Well, here's hoping my VPN-based "avoid the blackout" workaround for MLB.TV (I am a subscriber) is working. Got it set to go through Toronto.. Every once in a while, they're not quite syncing up the "don't show any pregame" part, and I see a quick glimpse of the field..

Go Jays!

Allright - HERE WE GO!

please please please just DO IT.

Magpie? We're going with Magpie in this situation?

All right then!

Do it for CANADA.

10' tall Stroman tonight.

crowd is doing us proud already.

sharp biting strikes all on the edges. keep that up and i don't care who is at the plate.

Patience, gentlemen, patience.

some good pitches to hit there.

My goodness. Tillman made 3 mistakes to Travis and got away with all of them. Donaldson has a horrible at bat. Edwin gets beat on a fastball. Not the start we needed.

Longer this game goes tight, the more the advantage shifts to the O's.

Stroman can't find the range on his slider yet.

On the positive side, Stroman looks incredible so far. Cederstrom also looks like he's calling the low strike and the corners, which is great news.

stro not giving them much to hit yet.

Time to start centering up some balls.

joey is and always will be the man.

You knew he was going to do that.

Hip, hip, Bautista.

Who else? Really, who else?

Tillman is not sharp tonight. The Jays have to step on his throat here.

Not sure Trumbo would have caught that.

BS strike call on Saunders.....but if the ump is generous with that corner it's great news for stro.

Stroman looking really sharp so far.

That's a tidy 1st time thru. One more time (at least), stro.

I timed the last TV commercial break at 2 minutes, 30 seconds (mid-3rd inning).

I timed the last TV commercial break at 2 minutes, 30 seconds (mid-3rd inning).

Yeah, during the playoffs they add 30 or 60 seconds..

I hoped they'd have more than 1 run off Tillman through 3.

Pillar and Travis both miss pitches, there. Jays hitters (outside of Bautista) seem caught in between trying to pull the ball and going the other way. Some weird swings at pitches that are hittable.

Get Liriano up.

weird swings is a good description.

I can't handle this.

Supa-man flies again!

YES

That's a great play by Bautista as well to back away from that play or it could have been ugly.

I can't handle this

Gotta say - these TBS announcers have me wishing for Pat & Buck..

Got about three innings to get the lead back here.

Yep, agreed. I'd say even a tie or one run game in our favor we are still disadvantaged because of that O's pen.

1 hit.

Martin's bat has been ice cold for a couple of weeks now. I don't know why Tulo is not hitting fifth.

I think between players being injured and players pressing to try to do too much it's led to some odd hitting patterns. They need to let the game come to them,

Beautiful D by Tulo.

well, the D showed up at least.

They're squaring Stroman up pretty good now.

This has been the hitting pattern for a while now. Without Donaldson, Encarnacion and Martin, this team will not go far.

Bourn has outplayed 8 Jays tonight.

I wonder if they let Stroman go another inning.

normally i wouldn't take out stro on 72 pitches but i guess this is where you bring in liriano.

I'd definitely take Stroman out now.

Two good teams. Too bad one has to lose.

Yep. That'd be it for Stroman if I was manager. Did OK for 5 other than the 2 run HR. He seems to be tiring and his stats for 3rd time through the order are poor (284/321/525) so that'd be it.

get. this. run. in.

Good idea. Leave Bourn alone and pick on Kim.

oh we have to capitalize on that mistake. have to.

I was going to work in a Bourn Supremacy allusion... but never mind.

finally they're hitting these meatballs.

Bottom of order again. Go Zeke!

Saunders actually scored from third on a single. I was worried it might take another double.

Now at least a sac from Devon.. PLEASE...

I'm pretty sure Saunders thought he caught that ball - from his angle it would have been hard to see.

The DP has been the Jays weakness this year.

From his angle, he probably had a really good view of the third base coach.

Ouch painful double play by Travis there. Yup they're leading the league in that.

Wouldn't you go up thinking, "Anything but a double play"?

pillar not scoring on that single might have been a worse mistake, really.

Wouldn't you go up thinking, "Anything but a double play"?

Which then fixates your brain on the keyword "double play" :-)

How on earth did Pillar of all guys not score on that single? That was the killer. Saunders brain fart hurt, but was saved. If the Jays lose by 1 or go to extras Pillar's baserunning screwup will be the difference.

Stroman staying in...

Travis didn't play in the playoffs last season. He might have been too jacked up for that at-bat. It could be the biggest play of the game.

Stroman still battling. Is Lariano warming?

Pillar probably had to hold up to make sure Saunders was going to advance.

Pillar took a step back to second when the ball was hit. Thats why he didn't score, although it would have been tough when the ball was just in front of Jones.

hell he's only at 80 pitches. let him ride.

That's twice Stroman's forgotten what he's supposed to do after the ball was put in play. Got away with it both times.

You've gotta go to the pen now

Too many mental errors. Why does this team play like that? They are very highly skilled but asleep at the wheel.

let's remember that our pen kinda sucks.

With Pillar and Carrera on and the infield in dp position Travis might have squeezed. I think Gibbons has done that exactly once this year.

This team is frustrating and fun aren't they?

Seems to me that Gibbons is managing just like he would a regular season game to this point. Hopefully he won't learn the hard way that the playoffs are different. You do a lot of short term moves that will piss off players to increase your odds. Cito learned after 1989 and 1991 - as I recall he managed 92 and 93 very differently and that was a big part of the success those years.

Donaldson did not look like an MVP in that at-bat.

Wow! 0-15 for Donaldson, Encarnacion and Batista against Givens.

Wow did Donaldson just get overmatched. Yikes.

The heart of this lineup is awful right now.

Quick inning! Let's get to the bottom of the order where the hits are.

5 outs on 14 pitches. Givens will probably stay in to face Martin and Tulo. Looked downright nasty that inning. 3rd run will be tough off this pen.

Easier to mute Buck when he only speaks every 3 innings.

Jays pen vs Orioles pen now.

Great scoop, Edwin!

The D really has been great tonight.

after all the fan and media tantrums...... gibbons in the end is going to get ripped for PULLING STRO TOO EARLY!!

For what is he saving Lariano?

Notice that in the scoring inning, the Jays' hits were all up the middle and to the opposite field. Travis's DP ball was pulled.

Nothing coming out but a backwards "K"

Giuseppe!

Hell of an inning for Biagini.

For what is he saving Liriano?

The next Chris Davis AB, I presume. At any rate, I don't think Loup will be his first choice.

Come on guys. Don't let that be the end of your scoring for the year.

Incredible outing by Givens, though Martin smoked that ball.

We'll see Loup in he 14th inning.

Glad to see him go! Man, we couldn't touch him.

Showalter has played this perfectly. I'm just waiting for the hammer to come down from their lineup; terrible feeling assuming our hitters will just hack away.

Is BJ due?

Jays have plenty of pitchers to go deep. If this game goes into extras and they lose only scoring two I don't think anyone is going to be talking about pitching. How about the 1/18 from the top six of the lineup?

Get a walk here Upton.

I liked Saunder's chances better than Upton's.

Nervous about Grilli's inning.

A lot of good moves by Showalter.

idiots.

Toronto fans showing their class yet again.

Thanks for nothing, stupid fans..

How about the 1/18 from the top six of the lineup?

Now, now. They're really 1-17 (Bautista's 1-2 with a BB). Not nearly as bad.

OK, arrest that s.o.b. and ban him from the ballpark forever.

One putz will make the whole city look bad. Hope they identify him and turf him.

Nervous about Grilli's inning.

I'm hoping they stick with Biagini...

That sure looked good off the bat. Brach and Britton, potentially for 3. Might be tough to score until the 11th. Need the pen to stay effective.

Concur with Magpie and Chuck. 

I thought that was a homerun off the bat.

I was hoping for a televised perp walk.

they're gonna have to ban beer at the dome i think.

Shows what I know. Tight slider, nice fight back from 3-0 against Kim.

Brilliant job by Grilli.

nice nice nice.

and now osuna doesn't have to face Kim.

And CBC is postponing their Kims until Toronto has dispatched Baltimore's Kim.

Just get on, somehow. Doesn't matter how.

zeke rules

Should Zeke steal? No idea how Brach holds runners. Gotta score here, Britton is as automatic as it gets.

not a playoff debut to remember for travis.

Oh Lord, Travis.

0-2 is a good count to steal, I would have sent him. Another tough DP.

would enjoy it if the meat got to britton specifically.

NOW the the top of the order is 1-18 (and responsible for 19 outs).

They're gonna have to walk it off, somehow, someway.

Travis has accounted for 25% of the team's outs, 6 out of 24.

Maybe someone in the middle can run into one.

Big, big out for Osuna.

They tend to run into one into the ground. Hope a few get through. I hope they run up his pitch count so he can only go 1.

osuna gets the glengarry leads.

That one was for Alex. The delay NOT followed by a fastball! The reverse tell.

Now I know why they call it the nervous ninth.

Walk-off postseason "series" win would be pretty sweet. Make. It. Happen.

Osuna comes back for the 10th? If Upton doesn't homer, I mean.

Wow.. Awesome.. Now just need ONE...

Three great hitters coming up. Let's do this!

wow.

no britton for the meat.

buck may have wanted to show some "loyalty" to his closer, methinks.

Time for another bat flip?

Pinch-run Pompey for Donaldson?

Three men on the left side and no one guarding the line. Thank you Buck.

Interesting O'Day, not Britton. Thanks, Buck. Hope Russ can get one down somewhere.

Did Bautista really think he was getting a fastball?

I'm thinking base hit to right or right-centre.

yikes

Yikes is right. Now what? Osuna for another inning?

Un Be Lievable

Oooh. Death knell!

That is pretty pathetic right there.

Doesn't look good here, folks.

Boy does that hurt. 6 pitches and no runners advance after 1st/2nd. Ouch.

The Jays had to manufacture a run in that imning somehow.

I think I might have had Bautista sacrifice bunt..

oh no

We're still alive. Damp pits. Osuna could get us to Lariano. Showalter has made the right moves. Two first pitch DPs.

Oh crap. If he's injured, then it doesn't matter if we win..

Well now Liriano's in the game.

Man!! Hope he is okay.

At the game...what happened to Osuna???

Osuna grimaced after a pitch.

i don't like the way osuna's arm was hanging.

At the game...what happened to Osuna???

Nothing definite on the TBS broadcast.. Just that EE called the coaching staff out..

No way to know. Announcers don't know more than us watching. He didn't seem to favor anything at any time. He winced a bit after the second to last pitch.

1&2 and no out we have to get a run. :(

Upton's going to homer off Britton. Just for uglyone.

Last year lost Cecil early on, lets hope Osuna recovers quickly. Full credit to Gibbons for not taking any risks there and pulling Osuna quickly.

Any idea when Benoit might be ready? Probably not until the ALCS.

Or not Britton.

Everyone's messing with my narrative.

i like the DH usage today.

Good call to PH Smoak.

Osuna has already had a heavy workload this year, especially recently, and Gibbons used him for two-inning stints Sunday and today. I guess it finally caught up with him.

just want to say that this is one hell of a ballgame.

Umpie has had a very good day. Not too many misses.

Agree, Chuck, very little to truly complain about. And agree, ugly, one hell of a game. Hope we like the outcome.

Ladies and gentlemen, your 2017 first baseman.

I would say that, win or lose, Gibby's done a pretty good job today. Showalter might have been a bit better, but overall, I think Gibby's hung in there..

For a month and half, Chuck.  Then we get rowdy.

Easier to take a loss when the game is well played. Enjoyable game.

only 14 pitches for oday. they may squeeze another inning out of him.

keep on scoring, geddy, keep on scoring.

Naw, it'll be Britton for 2 innings. Imagine losing in 11 inings without using him?

Liriano *dealing*. Now let's win this.

Holy batman does Liriano look sharp. Spotting fastball at 96/97, beautifully placed changeups. Wow.

Yeah, he might have to be our new closer, if Osuna needs rest..

Did they put Britton on their roster?

Osuna's been telling reporters he's been careful lately about not over-using his slider because it's tough on his elbow. The slider being a notorious Destroyer of Elbows and Osuna's having already been under the knife.

Liriano is looking untouchable. Great job by the bullpen so far.

What is Showalter doing???

Guess Buck is sticking with the rigid closer role. Sure hope it backfires.

bizarre by Buck.

if gibbons did this he's be crucified.

Is Britton a dead parrot? Has he ceased to be? Has he expired?

Britton has looked vaguely annoyed, sitting in his chair with his glove on, probably wondering why he's not warming for real.

This could be a long off-season of second guessing for Showalter if Britton doesn't make it into this game.

ubaldo jimenez instead of zach britton.

NEVER complain about Gibbons' bullpen management ever again.

This has to happen here.

BOOM BABY

Bad Ubaldo is back!

Edwin's overdue.

Woo-hoo!!!

Wooooo!!!!!!

Not. Any. More.

So Liriano gets the win, just the way everyone wanted.

Wouldn't you know it, I left for 2 minutes to help my kids look for a lost toy.. WOOHOO!

Yeah Odor, we're looking at you.

Let it be known that today John Gibbons totally outmanaged Buck Showalter.

Let us remember this moment when we wish we had a manager like Buck.

That was friggin awesome.

Unreal. What a win. See you Thursday afternoon!

Jays vs Texas rematch: There Will Be Blood

Never mind your kid's toy, you should have helped Showalter look for his closer. "I know I put him on the plane. Now where is he?"

What a great game. People will remember this one for a long time. Surprised they didn't walk Eddie there - I guess they were afraid of a bases loaded walk. Also glad they saved Britton for the save. Texas series should be a lot of fun.

We might want to consider signing Joey and EE. Just a thought.

I don't understand why you save Britton for the save.

Stroman was great. He really delivered.

Liriano was dealing. Starting him would not have been a bad choice and of course he picks up the win.

I think this game will be remembered for a 3 run bomb but  a sac fly would have won it there.

Worried about Osuna, now. Still we have depth. Liriano can be saved for extra innings or pitch the 8th or 7th, depending on the matchups and of course, Biagini can pitch in every games.

Woohoo! 

Can't believe we didn't see Britton that game.

Joey started it, and Edwin finished it!

This one will go down in history as one of the great Jays games. What a moment for Edwin. This was a team victory, though.

Oh! That feels so good. Thanks Buck! Keep that closer in the pen.

Edwin just got an extra $5-10M for his next contract..

This one will go down in history as one of the great Jays games.

Yes indeed. Tremendous work by the bullpen. The bullpen! And Liriano beats Jimenez, which was the matchup that lots of us expected. Go figure.

Game filled out my I told you so checklist nicely:


1. Stroman rules
2. Gibby outmanaged the hell out of Buck
3. Ubaldo proves why "riding the hot hand" is dumb baseball
4. Pay Joey and EE all the moneys


But for me, I feel like this is just us finally clinching a playoff spot.

playoffs start Thursday.

Don't forget about Travis and Donaldson, setting the stage for Encarnacion's blast.

I hope nobody remember that can that was thrown at Kim. Some stupidity there.
Let's show the US how classless Canadians are.

Michael Bourn made some nice plays, but I'm sure Upton can make all those too.

It's really weird when Carrera carries the offense.

Osuna looked good opening champagne, can't imagine it is too serious if he isn't with the medical staff (praying to Jobu).

This was an amazing game, I wonder how much of it was not having to listen to Buck and Pat.

Baltimore's David Simon, creator of "The Wire", just tweeted this:

Where's Britton, String? Where's Britton?

Buck just confirmed that Britton was not injured.

Osuna sounds fine and happy.

O's fans were yearning for Britton, but instead they got Brexit.

Edwin: "that's why i wanna come back here cause of what happened tongiht!"

I'm sorry, EE.

I think Liriano just earned himself a spot on the playoff roster, if it was ever in doubt.  It will be hard to leave him off after this.  He looks just as good from the bullpen as he does in the rotation. 

Wow, amazing game. Stroman was very good (glad to be wrong there), the bullpen came up huge, and Showalter did the Jays a few favor by not bringing in Britton.

What can you say about Edwin. Huge HR, one that will be replayed for a long time.

Just a great game. I knew the Baseball God's wanted Toronto/Texas II.

Magpie? We're going with Magpie in this situation?

Hey! Hey! Two out of three in Fenway this weekend? This game tonight?

Clearly, my Mojo was saving itself for October. I admit, I wish I'd known that sooner.

Great Game - I can't believe Showalter lost the game without using the best closer in the game - I bet he's going to hear it from Orioles fans & deservedly so - also with Bautista's terrible numbers against Jimenez, I was sure the Orioles were going to walk EE.

Just before Travis single, I was thinking what a terrible night he was having - 2 double plays & waiting on Hardy's grounder that nearly became an infield single.

With their starting rotation depth, the Jays are better suited to play a series instead of a 1 game elimination.

I hope that classless drunk who threw that beer at Kim gets prosecuted & shamed - just a despicable act that could have caused serious damage and a real black eye for Toronto.

Travis did have a bad night until the final inning, but that was some pretty sharp base running to go 1st to 3rd and put it in to a position where a sac fly wins it.

Showalter not using Britton in a one game sudden death situation is a fireable offense. I'm glad he did it, but every bit of criticism he gets for it for the next day (and weeks/months) will be 100% deserved. Completely boneheaded move being a slave to the closer role/save in that situation.

Liriano looked filthy out of the pen, too. He'll be an asset on the playoff roster in some capacity.

Who says starting rotation depth doesn't help in a 1-game elimination?

Fun stuff. Yes kids, this is what playoff baseball is. Enjoy as you never know when a multi-year break will occur. I know after Carter's home run we never dreamed it'd be over 20 years.

Good news is we know the Jays got the bucks to sign whoever they want this winter. Lets hope Edwin can be kept at a reasonable price (ie: that whenever his bat slows it won't be a killer) or if he leaves he gets insane dollars/years from someone where we go 'thanks for the memories, enjoy the bankroll'.

Jeez, Bautista must be really excited. Normally his English has practically no accent at all.

A true team win - bit of a cliche, but everyone in the lineup (except the two pinch-hitters, of course) contributed somehow.

Top headline on ESPN baseball: "Jays fan hurls drink at O's Kim as he catches ball"

Sigh...

Baltimore's David Simon, creator of "The Wire", just tweeted this: Where's Britton, String?

I don't believe that.

Ubaldo's last three pitches, single, single, home run.

Buck came out after the second single to talk to the pitcher and infielders. The smartest man in baseball must have spoken wisely.

Great win, although puzzled by this insistence to pay lots of money for aging sluggers. Do you expect them to get any better next year?

It was great to hear Osuna say he's OK. Liriano looked terrific as a late inning reliever - that shores up a potential weak spot. Texas has a few guys whose career splits show they are vastly weaker against lefties - Moreland, Choo, Profar and Mazara lose a lot vs lefties, Odor a little. Liriano could play a key role. I imagine we'll see the rotation announced tomorrow.

Gotta say, the starter choices were the right ones in the end. Seeing the alternates used in extras was great, especially when Liriano was smoking and Jimenez was smoked. In an alternate reality the Jays win going away by something like 10-0 thanks to Jimenez getting slaughtered and Liriano dealing from pitch 1.

Not saying don't bring one of them back, I'd be fine with it, heck even a couple of them provided the contract is short. But as exciting as the 11th was the first ten innings also happened. This game should have been over long ago. Will be interesting to see how this Texas series goes down. Cool to have a rematch.

Anyway sorry to bring offseason stuff into this. Let's just enjoy the ride. We'll see later on who'll be back next year, but got Texas to beat first.

I absolutely loved that Gibbons took out Stroman when he did. I usually clamor for a pitcher to be removed a little early rather than leaving him in until there's danger, and I was shocked that Gibby would take him out after just 81 pitches. But absolutely, you got 6 good innings out of him, don't push it. I was very surprised and pleased.

The pen ended up pitching 5 no-hit innings and nobody was really overworked. Just fantastic stuff.

As for Buck, yeah that was dumb but we should be used to that by now. Every manager does this and I'm not convinced Gibby wouldn't have done it were he on the road. Thank goodness we won that last game and got home field!!

It would be great if Benoit made it back at some point this postseason.

I don't believe that.

Behold!

Every manager does this

True. And here's what really interesting. On July 31 of this very year, Showalter brought Britton to pitch the 9th inning. In a 2-2 tie. Against the Blue Jays. In Toronto. He gave them two scoreless innings and the Orioles ended up winning in the 12 when the Jays went to Franklin Morales and Jesse Chavez.

"I'm not convinced Gibby wouldn't have done it were he on the road"

Actually, Gibbons did not do that on the road in 2015 ALCS Game 6.  He brought in Osuna in the 8th with the score tied 3-3.  The plan reportedly was to use Stroman if the game went to extras, i.e., apparently much like tonight's plan at home except tonight it was Liriano in reserve after the "trusted" relievers were used.  (Which is how starting rotation depth helps you in 1-game elimination, despite reports to the contrary.)

The most amusing part of the evening for me was Carrera coming out with the parrot muppet to receive the Ed-wing.

It's insane that the next series is against Texas. The whole 2-0 comeback and 7th inning and batflip drama followed up by the brawl and Odor/JBats assault, redux.

You have to admit, Bauxites, that the past two seasons have been pretty incredible, with more lows and highs and more lows and highs than the previous 2 decades put together, but still the most fun since the Gillick dynasty years ended. I'm glad I'm old enough to remember those well, but still young enough that this 2015-2016 Jays squad isn't giving me an early-onset heart attack.

The iconic moment for me tonight was when Zeke went ran back to the dugout to get the (stuffed) parrot for the walk-off celebration... we'll see him with the parrot on his arm celebrating with Edwin at home plate for years to come.

I don't want to see Liriano used as a short reliever in multiple games.

You need someone good who can pitch a lot of innings in extra-inning games.  That typically comes up at least once a playoff series.  (This is why Buehrle should have been on the playoff roster last year.  To be used like Liriano was used tonight.)

^ Wow... great minds, think alike. But yeah, well said. So many iconic moments, and you just know there's going to be fireworks during the series with Texas.

Top three post-season OPS (minimum 50 plate appearances.)

1. Lou Gehrig    1.214 (1.21399)
2. Babe Ruth     1.214 (1.21369)
3. Jose Bautista 1.169

Fast company.

Oh, never mind. By the end of the game he was down to 1.120. The bum.

No doubt Cracka. I'm also reminded of a few short years ago when many of us (myself included) wanted the Jays to throw the chequebook at Jimenez. With the first pitch meatball down the middle to EE, it's almost like Ubaldo was on the payroll.

Just amazing. Obviously, I want the Jays to win it all, but losing the one-game playoff is a particularly bad way to go out. Texas is a dream matchup. So much bad blood in the last year. Bring it on!

What I remember from the brouhaha involving Bautista and Odor in May is that Texas had played 4 games in Toronto the previous week and then waited until the last game of the series in Texas to stir the pot by hitting Bautista with a pitch. I guess they figured that was the last game they'd see the Jays this year so they'd get revenge for ... someone hitting hitting an epic home run and being emotional? Well, surprise, the Jays are back and I'm sure they are fired up to get revenge of their own.( By beating them) I just hope it doesn't get ugly. ( No offense, UglyOne )

It's the following morning and I am still dumbfounded over the decision to not use Britton. Showalter is a smart manager, but he was too cute by half last night. You let Britton pitch 9-10 or 10-11 and then you go to the lesser pitchers. You don't wait for a save opportunity that becomes less and less likely the longer you wait for it.

I just cannot imagine the frustration Orioles fans must be feeling. Unless Britton was hurt (and he apparently wasn't), there was simply no excuse for that line of decision-making. What does a reasonable defense sound like?

Reasonable excuse? Uhm, well, according to Showalter in his glum post-game, Ubaldo pitched really, really well in his last start against the Jays. SSS baby.

Stephen - that is a nice luxury if you can afford it but liriano just likely filled a hole we've had all year - our #1 high lev lefty rp.

When I saw Buck come out of the dugout after Donaldson's hit in the 11th, I was positive that Britton was coming in to face Edwin. When that didn't happen, you got a sense of what was going to happen. The Orioles needed a DP in that situation badly, and decided not to use a reliever with an 80% GB%, instead opting to stick with Ubaldo. Very puzzling move. There was no guarantee that bringing Britton in would have won the O's the game, but it likely would have prolonged it, if nothing else. I guess as fans we just have to thank Buck for being so generous.

Looking ahead to the Texas series:  do the Jays stick to their existing rotation (and maximize the number of days of rest for each pitcher) by using Estrada in the first game, Happ in the second game and Sanchez in the third game?  Or do they decide to maximize the use of their (slightly) better pitchers, by opening with Happ (on normal rest) and then using Sanchez in the second game and Estrada in the third game? That would increase the chances of being able to use Happ and Sanchez twice in the series -- otherwise Sanchez might be used only once in the series.

Here's my stab at the roster for the Texas series:

Starters:  Happ, Sanchez, Estrada, Stroman
Starting lineup:  same as the Wild Card game
Bench:  Navarro, Barney, Smoak, Upton, Pompey
Bullpen:  Osuna, Grilli, Biagini, Cecil, Liriano (long man), Tepera, Loup.

This would mean that Goins and Feldman wouldn't be on the roster, but I think they are surplus, unless there's an injury.

Ubaldo pitched really, really well in his last start against the Jays.

I guess he had to say something. Someone should have suggested to him that Britton had pitched really, really well for 6 months against everybody.

Sometimes the right move is the obvious move. It doesn't detract from your cleverness to do the thing everyone expects you to do.

just remember than 90% of O's fans were already made at Buck for starting Tillman instead of..... Ubaldo.

I'd switch Estrada and Sanchez. I like the kids going at home....they really seem to get amped up in a good way. Put the vets in the road games. Sanchez still ready to relieve in game 5 if necessary.

Somewhat overlooked in all the excitement over Encarnacion's dramatic HR was the fact that Carrera had another great game and a crucial RBI that kept the Jays alive (and might have prevented a 2-1 loss).  He is still ideally a 4th OF and pinch-runner, but it's amazing how he has risen to the occasion in the most important weeks of the season.  Since the beginning of September, his slash line is .304/.353/.457 -- and that doesn't include his 2 key hits of last night.  He has basically relegated Upton to the bench. 

Carrera's salary this season:  $522,000.  
Upton's salary this season:  $15.5-million.

Most of Upton's salary is not being paid by the Jays, of course, but it's still interesting to see the bargain-basement journeyman beating out the highly-paid veteran for a starting job.

Months ago the plan floated out there was to pitch Sanchez once in each series (as required), as a part of the innings limits he's been running into. I can't imagine Osuna's general soreness makes them reconsider injury prevention decisions, but Osuna might be injured and/or ineffective going forward. That might change the calculus a little on Sanchez?

I'd hate to see the Jays run him into the ground, but I'd also hate to see them lose without using the best available guys. Tough decision I promise not to get too worked up over either way until something goes wrong ;)

I'm assuming that Osuna's admitted tiredness (and minor injury) helps to keep Liriano in the bullpen.  They could need him badly there, with Benoit also out.  Otherwise they might have been tempted to give Liriano one of the starts against Texas, but I don't think that's feasible now.

I don't think they will use Sanchez more than once per series for innings purposes, so I'm expecting Happ-Estrada-Sanchez-Stroman in that order for the ALDS. That's fine with me. The rotation has been strong all season.

He is still ideally a 4th OF and pinch-runner, but it's amazing how he has risen to the occasion in the most important weeks of the season.

There have been two Carreras this season: a BABIP-fueled very good one, and a BABIP-suppressed very bad one. I thought we'd seen the last of the former, but he seems to be back.

If I'm Smoak or Upton, I'm trying to find comfort in the millions committed to me knowing that I had all the power in the world to force my manager's hand into giving me more playing time, but flopped in my attempt.

The Jays are now 5-1 in postseason elimination games over the last two years!

If the Jays had lost the wild card game in extra innings without using Osuna, John Gibbons would have been fired. Showalter will likely be spared, since he is Buck E. Showalter, Super Genius. But I can't understand why he didn't bring Britton into the game at some point during the 11th, if not earlier. What the?

That was a fine team effort.  Much better discipline with the bats and excellent defence made them full value for the win. 

The look on Encarnacion's face when he called out Gibbons and the training staff to get Osuna spoke volumes.  I find his pain and joy much more relatable than Bautista's pride and hubris. It should be noted also that the O's intentionally walked Edwin to face Bautista after Donaldson's double.  At this point, he's clearly the better hitter.  Bautista is still (by the way) nosing out Carlos Beltran in post-season OPS but Beltran has almost 4 times the at-bats.

I just cannot imagine the frustration Orioles fans must be feeling. Unless Britton was hurt (and he apparently wasn't), there was simply no excuse for that line of decision-making. What does a reasonable defense sound like?

Presumably it's all about traditional roles- Britton comes on with a lead only on the road.  The idea being that no other mortal is capable of preserving a lead of 3 runs or less in a hostile environment.  I don't buy the defence.  I would have had Brach throw 2 innings and then Britton throw 2 innings and then sent out Ubaldo, if necessary.  It's funny because I admire Showalter for his (usual) flexibility.

there is no way they're going to get cute with Sanchez at this point. they did their 6 man rotation and demotions already. that's enough. they're not going to hold off their best SP this year like Buck did with Britton.

the good thing is that there's no reason to use any SP on short rest this year.

30th Estrada
1st Happ
2nd Sanchez
3rd off (Liriano)
4th WC stroman
5th off

6th ALDS #1 Happ (4 days)
7Th ALDS #2 Sanchez (4 days)
8th off
9th ALDS #3 Stroman (4 days)
10th ALDS #4 Estrada (10 days)
11th off
12th ALDS #5 Happ (5 days)
13th off
14th ALCS #1 Sanchez (6 days)
15th ALCS #2 Stroman (5 days)
16th off
17th ALCS #3 Happ (4 days)
18th ALCS #4 Estrada (7 days)
19th ALCS #5 Sanchez (4 days)
20th off
21st ALCS #6 Stroman (5 days)
22nd ALCS #7 Happ (4 days)
23rd off
24th off
25th WS #1 Sanchez (5 days)
26th WS #2 Stroman (4 days)
27th off
28th WS #3 Happ (5 days)
29th WS #4 Estrada (10 days)
30th WS #5 Sanchez (4 days)
31st off
1st WS #6 Stroman (5 days)
2nd WS #7 Happ (4 days)

"If I'm Smoak or Upton, I'm trying to find comfort in the millions committed to me knowing that I had all the power in the world to force my manager's hand into giving me more playing time, but flopped in my attempt."

Let's also give credit to Gibby for not just sticking with the likes of Smoak/Upton despite the front office choosing them.

And I mentioned it last night but I thought gibby's use of the DH spot was perfect last night.....even though I still wish our FO had gone out and nabbed an actual above average mlb bat at the deadline to fill that last spot.

It's just so fun in the everlasting RP usage debate that the guy with maybe the best bullpen managing rep in baseball still let the "closers in save situation" addiction kill him.

uglyone, I don't want to waste too much time talking about the swing-and-a-miss that is Melvin Jr., but it was reasonable to assume that based on his play in San Diego that Upton was "an actual above average mlb bat" as a deadline acquisition. According to parkfactors.com/SD Petco "is the most extreme pitcher's park in baseball today" -- and Upton did well there. And he came cheap.

IMHO, your expectation that Shapkins should bat 1000 or bust in mid-season acquisitions is unreasonable. The stabilization of the pen thanks to Grilli and now Liriano (plus the erstwhile 7th inning setup man Benoit) have more than offset the lack of production out of Upton (and Feldman on the long-man side of things).

Some thoughts on last night's game, in particular order:

Was pleasantly surprised to see the roof open.

Was stunned that Britton never pitched.

Yelled myself hoarse after the 2 home runs, and really, after every Jays hit (few as they were).

Disappointed in the loser that threw the beer can at Kim.

Impressed with all the pitchers.

Frustrated that the Jays kept whiffing on Tillman's 83 mph 'stuff'.

The more I remember, the closer I was to where Edwin's home run landed (I was above the 'J' on Joe Carter's Ring of Honour name). Pretty sure it wasn't as close as all that, though.

Is it Thursday afternoon yet?

I would have had Brach throw 2 innings and then Britton throw 2 innings and then sent out Ubaldo, if necessary.

You know, that was exactly what I thought we would see. Brach 8. Then Brach 9 if the game was still tied. Then Britton 10 and 11. And then everbody else in declining order of skill.

jj I think based on his last few years and based on what the padres paid to unload him that his flopping is no surprise.but you're right we don't need to argue this now.

Uglyone's troll game is strong the past 12 hours. He is reaching Sportsnet's comment section with the amount of shots taken at the front office for no reason, after a win of that magnitude no less.

I kind of wish Upton's warning track flyout was a game deciding home run now just to see the conflicted reaction he would have had.

didn't even reach the warning track, SK.

I wonder if Showalter was thrown off by the beer can incident.  The can did seem to have beer in it- if it had hit Kim in the head, he could have been injured.  Showalter is apparently obsessive about his players' health, going over the field with a fine tooth comb for seams before a game, and he did seem more outraged by the incident, even after the ball had been caught, than many managers would be (what precisely is an umpire supposed to do after that?)

I guess in the midst of your trolling you forgot what a warning track was. That's OK.

Moving on.

With Pillar and Carrera batting 8 and 9, and Travis being an excellent hit-and-run man, I hope Gibbons starts the runner next time the situation arises rather than having Travis attempt a bunt and then swinging away. 

Re-reading this thread in the morning is really fun. :) 

Brilliant foreshadowing, this. :D

SK, your high horse is a pony. Try to go one post without a snide inplication about our aged roster's closing window or gibby's incompetence before talking.

Only question marks in my mind are Tepera and Loup.  Could I see Gibbons wanting Goins instead of one of them?  Maybe.  Personally, I'd consider a 3rd catcher or another pinch runner.  There are 2 games, then a day off.  Bullpen wasn't overworked last night.  I'd be tempted to go with a 6 man bullpen, especially if you have Liriano there for length if necessary.

I didn't like the bunt attempt by Travis either.  Basically the only two Jays I think that should consider bunting in any situation are Pillar and Carrera, mostly because they are the only two that have really shown any competency in it.

I am a big fan of the atmosphere at the RC, and American media has definitely taken notice of how much of a home field advantage it is, but between the beer can that missed Kim's head last night and Game 5 last year, the passion needs to be controlled. Luckily it was just that isolated incident last night, but it was still pretty bad. The crowd noise is amazing; just keep all objects in the stands and not on the field.

obsessive about his players' health

There was another Baltimore manager who pulled his team off the field in Toronto and forfeited the game because he thought his players were at risk. In September, in a tight pennant race, with the Orioles 2 games back of the division lead.

The other thing I don't understand about Showalter's night - if you're going to leave Jimenez in, don't you have to walk Encarnacion. Sure, it uses up his margin for error - but if there's one guy in the major leagues that Ubaldo knows he can get out, it's surely Jose Bautista.

Pillar hit the highest pitch of the night, the highest pitch he's ever put in play in his career, and one of the top-10 highest height-adjusted pitches of all time:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/kevin-pillar-reached-a-new-height/

"... I'd be tempted to go with a 6 man bullpen..."

It would be nice to get Goins onto the playoff roster, and we know Gibbons loves him.  But even with Liriano in the bullpen, and even with the off-days in the series, I still think a 6-man bullpen is dangerous because of the risk of extra-innings games, which seem to be more common in closely fought playoff series.  A 7-man pen also provides a wider range of choices for specific match-ups against specific hitters.  And then there is Osuna's health and tiredness, which must be weighing heavily on the minds of the Jays braintrust.  As long as Osuna is a question mark, the Jays should stick with a 7-man pen -- especially since an extra bench player such as Goins is unlikely to provide much value.  The Jays already have Barney as their back-up infielder, and Barney can also serve as a second pinch-runner after Pompey has been used.  I think a 7th reliever is more likely to be useful than a 6th bench player.

I had forgotten about the forfeited game, Magpie.  You've got the eyes of a bird and the memory of an elephant. 

I had much the same thought about the decision to not walk Encarnacion in the 11th.  I would probably have walked him, but it wasn't a clear-cut decision.  I do not want to pitch to Bautista when he knows that a walk is as good as a home run, especially when Jimenez has just entered the game and his control was not as sharp as it might be after an inning or two.  In recent years, Jimenez has got Bautista out by nibbling and Jose has a 7/7 W/K against Ubaldo over the last 5 years.  It doesn't help that you are playing on the road in an extra-inning game and less likely to get the marginal call. 

Travis' fine baserunning in the 11th really put the Orioles in a spot.  All the more reason to have called on Britton. 

Uglyone,

The article you linked said that Bautista hit a HR in the first inning, and that Pillar came up to bat with the score tied 1-1. All within the first 200-300 words of the 1200 word article.

I don't know how you can keep reading when the author seems to pay such little attention to detail.

"Only question marks in my mind are Tepera and Loup. Could I see Gibbons wanting Goins instead of one of them?"

Given that Goins barely played with an unlimited roster in September I don't see him on the roster. Barney's the backup infielder, and you're never taking Donaldson or Tulo out unless they get hurt.

Taking yesterday's roster, you have to find two spots for Happ and Sanchez. Goins is the easy first choice, and Tepera or Loup is likely the 2nd choice. I think Tepera is little better option than a 3rd LH who's going to be a LOOGY.

SK,

The crowd was electric last night, and it was a great game!

However, I did see a few drunken guys get in a fight. I heard racist comments being made towards Kim.

I heard people laughing at Osuna because he's Mexican and Trump wouldn't like him.

So overall I would say it was fun, but at the same time it was a reminder of how far we have to go as a people. Not Torontonians, but just people in general.

And I wasn't even sitting close to Adam Jones. Sounds like it was worse out there.

I agree with this, generally.  I suppose it allows you to deploy Liriano more aggressively too, which should be the goal, I think.  I'd just love to find a way for an extra pinch runner, but yeah, Barney can handle it too.

In his first post-season, Showalter's Yankees went to a fifth and deciding game against Seattle. David Cone took a 4-2 lead into the eighth but a Griffey HR and a bases-loaded walk tied things up. Showalter brought in a rookie named Mariano Rivera, who'd pitched mostly as a starter that year and not very well (5-3, 5.51). But Rivera got the ininng-ending K with the sacks full and stayed in to retire the Mariners in the ninth as well.

And then Buck summoned Jack McDowell. He'd won 15 games for the Yankees that season, but he had never before made a relief appearance in the major leagues. And his three career post-season starts had not gone well (0-3, 9.42.) McDowell allowed a couple of hits but made it through the 10th without allowing a run. The Yankees took the lead in the 11th, and seeing as how the Mariners had roughed up closer John Wetteland earlier in the series, Showalter stuck with McDowell to get the final three outs. Cora singled, Griffey singled, and Edgar walked it off with a double to left.

Travis' fine baserunning

That was actually what I was talking about while Showalter has his meeting on the mound to discuss how to throw Edwin the meatball.  Turned to my dad and said "Wow, isn't it nice to see Travis correctly taking 3B for once!"

Changed the entire complexion of that inning.  Very nice aggressive, heads up baseball, and smartly done for the first time in a while.

Pubster, where were you sitting? My wife and I are talking about driving down to Toronto for Game 3, but I'd rather avoid the fights, racism, drunks, etc. I guess it's unavoidable with 50k in attendance, though. With that many people, there are always going to be a few idiots out there who don't know how to act in public.

Adam Jones was asked whether there were racist comments directed at him/Kim by fans in that section, and while he didn't come out and say there was, I shudder to think what could have been said with a Korean in LF and a black man in CF. Not a good look, but that's the world we live in (everywhere).

Regardless, the passion and intensity in the stadium comes off absolutely amazing on TV. Can't let a few people ruin what should be looked at as a great atmosphere for baseball.

"....if you're going to leave Jimenez in, don't you have to walk Encarnacion...."

My greatest fear in the 11th inning was another DP, and the slow Edwin at 1B would be easier to double-up than the faster Donaldson, so I suspected Showalter would walk Edwin.

And then I was thinking to myself: should Gibbons maybe put Pompey into the game as pinch-runner at 1B, for the specific purpose of avoiding a DP?  After all, the Jays could have won the game on a ground ball to the infield, if the speedy Travis was already halfway home and the Orioles were forced to try for a 6-4-3 DP.  In that scenario, a fast runner on 1B could have prevented the DP and virtually guaranteed a Jays win.  So I was thinking Pompey at 1B would be the solution.  But Gibbons probably wouldn't have done it -- for the legitimate reason that he would want to keep Edwin's bat in the game for future innings.

Only question marks in my mind are Tepera and Loup. Could I see Gibbons wanting Goins instead of one of them?

You mean to pitch?

One of my loves about baseball is how a team of the world's best marathon runners are asked to go into a one, five or seven set of 100 yard dashes. Even in their marathon specialty, the norm is a 70% failure rate.

The play-offs to me are an enchanting spectacle. A time to watch, wonder, be amazed, depressed. A time for either boundless joy or decades long memories of what might have been.

In short - they were made to encourage the intake of single malt. A pastime I'm well acquainted with.

Now - Jays - finish off Texas. Personally, I dislike their Odor.

Mike Petriello on the Twitter points out that when Showalter used Britton in that tie game at the Dome back in July, it was partially to get him some work - he hadn't pitched in five days. And that applies as well to the only other time in the last two years that Britton pitched in a tie game on the road.

Whatever. Anything that keeps the guy with the 827 ERA+ out of the game is fine by me.

Lots to be happy about.
Great win.
Faith in Stroman. Which he justified.
EE's hr is now a big part of Jay's history. Also our 1st WC win.

Thinking to next year. Zeke has been hot/crucial for 2 months. I would like to see him back with us.

The Giants will have 11 pitchers active tonight? For a Madison Bumgarner post-season start?

I agree that Liriano showed he can be effective out of the pen. I also agree we need someone in there that can go a long ways in case of extra innings. I guess at this point of the season, if there's a blowout, you just keep the pitcher in there and have him gut it out? Otherwise, I'd want Feldman on the roster as well, so that we have a guy who can go long in case of a blowout (either way) and rest the starter. IMHO, Liriano has earned the right to get some higher leverage situations.

If that means we drop Loup, so be it.. I'm sure it might have happened, but I don't recall any 1-2-3 innings by Loup this year. All I remember is a steady stream of balls and hits and hit batters. Not sure we need him in there.. (of course, my memory is biased. So is yours :-)

SK I was sitting close to first base.

It was a very exciting game, and I'm glad I went.

For the most part people were cheering fine. But I guess when you have a few too many drinks, you say some of the things you would ordinarily just think. You lose your filter.

For the Kim example, I think he only batted 3 times all game. And I only heard the comments in his last at bat. The comments were made about him being Japanese, so I guess the offender didn't know he was Korean. I didn't hear any racist comments for any other batter. So it was literally just 1 at bat of the 80 or so in the game. So a small percentage of the time, but still not cool.

Osuna also only pitched to 4 batters, and the comments were mostly made when he entered the ball game. So again a very small fraction of the entire game time.

People also seemed to generally be cheering for the fan who threw something at Kim. In fact I would say almost everyone who was cheering at that point was booing Jones for complaining. Kind of like when fans boo when the opposing pitcher throws over to first base.

But it was electric in there. It was pretty cool seeing members of the military cheering enthusiastically. I usually envision them to be stone-faced, showing little emotion. And it was a great ball game.

I love my Jays, and I truly hope that it doesn't come to this, but MLB needs to cause a forfeit the next time that fans do something as stupid as last night.

You may say that this particular incident was one fan spoiling it for the rest, but there were obvious systemic issues that were apparent last year against texas that clearly haven't been addressed.

First, you shouldn't be able to possess a can/bottle of beer (or any beverage) at the stadium. This is standard practice for just about every other professional sports venue I've visited! Its ridiculous to me that this was still possible at the dome after last year.

Second, there clearly needs to be increased security at the stadium. That won't prevent this type of thing from happening but it will prevent escalation and it will ensure that offenders are caught (I've seen no evidence that the offender from last night was caught, prosecuted, and/or banned).

Finally, the stadium needs to improve their serving practices. There is a subpopulation of people who go to the stadium for "a little baseball with their beer". The stadium should not be feeding into this!. UnfortunatelyI can't count how many times I have seen overserving take place at Jays games. People should not get so drunk that they are comfortable being racist in front of 50,000 people or putting players and other fans at risk of physical harm.

3-0 in October.  Let's keep it up.  I think we match up well against Texas. 

The NL WC game..... Mad Bum vs N Syndergaard. That is a WOW match up.

This is a fun thread. I look forward to the Texas thread.

My greatest fear in the 11th inning was another DP, and the slow Edwin at 1B would be easier to double-up than the faster Donaldson, so I suspected Showalter would walk Edwin.

And then I was thinking to myself: should Gibbons maybe put Pompey into the game as pinch-runner at 1B, for the specific purpose of avoiding a DP?

Avoiding DPs really has nothing to do with the speed of the lead runner on first. I don't think replacing EE with Pompey in the scenario of an IBB in the 11th makes much sense

The speed of the lead runner isn't really a factor, especially with the new Utley rule about breaking up double plays. Difficulty in turning DPs is more of a factor of the speed of the batter and how hard the ball is hit.

Pompey at first really only works if you start the runner, which isn't an option with the bases loaded and less than two outs. And if a ball is too softly hit to turn a clean double play, it doesn't really matter who is running because the Os would only have a fielder's choice with the play most likely at the plate

Thanks.  That's another good reason why my idea wouldn't have worked.

Since uglyone seems to not want to drop this. Last nights win was great, but it has nothing to do with the fact that we have a lot of aging players. That situation needs to be resolved by an infusion of young hitters into this club. They'll bring back some of the vets if the terms/contract make sense. It's up to the team and players if they can come to reasonable consensus. As much as some want them brought back and some don't want them there is a lot of grey area in between. I'm pretty sure all the FAs are in play to be brought back, it just depends on the details.

As great as the 11th inning was there was also ten innings before it where the offense did next to nothing against pitchers not named Britton. Just thankful that Buck left Jiminez in there who was throwing meatballs from pitch one. I wouldn't base any offseason strategy off of facing similar pitchers. Base it off if you think they are worth their money going forward and if they can produce enough WAR to justify their contracts.

I thought Britton was coming in the 11th for sure.

The Oriole's needed a ground ball, and I believe Britton's ground ball rate is something ridiculous like 80% !!

Mike Petriello on the Twitter points out that when Showalter used Britton in that tie game at the Dome back in July, it was partially to get him some work - he hadn't pitched in five days. And that applies as well to the only other time in the last two years that Britton pitched in a tie game on the road.

Whatever. Anything that keeps the guy with the 827 ERA+ out of the game is fine by me.

It's not an original thought that the playoffs are a different ball of wax than the regular season because of the off-days (and because, in some instances, of finality).  Managers have to use their pitching staffs somewhat differently. 

I think Liriano makes Loup expendable. And I'm starting to believe in Tepera is a real MLB reliever.

My pen:

CL Osuna
RH Biagini, Grilli, Tepera
LH Liriano, Cecil
LR Feldman




"Since uglyone seems to not want to drop this. Last nights win was great, but it has nothing to do with the fact that we have a lot of aging players."

check out the ages of this Rangers team. or of all the playoff teams.

"It's not an original thought that the playoffs are a different ball of wax than the regular season because of the off-days (and because, in some instances, of finality). Managers have to use their pitching staffs somewhat differently.'

It's a fascinating topic, really. I think i might be able to sketch out an argument that regular season and playoff pen usage may require completely OPPOSITE philosphies and strategies, not just different.

And it could help explain why guys like Showalter and Maddon have had so little playoff success.

Hitters contribution for WAR of players below age 30 for the AL playoff teams:

Boston: 21.9 / 34
Texas: 6.5 / 19.2
Toronto: 3.6 / 23
Baltimore: 8.8 / 19.3
Cleveland 14.4 / 27.2

One of those numbers is a lot lower than the others. (not to mention those teams other than Baltimore have much better farm systems than we do) Yeah the Rangers are a bit older than the other non Jay teams.

I'm curious uo what you think EE and Jose produce as far as WAR next year. They're not at the age where they're going to get better (although Jose might have a bounce back season after injuries) so the question is how much worse? You said you wanted to empty the bank for them? I take it that doesn't mean 5/150 for Jose but curious what numbers you'd be comfortable with.

"And it could help explain why guys like Showalter and Maddon have had so little playoff success."

It'll be fascinating to watch the Cubs this playoffs - the best team I've seen assembled in years IMO. Maddon's TB teams were overachievers more often than not - with a loaded team of youthful stars and outstanding vets, I see them taking the whole thing.

how much to pay for Jose? Is it possible he signs a pillow contract? One year at around $20 million so he can rebuild value? or something longer, but south of the Cespedes deal which was 3 years at $75 million? 3 years, 70 million?

losing both EE and Jose is bad PR. I'd be happy with one though, as the veteran 'face of the team' (and hopefully a big bat), even if we lose Saunders to make it happen.

"Hitters contribution for WAR of players below age 30 for the AL playoff team"

man you love moving those goalposts.

I'll be unhappy if we QO Saunders just because it does mean a lesser chance of getting EE who I would obviously prefer. I just don't think he's going to be worth that 17 million.

And those numbers for Jose are fine. I'd be totally fine doing 2/40 as well. But thats not emptying the bank. To me my limits for those two are 2/40 and 4/85. But still that's going to hurt seeing that Ortiz has been basically been doing 16/year for years and that a vastly better player in Beltre than either of them is on 2/36. So while I'd be fine with the numbers I said above, it is a lot worse deals than what similar players are getting now. So knowing that I'd put my limits at 2/34 and 4/80.

You keep avoiding the point. The Jays are old and other than Travis don't have any quality young hitting. Who are the Jays young hitters or is your plan to just build around Donaldson/Tulo/Martin/EE/Jose going forward? Tellez, Urena and Alford are all long shots to be league average coming forward and even if they are they're not going to be ready til 2018.

So answer the question that SK and I have been asking. Who are the Jays going to use to replace the declining contributions of their over 30 hitters?

The numbers above were for 28, not 30. Was going back to the aging curves post. And you're the one to talk about arbitrary limits like your under 25 points.

One of the things that I was talking about at lunch (with my non-baseball-fan co-workers- pity them for having to put up with me!) was the difference between the playoffs and the regular season from an offence perspective.  The changes to the pitching staff flow essentially from increased usage of the top 5-6 pitchers on the staff in the playoffs, but there is (in my view) a corresponding effect on offence.  Let me explain.

I was trying to explain the difference between the 2015 and 2016 Jay offences.  Some of it was aging and some of it was the absence of Colabello (and a half-season of Valencia), but there was, in addition, a team-wide falloff in performance above and beyond any reasonable expectation.  I think that is due to the absence of synergy resulting from the other losses.  The 2015 offence benefited in many, many games from a long offence that got them into bullpens early and helped even lesser players hit better (because they were facing weaker links).  In other words, the "is it 6-0 yet?" meme from last year reflected a truth about the club which had effects on the individual offensive performances. This synergy has less effect in the post-season because the pitching dynamics are different (the opponent's fifth starter is available for long relief...).  Happily, this probably means that this year's club is about as well-placed as last year's to do well in the playoffs.

Hitters WAR = avg of fwar and bwar per 650pa

Starting Lineup

2B Travis (25): 432pa, .358babip, 109wrc+, 4.0war

LF Gomez (30): 453pa, .313babip, 83wrc+, 0.7war

3B Donaldson (30): 700pa, .300babip, 155wrc+, 7.0war

CF Desmond (30): 677pa, .350babip, 106wrc+, 2.9war

1B En'cion (33): 702pa, .270babip, 134wrc+, 3.5war

DH Beltran (39): 593pa, .315babip, 124wrc+, 2.4war

DH Bautista (35): 517pa, .255babip, 122wrc+, 1.6war

3B Beltre (37): 640pa, .293babip, 130wrc+, 6.4war

C Martin (33): 535pa, .291babip, 99wrc+, 2.2war

2B Odor (22): 632pa, .297babip, 106wrc+, 2.3war

SS Tulowitzki (31): 544pa, .272babip, 102wrc+, 3.6war

C Lucroy (30): 544pa, .322babip, 123wrc+, 5.0war

RF Saunders (29): 558pa, .321babip, 117wrc+, 1.6war

1B Moreland (30): 503pa, .266babip, 87wrc+, 0.7war

LF Upton (31): 539pa, .300babip, 84wrc+, 1.5war

RF Mazara (21): 568pa, .299babip, 94wrc+, 0.9war

CF Pillar (27): 584pa, .306babip, 80wrc+, 3.7war

SS Andrus (27): 568pa, .333babip, 112wrc+, 3.4war

Bench

UT Smoak (29): 341pa, .295babip, 90wrc+, -0.6war

UT Rua (26): 269pa, .342babip, 93wrc+, 1.5war

OF Carrera (28): 310pa, .311babip, 85wrc+, 1.4war

OF Choo (33): 210pa, .288babip, 105wrc+, 1.2war

IF Barney (30): 306pa, .310babip, 86wrc+, 3.5war

IF Profar (23): 307pa, .291babip, 78wrc+, 0.4war

C Navarro (32): 334pa, .248babip, 56wrc+, -1.2war

C Chirinos (32): 170pa, .250babip, 108wrc+, 3.3war

OF Pompey (23): 2pa, .000babip, -100wrc+, -16.3war

UT DeShields (24): 203pa, .272babip, 55wrc+, 0.0war

Starting Pitching (WAR = avg of fwar and ra9war per 32gs)

SP Sanchez (23): 30gs, 6.4ip/gs, 70era-, 82fip-, 88xfip-, 5.1war

SP Darvish (29): 17gs, 5.9ip/gs, 78era-, 71fip-, 75xfip-, 4.6war

SP Happ (33): 32gs, 6.1ip/gs, 74era-, 92fip-, 98xfip-, 4.3war

SP Hamels (32): 32gs, 6.3ip/gs, 76era-, 92fip-, 91fip-, 3.9war

SP Estrada (32): 29gs, 6.1ip/gs, 81era-, 96fip-, 109xfip-, 3.9war

SP Lewis (36): 19gs, 6.1ip/gs, 85era-, 112fip-, 121xfip-, 2.6war

SP Stroman (25): 32gs, 6.4ip/gs, 102era-, 86fip-, 80xfip-, 3.1war

SP Perez (25): 33gs, 6.0ip/gs, 100era-, 104fip-, 112xfip-, 1.8war

Relief Pitching (WAR = avg of fwar and ra9war per 65ip)

RP Osuna (21): 72gms, 74.0ip, 63era-, 74fip-, 85xfip-, 1.8war

RP Dyson (28): 73gms, 70.1ip, 55era-, 84fip-, 81xfip-, 1.8war

RP Biagini (26): 60gms, 67.2ip, 72era-, 68fip-, 87xfip-, 1.0war

RP Bush (30): 58gms, 61.2ip, 57era-, 63fip-, 78xfip-, 1.8war

RP Grilli (39): 67gms, 59.0ip, 97era-, 103fip-, 96xfip-, 0.3war

RP Jeffress (28): 59gms, 58.0ip, 54era-, 76fip-, 88xfip-, 1.5war

RP Cecil (29): 54gms, 36.2ip, 92era-, 84fip-, 67xfip-, 0.6war

RP Barnette (32): 53gms, 60.1ip, 48era-, 78fip-, 92xfip-, 1.5war

RP Feldman (33): 35gms, 52.1ip, 98era-, 93fip-, 86xfip-, 0.3war

RP Claudio (24): 39gms, 51.2ip, 63era-, 69fip-, 85xfip-, 1.0war

RP Tepera (27): 20gms, 18.1ip, 69era-, 86fip-, 100xfip-, 0.4war

RP Diekman (29): 66gms, 53.0ip, 77era-, 82fip-, 92xfip-, 0.9war

RP Liriano (32): 2gms, 2.0ip, 210era-, 155fip-, 22xfip-, -1.6war

RP Holland (29): 2gs, 2.0ip, 0era-, 73fip-, 113xfip-, 1.6war

"You keep avoiding the point. The Jays are old "

And for some reason you need to keep twisting every team's numbers via different selective splits to "prove" that "point".

Really with the Barney and Profar comparisons? Barney is 3.6 aWAR going forward and Profar is 0.4? Anyway I'd be genuinely curious to see what you want this roster to look like the next couple years. Who do you want to resign and what young blood do you want to bring in to fill holes in the lineup and counter the aging decline of the core 5 players.

If you want to resign both Jose and EE than what is your thoughts on filling backup 1B and the other OF positions than Pillar. I would think you are not happy with Upton or Smoak so I'm wondering which players you'd like there.

"And for some reason you need to keep twisting every team's numbers via different selective splits to "prove" that "point"."

Yes the Jays batters are old. Every single split under the sun shows that to be true. Their only productive hitter who is young is Travis. That the Jays core of hitters is aging and in decline is beyond argument.

Here prove that the Jays have good young hitters and match in any way other contending teams in the majors. Sure the Rangers are an older team like the Jays are, but Boston, Cleveland, NY and others are all substantially younger.

"Barney is 3.6 aWAR going forward and Profar is 0.4?"

that post has nothing to do with our discussion, but is just how the rosters compare based on this year's performance.

As for Profar, he's basically their Pompey.

"Yes the Jays batters are old. "

yes, I know, first you limit it to just hitters, then you ignore injuries, then you use whichever age cutoff best fits your comparison.

the difference between the playoffs and the regular season from an offence perspective

Did Bill James not do a study on what happens to an offense in the playoffs? I seem to recall that you start with the premise that you will see better pitching. The argument then goes that if your offense is "long sequence" (i.e., predicated on high OBP), it will suffer more greatly than if your offense is predicated on power. Those long sequences will be easier to disrupt than the "bloop and a blast" approach.

Or something like that. I may be misremembering.

I guess there will always be exceptions, like non-power teams like the Royals winning the World Series and all. But it does suggest that the regular season and playoffs are very different animals. And to use Mylegacy's analogy, a long distance runner's toolkit may not serve you that well in a sprint. Like when Showalter treats October 4 like May 4.

You make your age limits relative too, so I don't see how that makes a difference. Anyway its clear at this point you refuse to present your vision on the Jays moving forward. You won't actually engage in a debate and just snipe points. Until you actually make a good faith argument I'm done with this. Have fun.

"Anyway its clear at this point you refuse to present your vision on the Jays moving forward."

Pretty simple - keep the core together. spend money. accept some bad years at the end of expensive contracts. move the secondary players when they're too expensive. Draft well. trade the right prospects. keep the right prospects. repeat.

Okay this is the last time I'm putting myself out for this. Yes that makes sense. Every team wants to do this, even the Diamondbacks who made a mess of things. That is what baseball is all about. It is the details that actually matter here.

So here is the problem:

1. Your core 5 are declining. Last year they had 23-24 WAR. This year its 18. Next year aging curves probably puts them around 15-16.
2. You have as your young players in the big leagues Travis, Pillar and Pompey. The latter two are fairly weak as hitters or unproven. Even Travis isn't turning out as good as he was last year, although that could be injury driven as much as anything. Still the lack of walks is troubling.
3. You have a slew of veterans that aren't very exciting at backup positions like Upton, Smoak, Zeke and Barney.
4. You have a weak minor league system, with no batters currently in the system ready to join the team until September next year at the earliest. (I think its fair to assume that Urena, Tellez and Alford will not be ready to start next year since all have major areas in their game that need to be worked on)
5. The FA class coming up is fairly weak at anything other than DH types.

So what is your plan for the lineup for next year than? To run out the current lineup over again? What makes you think that will be good enough to compete given another year of decline?

"Your core 5 are declining"

There is no core 5.

Sanchez, Stroman, Osuna, Travis, and probably even Pillar are all part of the core.

and Donaldson and Tulo are 30 and 31.

In the end with the ages of the Jays hitters we see...
Very Young (sub 25-peak yet to happen): nada
Young (25-27: lots of peak time left): Travis, Pillar
Not old (28-30): Smoak, Saunders, Donaldson
Getting there (31-32): Tulo
Geezer (33+): Martin, Encarnacion, Bautista

There are prospects near such as Reese McGuire and AJ Jimenez (AJ is pushing it for age) behind the plate who both could be up at some point next year. Others are far away but off to good starts like Bo Bichette (18 with a 1000+ OPS in rookie ball at SS), and Vladmir Guerrero (17 at 3B with an 808 OPS in rookie ball).

The Jays of 2017 are strong and I like the looks for 2020 or so when those two kids reach (hopefully). The trick is what to do for 2017-2020 when current Jays get older. Keeping EE might be OK, same with Bautista for one more year or Saunders for a couple at a reasonable price. Challenge will be for the Jays to not be silly and sign guys to 7 year deals. The old sticking to 5 was smart and should only be broken if the dollars are great or the player is an extra special case - I could see doing it for Donaldson or an age 28 or younger premium free agent. Never for a pitcher - even the 2nd coming of Roy Halladay.

Martin, Tulo, Donaldson, EE and Baustista (if resigned) will be making over 100 million dollars combined for about 15-16 WAR production. Yes there is other young players on the team who will be contributing and being paid a lot less. Eventually they are going to need to be extended/etc and it will cost money that is sunk into the above 5 players. Other FA signings will likely need to be made and sinking that much money into 5 declining players will really limit them moving forward. Unless payroll goes up substantially I don't see that working out. I agree with the general platitudes you gave for managing the team, but others and I see a big difference between that vision and making it a reality. You mentioned before you have to accept having a couple bad years when players get old. Those players are Jose/EE and that time is next year.

Savings are coming in the pitching staff.
Pre-Arb: Sanchez, Osuna (both arbitration 2018)
Arb 1: Stroman
Signed: Happ ($13 each of 17/18), Estrada ($14.5), Liriano ($13.7), Grilli ($3)

That is pretty cheap for a 5 man rotation plus closer & setup man ($45.2 plus Stroman arb or about 50% more than Price is getting on his own). Most other relievers are either pre-arb or free agents.

Also signed: Donaldson ($17 mil), Tulo ($20), Martin ($20), Smoak ($4.1).

The Jays should have tons of room to sign anyone they want this winter as long as they don't go stupid (ie: 7 years or $30+ mil a year or both).

""Those players are Jose/EE and that time is next year."

yet just last week you were saying the team that signed them would be better in the short teem.

there's a simple equation here - we need a 1B and DH for next year, we have lots of payroll room, and these guys are most likely the best options in those slots.

in general you do a disservice to your argument by lumping only selected specific players together. i.e. Donaldson/Tulo were worth about the same this year as last year, at ages 30 and 31, and are closer innage to pillar than bautista.

and none of the key young core players are up for big contracts before martin and tulo's contracts expire, so there's no conflict there.

and as the yankees show, teams will still trade assets for the old guys when their contracts are ending. and that's players much older than what martin (36) and tulo (35) will be at the end of their contracts.

Amazing.   The Jays make the playoffs for the second consecutive year -- an unprecedented achievement for this team over the past 23 years -- and some pessimistic fans can only gloomily fixate on their "declining" future.  Why so much negativity at a time of substantial success?  The team's actual performance in 2015 and 2016 is a concrete reality, while the gloomy predictions of the future are just a form of speculation that might never come close to reality.  I prefer to pay attention to the concrete reality, not the speculation and the predictions that could be way off-base.

Building a long-term winner isn't dependent solely on the farm system.  It's not a simplistic result of "youth."  A big part of the team's future will depend on its financial sustainability.  And you'd have to be blind to ignore the financial successes of the past two years.  Just look at the excitement across Canada this week, look at the huge crowd at last night's game and at the games of the past few months, look at the buzz on social media and everywhere else across the country -- all of this is helping the Jays generate revenue and build a sustainable future.  Look at the attendance figures this year -- among the best in the majors -- and look at the rising revenue from television, merchandising and everything else. And then look at the fact that the Jays were able to acquire Liriano at the trade deadline, mostly because they now have financial resources that many other teams don't have.  Should the Jays have refused to acquire Liriano because he might be "declining"? 

Financial sustainability is probably more important than a bunch of prospects who may or may not become stars.  If you're gambling on prospects, you're in a risky business, no matter how much you insist that "youth" is the solution.  If instead you combine your prospects with financial resources, the team's future becomes much more sustainable.  And that's what the Jays have been doing, under Anthopoulos and now under Shapiro.  It's a logical strategy for a big-market team.  Until a few years ago, the Jays had failed to exploit their market potential.  Now they are doing it, and it is providing resources that the team never had before.  In fact that's why Shapiro came to Toronto -- because the team has a big market and substantial financial resources, compared to Cleveland.  To exploit those resources, AA and Shapiro have had to build the revenue that comes from being a winner on the field.  If the Jays had just passively waited for their farm system to produce a winner, we could still be waiting.  They did what they had to do, and it paid off.  And I think it's illogical to assume that they are doomed to mediocrity. Yes, some of their veterans are in their 30s, and their farm system isn't currently a top-ten system.  That doesn't guarantee mediocrity in the future, when the Jays now have financial resources that most other teams don't have.  The quality of a farm system can oscillate up and down, but financial resources are something that the Jays can now count on.

The starting pitching is set for next year and is currently the best in the league.

Bautista didn't contribute much to the team this year because of injury.
Even when healthy, his offensive WAR is almost canceled but his defensive WAR.
We might not have a 30 HR hitter in the outfield next year, but we didn't have one this year either.
I'm fine with better defense.

The big question in my mind is the bullpen.

It may seem counterintuitive China fan but pessimists like Kasi are hedging for the inevitable snapshot of the Jays frozen forevermore as bombing out of the playoffs entirely in September, errr, to securing only a Wild Card slot, um, to being humiliated by a Rangers squad out for revenge, gulp, to getting smo(a)ked by two obviously superior teams in CLE or BOS (whose managers will actually play their stud closers), to, derp, finally meeting their match against the National League pennant winner.

It's natural for some to guard against (hypothetical) letdowns that will (or won't) happen over the next month by already looking towards the future (with brown-coloured glasses). It's the same with commenters on my other favourite team's message boards -- the Raptors -- who proclaim that the team should be blown up because they'll never beat LeBron, regardless of the growing track record of success by both the roster and management. That's why I didn't post at all during the September Swoon because it's healthier to revel in the glory (however fleeting that it may be) than rage impotently when events lead the team off the rails (albeit temporarily).

And if the team does ultimately have to re-set in a Yankees 2016 kind of way, then we can all just suck up the 4th place finish and revel in the prospect porn!

I love my Jays, and I truly hope that it doesn't come to this, but MLB needs to cause a forfeit the next time that fans do something as stupid as last night.

That would make no sense. Hopefully criminal charges are laid and they ban everything  but paper cups.

They already released a picture of the suspect and apparently it's not difficult to find what seat he was in and who purchased the ticket.

Ever heard or the ten cents beer night in 1974? If yesterday was worth a forfeit, that incident would have warranted the move of the Indians out of Cleveland.

jjdynomite, dropping the philosophy.  awesome post.

Nothing has really changed. The Jays have a window to win in 2016 like they always did, and thankfully were still able to get in despite a bad September. In baseball, the hottest team can win the World Series, so if the Jays batters get hot and pitching stays at the level they've been all season, then they have just as good a chance as every other team currently in the playoffs. That doesn't change the 2017-beyond outlook, though. You can't let sentiment dictate direction.

With that said, I find it very difficult to even care about 2017 right now. The Jays are in the playoffs (and now the "real" playoffs after winning the WC game). We have months to worry about the off-season. It baffles me that people can worry about bashing the front office on the same day that Encarnacion hits one of the biggest home runs in recent franchise history. "What a HR by Encarnacion....too bad he's going to get low balled and leave because of SHA-PIE-RO". That's Sportsnet comments section material right there.

Yeah, you shouldn't read those comments. You'd tear out less of your hair listening to that damn Wilner show.

trade the right prospects

Like Thor?

We have months to worry about the off-season.

Word.

That's what the off-season is for. Although I don't even concern myself with it then (Raptors, folks!) I like watching players play the games. I don't much like thinking about what I'd do if I were the GM. I already know I'd be really, really bad at it. And I'm an old guy. I don't have that kind of time.

but MLB needs to cause a forfeit the next time that fans do something as stupid as last night.

A 7-game series could be decided by 7 fans, each visiting the other team's park, each forfeiting a game for the homeside.

The beer thrower has been identified.

To be clear, I wouldn't be arguing for a forfeit if there was evidence of the jays taking action along the lines of what I outlined. My point was that they clearly didn't "get it" after last year. That's why mlb should take notice. If tomorrow morning the dome was paper cup only (a very easy and quick to implement change) the my stance would change.

Moving on, what exactly is Tellez's flaw? Why are we assuming that precisely zero of our low minors prospects will develop quickly? And if you are going to assume regression from our aging hitters then why aren't you assuming progression from our young pitching staff? Even if you disagree, did management not show an ability to handle the loss of Price creatively last year?

Armageddon is not upon us, the team isn't just going to blow up and there have been no J.P Riccardi or Gord Ash sightings.

Maybe, just maybe, enjoy the moment.

"....Why are we assuming that precisely zero of our low minors prospects will develop quickly?...."

I agree.  Prospects are very difficult to predict, and we shouldn't assume that the Jays have a terrible farm system just because it doesn't rate very highly among a few of the online evaluators.  We've seen how much a prospect's ranking can shift unpredictably from season-to-season. Besides, the Jays aren't depending on an influx of young players -- they only have 2 or 3 potential holes in the lineup next season (and the rotation is already set). 

And to hark back to my earlier point about financial resources:  I would argue that the team's financial resources have helped them bolster their farm system.  It helped them acquire Tellez, Guerrero, Reese McGuire and Harold Ramirez, for example, not to mention other international signings in addition to Guerrero.  I think it's a mistake to assume that the Jays are doomed to inevitable decline just because some evaluators don't rank the farm system as highly as some others.

"It baffles me that people can worry about bashing the front office on the same day that Encarnacion hits one of the biggest home runs in recent franchise history"

It doesn't baffle you that on the day EE hits that HR and expresses his desire to stay that some would point out their desire to keep him (in fact it makes perfect sense) - it just frustrates you that it leaves you without an argument. which is why you then resort to personal attacks and high horses instead.

"It doesn't baffle you that on the day EE hits that HR and expresses his desire to stay that some would point out their desire to keep him (in fact it makes perfect sense) - it just frustrates you that it leaves you without an argument. which is why you then resort to personal attacks and high horses instead."


Why would I care if you or anyone else wants Edwin to stay? Fans get sentimental, especially after a home run like that. I get it. My stance on him hasn't changed even with the HR (if the term makes sense for the team then sign him up, if not, move on), but I don't care if people express desire to bring him back.

My comment was directed at the multiple shots you took at the front office for no reason immediately after the game ended. You'll have an entire off-season to whine about losing Edwin and complain about how Sha-pie-ro is killing the organization (and if David Price is any indication it's going to get uglier, no pun intended, in November/December this time around). Just seemed incredibly pointless to do it after that home run.

As far as personal attacks, trolling is essentially saying something to deliberately get a rise out of someone. The fact that we are talking about 2017 and/or the front office right now instead of the Texas series is an indication that it was trolling, or at least an attempt at it. That wasn't a personal attack as much as it was calling what I was seeing.

I don't think Edwin expressed his desire to stay. People have taken a quote out of his half broken english / half spanish post game interview way out of context. I think he was talking answering a question about the last regular season game at the Dome and wanting to get back there for the playoffs to experience that atmosphere again.

Unless there was another interview, I really don't believe he was speaking about next year.

EE hits a huge homer, and then says he wants to stay with the Jays.

You want us to ignore that and not even mention it, for obvious reasons.

I get it.

and if EE and Joey hadn't come through this game, I'm sure you wouldn't have even mentioned it, even though you've done it EVERY SINGLE GAME IT'S HAPPENED THIS YEAR.....

"once again it's the old hitters that failed to come through, (clearly it's time to move in a new direction)...."

every single time.

again, your high horse is an adorable little rocking horse.

Ugly, I have no opinion in this argument but I'm going to have to ask you to source the quote, preferably with the video, because I don't think it ever happened.

call me a dumb basement dewelling ahole, but don't call me a liar ;)


I saw it live, and I wasn't the only one:

http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2016/10/5/13174248/the-morning-after-ten-things-i-think-about-last-night-s-game

"In his post-game ‘interview’ in the clubhouse with Barry Davis, Encarnacion said “That’s why I want to stay here [in Toronto]”."

FWIW, Encarnacion has expressed his desire to stay in general terms a number of times.  It has been perfectly clear since spring training that the issue is not about the club, the city or the player, but simply about dollars/contract length.  The club would love to have Encarnacion back at the right price and Encarnacion would love to come back at the right price.  They just couldn't agree on the price.

Things may have changed some since the spring.  Encarnacion had a good year on the field and the club had a good year both on the field and financially.  I would hope that both sides would give it another effort after the season is done.  

What Mike Green said about EE.

FWIW, while there have been troll sightings round these parts (although less so than during the dark winter that was the Shapocalypse), I've never once seen Uglyone troll anyone.

Disagreeing with someone's ideas, even doing so frequently, is not trolling. Personal insults, sexist comments, characterizing people as whiners, etc - that's trolling IMO.

meh, there's some troll in me.

Shapiro doesn't seem like a guy who will let emotions change his approach, if an agreement happens I doubt it will be the Jays moving much off their numbers - it only takes 1 team to lure EE away and I expect that to occur especially because EE showing that he can survive at 1B makes him even more attractive.

It's probably instructive to remember the 2004 Boston Red Sox. They won the World Series after a lengthy drought, and then it was all business come the off-season. Pedro Martinez left and others too, though I can't recall specific names.

It's probably instructive to remember the 2004 Boston Red Sox. They won the World Series after a lengthy drought, and then it was all business come the off-season. Pedro Martinez left and others too, though I can't recall specific names.

Or the 1992 Blue Jays, for that matter.  As I recall, the '93 team proved to be a strong contender, notwithstanding all the changes.

Or the 1992 Blue Jays, for that matter.

Right. Fans were traumatized over Winfield's departure. Paul Molitor stepped in admirably and all was forgiven.

It's definitely a business.  Encarnacion will be well-paid wherever he ends up. 

What a game. I'm only recovering now.

Stroman, man. Aces the final exam. From the third inning on he pitched as well as you could possibly ask. I can't remember seeing him have such a nasty cutter. It was dropping so much and getting so many waves from RHBs that there should be scare quotes around cutter. 

The Orioles were pinching their outfielders toward the gaps against a bunch of the Jays' hitters, and they got burned by hits into the corners (and bailed out by Bourn on a couple others). Not that they were wrong, necessarily. Just interesting. The game was decided by defense! Not something the Blue Jays have always been synonymous with historically but I'll take it. It's a bit unsettling that Tillman was almost able to BS his way through five innings with a slider he just found in the ravine at Trinity Bellwoods on his way to the game, but if the Jays continue to prevent runs this well, who cares.

In some ways, Liriano and Britton are similar pitchers.

Playoff baseball games do seem to attract the people from the bar on UFC night and they make up a noticeable minority of the crowd no matter where you are. I lucked into section 121 and got stuck right behind a couple rows of jovially inconsiderate people who stood between innings all game. "C'mon, ref!" Eh, what can you do. Why do the stakes of the game bring out the sociopaths, anyway? Maybe that's oversimplifying. It is easier to see / evil as entity / not as condition / inside you and me. At least my sociopaths were nice. And the crowd was electric and positive all game.

In one night they undid September. Works for me.

Fans were traumatized over Winfield's departure

An aged RBI guy who's not above bunting in the ninth inning of a 2-2 game is priceless.

Not sure letting Pedro and Lowe go and handing that money to Clement, Wells, and Renteria was a good move in retrospect.

They probably would have won again in 2005 with pedro.

Well, the '93 Jays signed Stewart and Molitor to replace Key and Winfield, all similar quality, age, and price, so if the 2017 jays do something similar that's fine.

Are you kidding me, uglyone?!? The Jays aren't even playing the Sox (yet) and you brought up PRICE again!

TROLL ALERT!!!

/kidding, but I just had to

"the people from the bar on UFC night "

hey now man, that's me you are talking about! other than that, nice post.

"C'mon, ref!"

I was trying to explain the whole Bob and Doug MacKenzie phenomenon (hosers, take off etc.) to a younger person at my office, and calling this out to an umpire at a baseball game would have fit right into my soliloquy. 

And as for the nature of evil, that brings me to my choice for the song of the day.