Mentioned teams than can fix pitchers in the other thread. SF seems to be one of those teams. What Canadian-born Zaidi has pulled off in SF is rather masterful. A team that outsiders knew should rebuild didn't and seems to have succeeded, even if it may only be for a short time until those crazy good vet hitters either reach FA or go back to showing their age.

I'd much much prefer that over the stupid strike box every broadcast now superimposes over home plate.

I am guessing you are among a small minority on this front. I enjoy the box. I trust the box about a jillion times more than I do the announcers and the umpires. I spent most of my viewing life with no box and found that the box revealed what I suspected all along: the umpires are wrong a lot.

Speaking of the box, I find it humorous when Buck casually says a pitch caught the corner, or missed the plate or... whatever, when the box clearly says otherwise. I find it humorous when Tabler says the umpires are squeezing the pitchers when pitches not in the box are actually called balls. I find it humourous when Buck clearly cannot be bothered paying attention, sometimes asserting that a ball was outside when it clearly was down the middle, just low. I find it humourous when a developing play is not quite clear, but Buck nonetheless jumps in with an incredible confidence about what has just happened: Zunino dropped the ball on the plate at home in his haste to turn a doubleplay (truth: the throw to Zunino was in the dirt and he couldn't pick it cleanly); the baserunner slid into Jose Abreu, no the man on deck collided with Jose Abreu (truth: the umpire threw a bat into Jose Abreu).

All these things that I claim to find humourous, I don't. I find them sad and pathetic and a hindrance to enjoying the broadcasts. The only thing that could make them worse would be to add Brian Kenny.

Thanks for this Eephus. Enjoyable Monday read to accompany coffee. I do like the box.

Let the game breathe, dude.

Nice to hear a young 'un talking like this. Pappy taught you well.

Love Da Box, but can't stand the box. It doesn't appear to be an accurate representation of the strike zone, unless it is actually being adjusted for each and every hitter. In Ray's start last week there were a few balls that were clearly outside to lefty hitters according to the TV strike zone, but they appeared to catch the corner as they crossed the plate from Ray's left-handed delivery. We used to get great overhead views of pitches as they crossed, and really that's the only way to tell if a pitch is in/out or not. The box also shows the true strike zone at around the batter's letters, but umpires tend not to have strike zones that expand above a player's belt.

Thanks Eephus for this Monday gift. I will add stick stuff as a factor. A Chapman seems to be bad lately.

unless it is actually being adjusted for each and every hitter

That's a fair dispute with regards to top and bottom of the strike zone. Surely the left and right edges are identical for all hitters since those edges are meant to coincide with the edges of the plate. I had raised it earlier as highly implausible (but not something I could prove) that a pitch could miss the front of the strike zone but cross the plate thereafter. I believe that it sometimes appears plausible because of an illusion. The catcher catches the ball in the middle of the plate, though of course he is a good piece behind it. Truthfully, if a pitch were thrown that could bypass the front of the plate and yet cross the plate, the catcher would have to receive it far to one side because of the pronounced angle at which it crosses the plate.

But I could be wrong.

As for Chatwood, there is little worse than a guy who gets hot early in the season and stinks thereafter. Managers keep trotting them out, because it may come back at any time.. Solarte seemed to get a gajillion chances after his April magic wore off. If a player plans to stink, do it early and often, like Reese last year. That's the way to do it, Reese.

I like the strike zone box, too, and really miss it if it's not on a broadcast. If nothing else you can see the consistency of an umpire with it as a pitch slightly outside the zone may be called a ball and then, a few pitches later, a pitch in the exact same spot will be called a strike.

Chatwood is lucky there's been a lot of injuries or he'd be DFA'd by now. Nothing drives me crazier than a reliever who comes in and gives up walks.

Adam Cimber is the only player to wear #90 for all of the four teams that have employed him (Cleveland, San Diego, and Miami preceding the Jays.) Only two other guys anywhere have worn the number - Thairo Estrada and Estevan Florial, who both spent about five minutes with the Yankees last year.

I can't help but wonder if Cimber became an especially appealing target with the game about to crack down on the sticky stuff. He's quite obviously someone who's not interested in spinning the baseball. Is Ross Atkins really that clever?

Gerrit Cole has been less than superhuman his last couple of starts. Does that have anything to do with the sticky stuff?

I think I'm somewhat indifferent about the strike zone box. I don't think I trust it all that much - but I would second Island Boy's point that it does help you see how consistent an umpire is being in applying his own personal interpretation of the strike zone. Most important (to me, anyway!) - I don't find it intrusive.

Former Jays prospect Harold Ramirez got a mention on Fangraphs Waiver Wire Report yesterday:

"Harold Ramirez: While he’s been playing every day, he’s just not differentiating himself with his bland profile (.275 AVG, 6 HR, 2 SB). Bench outfielder."

His loss doesn't sting much.

Nice to hear a young 'un talking like this. Pappy taught you well.

I'd like to take all the credit for it, but I don't think I can, to be honest. As I recollect, he spent most of his childhood far more interested in video games than sports.

Of course, by now he's played far, far more real baseball than I did in my entire life. And played it quite a bit better, too.

Still, what does he know about the 1912 World Series?

I like the box.
I wouldn't mind to be told that the "strike" missed the plate by 6 inches and 3 quarter.

The ump does not have the depth perception to differentiate between the front and the middle of the plate. A ball cannot catch the back of the plate because there isn't one, it's a pentagon.
 
The ump is behind the catcher. The ump can't see through the catcher or through his glove.  The catcher swipes towards the middle of the plate so that the ump has no idea where the pitch actually was.

We used to do something like that in taekwondo, Olympic rules. You score a point with a kick over the belt but punches have to be between the belt and the shoulders and they don't score anything. If you punch-kick-punch fast enough, the referee cannot tell if it was a punch or a kick that landed on the chin.

What I hate is the automatic strike on a 3-0 count and the automatic ball on a 0-2 count.
The first one is the ump giving a free one to the pitcher but then the hitter has no idea what is ball and what is a strike.
The second one is the pitcher trying to get the hitter to chase, but it's mostly a waste of time because the ump will give the hitter a free one there too.

"I don't know how you can take a pitch so close."

That wasn't Scherzer who dropped his pants.
That was Sergio Romo.

Bergen and Beasley cleared waivers and have been assigned to AAA.

Draft coming up soon. MLB.com has Jays very strongly ("almost locked") tied in to lefty high school pitcher Anthony Solometo. I don't like taking high school pitchers in the first few rounds as they have extremely high failure rate but I guess at pick 19, it's a big risk no matter what.

Returning to the catching conversation, I'm largely with John Northey & Magpie that Kirk should be getting a lot of catching reps in AAA for the next while to work on his defence. If we're in contention come August, however, there's a point where it becomes foolish to keep him in AAA given his bat. You'd rather him as DH than most other options. It's utter drivel to say that there's no way the Jays should carry three catchers - even if you see Kirk as a catcher rather than DH/PH. How often have we used the last man in the bullpen this past month? Those guys haven't even gotten into blowouts sometimes.

As I may have said before, McGuire as a defence-first left-handed hitter is the guy best-suited to be the backup to whoever ends up on top among Adams, Jansen, Kirk and Moreno; I'd be willing to trade him, but I don't think the market is going to value him appropriately. The most obvious surplus guy is Adams: he's not likely to be better offensively than Moreno or Kirk, and it's hard to see him displacing Jansen/McGuire defensively. There's a good argument not to move Jansen during the season, but I'd like to find a way to get Moreno into the starting role next season, so I think it'll make sense to trade Jansen this offseason.

Long-term, I like the idea of Moreno/Kirk/McGuire. Kirk can be a modern-day Mike Napoli, DHing and catching once or twice a week - even if he doesn't establish himself as a strong enough defender to be a starting catcher. That's valuable, and I'd hate to trade him when he hasn't really had a chance to either establish himself as a major-league hitter or show he's got the defensive tools to stay at catcher.

My impression of Kirk's scouting reports have been that he's not regarded as a long-shot to stay at catcher. As others have noted, he just hasn't had the game time the last two years to develop defensively, and he remains very young.

Good article Eephus.

Regarding Semien, when Bo gets a day off, Semien looks so good at short, dare I say it, better than Bo. I am not advocating a move of any kind but I recall when Semien joined the league he was bad at short and there were many calls for him to be moved off the position. But the A's stuck with him and he got better, just like Bo will.

Thanks Chuck for the Buck Martinez discussion. I too have noticed it and I note how confident Buck sounds in his call despite the camera showing something different. Broadcasters hardly ever admit mistakes, they just keep on keeping on.

Hey, Eephus, enjoyable read. I've never written an article on Pink Floyd, although I did almost wear out my Meddle album in the early 70's. And I'm no Dewey.

By "relief core", did you mean "relief corps"? Or is it a play on words I'm missing? Although "relief corpse" would probably have been more suitable if it was a play on words, I'm guessing.

I did almost wear out my Meddle album in the early 70's.

As a fellow oldie and connoisseur, this may not come as new information to you. Here is the last time that David Gilmour ever performed Echoes which he got to do with Rick Wright shortly before he passed away. I believe this is true. I think he said he would never perform it with anyone else.

"Here is the last time that David Gilmour ever performed Echoes."

Thanks Chuck, listening to it right now. Sadly, I'm more oldie than connoisseur, although I do have a Pink Floyd connoisseur bit for you or anyone else interested.

Magpie, Mike Green and I had a brief discussion about Django Reinhardt the other day. It was 1934 when Django and jazz violinist Stephane Grappelli formed the iconic Quintette du Hot Club de France.

Here is Pink Floyd with Grappelli playing Wish You Were Here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p98UZxdlKRM

The Jays have the second smallest draft pool.
College pitchers are more risky this year because they didn't play last year, so there is not enough data on them.
Taking a lefty seems like a sensible move when you figure all of that out.

They're most likely going to pick later next year, but they might be able to get an extra draft pick or two.
I'd QO Semien, Ray and Matz.

Here is Pink Floyd with Grappelli playing Wish You Were Here.

Thanks. The very existence of this somehow eluded me.

“dare I say it, better than Bo”

Gerry, you’re kidding, right? Since when has Bo been elevated to a SS with strong defensive chops? I’d rank him next to last out of the last 5 or 10 short stops who have played the position, defensively.

Bo Bichette
Goins
Tulowitzki
Reyes
Izturis
Yunel Escobar
John McDonald
Omar Vizquel

All I said was Semien was better than Bo. I wasn't referencing any historical shortstops. I said "dare to say" because I thought there might be some Bo defenders on here.

The Jays have a lot of quality infield prospects (to name a few, Martin, Groshans, Orelvis, Smith, Lopez, Taylor, Jimenez, Beltre, Machado, De Castro). It will be interesting to see what the Jays infield looks like in, say, 2024 and 2025. Infielders and catchers — the strength of the Jays farm system. I expect at least one or two to be traded this month.

A notable Bo defender would be Marcus Semien, who says Bo reminds him of himself as a young shortstop. By which, he meant (among other things) that Bichette makes the same kind of mistakes - attempts plays he can't make, rushes when he doesn't need to. (In his first full season at short, Semien was making even more errors than Bichette and his range wasn't anything to write home about either.)

I've never written an article on Pink Floyd

He's been promising to do one on Radiohead for... seems like forever.

No pressure...

Bo is impressive in that over the years he resisted efforts to change his highly unorthodox swing, and he made it to the majors as a starting shortstop despite all the evaluators who said he would have to move off the position. And here he is, playing SS and on pace for a 5 WAR season at age 23. I wouldn’t be surprised if he turns himself into a solid defensive shortstop over the next few seasons.

Bergen and Beasley cleared waivers and have been assigned to AAA.

Did Bergen decline his option to declare free agency?

Wouldn't this be the second time he was DFAed as he would have been removed from the 40-man by the Giants when they returned him via the Rule 5?

I asked the same thing when Dany Jimenez was returned for the 2nd time, but apparently Rule 5 returnees don't work that way for some reason I can't remember.

Interesting article by McGrath on athletic today. The Jays hitters are only slashing .218/.277/.347 in late and close games, (defined as plate appearances in the seventh inning or later with the batting team tied, ahead by one, or the tying run at least on deck) The only two teams that are worse in those situations, per OPS, are the Tigers and Pirates.

Bullpen is kinda the reverse where overall since mid May numbers are middling overall but bottom five by LoB%. They can put together some scoreless innings but blow it in close games. Overall I just see a team that seemingly gets right everywhere when the game is close. Hitting craters, bullpen leaks, etc. Maybe it’s a youth thing, maybe it’s a manager thing or maybe just bad luck but it’s really annoying how the Jays just don’t perform when in those spots.

They seem to return to their former team without being outrighted.

It's usually a close game because the other team's pitching has been good.
Also, obviously you see better pitchers in close games.

Seems unfair to blame Vladdy if he has 2 walks and a double and a double play ball with 2 runners in scoring position.
They don't play small ball. I only trust Semien, Bichette and Biggio at stealing a base.
Only 4 players with OPS below .800 over the last 7 games.
Biggio .634
Grichuk .600
Hernandez .528
McGuire .250
Just platoon the catchers.

Boston keeps winning, but you can't worry about that.
We'll play them later.
Now they need to beat on Baltimore again.

Thanks, Eephus, that was really enjoyable.

I would hate for them to get rid of the box, but I preferred when it was a graphic away from the actual plate. Now it is obtrusive, but better than no clear indication at all.

They should make it a 3D strike zone, obviously. Tech is just the same.

Interesting when you think of it there's no real reason the strike zone should be a square shake at all, if the idea of it is the "hittable pitches" zone. It should be circular/spherical.

It should look more like the circle here, not the square:

FG with an update mock for this weekends draft:

19. Toronto Blue Jays
Pick: Jay Allen, CF, John Carroll Catholic HS (FL)

Sources told us Allen was in for a private workout and he starts getting mentioned consistently in this range of the first round.

They should make it a 3D strike zone, obviously.

I have voiced my thoughts on this a couple of times, to minimal engagement, but I do not believe it is obvious that a 3D strike zone is required. A two-dimensional rectangle at the front of the plate should suffice, unless it is truly possible for a pitch to miss this plane and yet cross a portion of the plate that lies behind it. I would like to see evidence that this is possible because I have serious doubts.

As I read the latest piece from Sheryl Ring, remembering how naive and ignorant I was for judging Bauer on his actions when anyone else could also be just as bad. Would be a competitive disadvantage not to want him I was told, and besides, he was just uninformed, mercurial and argumentative. Fun times.

I would have thought that a 12 to 6 curveball thrown over the middle of the plate which was just above the strike zone at the front of the plate would fall into the strike zone.

This may well be theoretically possible, but right now, high likely would that be to be called a strike? Could an umpire even discern the ball travelling through the 3D "back" portion of the strike zone? I believe he would see the ball at its apex and disqualify it as a potential strike based on that alone.

A strike zone that looks like a sphere makes it harder for a hitter to track a strike.
Is that desirable? Are we looking for more strikeouts and fewer balls in play?

It seems to me that the hitters are usually pretty good at judging the strike zone.
It's the umps who are struggling. Maybe they should be standing in the opposite batter's box instead?

I don't know, Chuck.  My instinct is that many but not all of those pitches are called strikes; umpires can interpolate between the height of the ball at the front of the plate and where the catcher catches it (particularly if the catcher does not move his glove at all).

Jay Allen's profile reminds me a lot of Grichuk.

I'd be pretty disappointed if they targeted a right handed guy who projects as a right fielder.
Not enough speed to stick in center, but could develop some power.
Yeah, you get the "best player available" but by number 19, the lines are pretty blurry.
MLB has him at #33.

First rounders: shortstops, catcher, lefty batting outfielders, pitchers.

I'd much prefer a pitcher with plus control, particularly a lefty.

Getting a Grichuk at 19 is a pretty good outcome. He's at 11 bWAR so far. Only 2 players have been taken at 19 with 12 or more bWAR since Roger Clemens in 1983. Interestingly, both were Blue Jays picks.

I trust the Jays internal evaluations a whole lot more than MLB.com.

Bergen and Beasley assigned to AAA.

They could have had the option to become free agents but might have declined because:

1. No great demand for their services
2. No major league offer, just other AAA teams.
3. Belief that the Jays will give them another shot
4. Comfort with Buffalo/Trenton and their teammates or coaches
5. They might have signed a lease for accommodation that could be lost money if they sign elsewhere

Both of them have played in other organizations so they might prefer something with the Jays setup.

A trade!

Brewers acquiring 1B Rowdy Tellez from Blue Jays, sources tell
@TheAthletic
. Return believed to include RHP Trevor Richards. Unclear if other pieces are in deal. Tellez has been in Triple A since June 22. Richards came from Rays in Adames trade.

More to the story:

@ShiDavidi
Blue Jays also getting RHP Bowden Francis, per source


I like Richards for Tellez, who I've never really believed in.

Works for me. This is neutral on the 40 man roster and its not like Tellez was someone I believed in much. I think he has a bit more value to a team that actually needs a 1b, but we don't need one of those here.

Wish Tellez all the luck. He seems like a good guy and he has overcome a ton but the writing was on the wall when he didn't perform this year. Jays gave him 760 PAs in the majors which is plenty but Tellez just never did anything more than just look good in spurts. Jays need the relief help more. Hope he does well in Milwaukee.

Milwaukee, however, is in desperate need of a first baseman with Vogelbach on the shelf. They've been playing Keston Hiura there - he's a backup second baseman who's hitting .161/.259/.295.

I'm sure we're all rooting for Tellez to succeed. Milwaukee should be a terrific opportunity, even once Vogelbach returns.

Richards was pretty awful through the end of May, but since has had only 1 bad outing of his last 12 - didn't give up a run in the other 11.

Here was FG's take on Francis:
Francis has had statistical success through the upper minors by relying on plus command of three fringe pitches. He added a slider for this year and now has four distinct offerings, of which the slider has quickly become the best. It’s also hard, which is important because Francis’ curveball is a low-70s rainbow, averaging about 73 mph, while the slider has been up to 87 and sits a bit below that. He has a power pitcher’s style with soft stuff, but Francis feel to pitch is excellent and I think he can stick toward the back of a rotation.

yay, a reliever!

Can't argue with this move. May be a couple of other similar moves but nothing really significant at the deadline imo.

To be fairbHiura was their star hitting prospect for a while who couldnt field well enough at 2b and was moved to 1b and forgot how to hit. I'm rooting for a tellez. Hope he gets the power boost from Milwaukee. Probably best upside for available 1b, butbthis says a lot about Hiiras future I think too.

Francis is 7th rounder, 6' 5" soft tosser, according to Fangraphs.

Fastball 50,
slider 55 (up to 87mph but sits  below that),
Curve 45 (low 70s rainbow),
change 45/50.

"power pitcher's style with soft stuff, but Francis feel to pitch is excellent and I think he can stick toward the back of a rotation."

Richards started the year in the Rays bullpen.
Got tagged with earned runs in 4 of his 6 outings as a Rays, didn't face the Jays.
Only given up earned runs in 3 of his 15 outings as a Brewer.

Interesting.

NL really is a weaker conference offence wise. It is somewhat concerning a lot of his good performances are against teams like Colorado and Pittsburgh among others. But thats always going to be the case for any pitchers coming from other divisions to this one.

Well, a bit of a surprise. A deal with a first place team.

Trevor Richards: 3.4 BB/9 vs 11.7 K/9 this year, 3.7 & 9.0 lifetime. Former Ray & Marlin. 3.20 ERA this year in 19 2/3 IP was in Tampa's minors for part of the year.

Bowden Francis: hasn't reached the majors yet, 11 starts in AA/AAA this year. 3.62 ERA overall, lifetime 3.0 BB/9 vs 9.2 K/9 (2.6 9.8 this year). Has potential.

Not bad for a guy who had no where to play here in Tellez. Hate to see him go, but hope he tears the NL a new one. Funny, he will be replacing Daniel Vogelbach who the Jays had briefly last year but now is on the IL.

I’ll join the chorus wishing Rowdy well. It’ feels likely that a change of scenery will be good for him.

First impression is thumbs up on the deal, but I think the next trade needs to be more significant. Cimber / Richards / Barnes / Axford may raise the floor for the pen, but the ceiling needs some help too. Craig Kimbrel?

I don't know that we need that many similar guys.
Get a closer like Yimi Garcia and call it a day.

Richard is a 92mphs fastball/84mph change guy with the odd slider also around 84mph.
That's a bit different, I guess. 

Hrm...
558 PA 243/308/472 108 OPS+ for a DH/1B then dumped by the Jays after his age 24 season. 0.3 bWAR
760 PA 241/301/458 102 OPS+ for a DH/1B then traded by the Jays in his age 26 season. 0.5 bWAR

I think most older fans will instantly know who I'm talking about there. Cecil Fielder vs Rowdy Tellez. Two guys who never looked to be in shape but could pound a ball a mile. Fielder was younger but both in eyeshot of each other on offense. Fielder went to Japan for his age 25 season and at 26 came back to Detroit and hit 51 HR in his first year back, coming in 2nd for MVP. 2 years in a row 2nd for MVP (HR & RBI leader both years, RBI leader year 3). 6.5 WAR the first year. I'd be happy for Tellez if he can duplicate Fielders post-Jays success.

Jonny, I was looking at Kimbrel yesterday. Cubs are in free fall, but their schedule to the deadline is soft. 3 games vs the Reds are only ones against teams over .500. Kimbrel has been great, though his contract is pricey and unusual. Will definitely take some cash strapped teams out of the running since I don't see the Cubs wanting to eat much of his salary. Or maybe they will for enough return.

It makes sense to have an experience lefty instead of a guy like Tellez who really needs to play every day.

Not a kimbrel fan. Always had that dirty hat with the foreign substance on the bill.

Nice little roster cleanup move here. Tellez was not going to get a chance on this team anymore with Vlad firmly at 1B and the team smartly using the DH spot to rotate everyday players, so he was an expendable part. Richards is an interesting controllable arm out of the pen, and Francis is a filler depth piece. About what you would expect for Tellez at this point. It remains to be seen if Rowdy can be a starting 1B in this league, but it was never going to happen here, so at least he's going somewhere where he'll get a chance.

I'll be the dissenting voice here. This seems like a situational move dictated by Tellez's lack of role right now and our bullpen struggles, and I'm not particularly impressed with the return. Richards is useful, and probably a marginal upgrade on Barnes/Payamps, but more a depth piece than someone you'd want pitching in a close game. Francis simply doesn't look interesting to me.

There's no denying it's hard to see a role for Rowdy right now given the acquisition of Dickerson and the way the team likes to use the DH, but he's a guy who has seen some MLB success, and whose exit velocity and hard-hit numbers are around the 90th percentile. There's a pretty decent chance Rowdy is an above-average 1B for the next few years, and we aren't getting much more than the proverbial bag of balls in return

This is a terrific return for Tellez, who now has no options remaining after having spent 20+ days in the minors this season. He was a step away from being DFAed, so to get two pieces for him is a very solid.

One of the reasons why Tellez has any trade value left is that he is on his final minor league option. The acquiring team isn't hamstrung by keeping him on their 26-man all year to see if Tellez can turn it around.

But for the Jays, the end of Tellez' value was coming very soon. He's way down the depth chart for MLB bench spots this season. Even if he hits well in the second half in the majors or minors, he'll be 27 next spring and out of options with the added downside that you have to use up a 40-man spot on him all winter just to try to see if he can win a bench spot in ST before likely losing him for nothing like Pompey and Alford.

The Jays get a legit relief pitcher (with some years of control) for a bat-only player who hasn't shown much bat for most of his MLB career and had no place on this roster going forward. Pretty good return for a marginal player like Tellez

Also kind of hard to see a team who would have more of a need for a player like Tellez than Milwaukee. Now sure there is a couple other relievers on that team I would have liked slightly more than Richards. (obv Hader but a couple others too) Still raising the floor so we have more reliable options in the bullpen is nice, we need to have more than just 2-3 guys we can use.

I have no issues with the trade as Tellez isn't a valuable trade chip. But to call Richards a legit reliever seems a stretch to me. He's had a good month recently. He was in the minors earlier. I don't see a ton of difference between him and Barnes. That doesn't mean it isn't a worthwhile trade because, well, the bullpen this year.

Interesting to see Angel Perdomo, former Jay, in the Brewers pen.

Signed during the 2018-2019 offseason as a minor league free agent after peaking at A+ ball with the Jays.

Now 27, he's a lefty reliever with Milwaukee having walked 8.5 per 9 this year and 11.5 per 9 lifetime.

It's pretty rare to see a minor league free agent make the MLB.

I would be highly surprised if you could get anything for Grichuk. I think you could get a decent deal for Gurriel. I concur with those who feel we got an overpay for Tellez.

the crowning achievement of the 2021 Arizona Diamondbacks.

I'd forgotten that was how he hurt himself! I must have watched the play five times in utter amazement the day after it happened.

This year's D'Backs are as close as we're ever going to get to the legendary Cleveland Spiders.

Was that gold glover Nick Ahmed staring at Vogelbach like a deer in the headlights (with the announcer yelling "throw it in, throw it in")?

Rowdy even with a league average bat, has been worth all of 0.5 WAR career spanning 760 PA's. Rowdy's not good defensively and is a base clogger. He has to hit, and I hope he does. I like to see traded prospects succeed.

Everyone is talking about Richards, who does raise the BP's floor somewhat, but I'm a bit more intrigued by Francis. FG sees him as a backend starter, but I think his future is probably in the pen. Adding a few mph to his FB, the plus slider and at least average command seems a good recipe.

"I still think that there's a decent chance that his performance over the rest of the year makes the Jays look terrible (with him outhitting Grichuk and Gurriel by a wide margin)."

That still wouldn't make the Jays look terrible because Rowdy is only a DH and Springer is playing there a lot now. Grichuk is playing CF for the Jays. Gurriel plays OF. Comparing apples to pears. I don't understand the criticism because Tellez clearly had no spot on the team and the Jays gave Rowdy lots of chances and he never figured things out. If the Jays were rebuilding or in transition, sure, hold on to Tellez but contending teams can't just hold on to players for years and hope they figure things out.

I still think that there's a decent chance that his performance over the rest of the year makes the Jays look terrible (with him outhitting Grichuk and Gurriel by a wide margin).

I think there's a much better chance that Gurriel - who's also having a lousy year but has been the best hitter of the three by a pretty comfortable margin - outhits the other two the rest of the way. Reversion to the mean or established standards or whatever.

"I still think that there's a decent chance that his performance over the rest of the year makes the Jays look terrible (with him outhitting Grichuk and Gurriel by a wide margin)."

That still wouldn't make the Jays look terrible because Rowdy is only a DH and Springer is playing there a lot now. Grichuk is playing CF for the Jays. Gurriel plays OF. Comparing apples to pears.

This seems misconceived to me. Sure, there are going to be days you want Springer at DH. But if Tellez outhits Grichuk or Gurriel by a significant margin, your best lineup will include him (at least against RHP). Pivotal late September games you'll want your best lineup in place - no DH games for Bo or Springer. That goes double for the playoffs, if we get there.

If Tellez is hitting at a 120 OPS+ (what I take to be a minimum for Mike's hypothesis), you'll want him in at least 50% of your games, and he'd be a useful bench bat in the other 50%. The real question is how likely we are to see an offensive renaissance from Tellez. I, at least, agree with Mike that it's a decent possibility, and the chance it does come about is greater than the value of what I see as a pretty marginal upgrade to the bullpen.

If we really need a DH that can hit 120 OPS+ we already have one. His name is Kirk and we can call him up in September just as easily. Not quite as much power as Tellez but hugely better contact skills.

If Tellez is hitting at a 120 OPS+ (what I take to be a minimum for Mike's hypothesis)

I think there's a much better chance that you'll get that from Gurriel, who had a career OPS+ of 124 coming into this season.

This trade just seems like a win-win.  Tellez plays only 1B, and you have to offer a lot offensively to be an asset at first. 

Milwaukee has a massive hole at first.  I always find it odd when teams struggle to find a 1B, but Milwaukee is betting on short term upside, and is the perfect team to give Tellez some run. 

this trade is a likely minor win for us, with an outside chance of being a homerun for Milwaukee. 

Seems like an ideal baseball trade. 

While Justin Smoak and Rowdy Tellez have different pedigrees (1st round college pick vs. 30th round high school pick), I kind of see the potential for a Smoak-like career for Tellez. The left handed power will be intriguing enough that he gets a couple more chances and there may be a good season or two in his future.

That said, Smoak's career WAR was a mere 7, which cost his employers 30M. The power fairy only granted him one wish, his 38 HR season. And the numbers never bore out his strong defensive reputation, grossly exaggerated by Buck and Pat for years. I don't think that Tellez will be making 30M or will get as many chances as Smoak got.

I think that this trade will ultimately prove to be an exchange of fringe calibre major leaguers with no real impact to anyone. Still, it makes sense for both sides to have rolled the dice, because youneverknow.

I've been the biggest Rowdy fan in the world since he was in A ball but I'm fine with moving him. He may even have some big years going forward but he could just as easily never be above average again. And it's always hard to tell from the cheap seats but I have concerns about his work ethic.

And Dickerson is at least a good a short term bet for this year as Rowdy.

Of course what makes trading him so obvious is the impending callups of bats like Kirk, Smith, Moreno.......right?.....right?

Moreno is out for at least a month or two with a broken thumb.

for the record the fangraphs combined projections do like Rowdy's bat, though those projections are for Rowdy in a bench role which may mean they are based on him being mostly in a platoon role. (I'm not certain there - sometimes limited PA projections are just due to role / callup status, but whenever it's a lefty i think they probably project most PAs against RHP).

Combined projections:

Teoscar (314pa): 112wrc+
Kirk (78pa): 111wrc+
Rowdy (72pa): 108wrc+
Grichuk (235pa): 104wrc+
Gurriel (273pa): 103wrc+
(Moreno (1pa): 103wrc+ - Steamer Projection only)
Dickerson (135pa): 99wrc+