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Let us, however grudgingly, congratulate Tony LaRussa who has now managed his team to more wins than any man in major league history who didn't actually own the team he was managing.



I've never exactly liked the guy, or thought all that highly of the way he managed his teams. And I've always held him responsible for the plague of relief pitchers who have swarmed all over the game like so many locusts these last thirty years. But he's one of the very, very few men in history who was able to keep being successful with the same team for a period longer than the usual five year shelf life. He's won three championships, and he has a very real chance of winning a fourth this year. I think a lot of people anticipated some conflict between LaRussa's somewhat old school attitudes and the young, modern athletes on his current roster. And those opportunities have certainly arisen, but no one - neither the players nor LaRussa himself - seems particularly troubled. Tony goes "these damn kids" and the players go "that's old Tony" and they just get on with winning the next game.

So many things are easier when you're playing .610 ball.

This is a really good team, folks. There's an excellent chance that they're going to leave the rest of the division in the dust and sew up their spot in the post-season before August is even over. They've had some very tough luck with injuries, losing outfielders Eloy Jimenez and Luis Robert with long-term afflictions. The Sox will be happy if even one of them is back by September. As a result, this year's outfield has been a revolving door of mediocrities - Adam Eaton (hey, he used to be good), Billy Hamilton (now on the IL himself), Andrew Vaughn, Leury Garcia. All this is the main reason they have what is merely a good offense, rather than one of the very best in the league (as they did last year.)

They've compensated by becoming the hardest team in the league to score runs against. Dallas Keuchel - 4-1, 4.25, ERA+ 96 - has been their fifth best starter. The Jays will see him - you know, a former Cy Young winner - after they face a couple of guys with ERAs below 2.00. Their bullpen might be a little shallow, but the front end of it - Hendriks, Ruiz, Crochet, and Bummer - has been outstanding. And when your starters have gone 26-12, 3.04 you probably don't need quite as much from your bullpen.

I can't wait until we see Jays hitters taking swings against a guy named Crochet. And another guy named Bummer. The jokes, I trust, will be writing themselves.

Matchups!

Tue 8 June - Ray (3-2, 3.57) vs Rodon (5-2, 1.98)
Wed 9 June - Manoah (1-0, 3.86) vs Lynn (7-1, 1.23)
Thu 10 June - Ryu (5-3, 3.23) vs Keuchel (4-1, 4.25)

This is going to be a challenge.


Blue Jays at White Sox, June 8-10 | 168 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Mike Green - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 05:17 PM EDT (#399484) #
I like the matchups better than Magpie.  The Central divisions again are very, very weak.  The White Sox are a good club, but that's it.

With the Jays facing two lefties and then having Manoah going in the other game, this is a very winnable series, even on the road. 
Gerry - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 05:48 PM EDT (#399486) #
Jansen to the IL. Riley Adams recalled and will actually play tonight!
John Northey - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 06:00 PM EDT (#399487) #
Great to see Adams getting to play. I hate when guys are called up but never get to play. I remember a catcher being called up years ago who was up for September but never got into a game and was never called up again - forget his name now. Just seems mean spirited to me. Get the guy an inning in a blowout at least on defense so he can point to the record and say 'I made it'.
johnny was - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#399488) #
If anyone wants it, Ben Lindbergh at The Ringer wrote a piece on how Tony LaRussa and Dave Duncan came up with their tandem starter approach with the crappy '93 A's here:

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2018/8/20/17758120/1993-oakland-athletics-tony-la-russa-opener-experiment
vw_fan17 - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#399489) #
Shouldn't the teams/pitchers be reversed for the last matchup? We're visitors in all 3 games, AFAICT.
Magpie - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 06:07 PM EDT (#399490) #
Shouldn't the teams/pitchers be reversed for the last matchup?

Not always at my sharpest in the middle of the night...
cascando - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 06:09 PM EDT (#399491) #
I remember a catcher being called up years ago who was up for September but never got into a game and was never called up again

I'm guessing that might have been A.J. Jiminez. I remember having some hope for him after he put up some nice numbers in A-ball, but I don't think he ever really hit after that.
Gerry - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 06:11 PM EDT (#399492) #
It was Brian Jeroloman, we talked about it on here a few weeks ago. It turned out later that Jeroloman had a fractured wrist.
Mike Green - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 06:53 PM EDT (#399494) #
I'm excited to see Riley Adams, although seeing AdamsR in a boxscore will bring back unhappy memories.

The bar for offensive performance from the Jay catchers is not too high, and I think Adams will clear it. 
scottt - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#399495) #
I've you ever used Spider Tack while pitching?

"Um... I don't... I don't know... I don't know if uh... I don't quite know how to answer that... I mean... there are customs and practices..."

- Gerrit Cole

hypobole - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 07:13 PM EDT (#399496) #
The 3 best pitching teams in the AL per FG are White Sox, Red Sox, Yankees. Our next 3 opponents are White Sox, Red Sox, Yankees. Welcome to the bigs Riley.
92-93 - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 07:20 PM EDT (#399498) #
"Adams has a simple, quiet swing with a low leg kick and almost no pre-pitch movement, and his power thus far in AAA has utilized all fields"

"(He) has a poor defensive reputation"

- John Trupin, BP.

The Jays are scheduled to see 4 lefties in the next 8 games including tonight, so there should be ample opportunity for Adams while Jansen is on the DL.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 07:47 PM EDT (#399499) #
"seeing AdamsR in a boxscore will bring back unhappy memories"

I wouldn't get too riled up about it.
Magpie - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 08:15 PM EDT (#399500) #
As long as it's not Ryan Adams...
uglyone - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#399504) #
Linedrive Bo >>> Groundball Bo
Chuck - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 09:09 PM EDT (#399505) #
Grandal's single was his 7th of the season, in the schedule's 10th week. And yet his OPS+ is 129. He has taken the whole TTO thing to a new level, at 61%. Has a player even been this productive before with such a low batting average? This has to be unprecedented.
hypobole - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 09:17 PM EDT (#399506) #
Don't know if Buck or Dan mentioned it, but looks like the Jays have hit the 85% vaccination mark.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 11:03 PM EDT (#399510) #
While I kinda agreed with him it's always nice to hear Buck choke on one of his oldskool rants like "I don't care about pitch counts I'd leave Ray in to lose this one it's his game to lose".
Thomas - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 11:03 PM EDT (#399511) #
I used to hate the White Sox TV crew when Hawk Harrelson was on it. I know some people - even a few non-White Sox fans! - liked Hawk. If he was an acquired taste, I never acquired it.

However, Steve Stone is now partnered with Jason Benetti, who replaced Hawk when he retired. I didn't hear them at all during the 2020 season. I am watching the White Sox broadcast on TV tonight and I'm really enjoying them. They're enthusiastic, knowledgable and have good banter. It really shows you what you're missing with Pat and Buck.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 11:25 PM EDT (#399512) #
Trent Thornton in high leverage innings.

When plans go awry.
Eephus - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 11:35 PM EDT (#399513) #
This is fun.

Whoops I meant sad. Sad definitely.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 11:36 PM EDT (#399514) #
Management might want to think about trading for a reliever or two sometime soon.

If they are trying to contend that is.
Eephus - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 11:37 PM EDT (#399515) #
This is a good team... but after all the injuries they seriously need some bullpen help.
Kasi - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 11:37 PM EDT (#399516) #
Not like the bats showed up tonight. You’re not going to win many games 1-0. Ray did pitch great but yeah poor showing by pen in the 8th.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 11:39 PM EDT (#399517) #
Bullpen didn't show up. You aren't going to win many games when you give up 5 runs.
Kasi - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 11:45 PM EDT (#399518) #
If bats had given them a lead then very likely the pitchers used would have been different. Also much different situation up a few than up one or tied.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 11:48 PM EDT (#399519) #
The Rays are now 39-23. Don’t wait around, Blue Jays. Unless you want to spend the summer scoreboard-watching the wild card race.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 11:49 PM EDT (#399520) #
Bats have been pretty good most of the time.

Sometimes you need your pen to come in the 8th inning of a tied game and not get completely worked over.
Kasi - Tuesday, June 08 2021 @ 11:54 PM EDT (#399521) #
We saw well enough against the Red Sox and Rays that this young lineup still chokes up pretty hard in close games. I think that’s the biggest thing getting Springer back will help, someone who has thrived under pressure.
Magpie - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 01:20 AM EDT (#399522) #
So... it turns out it's tough to score runs when the other team sends out a guy with a 1.98 ERA.
hypobole - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 01:54 AM EDT (#399523) #
Robbie Ray was terrific.

No comments on LaRussa having Hendriks pitch the 9th with a 5 run lead? Charlie always gets comments.
scottt - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 06:22 AM EDT (#399525) #
They got hits, just not with runners in scoring positions.
They also got Rodon out of the game in 5 innings, which is what you want to do with a starter with an ERA below 2.
A 1-run lead feels like a game the pen will blow away right now.

Adams got a double and had look fine behind the plate when I called it a night.

85bluejay - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 09:38 AM EDT (#399526) #
I like this team and will enjoy watcing them grow but I don't think it's the season to go all in and if the Jays fall off the pace they may even sell - Semien,Ray and Matz would be attractive pieces though I'm not confident about Atkins ability to sell given the Happ fiasco.
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 09:39 AM EDT (#399527) #
So, MLB aims to crack down on pitchers using foreign substances. But, fear not, Blue Jays. Believe me, you can count on "Slippery Pete" Walker.
bpoz - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 10:16 AM EDT (#399529) #
Happ was having a very good season in 2018. Atkins should have done better for a rental.
John Northey - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 10:29 AM EDT (#399530) #
Very frustrating game, but to be expected after the first few innings when they couldn't break through for more than 1 run. Hate when they swing on 3-0 counts as often you let the pitcher off a hook then - although Hernandez did come close to a home run. Really hate when a guy in the bottom of the order (Espinal) swings at a first pitch. If you are a poor hitter then you need to eat a few pitches at least especially when the starter hasn't got his best stuff. Still, those are nitpicks vs the nightmare the pen is now becoming (ghosts of 1984).

The big challenge now is finding arms you can count on in the pen. Dolis is not one of them with his 6.9 BB/9 rate. Romano really isn't one either with his 5.0 BB/9 rate, but he is the best we've got. This team needs to find a few guys who can throw quality strikes consistently. We had one in Phelps but he is gone. Merryweather was looking really good but who knows when he will be back and for how long. I'm hopeful that Castro will move into the 8th inning role shortly - have a good feeling about the kid. Trades will not likely make the big difference needed. We need some kids on the farm to come up and light up the pen like Sanchez did years ago, and others to move to the pen permanently and effectively like Cecil and Hendricks did.
hypobole - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 10:32 AM EDT (#399531) #
Happ was pretty bad his last 5 or so starts before the deadline. Tanked quality offers since he was just a rental. The deal was fair. The disappointment for many of us was the Jays didn't target younger kids with more risk, but more upside.
bpoz - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 10:58 AM EDT (#399532) #
Thanks hypobole. McKinney and Drury were given a pretty good opportunity to make it by the Jays.
electric carrot - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 11:01 AM EDT (#399533) #
Maybe going all in is not a good idea but II disagree with the notion that this team is not worth pushing at the deadline. At the beginning of the season I had this team pegged for 86 wins. And before last nights loss that was exactly the record they were headed for. But now I see a much rosier potential future. With Semien, Ray, Guerrero, Grichuk, Manoah & now even Stripling exceeding expectations; the imminent return of Springer & the eventual return of Kirk; this team looks loaded and playoff bound to me. I think making deadline additions, especially pitching, is the right choice.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 11:40 AM EDT (#399534) #
Especially since they have such a glaring weak spot that adding an impact pitcher or 2 could make a massive difference.

But I'm pretty sure the FO doesn't see it that way- they'll see any expensive P upgrade as too risky for not enough over their collection of maybes.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#399535) #
Leaside Cowboy - lol I was thinking the same thing. How much of Walker's "success" both as a pitcher and as a coach is due to his substances expertise?
hypobole - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 11:56 AM EDT (#399536) #
Where does this slippery Pete come from?
92-93 - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#399537) #
He helped George preserve his record Frogger score. One of the best electricians in all of NY. Kinda looked like The Lopper.
hypobole - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 12:18 PM EDT (#399538) #
https://bluejaysnation.com/2021/06/08/foreign-substance-crackdown-is-coming-do-the-blue-jays-have-anything-to-worry-about/

I'd be shocked if no Jays pitchers were using foreign substances, but sure does seem the Jays may be nearer the lower end of the substances spectrum.
scottt - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 12:44 PM EDT (#399540) #
The best case scenario is to get draft picks for Semien and Matz. Maybe extend Ray.

It's hard to go get a reliever so early in the year. Really need to overpay as selling teams like to auction what they got.
They still have a few guys in AAA that could get a shot. Some guys will return from injuries. Maybe other guys will figure out their role.

The Pale Hoses didn't look like guys who like to hit the hard stuff.
Maybe Payamps or Castro can deal with the bottom of the order in the 7th or 8th?
Could use the April Chatwood.

bpoz - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 12:48 PM EDT (#399542) #
TB let Morton walk and traded Snell. Seemed to me that they would have a hard time this year. Instead they are equal to SF in 1st NL.

TB also is continuing to pull away from the Jays and NYY. It will be time for me to panic by July 1 if there is no improvement. I don't think NYY will throw in the towel but I am ok if the Jays do.
Eephus - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#399545) #
One of the best electricians in all of NY.

"Oh, you mean the holes!"
Thomas - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 01:57 PM EDT (#399547) #
Slippery Pete, of course, must be distinguished from Prickly Pete, who is one of two horses kept at a second home up in the Hamptons.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 02:24 PM EDT (#399548) #
And more importantly, Handsome Pete. He dances for nickels.

Magpie - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#399550) #
his record Frogger score.

Do not mention that game to me. Please.

Oh, it was fun in the arcade, I admit. But I used to work an overnight shift up on Steeles Ave, west of Dufferin. I'd get out of there at 7:00 AM and it turns out Steeles is really, really busy at that time of day. And the nearest crossing intersection is a ten minute walk away, so it was live-action Frogger every morning. With me as the frog.

It's a miracle I'm still walking among you.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 04:55 PM EDT (#399553) #
"But I'm pretty sure the FO doesn't see it that way- they'll see any expensive P upgrade as too risky for not enough over their collection of maybes."

Man give it a rest. Signed Springer, Signed Ryu. "Collection of maybes" including Grichuk, Ray, Matz, Semien, Hernandez, etc... Oh wait, you're just complaining about the 3 or 4 guys that haven't been pitching well in May because they're probably overtaxed.... Right...keep cherry picking your arguments while you smear the front office.
hypobole - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#399555) #
Angels clubhouse worker was fired a while back for his own sticky concoction he handed out over the years. He named names. Cole, Scherzer, Verlander among others including some Chatwood guy.

Baseball announced that it had gathered info and was prepared to crack down a couple of weeks ago which pretty well coincided with a certain Jays pitcher going from terrific to something far far less than terrific. Yeah, correlation, causation, but hmmmm.
BlueJayWay - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 05:55 PM EDT (#399557) #
Maybe going all in is not a good idea but II disagree with the notion that this team is not worth pushing at the deadline. At the beginning of the season I had this team pegged for 86 wins. And before last nights loss that was exactly the record they were headed for. But now I see a much rosier potential future. With Semien, Ray, Guerrero, Grichuk, Manoah & now even Stripling exceeding expectations; the imminent return of Springer & the eventual return of Kirk; this team looks loaded and playoff bound to me. I think making deadline additions, especially pitching, is the right choice.

Agreed. I also had the Jays for about 87 wins or so. But factoring in the injuries they've had and the tough schedule, I think they might be a bit better than I thought. With some of the guys coming back, if they make a couple additions to the pitching staff suddenly this team looks very good. Sometimes I get 2015 vibes from them, in that with the right deadline additions I can see them going on a bit second half surge.
Magpie - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 06:51 PM EDT (#399558) #
Maybe going all in is not a good idea

There are degrees. You don't go all-in with this team like trading Karsay for Henderson (which would be like trading Pearson for two months of, oh, an elite third baseman.) But you definitely don't sell, not anything, not with this group. You're not going to tell this young group that we're punting on the season. Which leaves you looking for upgrades that don't compromise your future.
Magpie - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 07:23 PM EDT (#399560) #
But I dunno. Would you do it? Trade Pearson for Trevor Story? Or for Jon Gray? (There will, I assume, be some kind of bidding war over the next two months.) I don't think I'd do it this year. But next year? Maybe.

All kinds of desirable items out there, it's always a matter of what you're willing to give up.
johnny was - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 07:49 PM EDT (#399561) #
Just had to look up Jeff Hoffman and it seems that he's pitching perfectly averagely this year, but in the Reds rotation. Kind of surprised a third organization gave him a look after his time in Colorado.
Chuck - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 08:35 PM EDT (#399563) #
Abreu gets felled when the umpire throws the bat behind him and plunks him. By the time we are shown this, Buck has stated with an entirely misplaced confidence what really happened, and was 100% wrong. Buck has been doing a lot of this making shit up this year and it's getting tiresome. If he doesn't know, he should just say he doesn't know. Something in his brain makes him not just speculate, but assert his theories as fact.
hypobole - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 08:56 PM EDT (#399565) #
Did Buck say Scouting reports nowadays make everyone sound like Barry Bonds or Roberto Clemente?
Magpie - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 09:20 PM EDT (#399567) #
Did Buck say Scouting reports nowadays make everyone sound like Barry Bonds or Roberto Clemente?

I seem to remember Jim Bouton making a similar complaint in Ball Four - the coaches described what all the opposition hitters could do in such frightening terms that Bouton thought his best chance was pitching the guy underground. Something like that anyway.
Spifficus - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 09:31 PM EDT (#399568) #
I can't let a Lance Lynn start go by without watching Lance Lynn talks about fastballs.
greenfrog - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 09:59 PM EDT (#399569) #
The bottom half of the lineup is pretty bad right now. So far tonight Panik, Gurriel, Tellez, and McGuire are a combined 1/8 (a single) with no walks and three strikeouts. Not much speed there, either. I expect this puts a lot of pressure on the top five hitters to carry the team every day.
hypobole - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 10:12 PM EDT (#399570) #
Another reason they are 1 for 8 is that Lance Lynn is one of the best pitchers in baseball. Vlad, Semien and Teoscar are a combined 0 for 9.
ae_scott - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 10:18 PM EDT (#399571) #
"Lance Lynn is one of the best pitchers in baseball"

Who saw that coming?
This is an absolutely brutal stretch of games - I think I read somewhere that the Jays have played the toughest schedule in baseball so far - with only the Yankees being possibly a break (and who saw *that* coming?). Except for the blowout against Houston this team has hung in pretty well.
And it should be easy to find bullpen help right? Those guys grown on trees...
Chuck - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 10:27 PM EDT (#399572) #
Mets corner outfielders Pillar and McKinney have hit 4 homeruns tonight.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 10:35 PM EDT (#399573) #
"Man give it a rest. Signed Springer, Signed Ryu. "Collection of maybes" including Grichuk, Ray, Matz, Semien, Hernandez, etc... Oh wait, you're just complaining about the 3 or 4 guys that haven't been pitching well in May because they're probably overtaxed.... Right...keep cherry picking your arguments while you smear the front office."

Hey I'm not the one upset with and complaining about how the season is going.
Magpie - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 10:38 PM EDT (#399574) #
Pillar and McKinney have hit 4 homeruns tonight.

They both hit one against Orioles RH Mac Screoler, who's now allowed 6 HRs in his 5.2 major league innings.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 10:45 PM EDT (#399575) #
Helluva walk, vladdy.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 10:48 PM EDT (#399576) #
Has anyone noticed a change in Bo or is just random that his grounders have all suddenly turned into liners? Is he using his shortened swing more?
Magpie - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 10:53 PM EDT (#399577) #
Is Grandal wearing a miner's helmet behind the plate? What's with the lights? Are they lights? What is it?
uglyone - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 11:04 PM EDT (#399578) #
Love when Dan tweets in the middle of an inning.

This game is goofy

— Dan Shulman (@DShulman_ESPN) June 10, 2021
Magpie - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 11:06 PM EDT (#399579) #
He's not wrong.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 11:08 PM EDT (#399580) #
Romano is......fun.

Trying to figure out who he reminds me of.
Magpie - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 11:20 PM EDT (#399581) #
Trying to figure out who [Romano] reminds me of.

Well, there's Mike Mussina, obviously.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 11:21 PM EDT (#399582) #
Heh.


P.s.

Tellez pre-demotion: 63pa, .489ops
Telles post-callup: 64pa, .749ops (not including tonight)
Magpie - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 11:24 PM EDT (#399583) #
Mussina did the big squats on the mound, but I can't think of anyone who wiggled his butt the way Romano does.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 11:26 PM EDT (#399584) #
Lol.

But I seem to remember another weird motion big throwing often wild reliever but I'm blanking.
Magpie - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 11:30 PM EDT (#399585) #
Man, my vertical leap might be better than Abreu's. Anderson's throw the inning before was a tougher play because he was stretched out for that one. But the one this inning? Plus, he wasn't even on the base.
greenfrog - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 11:49 PM EDT (#399586) #
How did Manoah look tonight?

Add Springer, Kirk, Merryweather and another reliever (Hatch? Borucki? Pearson?) and the Jays should be in good shape.

Also, how close is SWR to being ready for the majors? Is this summer a possibility? He is performing well in AA. Walks are a bit higher than you’d like, but he is striking out a lot of batters.
pooks137 - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 11:53 PM EDT (#399587) #
Abreu gets felled when the umpire throws the bat behind him and plunks him. By the time we are shown this, Buck has stated with an entirely misplaced confidence what really happened, and was 100% wrong.

I had completely forgot about this incident earlier in the game even though I watched it in real time.

It makes you wonder if Abreu's shin contusion could have played a role in Abreu not being able to stretch high enough to corral a high throw on Semien's DP grounder in the 9th, allowing Tellez to score another insurance run.

pooks137 - Wednesday, June 09 2021 @ 11:56 PM EDT (#399588) #
How did Manoah look tonight?

Velocity was down again, similar to his Marlins start. Had trouble locating his slider. Two-seamer seemed like his most effective pitch with lots of "life" as Buck described it.

Magpie - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 12:39 AM EDT (#399590) #
I can't let a Lance Lynn start go by without watching Lance Lynn talks about fastballs.

Thanks for that. I've just spent the last fifteen minutes watching assorted Lynn post-game interviews. The man is a delight.
scottt - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 02:05 AM EDT (#399591) #
Bo is just getting hot a bit. Vlad was getting pretty frustrated with the 3rd strike calls.
scottt - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 02:17 AM EDT (#399592) #
Velo wasn't that bad. 94 to 96 mph. Missing a lot with the 96 ones. He got lots of missed strikes with the high 4-seamer.
The slider didn't have quite enough horizontal movement. Missed a lot with the backdoor ones and he threw mostly inside to right handed hitter, so he never got hurt by it since the misses were balls--or called strikes on Tim Anderson.
Somehow that started a conversation between Anderson and Manoah. Didn't result in a Manoah-mano though.
The changeup didn't have much movement either but he didn't throw a lot of those and kept them low.
2-seamer/sinker was the bread and butter pitch.

He had that bad inning, he spiked a comebacker to Vlad's ankle which Vlad got an error on. Then a passed ball on a strike to put the guy in scoring position. A ball hit to Gurriel that McGuire dropped before tagging the runner at the plate. Didn't faze him at all. He battled through 5 innings and it was fun to watch.

scottt - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 02:21 AM EDT (#399593) #
Was that a shin contusion? He was pointing at his knee and I don't know if he got hit or tweaked something while dodging the bat. When I get hit in the shin, I don't lay on the ground, I bounce around in pain. Pretty freaky incident. The ump tossed the bat over his shoulder and never had a look in that direction.
scottt - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 02:26 AM EDT (#399594) #
I always thought Romano was channeling Kimbrel.
He doesn't do the arm hang though.
Romano can't hold a runner at all, but teams are hesitant to run on Gurriel after they lose a runner at the plate.
Is putting Hernandez in left when Davis comes in center a good defensive move or is done to show support in Hernandez?

scottt - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 02:36 AM EDT (#399595) #
Almost a complete mirror image of yesterday's game. Weird.  The White Sox bullpen isn't exactly great either. Keep working the count on the starter.

I don't know if Chatwood is using a grip enhancer, but that was a good inning.
The grip thing is to get more rotation on the ball. Shouldn't affect the ability to throw strikes, which was the problem.
The one game in which he got shelled, it looked to me like he was getting ahead on fastballs and hanging breaking balls with 2 strikes.

Thornton is a high rotation guy, but he doesn't throw that hard.
He did hang up a lot with Buchholz in 2019 who is definitively a substance user.

pooks137 - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 03:34 AM EDT (#399596) #
I found a better video of the Abreu incident on Jomboy media's Twitter.

The bat thrown by the ump very clearly strikes Abreu in the left knee/upper shin area and Abreu just crumples without any obvious actions to get out of the way.

It's sort of academic if the bat bruised the knee vs the shin at that point.
ISLAND BOY - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 08:04 AM EDT (#399597) #
That was a bizarre play, especially since no one seemed to know what happened to him. Buck didn't wait for the replay and exclaimed," He was run into by the baserunner!", ignoring the fact that the runner had slid at home. Did he think the baserunner slid, jumped up and then steamrolled Abreu?

I laugh at Buck's calls sometimes. When Vlad hit a home run the other night against Houston Buck's call was, " And that ball is hit high and deep to left field, it's going to be close. That ball is going to stay --- gone!"
scottt - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 08:34 AM EDT (#399601) #
Very freaky. The camera just showed him laying on the ground after the play.
It doesn't really matter what Buck thought, or why, maybe he witnessed a runner at the plate hitting a guy in the on-deck circle before? That didn't spring to my mind. Remember last year when a guy in the on-deck circle kept moving closer and closer to the plate? Was that an Orioles player?

A bone bruise is a painful bruise, but I would take one of those before the some ligament damage in the knee.
Except, that reminds me of Devon Travis.

Abreu looked flat footed on both missed double play.
Not much he could have done on the first one and the ball just sailed through the top of his glove on the second.

ISLAND BOY - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 09:02 AM EDT (#399606) #
I remember that guy edging closer to the plate, Scottt, but I don't remember which team he was on. I commented on here that I was surprised no one on the Jays objected to him trying to get a read on the pitcher. He was to the left of the umpire in the traditional pitcher to home plate TV shot. I had never seen that before.
Parker - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 09:43 AM EDT (#399607) #
Pretty freaky incident. The ump tossed the bat over his shoulder and never had a look in that direction.

Let's see one of them new-fangled robotronic umpiring constructs do THAT!
Chuck - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 10:22 AM EDT (#399610) #
Let's see one of them new-fangled robotronic umpiring constructs do THAT!

Are you kidding? A robot will kneecap a player much more efficiently (you ain't coming back into this game). At least until Asimovian evolution takes place, and the rules of umpire robotics are tweaked so that the likes of Abreu are free to again wander safely.

Parker - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 10:43 AM EDT (#399611) #
Haha. Once you bring Asimov into it, you'll have the robo-umps pushing the catcher out of the way so he doesn't get steamrolled by the runner coming home. Or diving into the stands to catch a foul ball that would've hit a fan who wasn't paying attention. HBP's would also be entirely eliminated from the game...
bpoz - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 10:50 AM EDT (#399612) #
Nice one Parker.
92-93 - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 11:05 AM EDT (#399614) #
It will be interesting to see who gets demoted soon to make room for Biggio. Ideally it would be Beasley, it's likely to be Espinal, but really it should be Davis.

With respect to the late-inning defensive changes, it makes sense to keep Hernandez out there over Gurriel; it's more important to keep guys off the bases than it is to have enough arm to nail them taking an extra bag. Whether the team should be moving Teoscar from RF to LF and Grichuk into RF is a different matter. It's not like Grichuk has a noticeably stronger/more accurate arm, so the team might be better off leaving Hernandez in his RF spot and sliding Grichuk to LF. And frankly, Davis hasn't shown anything in CF that would suggest it's valuable keeping him around as a defensive replacement.
Magpie - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 11:33 AM EDT (#399615) #
Clearly, revised Laws of Robotics must be agreed upon before the game is safe for robo-umps.

I expect Espinal will be the odd man out when Biggio comes back, if only because there won't be enough playing time available to make it worth keeping him around. I'd much rather see the last of Davis as well, but I guess you have to have someone who throws to the wrong base and misses the cutoff man on a regular basis. And hits like a pitcher.

I understand Montoyo was taking some heat over Hernandez swinging at the 3-0 pitch, but I heartily approve of the green light in that situation. The game was tied (if they were trailing, I'd have thought differently), so let's give a struggling hitter a chance to swing if the pitcher serves up a fat one. It was Hernandez who mistook being given permission to swing with being ordered to swing.
Petey Baseball - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 11:44 AM EDT (#399616) #
More Buck Martinez talk on here gives me more rope to complain.

He was totally unlistenable last night. Nearly everything Shulman said, Buck went into his..."yeah, and.." Then he pivots into the same half dozen or so talking points. I mean poor Dan asked him about the pitch grip controversy and here's Martinez giving him a two minute spiel on something unrelated.

It is really sad for me that the duo I grew up on is ruined because Buck has become such a blowhard. Their TSN days, they were probably the best broadcasting duo in baseball.
GabrielSyme - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#399617) #
If there's ever a time to have a red light, it's in that situation: one out, tie game, bases loaded, and a new pitcher who hadn't even been close to the zone.

Now, maybe I've missed some study and 3-0 swings are a better bet than I've been led to believe but I just don't see it.
92-93 - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 12:34 PM EDT (#399619) #
That spot would've been bad for a red light. It's a tie game, sure, but you're on the road, it's only the 8th inning, and you don't have a bullpen you can trust to preserve a one run lead when you still need to get six outs. Your #4 hitter should be someone you trust in that situation to only swing at a pitch he can do some real damage with and give your team some actual breathing room. Heuer made a good pitch that likely gets called a strike anyway.
pooks137 - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 12:54 PM EDT (#399620) #
I do think Espinal will be the odd man out when Biggio returns, but Biggio and Panik both hitting LH makes for an awkward platoon at 3B and doesn't allow for exploiting SP matchups.

The other issue is that both Panik and Biggio don't really have anywhere else to play with the current roster construction.

With Gurriel Jr hitting well presently, there's no room to give Cavan starts in the OF. There's no room for starts at 1B with Tellez on the roster. The Jays don't seem to be load managing Bichette and Semien other than 1/2 days at DH, and both Panik and Biggio are presently huge downgrades offensively and defensively at present.

Biggio's best position might be on the bench as a true supersub unless he starts hitting at historic norms.
Chuck - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 01:19 PM EDT (#399622) #
I understand Montoyo was taking some heat over Hernandez swinging at the 3-0 pitch, but I heartily approve of the green light in that situation.

Right, but the green light means you are allowed to swing if the pitcher serves you a juicy meatball, not that you must swing, even if it mains flailing at a pitch out of the strike zone.

After so much newfound discipline, flailing Teoscar seems to have returned. It'll be sliders away until he shows that discipline again.

scottt - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 01:28 PM EDT (#399623) #
Panik might be a platoon guy, but Biggio isn't.
Also you can put Panik at 3B and Biggio somewhere else if that's convenient.

Whoever hits will get ABs.

It's going to be even more interesting next year when they go to 13 pitchers and 13 position players.
Personally, I like to have a real basestealer on the bench, not just a good runner.


Spifficus - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#399624) #
Damnit! I missed the robo-ump overlords conversation! Would they unionize? Or would that automatically count if they were in the cloud, and The Union would simply be their hive-mind?

As for Buck being particularly tough to listen to last night, yes for sure. I will say, though, that he did bring up an interesting point on the grip conversation - the nature of the ball surface has changed due to how they're rubbed up (and also how quickly they're taken out of play, which he didn't mention). Also, he came up with a pretty clear delineation that makes sense to me - grip-augmentation to get a uniform and reliable grip to help aid in control is OK, but grip-enhancers to get extra spin takes it too far. That's not to judge anyone doing it now - it's a wild west, and I don't hold ultra-competitive people at fault for ignoring a rule that everyone else is ignoring too. I'd like to see a solution that's an MLB-approved tacky-patch supplied by the umps that a pitcher could use. If anyone suspects anything, the ump can swap the patch and take the old one for testing to see if any other adhesives are stuck in it. I can already think of a dozen logistical issues with it, and there are probably a hundred more, but it's a thought at least.
Magpie - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 01:43 PM EDT (#399625) #
maybe I've missed some study and 3-0 swings are a better bet than I've been led to believe

I would have missed it too! There's no way of knowing how often Montoyo's given a hitter the green light - sometimes they swing and miss, sometimes they foul it off, sometimes they take ball four or a strike they didn't want to swing at - but so far this year eleven 3-0 pitches have been put in play. The 4 hits in 11 ABs wasn't that great, but the three HRs (one by Kirk, two by Springer) were nice. Bichette has the other hit. Vlad's gone 0-3, Teoscar 0-2, Tellez and Davis (Davis? Davis?!?) 0-1.
Magpie - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 02:11 PM EDT (#399626) #
Random historical musing coming up....

I've been brushing up on my Detroit Tigers history lately (yeah, there will be a new Lobby installment coming some off-day in the future) and their old manager Hugh Jennings was notorious for his antics in the third base coaching box. Which set me to wondering - when did managers stop coaching third? How did this work back in the day?

Well, originally it worked just the way it does down at your local diamond - one of the players took on the duty. John McGraw was the first manager who saw the need to have an actual coach, and he hired Artie Latham to coach third base in 1909. Latham was responsible for their being a coach's box in the first place - when he was a player, he liked to run up and down the third base line screaming obscenities at the pitcher. (I know the feeling.) Anyway, the coach's box was devised in a desperate attempt to restrain him.

Latham proved to be a lousy coach, and McGraw soon fired him, but he was the first of his kind. I don't know who the last manager to serve as his own third base coach might have been. Connie Mack and Joe McCarthy certainly had other men doing that job. The 1930s was awash with player-managers, they had to have coaches for this sort of thing. But I also know (there's video!) that Leo Durocher was coaching third base when Bobby Thomson hit his famous home run in 1951.
scottt - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#399627) #
I saw a different angle on twitter. Abreu is running behind the plate to get in position to tell the runner where to go and the ump tosses the bat in his direction and he walks right into it. I can't really tell where it hits in the leg but, yeah, he does not react to the bat until he's hit. The color commentary for the White Sox suggested Abreu should get a free swing at the ump.
Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#399629) #
On the playing field at New Comiskey, there are two smaller dirt circles along the baselines, both in foul territory and just adjacent to the larger home plate circle. Have been wondering, what are those exactly? (A few other ballparks might have them as well.)
Cracka - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#399630) #
It's a "Fungo" circle used by coaches to hits balls for fielding practice. Fenway Park has them too but not sure if there are any others left. The purpose was to prevent coaches from wearing down the grass during practice, but most places just use tarps or mats now I think.

Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#399631) #
Interesting. Thank you kindly, Cracka.

The kid owner/manager in the 1994 picture "Little Big League" takes a turn coaching at third base.  If I recall, the announcer mentions that he mimics Tommy Lasorda in doing so.

Nigel - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#399633) #
In reading the comments over the past month, I am intrigued by how the first 150 ABs of this season seem to have changed the perception of Biggio's offensive abilities in some quarters. His previous 1500 AB's (all his AB's from AA and up) were pretty consistent in quality. I appreciate that he has struggled defensively at 3B to date, but there is such a massive difference in offensive ability between he and Espinal/Panik that I don't really understand the rush to make him a bench piece.
uglyone - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 05:28 PM EDT (#399635) #
Especially since in his last 50 of those PA he's back at his usual 114rc+.
hypobole - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 06:27 PM EDT (#399636) #
Madrigal to the 60 day IL with one fully torn hamstring tendon and another partially torn.
scottt - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#399637) #
Panik in against Keuchel. Either they really wanted to give Bichette some rest or they don' t want to overuse Davis.
AWeb - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#399638) #
It was mentioned upthread about balls being taken out of play so much these days. That might contribute to pitchers needing to get a better grip more easily, but I suspect it's also a bit of a circle here. Sticky balls get dirty and stay dirty more easily, so they get taken out of play more often...that's my guess.

Also, umps have clearly known about this forever...they are constantly handling balls and taking them out of play. The Joe West incident a couple weeks back that helped kick this whole thing up coincided with him breaking the all time games umped record, hence his need to draw more attention to himself. He wasn't wrong, but he also has been a knowing part of the problem the whole time.
Chuck - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 07:35 PM EDT (#399639) #
Sticky balls get dirty and stay dirty more easily, so they get taken out of play more often...that's my guess.

Do umpires even look at baseballs any more to vet them with an eye of keeping them in play? Those days seem long gone. A pitch hits the dirt now and it's out of play, no questions asked.

Magpie - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 07:36 PM EDT (#399640) #
Panik in against Keuchel. Either they really wanted to give Bichette some rest or they don't want to overuse Davis.

Also, Panik hits LH better than Davis.
AWeb - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#399641) #
"Those days seem long gone. A pitch hits the dirt now and it's out of play, no questions asked."

That is actually my point. I think at least part of why that has happened is that the ball is sticky, so it gets irrevocably dirty just by touching the dirt once. Can't be quickly brushed or wiped clean, so it's replaced. A normal baseball cleans up real easy at least a few times...anyway, just one of a dozen things that slow down the game to no benefit of spectators or viewers. Baseball is amazingly incompetent at managing its only product.
Gerry - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 08:13 PM EDT (#399642) #
Ben Wagner suggests that Springer might start his rehab on Saturday.
Gerry - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 08:33 PM EDT (#399643) #
Hate to see steroid guy hitting that home run.
Spifficus - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 09:10 PM EDT (#399644) #
This is the age of the batter's eye, cover the tats, and cut your laces, so I don't think baseballs are being allowed to get anywhere near as dirty. Could you imagine a baseball with any bit of a dirt smudge on it, wobbling its way to the plate? Compared to a day with sandpaper in gloves, emery boards, pine tar everywhere, modern balls look like they've just been taken from a dust-free hermetically sealed vacuum chamber.

As for who goes down for Biggio and Springer when the time comes, Tellez has to be on the short list, no? DH/1Bs that aren't hitting don't offer much use no matter how left-handed they are.
uglyone - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 09:12 PM EDT (#399645) #
Reverend Buck is insufferable.
Spifficus - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 09:17 PM EDT (#399646) #
Old Man Yells At Cloud Shaped Like Pitch Framing. Thanks Buck.

I mean, let's ignore the fact that he seems to think pitch framing is actually done by the glove. I mean, can umps even see it on a pitch at the knees from their crouch?
uglyone - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 09:25 PM EDT (#399647) #
"Old Man Yells At Cloud Shaped Like Pitch Framing."

Ha. Yup.
Magpie - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 09:25 PM EDT (#399648) #
It's not about so framing so much as the fact that an umpire's tendency is to call the pitch a ball if the catcher moves his glove. Teams used to actually teach this to their catchers.
Chuck - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 09:32 PM EDT (#399649) #
The Buck record appears to be stuck.
Spifficus - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#399650) #
Exactly. The two zones most likely to be influenced by the catcher are the quadrants away from the ump - Low, and Away. There's no framing a high and/or inside pitch because the umps eyes are right there. Getting low will allow an ump to crouch more, making low pitches appear closer. Starting the glove low makes all movement be upward, meaning there is no chance of downward movement telling the ump the pitch is low. Lateral movement is why short-armed catchers like Kirk and Kurt Suzuki have difficulties.

Notice how Adams stayed high for that high fastball (now a half inning ago)? It not only gave Ryu a high target to hit, it also straightened the ump up a bit, moving his eyes.

Now, what I'm saying is probably just stuff I'm vaguely remembering from podcasts, articles, etc, with an insane dose of post hoc rationalization. In this age of data, though, I can't see them teaching something without purpose.
uglyone - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#399651) #
Wait is that guy their actual SS?
uglyone - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 09:50 PM EDT (#399652) #
The thing about Panik is that he has consistently quality at bats, always posts a decent obp, despite a complete lack of pop. It's a nice option to have tbh.
Gerry - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#399653) #
One area where I agree with Buck is that a lot of catchers move the glove "a LOT" after catching the ball. The best catchers are much more subtle. Framing does have some benefit but it needs to be so subtle that the umpire barely notices.
uglyone - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 10:05 PM EDT (#399654) #
I don't even think buck is necessarily wrong but he's still insufferable on his soapbox.
pooks137 - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 10:26 PM EDT (#399655) #
I've enjoyed Panik's little hot streak, but I don't know if I'd say he has lots of quality ABs.

He hits sooooooooo many weak grounders to the 1B.

The shift was invented for guys like Panik.
Magpie - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 10:37 PM EDT (#399656) #
I juts checked Buck's story, and he either remembers it remarkably well or he just looked it up. But yes, the White Sox took the first three of four from the Royals (July 29-31) and then the Royals swept them a week later.
Magpie - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 10:38 PM EDT (#399657) #
But I find it's a basic rule - always check the old ballplayer's story against the record!
greenfrog - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 10:57 PM EDT (#399659) #
Hindsight is 20/20, but wouldn't it be great if the Jays had passed on the high-risk, high-reward Yates and paid up for Hendriks instead?

Hendriks has been outstanding again this year, 26.1 innings after tonight's game, 16 saves, 1.71 ERA, 3 BB, 42 K.

Obviously $54m/3 is pricey, but he would look very good in the Jays bullpen this year. Hendriks/Romano/Merryweather would be a formidable trio in high-leverage situations.
pooks137 - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 11:11 PM EDT (#399660) #
The Jays front office seemed to change their tune that their offseason was done and they were no longer in the market for starting pitching after signing Marcus Semien for 18 million on Jan 30th. This seems to suggest that Semien's pillow contract used up the rest of their 2021 internal budget, which has so far looked great in hindsight.

So the question is probably less of "should the Jays have signed Hendriks over Yates?" and more of "would your rather sign Semien and Yates or Hendriks and whatever 6 million dollars can buy you"
John Northey - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 11:23 PM EDT (#399661) #
As I recall the Jays did try for Hendriks but weren't getting anywhere - another 2nd place finish. Hendriks signed on January 15th, 5 days later the Jays signed Yates. It seems clear Yates was the backup plan. Funny, when Hendriks signed no one commented on it (I mentioned it twice but just as a 'interesting deal' because the Sox were very creative with the 4 years $54 mil where Hendriks has year 4 being $15 mil or a $15 mil buyout).
Scott a few days later: "The Jays were after Hendriks who got a massive overpay. 4 years on a reliever is playing with fire." which even now I'd agree with. Look at Yates - a few spring games then boom goes his arm.
greenfrog - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 11:33 PM EDT (#399662) #
Weren't Atkins and Shapiro saying that the organization is finally ready to spend with their better-resourced competitors in the division? Yet somehow the Jays payroll is still $30-60m lower than those of the Yankees and (supposedly rebuilding) Red Sox.

I'm happy with a lot of what the team has done, but perhaps they could have committed some extra funds to get even better. Bauer was probably never realistic after the Springer and Semien signings, but going after Hendriks (instead of, say, committing $10.25m to Yates/Phelps/Chatwood) isn't an outrageous notion. Especially since Shapiro has said he wants to keep some funds in reserve for future signings. Hendriks (signed to a three-year deal) was effectively a "future signing" in that he would have helped the team in the 2021-2023 window of contention.
greenfrog - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 11:43 PM EDT (#399663) #
Anyway, the one FA I'm happy to have advocated for was Realmuto (2.1 WAR and 148 wRC+ so far this year, even with a broken thumb in spring training). Many people said signing him would be redundant because Jansen/Kirk (combined WAR: -0.2) would be a perfectly good catching duo and that the Jays had a much more pressing need in center field.
uglyone - Thursday, June 10 2021 @ 11:45 PM EDT (#399664) #
"Weren't Atkins and Shapiro saying that the organization is finally ready to spend with their better-resourced competitors in the division? Yet somehow the Jays payroll is still $30-60m lower than those of the Yankees and (supposedly rebuilding) Red Sox."

Yep.
hypobole - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 12:42 AM EDT (#399666) #
And spend the Jays did,

More than any other team this offseason.

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2127767
Kasi - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 12:50 AM EDT (#399667) #
Yeah last I checked the Jays spent a ton in the offseason. And they wanted to keep some budget for next year's starting pitching bonanza. Shame Springer has been hurt til now, but hopefully he's back soon.

Would I like Hendricks on this team? Sure but not at that contract. Relievers are just too fungible/replaceable to really want to put that much into it.
uglyone - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 01:06 AM EDT (#399668) #
Payroll is payroll. No fudging that.

The fact they spent so much less than this in previous years is even worse.
Kasi - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 01:51 AM EDT (#399669) #
Payroll is set by Rogers. Not like there is anything to be done about that. Why would they spend in rebuilding years? Just be happy they're spending more now and look to be adding in coming years.
hypobole - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 02:02 AM EDT (#399670) #
They said they were going to spend. They spent.

Now you want to talk payroll? A Yankees fan did a couple of years ago.

https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/a3e759/the_percent_of_revenue_each_team_spent_on_opening/

If any can post anything more current, please do so.
scottt - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 05:36 AM EDT (#399671) #
The Red Sox are not rebuilding.
They're doing the same type of things the Jays did in 2017.
Except, Bautista couldn't hit anymore, Donaldson couldn't stay on the field, Tulo was starting to fall apart, and Martin was just an average hitter at that point. 

Devers, Bogaerts and Martinez are 24, 28 and 33 and having great rebound years.
Also, as a team, they've been extremely healthy.
The only guys on the IL are Sale and Brasier and they were there when the season started.

bpoz - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:28 AM EDT (#399673) #
Regarding payroll, TB is the lowest in the AL East I think. Maybe Baltimore is lower. Hopefully the Jays cut payroll by maybe $10-15 mil at most next year. I expect an overall lower payroll next year. NYY and Boston may also reduce payroll I think.
scottt - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:04 AM EDT (#399674) #
Ultimately, it all depends on the new CBA, but New York and Boston are both cutting to get under the luxury tax this year.
This will allow them to spend as much as they want next year.

Boston has a weak farm.
The Yankees have a lot of tough decisions to make. Do they give Judge a huge extension? Is Voit done?
J. D. Martinez and Judge are free agents after next year.

The Blue Jays, on the other hand, are still dealing with the growing pains of a young core.


hypobole - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 11:05 AM EDT (#399675) #
Years back I remember pointing out year after year we would have an entire off season Festivus with everyone airing their grievances about Rogers. Our complaints weren't without merit. Rogers constrained AA with their payroll parameters. Beeston was and still seems to be teflon in the whole deal. Some things I know, like his limits on free agent contract years and some I don't. How hard did he work with Rogers to get the payroll to be able to run with the big boys?

Shapiro has been able to convince Rogers to spend on free agency and the Jays have spent plenty the past 2 off seasons, just like they said they would.

So now we're shifting the goalposts to complain about total payroll. Seems like some rich preppy complaining his dad only got him a Porsche,while Jasper and Winthorpe have Ferrari's.

bpoz - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 11:23 AM EDT (#399676) #
Well said hypobole. Especially about AA and the payroll parameters. Shapiro and Atkins have signed Ryu and Springer. So far Ryu has produced quite well. Springer not yet.

I recall that the trade with the Marlins in 2013 increased payroll but did not increase winning. The good moves by AA in 2015 (Martin expensive contract) and Donaldson (expensive player capital) were not increasing winning until after the trade deadline. Shapiro was hired before the trade deadline.
pooks137 - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#399677) #
Hopefully the Jays cut payroll by maybe $10-15 mil at most next year.

It will be interesting to see how Rogers treats the dip in revenue and the economic disadvantage they suddenly encounter in 2021.

They were very generous in providing capital to spend big in the 2020-21 offseason after a lost 2020 year in terms of gate revenue (but also only having to pay 60 games of payroll expenses) and a very uncertain 2021 outlook in terms of if baseball would be played again at all and what it would look like.

Now, 60 games into the 2021 with full payroll obligations and a rapid lifting of capacity limits at the 29 other US stadiums, the Jays are suddenly left as the lone economic loser without gate revenue as they can only collect whatever pittance from fans in Dunedin and now Buffalo. While recent developments have been positive, there's likely no realistic scenario where they can sell tickets at Rogers Centre before August.

While the return of fans in the US likely improves the Jays slice of MLB shared revenues, they are temporarily the worst team in the league for the near future in terms of gate revenue (and don't qualify for traditional revenue sharing anymore).

While you would hope the Rogers Centre situation would be back to normal by 2022, it's hard not to think that a corporation that is obsessed with the bottom line would have to revise their short-term spending forecasts given that their revenues are suddenly at the very bottom of the league temporarily.

uglyone - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 12:05 PM EDT (#399678) #
They don't spend near the big boys. That's a fact.

Saying they spent more than they did in previous years doesn't mean anything.
Kasi - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 12:17 PM EDT (#399679) #
Sure it does. If you want to keep on complaining that the Jays don't spend as much as teams owned by billionaire private owners go ahead but we know that as they're owned by a public corporation that the Jays operate under different parameters than most. No one said that the Jays were going to go from rebuilding to maxing out their payroll in one year. Anyway just more complaining by someone who likes to hit the Jays when they're down.
uglyone - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 12:28 PM EDT (#399680) #
Well, don't get frustrated when they don't win as much as you want them to, then.
92-93 - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 12:34 PM EDT (#399681) #
Rogers saved plenty of $ on the team in 2019-2020 while franchise values continue to rise. It's ridiculous that they have trained fans to believe they could ever lose $ operating the team, and that people will be disinterested in players that could improve the roster simply because their contracts are too big. That money saved goes straight into Rogers' pockets and is never used in the future. The only reason the Jays are first in that %-of-revenue-spent table is because Rogers can "pay" the Jays whatever they want for the Sportsnet contract and pull whatever accounting tricks they need to serve their optics purpose. The payroll should rise by at least 30MM next year, not get cut.
John Northey - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 12:48 PM EDT (#399682) #
I find this obsession some have with payroll funny. The only time it matters is during free agency and when the team is looking at extensions for kids. The Rays are almost always last or near the bottom for payroll but contend nearly every year since 2008. Via Cot's the Jays first $100 mil payroll (a figure the Rays have yet to approach) was in 2013 (the year they did those big trades to become a contender). It went up in 2014 but then went down in 2015 (the year they won the division)climbed each of the next 2 years to $163 mil at peak, dropped a tiny bit but climbed the rankings to #8 overall (same as in 2013 and tied for highest ranked payroll in the 2000's) but that was 2018 when they finished 35 games back in 4th place. payroll dropped by nearly $50 mil for 2019 to 21st overall. In the screwed up 2020 year they ranked 20th, and now are back up to 13th overall with a $135 mil payroll. For competitive balance tax purposes the pay has been over $100 mil every year from 2012 on.

The Rays from 2012 on have cracked $100 mil for CB tax just once ($103 mil in 2014) and for opening day payroll has been 26-30 rank every year from 2011 on. In 2000 they were 10th overall (and came in dead last), 18th overall in 2001 (dead last again), and ever since have been between 25 and 30 with 2010 the only exception (#22). They lost 90+ only once since 2008 (2016 their only last place finish in the AL East as the Rays) with 6 playoff appearances, twice to the World Series never reaching 1.9 mil in attendance during that stretch.

The elephant in the division, NYY, have been #1-4 for opening day payroll every year from 2000 on with the exception of 2018 when they were 6th (trying to get under the cap to reset their tax). They are $200+ mil most years but boy does 2018 stand out at just $166 mil, a figure the Jays have never reached on opening day or year end 40 man roster (very close in 2017). Of course the Yankees only missed the playoffs 4 times since 1994 (I'd count that as they were in first when the strike hit - a 12 year stretch with no playoff appearances before that from 1982 to 1993)

Boston has been top 8 every year for opening day payroll from 2000 on. $236 mil in 2019 their peak which got them a 3rd place no playoff appearance. 10 playoff appearances in 21 years (2000-2020) including 4 WS titles.

So payroll helps, but Tampa proves it isn't the be-all, end-all. Just like the Yankees in the 80's and early 90's showed a big payroll doesn't guarantee anything. The Jays are in a safe spot with a top 15 payroll imo. They have seen how TV ratings and attendance spikes when the team is winning so Rogers will invest to try to stay in that zone thus maximizing revenue. I expect more stuff to limit player salaries out of the negotiations this winter (some form of revenue sharing/payroll cap to come).
Nigel - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#399684) #
John you are absolutely right that payroll isn't the be all and end all for success but the reverse is also true - over time, payroll spend and success are highly correlated in non salary capped sports and nothing else is particularly close.

In my view, Rogers can run their team exactly how they want and spend as much or as little as they want and I have no right to complain. If I don't like it, I can choose not to consume their product. Having said all of that, I really dislike it when Rogers or the FO tries to tell the fan base that this team couldn't be and isn't a large market team. That's a choice Rogers has made (which I fully agree is their choice).
hypobole - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 01:13 PM EDT (#399685) #
"Rogers can "pay" the Jays whatever they want for the Sportsnet contract and pull whatever accounting tricks they need to serve their optics purpose"

Nope, doesn't work that way.

Remember the "Audit" Shapiro talked about? Rightly pointed out, it's not a real audit, just teams going over other teams books. The revenue generated from the Sportsnet contract is subject to revenue sharing. Now teams may pull scams on their fans, but teams aren't going to let other teams pull scams on them.

Other teams have a pretty good idea of what the Sportsnet contract should be worth, high end, low end. I'm sure the Jays would try to be on the lower end of actual value, but there's no way other teams are gullible enough to allow the Jays to get away with Rogers "paying" whatever they want for the Sportsnet contract and use accounting tricks on them.
Nigel - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 01:30 PM EDT (#399686) #
hypobole - I agree with all of that. However, I'm a cynic on this particular issue (probably on others as well:)). I do believe the tv contract is artificially low and that that is sanctioned by the other owners as a replacement for the former fx payments that the Jays used to receive to help deal with the revenues in CDN/vast majority of expenses in US. I have zero proof of that so I accept any criticisms of that view.
hypobole - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#399688) #
Hey, Nigel, I guess it's more plausible than "lizard people". I'm much more cynical about rich people gifting richer corporations their money. But that's just me.
greenfrog - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#399690) #
"I find this obsession some have with payroll funny"

Number of times the Blue Jays have won the AL East in the last 25 years, compared to the competition:

Yankees: 14
Red Sox: 5
Rays: 3
Orioles: 2
Blue Jays: 1

Nope, payroll clearly has no correlation with how well a team does over time. Nothing to see here, Rogers customers. Move along.
scottt - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#399693) #
Wen they sign Ryu one year and Springer (the most expensive free agent) and Semien (the best free agent after 60 games) the next, it's hard to complain.

The need seemed to be the rotation, but that's starting to look better.


scottt - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#399695) #
If you look at the last 20 years, there were stretches in which the Jays were not really trying.
2000, 2003-2005, 2010-2012. Those were short rebuild spans.
The main complaint we heard recently was that the Jays didn't go through one of those in 2017-2018.
The drop in salary in 2019-2020 has more to do with the new core graduating than a payroll constraint.
However, the Jays rebuilt the farm with a minimum of trading because of good drafting and international signings.
Notice that the AA years were built on front loaded contracts that hit hard in 2017-2018.
Also, 10th-11th place went from 126M to 163M in 2017. That's a huge raise. 
The team is good. Money should flow in and they still have a lot of young guys to graduate to keep the team competitive over the next 6 years. It gets murky after that.
They can afford to sign a good starter and a couple of elite relievers over the winter.
Where's the problem?

2021 135M (13th)
2020 51M (20th)
2019 114M (21)
2018 162M (8th)
2017 163M  (11th)
2016 137M (13th)
2015 126M (10th)
2014 137M (9th)
2013 119M (8th)
2012 84M (21st)
2011 71M (22nd)
2010 79M (20th)
2009 81M (16th)
2008 97M (10th)
2007 82M (16th)
2006 72M (16th)
2005 46M (25th)
2004 50M  (22nd)
2003 51M (23rd)
2002 77M (11th)
2001 77M (10th)
2000 46M (21st)

greenfrog - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#399696) #
“If you look at the last 20 years, there were stretches in which the Jays were not really trying”

Well, that’s the problem in a nutshell, isn’t it? And even when they were “trying,” they were mostly being outspent, and outperformed, by their rivals. (Also, your sentence should read 25 years, not 20.)
scottt - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 05:17 PM EDT (#399697) #
I wasn't watching the Jays before 2000, so I won't comment on that period.
The payroll isn't a problem now. The last time it was a problem was 2014-2015.
I think Bautista offered to defer  his salary so they could sign Ubaldo Jimenez.
Yeah. That would have been bad.
The current issues have more to do with roster management than payroll.
They stopped signing pitchers when the 40 roster was full.

92-93 - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#399698) #
That's some nitpicking on hyperbole, hypobole.

The "accounting tricks they need to serve their optics purpose" are what Rogers pays for the Jays' TV rights. Without the mostly useless third-party audit Rogers Media could simply not "pay" the Jays anything at all. When one of the two primary bidders for those rights isn't involved in the process it's impossible to ascertain true market value.

A few years ago Boras said the Jays' TV rights were worth approximately 4X what the Jays were receiving. Obviously he has an agenda, but the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle. The overall point remains - the Jays make $ every year, franchise values continue to go up, and fans should stop apologizing for a lack of spending commensurate with the size of the Canadian market. Tickets have nearly doubled in price since the Jays ran a 165MM payroll in 2016.
John Northey - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#399700) #
I suspect the league taxes the Jays (like they tax the Yankees and others) based on their view of the value of the TV rights, with 0% depending on what Rogers chooses to transfer to the Jays. If the Jays do well, Rogers makes more from those rights immediately (higher ad rates, more advertisers trying to get on the Jay games, etc.). When the Jays suck Rogers gets hit right away too (lower ad rates, needing to give time on other shows to advertisers so they don't walk away). Rogers has a FAR bigger incentive to keep the Jays competitive than most teams. The Rays have no incentive. They suck, they get low ratings and low attendance. They win, they get low ratings and low attendance. The Red Sox have low incentive - they win or lose and the park is packed, with great TV ratings. People there just love their Sox like Leaf fans love their team. As die hard Jay fans we are lucky that there are so many bandwagon fans across Canada. The Jays do well, the TV ratings literally can multiply. The Jays suck the park gets empty and TV ratings plummet. Very big incentive to win that is inescapable for the Rogers management. Now, is there much difference between a 90 win and a 100 win team? No. If the Jays make the playoffs the ratings go through the roof, if they are a dominate team can those ratings/ticket sales go higher? Unlikely. So the incentive is to have a solid 90 win team every year. A 90 win team might win 100 sometime, might win the World Series even. But that is what the Jays are built for. I expect some effort at improving the team so season tickets for 2022 can do well, and to up TV ratings today, but I don't see the Jays going all-out again like last winter with Springer.
Kasi - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#399702) #
Yeah I'd agree with John and hyperbole here. While it is impossible for us to ascertain the TV deal and such, I really don't think that flies at the ownership and profit sharing level within the higher ups in MLB. I really really doubt the Jays could change how they interact with profit sharing by changing a mostly meaningless internal number on how they exchange money between divisions of their company.

Unlike John I think the Jays will dip into the FA pitching market this winter. Whether they'll get the top dog I doubt it, but they I think will sign a starting pitcher in the 20/year range.
bpoz - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 06:53 PM EDT (#399706) #
With Ryu and Springer they brought in elite players. They were prepared to pay very high to get that kind of elite.

Bauer and Lindor money is much higher. Bauer is short term which has that benefit. Long term like Lindor can be very risky. We will wait and see.

They were willing to sign Happ who maybe overperformed for us. They possibly saw the team decline coming. Can't go wrong on 1 year for Ray, Matz, Yates, Phelps as far as affecting the "financial flexibility" asset.

They have knowledge about the 2019 payroll and record. 95 losses. Paid $114 but $50 mil of that was for Martin, Tulo and Morales to not play here.
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