Batter's Box Interactive Magazine - Starskys Hutch & Reid-Foley Do It

All four affiliates found the win column with only a doubleheader split preventing a 5-0 Tuesday on the farm.

Buffalo 5 Columbus 1

Buffalo, NY - The Bisons bounced back from an extra-innings loss to beat the Indians affiliate in the second game of their three-game series thanks to the battery of Drew Hutchison (2-2, 2.93) and A.J. Jimenez. Hutchison mowed down the first 17 hitters in a row before his perfect game bid was ruined by a single. Another base hit and a walk would load the bases before Hutchison got out of the sixth. His night would end with one out in the eighth on a single and a hit by pitch. Hutch struck out nine and recorded seven of his 12 outs in play on the diamond. Pat Venditte struck out two to end the eighth but only stranded one of the two runners he inherited after a hit and an error produced the Clippers only run. Venditte threw righthanded against three of the four hitters he faced. Dustin Antolin struck out one in a perfect ninth.

The Herd broke through first on the scoreboard when Jimenez singled home a Casey Kotchman double in the third inning. Kotchman then knocked home two more runs in the fourth with a base hit. More insurance came in the sixth on a Matt Dominguez home run and another RBI single by Jimenez to score Junior Lake, who singled and stole second. Jimenez had a 3-for-3 day at the plate while Kotchman and Lake had two hits apiece. Dominguez was also hit by a pitch. AlexI Casilla, Andy Burns, Domonic Brown, Jesus Montero and Darrell Ceciliani were a combined 0-for-16 at the top of the order with Casilla, Brown and Montero drawing walks.

New Hampshire 10 Harrisburg 2

Harrisburg, PA - The Fisher Cats maintained the Bisons 5:1 ratio of outscoring the opposition. They are now two games below the .500 mark after a victory over the Nationals affiliate. Rowdy Tellez drove in a run with a sacrifice fly in the first but they would impeach the Senators for good with a five-run fourth that started with an Ian Parmley RBI single and ended with a "little league home run" as a four-base error in four runs crossing the plate. A throwing error by the catcher resulted in Shane Opitz making an uninterrupted 360-foot journey around the bases. Tellez knocked home another run with a base hit in the fifth and Christian Lopes followed with a two-run double. Parmley would triple home Tellez with the Fisher Cats last run in the seventh. Tellez had three of New Hampshire's 12 hits while Parmley, Dwight Smith Jr. and Melky Mesa had a pair apiece. Parmley drew a walk to reach base three times but he was one shy of the team lead as Ryan Lavarnway singled and walked three times. Opitz had a hit while Lopes was hit by a pitch. Roemon Fields and Jon Berti were both 0-for-4 with a base on balls.

Luis Santos lasted just one inning where he gave up two runs on two hits and a walk. Brady Dragmire (2-4) took over and authored three shutout innings by scattering three hits and a walk. Of his seven outs in play, six were on the ground. Dragmire got some help from Mesa, who threw out a runner at home from center field. Danny Barnes simply dominated in his three-inning appearance, striking out five of the nine men he retired. Murphy Smith continued the shutout relief with two innings of two-hit ball and one strikeout.

Daytona 7 Dunedin 4 (Game 1 - 7 Innings)

Daytona Beach, FL - The Reds affiliate snapped a 2-2 tie with a five-run fourth inning to chase Conner Greene (2-4, 3.29) from the game. Greene was gashed for six runs in 3-2/3 innings on seven hits and three walks and only struck out one. His troubles began in the second in the form of a double, a walk and an errant pickoff throw that resulted in two unearned runs. A walk, a single, a three-run homer and a double led to his exit in the fourth. Conor Fisk let that double score when he served up a two-run homer to the first hitter he faced. He would walk one and strike out one in his 1-1/3 innings of relief. Colton Turner struck out one in a one-hit sixth.

Dunedin's two runs came in the fourth when Derrick Loveless began the inning with a home run. Singles by Richard Urena, Ryan McBroom and Anthony Alford produced the tying marker. The D-Jays crept closer in the fifth when Aaron Attaway doubled, moved to third on a Michael De La Cruz single and scored on a Loveless sacrifice fly. Loveless scored the final run in the seventh when he walked and came all the way around to score after the Tortugas left fielder booted a ball by Emilio Guerrero. Alford had the lone two-hit game for Dunedin. L.B. Dantzler had a base hit but D.J. Davis was 0-for-3 with a couple of strikeouts.

Dunedin 5 Daytona 3 (Game 2 - 9 Innings)

Daytona Beach, FL - The D-Jays emerged with the split thanks to a two-run blast by Emilio Guerrero in the top of the ninth to snap a 3-3 tie. Guerrero got the chance to be the hero after a two-out error in center field allowed Anthony Alford to reach base and extend the inning. Dunedin used a double steal of home and second base to get the game's first run as Dickie Joe Thon and J.D. Davis pulled off the feat after both of them reached base on walks. Jorge Saez homered in the fifth and Ryan McBroom had a sacrifice fly in the sixth to tie things up a 3-3. Guerrero had the only two-hit game for Dunedin. Alford singled and Richard Urena doubled to round out Dunedin's five hits on the night. J.D. Davis got on base three times with two walks and a hit by pitch. Derrick Loveless donned the golden sombrero.

Chris Rowley was raked for 10 hits, leading to three runs over 4-2/3 innings. He struck out four and walked nobody and three of his four outs in play were handled by the infield. Alonzo Gonzalez stranded a runner for Rowley, striking out one and walking one over one scoreless inning. Carlos Ramirez stranded a runner for Gonzalez with 1-1/3 innings of one-hit relief with one strikeout. Tim Mayza (1-0) struck out the side in the eighth and tossed a perfect ninth, ending the game with his fourth strikeout.

Lansing 4 Dayton 3

Dayton, OH - The Lugnuts snatched victory from the jaws of defeat by scoring twice in their final at-bat to beat the Reds affiliate. Carl Wise doubled home the tying and winning runs by cashing in a Connor Panas walk and a Lane Thomas single. Wise also opened up the scoring by homering in his second straight game in the third inning. Lansing's other run came in the fourth when Juan Kelly tripled home a Max Pentecost walk. Panas and Thomas both had a single and two walks. Justin Atkinson singled and Ryan Hissey had a pinch-hit walk. Gunnar Heidt was 0-for-5 while Andrew Guillotte and Josh Almonte were a combined 0-for-8.

Sean Reid-Foley (3-3, 3.60) strung together his longest start of the season, pitching eight innings of three-run ball on just three hits. He struck out 10 with no walks and the infield converted nine of his 10 outs in play to give him a Game Score of 74. Reid-Foley retired the first 12 hitters he faced, including four consecutive strikeouts, and the last 11 hitters he faced. In between was a three-run fifth as a result of two singles, a triple and a wild pitch. Just before the Dragons breathed fire, Dayton manager and former Jay Dick Schofield was ejected after a Reid-Foley strikeout for the first out of the fifth. That may have rattled Reid-Foley a bit before he regained his composure and finished with a flourish. Dusty Isaacs preserved the win with two strikeouts in a perfect ninth for save number 10.

Tuesday's Linescores

*** 3 Stars!!! ***

3. Carl Wise, Lansing

2. Drew Hutchison, Buffalo

1. Sean Reid-Foley, Lansing

Wednesday's Schedule / Probable Starters

Columbus @ Buffalo, 10:35 am ET - Scott Diamond (3-5, 3.47)
New Hampshire @ Harrisburg, 7:00 pm ET - Jeremy Gabryszwski (3-1, 3.86)
Lansing @ Dayton, 7:00 pm ET - Tayler Saucedo (1-5, 5.08)
Dunedin @ Daytona, 7:05 pm ET - Francisco Rios (2-2, 2.54)

Posted by #2JBrumfield on Wednesday, June 01 2016 @ 12:52 AM EDT.

Starskys Hutch & Reid-Foley Do It | 49 comments | Create New Account

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China fan - Wednesday, June 01 2016 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#324014) #

Congratulations to Wade LeBlanc, who has just been named the Player of the Month for the International League for May. He's allowed no runs in his past 33 innings, with an ERA of 0.70 for the month.

Jerjapan did a very good job of shooting down my praise for LeBlanc recently, and I cannot dispute his scouting report on the guy, but I still hold out hopes that LeBlanc could be useful for the Jays at some point.

Hutchison, meanwhile, just gets better and better. Given the continuing strength of the Jays rotation (aside from Dickey and Stroman -- who aren't going to be replaced), I wonder if Hutchison's greatest value will be as a trade chip. He could slide right into the starting rotation of many MLB teams. If the Jays don't need him in their rotation, they could trade him for a useful return -- maybe a good reliever, if they still need one. (And I note Uglyone's point that Hutch himself could be good in the Jays bullpen, although I think he has more value as a starter.)

Gerry - Wednesday, June 01 2016 @ 10:31 AM EDT (#324015) #

Someone asked about Vlad Jr last week. Arden Zwelling has some reports today in his twitter feed.

The summary is that Vlad Jr.'s pitch recognition is outstanding, he grinds out at-bats. and his defense is improving.

uglyone - Wednesday, June 01 2016 @ 10:41 AM EDT (#324016) #

@ArdenZwelling has tweeted some glowing reports on Vladdy from extended this morning. exciting stuff.

uglyone - Wednesday, June 01 2016 @ 10:42 AM EDT (#324017) #

ach. what gerry said.

Mike Green - Wednesday, June 01 2016 @ 10:55 AM EDT (#324018) #

Dickey has been much better over the last number of years from pitch 1-50 than thereafter. He is 41 years old. I wonder if he would be willing to make the Wilhelm transition to the pen to allow the younger Hutchison to join the rotation. The nice thing about Dickey in the bullpen is that if you need a starter later on in the season, you don't need to worry that he has a different repertoire out of the pen (as you might with a pitcher like Hutchison).

This year, opponents have hit .248/.302/.410 off Dickey over the first 50 pitches. Most years he has been better than that. You can use him comfortably in a variety of situations, including extra-inning games.

The club does have a series of decent starting pitcher fill-in possibilities- Hutchison, Floyd, Chavez. They can easily spread the innings around.

pooks137 - Wednesday, June 01 2016 @ 11:03 AM EDT (#324019) #

Hutchison, meanwhile, just gets better and better. Given the continuing strength of the Jays rotation (aside from Dickey and Stroman -- who aren't going to be replaced), I wonder if Hutchison's greatest value will be as a trade chip. He could slide right into the starting rotation of many MLB teams. If the Jays don't need him in their rotation, they could trade him for a useful return -- maybe a good reliever, if they still need one. (And I note Uglyone's point that Hutch himself could be good in the Jays bullpen, although I think he has more value as a starter.)

I hope they don't trade Hutch. If they do, it's likely for bullpen help like last year's rental trades with fleeting value beyond the end of the year.

The Jays were lucky to have phenomenal SP health last year (besides Stroman's freak ST injury). They've also had very good health from the SP this year

This trend can't continue. With Norris/Boyd/Hoffman/Castro et al. all gone, they have no SP depth besides Chavez and Floyd, who would need to be stretched out all over again at the MLB level.

Also, the budget is going to get ugly next year. Either Bautista/Encarnacion/Cecil/Smoak/Saunders/Dickey are going to get raises or are going to need replacements with players on the roster like Martin getting more expensive and no cheap pre-arb players coming up (except maybe Pompey).

The Jays are going to need Hutch's cheap innings next year because they won't be able to afford any Happs or Estradas

uglyone - Wednesday, June 01 2016 @ 11:06 AM EDT (#324020) #

gotta quibble with that characterization or our SP health last year.

our Ace missed the whole season.

Sanchez was out for 2 months.

Buehrle was badly hobbled the last 2 months. Dickey pitched thru a knee injury most of the year.

imo that's not good health luck whatsoever.

uglyone - Wednesday, June 01 2016 @ 11:11 AM EDT (#324021) #

I don't really get the depth concern - hutch, floyd, chavez is more starting depth than most any team has. It's questionable as to whether that kind of starting depth is even a smart use of resources.

PeterG - Wednesday, June 01 2016 @ 12:36 PM EDT (#324024) #

Hutch will be needed next year and should not be traded. Dealing a starter for a reliever is never a good idea.

scottt - Wednesday, June 01 2016 @ 01:17 PM EDT (#324026) #

The nice thing about Dickey in the bullpen is that if you need a starter later on in the season, you don't need to worry that he has a different repertoire out of the pen (as you might with a pitcher like Hutchison).

Hutch gets by with 3 pitches. Storen and Grilli have 4. Chavez has 5.

Sometimes fastball variations are open to debate. A pitcher will say that he doesn't throw a cutter but sometimes he throws a fastball that moves like a cutter and I'll still call it a cutter.

Some pitcher rely on deception. Others have stuff that is hard to hit even if you know it's coming.
There are no absolute.

Hutch has a very good slider but his game depends on fastball control.
That's the only way he knows to pitch. I don't think Hutch would throw any different out of the pen.
He might be asked to throw his fastball harder, but that's likely to mess with his command and could very well make him less effective.

scottt - Wednesday, June 01 2016 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#324027) #

It's questionable if life insurance is a good use of resources. If you have dependents you still pay it.

Ideally you spend all your budget on 25 guys and nobody gets hurt.
It never works like that.

Hutch will take over for Dickey next year. Biagini could go to AAA and get stretched as the 6th starter.
That leaves lots of money to spend on replacing the free agents which includes most of the pen and a bunch of power hitters.

China fan - Wednesday, June 01 2016 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#324028) #

"....Hutch will be needed next year and should not be traded...."

That's a somewhat pessimistic assessment of the Jays rotation. Next year they will have Stroman, Sanchez, Estrada and Happ -- at a minimum -- even if they don't bring Dickey back. The only reason they would need Hutchison in the rotation is if he improves significantly, or if the Jays cannot acquire any other pitcher and don't bring Dickey back. After all, Hutch is not good enough to win a job in the top 5 this season, so if he makes the rotation next year, that could mean a step down in quality for the rotation.

Of course Hutch is still just 25, and it's possible that he is still improving. If so, let him win the job in spring training, in competition with any other options that the Jays might have for the position. The competition this spring was a good one, and Sanchez won. I wouldn't just hand the job to Hutch because Dickey is gone and Hutch happens to be hanging around.

In the meantime, Hutch might have significant trade value, since other teams might be desperate for an MLB-ready starting pitcher. If so, there's nothing wrong with listening to the offers. Doesn't have to be for a reliever. When teams get desperate for pitching, Hutch could be a nice chip to have.

China fan - Wednesday, June 01 2016 @ 01:31 PM EDT (#324029) #

"....Biagini could go to AAA and get stretched as the 6th starter...."

Thanks for reminding me about Biagini. But he won't necessarily need to go to AAA to get stretched out. He's been a starter for most of his career. He can get stretched out in the five or six weeks of spring training. He should be in the mix for the rotation next year. (I'm assuming that Osuna probably won't be in the mix, but he's also a conceivable possibility.)

pubster - Wednesday, June 01 2016 @ 01:42 PM EDT (#324030) #

I'd rather have Hutch for a cheap salary as the number 5 starter than spend $13 mill on Dickey.

Having Hutch as an option next year gives the FO more flexibility.

cybercavalier - Wednesday, June 01 2016 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#324037) #

Can Chinafan briefly reiterate Jerjapan's ideas on LeBlanc ? What Chinafan think of how LeBlanc could be useful to the Jays ? Probably not as a player but like Hutch in Chinafan's perspective, a trade chip, maybe to team(s) in need of a stopgap in face of more important priorities such as prospect developments.

China fan - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 08:08 AM EDT (#324051) #

Cyber, I thought LeBlanc might be an option for the bullpen, at a time when the Jays were struggling there. But with the arrival of Grilli and Loup, there's obviously much less need in the bullpen now.

SK in NJ - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 09:21 AM EDT (#324057) #

Insurance is a good analogy for SP depth. That depth may look superfluous now when you have five starters going strong, but if an injury or two hits, suddenly it becomes vital. You can't go into a season with 5 or even 6 starters and be content with that. Floyd and Chavez were good investments; just turns out that an internal option (Sanchez) surprised everyone and panned out. Great. Make the necessary adjustments in that case. If Sanchez did not pan out, then Floyd/Chavez would have been in the rotation, and we'd be looking at things differently.

Hutchison is not expendable, IMO. You don't even have to pencil him into the 2017 rotation. Just hold on to him because he's still young, has upside, has pitched well in the bigs before, and has 2-3 years of control left (depending on how many days he spends in the Majors this season). Some people, not me, pegged Conner Greene as a rotation option for 2017, and he doesn't even look close at this point. You can't depend on prospects. Let the prospects surprise you and win spots, but have the necessary depth to cover for it.

uglyone - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 10:02 AM EDT (#324058) #

and some people, not me, didn't want sanchez osuna or hutch on the roster at all.

regardless of whether you want to trade him or not (and i don't), the idea of just keeping good players in the minors when there are holes they might fill on an otherwise contending roster is, as always, silly.

China fan - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 11:17 AM EDT (#324062) #

"....the idea of just keeping good players in the minors when there are holes they might fill on an otherwise contending roster is, as always, silly...."

Originally it was thought that the 2016 rotation would be a little shaky -- with Sanchez being an imponderable, with Happ and Estrada perhaps due to regress, and with the health of the rotation always being a risk, as it is on every team. In that scenario, Hutchison could have been very useful, and he might have been needed in the rotation as early as last month. But in fact the rotation has been fine. Even the bullpen is looking more solid now. So what are the holes on the roster? Hutch, to me, is a starter who can go 6 or 7 innings, and I don't see him as being superior to Chavez or Floyd in a short one-inning burst.

So now we're looking at a Jays pitching staff that might not need Hutch this season. Insurance is fine, I like the insurance metaphor, but it could mean that Hutch spends the whole season in Buffalo -- when he is perfectly capable of stepping into the rotation for most teams in the league. As for the 2017 rotation, he would have to compete against Biagini, perhaps Osuna or Floyd, and anyone else that the Jays might acquire. To me, he seems like a potentially wasted asset. I'm not saying that he necessarily should be traded, I'm just saying that the Jays should be alive to all possibilities.

uglyone - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 11:25 AM EDT (#324063) #

yet we are scrambling for reclamation projects like Grilli, while already using Tepera, and are scared of using anyone except two raw kids in Osuna and Biagini with barely 100ip between them.

China fan - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 12:09 PM EDT (#324067) #

But as you've astutely pointed out in the past, "reclamation projects" are actually a good way for most teams to cobble together a good bullpen. Jason Grilli is not the only Jays reliever in that "reclamation" category -- Gavin Floyd and perhaps now Drew Storen are also in that category. Tepera will be demoted as soon as the team moves to a 7-man bullpen. Loup is looking useful again. Cecil will be back in a few weeks. So where is the hole? I'd certainly wait for the Grilli experiment to play out, before deciding that Hutch is needed in the bullpen.

uglyone - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#324068) #

yes they are.

as are milb starters.

SK in NJ - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#324069) #

"and some people, not me, didn't want sanchez osuna or hutch on the roster at all."

What the hell are you talking about? I flat out said numerous times that if the team wanted to win in 2016 that they should use Osuna and Sanchez in the bullpen (this was before Sanchez came into camp a changed pitcher, obviously). That would imply them being on the roster, last time I checked. My point was if they wanted to develop them as SP's, then using them in the minors would be the best long-term option (Sanchez to improve his command/strike out rate and Osuna to stretch out). Turns out Sanchez did not need it. Hutchison was a casualty of SP depth, which is fine. He'll be needed some time during the season anyway.

Prospects should earn their way on the team. I know you want to just throw every prospect on the team regardless of performance, but there has to be depth either way, and depth usually has a pecking order (vets with more established performance have to get out performed to lose their spots).

By the way, Greene as a 2017 option when he wasn't even good in A+ last season (and even worse there now) was absurd to suggest prior to this season. He might end up being an option if he improves, but you sure as hell don't count on it. You let him surprise his way into the rotation (and at this point it would be more than a shock if he's ready by 2017). Same with Alford, Tellez, and anyone else you want to pencil into 2017 spots.

"regardless of whether you want to trade him or not (and i don't), the idea of just keeping good players in the minors when there are holes they might fill on an otherwise contending roster is, as always, silly."

Hutchison had an option remaining, and wasn't one of the top 5 SP options on the team out of camp. What exactly is the problem with using him in AAA instead of sticking him in the pen?

The "diversifying risk" strategy that you hated has worked to this point, while still allowing prospects to develop organically (Sanchez). You seem to be the only person who has ever said depth was not worth investing in. That's crazy. We have proof that you can develop talent and add depth simultaneously. Why would that change going forward?

uglyone - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#324071) #

whoa thin skin. you took the shot at me first.

but come on now, we both know that you wanted all of them in the minors this year. no need to change your story.

uglyone - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#324073) #

"Hutchison had an option remaining, and wasn't one of the top 5 SP options on the team out of camp. What exactly is the problem with using him in AAA instead of sticking him in the pen?"

Well it's really complicated, but I'll try to explain the concept:

1. He might improve our bullpen.
2. See #1.

China fan - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#324074) #

"....this was before Sanchez came into camp a changed pitcher, obviously...."

You make it sound like the Jays were shocked to discover a suddenly good Sanchez, with no advance warning. In reality, he has shown steady improvement throughout his career, and he's still just 23. He improved his command last season, looked very good in his final 6 starts of the season, and improved his off-speed pitches. Nobody could have known that he'd be as strong as he is this year, but it was quite reasonable to expect that he would continue to improve this year and that he would be a good starter in the 2016 rotation. It was also very clear that he deserved a full opportunity as a starter in 2016 to see if he could handle the job, before anyone decided to demote him to the bullpen. (In fact, many analysts had warned that Sanchez would probably be forever consigned to a bullpen role if he didn't get a chance to develop as a starter this season.) That's why it was so surprising to see so many fans arguing for Sanchez to be a reliever in 2016, even when he was destroying the opposition in spring training.

SK in NJ - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 12:31 PM EDT (#324076) #

In terms of winning in 2016, I said put them in the pen. From an asset management standpoint, I said put them in the minors to further their development (plus the added salary/contractual benefit). I 100% stand by that based on the information at the time. Why would I change my story? My credibility on the internet is far less important to me than it seems to be for you. If you want to take a shot at me, be my guest, but don't put words in my mouth (or keyboard in this case).

As far as Greene, many people looked at him as a fast riser who was going to be an option in 2017. I don't know why you assumed I was singling you out specifically. My point was, you can't trust prospects until they give you a reason to.

uglyone - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 12:40 PM EDT (#324077) #

again, you took a shot at me. and again, you're the only one changing your story to preserve internet credibility.

I did have Greene as a possible 2017 candidate, and he's not looking like one now. I don't deny it. I'm wrong all the time. No biggie.

SK in NJ - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 12:41 PM EDT (#324078) #

CF, many (not just you ugly) bring up Sanchez's final few starts of 2015, but to me, he's so much better now than he was in those starts. He's striking out nearly 8 per 9 with a near 60% GB rate, increased soft contact rate, and there's nothing wrong one way or another with his BABIP (not too high or low). In his final four starts in 2015, he had a FIP of 4.63 with a K/9 of 5.46.

Right now, he's the best SP on the team, and is showing more flashes of front of the rotation potential than Stroman, IMO. I don't see how anyone could have seen that coming based on his last 4 starts of 2015. The ERA was good, but the secondary numbers did not support this type of climb. Credit where credit is due, he's really changed as a SP, and looks incredible right now.

pubster - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#324079) #

They should keep Sanchez in the minors until he's 30.

Then they basically got him for his entire career. And it wouldnt cost too much.

SK in NJ - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#324085) #

Considering I've done nothing but praise Sanchez's development when I was the more vocal in doubting his ability based on his 2010-15 performance, why the hell would I change my story for something as irrelevant as where I wanted him to start in 2016? Yes, I wanted him to start in AAA for depth/development/service time purposes. At that time he looked like a one pitch pitcher with a shoddy track record. Where the heck did I deny that? I also said if he were to be on the 2016 team that it should have been in the pen, which clearly was underselling him. Again, where do I benefit from denying that? For "cool" points on Batterbox? I don't care if I'm wrong about something.

I've said in the past that you have a Glenn Close/Michael Douglas/Fatal Attraction sort of obsession with David Price. That's a shot at you. What I said about Greene was so throwaway as a comment that only someone who takes themselves a bit too seriously would think it was about them.

Whatever, this is about the minors, I think.

92-93 - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#324090) #

This conversation makes me wonder what the Jays record would be had Hutchison broke camp in the rotation with Sanchez in the bullpen. It would probably be better.

scottt - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#324091) #

For sure and it's likely that Sanchez will go back to the pen before the end of the year.
Especially if the Jays are in it, because the pen is more important in the playoffs.

scottt - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 07:42 PM EDT (#324092) #

That's a somewhat pessimistic assessment of the Jays rotation. Next year they will have Stroman, Sanchez, Estrada and Happ -- at a minimum -- even if they don't bring Dickey back. The only reason they would need Hutchison in the rotation is if he improves significantly, or if the Jays cannot acquire any other pitcher and don't bring Dickey back. After all, Hutch is not good enough to win a job in the top 5 this season, so if he makes the rotation next year, that could mean a step down in quality for the rotation.

Estrada and Happ both cost about 15M. Hutch will cost about 3M.
The one thing that didn't work out in AA's trade was that he was often acquiring expensive players by trading cheap ones leaving no money to fill up the holes.

It's not accurate to say that Hutch wasn't good enough to make the top 5.
He just happens to have options. Remember that Hutch is younger than Biagini.

When was the last time the Jays started a season with a 5th pitcher better than Hutch?
That never happened under AA. Or Girardi.

Hutch has 399 innings in the majors and has only pitched out of the pen twice.
Hutch has 331 innings in the minors and has only pitched out of the pen twice.

Putting Hutch in the pen would be like playing Martin a second base.

ayjackson - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#324094) #

No. It would be nothing like putting Martin at 2B.

ayjackson - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#324095) #

Dennis Eckersley had 427 starts and 16 relief appearances before becoming one of the greatest relievers in MLB history.

I personally think Hutch's fastball/slider would play up in the pen quite nicely.

uglyone - Thursday, June 02 2016 @ 11:54 PM EDT (#324099) #

putting extra starters in the bullpen is straightforward, smart practice. it's how we got jansen cecil Osuna sanchez etc etc. using them in the pen in no way takes away from them still being starting insurance, as sanchez is showing.

there is nothing complicated about this. in fact, i'm pretty sure most any team with a glaring bullpen need would see if a guy in hutch's situation could help, instead of keeping him in the minors all year pitching well. you can look around the league and see countless examples of guys in his situation being used in exactly that role....while still being used as primary 6th starter. It's how the rays are using ramirez, its how the orioles used gausman last year, and i bet i could go around the league and more teams than not would be using a guy like this in that role.

and the notion that we'd be better off if we had put one of the best starters in baseball so far this year in the bullpen is just pretty much bonkers.

China fan - Friday, June 03 2016 @ 07:21 AM EDT (#324102) #

"....At that time he looked like a one pitch pitcher with a shoddy track record..."

That's an astonishing description for Aaron Sanchez in March 2016. No wonder you were so surprised by his performance this year. Most of us weren't.

China fan - Friday, June 03 2016 @ 07:28 AM EDT (#324103) #

"....It's not accurate to say that Hutch wasn't good enough to make the top 5...."

So you honestly believe that Shapiro and Atkins and Gibbons deliberately chose an inferior rotation? You're clearly implying that the rotation would have been stronger with Hutch in it, and you're suggesting that everyone knew this, and yet the front office deliberately chose to weaken the rotation by demoting Hutch. That's a very strange accusation to make. It's far more likely that Shapiro and Atkins and Gibbons closely watched the competition in the spring training, plus the track record of their pitchers and their age and their rate of improvement, and they made the logical decision that Sanchez was a better starter than Hutchison. Nothing in 2016 has disproven that decision. (Alternatively, your argument might be that Hutchison is superior to Dickey, but that ignores the reality that Dickey was one of the better pitchers in the league in the second half of 2015, while Hutch had a poor season and didn't show any significant signs of improvement in the spring.)

SK in NJ - Friday, June 03 2016 @ 07:58 AM EDT (#324105) #

"That's an astonishing description for Aaron Sanchez in March 2016. No wonder you were so surprised by his performance this year. Most of us weren't."

Why? In his 2015 starts, he was throwing his fastball 77% of the time, and if you look at his pitch types on his secondary stuff in those starts, he was negative in practically all of them. He did not have consistent command or a reliable swing and miss secondary pitch. That's why his BB rate was so high and why his K rate was low/mediocre. He was able to get by on a great GB% and great fastball.

That changed in 2016. He obviously leads with his fastball still which has always been great, but he's been very good with his secondary stuff as well. His SwStr%, while still has room to grow, is much better than it was the past two seasons (which is significant because he was a reliever for most of that period).

I'm thrilled Sanchez has panned out, but I wasn't knocking him because of his upside. He had huge upside. It was the performance that wasn't matching the talent (until now). Last season some people (calm down ugly) loved his ERA, but his secondary numbers did not support it. Now his ERA is great and his secondary numbers support it. Much easier to have faith in him now than it was back then, at least for me. Nothing he's done in his career from 2010-15 resembles 2016. If you or anyone else saw this coming, then props to you, but I didn't.

SK in NJ - Friday, June 03 2016 @ 08:14 AM EDT (#324106) #

Hutchison did not make the rotation due to the numbers game more than anything else. He had options remaining, while Chavez and Floyd did not. Then it turned out that Sanchez came into camp looking like a stud, so that dropped him even further down the depth chart.

The FO likely knew Hutch was not going to make the team based on the pitchers they acquired (barring injuries). He had options left and they used them. Nothing wrong with that. They could have used him in the pen, sure, but he has no history there, and you ideally want to have someone in AAA ready to step in to the rotation in case of need (and it certainly wasn't going to be Fausto, LeBlanc, Diamond, etc).

As far as next season, right now they'll have Stroman, Sanchez, Estrada, Happ, and Hutch, and it's questionable whether they'll spend money on another Happ/Estrada type (or whether that type is even available). They'll have a ton of holes to fill and a lot of it will be on offense, for once. However, they'll almost certainly add depth to the rotation, as they should. Hutch will be needed as a SP, in 2016 and beyond. Hold on to him, keep him as a SP, and see if he turns things around as far as his big league performance.

uglyone - Friday, June 03 2016 @ 09:15 AM EDT (#324112) #

sweet jesus.

using hutch in the pen DOES NOT STOP HIM FROM STARTING IN THE FUTURE.

it just doesn't. stop saying it does. it's not true.

and this isn't even an argument over whether it was good or bad to send hutch down - it was a fine decision to send him down. nothing wrong with it at all. but now our bullpen is looking much shakier than it was to start, and it behooves us to utilize our best talent to try and improve it.

jerjapan - Friday, June 03 2016 @ 10:30 AM EDT (#324115) #

Our pen could be better pretty soon though ... presumably Cecil is better when he comes off the DL, Loup is back and looks alright, and the forgotten man Franklin Morales has had a weird career but has been effective at times - he could be a valuable middle reliever / LOOGY.

And Danny Barnes has been lights out in AA, he was a legit pen prospect at one point before injuries and looks to be fully back. He's not on the 40 man though, so his time may not be this year.

anyone know what's up with Blake McFarland?

uglyone - Friday, June 03 2016 @ 12:55 PM EDT (#324125) #

absolutely they could be better, and soon. storen and grilli and loup could get back to being themselves. cecil and morales could get healthy.

but i'm worried about right now, not later. if those guys get good and healthy hen sure, move hutch back to the AAA rotation. there's nothing permanent in trying him in the bullpen instead of tepera.

China fan - Friday, June 03 2016 @ 01:17 PM EDT (#324126) #

Uglyone, I've got no objection in principle to the idea of "trying" Hutchison in the bullpen -- anything is worth trying. But in addition to my earlier point (about Hutch being better-suited to a starting role and having more long-term value in that role), what about the fact that he probably wouldn't get much playing time in the bullpen if he is replacing Tepera? Tepera is the 8th man in an 8-man bullpen. If he's in that role, Hutch might throw one inning in a week. That's disruptive to his routine, and would ultimately require even more time for the further adjustment when he returns to the starting role. I think Hutch would be stagnating if he replaces Tepera. (And in any event, Tepera will be gone as soon as the bullpen returns to 7 men, which could be fairly soon.)

And does it make sense to have Hutch replacing anyone else in the bullpen? Osuna is the closer and Biagini and Floyd are the set-up men. I don't see Hutch replacing them. Loup is a LHP specialist, so Hutch wouldn't replace him. And then Storen and Chavez and Grilli are veterans who've had a lot of success in the past, and the Jays aren't going to give up on them yet. They'll get playing time because the Jays want to restore their value and see if they can become effective high-leverage pitchers again. I just don't see much room for Hutch to get a lot of playing time in the bullpen, so he would be just sitting their stewing. Better to have him pitching 7 innings every 5 days for the Bisons, and ready to step into the Jays rotation at a moment's notice.

Mike Green - Friday, June 03 2016 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#324128) #

he would be just sitting their stewing

Here is a suggestion which I will try to follow myself. Treat the preview as an opportunity to edit.

"Sitting their stewing" is kind of funny. It reminds me of an X-rated description for doing nothing that I once heard a witness give in testimony.

SK in NJ - Friday, June 03 2016 @ 02:13 PM EDT (#324130) #

"using hutch in the pen DOES NOT STOP HIM FROM STARTING IN THE FUTURE. it just doesn't. stop saying it does. it's not true."

Considering no one in this thread has even come close to saying this (or even implying it), I'm not sure who you are telling to stop saying it.

1. keeping him as a SP in the minors is common sense. He has options left, he wasn't one of the top 5 SP's out of camp, and he's coming off a mediocre season in 2015. He's clearly an MLB starter, but he didn't make the current rotation. It happens. Since you agree there's nothing wrong with sending him down, that leads to...

2. as mentioned in this thread, he has very limited sample as a RP (11.57 ERA/9.13 FIP in 2.1 IP in the Majors). Suggesting that he'd be an upgrade over any internal option is a complete guess. What makes you think his performance in the pen would make any sort of difference? With relievers being as fungible as they are (i.e. our 2nd best reliever is a freakin' Rule 5 pick), it's much more sensible to go after the Grilli's of the world, or even to see if Storen is fixable instead of depleting the SP depth.

3. Sanchez may or may not be moved to the pen later in the year (who knows what the plan is at this point). If he does move to the pen, then Hutchison will likely take that spot. Also, what if someone gets hurt? Floyd and Chavez will need some time to stretch out. Having a guy in Buffalo that you can call up and have take over right away is the whole point of having him down there. All five SP's are not going to start every game all year. It very rarely happens.

Sanchez in the pen to start the year was a logical option prior to ST since he had a history of success in that role. Hutchison in that role was never going to happen, with good reason.

Dr B - Friday, June 03 2016 @ 05:39 PM EDT (#324132) #

the notion that we'd be better off if we had put one of the best starters in baseball so far this year in the bullpen is just pretty much bonkers.

But nobody said quite that. 92-93 said that the Jay's record might be better. Which is a) nothing more than an interesting thought b) plausible.

China fan - Saturday, June 04 2016 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#324151) #

"....Treat the preview as an opportunity to edit...."

I do try to edit, but this one slipped past me. Nice catch, and I'm glad to have inadvertently provided you with some amusement.

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