Can't remember the last time we actually got an out with the hidden ball trick.

I don't remember ever seeing it in a game I've actually been watching. And I go back a ways.

I am excited to watch another season of Estrada starts.

Smoak's OPS in his last 170 AB's (since Aug.1) is 738, which number is otherwise known as his career OPS.

I don't remember ever seeing it in a game I've actually been watching.

Why do I have a mental picture of the trick working on Molitor while he was a Jay? Can anyone confirm this?

That's kind of harsh on Smoak. He has been great this season. His secondary numbers since August are still good (12.0 BB%, 20.4 K%, .214 ISO, .240 BABIP, nearly 50% FB, 36.4% hard contact, etc), except for the lower BABIP. There's nothing there to suggest he's fallen back to the old Smoak. Looks like normal regression on a small sample size. He may never repeat this season again, but I think he's likely reached a new level of expected performance.

Agreed on Estrada. Glad to have him back next season on a very reasonable deal.

Sadly not a shock to see Smoak going back to who he always was. I think most expected that. I think the Jays would be smart if a sucker out there decides Smoak's improvement is a new level for him to get a few prospects or a good major leaguer for him. Counting on him to do in 2018 what he did in 2017 is a poor risk imo. The Jays got lucky twice with Bautista and Encarnacion but to get that lucky a third time is unlikely. This might be more like how Saunders was in the first half last year (298/372/551 followed by a 178/282/357 second half) and Juan Francisco in 2014's first half (240/313/515 followed by a 172/240/322 second half and hasn't had a ML PA since). Smoak this year is 294/360/575 first half, 250/356/504 second so nowhere near the collapse of the other 2 but still a big drop. I wouldn't actively try to trade him but if someone makes a good offer I'd dig in and try to expand it as much as possible.

On the other end... in their breakout years...
Bautista 2010: 1st: 237/361/543 2nd: 287/397/702
Encarnacion 2012: 1st: 295/382/565 2nd: 261/385/547

Bautista actually got better in the 2nd half after everyone knew he was having a 'wow' year. Encarnacion dropped a tiny bit but not much and mostly on BABIP.

There is an old rule - better to trade a year too soon than a year too late. Smoak looks like a high risk for that. A 70 point 2nd half drop in OPS is worth noting (almost all in slugging). Still he is cheap ($4 mil next year and $6 mil option for 2019) so like I said, not an active hunt to trade but if someone wants him see if you can get some top prospects or can fill some ML holes and go for it. He is providing tons of bonus value right now, if that can be converted into bonus value for 2020 and beyond it would be great.

Sorry if that was interpreted as harsh on Smoak. That wasn't my intent the number is just a fact. Smoak has been great. However, I tend to believe in 7 years of previous data and that his first half stats are the small sample size fluke, but you never know.

Smoak is just tired. You can see it. He has never played this many games in a season. Gibbons didn't rest him much.

gonna finish 3rd in the division btw.

Smoak's OPS in his last 170 AB's (since Aug.1) is 738, which number is otherwise known as his career OPS.

That's his career OPS including this year. His career OPS before this year wasn't even .720.

Now, compare his year with Saunders' last year and there isn't much to complain about.

Thankfully, the Orioles and Rays are playing one another, so they can't both lose.

I finally read the SN abridged interview. I made a comment about FO guys not bashing players, but that's totally accurate. There are swipes that need reading between the lines.

I used to manage people. I've had people who did the best they could, never complained and went the extra mile when needed. They just didn't have the capacity to be any more than they were. I've also had people who were a lot smarter, had much more innate ability, but sometimes wrongly placed their priorities over the organization.

The Goins response wasn't even a question about Goins, just about guys back next year he's comfortable with. But later Shapiro brought up things that went dramatically wrong and the first item he mentioned was Osuna's blown saves.

I know nothing about Goins and clubhouse dynamics, but he strikes me as a "doing his best with limited ability" team player type.

Now I harken back to last season's Osuna interview where he admitted the team wanted him to start, but he wanted to close. Again, I don't know internal dynamics, what was said behind closed doors, but Shapiro's comment certainly seemed a dig at this situation

I made a comment about FO guys not bashing players, but that's *not* totally accurate.

I agree that hard work and positive attitudes towards collective goals have real and tangible value. However, they don't turn someone who can't do the job into someone who can. If Goins were even replacement value then I could understand his utility. He can't see replacement value from where he stands and hasn't been able to since 2015. Shapiro knows this and is simply trying to avoid the legitimate question of why the middle infield has been a huge issue all season. As I said on the other thread, I think he has some reasonable explanations for it, but Goins being a useful player isn't one of them.

"....Smoak is just tired. You can see it. He has never played this many games in a season. Gibbons didn't rest him much...."

It's worth noting here that Gibbons has explicitly said that he understands the importance of individual goals for his players.  He has said, for example, that Stroman wants to get 200 innings, and Smoak wants to get 40 home runs.  Those goals might seem unimportant or secondary to us as fans, but they're important for those players, who are seeking to establish themselves as top-tier players.  So, if they are battling to reach those personal goals, and the games are otherwise meaningless, Gibbons feels an obligation to help them reach those goals.  That is one of the main explanations, I think, for why Smoak continues to get so much playing time this month, even as his slash line is eroding and he seems perhaps tired.

Smoak even played during the All-Star break. Guy can't get a break.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/mark-shapiro-qa-part-2-minor-leagues-player-development/

part 2 of Shapiro interview

Nigel- was the question why the middle infield has been a huge issue all season even asked?

Of course it's been an issue- between Tulo and Travis constant injuries (plus their struggles this year even when healthy) and Goins and Barney's sub-replacement level play it's been awful. And he did acknowledge they need to find someone who can cover 2nd and SS.

what annoys me is that he thinks everyone is dumb enough to buy that goins schtick.

and now i suspect it has something to do wjth his clutchness and rbi, which i know Shapiro doesn't believe in, but is using anyways.

which gets me more upset because now I think that's why he signed morales even though he knew he wasn't good - but simply because he knew the dingers would keep us stupid fans happy.

No Shapiro wasn't asked that question. I think his motivations in saying something that he knows is totally ridiculous about Goins is, in part, to deflect any criticism that the FO might receive for having Goins on the roster in the first place or for not replacing him during the year. He's on the roster because they chose to use their assets in the offseason in other ways. That's probably defensible. However that choice blew up in their faces rather spectacularly. Those things happen in baseball. He should own it, not bs about it.

"which gets me more upset because now I think that's why he signed morales even though he knew he wasn't good - but simply because he knew the dingers would keep us stupid fans happy."

Yeah, right. Your hatred for the Shapiro front office continues to know no bounds going from the silly to the ludicrous and now into the absurd conspiracy theory. A GM of a baseball team signing a player to try fool the fans? What do you want? Shapiro to throw Goins under the bus and say "he sucks" in public?

He is not the only one Glevin. I don't think you are overstating it by referring to it as ludicrous.

I try to keep an even keel and see all sides of a
debate but in some cases it is simply impossible.

Maybe there should be a separate thread for FO haters
and venting. It's ok to criticize. I don't like everything the FO does. But having an axe to grind and making downright silly statements is becoming more than tiresome.

"A GM of a baseball team signing a player to try fool the fans?"

not sure that sounds as ridiculous as you wanted it to.

Ok guys. I'm out. Not sure what is even remotely ludicrous or ridiculous but you are entitled to you views and I have zero interest in harshing your vibe.

It's been a losing season after two successful ones, and now the bickering and finger-pointing has begun in earnest. At least it's not among the players, ( That we know of ) but just among the posters here. Honestly, you would think everybody had a share of the team with the amount of discord shown here lately. I'll be glad when the playoffs start and we can focus our collective angst on dissing the Red Sox and Yankees.

The power is real with Hernandez.

I'm trying not to get over-excited by a small sample size, but Hernandez certainly looks like the real deal. Speed, power, defence. If he's for real, the Jays get an upgrade at RF, and they can eliminate one position from their off-season shopping list, allowing them to concentrate their resources on the middle infield and rotation depth.

i actually question his speed/defense more than his power.

Like I said in the other thread, Shapiro was just damning Goins with faint praise by saying he's a great backup and maybe a starter. I've always been one of the top Goins haters and I don't have a problem with it.

Now, when he talks about a talented hitter with a faulty kinetic chain which causes hamstring injuries, is that Pearce? I suppose if Pearce comes to spring healthy there's a good chance he has a rebound year, but Pearce being 35 next year, that might be asking for much.

Whatever the results, Hernandez looks great doing it. Running hard, swinging hard and smiling happily.

Yeah, Hernandez is making that Liriano series of deals well worth it isn't he? He needs to learn to take a walk once in awhile but that can be worked on (seen a few here in TO improve from horrid to acceptable plus often once they work on the eye the offense improves further as they are swinging at better pitches). If he works out then between whatever he does from now on plus what Liriano did in 2016 the Jays look like massive winners by eating salary to get prospects.

Fingers crossed that the team keeps doing that. I loved both deals as Rogers making a few million more means nothing to me beyond how it impacts future Jay budgets.

Hmmm... thinking about that who is an overpaid player the Jays could eat the deal of (maybe sending our current DH back to cover some of the costs)? The worst deal right now is Albert Pujols signed through 2021 for $27/$28/$29/$30 million while producing negative WAR this year. He is a bit much - toss in Mike Trout and we're talking :) However to eat $114 mil you'd need a bushel of high end prospects (I put it at $10 mil per guy who belongs in the top 100) and I can't imagine anyone has 10 guys who they'd trade in order to clear out a nightmare contract.

So who is more realistic to look at?

Rays are always in a dumping mood but Longoria is the only guy there making over $10 mil after this season.

Miami comes next on the permanent dump mode: Stanton is the obvious one there but he'd be a tough one as his is a long long term deal. Wei-Yin Chen was OK when healthy but is owed $52 mil over the next 3 years on player options (ick) with a $16 mil vesting option for 2021. He is a lot like Liriano in the respect of having a big deal and not being worth it for the club he is on but those player options make it hard to know what he would be worth each way. 2 decent prospect or 1 great one would be nice. He'd become another 5th+ starter.

Martin Prado is a backup 3B now who hit for a 70 OPS+ but was over 100 the 5 seasons before this one. Owed $28.5 mil over the next 2 years he is a clear trade/release guy (give him spring to try to win a spot as a backup 3B/1B/DH or just hand him that slot and work him out in LF as well). Edinson Volquez is a good candidate too - injured most of this year but was an inning eater previously. Not a great pitcher by any stretch, more a Dickey type (6 IP, 3 R per start I'd expect) so he'd have value and is owed $13 mil for one year thus ideal for the Jays today.

Anyone able to think of other bad contracts that teams might want to give up a quality prospect to save themselves from it?

Hope a lot of you are going to Bautista's final day as a Jay in Toronto tomorrow. I'm in Thunder Bay so too far away to go to it. Hopefully he has a great game or at least a hit in his final PA.

I'll be there in spirit. In reality about 4000 km away.

Hopefully he has a great game or at least a hit in his final PA.

Or in any PA. He is looking absolutely lost at sea these days. His batting averages by month: 178, 317, 200, 162, 158, 194. I can't believe his game has cratered so thoroughly as what we've witnessed this season.

Here's hoping Ponce de Leon, or even Dominic Leone, can point him in the direction of the Fountain of Youth. A homerun tomorrow would be a nice touch.

So I was looking at our hitters ZIPS preseason WAR projections. Only 1 of our normal lineup will beat their projection.. Gonna start positive (Actual still has 8 games to count)

Player ZIPS, Actual, +/-

Smoak 0.2, 3.4, +3.2
Pillar 2.6, 2.1, -0.5
Martin 2.6, 1.8, -0.8
Pearce 1.5, 0.0, -1.5
Travis 2.5, 0.6, -1.9
Morales 1.2, -0.7, -1.9
Donaldson 6.3, 4.3, -2.0
Tulowitzki 2.8, 0.0, -2.8
Bautista 2.7, -0.3, -3.0

Total 22.4, 11.2, -11.2

Yeah, ideally he'd hit a bottom of the 9th home run to win it (walk off) and then retire on the spot. Sadly that only happens in movies and for Ted Williams.

Sadly that only happens in movies and for Ted Williams

Not putting Bautista in Williams' league as a hitter, but there are definite parallels! For those who haven't read John Updike's classic "Hub Fans Bid Kid Adieu", here it is: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1960/10/22/hub-fans-bid-kid-adieu.

And a bit of Smithsonian Channel of that last at bat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPy0ykNfews

I was at the game today.  The crowd was lethargic (perhaps because of the heat), and the Jays' defence was a bit ragged at the end. 

Teoscar Hernandez obviously has considerable power, but everything else about his game is a work-in-progress. His routes are almost always indirect, but today he was not alone.   He turns 25 next month. I'm ready for Urena to return to the starting lineup any time. 

I liked Lopez' bunt against the shift to get on base down 2.   I feel better with him at the plate against a RHP than I do with Morales.  The short benches of 2017 usually don't allow for a sometime DH/3rd catcher role, but if someone bucked the trend and went to more bats, he might have a better chance at a significant career in the Show.

The routes might have some to do with a RF playing LF. Ultimately, even with the bad routes, he still covers a lot of ground.

Hernandez is soon 25 and has enough holes in his game that stardom likely doesn't await. But he seems to have enough tools to become a competent, major league corner outfielder, maybe a 1-2 WAR player. And for just $500K.

And that alone should address one of the corner outfield problems heading into next season where improving on Bautista/Pearce/Carerra is not a high bar to clear. BBRef has the trio performing at below replacement level.

I'm glad to see Hernandez getting a chance.  He's young and energetic, and that is definitely a good thing.  In his major league career so far, he's hit ..244/.297/.469.  That seems to be a reasonable expectation for him given his minor league performance and age.  Fangraphs has him as exactly replacement level with that because of baserunning and fielding.  I don't seem him as a better player than Carrera at this point (BBRef has Carrera as an otherworldly bad -16 in 672 innings this year, or the equivalent of -32 for a season- Carrera has been bad, but not late-career Adam Dunn bad). 

He looks in control at the plate. He has good at-bats after good at-bats.

If that was Jose's last at-bat as Jay at Rogers, it is some how appropriate that he ended it kind of grumpy at an opposing player.

:)

Despite a hat, a beard and sunglasses, enough of his face poked through to reveal the emotions he was feeling. A very nice way to walk off the stage.

That was a great game.

What do you guys think of A's rookie catcher Bruce Maxwell taking a knee during the anthem?  I respect his choice- the first MLB player to do so.  As a fringy big-leaguer, it's gutsy - especially with Colin Kapernick still unsigned.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/a%E2%80%99s-bruce-maxwell-first-mlb-player-to-kneel-for-anthem/ar-AAsoEz1

it's fantastic, and dissappointing he's the only one.

I hadn't heard of him before yesterday, but I admire the hell out of Bruce Maxwell.  His followup per theScore:

"I was talking to my dad about this. Our fearless leader right now is expressing that it's OK to judge people by the color of their skin. It's OK to separate people by their differences. That's not OK," Maxwell told Jeff Passan of Yahoo Sports.

"There's not been one time Trump has tried to sit in our seat. He grew up in a bubble, a golden bubble. He's never tried to reach out and understand where African-Americans and Hispanics and Muslims are coming from. All he knows is what he's experienced, and that's life on a silver platter. That's a big thing for me."

Maxwell, who comes from a military family, will continue to kneel during anthems, saying if "things don't really change" his protest will continue into next season, as well.

"It might take a little while. Racism has been going on since this country was founded," Maxwell added.

"But stepping up and recognizing the fact that people in this country are being treated unjustly is a big problem when it comes to mankind, and I'm pretty sure people who died for this country fought so I could do this."

I support Maxwell also.

While Bruce Maxwell & NFL players gesture is understandable,unfortunately IMO it plays very nicely into Mr. Trump's hand - it's a variation of the old Nixon Southern strategy (apparently he listened well to Nixon advisor Roy Cohn) - Politicians in many countries continue to successfully play to the prejudices of the majority - Tribalism is alive and well in our "Civilized World." Sorry for the non-baseball comment

Cathal Kellyin today's The Globe and Mail:

Despite all the high-fiving on the left, Mr. Trump won this round. This is what he does – set people against each other.

How they react to his incitement isn't the point. It's chaos for chaos's sake. We've already seen this contagion affect the American polity and most of its cultural bulwarks. But those were already going sideways. Until recently, the NFL and NBA were stable institutions that promoted an idealized vision of American unity.

Now fully emboldened, Mr. Trump has turned his rhetorical cannons on the last thing that bound Americans of all political stripes – sports. And you can already see everyone rethinking which team they're on.

It is a sad situation that has led to this. I expect more and more players in all sports to sit/take a knee/whatever during the US anthem. I wonder what will happen during the NBA season after Trump acted like a 2 year old after one player said he wasn't going to go and disinvited all players from that team. I'm hopeful things get better and 45 focuses on actually running the USA instead of talking sports as the two should only cross minimally (ie: president throwing out first pitch of season, teams that win it all going to White House, that should be about it).

Trying to remember, but did Reagan or Bush Sr throw out the first pitch at a Jays game once? With Mulroney there as well? I think that happened once but I could be wrong. Have any prime ministers thrown out first pitches at Jays or Expos games? I'm positive Mulroney did but can't recall either Trudeau, Chretien, or Harper doing it - let alone the various short term PM's (Turner, Campbell, Martin). All probably trying to avoid the risk of being booed depending when in their runs it was as Canadians are far more likely to boo a PM than an American booing a president.

nah, trump is losing this one.

Less than 8% of the players are African Americans and there's a lot of pressure on them.
It's a lot different in the NFL and NBA.

Probably not an issue in the NHL, eh?

To John Northey's question: George W. Bush and Brian Mulroney threw out ceremonial pitches at opening day at the then Skydome in 1990.

Trump said last Friday," If a player doesn't stand for the national anthem then the son of a ( beep ) should be off the team." If I was an American I would be thoroughly ashamed to have this ignorant,crude buffoon as president.

Also regarding the Oakland player who kneeled, it is courageous to be the first in a sport to do this. This first guy in the NFL to do so, Colin Kaepernick, has been essentially blackballed this year despite having the talent to play.

uglyone, that's what most people thought before the last US election.

I have no idea how this will play out, but I support Bruce Maxwell and any other player who takes a knee.  

Thanks ISLAND BOY - glad my memory wasn't totally gone (at 48 it is a possibility). Bush & Mulroney eh? Easy to find on YouTube once you know it was those 2. Of course it was vs the Rangers (Bush Jr owned them then). Can't imagine Trump coming up here and doing that. Bush Sr and Mulroney had a very good relationship (via Reagan) and I doubt we'll see a PM and President that close again anytime soon. Now watch the next president be buddy buddy with Trudeau.

Applaud Maxwell for both what he did and how he did it. Nice touch also with Canha showing his support for Maxwell.

greenfrog, he won because dems weren't motivated to vote. this motivates.

Whether or not you guys like Trump's move is as irrelevant as whether someone in Texas likes Jose. Most of the NFL's audience hates the league "leadership" back. Trump knows it, and he's not too shy to flip the bat at them after he nails them - to the delight of their own fans (most of which are also his).

Trump won this round, and will win any future rounds with the NFL. The more they "resist," the more he wins and the more they lose an already-dropping TV and live audience.

How do you rise to any position of competence or authority and not see this obvious set up? Trump should send the NFL a Christmas basket for their contributions to his re-election campaign.

Anyone with any intelligence or competence must know that the only way to win is not to play. Which would be trivially easy to do.

The players have no rights to free expression, in public, on company time. None. Certainly not in ways that damage their employer's livelihood. The NFL cracked down on Dallas when they wanted to honor the 5 local police murdered by Black Lives Matter. But instead of enforcing similar standards, the NFL supported disrespecting the anthem. So, they chose to play the game they're in with Trump.

It's blitheringly stupid to expect politicians not to shoot at you when you step onto their field of play and make yourself a huge target. Baseball has a slightly different fan base, but they are not immune.

Trump has lost this round, and the round has barely begun.

the ideas that a) all nfl fans are on trump's side and b) this only effects nfl fans are both very wrong.

and given his flailing on twitter right now, donny knows it.

all this football twittering while puerto rico burns.

Before "political" comments get (legitimately) discouraged because this is a baseball forum... (But boy, I'm so glad sports and politics have now connected at such a high level!)

I was at the Mulroney-Bush opener. My boos for Bush might have been drowned out by those for Mulroney who was cratering in popular opinion by that time.

About PM's throwing out the first pitch, it's obviously not a Canadian tradition, but I wonder if Pearson ever did. The biggest baseball fan among Canadian PMs (he supposedly impressed JFK with his knowledge of baseball stats) & honourary chair of the Expos, he would have been an obvious choice.

Last... on a day when one of the two best hitters in Blue Jays history is celebrated, a shout out to the other: Carlos Delgado who had his own principled "take a knee" stance, about the political-propaganda use of "God Bless America" in stadiums, post-9/11.

With hope for a better future...

The truth is that donnie's supporr has cratered since the election. The most common word association trump voters use is "embarassing".

Trump finally saw his first uptick in popularity after striking a deal with the dems on hurricane funding.Only a tiny uptick but still an uptick. Voters responding well to bipartisanship and positive action.

but going back to this embarassing red meat idiocy will crater his support once again, and possibly for good this time.

Lester Pearson throw out the first pitch at the Montreal Expos inaugural home game. By the way, I'm not a know-it-all but just saw it when I Googled about the Bush/Mulroney first pitches. I couldn't find out if any other Prime Ministers ever did a ceremonial first pitch.

I've always thought that playing the national anthem at non national sporting events is stupid. I fully support these players and I suspect most Canadians do. I think sports often reflect society. When baseball was king, it was about the individualism of American society. The bad was also mirrored. Segregation, worker exploitation, etc...The NFL mirrors modern American society much better. Hyper-violence, socialism for the rich, worker exploitation, etc...

The players have no rights to free expression, in public, on company time.

They may not have rights, but the employer sets the rules, not POTUS. If an employer allows workers to wear Trump hats to work, they can wear Trump hats. If an employer allows workers to kneel for the anthem, they can kneel.

The players have no rights to free expression, in public, on company time. They may not have rights, but the employer sets the rules, not POTUS. If an employer allows workers to wear Trump hats to work, they can wear Trump hats. If an employer allows workers to kneel for the anthem, they can kneel.

When Gibbons made his inane comment about players wearing dresses a year ago, Shapiro indicated that he was of the view that Gibbons' comments were protected by his right of free expression.  Whatever.

Carlos Delgado was involved both in quiet Iraq War protests and in the movement to end US military testing in Puerto Rico.  I wonder how Puerto Rican ballplayers feel about the lack of US government help cleaning up from the hurricane devastation there.  I can imagine that there might be a lot of anger.

Billy Hamilton, in case you missed it.

"company time" is a weird way to phrase it.

Are the players paid to stand for the anthem? Is this in their contracts? Does kneeling for the anthem take away from company time? If they wore special coloured shoes or ribbons or stickers in honour of black kids killed by police would this infringe on "company time"?

As for why they do anthems at sporting events, it's always been to drum up war support. It first started (organically: http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/6957582/the-history-national-anthem-sports-espn-magazine) during WWI), and became the rule for all mlb teams in WWII.

of course, this has been taken to a whole new level of "Paid Patriotism" in recent years, with congress budgeting millions for military demonstrations at sporting events in order to drum up recruitment and support for war: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/11/05/454834662/pentagon-paid-sports-teams-millions-for-paid-patriotism-events.

I would like to see speed on our rebuilding OF. SBs and great defense.
Devon White had a good combination. He is the hitting coach of Buffalo.
Next year he will have Smith Jr, Alford, Pompey and Fields. Smith is the only one without above average speed and defense.
I want to try to construct a V good playoff team. Getting in is not easy but a lot easier with the 2nd WC. Nobody can hit good pitching if you get it in the playoffs from your best starters. Good defense will prevent cheap outs.

Ricky Henderson proved how he could disrupt a team with his constant SB threat.

Strangely, I have admired Bautista's "ninth inning" in Toronto more than all of the others.  He is obviously not the hitter that he was, but he has put in an excellent effort running the bases and in the field at all times.  It's a good example for players like Hernandez. 

Strangely, I have admired Bautista's "ninth inning" in Toronto more than all of the others. He is obviously not the hitter that he was, but he has put in an excellent effort running the bases and in the field at all times. It's a good example for players like Hernandez.

I do love the fact that he got his uniform dirty yesterday.

He's still optimistic about returning to Toronto per a quick comment in his post-game interview with Hazel Mae.

I don't think there's any chance at all that he returns. The organization can move on without a PR hit. Bautista's numbers made that permissible.

Based on projected value and projected price, a bautista signing would probably be right up Shapiro's alley, tbh.

A cheap utility player who comes off the bench and covers RF/LF/3B/1B/DH is pretty much the only role left for Bautista in the bigs, and even then he wouldn't be that valuable if he's not hitting. He is not going to get an everyday gig. I think it is clear that yesterday was his farewell. They did not want him back last winter and that was when he was coming off a much better season. Will he take a massive paycut to be a bench player? Maybe on another team if he really wanted to continue playing, but I can't see that happening in Toronto.

I thought the curtain call and celebration of Jose yesterday was classy all the way around. Other players are going to look at that positively.

It would be nice if there was a role for Bautista in Toronto after he retires.  He's a smart man and he knows an awful lot about hitting. 

Bautista always put up excellent effort running the bases, sure, but his aggressiveness was often the result of very poor decision making, and yesterday's attempt at scoring from first on a (Morales) single with no outs was a great example of that. It made for great theatre, and he was probably being waved home by Rivera, but it's the kind of mistake we've seen often from Jose. I wish I understood the rules about the catcher blocking the plate, because based on the review in the stadium it looked to me like the catcher stuck his foot in front of the plate and that it wasn't a result of the throw taking him there.

It was a fun, albeit excruciatingly hot and sunny, day at the ballpark saying goodbye to a Blue Jays legend.

A few years ago, Jose often did not run out ground balls including some double play balls.  It used to drive me crazy.  I don't  care if a player jogs down to first base on a pop-up (In time to make it there if the pop-up is by chance dropped), but ground balls are a different story because of the potential to reach on a small bobble which happens often enough. 

Bautista likely projects next year about exactly how Pearce projected coming into this year.

ZIPS had Pearce projected for 1.5 WAR. Now, maybe ZIPS will project Jose close to that, but is there anyone here who thinks he'll come close to that? Not me.

that's the whole idea of buying low, isn't it?

So Grilli and J. P. Howell are buy low candidates also.

they were both buy low guys when we picked them up, yep.

like liriano. like smith. etc.

If Bautista was willing to sign for $1-2 mil then maybe the Jays consider it if Morales can be traded but that is about it. He'd have to accept DH mainly with some time in RF/3B/1B depending on injury situations. It'd be a sad end to his career here though if he did come back for that. Best he retires and comes back as a coach after a year or two. Maybe a part time coach immediately for the minor leaguers ala what the Jays have done with many former players.

In what was supposed to be year 1 of his 5-year, 150MM contract, it would be hard to see his pride allow him to come back as a 1-2MM scrub.

Shapiro and Atkins should know that I am not burdened by such pride.

"year 1 of his 5-year, 150MM contract"

Could you imagine if the Jays had given him that. Feelings might not be quite so warm right about now...

MLBTR predicted 3/51 for Jose. He really should just enjoy retirement. Shapiro ended up gifting him $18 million to help make up a nice chunk of the surplus value he gave us in his extension.

And even if the Jays somehow manage to dump the Morales deal, the team needs speed and defence to fill the roster gaps.

For speed and defence, the club is not likely to do better than Alford...

Lost in all the Bautista hype was the fact that Teoscar Hernandez hit three bombs on the weekend to put a lid on any chance of Jose returning.

Other than batflips, glares, strikeouts, and maybe walks, I can't see anywhere that Bautista is likely to outperform Hernandez who is now hitting (in a small sample size) .306/ .346/ .653 vs righties.

Hernandez' 3 home runs were all no-doubters, and his bomb off Gray was the 2nd longest HR of the week (trailing Judge's blast off Estrada on Friday).  All 3 homers left the bat at about 110 mph. 

Even with the low walk rate, I feel better about Hernandez's September this year (and his ability to contribute next year) than I did about Pompey's September a few years ago.

I don't, gf.  Pompey had a broader base of skills, a much better minor league record, and was 3 years younger.  It hasn't worked out for him due to injuries.  The biggest single advantage Hernandez has on Pompey is durability.  It's a big one. 

I think that what Hernandez did accomplish in the minors was to show that he could learn and improve on his shortcomings. This was what particularly attracted the Jays. I think that he deserves an opportunity next year. He has already shown in the last 2 weeks that he can cut down his chase rate or so it appears to me

I believe that he has 2 option years remaining but am not certain. If so, this may work against him at the beginning of the season.

In his lengthy SN interview recently, Mark Shapiro mentioned Pompey in the same sentence as Alford and Hernandez, which to me is a positive indication that Pompey has recovered from his injuries and should be healthy next spring.  It's interesting that Shapiro grouped those three together in the same thought -- suggesting that now they are all roughly at a similar stage of development and long-term potential (although Hernandez probably has the edge at this point).  Here is how he phrased it:

When you throw in with Anthony (Alford), Teoscar (Hernandez) and Dalton (Pompey), you say from those three, we should find one or two guys that can help us win in some way, whether it’s at the outset or during the year. That doesn’t feel like it’s too much of a stretch.

And before anyone jumps on me, I'm not saying that Hernandez necessarily has more long-term potential than Alford.  I'm just saying that he's closer to a full-time major league job than Alford.   To me the interesting aspect of Shapiro's remark is that he ranks them all (Hernandez, Alford, Pompey) in the same thought as potential contributors in the 2018 season.

"year 1 of his 5-year, 150MM contract"

So is Rogers cheap? or smart? maybe both?

"So is Rogers cheap? or smart? maybe both?"

You forgot "lucky"

I believe when Jose made his salary remarks he was coming off 160 wRC+/6.3 fWAR and 148 wRC+/4.5 fWAR seasons.

After last years 122 wRC+/1.4 fWAR, it was rather evident to all he wouldn't come anywhere close to either the AAV or the term.

"When you throw in with Anthony (Alford), Teoscar (Hernandez) and Dalton (Pompey), you say from those three, we should find one or two guys that can help us win in some way, whether it’s at the outset or during the year. That doesn’t feel like it’s too much of a stretch."


Hey I finally agree with shapiro on something!

"Even with the low walk rate, I feel better about Hernandez's September this year (and his ability to contribute next year) than I did about Pompey's September a few years ago."

really? why?

pompey was 3 years younger, with better milb numbers, and that september showed better defense, more walks, less strikeouts, lower babip, and hit for power too.

Last trump comment. Just to say that this is not what winning looks like: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/912443607084404736

Right now I'd rate it as Alford the best shot at long term stardom, Hernandez as the most likely to be there in 2018, and Pompey with the best shot at 10+ years as a backup but rarely a regular (speed & defense getting him job after job ala Rajai Davis who has speed and decent defense even now at 36 but only cracked 500 PA once. 4 other times in the 400's in his 12 year career)

pompey put up much better numbers than alford at that age, too.

There are some stats in which Hernandez v. 2017 comes out ahead of Pompey v. 2014:

Pompey: 105 wRC+ / 0.2 fWAR/ .205 ISO
Hernandez: 127 wRC+ / 0.4 fWAR / .313 ISO

Of course, Hernandez is older (almost 25) than Pompey was in 2014 -- admittedly a big difference between the two players. I liked the speed and defense that Pompey showed in 2014 (he made an incredible running catch of a deep drive that September), although his defense appears to have fallen off since then, if you believe the scouting reports. Like many, I was dazzled by Pompey's meteoric rise through the minors in 2014. But I was less impressed with his hitting when I saw him play that September. Part of that may well have been eye-test bias on my part.

I think it was very nice of Shapiro to mention Pompey in that spot. He's not on prospect lists anymore and didn't get a lot of positive press this year.