Batter's Box Interactive Magazine - Font Styles While Harris & Thon Thrash Threshers

Font Styles While Harris & Thon Thrash Threshers

A rough Monday night for the affiliates saw them drop seven out of 10, including a pair of doubleheaders.

Rochester 10 Buffalo 4

Buffalo, NY - The Bisons are back below the .500 mark after a lopsided loss to the Twins affiliate. Scott Diamond (8-12, 3.74) was rocked for seven runs, including a two-run home, on 12 hits and a hit by pitch over six innings. He had seven strikeouts and seven groundouts to his credit. Chad Girodo was lit up for two runs, including a long ball, on three hits in the seventh. Aaron Loup overcame two hits by striking out the side in the eighth. Matt Dermody was nicked for a run on two hits in the ninth.

Matt Dominguez made sure the Herd would not be shutout with a leadoff homer in the fourth and he knocked home two more with a single in the seventh, scoring base hits by Casey Kotchman and Andy Burns. Kotchman drove home a Chris Colabello single with another single in the eighth. Dominguez and Kotchman were the three-hit duo and Burns had two. Dalton Pompey singled and walked and Jesus Montero had a base hit. Ezequiel Carrero was 0-for-5, Ryan Goins was 0-for-4 and Erik Kratz was 0-for-3 with a walk.

New Hampshire 4 Binghamton 1

Manchester, NH - A leadoff home run by Christian Lopes in the bottom of the first set the tone in a victory over the Mets. A Richard Urena RBI groundout and a Dwight Smith Jr. base hit in the fifth highlighted a three-run fifth. Lopes, Rowdy Tellez and Ian Parmley all had a couple of hits. Emilio Guerrero and Roemon Fields had the others.

Wilmer Font (3-0, 1.96) had the type of performance you like to see with seven innings of three-hit ball, walking one and whiffing nine. He retired 10 in a row at one point for a Game Score of 83. Murphy Smith could not preserve the shutout as he gave up a run in the eighth on three hits and a walk but struck out two over two frames.

Dunedin 4 Clearwater 1

Clearwater, FL - A three-run home run by Dickie Joe Thon in the eighth inning turned out to be the difference in helping the Jays defeat the Phillies affiliate. Anthony Alford had a two-out single to drive in the game's first run in the fifth and added another single in front of Thon's three-run blast. D.J. Davis started the eighth-inning rally with a leadoff walk and scored the game's first run after reaching on an error. Thon had two hits, a walk and a stolen base. Danny Jansen added the other base hit and also swiped a bag. Jorge Flores had a base on balls but Ryan McBroom, Matt Dean, J.D. Davis and Aaron Attaway were 0-for-4.

Jon Harris (2-1, 1.96) matched his career-high longest outing with 7-2/3 innings of one-run ball. He matched the five baserunners he allowed (three hits, a walk and hit by pitch) with five strikeouts. Eight of his 15 outs in play were on the ground as he earned a Game Score of 80. Dusty Isaacs had one ball four but struck out four batters swinging for the four-out save to get save number four. Note the four times the number four was used in the previous sentence.

Great Lakes 7 Lansing 1

Lansing, MI - The Dodgers affiliate took the pitchfork to Angel Perdomo for six runs over 4-2/3 innings. Two of the six runs were unearned after an error by Justin Atkinson at first that added to Perdomo's woes in a four-run second. The damage was done on eight hits and three walks. He struck out four and induced a half-dozen outs on the ground. Dan Lietz stranded his lone inherited runner but he also had trouble finding the plate by walking three. He gave up a run and a hit but also struck out four over 2-1/3 innings. Danny Young got away with two hits, a walk and a plunk over two scoreless frames.

Ryan Hissey drove in the only Lansing run with a double in the fourth to plate a John La Prise single. Juan Kelly had a double for the only other Lugnuts hit. Connor Panas walked twice but Lane Thomas struck out three times in a 0-for-4 night at the plate.

Vancouver 6 Hillsboro 4

J.B Woodman's second home run of the season turned out to be the winning run in Hillsboro Monday.

Hillsboro, OR - The C's rattled off runs in the first four innings and that was just enough to beat the Diamondbacks affiliate. RBI groundouts by Jacob Anderson and Rodrigo Orozco plated singles by J.B. Woodman and Bryan Lizardo in the first two frames. Cavan Biggio tripled home a Joshua Palacios base hit in the third before scoring on a Javier Hernandez single. J.B. Woodman went oppo-taco with a home run to left field in the fourth. They didn't score again until the ninth when Biggio brought in a Palacios single with a base hit. Nash Knight had a 4-for-5 night at the plate while Palacios and Biggio had three apiece. Yeltsin Gudino was 0-for-3 with a walk.

Patrick Murphy earned his third win of the season to lower his Northwest League-leading ERA to 2.48.

Patrick Murphy (3-4, 2.48) scattered seven hits and a walk, giving up just one run in 5-2/3 innings. He rung up five batters and had nine of his 11 outs in play handled by his infielders. Gabe Noyalis stranded a runner for Murphy in the sixth but was knocked around for three runs on three hits in the seventh. Grayson Huffman walked one and matched Noyalis in the strikeout column with one. Nick Hartman gave up a two-out hit but struck out one in the ninth for his first professional save.

Elizabethton 7 Bluefield 6 (Game 1 - 9 Innings)

Bluefield, WV - A couple of big home runs and a couple of late runs gave the Twins the victory over the Bluef-Jays. Yennsy Diaz was dinged for a two-run home run, a three-run shot and six hits overall over 3-1/3 innings. He walked three and struck out only one. Hunter Barnett settled things down by stranding two Diaz runners and tossing 1-2/3 innings of one-hit ball. He got help from Nick Sinay, who threw out a runner at the plate from center field to end the fifth. Kelyn Jose also contributed shutout relief for two innings, walking one and striking out one. Andrew Deramo (0-3) gave up the tying and losing runs on three hits and a walk. The last run was unearned on a hit, two wild pitches and a throwing error by catcher Ridge Smith. However, Smith threw out the next runner trying to steal to end the eighth.

Bluefield began to chip away at a 3-0 deficit on a Vladimir Guerrero Jr. sacrifice fly after Sinay was hit by a pitch and advanced to third on a Kalik May base hit in the first. The Jays were down 5-1 before Smith and Jesus Severino cut into the lead with RBI singles along with a May sac fly in the fourth. They tied it in the fifth on yet another run-scoring fly ball by Bradley Jones to bring in a Javier Monzon triple. Monzon gave the Jays their only lead in the seventh when he singled and stole second before going the rest of the way on a passed ball and an error by the Twins catcher. Monzon, Jones and Severino shared the hit lead with two apiece. Smith and Sinay also drew a walk to get on base twice and May got aboard again by taking one for the team.

Elizabethton 4 Bluefield 1 (Game 2 - 7 Innings)

Bluefield, WV - The Twins pulled off the doubleheader sweep by getting to Osman Gutierrez (3-3, 3.33) in the third inning. He set down six of the first seven hitters he faced but he was gutted for three third-inning runs, all unearned, after his own throwing error allowed the leadoff man to reach base. He pitched into the seventh but could not retire any of the two hitters he faced. Stuart Holmes could only strand one of the two runners Gutierrez left behind as he uncorked a run-scoring wild pitch. Gutierrez gave up five hits and two walks but struck out seven with nine outs on the diamond. Holmes struck out one in a shutout inning.

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. had a deep enough fly ball to score a Nick Sinay leadoff walk in the sixth for Bluefield's only run. Guerrero also singled for a 1-for-2 night at the dish. Reggie Pruitt, Levi Scott, Matt Morgan and Juandy Mendoza all had base raps. Javier Monzon was hit by a pitch in the sixth inning and was ejected along with the Twins shortstop in the seventh.

GCL Phillies 7 GCL Blue Jays 5 (Game 1 - 9 Innings)

Dunedin, FL - Lane Thomas got the Jays in flight with a leadoff double in the first and he came home on a Jon Berti single to tie the game at 1-1. Berti would steal second and third but he would be stranded there. Francisco Rodriguez cashed home the second run with a single to plate a David Jacob base knock in the fourth. Back-to-back doubles by Chavez Young and Norberto Obeso produced the third G-Jays run before Obeso stole third and scampered home on an throwing error by the catcher in the eighth. Yorman Rodriguez led off the ninth with a home run and Manuel Herazo singled with two outs to bring up Young as the potential tying run but Young grounded out to end the game. Herazo had the lone two-hit game for the Blue Jays.

Josh Winckowski pitched the first inning and was victimized for an unearned run (Kevin Vicuna error at second) on two hits but the 2016 15th-round pick struck out a pair. Alvardo Galindo (1-1) was gonged for four runs on three hits and three walks while whiffing two over two-plus innings. Yonardo Herdenez tossed the final six frames and gave up a two-run homer and three other hits but his K-BB total was 6-0.

GCL Phillies 4 GCL Blue Jays 0 (Game 2 - 7 Innings)

Dunedin, FL - The Phillies completed the doubleheader sweep by scoring three times in the first and once in the second off Maximo Castillo (1-2, 5.28). The 17-year old Venezuelan did go five innings but coughed up seven hits, including a solo homer, and two walks. He only struck out one but had eight outs on the ground. Orlando Pascual overwhelmed the Phillies by striking out five over two perfect frames.

Norberto Obeso and Alfredo Bohorquez had the only Blue Jay hits. Mitch Nay made his 2016 debut but struck out twice in his only two at-bats.

DSL Diamondbacks 5 DSL Blue Jays 4

Boca Chica, DR - The Diamondbacks got to the Blue Jays early and late in this one. Anderson Nunez walked the first hitter of the game and allowed a two-run homer two batters later but he put up five zeros after that by scattering two other hits and a walk. Nunez struck out four and had nine groundball outs. He sat down the last 11 hitters he faced for a Game Score of 58. Danilo Manzeuta (0-2) gave up a run in the seventh before getting dinged for a two-run homer in the eighth. That was among six hits on Manzueta's pitching line which also included a strikeout over three innings. Four of his seven outs in play were on the ground.

The Jays did not score until the seventh when an Antonio Concepion two-run single and an error produced three runs to score a Jose Theran double, a Yhordegny Kelly walk and Luis De Los Santos single. Theran started the eighth with a single and would get around the bases on a couple of errors. Andres Guerra worked a two-out walk in the ninth but Yeison Estevez struck out to end the game.

Monday's Linescores

*** 3 Stars!!! ***

3. Dickie Joe Thon, Dunedin

2. Jon Harris, Dunedin

1. Wilmer Font, New Hampshire

Tuesday's Schedule/Probable Starters

T.J. Zeuch looks to cap off Vancouver's series in Hillsboro with his first professional win.

DSL Blue Jays @ DSL Diamondbacks, 10:30 am ET - TBA
Vancouver @ Hillsboro, 4:05 pm ET - T.J. Zeuch (0-1, 3.50)
Binghamton @ New Hampshire, 6:05 pm ET (DH) - TBA/Taylor Cole (3-4, 3.97)
Daytona @ Dunedin, 6:30 pm ET - Conor Fisk (7-3, 3.33)
Bluefield @ Princeton, 7:00 pm ET - TBA
GCL Blue Jays @ GCL Phillies, 7:00 pm ET - TBA
Rochester @ Buffalo, 7:05 pm ET - Chris Leroux (7-9, 4.52)
Great Lakes @ Lansing, 7:05 pm ET - Ryan Borucki (8-3, 2.45)

Extra Innings

The Buffalo News chats with Scott Copeland about his Korean baseball experience and talks to Ryan Goins about his demotion to the Herd.
Ballpark Digest says the New Hampshire Fisher Cats are taking extra precautions for fan safety for the last month of the year.
Clutchlings checks out the progress of Justin Maese.
The Vancouver Province has a story on J.B. Woodman and another on Joshua Palacios.
MiLB.com has a good read on Bluefield's Bradley Jones.

And finally, your random blast from the past Blue Jays minor leaguer of the day.

Posted by #2JBrumfield on Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 02:02 AM EDT.

Font Styles While Harris & Thon Thrash Threshers | 62 comments | Create New Account

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

scottt - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 06:29 AM EDT (#329077) #

I don't know how Goins could be surprised to end up at AAA, but he's showing the right attitude.
That's all that matters.

uglyone - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 09:42 AM EDT (#329080) #

The 2016 draft class is making a great first impression.

bpoz - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 11:01 AM EDT (#329082) #

I expect Goins to be called up within a week. It is almost Sept 1 so rosters expand. Burning an option or saving it is a time span of 1 week. So 21 days after the Aug 2 optioning is when Goins last option is used up.

uglyone - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 11:16 AM EDT (#329084) #

you guys WANT goins back up?

mathesond - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 11:18 AM EDT (#329085) #

you guys WANT Goins back up?

You can never have enough cheerleaders!

Dewey - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 11:47 AM EDT (#329088) #

Am I the only Goins supporter on Da Box? Why must he be dumped on so
often? He couldn�t provide *less* value to the team at his worst than
Upton and Smoak have been doing lately. And Barney, who I also like a
lot, has cooled off dramatically. I don�t understand the real animus
towards Goins that emanates from scottt�s posts and some others. What
exactly did he do to you? The guy is a magnificent fielder and has at
least had periods of adequate hitting. He�s not a contemptible burden,
guys. Chill. At least a bit.

jerjapan - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#329094) #

I like Goins too Dewey, although with the way he was hitting in Toronto I'm fine with him in AAA till September.

Does anyone know definitively if Barney is arb-eligible next year? I've seen him listed as both a FA and as a 3rd year arb guy.

If Barney isn't back, Goins is a perfectly good Johnny Mac type reserve.

Mike Green - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#329099) #

Dewey, you are not alone. Ryan Goins is a pretty good bench player despite his struggles with the bat early this year. He had plenty of company (Martin, Tulo and Thole were also far, far below their career norms in the first month and a half). He's hit better in triple A than he has at any time in his minor league career, and I expect that he would recover from the early 2016 career trough to his normal performance if the need arises. He may indeed be a somewhat better player than Barney vs. RHPs, as their respective career marks would suggest.

PeterG - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 04:31 PM EDT (#329100) #

I too like Goins and would prefer him over Barney as a bench player next season although it may be possible that there is room for both.

uglyone - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#329102) #

I guess the offseason calls to make Goins a starter ahead of Travis, or trade Tulo to make room for him, or even the assumption that he was obviously better than Barney, soured me on him pretty bad.

He's an ok bench player but imo his defense isn't quite as good as advertised and not only is he weak with the bat but he's weak in the worst way - he's a hacker up there who can't work a count to save his life. not a guy you want bunting or being responsible for moving guys over.

I don't mind Goins being in the mix and fighting to earn a spot but I hope we never hand him a spot like that again.

bpoz - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#329106) #

Regarding Goins. I do not expect players to become stars from out of nowhere. Like Bautista, Donaldson and EE.
Goins IMO has proven to have Major league value defensively as a utility player. SS, 2B and 3B to rest players and play regularly in case of injury.
I suspect that every team has 1 utility IF. His main value being defense. The Jays probably had a good one for 5 years before Goins took the job.
By saving the option he gets to ride the Toronto/ Buffalo shuttle next year. But for the 8 days before rosters expand he could hurt the team by occupying a crucial 25 man spot.

Then again if you cut him for the purpose of avoiding Arb that he has qualified for, the Jays or another team can sign him for a lower amount, as a FA, than the potential Arb amount he may be awarded.

4th OFs and utility IFs can easily be brought in as Non Roster invitees to ST. But I do not mean to suggest that it is a non crucial part of the FOs master plan.

jamesq - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 07:26 PM EDT (#329112) #

regarding Goins, wasn't an option used when he was sent to Buffalo?

scottt - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 07:54 PM EDT (#329114) #

An option is used when a player spends 20 days in the minor. Goins has played 22 games in Buffalo this year.

PeterG - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 08:10 PM EDT (#329116) #

Some of the games were on injury rehab, however, and may not count towards the 20. I don't think that they do but am not at all certain. Perhaps someone who is, will clarify.

Connor Fisk is putting up more zeros for Dunedin and he has done a lot of that lately. Perhaps moving into the fringe prospect category with a chance to continue upward if this continues.

ISLAND BOY - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 08:10 PM EDT (#329117) #

Goins really took a step forward batting wise last year, but I don't know what happened to him this season. None the less, I'm a fan of him and with a career fielding percentage of .990 I don't know how anybody can say he's not an exemplary fielder. By the way, I've never noticed Wilmer Font before. He has good stats but I've never heard of him mentioned as a prospect.

scottt - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 08:23 PM EDT (#329121) #

Wilmer Font was playing for the Ottawa Champions in the independant CanAm League and signed a contract to replace Wade Leblanc in Buffalo. He had 3 starts for the Bisons, went 1-2 with an ERA over 4 and they swapped him with Casey Lawrence who was in AA.

Doom Service - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#329126) #

Wilmer Font is 26, and rather large (6-4, 265 on baseball reference). Signed as a 16-year old with Texas in 2006(!), he pitched in the big leagues in 2012 and 2013, but just 5 games, He has traditionally had issues with control, walking more than 4.5/9 IP through his minor league career (and 6 in 3.1 IP in the big leagues).

Shoeless Joe - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 10:17 PM EDT (#329131) #

RE: The 2016 draft class is making a great first impression.

How is the 2016 class making a great first impression?

uglyone - Tuesday, August 16 2016 @ 11:39 PM EDT (#329143) #

OF J.Palacios (20, A-): 91pa, 14.3bb%/16.5k%, .426babip/.342avg, .118iso, 161wrc+
CF J.Woodman (21, A-): 203pa, 14.3bb%/31.0k%, .443babip/.292avg, .155iso, 139wrc+
2B C.Biggio (21, A-): 203pa, 11.8bb%/10.8k%, .331babip/.291avg, .080iso, 119wrc+
RH T.Zeuch (20, A-): 18.0ip, 23.6k%/5.6bb%, 3.50era, 3.24fip
RH Z.Jackson (21, A-): 10.0ip, 24.4k%/17.8bb%, 4.50era, 3.94fip
SS B.Bichette (18, Rk): 84pa, 6.0bb%/20.2k%, .483babip/.421avg, .303iso, 230wrc+

It's really pretty impressive all around, even if a bunch of those guys in Vancouver should probably move up a level or two at their age.

dan gordon - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 12:37 AM EDT (#329146) #

I was thinking the same thing, that the 2016 draft has had some very good early results. In addition to those 6, who were the top 6 Jays' picks, catcher Ryan Gold is hitting .309 with an .837 OPS in the Gulf Coast League and is just 18, P Andy Ravel has an ERA of 3.09 and a WHIP of 1.16 with Vancouver, catcher Ridge Smith has an OPS of .856 in Bluefield, former catcher Chris Hall has an ERA of 2.75 and WHIP of 1.17 in Bluefield, 3B Brad Jones has 10 HR's, 12 SB's and a .788 OPS in Bluefield, RP Angel Alicea has some excellent numbers including 32 K's in 23.3 IP in Bluefield, Connor Eller has an ERA of 1.57 and Whip of 0.77 in Bluefield, 1B David Jacob is hitting very well for the Gulf Coast team, although he is a couple of years too old for that level, P Brayden Boucher has struck out 29 in 18.3 IP at 2 levels, P Jared Carkuff is another guy too old for the Gulf Coast League, but he has produced an ERA of 1.45, WHIP of 1.07 and 26 K's to just 3 BB's. Of course, the vast majority of these guys will never make it, but it's nice to see so many performing well in their first pro season.

scottt - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 07:56 AM EDT (#329150) #

Barney was non-tendered, but still having less then 6 years of service time probably qualifies for arbitration.
Goins should be out of options. They both play good defense. Barney has been better at the bat.
Over their career, Goins has averaged nearly twice the strikeouts and an OBP of .268 compared to .295 for Barney.
Subjectively, in their time in Toronto, Goins has had a hot streak, Barney has had a slump.
I kinda like having a LHB backing up two righties, but the player need to have some platoon value.

There's no room on the roster for both unless Tulo or Travis are on the DL.

85bluejay - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 08:33 AM EDT (#329154) #

It is a decent start but I usually wait until the 1st full season to get excited about a draft especially when most of the top picks are college guys playing amongst HS players - Look back on some of the awesome stats. put up initially during Ricciardi's tenure by a plethora of college suspects beating up on younger players & the excitement here at the box about our "awesome" prospects.

uglyone - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 09:27 AM EDT (#329158) #

here I am trying to say nice things about new management and you hit me for it! :)

it's a nice first impression, that's all.

PeterG - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 10:23 AM EDT (#329163) #

You are correct Ugly. It is an excellent first impression and if it continues may well turn out to be the best Jays draft of the last decade. The first summer of returns has been that good.

jerjapan - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 10:34 AM EDT (#329165) #

Definitely we need more info on some of those late-draft college pitchers that are dominating the young guys, especially the relievers - a guy like Angel Alicea, 20th rounder, will turn 22 in a few weeks, so he should be (and is) dominating the rookie leaguers.

Ugly's right to cite our top 5 picks excellent starts though, which combine nicely with their pedigree to look promising. And nice to see a couple of the late-round young'uns off to good starts in Hosterman and Gold - it's a good sign (SSS aside) when a high school kid starts off well in pro ball.

When did Goins injury rehab assignment end? Can we call him up when rosters expand and save that final option year? If 2015 Goins was the high water mark for his bat, an extra option adds a lot to his value. With Burns and some of the AA guys, we have a lot of potential utility guys.

jerjapan - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#329167) #

It is an excellent first impression and if it continues may well turn out to be the best Jays draft of the last decade

They've got a long way to go to match 2012 (Stroman and Alford) and 2010 (Thor, Sanchez, Dyson, Pompey, Barnes plus 4 guys traded in some of our blockbusters). I don't think AA had a single bad draft, and his years showed riskier draft strategies, so the floor on this years crop will naturally be a bit higher.

PeterG - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 11:04 AM EDT (#329168) #

Good info Dan. We could also add #10 Kirby Snead who is already at High A Dunedin and has been noticed outside of the BJ organization.

dan gordon - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#329202) #

I thought about Snead. Note that his first game was at Dunedin, and he was then sent to Lansing, where he remains. Hosterman is very young, turns 18 this week. Nice to see him striking out almost a batter an inning, even though he's walked a lot in a very small number of innings. He's certainly one to watch. Totally agree that it's far too early to get excited about these guys, but the good first season is a lot nicer to see than a bad first season. I was a bit concerned about the drafting history of the new regime at Cleveland - it would be interesting to know how much they relied on the existing Blue Jays brain trust for this year's draft.

hypobole - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 06:38 PM EDT (#329205) #

Some GM's make zero draft picks - that is all on the scouting director. Others make the 1st round picks, very few after.

This is from 2011

"Chris Antonetti -- Cleveland Indians: The scouting director makes the final call on the draft with input from the GM and assistant general manager. Antonetti does not personally scout any players. He tries to approach the draft the same way he approaches trades. He takes all of the information from his evaluators, challenges them by asking the right questions and lets them do their job. The Indians will take the best player available in the first round, after that, draft strategy factors into the scouting director's decisions. These draft strategies could include but are not limited to: positional needs, signability, makeup, physical attributes and the possibilities of a certain player not being available in the next round based on club intelligence."

And just as I'm about to post this, Shapiro fires Brian Parker.

hypobole - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#329206) #

Here's the link to Parker's dismissal.

hypobole - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#329207) #

http://www.baseballamerica.com/draft/blue-jays-fire-scouting-director-national-crosschecker/#FB1wpZMkqSoPEZOf.97

85bluejay - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 07:44 PM EDT (#329213) #

Well Parker could have just drafted the next Mike Trout and he was going to get fired - Shapiro wants his own guy (expected when a new outside boss arrives) - maybe Parker ends up in LA or wherever AA gets his next GM gig (Arizona?) - Next year's draft will have the fingerprints of the Shapiro regime.

jerjapan - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 09:58 PM EDT (#329219) #

Uff. This is the first Shapiro move I've strongly disliked since that "Darth Vader" start to his tenure - his results have spoken for themselves and I am happy to admit that I was overly negative about the guy - but Parker's results also speak positively for themselves, and Cleveland's drafting was basically terrible during Shapiro's tenure.

I have limited hope that whoever he hires will be better, given his previous record. But I certainly will be happy if I'm wrong again!

SK in NJ - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 10:21 PM EDT (#329221) #

I doubt any GM has much say in the draft beyond the 1st round talent. They simply don't have the time to scout so many players, and likely take the word of their scouting teams when deciding who to pick. To AA's credit, he hired some good scouts. We'll see who Shapiro hires. It was definitely inevitable. I kind of liked the idea of having Shapiro/Atkins player development emphasis + AA's scouting team, but you couldn't expect Shapiro to keep the previous regime in tact for much longer. Atkins likely has his own guys and they will start to put their fingerprints on the roster.

jerjapan - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 10:25 PM EDT (#329222) #

I dunno SK, everyone says the new boss wants his own guys, but is there evidence that this is true? wouldn't it make sense that you keep the better talent of the FO roster you inherit? Especially when your track record is terrible in the area in question, and the firee has a good one?

Kasi - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 10:34 PM EDT (#329223) #

That was the guy from 2012 onwards. Here are his first round picks. Phil Bickford (2013), Jeff Hoffman (2014, since traded to the Rockies), Jon Harris (2015) and T.J. Zeuch (2016). I don't think its a terrible loss. The best Jays drafts were 2010 and 2011.

jerjapan - Wednesday, August 17 2016 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#329224) #

Well aware of that Kasi.

and, uhhh .... those guys are all excellent prospects. And are we still talking about unsigned picks? It's a strategy (see Stroman, Marcus), it gives us negotiating leverage, and the Bickford pick yielded Pentacost - who is raking, and would be a top prospect if he wasn't coming back from injury. Hoffman was a fantastic pick, possibly number 1 but fell due to health issues - and recovered fully. We've got Tulo largely as a result of that pick ... Harris was considered a great pick at the time and while Uglyone may disagree, he looks good for his draft position. As does Zeuch.

I hope you aren't confusing older and better here, but obviously the prospects Parker got are further away than those Tinnish got- and thus perhaps off the radar of people, like yourself, who have argued that it's too hard to evaluate the quality of minor leaguers unless you are a pro.

2010 was the best of the AA tenure, I've said that here many times, but Andrew Tinnish also had 3 comp 1st rounders (thanks to AA gaming the system). He had FOUR in 2011, but given that advantage, 2011 is already clearly worse than 2012 (unless you are a big Dwight Smith fan). I would argue that 2013 is also clearly better than 2011, 2014 probably is, and 2015 may be the only year that you are correct about (and that's still a may - I like Justin Maese quite a bit, and while I don't see Harris as a front of the rotation guy, I think his floor is high).

Kasi - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 12:03 AM EDT (#329225) #

Here is another article that sums up my thoughts.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/08/blue-jays-shake-up-scouting-department-leadership.html

Basically don't think any of the pitchers are likely to be stars. Pentecost is fine but likely doesn't have a position right now so his bat has to be very good. I just don't think the drafts have been that outstanding, obviously your opinion differs. Likely the reason they parted ways is they wanted to go a different route on drafting strategy, especially focus on RH projection picks.

jerjapan - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 12:28 AM EDT (#329226) #

Sorry Kasi, but an MLB Trade Rumour's link is evidence of nothing other than that an event happened. (I thought about this sentence Dewey, swear to God).

Our opinions often differ and that IS fine, but please acknowledge at least that you don't really follow the minors? You have said this several times before, that we non professional fans can't possibly understand the minor leagues at a meaningful level.

If you want to default to 'different opinions are equally valuable' without investing time in researching your opinion, I'm going to have to strongly disagree. Your statement about the best drafts of the AA era was simply wrong (objectively, or as least, as objectively as we can get round here). It's not an opinion, it's an error. Disagree? Pick a metric / method and let's compare, but I'm not gonna do the work first if you can't be bothered. You linked to a prospect list put together by a 16 year old this summer if I remember correctly, and now MLB Trade Rumours?

BTW, I find you to be very informed on almost all the topics we discuss here - often moreso than I - other than this specific topic.

hypobole - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 02:29 AM EDT (#329229) #

We don't know the dynamics of the scouting department, just what we see from the outside.

As much as the "draft guys and don't sign them" philosophy is being enthusiastically praised here, I have never heard one outside observer agree with that position. Parker also seems to have have used high draft picks on a questionable makeup guy (Hollon) and injured guys (Hoffman and Patrick Murphy). Hoffman is the only one of those 3 that seems to be panning out.

hypobole - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 03:41 AM EDT (#329231) #

"You linked to a prospect list put together by a 16 year old this summer if I remember correctly"

No, you don't remember correctly, but I do.

You were arguing our system was middle of the pack, I thought somewhere in the 20's. I tried to find a prospect list and google did come up with one on mlb.com.

I neglected to read the preamble, which pointed out the author was a 16 yr old. I quickly checked the Jays ranking, which was in the 20's, and posted it. It was not Kasi.

Humorous aside - when the reputable lists did start getting posted by Sickles, BA, Law etc, it turns out the 16 yr old was much closer in his evaluation of our system than the self-styled "expert" on this board.

SK in NJ - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 07:37 AM EDT (#329234) #

jerjapan, it comes down to who Shapiro trusts to hold the position. He kept LaCava on board, so he will keep inherited front office people that he likes. Obviously based on the firing of Parker, he feels he can upgrade that spot. We will see if he's right, but at the end of the day, he wasn't going to live off AA's guys for too long.

uglyone - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 11:26 AM EDT (#329241) #

Parker (4 drafts)

Graveman
Boyd
Girodo

Tellez
Reid-Foley
Hoffman
Pentecost
Greene
Maese
Jansen
Harris
Zeuch
Bichette
Palacios
Woodman
Biggio

to be honest I'm not sure that's all that great. not bad though.

but the 3yrs prior with Tinnish in charge seem much better:

Syndergaard
Sanchez
Stroman
Pillar
Dyson
Desclafani

Pompey
Musgrove
Norris
Alford

Burns
Barnes
Nicolino
Woj
Nolin

Kasi - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#329242) #

Sorry jerjapan like hyperbole said you remember wrong. However you are right that I don't super follow closely the minors. I just read what Sickels, Law, Fangraphs, Baseball America and others write. And that shows us to not have a very highly rated minor league system. You don't have to take every post as to be a reason to discredit someone to prop up your points.

Tbh all I did was a short mental exercise of the list uglyone just posted here. I read what drafts Parker was in charge of. I split the guys into the list that UO did and I liked the Tinnish drafts much more, not just because of quantity but because of the quality of the players drafted. Thus losing Parker is no big deal imho.

SK in NJ - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#329244) #

Yeah, I just looked at the drafts from 2010-12 vs. 2013-15 (too early to tell with 2016), and it's pretty clear that 2010-12 was the superior draft period. That could be partially because of the old CBA (no salary restrictions, Type A/B compensation, etc), but strictly from a talent standpoint, the Tinnish lead drafts were remarkably better. The breakdown uglyone listed really illustrates the difference.

Maybe moving Tinnish back to that role if he's open to it would be the way to go (assuming he's still around, I don't keep track of that stuff).

uglyone - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 11:57 AM EDT (#329245) #

for the record the offseason dispute was between the system being "average" or "moderately below average".

And perhaps surprisingly (or maybe not), the statistical performance of the system this year actually deserves a better descriptor than either of those labels.

I'd be surprised if anyone could find many other systems that have performed better by the numbers this year.

The argument for this being a below average system right now requires believing that we have somehow collected a bunch of kids with the special ability of performing like top prospects without actually being top prospects.

Kasi - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 12:00 PM EDT (#329246) #

Yeah Tinnish is still here as assistant GM, so it's possible he was part of this decision as well. It's not like they just fired him as well. I doubt he wants to go back to scouting director since that is a demotion, but I'd hope they elicit his feedback in choosing the new scouting director. The fact they released the checker makes me wonder if there is more to this they're not making public.

And yeah that list was dramatic to me, although my mental list was much shallower than that. I just feel these last drafts have too many position players who are one sided (Tellez has significant splits, Pentecost is likely not going to be a C, etc) and pitchers who are either 4/5 guys or going to be moved to the bullpen. Now there are still a few guys there I have hopes for, but I don't see Greene or Reid-Foley or Harris as anything more than a number 3 starter at the MLB level. I hope I'm wrong though.

uglyone - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 12:58 PM EDT (#329252) #

I think reid-foley and tellez are a cut above those other three you named, and have a shot at being impact players.

along with alford urena and guerrero.

maese is looming interesting as well.

hypobole - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 01:05 PM EDT (#329255) #

A few thoughts.

Boyd and Graveman were huge success stories, but how much credit should Parker, scouts or even player development get for those 2? They were drafted specifically to free up pool money for other signings.

Graveman was an $5K bonus org guy until he accidentally learned to throw a cutter in the middle of a game. It was that out pitch that turned him into a real prospect with value.

Boyd did get $75K, but that was also well below slot. It was his velocity spike after being drafted that propelled his status and value.

On the other hand, even if Pentacost (who's injured once again) never pans out, it was a good pick derailed by unforseen injuries. Can't blame Parker for that.

IMO Parker's 1st 3 picks in 2013 were highly questionable. And in that draft, the Jays ended up holding onto, I believe, $400K in unspent pool money. To me, that was inexcusable.

Kasi - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 01:14 PM EDT (#329256) #

Well sure I'm more positive about Alford, Urena and Guerrero too. They're not guys that Parker drafted though. Tellez I have concerns both about his ability to play defense and that he can't hit LHP. Reid-Foley I agree is the pitcher I'm holding out the most hope for. Maese might surprise as well.

uglyone - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 01:35 PM EDT (#329258) #

yeah sorry brain fart there. forgot what we were talking about.

on that note - how much influence did parker have over IFAs Osuna/Urena/Guerrero/Castro/Barreto etc.?

Kasi - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#329259) #

Who knows. We have no information on it. Just like we have no information on whether LaCava or Shapiro or someone else entirely was responsible for the Chavez trade or the Happ signing or the Estrada one. That's one thing that makes these classifications of moves silly. Shapiro himself is really the only person you can blame in the end, because he has the final say on all moves. But we have very little inside information about what exactly goes on inside the org and who pushed ideas for specific moves or draft picks.

hypobole - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 01:58 PM EDT (#329260) #

What we do know is the Dodgers hired our director of Latin American operations Ismael Cruz last November. Coupled with the seemingly good signings while with the Jays suggests he was the one most responsible.

Kasi - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 02:32 PM EDT (#329262) #

Yeah I suppose it could be considered a good thing to some that the Dodgers didn't poach our national scouting staff.

jerjapan - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 03:07 PM EDT (#329264) #

Thanks for the correction on my memory lapse and apologies for the error! Hypobole, I'm no expert. I like poking at received wisdom and trying to encourage debate. All that debate in the summer actually convinced me that 18th best or so (where I thought we were) was a bit too high - but I still think I was correct that the system had tons of low level talent and was better than people thought. (It makes sense - the drafting focus was on tools rather than being close to the bigs). I think the results at the lower levels of the minors this year bear me out.

Try as I might, I don't see what's so great about the 2011 draft. The question about how much cred does Parker get for Graveman is a great one - the best pick in 2011 was easily Pillar in the 32nd round - how much credit do you deserve for a longshot like that? I for one think you've gotta go with results - like Kasi says, it's a messy picture.

So credit for Pillar ... but Tinnish had five 1st rounders and came away with Jacob Anderson, Joe Musgrove, Dwight Smith and Kevin Comer - 3 total busts and one legit prospect who has yet to establish himself in the bigs. Sure, we basically punted out pick to 2012 when we didn't sign Beede, but the credit for Stroman goes to the 2012 draft. After Pillar we get DeSclafani and a bunch of faded prospects - Daniel Norris may still be good, but Stilson? Robson? Dean? those were some of those most highly touted guys. Andy Burns looks like a decent 28th guy on a 25 man roster. Who is left? Dragmire? Christian Lopes? David Rollins did make the bigs at least, but that WHIP was nearly 2.

The results for the top picks in 2013 aren't great, but Hollon still has plenty of promise (does he have makeup issues beyond the steroids?) and Murphy is back off injury and pitching well - he, like Hoffman, was available where we got him (and under slot) because of the injury - the willingness to draft injured guys can be a real advantage. We traded 3 guys drafted that year for legit assets and still have Tellez and Greene. Bickford looks great to me - we just didn't sign him.

I did not know we had money left over after that draft though - that certainly is a failure. I guess that money was for Bickford, but you've gotta have a couple of HS kids with upside that you pick who you can sign as insurance - another Rowdy Tellez and that's a strong draft.

I do think Tinnish was the better drafter (even with the extra picks), and certainly do feel better about the Parker firing given that he's assistant GM. But those Cleveland drafts don't lie - I'm very nervous about Shapiro going anywhere near the draft, even if it's just to hire a director. I'm really worried it will be someone from Cleveland, although they have certainly done a better job drafting under Antonetti.

PeterG - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 03:40 PM EDT (#329266) #

I think direction will come more from Atkins than Shapiro as we move forward. Antonetti was able to make his own decisions for the most part. As Atkins becomes more experienced, the same will likely be true of him. We probably won't know what draft direction will be till we see it. I do think that Parker was directed to change things up some this year as it was a different type of draft to 2015 and I think, a better one.

hypobole - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#329268) #

jerjapan - agree with you on the 2011 draft. Funny that of the 4 supplemental guys you mentioned, the only one who made it was the "value pick" Musgrove.

Clinton Hollon reportedly had makeup and injury issues prior to the draft and since has had TJ, a 50 game amphetamine suspension, and just as that suspension was up, another 50 game drug of abuse suspension.

We have lots of scouts - we should be drafting better than other teams.

The injured guys we drafted for the most part have not panned out - Murphy 4 drafts ago still in short season, Smoral 5 drafts ago the same and seemingly ripe for release, Stilson as you mentioned, unsigned 2011 5th rounder Andrew Chin drafted later by the Yankees released after 2 seasons. Those just off the top of my head. Hoffman seems the outlier.

The other factor is our player development system - I know years back it drew a lot of criticism, but seems better lately. Probably find out after the minor league seasons wind down if the new regime agrees, by how much shake-up there is on that end.

Mike Green - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#329269) #

My impression was that there were significant player development changes in personnel that came a little late in the off-season, and it took a month for the new people to get into it. Pat Hentgen moved from the big-league club to player development in about March and I believe there may have been other changes associated with the high performance group.

Since May 1, the progress of many prospects in the system has been very good.

scottt - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 06:45 PM EDT (#329271) #

All I can really say is that it's hard to go watch an indie game when the team is struggling and the Blue Jays are in a pennant race.

They're still 3rd in attendance behind Rockland and Quebec, so they pack a decent crowd on a weekend game.
The only bad thing about the stadium here is the limited parking. I like to take the bus or park at a nearby business like Canadian Tire or Best Buy.

scottt - Thursday, August 18 2016 @ 07:00 PM EDT (#329272) #

Clinton Hollon reportedly had makeup and injury issues prior to the draft and since has had TJ, a 50 game amphetamine suspension, and just as that suspension was up, another 50 game drug of abuse suspension.

Yeah, a second amphetamine failed test before the suspension for the first one is served is not encouraging.
He's got good control and a great curve, but who knows if he's going to progress or just call it quit?

Kasi - Friday, August 19 2016 @ 12:18 AM EDT (#329285) #

So Jays got rid of one of the development coordinators too.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/teams/toronto-blue-jays/blue-jays-fire-minor-league-field-co-ordinator-doug-davis/

This I probably mind even less since the Jays development hadn't impressed me til this year. Will be curious what Shapiro or Atkins say. Looks like they're doing a bit of reorg.

Kasi - Friday, August 19 2016 @ 12:20 AM EDT (#329286) #

Oops it was in the other thread. I did forget that it was a guy Gerry had interviews with. That does make me sad, losing a personal pipeline to the team.

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