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I'm seein' double here! Four Krustys!



The Bluebirds, coming off a pair of lost series against the Clevelands and the Angels, continue their homestand by welcoming the Minnesota Twins to town. The Twins? They're.... bad. Real, real bad.

But! Don't be entirely fooled or confident by their awful record. They have a perfectly square 24-24 record since July 1st, and this is despite coming into this series mired in a swampish seven game losing streak. And they have some dangerous guys: Brian Dozier is having the quietest 30 HR season by a second baseman I can remember in a while (call it the Aaron Hill Award), rookie Max Kepler is an above average regular with some pop, young Miguel Sano has serious pop (despite being badly miscast as an outfielder) and Ervin Santana is the exact kind of veteran "ace" having a career season that truly dreadful teams usually seem to employ. In fact, these teams are truly dreadful because they normally only have one of those such guys.

All that being said, this is a winnable series. Ferthelovofgawd, make it a winnable series.

Matchups!


FRI 7:07 -- Dean (1-3, 5.48) v. Liriano (0-1, 3.57)*
SAT 1:07 -- E. Santana (6-10, 3.33) v. Stroman (9-5, 4.47)
SUN 1:07 -- Gibson (5-8, 5.09) v. Dickey (9-13, 4.43)

* - in three starts as a Blue Jay

Special Non-Baseball Bonus!

A fantastic, delicious, irredeemable No-Prize if anyone can pick out what song I referenced in that title (not the Krustys one). Hint: it's the final lyric.

The No-Prize is a picture of an empty box, perfect for the beloved cuttlefish in your life.




Be nice to win a few.

August 26-28: From That Little Minnesota Town | 200 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Chuck - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 06:32 PM EDT (#329854) #
The Zim.
Four Seamer - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 07:06 PM EDT (#329858) #

Jays have picked up Dioner Navarro from the White Sox.  I guess he'll be the post-season backup catcher, should they make it.

greenfrog - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#329860) #
If Dozier ever has a son, he could name him Bull. You know, after Bull Durham -- in case anyone ever asks.
mathesond - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 07:35 PM EDT (#329861) #
Have no idea what song is referenced in the title, I assumed it was Lake Wobegon
John Northey - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 07:35 PM EDT (#329862) #
Navarro is an upgrade on Thole...barely. A 66 OPS+ this year after an 86 the year before. Not ideal but a slight improvement at least.
uglyone - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 07:44 PM EDT (#329864) #
navarro makes me very happy.
greenfrog - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#329867) #
Now -this- is Blue Jays baseball.
Magpie - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#329868) #
Have no idea what song is referenced in the title

Bob Dylan's "Went to See the Gypsy," allegedly about meeting Elvis. (Bob seldomr confirms or denies these things.)
Dave Till - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 08:02 PM EDT (#329871) #
Pat Tabler was psychic tonight.

During Smoak's at-bat: "Look for a ball on the inner half and see if you can do some damage." Five seconds later: *BAT*

If Nacarro is back, I'll bet he'll be catching Estrada again.
Dave Till - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#329872) #
Navarro, not Nacarro. Argh.
Magpie - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#329873) #
Meanwhile, the Yankees have jumped all over Yovani Gallardo and lead the Orioles 8-1, and Steven Wright's knuckler isn't doing much of anything at Fenway, Royals lead 5-1.
uglyone - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 08:09 PM EDT (#329874) #
navarro's numbers are ugly this year but less ugly vs lefties (77wrc+).
Magpie - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 08:14 PM EDT (#329875) #
I'll bet he'll be catching Estrada again.

The Marco Whisperer. And with Thole catching Dickey, reduces Martin's workload a touch in the season's sixth month. And Dickey probably wasn't going to be on a post-season roster, should the Jays get there.
Mike Green - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 08:17 PM EDT (#329876) #
Smoak changed his striding-to-the-plate music just in time. It's an improvement too.
China fan - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 08:26 PM EDT (#329877) #
Melvin Upton is looking like a very useful player these days.  Even before tonight, he had an OPS of .831 over the past 14 games, including 5 extra-base hits.  And then he picks up two more hits tonight. He also brings speed and defence.  If we assume that he needed a couple of weeks to adjust to being back in the AL and joining a new team, we might now be seeing the real Upton.  He can bring some useful things to this lineup.

Liriano, on the other hand, remains an enigma. 
John Northey - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 08:27 PM EDT (#329878) #
Getting up to 6 runs means Minny needs 7 or more to win now. They have done that 24 times in 127 games or 19% of the time (1 out of 5 games roughly). One more run makes it much tougher as they scored 8+ in just 14 games 11%, 9+ in 11 games, 10+ in 10 games.

Jays are 7+ in 31 games, 8+ in 19 games, 9+ in 17 games, 10+ in 12 games.

Hope I'm not cursing the Jays or anything here :P
Chuck - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 08:29 PM EDT (#329879) #
navarro's numbers are ugly this year

Yet B&P are convinced he'll be doing some DHing.

greenfrog - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 08:46 PM EDT (#329880) #
So far tonight, the bottom of the lineup is 5/8 with 3 R and 4 RBI.
John Northey - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#329881) #
If Navarro DH's from the start of a game then Gibbons needs a slap to the head.
uglyone - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 09:15 PM EDT (#329882) #
B&P are really working their magic tonight.
CeeBee - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 09:18 PM EDT (#329883) #
over/under of 5 on Navarro dh-ing. Under, I hope.
Parker - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 09:37 PM EDT (#329884) #
Holy crap, now this is more like it. Ugly, you need to complain about these bums more often. ;)
Chuck - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#329885) #
B&P are really working their magic tonight.

Their learned dissertation on analytics was especially inspiring.

uglyone - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 09:49 PM EDT (#329886) #
that's how you keep score, chuck!

and you're welcome, parker!
Mike Green - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 09:51 PM EDT (#329887) #
Thole time.
uglyone - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#329888) #
how long do you guys figure we actually need a 6 man rotatation? even in a 5 man rotation they'd only have 5-6 starts left each.
Mike Green - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#329889) #
I guess not. A 10 run lead isn't quite enough.
Chuck - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 09:56 PM EDT (#329890) #
Loup and Cecil should each be able to get an inning in. Is Thole getting the start tomorrow?
Chuck - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 10:15 PM EDT (#329891) #
Any chance Loup gets optioned to AAA before this inning is even done?
CeeBee - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 10:16 PM EDT (#329892) #
I don't think the lead is big enough for both of them.
uglyone - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 10:32 PM EDT (#329893) #
maybe liriano is the lefty reliever we need.
John Northey - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 10:39 PM EDT (#329894) #
Wonder who goes down tonight to make room for Navarro? Loup I suspect after this 'effort' as he won't be available for a day or two and rosters expand in less than a week. 6 man pen for 5 games? Can the Jays do it?
scottt - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 11:12 PM EDT (#329896) #
Navarro should be great in the clubhouse.
Loup could go down now since he's burned for 2 or 3 days.  Thole could go down if he agrees to a 3 days vacation.
What team is closer to his home in Colorado? They might still need an extra spot for Sanchez to pitch on Wednesday too.

Four Seamer - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 11:38 PM EDT (#329898) #
One of the first tweets I saw reporting the trade indicated that Navarro would be arriving Monday, so I suspect they'll have a few days to shake out the roster to make room.  If Saunders were in better health, Zeke's achilles might find itself acting up again.   
Mike Green - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 11:39 PM EDT (#329899) #
Smoak hit 4 balls hard tonight, roughly 3 more than he has hit in the previous month. It would be a good time for him to get hot.
scottt - Friday, August 26 2016 @ 11:56 PM EDT (#329901) #
It wouldn't make sense to put someone on the DL when the roster expends on Thursday.
Carrera might be willing to accept a minor assignment if he clears revokable waivers but outfield health isn't great right now.

Does Smoak usually get hot from both side at the same time?

Eephus - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 01:28 AM EDT (#329902) #
This is purely subjective, but I've always preferred Smoak's swing/approach from the RH side as a Blue Jay, even if the numbers don't back it up. He seems a bit less likely to chase, and his long big swing a bit shorter.

As for the (clearly too obscure) song reference: Chuck nailed the Dylan part, Mags nailed the song title by accident funny enough. I guess these things make more sense in your imagination sometimes...
Magpie - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 03:31 AM EDT (#329903) #
Does Smoak usually get hot from both side at the same time?

Well, he's only been hot once this season. That was from May 3 through June 3 when he hit .305/.371/.495 with 5 HR. On that occasion, he was good from the left side (.282/.329/.493) and really, really good from the right side (.353/.450/.500). Roughly two out of three at bats were from the left side, which is how he hit 4 of his 5 HRs.
jjdynomite - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 07:02 AM EDT (#329904) #
My wife asked me last night if there was any Lefty in the Jays' system -- or someone available in a low key trade like the Navarro one -- who would be more serviceable than the poo poo platter Loup served up last night (and has been delivering for pretty much his entire MLB career save for one season).

I told her that both hitting major league pitching AND pitching to professional hitters is hard. Regardless of that cop out answer, is this franchise really that bereft of quality Lefties? And no, I don't trust Liriano's walkathons in high leverage situations, either.
Chuck - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 07:03 AM EDT (#329905) #
Nice piece by Pos on Pujols and aging players. Worth bearing this in mind when we consider the immediate futures of Bautista, Encarnacion and Votto (and no doubt being considered by the brass as they embark upon a number of difficult off-season decisions).

Pujols played well in the recent series against the Jays, and was fawned over as if he still were THE Albert Pujols. The phrase Trout and Pujols was uttered as if these were two star players. But, but, but... Pujols has 100 RBI. As if no one remembers Joe Carter's ability to also drive in runs, thanks in no small part to his unique talent for coming to the plate with far more men on base than anyone else, and not letting pitchers walk him.

Meanwhile, Greg Zaun, in his pre-game blather, suggested that all Liriano had to do was get past Dozier since he could coast by the team's other eight hitters. What was lost in this stunning "analysis" was that the Twins are actually scoring at a league average rate and that a few non-Dozier players Zaun has never heard of are actually hitting quite well: Grossman 124 OPS+, Kepler 118, Sano 112, Suzuki 101.

Mike Green - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 08:42 AM EDT (#329906) #
There was a moment with Liriano in yesterday's game when I wondered: "where is Pete Walker?". Before Liriano delivered the next pitch, Tulowitzki jogged to the mound to settle him down. I don't think Martin likes to do that much, particularly with a veteran.
China fan - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 08:53 AM EDT (#329907) #
Darwin Barney is on quite an impressive streak these days.  He has a slash line of .355/.412/.613 over the past 8 games, for a nifty OPS of 1.025 since Aug. 10.   I'm trying to think how the Jays can keep him in the lineup when Travis returns.  Barney is actually hitting better than Saunders these days, so how an outfield of Pillar, Upton and Barney, with Bautista at DH?

That's probably not a realistic option, since Barney will inevitably return to earth, and Saunders shouldn't be benched if the Jays want to get his bat going again for the stretch drive.  But with the various aches and pains in the lineup these days, maybe Barney can be spotted into several positions to give the regulars a break.  He might have the hottest bat on the team right now.
China fan - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 09:13 AM EDT (#329908) #
"....Tulowitzki jogged to the mound to settle him down....."

As I recall that moment, the bases were loaded and Liriano didn't have a clue how to find the strike zone.  Tulo's move was the kind of smart move that a respected veteran can make.  He was just telling Liriano:  let them hit it, the defence has got your back.  And it worked: Liriano settled down and got out of the inning with only a single run allowed.

Despite his struggles with the strike zone, Liriano allowed only 2 hits in 5 innings.  He is tantalizingly close to being a very good pitcher.  And while the 6-man rotation is controversial, it does allow Sanchez, Stroman, Estrada and Happ to be relatively well-rested for a very important month of the season.
John Northey - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 09:29 AM EDT (#329909) #
The thing about hot bats is they inevitably come back to earth. With the exception of Bautista who got hot back in late 2009 and finally cooled off this year.

Barney is a sub 100 OPS+ hitter, always has been. In fact, this year and last are his only ones over 85. Last year was just 17 games. This year is at 88 right now. He goes on hot streaks where he makes you think he figured out this hitting thing and cold streaks where he reminds you he hasn't.

Right now the Jays regular 9 has only 2 guys who are sub 100 for OPS+, Smoak and Pillar. For the bench though only one guy on the season is at 100+ - Jimmy Paredes (134 in 17 PA, now in Philly with a 70 OPS+). There are 3 guys with negative OPS+ (Colabello, Dominguez, Burns) plus Ceciliani at 0.

In 2015 3 regulars were sub 100 (Pillar, Goins, and Reyes as Tulo didn't have enough games to pass Reyes). Meanwhile the bench saw 100+ from Colabello, Travis, Valencia, Tollenson, Barney, and Hague.

I think we can see the difference. Last year the Jays had multiple guys on the bench who could hit, this year nada as Barney (88) and Carrera (77) are the best. Ugh.
Chuck - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 09:30 AM EDT (#329910) #
Last night's start by Liriano was an exaggerated version of his season as a whole:

1.8 HR/9 (1.5 for season)
7.2 BB/9 (5.5 for season)
12.6 K/9 (9.2 for season)

Great "stuff" + walks + homeruns. That is a formula designed to come up short. At least one of the two vices needs to be tempered.

Chuck - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 09:34 AM EDT (#329911) #
Carrera (77)

In the early part of the season, Carrera was riding an improbable 400 BABIP en route to a 110+ OPS. The poor bastard is paying his penance as his BABIP has now dropped to 293. A guy who previously looked like a lock for an MLB 4th OF job in 2017 is going to have to re-earn a job somewhere next spring.

Chuck - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 09:41 AM EDT (#329912) #
over/under of 5 on Navarro dh-ing. Under, I hope.

With Bautista and Saunders wobbly, and always seemingly candidates to DH, and Smoak having earned fresh playing time (thereby returning EE to DH), it is impossible to envision any scenario where Navarro is going to be selected to DH. Maybe once the Jays have mathematically secured first place and the regulars are given rest.

Navarro's arrival could spell well deserved rest for Martin, or semi-rest anyway, as Martin could enter the mix for periodic starts at DH.

scottt - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 10:21 AM EDT (#329914) #
Seems like two vices, but the problem is just lack of fastball control. Too many balls. Too many pitches down the middle.
92-93 - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 10:25 AM EDT (#329915) #
So Goins and Schultz are back...you assume Schultz is for Loup, but Goins can be for Pillar or Travis. The team can probably handle an injury to Travis better.
greenfrog - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 10:31 AM EDT (#329916) #
Last night's start by Liriano was an exaggerated version of his season as a whole

But, of course, that was just one start. As a Blue Jay, his four starts as a depth starter have been more than acceptable:

22.2 IP
21 H
3 HR
10 BB
23 K
ERA+ 108
3.97 ERA / 4.43 FIP / 4.26 xFIP
0.2 WAR

Blue Jays fans have no cause for complaint about what they're getting from Liriano.
scottt - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 10:32 AM EDT (#329917) #
Barney hits like a 2-slot hitter. He tries to get long at-bats when nobody is on base and he tries to hit opposite field if that's where the hole is.  He's normally not the best guy to drive runs in, but he's great in the bottom of the lineup.

The key thing is that a lot of the regulars are banged up and Gibby is doing a great job of finding playing time for everyone. Smoak has the most frustrating job right now, but he understand his role.

jerjapan - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 10:32 AM EDT (#329918) #
My wife asked me last night if there was any Lefty in the Jays' system -- or someone available in a low key trade like the Navarro one -- who would be more serviceable than the poo poo platter Loup served up last night

We had some AAA depth at the start of the year, but we dealt away Leblanc, Venditte, McCoy and Hynes, your longshot LOOGY types.

Chad Girodo choose the wrong time for the worst month of his career, Loup and Cecil are struggling, and Franklin Morales ran over Atkins cat or something. 

I'm also starting to wonder how Liriano would look out of the pen, but like Chuck said, he needs to get one of those vices under control first. 
scottt - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 10:37 AM EDT (#329919) #
I think there's no point putting people on the DL now. They could send Travis down until Thursday.
I'm guessing he still has options since he never played a single game for Detroit.
Goins for Pillar would be a weird move, but maybe it's still possible to save his last option year.

China fan - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 10:40 AM EDT (#329920) #
"....So Goins and Schultz are back..."

Turns out that Goins isn't back.  He's still in process of reporting to Buffalo.  Just happened to be in the clubhouse today, on his way out.  So luckily there's no fresh injury. 

Schultz replaces Loup.
92-93 - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 10:49 AM EDT (#329921) #
Thanks, beat me to it. It sure would be nice playing a few weeks with everybody healthy. It will be interesting to see how Gibby sets the lineup once they are. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing Bautista back in the 3 spot with Travis-Donaldson leading off, just to see how things work.

Why would you DFA Loup if he can be optioned down?
China fan - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 10:49 AM EDT (#329922) #
"....Last year the Jays had multiple guys on the bench who could hit, this year nada as Barney (88) and Carrera (77) are the best. Ugh...."

I think that's a little unfair.  Those numbers are okay for bench players.  Barney and Carrera were perfectly adequate when they were needed in the early stages of this season.   Carrera has been hitting poorly lately, but he's basically a pinch runner and 4th outfielder, and most players in that role are unlikely to have impressive numbers.   The bench last year wasn't really any better, except for the Smoak/Cola platoon if you consider that a "bench" rather than platoon situation.  The Jays had to trade for Pennington last August because of a lack of bench players, and he was awful.  Barney is much better than Pennington.  Carrera was the 4th outfielder last year and again this year, and he's the same guy as before.  The big difference on the bench last year was the presence of Navarro, who was a useful pinch-hitter, but the front office decided that they couldn't keep him.  But now he's back.
China fan - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 11:18 AM EDT (#329923) #
"....Why would you DFA Loup if he can be optioned down?...."

Apparently it was done to make room for Navarro on the 40-man roster.   Still seems a little odd, since there were other surplus names on the 40-man roster (Dragmire, Dominguez etc), so Loup didn't necessarily have to be the one who was DFA'd.   But it shows how far Loup's reputation has sunk over the past year or so.  The Jays are probably quite confident that he'll pass through waivers and can be re-acquired and sent back to Buffalo.
China fan - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#329924) #
In other roster-juggling news, I wonder if Josh Thole will be demoted to Bluefield, as he was last year, to make room for Navarro until rosters expand?  But it seems that Thole is out of options.  So, instead, it seems more probable that he will be DFA'd after tomorrow's game and then brought back in time for Dickey's next start at the end of next week.  Nobody will claim him on waivers.  (Although there's speculation that the Red Sox would do it, just to be spoilers, or to acquire him as Steven Wright's battery mate.  But this seems highly unlikely.)
uglyone - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#329925) #
"Blue Jays fans have no cause for complaint about what they're getting from Liriano."

they have a decent cause to wonder at a contending team getting this guy to create a 6 man rotation when the sked is littered with offdays, imo.
uglyone - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 11:42 AM EDT (#329926) #
carrera and barney can't be lumped together because one is an elite defender and the other is a defensive liability.

carrer's bat has always been fine for a defensive bench role, he just doesn't hqve the defense.
China fan - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 11:57 AM EDT (#329928) #
He's still an upgrade on Saunders in the late innings.  (That's not saying much, I admit.)
scottt - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 11:58 AM EDT (#329929) #
Where were you all those years when the Jays couldn't keep any pitcher healthy?

The only problem this year has been Estrada's back and he had that before reporting so I give Gibby and the Jays an A+ for starter management.

greenfrog - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 11:59 AM EDT (#329930) #
Liriano has been about as good for the Jays as Pomeranz has for the Red Sox.
scottt - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#329931) #
Travis at 2B, Pillar at CF, Saunders in right and Thole catching?
China fan - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#329932) #
I really like the Dioner Navarro acquisition.  He's obviously not hitting as well as he did in 2014, but he's still far better than Thole.  Over the past two seasons, Navarro has an OPS of .636 which is not great but is still nearly 180 points better than Thole, whose OPS is just .460 in the same two seasons.  Navarro also has an OPS of .689 against LHB, so Gibbons can pick his spots.  His presence will provide a big upgrade over Thole in the playoff lineup, when Dickey and Thole will probably be gone.  And it's a great way to keep Martin fresh.  Martin is a crucial player on this team, and he could be a big weapon in the playoffs and the pennant drive if the Jays can give him additional rest next month.  And of course Navarro has a track record of handling the Jays pitching staff very well, so that's another benefit for the Jays.  And he's a great clubhouse guy (for what that's worth -- I admit "chemistry" is overrated, but it's perhaps not meaningless).  Listen to Estrada raving about him yesterday:  "He's a great human being, a great teammate."  That's not the kind of thing you hear about a random player. 
Chuck - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#329933) #
Seems like two vices, but the problem is just lack of fastball control.

Before this year, Liriano did not suffer from gopheritis (career: 0.86 HR/9 IP). The walks, however, have always been a problem (3.93/9 IP).

92-93 - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 12:33 PM EDT (#329934) #
The Red Sox desperately needed a starter (2?) when they gave up a top prospect for Pomeranz. Completely different situation from management trying to shoehorn Liriano into the Jays rotation and then changing their minds and rolling with a 6 man instead.
PeterG - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 12:38 PM EDT (#329935) #
Liriano was acquired mainly with next season in mind....to replace Dickey. Loup DFA when he could have been optioned. He would be arb eligible in off season so I guess he is done as a Jay.
greenfrog - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#329936) #
The point (which I assumed was fairly obvious) is that despite having given up a top prospect for Pomeranz, the Red Sox aren't getting appreciably better performance from him than the Jays are from Liriano, who cost far less in prospect capital.
Chuck - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 12:48 PM EDT (#329937) #
who cost far less in prospect capital.

And far more in capital capital.

John Northey - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#329938) #
Yeah, I'd say he cost less. Jay's got 2 prospects who are now in the Jay's top 10 and it cost Hutchison (#6 starter) and cash. I'd call that a great trade.
92-93 - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 12:58 PM EDT (#329939) #
Martin sits today because it's a day game after a night game, but Dickey is pitching tomorrow and Estrada on Monday, so you would think he isn't going to catch the next two games either. Perhaps he'll DH in one or both of the games.
China fan - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 01:08 PM EDT (#329940) #
Gibbons has said that Martin is likely to DH in tomorrow's game.  

The Jays are starting to get a little backed-up at the DH spot.  Bautista, Saunders and Encarnacion are all getting time at DH.

But it's pretty clear, from a variety of indications, that the Jays are making a real effort to give lots of rest days to their key hitters and pitchers this month and next month.  I'd say it's a smart move.   It's a long grinding season, and they need to stay fresh.
SK in NJ - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 01:19 PM EDT (#329941) #
Thole starting has already cost the Jays a run in the 1st. Another offensive outburst by the Jays would be nice.
uglyone - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 01:54 PM EDT (#329943) #
the red sox needed to get a pitcher, we didn't.

and after all the hullabaloo about not being able to affore big contracts its looking like we're gonna have $25m in starting pitching not good enough to make the postseason roster.
Mike Green - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 02:05 PM EDT (#329944) #
That was Bautista's 17th GIDP in his 83rd game.  When you pop up as much as Bautista does, the ball-in-play mathematics really makes it hard.
Mike Green - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 02:10 PM EDT (#329945) #
Stroman should find a horseshoe or a four-leaf clover, stat.
scottt - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#329946) #
Stroman needs to work on getting strike outs when he needs them.
scottt - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#329947) #
and after all the hullabaloo about not being able to affore big contracts its looking like we're gonna have $25m in starting pitching not good enough to make the postseason roster.

I don't think it's looking like that. Dickey not making the playoffs would be a plus and Price is the last guy I'd want in October anyway.
Kasi - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 02:31 PM EDT (#329948) #
Liriano is for three things.

1. Spell Sanchez so to allow him to stay in the rotation til end of season.
2. Give us a legit 4/5 starter for next year when Dickey is gone in a year that has a very weak FA class.
3. Give us a LOOGY (his slider is murder on lefties) to go along with Cecil when the playoff rotation is Sanchez, Happ, Stroman and Estrada.

Stroman reverted today to ground ball no strike out guy and got punished again for it. Of course the offense has once again not shown up (Jays have league worst runs/game by offense in their losses) so it's moot really. Team is awesome piling on runs when up big though.
Mike Green - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#329949) #
Stroman has struck out 4 in 5 innings.  Only one ball was really hit hard, Dozier's double. 

Melvin Upton Jr. doesn't seem to be with it today. 

Kasi - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#329950) #
Well they started using four seam more after the fourth. At that point he was 2 Ks in 4 innings. His 2 seamer has its uses, but the K rate on it is not good. Overreliance on it means he can be babiped to death.
Mike Green - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#329951) #
If they're hitting the grounders weakly, the pitcher is doing his job.  Roy Halladay had days like this one and would shrug it off.  Other days, he'd get hard-hit grounders and defenders would make spectacular plays.  He would consider that he was lucky and that he would get back to work. 
uglyone - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#329952) #
oh Schultz.

dammit.
Mike Green - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 03:13 PM EDT (#329953) #
Max Kepler is a fine player.  I think that he's got to have a long career. 

Schultz didn't pitch badly.  I'd give a fair bit of credit to Kepler and Plouffe for their plate discipline and approach at the plate.  Plouffe's home-run was a JE. 

Chuck - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#329954) #
Mauer struck out on a ball and Bautista walked on a strike. Ump's trying to help.
Parker - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#329955) #
Ugh, it's really going to sting if the Jays lose two of three against the second-worst team in the AL, and then follow that up by losing two of three against the worst team in the AL.

C'mon Jays, enough of this playing down to the competition B.S... good teams are supposed to clobber the bad teams.
Parker - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 03:29 PM EDT (#329956) #
Woo hoo, Donaldson! Now THAT is a baseball player.
uglyone - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#329957) #
did donaldson hold up on that EE shot even though there were 2 outs?
Chuck - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#329958) #
What does a bad decision look like?
uglyone - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#329959) #
lol. kids'll break your heart.

but good on BJ anyways.

minny isn't good but it maybe kinda sorta feels like the jays are getting back to the "we're never out of it" jays of last year.


maybe.
Mike Green - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#329960) #
I'll give myself a pat on the back for praising Kepler. 

The luck this game is now even- Upton just stuck his bat on it.
Mike Green - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#329961) #
Nice pitching match-up tonight in Boston.
scottt - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#329962) #
That one is all on grilled cheese for getting everyone fired up.

Loved the Osuna delayed delivery. Try and time my fastball?

scottt - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#329963) #
When you're a ground ball machine, a walk here and there is no big deal.
When you're a power pitcher, don't give away free passes.

China fan - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#329964) #
One-run victory.
scottt - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 04:52 PM EDT (#329965) #
Everybody should be watching the Cubs Dodgers game just for the commentary.
Potato chips, dry mustard, the girl with the curl and learning how to play baseball in the Venezuela Winter League.
And you'll never figure out why Fowler has 300 sneakers...

BlueJayWay - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#329966) #
The Twins are so bad they lose one games to the Jays. Hoo-boy.

Seriously though, that was fun. The Twins are probably my least favourite non-AL East team in MLB. Love when they're terrible.

scottt - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#329967) #
The Yankees are demolishing Baltimore and the Jays are going to line up against their 3 worst starters on Monday.

greenfrog - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#329968) #
I was at the game today and the atmosphere in the last couple of innings (the eighth especially) was electric. It was a fun ballgame.

Stroman was more unlucky than bad today. There was some good situational hitting by the Jays at various junctures.
scottt - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#329969) #
Stroman was generating a lot of soft contact and sometimes the defense complicates things by offering half the infield or not covering a base. Stroman seemed very upset and was slamming things in the dugout after the first inning, which wasn't a bad inning. He didn't throw any balls away this time, which is an improvement, but he still needs to move away from the ground ball with less than 2 outs and 1 runner on third or first base empty. Santana was the best starter today.
joeblow - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 05:41 PM EDT (#329970) #
Thank you Twinkies. That is all.
James W - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 05:55 PM EDT (#329971) #
The Twins are probably my least favourite non-AL East team in MLB.

It may go back quite a way, and good on you. But in a world where the Rangers and Royals exist, you still hate the Twins more?
ISLAND BOY - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 05:59 PM EDT (#329972) #
My non-AL East team to hate is the Texas Rangers. There's a certain Odor emanating off them, if you know what I mean. Minnesota is all right, especially with Paul Molitor being the skipper - I loved him as a Blue Jay.
Parker - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#329973) #
I'm with ISLAND BOY. I kinda like the Twins. I always loved Molitor, even before he was a Blue Jay. Poor guy looks like he's aged about 20 years since he took over as manager of the Twins, though.
Magpie - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 07:36 PM EDT (#329975) #
Ground ball pitchers aren't normally my cup of tea, but there have certainly been plenty of very good ones. But if you're going to be a Tommy John-type extreme ground-ball pitcher and allow lots of base hits - and Stroman is the most extreme ground ball pitcher in the majors, and he's the only Jays starter who allows more than a hit per inning - there are a couple things you have to do. You can't walk people, and Stroman certainly has that covered. But you also have to keep the ball in the yard, and that's been his problem this season. He'd allowed 9 HRs in 157 major league innings coming into this season, when he's allowed twice as many in roughly the same number of innings. It's only league average (a little less, actually) but the combination of more hits than the average pitcher and the same number of home runs has been a problem.
Mike Green - Saturday, August 27 2016 @ 10:29 PM EDT (#329977) #
There are ground ball pitchers, and then there are ground ball pitchers.  You won't find too many who walk under 2 per game, strike out over 7 and get mostly ground balls.  It's the Kevin Brown formula and it usually works. Stroman has a HR/FB rate of over 17% this year and that is high (it won't likely remain that way).

Max Kepler's misplay will be replayed over and over again.  On the other hand, he made an excellent play on Donaldson's liner up the gap the previous inning to hold Donaldson at first base.  It probably ended up saving Pressley a run (Donaldson would likely have scored from second on Encarnacion's single off Plouffe's glove into the outfield).  The excellent play will be forgotten.


92-93 - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 12:07 AM EDT (#329979) #
It's true, it was a great play by Kapler to cut the ball off in the gap and keep it to 2 runs, but I still have no idea how Donaldson only got a single out of it. I think he assumed it was a double off the bat and didn't really hustle out of the box, but the replay was so focused on the hit and Kepler in the gap such that you couldn't really see what Donaldson was doing. What an MVP swing, though. As Bautista was working his walk it felt like he was setting up something special.

It would be great if the offense comes through on Sunday so Gibby can stick with Cecil/Schultz/Feldman and rest up his better relievers for the Baltimore series. The Orioles seem to be lining up Miley-Jimenez-Gallardo.
Magpie - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 01:13 AM EDT (#329980) #
Kevin Brown formula and it usually works.

Sure - it worked because it was more or less impossible to hit home runs against Kevin Brown. Brown gave up half as many HRs as Stroman, just as a general rule - and in his really good years he gave up even fewer than that. That's what Stroman needs to do, at a minimum. Especially if he's going to be giving more hits than Brown, which he's also doing.
scottt - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 08:22 AM EDT (#329981) #
It would be great if the offense comes through on Sunday so Gibby can stick with Cecil/Schultz/Feldman and rest up his better relievers for the Baltimore series. The Orioles seem to be lining up Miley-Jimenez-Gallardo.

That was the only inning in a week for Osuna. I wonder how rested Shultz was. He was throwing 95 and every pitch seemed to be a fastball.
Mike Green - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 10:29 AM EDT (#329983) #
Donaldson's line drive home run on Friday night was similar.  He's a devastating hitter when he does that from time to time. 

Osuna was warming up seriously in Friday night's game in the 9th.  I think that it had more to do with him not having pitched in 6 days than Loup's struggles.  He was a little rusty yesterday (understandably), with no control of anything but the fastball.

China fan - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 11:29 AM EDT (#329984) #
"....Cecil/Schultz/Feldman...."

Shapiro and Atkins deserve kudos for acquiring Grilli, Benoit and Biagini and building an excellent top half of a bullpen.  But the bottom half is still a problem.  Feldman has been awful since his arrival.  Cecil has looked a bit better lately, but on balance his season has been terrible.  And the 7th slot in the bullpen has been a rotating cast, with nobody establishing themselves.  Perhaps understandably, the Jays are using the 7th slot to bring in a steady supply of fresh arms, but I'd like to see the Jays pick their best Buffalo reliever and give him a proper chance, without demoting him every 3 games.  When rosters expand, they should choose Barnes or Tepera and give them a fair chance to establish themselves.  (After all, that's how the Jays discovered that Biagini can be a high-leverage reliever -- they gave him a chance, because they weren't able to demote him.  If they had been able to option Biagini to the minors, he might have been treated like Tepera or Barnes and the Jays might have never known Biagini's potential.)
bpoz - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#329986) #
Very true CF. Grilli, Benoit and Biagini were acquired as long shots and we got lucky. Cecil was v good before, so we counted on him, but he is having a horrible year.
Only Osuna has produced as expected.
This pen came together in a very weird way. I don't believe anyone anticipated this. I know I did not.
jerjapan - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 11:44 AM EDT (#329987) #
Good points China.  The playoff roster this year is particularly unclear - it looks like Navarro is hear to replace Thole, leaving Dickey off.  I'm not a fan of the Loup DFA but clearly he is out of the picture - is Liriano on the roster as a lefty specialist?  Better start getting him some September work out of the pen if so. 

Should Carrera make it with Upton in the fold?  Goins?  Schultz?  Should Feldman make it?  I'm more confident with Barnes and Tepera at this point. 

SK in NJ - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 11:47 AM EDT (#329988) #
Feldman is getting BABIP'd (.513 since the trade). His GB% is 63.9%, 12 Ks, 3 BB, no HR's allowed, and 17 of the 20 hits he has given up since the trade have been singles. He's been terribly unlucky so far. He'll be fine as the swing man/long reliever.

Cecil has definitely been an issue, though. He's getting hit harder than he ever has before, with more line drives allowed and a 10% drop in GB's. Obviously the home runs are way up. He's not the same guy he was prior to this season, for whatever reason.

With Loup gone, and Cecil struggling, it might effectively eliminate the LOOGY role from the Jays, which I'm all for. I trust Biagini, Grilli, and Osuna facing all batters. I'm still not 100% trustworthy in Benoit (ERA aside) so maybe they can mix Cecil in with him in the 7th if they run into a tough lefty, but outside of that, there's no need to play with match-ups.
ISLAND BOY - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 11:48 AM EDT (#329989) #
Too bad that one of the bullpen longshots to succeed this year wasn't a lefty. I wouldn't be surprised if the front office tries to add one by Wednesday.
lexomatic - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 11:56 AM EDT (#329990) #
You guys are forgetting, but Kevin Brown wasn't KEVIN BROWN until about his 8th season.
Seriously, look it up.
K's
That 8th season was his crazy 1996 season, but his career high in K/9 until the next season was 6.5. It wasn't until his 4th season that he broke 5/9 and 2 more seasons before he broke 6/9. From 1997-2003 he ranged from 7.8/9-9/9. For his career, he was 6.6/9
BB's
His career low in BB/9 was also 2.6 (in 265 innings in 1992) until 1996. He was usually in the 3s with a low of 4.1/3.8 K/BB, and that ratio generally got better as his career progressed. Starting in 1996 with his 1.3 BB/9 he ranged between sub-2 to 2.5/9 with a couple of blips up to 3/9 in partial seasons when he was injured. For his career he was at 2.5/9
Hits
In 1991 and 1994 he gave up A TON more hits than innings pitched. 233 in 210 in 1991, and 218 in 170. Usually for those first seasons he was roughly in the high 8s/9
Starting in 1996 he was usually in the 7/9s and for his career was 8.5/9. This year, it seemed like Stroman gave up a ton of solidly hit singles, and that's what probably needs to be addressed the most, because the Jays won't have a crazy infield defense forever, but he adjusted.
HRs
Stroman's career Hr/9 is 0.75, Brown's is 0.6. Brown only went over 1 3 times (twice exactly at 1, the worst at 1.3/9). Stroman for his 2 full seasons is at 0.5 and 0.95.If this is his high end for HR allowed, then

Stroman is FAR ahead of where Kevin Brown was. It wasn't until I looked into all the Kevin Brown claims in this thread that I realized just how excited we should be. I think it was in a recent Fangraphs post, where they mentioned how rare his combination of control, strikeouts and groundballs is. IF he can maintain this level of performance for 10 years, he will have had an excellent career. 15 seasons and he's borderline HOF (though it's insanely early to start talking about that). For the next few seasons, I'll be happy with him being able to pitch 200+  innings at a similar quality and continuing to make adjustments.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/brownke01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/stromma01.shtml


China fan - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 11:59 AM EDT (#329991) #
"...Feldman is getting BABIP'd (.513 since the trade)...."

Good point, SK.  But it's also clear that the Jays don't yet trust him for high-leverage situations.  He's only thrown 10 innings this month, mostly in a mop-up capacity.  I'm curious about the rationale for Gibby's refusal to give him high-leverage innings, but I assume they can see weaknesses that they don't want the opposition to exploit.  I hope they didn't acquire him purely as a depth starter in case of injuries to the rotation.
lexomatic - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 12:01 PM EDT (#329992) #
Stroman for his 2 full seasons is at 0.5 and 0.95.If this is his high end for HR allowed, then

Looks like I didn't finish my thought. Anyway, if this is his high end of fb% (currently at 17% with a career of 11%) if he drops down to a more normal range like his current career rate, then he's in the Kevin Brown zone for HR allowed. If he continues at a slightly elevated % then that's still not horrible, but might result in ERAs above his FIP.

uglyone - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 12:25 PM EDT (#329994) #
Stroman is a stud. i wouldn't worry too much.

as for the pen the roles seem to be getting more and more defined by performance.

Osuna closer. Grilli setup. Biagini more flexible but kind of the relief ace used in all other tough situations. Those 3 guys have been legit dominant, as good as most any bullpen trio in baseball this year.

Then Benoit the next leverage guy (he's been a bit lucky) and feldman as the longman (been a bit unlucky).

that all seems pretty good right now.

the other 2 spots are a problem. ideally they'd both be lefties but our lefties are both killing us. Tepera and Schultz have been pretty good and it's always nice to havs flamethrowers but they're still Tepera and Schultz so who knows.

not sure where we go from here. Sanchez would make the pen awesome but losing your ace should be a nonstarter imo. Cecil remains unplayable and might not make the playoff roster. Liriano should be better in the pen but fastball command is kinda important there too. Dickey as an RP? maybe. Tepera is probably a good choice but hardly a convincing one.

jerjapan - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 01:15 PM EDT (#329997) #
Cecil has been good, recent setback aside, over his last 15 games - 11.3 IPs, 15 Ks, 0.88 Whip, and rightly or wrongly, I think Gibby trusts him still - especially with every other lefty in the org traded, DFAed or released. 

Do you think Dickey works as a reliever?  That could be a nightmare for Martin / Navarro, but he could certainly work long if needed. 

Personally, I think Danny Barnes has to be in the mix.  Pedestrian stuff, but his season stats are insane, even for a minor league reliever, and he can work multiple innings. 

uglyone - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 01:24 PM EDT (#329998) #
i dunno, loup's stats in AAA are just as insane as Barnes'.
Magpie - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 01:35 PM EDT (#330000) #
I think Gibby trusts him still

Not if the team is winning, he doesn't. Not anymore. Cecil now comes into a game when the team is either trailing or ahead by a bunch. The one recent exception was that 2-1 lead against Cleveland that Cecil promptly coughed up.
Mike Green - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#330001) #
Dickey hasn't been hit hard either today, but the walks will kill you.  Two of the runs are unearned and so he'll end up with a prettier line than Stroman did yesterday, but Stroman pitched better. 

Rally time.
John Northey - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 02:39 PM EDT (#330002) #
The nice thing is the Jays have to feel good once the Twins get to the bullpen as their pen has been heaven for Jays hitters this weekend. Must be a nightmare for Molitor to deal with.
Hodgie - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 02:41 PM EDT (#330003) #
I missed the rest of that inning after the Rosario single. When I saw the score I assumed at least one home run. Sadly, 3 singles, 2 walks and 2 balls to the backstop and it's an offensive explosion. My bias against the knuckleball is well stated, however at this point I am simply looking forward to the team reclaiming the roster spot held by Thole.
Mike Green - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#330004) #
The passed balls/wild pitches are just part of knuckleball pitching.  Ryan Hanigan has caught Steven Wright most often and has had a dreadful season.  Sandy Leon has caught him recently and is hitting, but Wright has struggled with Leon catching him. 
dan gordon - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#330005) #
I would expect the post season bullpen to be Osuna, Grilli, Benoit, Biagini, Feldman, Cecil and Liriano. If one of Barnes, Tepera, Schultz is really good in September, they could bump Cecil or Liriano. I'd like to see Liriano get some work out of the pen in September.

As far as Loup's numbers in AAA being as good as Barnes', that's just not correct. Loup has given up 17 hits in 16 2/3 innings, and opponents are hitting .262 against him. Barnes has given up just 6 hits in 24 innings, and opponents are hitting just .074 against him. Loup has a great K/BB ratio at 23/2, but Barnes is better at 34/2. Loup's WHIP is more than 3 and a half times Barnes' WHIP, 1.14 compared to 0.32. I wasn't impressed with Barnes 3rd outing for the Blue Jays, but I'd certainly like to see him get a decent shot in September.
Parker - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 03:03 PM EDT (#330006) #
For a player whose entire ML career depends on receiving the knuckler, Thole really seems to be doing everything he can to play himself out of a job in professional baseball.

I'd rather see Navarro behind the plate, Dickey's clubhouse lawyering be damned. Navarro can pass balls just as effectively, and he's at the very least a replacement-level bat.

At this point, Thole looks like he would probably struggle to make solid contact against high school pitchers.
92-93 - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#330007) #
Josh Donaldson, 2015 MVP: .297/.371/.568

Josh Donaldson, 2016: .293/.406/.571

Lots of talk about Altuve, Betts, and Machado, but in the end it should be our very own if the Jays win the division again (Even though Mike Trout is the best player in baseball).
Mike Green - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#330008) #
With a 3 run lead, Feldman could have been left in. 
92-93 - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 03:41 PM EDT (#330009) #
Once you fire up the grill, you might as well put it to use. I would like Gibby to try and stay away from Osuna so he's available for all 3 games in Baltimore.
scottt - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#330010) #
Cecil is being tried as a LOOGY right now and the result isn't great. Not enough strikes.

Fieldman seems OK. Picking up a lefty specialist would make a lot of sense.

And Upton is doing fine, haters withstanding.

They could just demote Cecil for 3 days and not much would be lost.
Mike Green - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#330011) #
Fair enough.  I have a feeling  we are going to see Osuna unless the Jays score some more runs. 
Alex Obal - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#330012) #
I was just thinking to myself Donaldson's power numbers had fallen off a bit...
Mike Green - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#330013) #
That'll do it. 
mathesond - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#330014) #
Thole would look good in a Red Sox uniform next year.
92-93 - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#330015) #
Josh Donaldson update: .294/.407/.578. And here I thought Gibby should be cautious and yank him after taking one off his knee.
Cracka - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#330016) #
I think that's a total of 16 runs in the 9 innings against the Twins bullpen this series.
Mike Green - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#330017) #
Upton played that one beautifully. That's the best throw from him I've seen. 
pooks137 - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 04:10 PM EDT (#330018) #

They could just demote Cecil for 3 days and not much would be lost.

You can't demote veterans with more than 5 years service time to the minors without their permission, including Cecil

To get him off the roster, you'd have to release him or phantom DL him

scottt - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#330019) #
I missed Cecil crossing the 5 years threshold, still if they can find a legit lefty specialist, they wouldn't think twice before releasing him.
China fan - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#330020) #
"....Dickey's clubhouse lawyering...."

That's a completely false description, and actually it's just a cheap insult.  The decision to put Thole on the roster is management's decision, not Dickey's decision.  They're doing it to reduce the strain on Russell Martin -- not to kowtow to a "clubhouse lawyer."  There's absolutely no evidence that Dickey somehow demanded Thole's presence on the roster, or lobbied for it in any way.  He is quite willing to pitch to anyone, as he showed last year.  He might prefer Thole, but he's not stupid enough (or powerful enough) to imagine that a pitcher can insist on a personal catcher.

If you're unhappy about the presence of Thole on the roster, as many of us are, you should be accurate about the reasons for it.  It's not because Dickey is a "clubhouse lawyer" -- it's because he is a knuckleballer and he's difficult to catch.  The Jays knew that when they acquired him.  And Shapiro knew it when he decided to exercise Dickey's option.  If he didn't want Thole on the roster, he could have easily dropped Dickey from the team at the end of last season.  Instead he decided that Thole isn't much worse than the average back-up catcher -- and many Bauxites agreed with that, in fact.
scottt - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 04:48 PM EDT (#330021) #
I was strongly in favor of using Thole as the backup catcher.
That doesn't mean he should be catching more than required now that there's a better option.

Was Martin the DH because Navarro is catching tomorrow?
Martin went 0  for 3 in the cleanup spot, but could be a DH option against the lefty.

If Cleveland loses Toronto passes them.
China fan - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#330022) #
"... I'd like to see Liriano get some work out of the pen in September...."

I agree that Liriano might not be needed in the playoff rotation, but I'd be nervous about switching him to the bullpen.  He still doesn't have enough control.  I'm not even sure if he knows where the ball is going sometimes.  He's difficult to hit, but I think he's much better-suited as a starting pitcher, not a reliever.  I could see him having some value in the bullpen in some situations, but ideally not in high-leverage situations. 

Let's see if the Jays manage to acquire a LHP before Aug. 31, and then the playoff pitching staff will come into clearer view.  I'm sure they're trying to find one.
Dave Till - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#330023) #
Just as it is impossible to think about Vernon Wells without thinking about his contract, it is impossible to think about R.A. Dickey without thinking of Syndergaard. But it's not Dickey's fault that he got traded for The Norse God Of Fastballs, and it's not his fault that the Jays don't have a catcher who can both catch the knuckler and actually hit.

I think of Dickey as like 1992 vintage Jack Morris: he's been so-so at best, but he's delivered a lot of so-so, and so-so is better than bad. He's taken the ball every time he has been asked to, and he has thrown 815 innings in a Blue Jays uniform. Many of them have actually been very good, even if many of us have been holding our breath the whole time. He (along with Buehrle) held the rotation together when it had gaping holes in it.

I think his time here is done. The Jays have a number of decent starting pitching options now, including Biagini after this season, who can now be allowed to develop as a starter in the minors. And the Jays would probably be very happy to not have to carry Thole any more. But Dickey's given it all he has, and that's all you can ask of a player.
pooks137 - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#330024) #

I missed Cecil crossing the 5 years threshold, still if they can find a legit lefty specialist, they wouldn't think twice before releasing him.

It would seem cruel to release Cecil 3 days before rosters expand and before he becomes a free agent for the first time

I would bet that AA's old regime would try to avoid this perceived slight. We don't know as much about how the Shapkins duo treats such loyalty matters. But Cecil has been a lifelong Blue Jay and doesn't have an obvious replacement, other than maybe Liriano

China fan - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#330025) #
"....That doesn't mean he should be catching more than required now that there's a better option...."

Oh, I fully agree with you.  In fact I wanted the Jays to sign Navarro for the entire 2016 season, to minimize the need for Thole.  They didn't do that (perhaps because Navarro wanted a chance to be a starting catcher).  But now the Jays have got him back, and I think it's an ideal situation now.
Parker - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#330026) #
Without actually putting words in Shapiro's mouth, I have to say that an organization that chooses its bench players based on "not that much worse than average" without (as you said) any extenuating circumstances, since Dickey is more than willing to pitch to anyone, one would think that the "not that much worse than average" backup catcher would AT THE VERY LEAST be a ML-minimum salary player.

Thole is quite significantly worse than the average backup catcher and his defensive metrics are suspect, even by personal-knuckler-catcher standards. He's also not playing for the ML-minimum salary. I don't want to get into a Tu Quoque here, but if the premise that Shapiro et al comprises a competent front office is accepted, and as you say, Dickey doesn't care who he pitches to, then how does one arrive at the conclusion that it's a defensible decision to carry a below-replacement catcher who makes twice the league minimum without providing even average defense?
Parker - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#330027) #
China, when Thole is the Jays' backup catcher next season after Dickey (sorry, not the clubhouse lawyer) is no longer under contract to the Blue Jays, I'll happily apologize for my comments.
China fan - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#330028) #
"....how does one arrive at the conclusion that it's a defensible decision to carry a below-replacement catcher who makes twice the league minimum without providing even average defense?...."

You've completely misunderstood my comment.  I never defended the carrying of a below-replacement catcher.  I merely said that some Bauxites have defended it, because Thole's numbers aren't much worse than the typical back-up catcher.  (My own position was the opposite -- I suggested that the Jays should keep Navarro this season and juggle between 2 catchers and 3 catchers, as they did last season, although admittedly it would be more difficult this season because Thole is out of options.)

And my basic point is that you were wrongly attacking Dickey as a "clubhouse lawyer" -- a term which implies that a petulant pitcher had lobbied the Jays to give him a personal catcher, which is totally false. 

Everyone agrees that Thole is likely to be gone next season.  So please relax about it.
92-93 - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#330029) #
Allowing Biagini (and Osuna?) to develop as an SP in the minors may be why you want to have Dickey back on a deal that pays him as a swingman who can be your 6th SP behind Lirianio-Happ-Estrada-Sanchez-Stroman. The Red Sox used to have a deal with Wakefield that stated if they picked up his contract for that season, they earned another 4m option for the following season. I can imagine a baseball inflation-adjusted deal like that for Dickey, perhaps at around 6m.
Parker - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#330030) #
Navarro was going to cost the Jays at least $4M in 2016 to be a backup catcher, and that's assuming he'd even agree to the Jays matching the White Sox offer. He'd probably cost quite a lot more, since the Jays couldn't promise him regular catching duties.

I'm as much of a supporter of blind optimism as anyone, but the results speak for themselves - Thole is one of the worst players in baseball over the last two seasons, both with the bat and on defence. If there wasn't any "clubhouse lawyering" going on, why is he even still on the Jays' 25-man roster? Many other catchers have been waived since halfway through 2015, and most of them wouldn't have cost anywhere near as much as Navarro.
China fan - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#330031) #
Not to belabor the Thole point, but since we're discussing Thole, we should note that he has already been DFA'd today.  He said his goodbyes in the clubhouse after the game, and he says he'll be going home for a few days.  He will almost certainly clear waivers.  Then he can declare free agency, and the Jays can sign him again. 

All of that (the waivers, the declaring of free agency etc) will take a few days.  The question is whether all of that can happen in time for Dickey's next start.  Perhaps the Jays will use it as an excuse to delay Dickey's next start, or skip his start.  It's another advantage of having 6 potential starters.  It could perhaps be argued that Dickey is the 6th-best starter at the moment.  So maybe it's time for him to skip a start, and avoid excessive rest for the others in the rotation.



Bid - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#330032) #
Every thing Dave Till said. As Mario Batali advises, it's all about balance. Especially when it comes to opinion.
pooks137 - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 05:20 PM EDT (#330033) #

Allowing Biagini (and Osuna?) to develop as an SP in the minors may be why you want to have Dickey back on a deal that pays him as a swingman who can be your 6th SP behind Lirianio-Happ-Estrada-Sanchez-Stroman.

I like the idea of stretching out Biagini and Osuna next year, but I think they are going to have to win jobs out of spring training next year because they've both had too much big league success so far in the bullpen to send them back to the minors for seasoning.

And barring trades or injuries, the rotation is pretty full even without Dickey (Sanchez-Stroman-Happ-Estrada).

Can you think of a precedent where a two-year closer or a shutdown sophomore RP were sent down to the minors to get stretched out without injury or ineffectiveness?

China fan - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 05:20 PM EDT (#330034) #
"....If there wasn't any "clubhouse lawyering" going on, why is he even still on the Jays' 25-man roster?...."

Okay, now you're doubling-down on the complete surreal nonsense.  Do you actually think Dickey makes the roster decisions for the Jays? You think Dickey somehow outranks the GM and the President?   You actually think that a pitcher has the power to put his own personal catcher onto the roster?  What alternate universe do you live in?  There's no pitcher in the world who is so powerful that he can dictate a roster move.

I've already cited the obvious reason for Thole's presence on the roster:  Shapiro and Atkins decided that Russell Martin is much more valuable when he is concentrating on other pitchers, not Dickey.  They also decided that Martin could get injured if he is dealing with an unpredictable knuckleball every 5 days.  And they decided that this would be the best configuration for the entire pitching staff.  And they decided that there wasn't a roster spot available for Navarro, even if he was willing to re-sign with the Jays this year.

Instead of attacking Dickey, choose a reasonable target and criticize Shapiro and Atkins for their roster decision.  They're the ones who decided, not Dickey.
92-93 - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 05:39 PM EDT (#330035) #
Red Sox with Wright on the mound, 155.2 innings: 22 passed balls, 9 wild pitches.

Blue Jays with Dickey on the mound, 160.1 innings: 14 passed balls, 4 wild pitches.
Parker - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#330036) #
You're the one missing the point now, Chinafan. I was only trying to advance the theory that a competent front office would never choose to carry dead weight of Thole's calibre on the 25-man if there WASN'T some kind of extenuating circumstance involved in the decision. Of course Dickey doesn't make roster decisions... but if he makes it clear to management that he believes that his personal catcher is going to make him a better pitcher (regardless of what was said in public) then doesn't that at least lend some credibility to the concept of dragging along a player of Thole's calibre for three seasons after he's no longer even an average backup catcher?

I haven't crunched the numbers, but I'm honestly curious about exactly how awful a personal catcher has to be with the bat and the glove below the level of an average backup catcher before his black hole doesn't offset whatever theoretical value he adds to the confidence level of his barely-league-average personal knuckleball pitcher. Even in the NL, he produces a batting line that would embarrass many pitchers.
Mike Green - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#330037) #
I wonder what the club is going to do with the pitching staff in September. I would tandem up Dickey and Liriano to give Liriano some work out of the pen. It probably won't happen that way.
Magpie - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#330038) #
Of course Dickey doesn't make roster decisions...

Obviously. He had a 3.44 ERA pitching to Martin in 2015, and 4.60 pitching to Thole, and I promise you Dickey is well aware of that. Martin can catch the knuckleball. But Martin can't catch 120 games if 30 of them are going to consist of knuckleballs. That would be like asking him to catch 150.
Parker - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#330039) #
I'm not saying Martin should catch 162 games. I'm saying that a legitimate backup catcher should catch 40 or so games... not some overpaid tagalong minor-leaguer who makes National League pitchers laugh at his batting line.
Parker - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 06:38 PM EDT (#330040) #
Make the minimum-wage fodder take the knuckleball beatings. Find someone for the league minimum, or pay someone who can actually hit. There's no reason to pay for two roster spots for a guy who can't catch the knuckle OR hit.
Magpie - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 06:56 PM EDT (#330041) #
Ivan Nova is 4-0, 2.87 since meeting Ray Searage. Whatever the Pirates are paying this guy, it isn't enough.
Magpie - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 07:25 PM EDT (#330042) #
I'm saying that a legitimate backup catcher should catch 40 or so games...

Not "should" but "has to", as only a few catchers start as many as 120 games. But if Martin's backup catcher can't catch the knuckleball - and it's not exactly a widespread skill - then Martin has to do it. And that means the backup catcher is going to have to catch 65 or 70 games. Because Martin won't be able to play 120 games, not if you expect him - whom you're paying $15 million - to be any good. The Jays tried that just last year, and discovered exactly why catching the knuckleball is a job for your backup catcher, not your starter.

Looking at the way Boston's catchers have struggled with Steven Wright, it makes a lot of sense for them to take a flier on Thole, who's cheap and suddenly available.
uglyone - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 07:28 PM EDT (#330043) #
I'm mostly with parker. but i'd take it further - $15m and 2 guaranteed roster spots for a replacement level battery just isn't smart imo.

and this has nothing to do with Thor. I liked the dickey trade even though i hated loaing thor but we're allowed 5o recognize what dickey is on his on merits.
uglyone - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#330044) #
"But if Martin's backup catcher can't catch the knuckleball - and it's not exactly a widespread skill - then Martin has to do it."

good argument for not picking up dickey's option.
uglyone - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 07:33 PM EDT (#330045) #
more importantly - we just passed Cleveland for 2nd in the AL.

now let's track down those odorous rangers.
Parker - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#330046) #
I'm with Ugly on this one.
uglyone - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#330047) #
xoxoxo
scottt - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#330048) #
I don't really care for passing the Rangers. I'd rather see the Jays face Cleveland with the home advantage than start against the wild card team. I'm sure Texas as a much easier schedule anyway.

Magpie - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#330049) #
good argument for not picking up dickey's option.

Agreed. Thole's not the issue to me - there are lots of backup catchers who can't crack the Mendoza Line. And if Dickey was still a Cy Young contender, it would obviously be a different story. But I think the end of the road is coming up pretty fast for Dickey.

I've been gazing at Dickey's and Stroman's numbers, trying to make sense of them. Dickey's look a tiny bit better, but in general they're pretty well matched - ERAs in the mid 4.40 range (Dickey 4.43, Stroman 4.58), ERA+ around 90 (Stroman 93, Dickey 97).

While Dickey gives up fewer hits than Stroman, he issues more walks. So Dickey actually has a few more men on base than Stroman. And Dickey gives up quite a few more HRs than Stroman. Why are Dickey's numbers even superficially better? They should be a lot worse.

It's what happens when men get on base. With the bases empty, opposing batters hit .249/.288/.393 against Stroman - when there are baserunners, they hit .300/.353/.450. Which is consistent with his career splits. (Actually, it's not quite as dramatic this year but only because he hasn't been as effective with the bases empty.)

Against Dickey, with the bases empty, opposing batters hit .270./330/.497. But with runners on base, the reverse happens - they're hitting just .224/.317/.420. Which is very, very surprising - and totally out of line with his career splits (it normally doesn't matter whether they are runners on or not.) That performance with runners on base has saved his season, and I think it's a fluke.

Unless Thole had something to do with it, of course!
uglyone - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 08:08 PM EDT (#330050) #
as Mike always points out we probably don't want to look just at earned runs for a knuckleballer. passed balls and wild pitches are a part of their deal. Dickey's ra/9 is significantly worse than stro's, and stroman goes about 10% deeper into each start than dickey does too, on average.

Magpie - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 08:22 PM EDT (#330051) #
passed balls and wild pitches are a part of their deal.

True enough. Dickey's allowed 10 UER, Stroman's allowed 4. Wild pitches don't enter into that, and Stroman's thrown twice as many wild pitches as Dickey anyway. But 6 - fancy that, six! - of Dickey's unearned runs do have a passed ball in the mix.
dan gordon - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 08:27 PM EDT (#330052) #
I was looking at the standings yesterday and I wasn't sure about whether 1st or 2nd looked to be better. Cleveland has been struggling a bit lately, as their starting pitching hasn't been as good as earlier in the year. On the other hand, if you get 1st and play the wild card, you might get a team that has just used its best starter, which would be an advantage. It could be any of about 6 teams, but Boston looks tough. I think I'd probably prefer Cleveland. With Brantley out for the season, their batting order doesn't look all that scary, although they have managed to score more runs than any A.L. team except Boston and Toronto. With their starters not going so well,(with the exception of Kluber)I think they're very beatable.
jerjapan - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 08:37 PM EDT (#330053) #
Let's see if the Jays manage to acquire a LHP before Aug. 31, and then the playoff pitching staff will come into clearer view.  I'm sure they're trying to find one.

Jake McGee?  He's a non-tender candidate for the Rockies and has been great before in the ALE.


uglyone - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 08:37 PM EDT (#330054) #
add 2 more unearned runs today for 12 on the year for dickey, magpie.
uglyone - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 08:39 PM EDT (#330055) #
First place = home field all the way.

I never worry about matchups in the playoffs, as all the teams are good, but home field is a big deal imo.
jerjapan - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 08:43 PM EDT (#330056) #
a competent front office would never choose to carry dead weight of Thole's calibre on the 25-man if there WASN'T some kind of extenuating circumstance involved

That extenuating circumstance is called the knuckleball.
Magpie - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 08:43 PM EDT (#330057) #
add 2 more unearned runs today for 12 on the year for dickey, magpie.

Yup, and now it's 7 involving a PB.
Magpie - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 08:50 PM EDT (#330059) #
Yordano Ventura is pitching against Boston. I'm so confused. Can't I hate everybody?
uglyone - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 08:57 PM EDT (#330060) #
nope.

red sox hate trumps all.
scottt - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 10:09 PM EDT (#330061) #
Dickey is a gold glove fielder and it's almost impossible to steal a base on him.
That plays a huge role on his success with runners on.

scottt - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 10:13 PM EDT (#330062) #
I just think it would be really annoying to play the last 3 against Boston to face them again in the first round.
scottt - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 10:36 PM EDT (#330063) #
Nice 8 run inning there.
uglyone - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 10:38 PM EDT (#330064) #
i am still envisioning the yankees catching the sox.
Magpie - Sunday, August 28 2016 @ 11:15 PM EDT (#330065) #
The Red Sox knocked Ventura out of the game in the fifth inning? And then instantly gave up 8 runs to fall behind by six?

Who says you can't hate everybody! (But yes, this year Red Sox hate trumps everybody. Except, possibly, Trump himself.)
ISLAND BOY - Monday, August 29 2016 @ 06:31 AM EDT (#330066) #
Personally, I just want the Jays to take first place and avoid that dreaded one-game-and-you're-out wild card game. It was great to sweep the Twins,but the pitchers hardly shined (for either side) and the Jays pretty well just clubbed them to death.Meanwhile Boston was playing a much better team in the Royals so we were able to gain a couple of games in the standings.I really don't think the six man rotation is doing the starters any favours, and this past weekend might be giving us an illusionary sense that the team is doing better than it is. Maybe I'm just being a pessimist,but I hope the Jays are well ahead of Boston before that last 3 game series.
scottt - Monday, August 29 2016 @ 07:32 AM EDT (#330067) #
The Jays will have to play better in their 4 road games against the Angels.
We don't know if the 6-man rotation is causing any issues. So far, I'm not impressed with the performances on regular 4-day rest since Sanchez was sent down.

uglyone - Monday, August 29 2016 @ 08:11 AM EDT (#330068) #
when did that happen?

Days of rest between starts since the deadline:

Stroman: 5 5 6 6 5
Dickey: 5 5 6 7 4
Estrada: 4 5 6 7
JA Happ: 4 5 6 7
Liriano: 4 6 6 6
Sanches: 5 6 6
uglyone - Monday, August 29 2016 @ 08:17 AM EDT (#330069) #
The four starts on 4 day rest since the deadline:

Estrada: 7.0ip, 4h, 1er, 0bb, 7k
Happ: 6.0ip, 4h, 1er, 1bb, 6k
Liriano: 6.0ip, 7h, 2er, 2bb, 5k
Dickey: 6.0ip, 6h, 3er, 3bb, 5k
SK in NJ - Monday, August 29 2016 @ 08:49 AM EDT (#330070) #
Since 8/1

Happ: 24.1 IP, 3.33 ERA (3.07 FIP), 10.36 K/9, 1.85 BB/9
Stroman: 31.2 IP, 3.13 ERA (2.49 FIP), 11.08 K/9, 1.42 BB/9
Sanchez: 17 IP, 5.29 ERA (3.15 FIP), 7.41 K/9, 2.65 BB/9
Dickey: 29.0 IP, 3.41 ERA (3.49 FIP), 6.52 K/9, 3.72 BB/9
Liriano: 22.2 IP, 3.97 ERA (4.43 FIP), 9.13 K/9, 3.97 BB/9

I didn't include Estrada since his struggles recently are well known, but the rest of the rotation has been fine in that small sample size. Any struggles or bad individual starts could be just as much coincidence as anything else.

Unless the SP's come out and complain about the extra rest being a burden, I think it's being overblown. We have probably been spoiled by how good the SP has been all season. A little regression is not unusual.
Mike Green - Monday, August 29 2016 @ 09:51 AM EDT (#330073) #
Josh Donaldson had the longest home run of the week.  It wasn't any of yesterday's, but rather a 456 foot blast to center off Jered Weaver.  He had a good weekend in the yardage department, with his homers travelling 417, 405, 424 and 436 feet. 

Speaking of homers, I missed this fine article on Trout's homer against Estrada.  It confirms exactly what I thought at the time- how the hell did Trout hit that pitch out of the park? The take-away: don't try to get Trout out there- low and away or up only. 
uglyone - Monday, August 29 2016 @ 10:23 AM EDT (#330074) #
for any stat nerds like me, fangraphs now gives you the ability to look at multiple splits, which is ridiculously awesome:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/new-interactive-splits-tool/
Mike Green - Monday, August 29 2016 @ 10:58 AM EDT (#330075) #
There's a cool symmetry to the remaining schedule.  The Red Sox and Jays have six games against each of their divisional opponents, three at home and three away.  Both clubs have a 7 game west coast road trip, with the Jays facing the Angels and Mariners, while the Sox face the Padres and Athletics.  The O's have the same pattern with their divisional opponents, but three games at home against the D'Backs and three on the road against the Tigers.
uglyone - Monday, August 29 2016 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#330078) #
Not sure what they're thinking, but they could probably go back to a 5 man rotation right now, while keeping everyone nice and rested, and even skipping the #5 a couple times:

MON Estrada (4 days rest)
TUE Happ (4)
WED Sanchez (10)
THU OFF
FRI Stroman (5)
SAT Estrada (4)
SUN Happ (4)
MON Sanchez (4)
TUE Dickey/Liriano (8/10)
WED Stroman (4)
THU OFF
FRI Estrada (5)
SAT Happ (5)
SUN Sanchez (5)
MON Dickey/Liriano (5)
TUE Stroman (5)
WED Estrada (4)
THU Happ (4)
FRI Sanchez (4)
SAT Dickey/Liriano (4)
SUN Stroman (4)
MON Estrada (4)
TUE Happ (4)
WED Sanchez (4)
THU OFF
FRI Stroman (4)
SAT Estrada (4)
SUN Happ (4)
MON Sanchez (4)
TUE Dickey/Liriano (5)
WED Stroman (4)
THU Estrada (4)
FRI Happ (4)


Estrada - 7 starts
Happ - 7 starts
Sanchez - 6 starts
Stroman - 6 starts
Dickey/Liriano - 4 starts

That would keep Sanchez under 200ip on the season....but i guess they might want him to still have 1 or 2 fewer starts.
Mike Green - Monday, August 29 2016 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#330081) #
Errata for myself and uglyone.  The Jays and Red Sox both have a seventh game left against the Yankees, and in each case the extra game is in New York. For uglyone, the season ends on Sunday.   It'll be interesting how they manage Sanchez' innings in this light.

I'll venture a guess that Sanchez throws the August 31 game in Baltimore, the September 5 game in New York.  the September 10 game at home vs. Boston, the September 24 game in New York and the September 29 game at home vs. Baltimore.  That would set him up to throw the 1st game of the playoffs.  The Jays could push it back a day (to September 23 and September 28) if it looks like they are going to be in the wild card game.  This would mean Liriano and Dickey would get starts in the Sep 9-21 period. 

92-93 - Monday, August 29 2016 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#330082) #
I suspect that the front office is hoping they don't have a real need to shorten it up to 5 guys so they can continue to limit Sanchez's innings while allowing the other SPs to not run up their innings totals before the playoffs. In other words, Dickey is going to keep making starts until the team gets into some real must win situations. If the team goes 5-4 vs BAL/TB/NYY Dickey is going to get a start in the BOS series at home.
uglyone - Monday, August 29 2016 @ 06:43 PM EDT (#330096) #
it's the navarro thing thag makes me think mYbe they're shortening up the rotation.

especially since dickey won't be going in the playoffs, i'd think they wouldn't want to make martin catch dickey down the stretch for no real reason.
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