisions from Montoyo/Walker.  They're letting Manoah, Gausman and Stripling go longer now. 
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Mike Green - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 10:07 AM EDT (#416516) #
Benintendi isn't that much better than Gurriel, but he's a lot better than Tapia.  Obviously the better thing would be if the club used Biggio in the corner outfield slots a couple of times a week and liberated Tapia's roster spot for another use.  My scorn is strong.

It looked to me like Tapia was admiring his looper last night- "I don't know how I mind contact with that piece of nastiness...oh yeah, running...I've got to do that".
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uglyone - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 10:15 AM EDT (#416517) #
Looks like benintendi hasn't played CF since 2019....so we would still "need" Tapia because they think he can play CF.
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uglyone - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 10:18 AM EDT (#416518) #
"They're letting Manoah, Gausman and Stripling go longer now."

Yeah now that they've already overworked the pen they're finally letting their SP throw 100 pitches. Not sure they can get that genie back in the bottle tho.
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hypobole - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 10:53 AM EDT (#416519) #
Both pen and starter IP's are middle of the pack.
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lexomatic - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#416520) #
<br>"They're letting Manoah, Gausman and Stripling go longer now."

Yeah now that they've already overworked the pen they're finally letting their SP throw 100 pitches. Not sure they can get that genie back in the bottle tho.


Yeah I agree. I was a bit premature when I expressed concern, but the pen has been overworked and blown again. 2 years in a row. Last year was catastrophic injury, but I'm not sure who is more to blame for this season - front office or field management, or both.
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uglyone - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 11:22 AM EDT (#416521) #
Don't let an inability to pitch innings mislead you - the Jays lead the AL in relief appearances per game, and there's only 1 or 2 NL teams with a higher number.
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ISLAND BOY - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 12:01 PM EDT (#416522) #
It could be that the starters were on a shorter lease in the early going because of the abbreviated spring training camp. That said, I hate to see a pitcher who is cruising along with his pitch count in the 80's yanked by the manager because " third time through the batting order", " we want the reliever to start a clean inning", etc., etc.

There are extenuating circumstances like it being a hot night, some tough at bats, or a minor injury that fans might not be aware of, etc. On the whole though, I wish the manager, or whomever is making the decision, would trust their gut and think," Is the guy I'm bringing in going to pitch better than my current starter is now?
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Nigel - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 12:09 PM EDT (#416523) #
Silly stat for the day - Kirk now has a higher career wRC+ than Vladdy.

Last night was the last straw for me with Tapia but he is far from the team's biggest issue. Plus, as others have said, the Jays have an internal solution to the Tapia problem - just play Biggio more in the corner OF positions.
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hypobole - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 12:28 PM EDT (#416525) #
I did think the FO would sign another higher leverage FA reliever. They knew the plan was not to push the starters early in the year because of the short spring training. If they thought they had depth in AA, it's pretty obvious they were overly optimistic.
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Nigel - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 12:36 PM EDT (#416526) #
Ask yourself, who would you reasonably expect to be a useful high leverage reliever going forward for this team? Going into this year I would have said Romano, Cimber and Mayza with Phelps, Garcia and Richards as useful medium leverage arms. Other than having doubts about Mayza's ability to stay healthy and productive, I'm not sure I would change my mind about any of that today. I think they are short at least one more high leverage reliever.
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Nigel - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 12:40 PM EDT (#416527) #
The other thing that I would say is - just how much payroll and assets can the Jays really allocate to SP? If, between injury and underperformance, $55-60m of your payroll (Ryu, Berrios and Kikuchi) are giving you negative WAR you're probably not going to be a great team this year, no matter how many bandaids you try to put on the SP bleeding.
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uglyone - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 12:40 PM EDT (#416528) #
Yeah I agree with that Nigel.

And of course I would have said Stripling was a key long reliever too.

Agreed that adding another top reliever would always be good, which would free up Cimber to be used in a variety of ways.

Though of course I always say the best way to strengthen a bullpen is to strengthen the rotation. A stripling or Kikuchi as a long man would bolster the pen in a big way.
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Magpie - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 01:22 PM EDT (#416530) #
Last night was the last straw for me with Tapia

Checks... second inning single moves runner into scoring position from where he score game's first run... eighth inning double to tie the game 3-3... hey, that's just life as the Designated Scapegoat, pal. You think it's a tough crowd? Feed on it.

I'm not too worried about Mayza (yet1). He's having a lousy week, but he had a lousy week last season and still had a very strong season. It looks like everything he throws is running away (to Mayza's glove side) from where it's supposed to go. It ends up over the heart of the plate to LH batters, and simply misses to RH batters and puts him behind. I expect he'll find the fix shortly.
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92-93 - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#416531) #
It's hard for me to trust a guy acquired for Joe Panik, regardless of how amazing he has been in a Jays uniform.
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Nigel - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#416532) #
Magpie - as I said during the game, his 8th inning hit was just so Tapia. He should have been DOA at 2nd with his horrendous base running. Sure, he'll hit better than he has to date in his Jays tenure. June shows that. But literally everything else he does undermines that limited hitting ability so that even if he's able to hit at a wRC+ of say 85 or 90 he's likely still a replacement level player. I'm not scapegoating him at all - I've just witnessed enough of the Tapia experience to understand that the package as a whole doesn't amount to much. It still isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of the team's current issues though.
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Hodgie - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#416533) #
Just to add to my bullpen anxiety, Cimber also seems to be playing with fire, somehow mostly succeeding this season with nothing more than smoke and mirrors. Missing fewer bats and generating significantly fewer groundballs seems like a recipe for disaster with his stuff.
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uglyone - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 02:00 PM EDT (#416534) #
Designated Scapegoat also happens to be the clear worst player on the team tho.
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dalimon5 - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#416535) #
Aside from Batter's Box, Tapia actually has not been the point of criticism of any media, blogs or online writing from what I've seen. Seems to build down to less than 10 people on this site that keep returning to him.

He also seems quite popular with the rest of the team.
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lexomatic - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#416536) #
It could be that the starters were on a shorter lease in the early going because of the abbreviated spring training camp. That said, I hate to see a pitcher who is cruising along with his pitch count in the 80's yanked by the manager because " third time through the batting order", " we want the reliever to start a clean inning", etc., etc.

There are extenuating circumstances like it being a hot night, some tough at bats, or a minor injury that fans might not be aware of, etc. On the whole though, I wish the manager, or whomever is making the decision, would trust their gut and think," Is the guy I'm bringing in going to pitch better than my current starter is now?
I think this sums it up pretty well. If anyone has access to or can read the fancy diagrams wants to look at how the scuffling pitchers (BerrioséKikuchi) are doing compared to career numbers or last year or something it would be usefful.
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Mike Green - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#416537) #
Just to add to my bullpen anxiety, Cimber also seems to be playing with fire, somehow mostly succeeding this season with nothing more than smoke and mirrors. Missing fewer bats and generating significantly fewer groundballs seems like a recipe for disaster with his stuff.

Seems OK to me.  His contact % is at this career norms.  He's giving up more flyballs, but fewer pulled and relatively few hard-hit, and his walk rate is down.  His ERA is higher than it might be, due to some hit bunching. 

Relievers like Cimber used to be common in baseball and could be effective for years.  They've mostly gone out of style while hard-throwers have flourished, but there's been a minor resurgence recently (roughly coincident with the hipster preference for vinyl- coincidence?)
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Magpie - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#416539) #
the Tapia experience

It's just wildly funny when he catches grief after a night when his contributions actually helped the team.
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Magpie - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#416540) #
Of the quality relievers, the guy I worry about is Phelps. I mentioned this a couple of weeks back - it's the combination of his shaky history for being healthy, and the workload he's had to carry. This may not end well.

I think Romano and Cimber are okay, Mayza's just having a bad week, Garcia's been a little better than expected. It would be nice to have him back. It would be nice if Gage is for real. It would be nice if Romo's June was just One of Those Things. It would be nice if Richards could find that lucky horseshoe he seems to have misplaced.
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John Northey - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 03:36 PM EDT (#416541) #
The main reason Tapia isn't popular here is he has the worst WAR on the team I suspect - FanGraphs -0.6 (next is Zimmer at -0.3 among hitters, he is tied for worst now with Richards who is also -0.6, then Kikuchi at -0.5). BR has it as Tapia -0.8, tied with Richards, then Berrios at -0.7, and Kikuchi at -0.5.

Until the past month Tapia wasn't doing anything right. His defense is a known liability, and his batting line through the end of May was a pathetic 241/276/292 - I'd barely consider that acceptable for a gold glove shortstop, let along a poor fielding OF. But in June he has drastically improved - 296/306/507 - acceptable with his poor defense and regular brain cramps (like his getting out of the box slowly last night then turning on the jets once he saw the OF didn't catch the ball). Can he keep hitting like that? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. I sure hope I'm wrong and he does keep that up though. But before that hot streak he was a pure negative force on this team on offense and defense, but playing nearly every game. He has played in 64 of 75 games after all. I suspect if Zimmer could hit hard enough to kill a fly he might have taken over instead (with his great defense) but his 22 OPS+ won't compensate even if he was Willie Mays or Devon Whyte out there, and he isn't _that_ good on defense.

Now, who else to complain about? For the lineup - no one, Biggio recovered from that nightmare start, Zimmer is the last man on the bench, Moreno is a rookie so a 94 OPS+ is fine. Chapman has recovered to a 103 OPS+ now to go with generally great defense, Bo has been a disappointment this year but still a SS with a 103 OPS+ is nice. Outside of guys at 1B/LF/RF/DH I consider a 100 OPS+ fine. Those 4 positions I want more (110+ from LF/RF, 120+ 1B/DH) and the Jays are getting that mostly - Teoscar is only at 106, Gurriel 113, Vlad 141, Kirk 164. So on offense who else is playing regularly but not hitting? No one. Espinal has slumped badly but had a great start thus hiding how bad his May/June have been (270/319/378) but event that isn't bad especially for a great fielder like he is.

Pitching wise the hate is strong towards Kikuchi right now, but the pen is certainly earning some rage too. I seriously doubt Romo is the answer, nor can we count on Pearson to come back and be that flamethrower we all want to see. Deals are needed, but the rotation is too fixed in stone due to contracts to see that shifting. We have a few locked in - Romano/Mayza/Garcia/Cimber are locks, Phelps is fairly safe (ideally used when a starter is knocked out to finish an inning), Gage is working hard to lock himself in. Castillo did well his last time and needs a few more innings, Thornton is a crapshoot - nice as your 7th or 8th guy but never should be in high pressure games. Merryweather is injured again, and Richards makes me nervous everytime he takes the mound (IL for now). Romo is a guy they grabbed after others released him. So up to 4 open slots (now manned by Phelps/Gage/Castillo/Thornton) - need a flamethrower ideally for one, then to not need the rest so bloody often.
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Jonny German - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 03:48 PM EDT (#416542) #
Ethan Diamandas has a feature on Biggio at Yahoo sports with this interesting quote:

Before the year is over, Biggio might even play centre field, according to Montoyo.

Schneider has no doubts Biggio would handle that challenge well, too.

“I think guys that play infield that go to the outfield, they always say centre is the easiest, rather than corners,” he said. “So if we need [Biggio] out there, he's more than willing and able to do it.”

Montoyo and Schneider are probably just blowing smoke, but man how great would it be if Biggio could play a passable centre field?
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Mike Green - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#416543) #
It's just wildly funny when he catches grief after a night when his contributions actually helped the team.

Yep.  He hit two loopers that fell in and failed on one of those small things that Gausman was talking about.  Ahh, but we're getting to the clutch and my scorn is fading...
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Mike Green - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#416544) #
Biggio played 23 innings in centerfield in 2020.  As I recall, he did cross the Tapia Depression out there. 
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Magpie - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#416545) #
Now, now. Loopers that fall in make up for the line drives that get caught.

The team did win all three of Biggio's CF games back in 2020. They played awful defense in one of them, but I couldn't find any blame thrown at Biggio.
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Nigel - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#416546) #
That's the thing - he did help the team last night but he still couldn't stop himself from firing off six shooters at his own feet:)
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Mike Green - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#416547) #
Loopers and line drives? Tapia's BABIP luck has been entirely average. Danny Jansen's not so much and never was. Repent thy sins!
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Magpie - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#416549) #
Tapia's BABIP luck has been entirely average.

Relative to the league - it's low for him, but I think this might be the new normal, that he's become a different hitter. But anyway, the loopers that fall in really do make up for the line drives that are caught. (Though he actually hits more line drives than you might expect.)
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Mike Green - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#416552) #
It's low for Tapia likely because he played the rest of his career in Colorado.

Let's check. Career home BABIP.356; 2022 home BABIP .322. Career road BABIP.303; 2022 road BABIP .293.

The career numbers include 2022. So it's mostly the move out of Colorado, and perhaps a bit related to overall decline in BABIP or bad luck/different ground/air ratio.
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Magpie - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 05:47 PM EDT (#416553) #
No one will remember, but back when the trade happened, I pointed to Tapia's numbers away from Coors (.243/.285/.320) and described him as Grichuk without the power, while wondering why a guy that fast always ended up in LF. So he's actually been better than I expected.

And I'm just plain contrary. What can I say.
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hypobole - Thursday, June 30 2022 @ 06:00 PM EDT (#416554) #
Know it's not in Charlie's DNA, but if Tampa opens with a RH reliever and then brings in the bulk lefty, I'd lead off with Biggio and move everyone down one spot.
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scottt - Friday, July 01 2022 @ 07:52 AM EDT (#416571) #
OCD is a compulsion to do something. I had a coworker who would wash his hands for 5 minutes.
Not doing what you're asked to is something completely different.
It's like the people who don't wash their hands in the washrooms. Nothing obsessive about that.
The local hospital had 2-5% of physicians not washing their hands, which I found aberrant.
People choose to be jerks.

Avoiding things falls under phobia. You can have phobia of needles but you can't have phobia of vaccines.
Vaccines is not something you can perceive, it's a concept.

With the antivaxxers it's either not understanding how things work or being disinformed, perhaps for political reasons.
Dennis Leary explains it pretty well with his A-hole song.

I spent the last day in the emergency with people eating food they'd stashed out of their pockets in front of no eating or drinking signs. That and folks constantly removing their masks or wearing them below their noses.
Idiots works very well for me. 

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hypobole - Friday, July 01 2022 @ 09:27 AM EDT (#416578) #
scottt, you're the 2nd person who misinterpreted my post. I did not say Kyrie or other anti-vaxxers had OCD. That is a diagnosis. I said some had some sort of mental health issue that causes them to rabbit-hole. They have a propensity for believing conspiracy theories not just about vaccinations, but things like Kyrie and his flat-earthing. The diagnosis for that I'll leave to the experts.

And yes, some are pure idiots. They just don't care.
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