He’s on a 10 WAR pace this season with an OPS over 1000. Do players who perform like this at a very young age actually improve? What do their aging curves look like?
I though I’d look at some young players who made a big splash at a young age to see what their careers had in store for them.
Mike Trout announced himself to the league at age 20 with 10 WAR. His offense did follow a traditional growth pattern to age 27 (and he seems to be at that level still), but declining defense and time lost to injuries have precluded a succession of 10 WAR seasons, though when healthy, he stills performs at that level.
Alex Rodriguez also made his splash at age 20, with a 1000 OPS and 9 WAR and more or less held steady until age 31, with a few dips en route. There was no obvious growth from his first big season. I leave it to others to debate the role PEDs played in his career.
Ken Griffey performed very well from age 20-22, but at age 23 he broke through, recording his first of four 1000 OPS seasons. The 9 WAR he posted would be matched just twice in his career, actually being exceeded during his peak at ages 26-27. His bat held steady from age 23 to 29, but his defense declined and then injuries were the story throughout his 30s.
Ted Williams established himself as Ted Williams in his rookie season at age 20. He reached his peak at age 22 and stayed there until age 28, posting one 10 WAR season after another (missing out on three likely such seasons due to military service). His decline would start at age 31. Age 38 saw his Ponce de Leon season, finding ~10 WAR one more time. So he never really improved from who he was at age 22, but he managed to stay at that level for a long time.
So what does this very brief and certainly unscientific study mean for Guerrero? Will he actually improve from age 22 (assuming he retains his 10 WAR pace)? Boy, that does seem like a very greedy thing to ask for. Trout and Griffey improved as hitters, but gave away points as their defense in CF declined. But they weren’t sporting a 200 OPS+ like Guerrero is, so had room to grow offensively. If Guerrero can model Ted Williams (yeah, just that) and sustain his current level into his late 20s, that would be a monumental achievement in and of itself. He’d go down as one of the all-time greats.
So perhaps the “Guerrero’s only going to get better” talk should be given a rest. Age 22 may in fact be his peak, and a more reasonable thing to hope for is that he can live in this stratosphere for the foreseeable future.
He's having a season for the ages.
Anyways, there's plenty of room for fake improvement at least - there's very little luck anywhere in his numbers right now. You inject a dose of babip luck in there and whoa.
Looking around the league at teams in the basement (over 5 games out, last or 2nd last) I don't see any other good targets (either playing very poorly, or too far from free agency to be traded at a reasonable price). Of course, a SS or 2B could work too. And maybe a contender would do a trade if they have a hotshot ready to take over from a vet. Always possibilities if you are flexible/creative. FYI: Kim (who the Jays could've had last winter) is hitting just 203/256/329 so far in 156 PA. But is 10.1 UZR/150 at 3B so he'd have been nice on defense there at least - but his bat is pathetic so far.
I was there too. It was a weekday matinee, the only game on the docket. And it was the morning after Angel Nick Adenhart was tragically killed by a drunk driver.
When the trade deadline is here I would need to analyze and evaluate our position in the standings this year as compared to the 1992 team in their time.
If there is not much change 6 weeks from now the strong teams would be TB, CWS, Boston, SF,SD and LAD. They should go after a big player like Scherzer or Bumgarner if available. Bumgarner has 2 more years on his contract after this year and Arizona may want to rebuild. Bumgarner has also been injured so the cost may be light. Of the above 6 teams 5 are in the strongest divisions. Only CWS is in a weak division, so they may not believe that they are equal to TB/Boston.
The chance is still there, but all in all last offseason was still half-measures, and not an all-in attempt to contend. Whether it's wise to go with half measures when your prime big money guys are 31 and 36...well, that's a different question.
Me I'm actually enjoying this year - Vladdy is making it special and making our future even more exciting, and keeping our heads above water with no Springer at all, even after our pitching came back down to earth, is pretty impressive imo.
If Springer comes back soon then even with a shaky staff we can still get in, though it won't be easy.
Ryu & Ray should qualify as solid I hope if not bad performance/injuries. For elite there is an example in every years playoffs.
Matz & Manoah have to prove that they are solid. Pearson too needs to prove he is solid.
The elite SPs for the last few playoffs probably are going 7+ innings in each start. Hopefully Borucki, Romano, Merryweather and anyone else can take the ball in the 8th and preserve the win.
Vlad may destroy. 9 good hitters in the lineup should/could wear down the other team.
On the one hand, he's so good this year so far you'd expect that it is more likely he is overachieving his current "true talent" than hitting or underachieving just because it is so rare for anyone to be performing at this good a level / have a true talent this good.
On the other hand, he is young, so the plexiglass fallback/regression to the mean could well be offset by him playing at a higher true talent level next year (I.e., imagine he finishes the year at a 1.100 OPS but imagine that his true talent level currently is "only" 1.000 OPS. Maybe next year he has a 1.050 OPS but that might be hitting his true talent level because maybe as he ages he goes from true talent 1.000 OPS to true talent 1.050 OPS so the regression to true talent is less).
In addition, while Vlad made impressive offseason changes to his weight/fitness last offseason which (very likely) contributed to him reaching this new level of play, I don't think he's necessarily all the way done with that transformation. He lost ~45 pounds in the offseason, but just by eyeball it looked like he probably had another ~20 pounds he could have lost to be even fitter/more athletic build. I'm not sure if he will have the same type of offseason approach as last offseason (although I imagine these good results this year may help motivate that), but I think it is possible there is an even more athletic Vlad possible next year than this year. I don't know if that would necessarily translate to an even better performing Vlad next year than this year (because it is hard to imagine anything better on the offensive side, and even the baserunning and defense has been pretty good this year to date), but it is at least plausible and again it is possible it just improves the true talent level to cut against regression to the mean.
Either way, even if this year is the best Vlad ever is and he has the next 8 years or whatever just slightly below this level, that is still a very impressive and valuable MVP candidate player!
I'm thinking - well, this is what I get for actually advertising the fact that I have an Excel file with every start ever made by a Jays pitcher. (The Jays won 6-2, by the way.)
What fascinates me about this is it's exactly what Grichuk said he was going to try to do, mid-way through 2019. And I know I thought, yeah right. I'd just listened to Kevin Pillar every year talk about the adjustments to his approach that he was going to try to make, none of which ever lasted more than six weeks. But Grichuk seems to have actually achieved something (and it did start in the second half of 2019, that's when he began to seriously reduce his strikeouts.)
I think we all figured he was going to be an overpaid fourth outfielder this year. Right now, it looks like when Springer gets back in the lineup (the deity who watches over soft tissue compalints willing), Grichuk will be in RF every day and Hernandez and Gurriel will share LF and DH for the most part.
See ya, Rowdy.
It was also the first MLB game to feature a matchup with two pitchers both drafted in the first round and both making a debut.
Porcello was among the very top players in the 2007 draft. However, he fell to the Tigers at 27th overall due to his over-slot demands. (Scott Boras was his agent.)
CF Springer 135wrc+, 4.6war650
SS Bichette 120wrc+, 4.7war650
1B Guerrero 149wrc+, 4.9war650
2B Semien 121wrc+, 4.6war650
LF Hernandez 117wrc+, 2.6war650
DH Kirk 115wrc+, 3.5war650
RF Grichuk 112wrc+, 2.4war650
3B Biggio 105wrc+, 2.8war650
C Jansen 96wrc+, 3.5war650
UT Gurriel 106wrc+, 2.1war650
OF Davis 81wrc+, 1.0war650
IF Panik 90wrc+, 1.2war650
C McGuire 76wrc+, 2.0war650
The big question is whether Jansen and Biggio can jump back up that level. If Jansen doesn't, easy fix to move Kirk to C and put Gurriel in at LF/DH. If Biggio doesn't, there's no easy fix....unless Gurriel can play 3B.
My first thought was, gosh, Ryu always seemed pretty elite to me. But I crunched some numbers to be sure. Here are 2020-21 numbers for the top starter from each of the eight teams vying for the five AL post-season berths. (There are still five of them, right?) 100 IP minimum:
ERA GS IP W L H R ER HR BB K FIP WHIP ERA+ Bieber CLE 2.36 24 156.1 14 4 111 44 41 16 50 239 2.48 1.030 189 Lynn CWS 2.46 23 142.2 13 4 101 46 39 18 42 152 3.71 1.002 178 Cole NYY 2.54 24 148.2 13 6 108 47 42 20 28 198 2.88 0.915 165 Ryu TOR 2.95 23 131 10 5 120 47 43 14 28 131 3.22 1.130 146 Bassitt OAK 2.96 23 137 10 4 116 47 45 12 34 135 3.27 1.095 135 Eovaldi BOS 3.76 21 115 11 4 116 49 48 10 21 117 3.01 1.191 120 Glasnow TBR 3.28 23 134.1 9 3 89 49 49 21 47 197 3.31 1.012 119 Greinke HOU 3.67 25 149.2 9 5 141 61 61 16 25 127 3.40 1.109 117
Can someone explain Lance Lynn to me?
* With his bat-to-ball skills, I think there's room for him to make even more contact. His contact rate was higher both in 2019 and in 2020. I think he may be more consistently swinging harder than in the past, but the potential for still more contact is there.
* He still seems to get a little over-eager in some situations, expanding the zone.
* I expect with his power, average and batting eye, that pitchers will throw him fewer strikes and his BB% will increase even higher.
* I'm not sure that we're seeing as much consistent pull-side power as he's capable of. Certainly it's there, but he doesn't seem to elevate the ball as consistently to the pull-side as he has to the opposite field and centre.
Obviously, he's an amazing hitter as he is. But it's not impossible to imagine there's still room for improvement.
My memory if correct is that playoff excellence is different to regular season excellence.
J Guzman was elite for 1992/93 sample. Maybe 12 playoff games?
D Price and R Clemens? were regular season elite but not playoff elite with a large sample size.
Halladay playoff elite small sample. Bieber not playoff elite small sample.
I am not cherry picking to make my point. It just seems that way. I can add Orel Hershiser I suppose and many others.
Jack Morris was great for Minnesota in 1991. I don't know his playoff history/record. I think J Guzman may have a better playoff record.
I always had hope in Vlad. Many have disappointed me. It is nice to be rewarded. What does Vlad have to do in the playoffs to shine like Reggie Jackson? Jackson was the playoff best? I mean in modern history!!
The Jays have to continue writing recent playoff history which started in 2020.
- Dave Stieb: 5 starts, 4.26 ERA 1-3 record.
- Jimmy Key: 7 games, 5 starts, 3.03 ERA team was 4-3 in those games.
- Juan Guzmán: 8 starts, team 7-1, 2.44 ERA - all in his first 3 ML seasons. The loss was a 2-0 loss.
- David Cone: 4 starts, 3.22 ERA team 3-1, twice didn't get through 5 innings
- Pat Hentgen: 2 starts, 1-1 record, 7 ERA, both in 1993 - was scheduled to start game 7 if not for the Carter home run. We were all scared of it.
- Tom Candiotti: 2 starts, 8.22 ERA Ugh.
- Mike Flanagan: 1 start 5 R in 4 1/3 IP, a loss.
- R.A. Dickey: 2 starts, 7.11 ERA, team 1-1 in his starts.
- David Price: 4 games, 3 starts, 6.17 ERA, team 1-3.
- Marcus Stroman: 5 starts, 4.40 ERA team 3-2.
- Dave Stewart: 4 starts, 4.26 ERA, team 3-1.
The 1992/93 teams had tons of pitchers who had been great before (Cone, Morris, Stieb, Stewart, ... you get the idea). These Jays aren't there yet.
Right now these Jays are the 1984 team - a really good team of kids getting gelled together but needing help still. Back then they needed a bullpen (sounds familiar) and had a few problems (Griffin 48 OPS+ at SS while Fernandez was on the bench or in AAA with his much better bat and glove for some reason is a good example, an obsession with platooning no matter what even though Mulliniks at 3B had a 124 OPS+ while his 'partner' Iorg was at 49, Whitt at CA 104 with Buck Martinez 77). That team was close. And young.
Now a team can go pretty far in the playoffs with just a great bullpen.
Problem here is that the Jays have a lot of guys who lack experience.
Second best starting ERA in baseball.
9th best reliever ERA--still better than the Blue Jays. Second in walks, second in strikeouts, 16th in HR, 23 in hits.
5th best offense, first in OBP, 4th in batting average but 22nd in HR.
All the hitters are better than average except Eaton.
This could feel like a playoff series.
Are you mad??? Seager is over the hill and due $25 million. Controllable for a year and a half. Gurriel and Tellez are controllable longer, cheaper on payroll and one of them is already better than Seager on talent alone.
Jays wouldn't do Tellez alone for Seager with that fat contract.
In the end, lets hope the Jays get some guys going deep regularly. Matz best is 6 2/3, Ray reached 7 once, Ryu 7 innings 3 times, Stripling (7 IP in relief, otherwise never more than 5).
1:03
Guest: Why is Bo Bichette struggling so far this year? I thought he would be an all star type this year at SS.
1:04
Kevin Goldstein: He’s never had good swing decisions, and I think the advance folks in this game have found a way to exploit that weakness. It’s a concern.
Bo launch angle by year: 10.4, 12.0........4.1!
This of course means that his groundball rate is way up this year, with the corresponding downtick being pretty much entirely his linedrive rate - his flyball, popup, hr/fb rates all have remained the same.
Interestingly, he's posting the best exit velocity of his career so far.
So that's literally the only difference I can see - launch angle WAY down, groundballs way up, and linedrives way down.
And then I started wondering - what would be the Yankees best post-season start? The Dodgers? The best - and worst - post season starts, period. It's not like I have a life or anything.
Well, no. I haven't done that work. But I did check the Game Scores of a few. Don Larsen's perfect game was a 94, as was Doc's no-hitter for the Phillies. Bob Gibson's 17 K game was a 93. Sandy Koufax once put up two 88s in four days (Oct 11 & 14, 1965.)
But the best Game Score of all? I'm betting it was recorded on October 9, 1916 when Boston's starter allowed a single run in a 14 inning victory. Game Score was 97, the pitcher was - who else? - Babe Ruth.
That was 1927 of course, and while Gehrig did have a pretty nice season - .373/.474/.765, OPS+ of 220, stuff like that - I would assume that a lot of that value came from the fact that he and his fat teammate in right field were the only guys in the league who hit home runs. The Babe himself hit more homers than every other team in the league, and Gehrig came close himself (he had 47, the A's hit 56.) He has that same season just five years later and it's not nearly as valuable.
Postseason...
- Babe Ruth: 3 starts, 97-78-54 (8 IP 2 R)
- Bob Gibson: 9 starts, 93-87-82-81-80-80-62-56-55. 8 IP once, 9 7 times, 10 once. Crazy.
- Sandy Koufax: 7 starts, 1 relief. 88-88-79-79-68-62-50
- Whitey Ford: 22 starts, 88-81...28-28. 7 scores sub 50, once only lasted 1 inning.
- Greg Maddux: 30 starts, 5 relief, 83 peak, 16 worst
- Randy Johnson: 16 starts, 3 relief, 91 peak twice (2001 9 IP 1 BB 11 SO 3 H shutout, 2001 WS same line), 5 sub 50's worst a 23 in 2005 as a Yankee
- Curt Schilling: 19 starts, 89 peak (80 vs Jays was his 3rd best), worst a 22 as a Red Sox.
- Christy Mathewson: 11 starts, peak of 86, worst a 45, his only sub 60.
- Mordecai Brown: 9 starts, peak of 86
"Kowar had dominated at Omaha with a minuscule ERA of 0.85 with 41 strikeouts and 10 walks in 31 2/3 innings and a 5-0 record in six starts."
Which got him a promotion today. How did it go?
Ground out, walk, wild pitch, single, walk, wild pitch, single, wild pitch, ground out, single. Hook.
0.2 IP, 4 ER, with more WP's than outs. Welcome to the bigs.
On Bo, Goldstein's chat today.
Why is Bo Bichette struggling so far this year? I thought he would be an all star type this year at SS.
He’s never had good swing decisions, and I think the advance folks in this game have found a way to exploit that weakness. It’s a concern.
"The NHL has reached an agreement with the Canadian government to allow for cross-border travel beginning with the Stanley Cup semifinals, the league announced Sunday.
NHL teams coming from the United States will be able to play in Canada, but are subject to enhanced health protocols. The team must arrive on a private plane and will be subject to daily COVID-19 testing. Once in Canada, the American-based teams will live in a "modified quarantine bubble" and have no contact with the general public."
I think you've scooped up all the greatest WS starts there, with one exception - Jim Lonborg's one-hitter in 1967, which scored 88.
He goes all out, but with 2 strikes, he focuses on protected the strikezone which means he seems less likely to go down on a ball called strike three.
Like everybody else, he's going to have to make some adjustments as he goes.
It really underscores how hard it is to predict the future values of players and why I don't resent the front office for not handing out extensions willy nilly.
The eye test suggests that a Bichette who is just a wee bit more selective could produce a whole lot more. But he's only 23 and yet to accrue even a full season's worth of at-bats. Plenty of time for progress.
For fun I was looking for long games from the past and hit this doozy from 1920. 26 innings with both pitchers going the distance. Game scores of 153-140. Just 7 K's each. 3 hours 50 minutes. Called due to darkness (1-1 tie). Hard to imagine a game that many innings going for under 4 hours.
Interestingly, while in Colorado they use it to increase the humidity of the ball, so it carries better but leaves the bats are a reduced velocity, in humid cities--like maybe Boston--it's used to dry the balls so they leave the bat at a higher velocity but die down at the warning tracks.
Meanwhile analysis have shown the ball physics to change from month to month and regular season to postseason.