I feel like the old adage: "Great trade! Who did we get?" works here.

It opens a spot being wasted on a vet who wouldn't be here in a year.

So long, Pearcey. You should have been the starting DH...

Honestly, didn't think Pearce was really tradable so getting back anything interesting is good. Makes sense for Boston who struggle against lefties I guess. What the Red Sox are doing with Swihart is strange and almost unprecedented. If you're going to try to win, why are you carrying someone on the roster who isn't helping you. They seem to be so concerned about losing Swihart who isn't much of anything right now, that they are sacrificing wins now.

Imo Pearce was always going to be traded for by any contender in need of a legit bat - and Pearce is good enough that if he stays healthy and hot may find himself starting for the Sox sooner or later...and even being one of their better bats tbh. every team in the league knows he's a legit good hitter.

Espinal isn't really my kind of prospect, but he's interesting enough that I gotta trust the scouts on this one.

and I love hearing that we added in cash to get a prospect we liked. we should be doing that with every single trade.

Opinion on other sites seems to be negative. I have to say that I disagree. There's precisely no market for 1B/DH types (not named Hosmer). We get a lottery ticket who at least has contact skills and decent defense. Plus we can finally balance the bench with a youngster (Gurriel?).

I'm in favour of this move.

1 DH down, 2-3 more to go.

funny that even after this move, Morales still belongs on the bench.

I feel like the old adage: "Great trade! Who did we get?" works here.

No room for Pearce on this roster. The move was salary relief, with Toronto apparently kicking in some of the 3MM still owed Pearce. The return looks like nothing and really all the Jays were ever going to get.

Pearce will grab some platoon AB at first base and be insurance at DH if Martinez needs to take the field should a starting OF go down. At least that will be Pearce's role until his next injury.

Pearce is a good piece for a contender. I think he has always gotten miscast as a platoon bat when he hits both sides well. His issue is almost entirely injuries. He can't stay on the field for a prolonged period of time but is usually good when he does play. I really liked the signing two years ago, but it clearly did not work out as hoped. The Red Sox probably won't play him in the outfield as much as the Jays did, so that should help him.

As far as Espinal, I do not know anything about him aside from what his stats say, but the biggest positive as Mike mentioned is his change in batted ball profile. Significantly more line drives and fewer ground balls this season compared to the past. It does seem like he made some type of change. Lottery ticket seems like a pretty accurate description. His ability to play short will certainly make him more interesting if his bat continues to progress as he moves up.

From Ken Rosenthal:

Source: #BlueJays included $1.66M in Pearce deal. #RedSox’s obligation to him will be $1.5M. Latter number important as Sox try to stay under third and highest $237M luxury-tax threshold. Penalties grow harsher as luxury-tax number rises; Sox already past $197M and $217M.

"The move was salary relief"

how do you figure, chuck?

@Ken_Rosenthal
Source: #BlueJays included $1.66M in Pearce deal. #RedSox’s obligation to him will be $1.5M. Latter number important as Sox try to stay under third and highest $237M luxury-tax threshold. Penalties grow harsher as luxury-tax number rises; Sox already past $197M and $217M.

"The move was salary relief"
how do you figure, chuck?

Dumping a player who is not needed and who will no longer be paid (though is heavily subsidized). Unless people see the return of a 23-year old in A-ball as germane to this deal.

A comment from a few days ago mentioned smart orgs target Max Muncy types. Doesn't Espinal's profile suggest he's working to be a Max Muncy type?

Getting arguably the best 24 yr old position player prospect A ball seems pretty fair return for a very good RHB platoon 1B/DH with a very limited market.

And Pearce may stay healthy the balance of the season, but there is a very real possibility he doesn't and it was smart of the FO to take what they could get now.

2016-2018

vRHP

Martinez 157wrc+
Betts 131
Benintendi 129
Pearce 111
Pedroia 110
Bogaerts 107
Bradley 106
Nunez 104
Moreland 101
Devers 92
Holt 87
Leon 79
Vazquez 66

vLHP

Martinez 170
Betts 145
Pearce 135
Pedroia 128
Leon 125
Bogaerts 120
Devers 115
Moreland 104
Vazquez 98
Nunez 85
Bradley 80
Holt 75
Benintendi 68


2017-2018

vRHP

Martinez 163
Benintendi 125
Betts 122
Moreland 114
Nunez 106
Pearce 105
Bogaerts 105
pedroia 92
Devers 92
Bradley 84
Vazquez 76
Holt 72
Leon 64

vLHP

Martinez 200
Betts 167
Holt 138
Pedroia 136
Devers 115
Pearce 109
Bogaerts 108
Moreland 100
Vazquez 91
Leon 85
Bradley 82
Nunez 78
Benintendi 76




The other thing is, of course, that Pearce might make mincemeat out of the Green Monster.

"Dumping a player who is not needed and who will no longer be paid (though is heavily subsidized). Unless people see the return of a 23-year old in A-ball as germane to this deal."

well, I sure hope he's more germane to this deal than the....$1.5m in savings, don't you?

It isn't about the return, either the player or the money. It is about freeing up the spot for another player.

Any return is gravy.

Mike makes the same point I made in an earlier thread on this trade.

I do think the Jays included some or all of their payment towards his salary in order to get Espinal. The alternative was presumably not including cash, or as much cash, and getting a true filler prospect or a PTBNL who never materializes. I would be surprised if the best offer available was that Toronto eats half of Pearce's salary and gets an org guy.

Pearce has put up half a win in under 100 at-bats, so if he stays healthy he could be a nice platoon bat for a contender. The return was never going to be great given his defensive limitations and health, but I agree $1.5 million seems below market for half a year.

I'm not interested in trades where the primary purpose is saving Rogers money (unless Toronto was to buy a prospect in a later deal). And I don't think there was any need to free up the roster spot right now, as opposed to waiting a month to see if a better deal materialized.

Pearce is not a guy you want to wait a month with.

His 137 wRC+ line is a good as it can reasonably be expected to be. Last year, it was 99. Plus his injury history.

He's hot now, trade him now.

"It isn't about the return, either the player or the money. It is about freeing up the spot for another player."

I'll just say that it's frustrating that the "spreading the money around on many depth free agents instead of concentrating on top ones" strategy might already be resulting in "dump guys because we need to free up roster spots" moves.

It's not about the roster space.  They've got 8 relievers on the roster including Guilmet and Mayza, they had a day off and their starters look like they should be able to average about 6 innings a start from now on.  They can use a middle infielder, but the problem is that they haven't wanted to call up Gurriel Jr. to do occasional work. 

it is kinda funny that we were running a bench of 2 DHs and a catcher, though.

" They can use a middle infielder, but the problem is that they haven't wanted to call up Gurriel Jr. to do occasional work. "

Then rotate him between ss and 2B. Lord know he's probably as good or better than either of the current 2 players. Even if he hasn't played much 2B it would be hard to be worse than Travis.

I really think Gurriel slots best at 3B. His arm is pretty great. So is his mobility. but his hands not quite as great.

I quite like the return here - Espinal is high on the defensive spectrum and has a little speed. With that foundation, his bat looks quite intriguing - a quite strong contact rate and enough power to make it work.

He should be moved up to AA sometime this summer, probably when Bichette gets moved up to Buffalo.

Let Gurriel learn to be a utility guy at the MLB level. Worst case scenario he bumps us up a draft slot or two.

Ugly- I don't know that Pearce fits your "spread the money" narrative as well as some of the other signings.

At the time be desperately needed to fill both 1B and DH (Smoak had yet to emerge) and he was a necessary piece. The vast majority of fans (and experts) felt like he was the best signing the Jays made that offseason.

Looking back at that free agent class is illuminating.
Cespedes has been injured, Turner overlapped with an Donaldson, Fowler was hurt last year and is terrible this year, and trumbo, desmond, napoli and moss have been awful. The top pitching options were all closers at a time when we had a scandal-free Osuna. Essentially I'm not sure there was an opportunity to "aim high" outside of Edwin.

And Pearce wasn't the guy that prevented us from bringing back Edwin (that was Morales who fits your narrative as a mistake both then and now). Pearce's salary did not handcuff us in any way. His roster spot did, but that could have been alleviated at any time by dumping Kendrys.

we desperately needed.

I'd kill for an edit function on this site.

rasta I like pearce and I liked the signing.

but i don't think there's any question that he was part of a spreadoutthemoney strategy.

Hypobole, my point with the "wait a month" sentence was that if, as rprista suggests, the motivation of the trade was only to free up a roster spot, then the Jays were better served to wait a month and try to get a seller to get desperate closer to the deadline.

In the "free up a roster spot" theory of the trade, the fact that Pearce is playing well is of almost no consequence, since the Jays consider Espinal an org player.

My point is that because Pearce was playing well, the Jays were able to get a prospect they want for Pearce and a little cash, which is why it made sense to act now.

I don't know if Espinal will turn into anything, but I don't buy an explanation that the Jays consider Espinal an organization player, and were willing to pay $1.5 million, just to free up a roster spot. That same trade would presumably have been available in a month (i.e. trade Pearce and cash for nothing).

good to see the fans of Ricciardi-era Blue Jays roster moves are behind this move. can we bring back the toothpaste logo? i miss the good old days. such cost savings. love how it helps *our* margins, things are looking better for FY18, i think we might end up outpacing some of the playoff teams again. i'm excited to see if the FO can finagle some new transfer payments from ol' Manfred. lots of baseball left this year! this is definitely further proof that this organization is an elite one befitting the third largest city in baseball, and largest with only a single franchise. go jays!

I do not know about you guys but this may be about time to bring Danny Jansen up. Russell Martin can then play both at 3B and C and consequently free up fielding time for Solarte to play shortstop and less stress on hitting for Diaz
Or if a utility infielder is indeed needed in Toronto, bring Jason Leblebijian up. There is not much about developing or letting him spend playing time in Buffalo. Bring him up and see if any value can be saved from his development.

Espinal is at least interesting, and I'd prefer "interesting" to "salary relief". I find it puzzling that some would suggest the Jays are doing this as a salary relief move...when they kicked in money to (presumably) improve their pick of the prospect they got.

Jays have done this for several years now (taking on or kicking in money to improve their trades). It's great to see, and I find it puzzling that some seems to be taking the view that they are somehow skimping. Does anyone here prefer to have Pearce play out the string here instead of obtaining any sort of prospect value for him? Because that seems borderline crazy to me.

Jays dump an aging FA veteran & gain a roster spot - Good
Jays get a lottery ticket their ex-Red Sox employees probably like - Good
Jays save some cash - Good

It looks like it's going to be buyer's market with fewer teams in the hunt - teams that wait until the end of July may well be left empty handed.

Now the Jays need the Angels,Twins & A's to close the gap with Seattle and Boston to move ahead of the Yankees.

Let me say there is no player on the 25 man roster whom I wouldn't move.

I don't understand why somebody wouldn't like this move.

Do you think:

1. The Jays should have gotten more?
2. The Jays shouldn't be selling and should go for it this season?

Is there another reason that I'm missing?

Thanks for the clarification Thomas. And I agree with your points.

So where does Espinal rank on our prospect list?  The term 'prospect' is clearly in question ... Espinal looks like a 'pop up' talent ... someone who was not on the prospect radar until this year, but with a changed approach and some real helium - why not?  To me, I think of Yeltsin Gudino ... similar value prospects to me, both SS, Gudino is 2.5 years younger, potentially breaking out in high A.  Espinal was an older college draftee but not a senior, with about half the signing bonus typical for a tenth rounder.  He's apparently made changes in his approach, and has an impressive line for a SS in high A ball.  Both guys should be tested at a higher level - Gudino just got the call back to Dunedin, Espinal belongs in AA.  who do you guys like more?
If my comp is fair, this puts Espinal in the 45-55 range, in terms of prospect depth in the org - so, comparable to Dwight Smith Jr, Conor Fisk, J-Leb, etc. 

Not nothing, not much, the org is rolling the dice on a guy who may have added something to his repertoire ... it's the right approach in my book.  how many guys show something and then fan out? Bradley Jones just retired, Clemens is struggling badly in Dunedin after dominating Lansing ... but then again, Conor Fisk is knocking on the big league door.  This feels like our acquisition of Tim Lopes. 

But we save a bit of money, we create space for young, cheap players with at least a bit of upside, and one out of ten tim lopes types becomes a ... Ryan Tepera? 

The Jays have added Darnell Sweeney to the 40-man roster and called him up for tonight's game. He had 98 at-bats with the Phillies in 2015.

I believe Gurriel hasn't been in the minors for 10 days, which is required before h can be recalled.

Can we know if the Jays management attempts to develop Gurriel Jr. as an utility player?

jer I don't see him in our top 20 at this point.

yeah Ugly, not even close to top 20, like I said above, 45-55 is my offhanded ranking.  That may actually be generous.  still think it's a fair deal.

Interesting that Orelvis is only ranked #13 on Fangraphs’ July 2 draft big board, despite the sizable bonus he’s receiving from the Jays.

I'd guess Espinal would be more in the back end of the top 30, maybe a little behind guys like Samad Taylor and Logan Warmoth - but not much behind them. There's probably 20 prospects clearly ahead of Espinal, but a case can be made after that point.

He's hot now, trade him now.

The definition of great timing: Steve Pearce returns from injury, hits well, gets traded.

The definition of bad timimg: Josh Donaldson's 2018 season.

Taylor and Espinal are quite dissimilar, given their respective ages and present defensive abilities. I prefer Taylor, given his age (still only 19) and longer track record of decent offensive performance. But you can make a case that their rankings in the Jays system should not be that far apart.

I think that's too high...he's more in the palacios/gudino/noda range.

good to see the fans of Ricciardi-era Blue Jays roster moves are behind this move. can we bring back the toothpaste logo? i miss the good old days. such cost savings. love how it helps *our* margins, things are looking better for FY18, i think we might end up outpacing some of the playoff teams again. i'm excited to see if the FO can finagle some new transfer payments from ol' Manfred. lots of baseball left this year! this is definitely further proof that this organization is an elite one befitting the third largest city in baseball, and largest with only a single franchise. go jays!

So the Jays should have held on to Steve Pearce?

I could list 30 objectively better prospects than Espinal off the top of my head.  That says more about me and my lack of a life than anything, but Espinal wasn't a top 30 prospect for the Sox, and he's clearly not a top 30 prospect in our superior system.  I compared him to Gudino in my prior post, who i have in the 40s, but Palacios is arguably top 30, and Noda top 20 in my book.

I do think that the prospect is germane, Chuck. Actually, he's Santiago.

Pearce is a bench player and they got a decent bench player prospect for him.
Works for me.

I'll just say that it's frustrating that the "spreading the money around on many depth free agents instead of concentrating on top ones" strategy might already be resulting in "dump guys because we need to free up roster spots" moves.

Wasn't this bound to happen either way though, with the awesome farm system you keep telling everyone Anthopoulos left the team with?

exactly, Parker.

Why don't you compare the Pearce trade with the off season trades. Diaz, Solarte and Grichuck? It is not a big trade. None of those trades are big. IMO.