Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
Game Threads Blue Jays @ Rays - April 3-6
The 2016 regular season begins where the 2015 campaign ended last year - Tropicana Field in St. Petersburg, Florida.


The Blue Jays managed to win a series at Tropicana Field in 2015 but still dropped six of nine overall.
(Image from Deadspin.com)



Series Schedule / Probable Starters

Sunday at 4:05 pm ET - Marcus Stroman vs. Chris Archer
Monday at 7:10 pm ET - R.A. Dickey vs. Drew Smyly
Tuesday at 7:10 pm ET - Aaron Sanchez vs. Jake Odorizzi
Wednesday at 1:10 pm ET - J.A. Happ vs. Matt Moore

The Blue Jays have signed lefty Franklin Morales, leading to the demotion of righty Ryan Tepera to Triple-A Buffalo.

ESPN correspondents have made their predictions for the upcoming season and their USA TODAY counterparts also weigh in on what they think will happen in 2016.
Posted by #2JBrumfield on Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 03:52 PM EDT.
Blue Jays @ Rays - April 3-6 | 289 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
StephenT - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#320326) #
The straightaway centre field camera at Tropicana is giving us a great look at Archer's and Stoman's pitches.  4K from Rogers Centre will be less clear.
[ Reply to This ]
katman - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 05:42 PM EDT (#320327) #
Gee, it's too bad Edwin hasn't had enough at-bats to get ready for major league pitching...
[ Reply to This ]
Richard S.S. - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#320328) #
During the 4th inning, the Blue Jays acquires P Chris Leroux from Phillies for cash.
[ Reply to This ]
katman - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 05:57 PM EDT (#320329) #
Re: Morales. Like the signing, he was pretty good with KC, but he has poor righty splits. Guess we may see this game.

Anyone here think Venditte would have been a better bet?
[ Reply to This ]
scottt - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 06:25 PM EDT (#320331) #
Tulo!
[ Reply to This ]
scottt - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 07:08 PM EDT (#320332) #
There you go, first place.

Too bad Stroman could not finish it up.

It's a bit irritating to inflate our ERAs with those indifferent plays.  I'm not convinced that's the right to do unless you're concentrating on the last out.

[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 07:09 PM EDT (#320333) #
Well, that was a good game all-round for the Jays (aside from a couple of errors that can probably be attributed partly to Tropicana and opening-day jitters).  Stroman was great.  He just kept getting better as the game went on.   Good hitting from Edwin and Tulo.  And I was happy to see Pillar and Goins getting a few hits against Archer.  When those two are contributing, they really deepen the lineup, and I'm optimistic that they will keep contributing this year.
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#320334) #
I should also add that the Jays struck out too often and missed some good opportunities against Archer and the bullpen.  There's lots of room for the hitting to get better.  And it will.
[ Reply to This ]
Richard S.S. - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 08:19 PM EDT (#320335) #
This was a game to get the first one out of the way. They didn't hit well, nor walk much. Defense had it's problems. Starter couldn't finish his inning. Closer was shaky. They still won. It's a good game to get out of the way.
[ Reply to This ]
jerjapan - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 08:26 PM EDT (#320336) #
Dunno Richard, think we saw different games!  Stroman was ultra-efficient and looked great.  Loved the intensity when he came out of the game.  Osuna also looked dominant to me.

The D had their lapses, but they were strong up the middle yet again, and the middle of the order just ground Archer down in that first inning.  He's a legit ace who was pitching well today and he just couldn't handle our top 4 guys.  I expect to see that a lot this year.  

[ Reply to This ]
scottt - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 08:33 PM EDT (#320337) #
Well, they struck out a lot, but they drained Archer in 5 innings and that's their ace, so that's all good.
Also they got some walks and a timely homerun, that makes up for it.
They should separate the lefties more, but now that Tampa used 2 of them for almost 3 innings, it might not matter.

[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 08:39 PM EDT (#320338) #
Stroman was great, and the hitters did their job well. Just another day at the office...
[ Reply to This ]
ISLAND BOY - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 08:40 PM EDT (#320339) #
Agree, Jerapan. No shame in not finishing an inning when you pitch into the ninth. There were a lot of strikeouts but I thought the hitters were patient and really worked their at-bats which resulted in Archer running up his pitch count quickly. Tulo looks a lot more comfortable this year, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Stroman win 20 games.
[ Reply to This ]
Dave Till - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 08:40 PM EDT (#320340) #
If Stroman keeps pitching like that, it's going to be a very enjoyable summer indeed.

I'm starting to really enjoy watching Tulowitzki play shortstop. He seems to have a built-in mechanism that lets him know where first base is, no matter how much he has spun, dived, bent over, or otherwise maneuvered. So he doesn't need to straighten up and assume the standard throwing position - he just slings the ball from wherever he is, knowing that it will get where he wants it to go. I've never seen anything like it; Brett Lawrie's third base defense comes closest, but Lawrie didn't regularly do 360s before throwing the ball.

And I can see why Osuna kept his job. He didn't quite have his breaking stuff working at its best today, but he didn't need to - he just needed to show the bendy stuff and then go back to blowing hitters away with 95 mph high heat.

It's a long season, and they won't all be this good, but this was obviously a great start.
[ Reply to This ]
Richard S.S. - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 09:09 PM EDT (#320341) #
Marcus Stroman was a dominant force, but he failed to finish the last inning he started because he wasn't good enough, but it didn't cost the game. Offense only had 7 hits and 3 walks, but it didn't cost the game. Defense had two errors in one inning, after a great game prior, costing a run, but it didn't cost the game. The Closer let a run score, but it didn't cost the game.

A bunch of "oops" or whatever you call it didn't cost the game. That's a good game to get out of the way, first game jitters, because it didn't cost the game.
[ Reply to This ]
Shoeless Joe - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 09:29 PM EDT (#320342) #
I was at the game near the Jays dugout, the infield defence was really smooth and impressive.... even Cola made a nice play earlier in the game. Tulo makes SS look easy. If Bautista wants 30 million he should catch routine fly balls first.

I don't get this talk doubting Stroman's dominance. He threw strikes all day and he just flat out got tired in the 9th. He pitcher a better game than Archer who had 12 Ks and many peg as an early cy young candidate.

The stuff was there for Osuna, and it was nasty.

Final Note, Josh Donaldson is a class act, signed autos the whole way down the foul line for anybody who wanted anything. Estrada was the only other Jay who bothered to come over.
[ Reply to This ]
pubster - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 10:19 PM EDT (#320343) #
The Jays pitching was shaky today?

I got so much to learn.

[ Reply to This ]
katman - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 10:46 PM EDT (#320344) #
In retrospect...

* Stro's groundball rate won't always be this sick, but if it's even close with this defense behind him, he's a Cy candidate for sure. Looking forward to Sanchez even more now that I've seen this.

* Really nice D by Colabello. Picked up where the playoffs left off. I'm praying to Jobu that the BABIP holds up.

* Going the other way I was hoping the lack of injuries would reverse Joey Bats' UZR trend from last year. Stuff like today gives me a sinking feeling that this may not happen, but it's way too early. Let's hope he recovers the way we know Goins will.

* LOLed at Stroman's post-game quip of #HakunaOsuna.
[ Reply to This ]
Shoeless Joe - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 11:18 PM EDT (#320345) #
I gave Bautista flak for the misplay, but in all honesty at the Trop the lights provide him with an excuse to lose a ball up in the air if you don't follow it.

#HakunaOsuna is the best thing ever!
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 11:51 PM EDT (#320346) #
Stro's winning a Cy this year (tm).

Osuna dominant too.

And Tulo is a joy. In the field he's the white Tony Fernandez.

but Cola's a bit of a mess at the moment,and he doesn't have much wiggle room.
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Sunday, April 03 2016 @ 11:53 PM EDT (#320347) #
"Stro's groundball rate won't always be this sick"

it might be. he's well over 60% over his last 10 starts now. and he's only got 25 career starts.
[ Reply to This ]
pubster - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 12:02 AM EDT (#320348) #
I think he said Osuna Matada. (Sp?)
[ Reply to This ]
katman - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 02:54 AM EDT (#320349) #
shoeless joe - It is; just reviewed the interview and it's even better. He actually said "Osuna Matata" :-)
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 06:19 AM EDT (#320350) #
The acquisition of Chris Leroux could create a 40% Canadian rotation for the Bisons this season, if the Jays decide to use him as a starter.  Leroux and Diamond, the two Canucks, could be two-fifths of the rotation.  However, at the major-league level, Leroux has been utilized solely as a reliever, so maybe the Jays will prefer to keep him in that role.
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 06:30 AM EDT (#320351) #
Funniest thing in yesterday's game was the near-fight between Stroman and Logan Morrison, based entirely on Morrison misunderstanding the animated behavior of the Jays ace.  Stroman was yelling at himself, as he often does in his enthusiasm for self-motivation, and Morrison thought he was yelling at him, and he yelled back, and it escalated. 

Morrison after the game:  "It was my first time facing him and I forgot he did that whole yell-at-himself thing..."

[ Reply to This ]
Alex Obal - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 07:38 AM EDT (#320352) #
Notorious Slow Starter™ Edwin Encarnacion goes 2/4 with a pair of
squared-up singles up the middle, plus four or five thunderous foul
balls, either perfectly timed and fouled straight back, or ripped hard
into the third-base stands. He looked unconscious. That was the best news from game
1, I thought. Game 2, I'll definitely be watching Colabello's ABs more carefully...
[ Reply to This ]
SK in NJ - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 08:15 AM EDT (#320353) #
Stroman was excellent yesterday. Took advantage of the low strike zone by the ump and other than the HR in the 9th he kept the ball down for most of the game. Osuna in the 9th throwing gas and getting K's was fun to watch as well.

All around solid first game.
[ Reply to This ]
John Northey - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 08:52 AM EDT (#320354) #
I love that nickname for Osuna. It means no worries. Osuna Matata what a wonderful thing.
It's our problem-free philosophy - Osuna Matata.
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 09:07 AM EDT (#320355) #
"....Cola's a bit of a mess at the moment,and he doesn't have much wiggle room...."

The three strikeouts weren't good, but he was facing Chris Archer for most of those ABs and a lot of hitters look bad against Archer.  In his final AB, he tore a very sharp line drive that would normally have been a hit, but it happened to go right at Brad Miller.  A few inches to the left or right and it would have gone through for a very solid single or double.

He's also contributing defensively, preventing a near-certain run in the 1st inning by diving flat-out to stop a hit when Longoria was on 2nd base and set to score on any hit.

I think it's a little too early to give up on Colabello.  But yes, I wouldn't be surprised to see some regression from him this year. 
[ Reply to This ]
SK in NJ - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 09:47 AM EDT (#320357) #
I share ugly's skepticism about Colabello. His BABIP last season was .411, and in August/Sept/Oct of last season it was over .450. That's beyond unsustainable. To put that in perspective, Ted Williams never had a BABIP above .378 in any single season in his career and he was a career .344 hitter. Now, it's possible that Colabello can still be a productive MLB hitter if he hits .270 or so, and Smoak's career to this point certainly does not warrant a guaranteed spot, but I think Gibby would be better off going with a strict platoon with those two and seeing what happens. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Smoak takes the job full-time by May or June.

I'm rooting for Colabello. He's a great story. I'm just not expecting much out of him this year, and I think Smoak still has a bit of upside left.
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 09:57 AM EDT (#320359) #
Interesting to see that Franklin Morales is the first Scott Boras client to play for the Jays since Brad Wilkerson in 2008.  Shi Davidi says the unofficial boycott of Boras clients is over.  Might open up a few more possibilities for the Jays in the future.

And speaking of agents:  that whole thing about Gavin Floyd's agent being Shapiro's father was apparently untrue.  In any event, it was such a strange conspiracy theory -- the notion that the Jays would give a rotation spot to Floyd simply because of his agent's connection to the president -- and the theory ended up being false anyway.  He didn't get a rotation spot.

[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 09:58 AM EDT (#320360) #
For what it's worth, I believe that the best lineup that the Jays can field against RHP has Pompey in left, Saunders in right and Bautista at first base.  That might happen at some time in July.  For now, Pompey's job is to dominate triple A.
[ Reply to This ]
joeblow - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#320367) #
First place wire-to-wire is still in play, as is 162-0. All in all a good opening day.
[ Reply to This ]
John Northey - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#320378) #
As is matching the 1993 team's never being swept in a series all year, not even in a 2 game set. I remember being afraid they were going to blow that in the last 2 game set of the year, games 6/7 in Philly, then Carter hit the home run and it didn't matter.
[ Reply to This ]
Alex Obal - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 05:06 PM EDT (#320385) #
Tonite's lineup: 6 righties, 3 lefties.

You be the manager. Top 8, Rays lead 5-4, Colabello leads off with a single. Xavier Cedeno in to pitch to face Saunders, Goins and Thole. Who pinch-hits, if anyone, and in what order? Do you burn the whole bench in one inning?
[ Reply to This ]
Vulg - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#320387) #
You be the manager. Top 8, Rays lead 5-4, Colabello leads off with a single. Xavier Cedeno in to pitch to face Saunders, Goins and Thole. Who pinch-hits, if anyone, and in what order? Do you burn the whole bench in one inning?

I sure do. Smoak in for Goins. Martin in for Thole (both result in L vs. R matchups). You have Barney on the bench for the defensive adjustment and can keep Smoak in at 1B.

The good guys have Osuna waiting in the wings and the bad guys have an anemic offense. I'd go for it.
[ Reply to This ]
Alex Obal - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#320388) #
So Saunders bats for himself even though his spot is the only one guaranteed to face the lefty pitcher? (I neglected to mention that Steve Geltz is ready in the bullpen, I'm not good at this game...)

[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 06:12 PM EDT (#320389) #
Carrera runs for Colabello.  Martin pinch-hits for Saunders.  Smoak pinch-hits for Thole.  I'd make the Goins decision depending on the game situation then, but odds are pretty good that he would hit. 
[ Reply to This ]
JohnL - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#320390) #

the last 2 game set of the year, games 6/7 in Philly

In Philly? Could have sworn I was at the SkyDome for game 6...

[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 06:31 PM EDT (#320391) #
Damn lineup dyslexia.  I'd make a decision on Goins after the Martin at-bat.  With runners on first and second, I'd let him stay in and bunt against Cedeno. 
[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#320392) #
Josh Thole?  All right.  Maybe I won't pinch-hit for him in the 8th!  You've got to mention that he homered in the 3rd inning, Alex...
[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 08:20 PM EDT (#320393) #
You Be The Manager.  Now with passive-aggressive reverse mojo.
[ Reply to This ]
Alex Obal - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 08:29 PM EDT (#320394) #
I'm not even sure what the point was, but it must have been a good one.
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#320395) #
I'm gonna enjoy Saunders this year.
[ Reply to This ]
JB21 - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 09:01 PM EDT (#320396) #
I thought Tulo was getting a new glove for 2016?
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#320397) #
pulling dickey in the 6th on 80 pitches due to an error...just for the pleasure of bringing in jesse chavez. frowny face.
[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 09:11 PM EDT (#320398) #
So I guess that it's Cecil to face Morrison, Longoria and Dickerson.
[ Reply to This ]
JB21 - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 09:13 PM EDT (#320399) #
in 2015 batters hit 324/375/541 vs RA Dickey the 4th time through the order.
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 09:32 PM EDT (#320400) #
more homers plz
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 09:57 PM EDT (#320401) #
tough inning fir Storen, but that's a sweeet pitch to get out of it.
[ Reply to This ]
SK in NJ - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 10:12 PM EDT (#320402) #
Loving the back end of the the bullpen with Cecil-Storen-Osuna. It will make Gibby's bullpen use a lot easier to manage this season. Storen worked out of the jam nicely.
[ Reply to This ]
katman - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 10:13 PM EDT (#320403) #
#OsunaMatata !!!
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 10:16 PM EDT (#320404) #
things unfolding as planned so far

a good start by sanchez and we're cooking with gas.
[ Reply to This ]
Shoeless Joe - Monday, April 04 2016 @ 11:28 PM EDT (#320406) #
#OsunaMatata
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 07:34 AM EDT (#320408) #
Last night's sequence of relief pitchers (Chavez-Cecil-Storen-Osuna) is certainly a preview of what we'll see more often this season.  The roles seem right, and it worked last night.  But the Jays can't use those relievers every day, so what happens tonight if Sanchez goes only 5 or 6 innings?  If it's a close game and Sanchez has to leave after 5 or 6 innings, I'd like to see Floyd pitching a 2-inning stint, or even more.  He's the one who is stretched out.  He looked great in the pre-season, and he might be needed in the rotation later this year.  He wants to be a starter.  So give him multiple innings.  There's really nobody else in the bullpen who looks ready for multiple innings.  Chavez would be the logical one, but Gibbons seems to prefer him in short bursts, like last night.  If Floyd is going to be the swing man, I hope he gets multiple innings when the opportunity arises.

On the other hand, maybe Sanchez will match his buddy Stroman and pitch 8 innings tonight.  In that scenario, do you go back to Osuna for a third day in a row?  Or do you go to Cecil or Storen?

[ Reply to This ]
scottt - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 08:26 AM EDT (#320411) #
I'm resigned to see Tampa win all the match ups.

They have enough lefties to give Morales an inning, but they'll probably pinch hit no matter what.

Gibby pulled Cola to give himself 4 left bats in a row last night.

Despite starting against 2 right handed pitchers, Saunders has had 5 AB against lefties and 3 against righties.


[ Reply to This ]
SK in NJ - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 08:35 AM EDT (#320412) #
I doubt Osuna will have many 3-days-in-a-row outings at all, much less this early in the season, but who knows. I hope he doesn't. Certainly with Storen and Cecil available they could go without Osuna if they have a small lead late. They'll just have to bridge to the 8th. Gibbons will have to use Leon/Biagini, Floyd, and Morales at some point. With Sanchez's issues against LHB, I expect Morales to make an appearance tonight.
[ Reply to This ]
Jonny German - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 08:42 AM EDT (#320413) #
Despite starting against 2 right handed pitchers, Saunders has had 5 AB against lefties and 3 against righties.

Drew Smyly is a lefty, but don't let trivial facts get in your way.
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 09:13 AM EDT (#320414) #
I'm somehow slightly nervous with Storen on the mound.  I can see that he's got great stuff, but -- going back to his pre-season games -- he never seems to pitch clean innings.  Very small sample size of course.  But he had an up-and-down season last year, so I'm not entirely comfortable with him yet.  Cecil might be a better choice for closer tonight.
[ Reply to This ]
Chuck - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 09:14 AM EDT (#320415) #
I'm wondering how Alex is going to affect tonight's outcome with his fistful of hypotheticals. He was Mr. Mojo Risin' last night.
[ Reply to This ]
JohnL - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 09:27 AM EDT (#320416) #

Cecil might be a better choice for closer tonight.

If he gets a clean inning tonight, he'll set a new MLB record for consecutive games without allowing an earned run.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=Q05yH

[ Reply to This ]
Richard S.S. - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 09:40 AM EDT (#320418) #
Gibbons needs to decide if Osuna closes today for the third straight game. Does he close in four straight games or five straight games? The second decision is does he close in three out of four games or in four out of five nights or in five out of six games? This is why he has two closers on his team. If he's unwilling to use both, the Jays need to trade one of them.
[ Reply to This ]
CeeBee - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 09:47 AM EDT (#320419) #
I'd rather win the game than the match-ups any day of the week. So far so good :)
[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:07 AM EDT (#320420) #
I thought that the match-ups worked out pretty well.  Cash brought on Pearce to face Cecil in the 7th (and he did hit the ball hard) but that meant that Osuna faced Pearce in the 9th.  Cecil does the lefty cleaning in the 7th and is pretty effective against hitters from both sides. This sets the table for Osuna in the 9th.  It works for me. 
[ Reply to This ]
Lylemcr - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:35 AM EDT (#320421) #
Richard, your logic makes no sense. The Yankees have 3 closers and they don't need to trade any of them. A strong bullpen is a good thing.

I think the Rays took a step back this year. Some of the "Upgrades" like Miller and Morrison are downgrades. I think it is going to be a long season for them.

Go Jays. 2-0!

[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 11:26 AM EDT (#320422) #
Just a reminder that Saunders is one you don't have to worry about matchups for.

Since 2012 (age 25):

vRHP: 904pa, 108wrc+
vLHP: 424pa, 109wrc+
[ Reply to This ]
Spifficus - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 11:40 AM EDT (#320423) #
Tangential to Saunders' lack of platoon splits, I've been wondering about a weird consequence of keeping the more talented right-handed bats all clustered together. There's no longer a built-in reason to bring in a fresh pitcher. I wonder if having a righty in for a guaranteed inning (or until his departure is forced) provides some offset to the platoon advantage he gets.
[ Reply to This ]
Richard S.S. - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 12:01 PM EDT (#320426) #
First tell me how often/how many consecutive games should Osuna pitch? It's extremely possible the Jays are in two more save situations their series' sweep. That was the whole idea behind the posting. At some point, there won't be so many saves in a row, but until then, not having a policy seems somewhat lacking. Commenting on my conclusion without any comment on the question makes it seem you don't care.

My conclusion is simple, Gibbons either trusts his pitchers or he doesn't. If Storen doesn't close Game Three, why is he and his $8.375 MM contract on the Roster? The whole idea behind having two really good Closers on the Roster, is so one Closer never ever gets overworked. This Season will never be mistake free and it must be, so let's just hope that those mistakes don't cost games.
[ Reply to This ]
John Northey - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#320427) #
I suspect tonight Osuna has the day off, Storen closes and Cecil sets up with the rest of the pen being ready to go. I expect Gavin Floyd is #1 in line to get in next, Arnold Leon, Joe Biagini, and Franklin Morales all waiting for their first chance as a Jay. Phew. 4 guys as rested as can be plus 3 others with just 1 game/1 inning each. Yeah, Osuna should have today off unless it goes 16 innings or something bizarre.
[ Reply to This ]
#2JBrumfield - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 12:14 PM EDT (#320428) #
Random thoughts on Game 2...

I was glad to see the umps got it right on Thole's home run. It was more clear cut than that Moustakas homer from the ALCS. Also, I wonder if Pillar gets tonight off after nearly killing himself. I also hope Tulo gets a new glove. Glad that didn't come back to haunt them.

I also see Franklin Morales has been given #56 so I guess Mark Buehrle really isn't coming back. Unbelievably, the first guy who popped into my head when I thought of #56 was Brian Tallet.

Here's a trivia question. Who was the first Jay to wear those digits?

[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 12:27 PM EDT (#320429) #
"The whole idea behind having two really good Closers on the Roster, is so one Closer never ever gets overworked. "

no. the whole idea behind having multiple good relievers is so that we have multiple good relievers.
[ Reply to This ]
Dewey - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 12:46 PM EDT (#320431) #
This Season will never be mistake free and it must be, so let's just hope that those mistakes don't cost games.

Richard, can you explain what that sentence means, please?   What does “it must be” refer to? 
[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#320434) #
"It must be" was, I am sure, an alternative Lennon and MacCartney considered for "Let it be".  In the end, they decided that the lines "whisper words of wisdom, it must be" lacked a certain je ne sais quoi.

On a related point, John Lott reports that Josh Donaldson's music tastes range from Jewel to Johnny Cash to Disturbed to Chris Stapleton.  I wonder about Steve Earle.  

[ Reply to This ]
Jevant - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 01:44 PM EDT (#320435) #
I've never been a LoMo fan at all, but I was impressed with the way he handled it post-game.
[ Reply to This ]
Jevant - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#320437) #
"It must be" was, I am sure, an alternative Lennon and MacCartney considered for "Let it be". In the end, they decided that the lines "whisper words of wisdom, it must be" lacked a certain je ne sais quoi. Many thanks, Mike, for the afternoon laugh. You win the internets today.
[ Reply to This ]
pubster - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#320440) #
I think Osuna only threw 7 pitches yesterday.

If Sanchez goes 8 innings today and the Jays need a save, then sure you can go with Cecil/Storen to be safe. However, if Sanchez only goes 5 then you'll probably need to burn Cecil/Storen earlier in the game so Osuna gets the 9th.

So basically the bullpen gets taxed if starters can't go deep into games.
[ Reply to This ]
pubster - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 03:51 PM EDT (#320441) #
Also for what it's worth, Storen has thrown 23 pitches this season, Osuna has thrown 27.

Yesterday Storen threw 23, Osuna threw 7.

So who's more in need of a rest today?
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#320442) #
"...Storen has thrown 23 pitches this season, Osuna has thrown 27...."

Fair point.  And Gibbons certainly regards Osuna as a work-horse, so he might indeed favor him in the 9th inning tonight.

But it's not quite fair to compare the two pitchers purely on the basis of their official pitch count at this point, because Osuna has twice the number of warm-up pitches.  He got into two games, so he had a full preparation twice, including a full battery of warm-up pitches, many of which were at full velocity and full effort, while Storen only went through that once. 
[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#320443) #
Let's say that the Jays lead 6-3 after 6 innings and Sanchez is done.  I'd be inclined to let Floyd finish the game if he's throwing reasonably well.  Then you've got a whole flotilla available to follow Happ, and a day off after. 
[ Reply to This ]
pubster - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#320444) #
China fan, great point about the warm up pitches.


[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#320445) #
Smoak gets the start tonight at first base. Saunders continues to bat 7th.  I wonder how long that will last.
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#320446) #
Gibbons has just told the media that Osuna, in fact, won't be available tonight, because of his back-to-back appearances over the past 2 days.
[ Reply to This ]
JB21 - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 06:20 PM EDT (#320447) #
Syndergaard is putting on an absolute show today. His stuff is... I don't know. 95 MPH sliders, averaging 98 MPH on sinkers. This is not normal.
[ Reply to This ]
scottt - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#320448) #
Drew Smyly is a lefty, but don't let trivial facts get in your way.

Of course he is. It's not like I didn't watch that game either.

Smoak
Saunders
Martin
Goins

with another lefty starting tomorrow.

Nothing to complain about.

[ Reply to This ]
scottt - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 07:07 PM EDT (#320449) #
Still got Leon/Biagini, Floyd, and Morales.

Sanchez and Floyd could combo for a whole game.
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 07:10 PM EDT (#320450) #
Historically, Gibbons hasn't liked to use any of his relievers on three consecutive days. (I investigated this during his first tour - he would occasionally use Downs three days in a row, but that was it. Gibbons was kind of the anti-Joe Maddon in this respect - Maddon has been known to use the same reliever on five consecutive days.) Anyway, last year, Osuna never pitched on three consecutive days. Neither did any of the other RH relief pitchers. Brett Cecil and Aaron Loup both appeared on three consecutive days twice.
[ Reply to This ]
scottt - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 07:20 PM EDT (#320451) #
a weird consequence of keeping the more talented right-handed bats all clustered together. There's no longer a built-in reason to bring in a fresh pitcher. I wonder if having a righty in for a guaranteed inning (or until his departure is forced) provides some offset to the platoon advantage he gets.

I'm not sure I follow you.

You're saying we're forcing Tampa into changing relievers too frequently?
They have 8 on the team because they left their #5 starter in AAA.
Or do you mean we keep them from throwing a fresh inning each?
So far they haven't had too many inherited runners to worry about.
It's tempting to keep a lefty for Pillar if there is a runner on first, but I'm sure they want a right handed guy to throw to Donaldson.

Maybe the only consequence is that the Jays are given those Tampa relievers reverse splits.


[ Reply to This ]
Spifficus - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 07:53 PM EDT (#320452) #
I'm not sure I'm following what you think I'm offering to follow... I think?

It was more a general thought that had been rattling around my brain for the past year or so, not anything about the Tampa series in particular. It's a common thought that the Jays are heavily penalized later in the game because the the opposing team can play matchups. I was just thinking that the absence of LOOGY/ROOGY changes might mean the Jays see a reliever a bit longer than normal, increasing the chances for fatigue and mistakes. Though, it's probably just a case of my brain trying to be too cute by half. Also, I didn't mean it as something to try to do, but moreso to not worry about it as much if that's how things work out.
[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 08:09 PM EDT (#320453) #
Nice pitch selection against Morrison and Longoria.  Sanchez' curveball doesn't have to be great for it to be effective.
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 08:41 PM EDT (#320454) #
Odorizzi's thrown 16 pitches to Bautista tonight. Exactly one of them was a fastball in the strike zone (he's no fool.)

It was one too many, of course.
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 09:00 PM EDT (#320455) #
That's First Base 101, as Tabler points out. Two quick steps into the infield and you've got a path to make the throw.
[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#320456) #
...and with Smoak running, it's not as though the two steps will make a difference.
[ Reply to This ]
CeeBee - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#320457) #
Sanchez is looking as good as he did in spring training. nice!!!!
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#320458) #
They've actually given Smoak a stolen base? Surely that's a pickoff-caught stealing, error on the first baseman.
[ Reply to This ]
JB21 - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 09:33 PM EDT (#320459) #
Sanchez 8 k's and 0 bb's. I like this Sanchez.
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 09:44 PM EDT (#320460) #
Not only did Sanchez allow zero walks.  He also allowed as many as three balls just TWICE in the entire game.
[ Reply to This ]
pubster - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#320461) #
Great start by Sanchez. My only complaint (and its a small one) is that I wouldve preferred this start to have taken place in AAA.

Its just good asset management ;)
[ Reply to This ]
JB21 - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#320462) #
Well, eventually Cecil was going to give up a ER. Sucks that it's after Sanchez's gem of a start. Time for the O to wake up...
[ Reply to This ]
SK in NJ - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#320463) #
Cecil is the guy you want in these situations. He just didn't have anything tonight. You could tell from the first batter he faced that he was off. Even the out he made was to the warning track. Hopefully the Jays can get the bats going in the 9th.

Regarding Sanchez, wow. His GB rate + good command is a mid-rotation starter. His GB + good command + a reliable off speed pitch to generate K's is a potential front of the rotation SP. I won't get too excited after 1 start, but man, he looked good tonight. Last season he didn't look like a MLB starter. This season he looks like someone I would feel comfortable with on the mound. What a difference. Let's see if it carries over, but so far so good. Keep working out with Stroman during the winter, Aaron.
[ Reply to This ]
Smaj - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#320464) #
Hanger was crunched by Forsythe. Jays have struck out 25 times so far in this series with Donaldson leading the way at 5
[ Reply to This ]
pubster - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:03 PM EDT (#320465) #
Sanchez's last few starts last season were also very good.
[ Reply to This ]
Shoeless Joe - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:04 PM EDT (#320466) #
So um yeah, Sanchez is a starter!
[ Reply to This ]
BlueJayWay - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:19 PM EDT (#320467) #
0-1 in one run games.
[ Reply to This ]
JB21 - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:19 PM EDT (#320468) #
Joey did not need to do that... that hurts.
[ Reply to This ]
Ishai - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:19 PM EDT (#320469) #
Guess the league has a shiny new rule they want to use. Edwin might have beat the throw anyway.
[ Reply to This ]
vw_fan17 - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:19 PM EDT (#320470) #
0-1 in one run games.

I think that should read: 0-1 in one run games (*)
[ Reply to This ]
JB21 - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:21 PM EDT (#320471) #
I'm not too sure how you can argue against the call... he literally reached out to grab his leg.
[ Reply to This ]
Shoeless Joe - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:22 PM EDT (#320472) #
That was garbage! Even Forsythe said he didn't even feel Joey post game!
[ Reply to This ]
John Northey - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:23 PM EDT (#320473) #
The question becomes where is the line on this stuff?

Appears to be the line is if you lightly touch them you are out. Pretty nutty way to decide a game. I'm sure the Rays players are saying to each other 'what a dumb way to win but we'll take it'.
[ Reply to This ]
scottt - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:23 PM EDT (#320474) #
Maybe Colome for 2 innings wasn't a good idea. The Rays are not really sure who to use for closer.
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:23 PM EDT (#320475) #
Joey did not need to do that... that hurts.

Actually, he did. I think it's a pretty easy DP otherwise. But my gosh... if the new rule regards that as what the Utley rule was created for.... That's not barrelling into someone with your legs and spikes. That's not going to break the second baseman's leg.
[ Reply to This ]
Spifficus - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:26 PM EDT (#320476) #
And there was nothing above the knee (which is another major point of that rule). I just don't see how that call's made.
[ Reply to This ]
mathesond - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:26 PM EDT (#320477) #
The one chuckle I got from that ending was listening to Gregg Zaun rail against the sissification of the game.
[ Reply to This ]
Smaj - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:27 PM EDT (#320478) #
Tough to lose on such a "soft" rule. Is the rule a zero tolerance on contact around the bag?

At the end of the day the Jays stranded too many runners (EE stranded 8 tonight). Far too many K's on offence with 36 after 3 games. Rays pitching is very good, but the big boys aren't in synch yet.
[ Reply to This ]
Chuck - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:27 PM EDT (#320479) #
Was this really an application of the new rule? Or would Bautista's hand swipe have been penalized no matter what?
[ Reply to This ]
SK in NJ - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:30 PM EDT (#320480) #
Bautista did look like he interfered with the base runner, whether intentionally or not. Enough to overturn the entire play and give the Rays two outs when Edwin beat the throw anyway? Eh. That's the way baseball is going to be now, I guess. Unfortunately the Jays were on the receiving end of the league trying to make a statement. What a horrible way to lose a game, especially one as winnable as this one.

The Tropicana Curse was not broken last season. Something strange is still out there.
[ Reply to This ]
BlueMonday - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:32 PM EDT (#320481) #
I can see the call against Joey, but disagree with the assumption they get the double play on the subsequent throw. Allow Goin's run and put Donaldson back to 3rd.
[ Reply to This ]
Eephus - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:33 PM EDT (#320482) #
Back to the drawing board, MLB. This kind of stuff is not good for business.
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:36 PM EDT (#320483) #
Was this really an application of the new rule?

Apparently not. Just old-fashioned interference.

Of course, if it hadn't been for the new rule, no one would have even thought of looking at the replay.
[ Reply to This ]
Eephus - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:37 PM EDT (#320484) #
disagree with the assumption they get the double play on the subsequent throw. Allow Goin's run and put Donaldson back to 3rd.

This is exactly my biggest issue. I think umpires, scorers or whomever just can't assume a double play no matter what. Anything can happen, the fielders gotta actually do it.
[ Reply to This ]
DJRob - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:37 PM EDT (#320485) #
As far as I can see, the rule states that if the runner makes illegal contact with the fielder, both the runner and the batter are out.
[ Reply to This ]
Spifficus - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:38 PM EDT (#320486) #

The only way it can be reviewed is if it's rule 6.01(j) (from section V (K) here):

NOTE: Other than for purposes of determining whether the runner interfered with a fielder within the meaning of Rule 6.01(j), whether a base runner willfully or deliberately interfered with a fielder with the intent to break up a double play, within the meaning of Rule 6.01(a)(6) or (7), shall not be reviewable.

So it had to have been a 6.01(j) violation, which reads:

The runner attempting to break up a double play must engage in a bona fide slide. This means the runner: 1) Begins his slide and makes contact with the ground before reaching the base; 2) Is able and attempts to reach the base with his hand or foot; 3) Is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home) after completing the slide; and 4) Slides within reach without changing his path for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder.

[ Reply to This ]
SK in NJ - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:40 PM EDT (#320487) #
Yeah, looking at the replay, it does not look like the Utley rule at all. It's straight up interference. Bautista was wrong, and unfortunately I think the umps got it right. You can certainly make the argument that the Utley slide contributed to slides like this being more scrutinized, but the play itself was not related to that. Bautista interfered with the play, at least the way I saw it.
[ Reply to This ]
Chuck - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:45 PM EDT (#320488) #
Of course, if it hadn't been for the new rule, no one would have even thought of looking at the replay.

Okay, so that makes sense in a mobius strip kind of way. Everyone is railing against the new rule -- sissification! -- whose controversial existence caused a legitimate, but different crime to have been identified.

Bautista shouldn't have done that. Not that it risked injury, even in the slightest. It just risked an interference call.

[ Reply to This ]
ComebyDeanChance - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:47 PM EDT (#320489) #
I thought it was the right call. I thought the only bad call was the unfortunately predictable one from John Gibbons, to take out Aaron Sanchez when he'd thrown only 91 pitches in an efficient game in which he'd retired the last 11 hitters in a row, the last two by strikeout, because the first batter of the 8th hit left.
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:49 PM EDT (#320490) #
1) Begins his slide and makes contact with the ground before reaching the base; 2) Is able and attempts to reach the base with his hand or foot; 3) Is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home) after completing the slide; and 4) Slides within reach without changing his path for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder.

Obviously, the slide didn't violate Parts 1-3. So they're saying he changed his path to initiate contact.
[ Reply to This ]
Spifficus - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:49 PM EDT (#320491) #
But can you overturn a non-reviewable call discovered by the process of reviewing a reviewable call? I mean, that leads to all kinds of backdoor review shenanigan possibilities.
[ Reply to This ]
ComebyDeanChance - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:49 PM EDT (#320492) #
I can see the call against Joey, but disagree with the assumption they get the double play on the subsequent throw.

But that's the penalty for interfering on the double play - the runner at first is called safe.
[ Reply to This ]
Alex Obal - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:52 PM EDT (#320493) #
It's a Dusty Finish!
[ Reply to This ]
Spifficus - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:53 PM EDT (#320494) #
Considering he slid over top of the base, I'd love to hear a detailed explanation of what path he changed to initiate contact. It'd be a very interesting concept if 'path' was dictated by 'arm'.
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:54 PM EDT (#320495) #
It just risked an interference call.

Yeah, but with Edwin coming out of the box, you kind of have to risk it. A good turn and throw at second and the game's over anyway.
[ Reply to This ]
Chuck - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 10:55 PM EDT (#320496) #
But can you overturn a non-reviewable call discovered by the process of reviewing a reviewable call?

Ah, the fruit of the poisonous tree defence. Bring on the lawyers!

[ Reply to This ]
Spifficus - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 11:04 PM EDT (#320497) #
Well, if non-reviewable overturns are allowed you end up with crazy scenarios. Like, if a hitter gets called out on a dubious check swing to end the game, I'd appeal to see if he was hit by the pitch (V (G)). Actually, it's interesting in that description that they also explicitly describe what isn't reviewable (if the batter made an attempt to get out of the way, or if the pitch was a strike), just like they have in the 6.01(j) review rules.
[ Reply to This ]
JB21 - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 11:04 PM EDT (#320498) #
I disagree that you have to risk it, unless you think you can hide it from the camera, I guess.

I also thought that Eddie could've potentially beat it out without Joey's help, I didn't think Joey really did that much to alter the play, but he certainly looked very guilty.
[ Reply to This ]
Spifficus - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 11:07 PM EDT (#320499) #
Actually, because of the wording, I don't think V.G could be manipulated that way (since I think there needs to be a pre-existing judgement by the umpire that the ball actually hit something), but yeah. And if any manager would try to do something like that, it's Mr Replay.
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 11:30 PM EDT (#320500) #
The rule book also says a batter is entitled to first base when he's touched by a pitched ball unless he "makes no attempt to avoid being touched by the ball."

Grumble, grumble...
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 11:44 PM EDT (#320501) #
Meanwhile, Bill Madlock walks the streets, a free man.

Those were the days, eh?
[ Reply to This ]
JB21 - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 11:49 PM EDT (#320502) #
As a huge GIbby fan his post game comments make me pretty sad. Disappointing stuff from the leader of your favourite team.
[ Reply to This ]
electric carrot - Tuesday, April 05 2016 @ 11:57 PM EDT (#320503) #
I only watched the replay once but it seemed clear to me that a) Bautista affected the throw and b) A good throw gets Edwin.
[ Reply to This ]
JB21 - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 12:20 AM EDT (#320504) #
IMO he was double clutching before Joey hit him, I don't think he was going to make the play.
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 12:59 AM EDT (#320505) #
Stupid move by Joey, but then again if he doesn't do it we lose anyways.

But I'm too stoked about Sanchez' dominance and command to be upset about this game. That's a much more important development than the loss.
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 01:15 AM EDT (#320506) #
"thought it was the right call. I thought the only bad call was the unfortunately predictable one from John Gibbons, to take out Aaron Sanchez when he'd thrown only 91 pitches in an efficient game in which he'd retired the last 11 hitters in a row, the last two by strikeout, because the first batter of the 8th hit lef"

he made the opposite decision in game 1. didn't turn out well.
[ Reply to This ]
Spifficus - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:47 AM EDT (#320507) #
Yeah, that was the exact right time to take Sanchez out. He will be handled conservatively through the year to manage his workload, and on top of that it was his first start of the year. No complaints from me.
[ Reply to This ]
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 05:09 AM EDT (#320508) #
Whether the Umpire's call was the right one or not does not matter. This was MLB's first chance in a meaningful game, at a meaningful time to enforce their new rule, their new "toy". The Blue Jays were never going to win the review.

I fully expect the Blue Jays to lose some calls they should win. Losing calls that might be questionable should be expected. But when MLB has something in line, they never lose.
[ Reply to This ]
Alex Obal - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 06:22 AM EDT (#320509) #
affect tonight's outcome with his fistful of hypotheticals

Pin that loss on me. My bad.

You be the manager. Bottom of the 4th, tied 3-3. Happ has 4 strikeouts and 2 walks. (The damage was a three-run homer in the second by Souza.) Kiermaier leads off with a pop fly to right and reaches second on an E9 when Bautista loses the ball in the roof. Casali walks on five pitches. Happ's pitch count is now 70. First and second, nobody out, Forsythe, Pearce, Longoria, and Dickerson are due up. Bullpen? When? If so, who? Did you have anyone warming up to start the inning?
[ Reply to This ]
scottt - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 07:30 AM EDT (#320510) #
With a day of rest and back to Stroman, I figure Gibby will try to give some work to Floyd.
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 07:31 AM EDT (#320511) #
"....Bullpen? When? If so, who? Did you have anyone warming up to start the inning?..."

In the scenario that you describe:  no, I would leave Happ in the game until he gets closer to 90 pitches.  The only exception would be if Gibbons and Walker are convinced that Happ is running out of gas.  If they detect that his pitches are getting notably worse, you bring in a reliever.  But from your description, it seems quite likely that Happ still has plenty of gas in the tank, despite some bad results.  So I keep him in.  Here's why:

1) As a general principle, you leave your starters in the game until 90 or so pitches, unless they are badly tiring and getting knocked around.  From your description, it doesn't seem that this is the case.  Happ allowed a home run -- apparently the only big hit against him. He suffered bad luck on the pop fly that was lost in the lights.  He allowed three walks, but that by itself isn't sufficient reason to pull him.  Runners on 1st and 2nd -- he has a chance to get a double-play ball and minimize the damage.  Even if he allows a run in the inning, it's still a close game.

2) If you pull your starters after 3 innings, it's bad for the bullpen, and it's bad for the morale of the starter.  Happ is facing a bit of a mess, but it's not entirely his fault, and he deserves a chance to pitch out of it.  After the pop fly, he gave up a walk, but he might have pitched Casali cautiously to set up the double play.  Lots of starters give up early runs and still reach the 5th or 6th inning. 

3) Of all the above factors, the key one is the bullpen.  You don't want to put strain on the key relievers, even with an off-day on Thursday. You've already used a bunch of relievers in the first three games of the series.  And frankly I'd rather have Happ pitching than someone like Biagini or Leon. 

I would have a reliever warming up if Happ fails to get out of his mess in the 4th inning.  If he gives up an extra-base hit, or allows another walk or two, that's when you get a reliever warming up.  But until then, I assume that Happ has a good chance of pitching out of that difficult situation.


[ Reply to This ]
Beyonder - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 07:47 AM EDT (#320512) #
What was wrong with Gibby's comments JB21? I watched a truncated version of the interview this morning but didn't hear anything surprising.
[ Reply to This ]
Jevant - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 07:55 AM EDT (#320513) #
It *might* have been interference (I struggle with the imputing of intent on Bautista), but I am pretty concerned if the umps didn't call it live, the Rays didn't react until someone in their video centre said "hey wait, we can maybe get out of this one"...you can see in the replay that Cash isn't even reacting/moving at all like it's interference, and then you can review that and call it. What, exactly is the incentive for a 2B/SS to not simply go down soccer-style upon ANY contact on a slide? If they are going to call that on Bautista, you have to think they have to call just about everything.
[ Reply to This ]
Chuck - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 08:05 AM EDT (#320514) #
I struggle with the imputing of intent on Bautista

You don't think there was intent on Bautista's part when he swatted at Forsythe's foot? It looked pretty deliberate and not at all random.

Bautista is a terrific player but it seems that he sometimes behaves as if he thinks he's a little more clever than everyone else. Throwing behind Kiermaier earlier in the series, for example.

[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 08:07 AM EDT (#320515) #
Gibbons said “I guess we’ll come out wearing dresses tomorrow. Maybe that’s what everybody’s looking for.”

The rule was invoked on Opening Day, in the Washington-Atlanta game in a somewhat similar situation (the game was tied in this case when Olivera hit a grounder to third base). Nick Markakis slid directly at Daniel Murphy with his legs, while reaching for the base with his right hand. Markakis didn't actually make contact with Murphy until the throw was well on its way (it was late, the ball was hit too slowly to turn two), but interference was called and the batter was called out as well.
[ Reply to This ]
Jevant - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 08:13 AM EDT (#320516) #
I'm still not sure I see a change in the path of his hand during the slide. If you want to say that his hand shouldn't have been there, I'm not sure where it goes. The slide apparently was only nixed because he went past the bag and didn't make an attempt to stay on it, which seems like an extremely questionable judgment call, because as Bautista notes, he's out and he's still in contact (or right beside) the base. I'm not sure it had any impact on the throw (Forsythe even confirms that), and again - there's literally no incentive for a 2B/SS to not try to flop to get interference on the slightest contact now, which also has the added benefit of the play going dead.

And, fwiw, Bautista IS more clever than most baseball players.

I do struggle with calls that are clearly "judgment" calls being decided by replay.
[ Reply to This ]
Parker - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 08:15 AM EDT (#320517) #
I guess that type of comment from Gibbons is to be expected - he can't very well say that his star slugger threw the game away all by himself. I doubt it'd be good for clubhouse morale.
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 08:23 AM EDT (#320518) #
You don't think there was intent on Bautista's part when he swatted at Forsythe's foot? It looked pretty deliberate and not at all random.

Bautista seemed genuinely puzzled by the call, and I wonder if the new rule hasn't been explained fully to the players. All the emphasis has been on eliminating what Utley did - deliberately going into an infielder with your legs. But after the mention of the "roll block" the text of the rule does include the words "throwing his arm or his upper body."

It also says the runner needs to be able and needs to attempt to stay on the base after the conclusion of the slide, which neither Bautista or Markakis did. Bautista, after having the rule explained, didn't seem to be aware that he was required to stay on the bag (“I was already out, why is there a need for me to stay on the bag?")
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 08:28 AM EDT (#320519) #
I can see that "attempts to remain on the base" wording causing all kinds of problems. If Markakis, say, had gone straight at the base and not made any contact with Murphy- could Washington still have got the double play because he ended up several feet past the base? If not, why not?
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 08:30 AM EDT (#320520) #
he can't very well say that his star slugger threw the game away all by himself.

True, but I'm pretty sure that Gibbons doesn't believe that's what happened. The man's not a complete idiot, and one would have to be a complete idiot to think that.
[ Reply to This ]
Chuck - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 08:36 AM EDT (#320521) #
This new rule, and all the inevitable challenges we will now see, could play out like the "skates in the crease" rule that resulted in numerous disallowed goals and needed to ultimately be revised.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I don't disagree that something had to be done to make illegal what Utley did last year, but I'm not sure what the proper solution is.

[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 08:39 AM EDT (#320522) #
Reaching out to interfere has always been illegal. It's not dven a new rule.

If someone made that slide against us to win the game we'd be screaming bloody murder.
[ Reply to This ]
CeeBee - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 08:44 AM EDT (#320523) #
next up.... double bag at first base. Some nasty collisions there too. Maybe eliminate sliding completely. Play it more like cricket. Now watch middle infielders try to game the system by hanging around the base a little bit longer hoping to get touched. Yep, love where this is going.
[ Reply to This ]
Chuck - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 08:46 AM EDT (#320524) #
Reaching out to interfere has always been illegal. It's not dven a new rule.

I agree with this statement and I agree the call was right. What Magpie and Spifficus have asserted, rightfully in my opinion, is that the new rule will serve as the purported basis for a challenge if only to sniff out whether old-fashioned, everyday interference took place.

[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 08:52 AM EDT (#320525) #
the "skates in the crease" rule that resulted in numerous disallowed goals and needed to ultimately be revised.

And then they decide not to enforce the rule in the Stanley Cup Final.

Obviously, the intent of the rule is to eliminate what Utley did last fall (and what Markakis did the other day.) It's still not clear - because as far as I know, there's been no official explanation, the game umpires themselves didn't seem to know - what part of the rule was being invoked. Because he reached for the foot? Because he didn't stay on the base (unlike Markakis, Bautista could have maintained contact with the bag quite easily, he just didn't see the point.)
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 08:54 AM EDT (#320526) #
If someone made that slide against us to win the game we'd be screaming bloody murder.

Well of course! Did you look at the link above to the Madlock slide? Almost thirty years ago, and we're still screaming bloody murder.
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 09:42 AM EDT (#320527) #
After last night, what are the chances we begin to see some middle infielders diving to try to get the call?

It'll be like the Premier League!

(Oh, I wish I hadn't said that. My Magpies on the verge of Relegation. Let us not speak of it.)
[ Reply to This ]
Lylemcr - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#320528) #
Just a crappy way to lose a game. I don't think the Jays had much of a chance to win it still.

I am very encouraged by Sanchez. I wish they would have got him the W.
[ Reply to This ]
JB21 - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 10:48 AM EDT (#320529) #
I still don't get how people can be mad, as soon as I saw the first replay I knew the Jays were going to lose. Joey's play was more "A-Rod vs. Arroyo in the playoffs" than "Utley's slide". You simply can't do what Joey did, and replay allowed him to be caught. They got the call right, end of story.

Re: Gibby's comments, I don't see how bashing women helps his team in that situation. No need for that.
[ Reply to This ]
pubster - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 10:57 AM EDT (#320530) #
Sorry if it's already been posted.

Just something to think about pregame

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2015/10/7/9464865/j-a-happ-pirates-the-cult-of-ray-searage-fastball
[ Reply to This ]
SK in NJ - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 11:28 AM EDT (#320531) #
People might be upset due to the biased commentary by Buck and Tabler (?). They made it seem like there was no way the call would be overturned, when looking at the replay clearly showed interference from Bautista, incidental or otherwise. The players voicing their displeasure afterwards is understandable, but Jose was wrong. Unfortunately, it cost the Jays a win. Whatever. I'm sure the Jays will steal a win from the jaws of defeat to even this out at some point. It's a long season. The umps got it right. Move on and win the series this afternoon.
[ Reply to This ]
John Northey - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#320532) #
The Madlock slide was very dirty and broke Tony Fernandez' arm, which ensured the Tigers won in that super-tight race. Rewatching the video he clearly was nowhere near the bag and was attempting to injure. That is what the rules are for. Not for when a guy is touching the bag and reaches out with a hand. Any secondbaseman or shortstop knows a baserunner will reach over and try to distract him, thus why they go far from the bag after. Fernandez went far away, the guy yesterday didn't. Guess the middle infielders are now like goalies - do not touch.
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 12:31 PM EDT (#320533) #
"....Gibbons said  'I guess we’ll come out wearing dresses tomorrow. Maybe that’s what everybody’s looking for'....."

A lot of people were offended by this, and I can't blame them.  It's tone-deaf and it reads like a swipe at women.  He should have expressed some kind of regret or apology today, but instead he said he was just trying to make a joke.  If it was a joke, it didn't work.  And when people are offended by something you say, the best response is NOT to say "lighten up."
[ Reply to This ]
James W - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#320534) #
Except there is no need for Bautista to be touching Forsythe, other than to interfere.
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 12:41 PM EDT (#320535) #
Sanchez' last 5 starts:

5gs, 7.0ip/gs, 18.7k%, 6.0bb%, 58.0gb%, 2.31era, 4.28fip, 3.41xfip
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#320536) #
"...At the end of the day the Jays stranded too many runners (EE stranded 8 tonight). Far too many K's on offence with 36 after 3 games...."

I agree with this.  The Jays had plenty of chances to win.   Their starter pitched a superb game.  The hitters just didn't do their job.  Rather than blaming a disputed call, why not accept that the hitters had lots of scoring chances and didn't get it done?

The hitters, in fact, seem to be competing to see who can get the most 3-2 counts.  Patience at the plate is a virtue, but it can also lead to strikeouts.  The Jays have managed to run up the pitch counts of every Rays starter so far, which is theoretically a very good thing, but then they're not hitting any better against the bullpen.  And in the meantime they are possibly losing their aggressiveness in good hitting opportunities.

All of this is just a minor grumble, of course.  The team is still 2-1 and their pitching has been excellent.  They suffered some bad luck in the 9th inning last night, but the luck tends to even out over the course of a season.  The hitters will improve.
[ Reply to This ]
hypobole - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#320537) #
If the Blue Jays players truly are as baffled by the play as they claim to be, either a) the league did not adequately inform teams what is and isn't permissible or b) the Jays did not adequately inform their players.
[ Reply to This ]
JB21 - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#320538) #
If the Blue Jays players truly are as baffled by the play as they claim to be, either a) the league did not adequately inform teams what is and isn't permissible or b) the Jays did not adequately inform their players.

To not grab a guy's leg?

[ Reply to This ]
JB21 - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 01:56 PM EDT (#320540) #
Oh ya, we have Josh Donaldson on our team.
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 02:00 PM EDT (#320541) #
To not grab a guy's leg?

Now, now. He didn't grab anyone's leg, unless he has grasping appendages between his wrist and upper forearm.

[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 02:02 PM EDT (#320542) #
I think this team might be better off with pompey in LF, and Joey/Saunders/EE sharing the RF/DH/1B slots.
[ Reply to This ]
JB21 - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 02:05 PM EDT (#320543) #
I agree ugly, Mike Green's idea is great IMO.
[ Reply to This ]
JB21 - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 02:08 PM EDT (#320544) #

Mapgie, I think you should've pressed pause a little earlier.

[ Reply to This ]
John Northey - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 02:09 PM EDT (#320545) #
I'm guessing by years end we might be seeing the 3 free agents moved around a bit. Saunders in RF, Bautista 1B, EE DH makes the most sense shuffle around once or twice a week so all get the DH break.
[ Reply to This ]
Spifficus - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#320546) #
That's not a grab so much as it's the first stage of the dreaded foot noogie take-out.
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 02:25 PM EDT (#320547) #
I still don't see anything in his hand.

Actually, when I first saw the replay I was horrified. But I was thinking "Geez, you hit with that hand."
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 02:26 PM EDT (#320548) #
jays take a lead, happ gives it right back. is this 2014?
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 02:31 PM EDT (#320549) #
"...jays take a lead, happ gives it right back...."

Nope.  He's a better pitcher now.
[ Reply to This ]
SK in NJ - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#320550) #
"jays take a lead, happ gives it right back. is this 2014?"


Happ's given up 4 singles (1 double), 0 walks, and 4 K's in 4 IP so far. Not exactly a bad outing to this point.
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 02:47 PM EDT (#320551) #
Looks like someone needs to explain the new rule to Brandon Guyer.

Hey, I'm grumpy. Merle Haggard died, OK?
[ Reply to This ]
Cracka - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#320552) #
Jays have done a great job working the opposing starter all series. Lots of deep counts and yes some strikeouts -- but they've forced the Rays to go deep three deep into their bullpen each night and that's a recipe that should favor the Jays all season.

Game 1: 107 pitches, 5.0 innings
Game 2: 98 picthes, 6.2 innings
Game 3: 111 pitches, 5.2 innings
Game 4: 102 pitches, 5.0 innings
[ Reply to This ]
Spifficus - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 02:57 PM EDT (#320553) #
ok, I'm glad I'm not crazy - I was wondering if I saw the start of a barrel role on that last slide...

In the end, I just hope they tighten up the rule - creating an expectation of where the runner is supposed to be is the most important safety aspect to the whole thing, not if he overslid the bag, or didn't drag his knuckles on the ground.
[ Reply to This ]
hypobole - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#320554) #
Happ's given up 4 singles (1 double), 0 walks, and 4 K's in 4 IP so far. Not exactly a bad outing to this point.

Good or bad outing depends on how much you dislike Happ and dislike the guy who signed Happ.
[ Reply to This ]
John Northey - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:05 PM EDT (#320555) #
Well, gave in and subscribed to MLB.tv (letting my satellite radio subscription end - it would've cost 3 times as much to keep). Can watch the game live on my computer - wasn't sure if it would work or not from Thunder Bay as I kept getting conflicting stuff on it. I'm happy :)

Sadly, got it just in time to see the weird home run off Happ that drove Pillar nuts. I suspect whenever they destroy that park he'll be there with a sledgehammer.
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:09 PM EDT (#320556) #
"....the weird home run off Happ that drove Pillar nuts...."

Yes, normally Pillar would have caught it.  He seemed to lose it briefly in the lights, and then wasn't able to get in the right position.   Still, it's quite a testament to Pillar's abilities that the Rays can hit a home run and we can say "Pillar should have had it."
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:13 PM EDT (#320557) #
Donaldson has some mystery ailment.  The Jays broadcasters have been talking about his sinuses, his nose, allergies or something.  But I've noticed him seeming to limp a little too.  And he didn't even run out that last hit, which potentially could have been an infield hit if he was running fast.
[ Reply to This ]
JohnL - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:30 PM EDT (#320558) #
Even when Martinez was talking about mystery ailment, it looked like Donaldson wasn't walking comfortably in the dugout.
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:33 PM EDT (#320559) #
Happ did as well as could be hoped for, though walking kiermaier who can't hit lhp at all to put the tying run on was annoying - but even deservedly getting into the 7th is a big deal for happ so good job.

even nicer job by floyd, the guy who arguably should have started today.
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:33 PM EDT (#320560) #
Happ did as well as could be hoped for, though walking kiermaier who can't hit lhp at all to put the tying run on was annoying - but even deservedly getting into the 7th is a big deal for happ so good job.

even nicer job by floyd, the guy who arguably should have started today.
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#320561) #
ach now this is a questionable hook.
[ Reply to This ]
SK in NJ - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#320562) #
Why not just keep Floyd in rather than bringing in Leon? That's a very questionable move by Gibbons.
[ Reply to This ]
Chuck - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#320563) #
Why Leon in such a high leverage situation?
[ Reply to This ]
pubster - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#320564) #
I had no problem with Gibbon's comment about wearing dresses.

But I'm old school =)
[ Reply to This ]
Chuck - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#320565) #
That was posted before the HR.
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#320566) #
dammit gibby
[ Reply to This ]
SK in NJ - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#320567) #
Gibbons with about the worst bullpen management I have seen in a while. Never mind that Floyd was doing well (he was giving up singles) but to bring in waiver wire fodder in that situation? There was no split advantage or anything. What was the point? I could understand if a lefty was up and he brought in Morales, but why Leon?

Horrible.
[ Reply to This ]
eudaimon - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#320568) #
Well, on the plus side I think this series shows how high our ceiling is as a team. Even though we're not hitting particularly well, and striking out a lot, we're still doing pretty well against a good team.
[ Reply to This ]
pubster - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#320569) #
Should have just went Storen/Osuna in the 8th and 9th I guess.
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#320570) #
so much for the upgraded bullpen.
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#320571) #
better not let carrera hit.
[ Reply to This ]
mathesond - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#320572) #
If only Sanchez was available to face Souza
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#320573) #
bah.
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#320574) #
funny thing leon was likely on his way down to buffalo to make room for estrada anyways.
[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#320575) #
Apparently Storen wasn't available after pitching Monday and getting warm Sunday and last night.
[ Reply to This ]
SK in NJ - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#320576) #
The pen is fine. Just use the good ones. Floyd is a SP who can easily pitch 2 innings without having to get pulled. He was pitching well. Bringing in Leon was mind boggling. I hope someone asks Gibbons what the heck he was thinking there.
[ Reply to This ]
Chuck - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#320577) #
I hope someone asks Gibbons what the heck he was thinking there.

Probably something about dresses.

[ Reply to This ]
fozzy - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#320578) #
@ John Northey

Should have asked, I'm from Atikokan and the Jays on MLB.TV worked fine here for at least a few years! If you can get a Roku stick the games stream great on any TV with an HDMI port. Best part? You can overlay the radio audio over the TV broadcast.

[ Reply to This ]
BlueJayWay - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#320579) #
Disappointing to take a lead into the 8th in four straight games and only come out 2-2.

[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#320580) #
To be fair, the way Souza was hitting today, he could have just as easily hit that HR against Floyd.

I'm not keen on the "told you so" narrative which always assume the positive outcome from the hypothetical alternative.

[ Reply to This ]
Gerry - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#320581) #
The Jays didn't really hit well in the series, they relied on a couple of big hits. In the series they were 6-34 with RISP and left 26 runners on.
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#320582) #
"....Never mind that Floyd was doing well (he was giving up singles)...."

Come on.  After just one out, he had allowed runners on 1st and 3rd.  How is that good?  In a one-run game, you shouldn't allow 2 of the inning's first 3 hitters to reach base.  That's going to lead to runs, almost regardless of who pitches next.
[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#320583) #
Glad that I missed the last 4 innings of that one. 

Leon had not pitched in 5 days and is waiver wire fodder and you bring him in then?  I thought that with Floyd, Cecil, Storen and Osuna around, the risk of late inning bullpen mismanagement was low.  Wrong.  Leave Floyd in or let Osuna throw more than an inning with the day off coming. 

It really should not be that hard when you have 4 games and then a day off and your starter is giving you an average of 6.5 innings. 

[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 04:29 PM EDT (#320584) #
"....In the series they were 6-34 with RISP and left 26 runners on....."

This is the key point, right here.  The Jays were running up the pitch count by the Rays starters, then failing to do much against the Rays bullpen.  It's not a particularly impressive bullpen (Eveland? Farquhar? Enny Romero?) but the Jays were doing little against these guys.  They averaged only 3.75 runs per game, and they wasted the very good performances from Sanchez and Happ.
[ Reply to This ]
SK in NJ - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#320585) #
Giving up 2 singles doesn't mean a reliever is doing badly, certainly not one who had 3 K's in 1.1 IP to that point. Even good relievers will give up singles. Hell, Cecil is a very good reliever and he looked 10 times worse last night. Regardless, if Storen, Cecil, and Chavez were not available, then he should have either kept Floyd in or brought in Osuna. Bringing in a guy who is a couple of days away from being waived into that spot, when it wasn't even related to a match-up issue, was not a smart decision. If Floyd gave up the HR, I would have been fine with that, just like I was fine with the outcome with Cecil last night (good relievers have bad games). Leon had no business in this game.
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#320586) #
"...Leon had no business in this game..."

That's pure opinion.  I have my own opinion.  With one out, Gibbons wanted a double-play ball. He needed a groundball.  He went to the pitcher who, based on match-ups, he felt had a better chance of extracting a groundball in that situation.  He had a rationale.  It didn't work.  Your argument isn't helped by pretending there wasn't a rationale.

If Floyd hadn't allowed 2 of the first 3 hitters to reach base, the home run wouldn't have even cost the game.  It's pointless to blame everything on one pitcher.


[ Reply to This ]
jerjapan - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#320587) #
Dunno China, I'm sure loads of people were scratching their heads when Leon came in - just like I was.  I was getting out of the car when his name was called, and by the time I sat down on the couch and turned on the TV, HR.  

I'd rather lose a game because of an umpire's decision than a manager's ....

(Apostrophes added because of a recent Dewey sighting.  And I mean that as a compliment to Dewey). 
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 04:52 PM EDT (#320588) #
"...I'd rather lose a game because of an umpire's decision than a manager's ...."

With one out and runners on 1st and 3rd, was Floyd going to escape without a run or two?  Unless we can see the parallel universe, it's difficult to know what would have happened, but I personally don't think Floyd was going to shut the door in that situation.  If he had stayed in and allowed another couple of runs, the critics would have been all over Gibby for leaving him in.
[ Reply to This ]
pubster - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#320589) #
China, we don't know what would have happened in a parallel universe.

However, we know what happened in our universe. Which is why people would prefer a different universe right about now.
[ Reply to This ]
BlueJayWay - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#320590) #
We also know that in our universe Arnold Leon is pretty terrible. Not sure the need for him there.
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 05:07 PM EDT (#320591) #
"...in our universe Arnold Leon is pretty terrible...."

He competed against a bunch of other pitchers and won the spring competition for a bullpen spot.  You can't have pitchers in your bullpen and be afraid to use them.  If he's on the team, he should be available to be used.  Storen, Chavez and Cecil weren't available.  Floyd had already thrown 24 pitches and allowed 2 of the 3 hitters to reach base in the inning.  Biagini is worse than Leon.  Morales was being saved for the LHB.  Osuna had pitched in 2 of the 3 previous games.  There wasn't an obvious alternative.

As others have noted, Cecil did just as badly as Leon a day earlier.  Bad stuff sometimes happens. 
[ Reply to This ]
ComebyDeanChance - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#320592) #
There was a point at the end of the top of the sixth, after Gibbons' pointless challenge of the obvious third out at first base, where they showed Kevin Cash on tv. He looked over at the Blue Jays' dugout very confidently after the challenge, like he knew he'd eat the chump's lunch by the end of the day.


[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#320593) #
"....Gibbons' pointless challenge of the obvious third out at first base...."

The replay showed that it was incredibly close.  From some angles, he looked safe.  It was far from "obvious" that he was out.
[ Reply to This ]
JB21 - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#320594) #
You can't have pitchers in your bullpen and be afraid to use them. If he's on the team, he should be available to be used.

You have to take leverage into consideration when discussing RP.

[ Reply to This ]
John Northey - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#320595) #
I was thinking 'what is Leon doing in this game in this situation'. Storen was acquired for this specific role. 8th inning, 1 run game. Why is he here if not for that? I could see trying to get an extra inning from Floyd but unless he is hurt already Storen should've been available. Osuna for the 9th obviously. Leon is an 8th guy in a pen, maybe #7. No way does he come in with runners on in a 1 run game unless the pen is totally drained.
[ Reply to This ]
Spifficus - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#320596) #
The obvious alternative was to leave Floyd in after striking out 3 of 6 batters, and only giving up two singles. This as opposed to bringing in the second-worst pitcher (or worst, depending on your thoughts on Biagini) into an ultra-high leverage situation. The less obvious alternative is to bring in Osuna for what was obviously a pivotal AB, and worry about the 9th when it gets there. Not gonna happen, sure, but it's fun to think about. In the end, keeping Floyd in for Sousa was the right move for me if they were really 3-deep in unavailable relievers.

I mean, if Floyd was gassed, then it's a different story, but if that's the case, then that helps solve the question of who's next into the rotation in case of injury.

It wasn't the only thing that lost the game, but it was definitely a peculiar move.
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 05:42 PM EDT (#320597) #
floyd is stretched out still. and rested. he couldn't have been gassed.
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 05:44 PM EDT (#320598) #
John, apparently even though storen only pitched once, he was still up and fully warmed all three previous games, and gibby didn't want him to warm up a 4th time.
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#320599) #
the early hook of dickey in game 2 probably caused the problem in the first place. should have let him pitch the 6th.
[ Reply to This ]
John Northey - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 06:27 PM EDT (#320600) #
uglyone that makes a lot more sense. Of course, that is an issue if Gibby keeps warming up guys without using them. His bullpen management was the best part of his managing his first time around but not well done so far this year, but it is just 4 games.
[ Reply to This ]
eudaimon - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#320601) #
I agree with Gibbons with all the hooks, just not the Leon. Not sure what he was thinking there. He might have gotten a little too cute. I'm not going to bother trying to look up Leon's advanced stats or anything, because he's likely not long for the team regardless.

As for the "pointless" challenge, they don't work every time, and the Jays figured it was worth a look. Whatever. Kevin Cash will someday issue a "pointless" challenge as well.

[ Reply to This ]
scottt - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 07:01 PM EDT (#320602) #
He competed against a bunch of other pitchers and won the spring competition for a bullpen spot.

Isn't he on the team because he's out of options?

Floyd was competing for a starting spot and could have thrown 80+ pitches.

You can't have pitchers in your bullpen and be afraid to use them. 

I don't recommend it, but yes you can.
I also don't recommend bringing in a new bullpen pitcher every time someone give one or two base runners.
Tampa was switching pitchers to match the hitters, unless you're doing that, you might as well let every one have a complete inning. Every pitchers gets into trouble. The good pitchers get out of them. Every pitchers give hits.

That was the highest leverage of the season and it went to the second last pitcher in the pen, assuming Biagini is the last.
[ Reply to This ]
ComebyDeanChance - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 07:06 PM EDT (#320603) #
In 2012, the O's went 74-0 in games they led after 7 innings. Last August, the Royals lost their second game when they'd led after 7 - second since May of the previous season. Meantime they went 111-0 in games they led after 7. The Yankees last year were 57-2 in games they led after 7.

I'd be interested to see how many teams have ever lost 2 games when they led after 7 innings in their opening series of the season. I suspect it's not that long a lists.

[ Reply to This ]
scottt - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 07:08 PM EDT (#320604) #
If one of their top reliever can only pitch in 1 game out of 4, there's a huge problem with Gibby's strategy.

Getting out of the Trop with a lead would have been great.
Now they have a day off to pout.
[ Reply to This ]
Four Seamer - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 07:17 PM EDT (#320605) #

Apologies are in order to uglyone - maybe they should have resigned David Price after all.  He would have looked good in the bullpen today. 

[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#320606) #
"Kevin Cash will someday issue a "pointless" challenge as well."

in fact he led baseball in them last year - by a country mile.
[ Reply to This ]
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 07:36 PM EDT (#320607) #
Too small a sample to comment fairly on anything. The Jays are 2-2 verses A.L.East. in a series of 17 straight A.L. East games. The Starting Rotation has been exceptional through four starts. The Offense is good, but not running on all cylinders. I think it's still a matter of timing for some. Except for early season jitters, the Defense has been very good. Trying to pitch everyone in the first four games must be done, but it can cause stress for fans. I' d rather thing about Josh Donaldson and what his injury means for the Jays than try to make mountains out of the many unimportant mole hills of items.
[ Reply to This ]
ComebyDeanChance - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 08:18 PM EDT (#320608) #
His bullpen management was the best part of his managing his first time

I think that's either internet/Wilner myth or damning by faint praise. His record in 'close' games has been consistently poor, including last year. There has only been one season ever where he had a .500 record in close games, and that was 2006, BJ Ryan's great year. That was also the only year in which his team has out-performed the Pythagorean, by one game. In his first go around the team under performed the PR by 18 games overall. Since he's been back, it's underperfomed the PR every year

[ Reply to This ]
SK in NJ - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 08:46 PM EDT (#320609) #
"That's pure opinion. I have my own opinion. With one out, Gibbons wanted a double-play ball. He needed a groundball. He went to the pitcher who, based on match-ups, he felt had a better chance of extracting a groundball in that situation. He had a rationale. It didn't work. Your argument isn't helped by pretending there wasn't a rationale."


There is a huge difference between Cecil blowing a lead and Leon blowing a lead. One of them (Cecil) is one of your best relievers; if he blows a game, you accept it and move on. When you bring in a guy who is a few days away from being waived with no MLB track record into that situation, I'm baffled as to how anyone can defend it. Hell, if your reasoning is wanting a DP, then why not bring in Biagini? He rarely gave up home runs in the minors and keeps the ball on the ground.

Realistically, outside of bringing Osuna into the game, Floyd was the best guy in that situation. If you think two singles given up by a guy who struck out 3 of the first 5 batters he faced and has a track record of being a good MLB pitcher is a cause for concern, then maybe the manager is being too cute. Trust your guys a bit more.

And no, if Floyd gave up that HR, no one would have complained. At least I wouldn't. I was waiting for Storen to come in, but if he wasn't available, and clearly Cecil/Chavez weren't, then Floyd was the best option they had for that inning. I would have had no issues with Floyd blowing that lead if it happened. Leon? Totally different story. Leverage exists.
[ Reply to This ]
Dewey - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 09:11 PM EDT (#320610) #
(Apostrophes added because of a recent Dewey sighting.  And I mean that as a compliment to Dewey).

Thanks for the ‘compliment’, jerjapan.  (I’m keeping my eye on you.)  There's been some backsliding on Da Box of late; so it’s good to see you making the effort.  Keep it up.  Improves the site.
[ Reply to This ]
ComebyDeanChance - Wednesday, April 06 2016 @ 10:10 PM EDT (#320611) #
I really hope the new infield looks good this weekend.
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 08:45 AM EDT (#320614) #
"....I would have had no issues with Floyd blowing that lead if it happened..."

Souza was crushing the ball against every pitcher yesterday, so Floyd could easily have blown the lead if he had stayed in.  And you personally might have had no issues with it, but I can guarantee that this thread would have been filled with people mocking the manager if Floyd had blown the lead because Gibbons had refused to get a fresh reliever after Floyd had thrown 24 pitches and allowed 2 of the inning's first 3 hitters to reach base.

I like having Floyd in the bullpen, but there's a reason why he's not a high-leverage reliever. 
[ Reply to This ]
Dave Till - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 08:56 AM EDT (#320615) #

My thinking is: it's early in the season. It's worth finding out which of the Jays' pitchers can be trusted in high-leverage situations. The Jays have bullpen options waiting in Buffalo, if the guys who are here can't handle anything other than mop-up work.

[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 10:07 AM EDT (#320616) #
I disagree with the usage of Leon on so many levels.  If you are remotely considering using him in an ultra-high leverage situation, you first give him an opportunity in a lesser situation.  So, when Stroman has a 5-1 lead after 8 innings in his first outing of the season and you are carrying 8 relievers and you have a day off after 4 games, it's a perfect opportunity to throw out Leon with Osuna in reserve.  If Leon pitches well in the 9th, then I could see using him in a higher leverage situation 3 days later (although it's not what I would do). 

I also disagree with the replay official's decision on the Bautista slide.  In order for the decision to be overturned on replay review, there had to be clear and convincing evidence that Bautista's actions were with a wilful or deliberate attempt to interfere with the fielder and that they did in fact interfere with the fielder.  From the video I saw, the evidence of Bautista's intent was pretty clear but the evidence of actual interference was not clear and convincing (i.e. that Bautista's efforts had any meaningful effect on the play).  Forsythe did not come up with Longoria's throw cleanly and this was what led to the awkward throw in my judgment rather than Bautista's efforts.  That was, I thought, the reason for the lack of call on the field. 

[ Reply to This ]
Gerry - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 10:33 AM EDT (#320617) #

Trying to be-rid of italics.

Mike, the New York office cited two reasons for the call on Bautista. One was the grab, the other was Bautista's failure to maintain contact with the base after his slide.

[ Reply to This ]
Gerry - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 10:34 AM EDT (#320618) #

That's weird. The preview showed I had gotten rid of the italics.

[ Reply to This ]
Admin - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#320619) #
Sorry Super Bluto, your post was deleted to save us from italics.
[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#320620) #
The failure to maintain contact with the bag after the slide was immaterial and a complete red herring.  Forsythe was out of the picture entirely.  The umpire had already called Bautista out. 

The worst part of the ruling was that it took them only 90 seconds to make it.  They spenf 5 minutes with  relatively less significant and obvious decisions and somehow think that they can make a difficult and crucial call in 90 seconds.  It was not at all obvious whether there had in fact been interference (separate and apart from intent).  It conveyed to me that the replay officials have an agenda to crack down and aren't really thinking about things seriously...

[ Reply to This ]
Lylemcr - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#320621) #
I am very encouraged by this week in Tampa. The starters looked really good and that was my biggest concern for the season.

The bullpen was a little rough, but there are a lot of moving pieces available and it will be figured out as the season moves along.

The Jays could easily be 4-0, and 0-4. :) It is good to have baseball back
[ Reply to This ]
pubster - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 11:17 AM EDT (#320622) #
The Jays could not easily be 0-4. Stop lying :)
[ Reply to This ]
85bluejay - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 11:22 AM EDT (#320623) #
Very impressed with the Rays rotation - this division is going to be a real dogfight.

Completely agree that the Leon decision was a head-scratcher - game 1 with a 5-1 lead was a much better opportunity to test drive Leon than with a 1 run lead.
[ Reply to This ]
electric carrot - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#320624) #
Completely agree that the Leon decision was a head-scratcher

Well I get why you say this but for me the bigger head scratcher was why they didn't just walk their man intentionally after Leon fell behind 3-0 on three pitches. May as well load the bases and have a force-out at every base, put on their hot hitter and save you from pitching way behind in the count. That was the bigger mistake in my view.

[ Reply to This ]
Dave Till - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 12:05 PM EDT (#320626) #

I disagree with the usage of Leon on so many levels. If you are remotely considering using him in an ultra-high leverage situation, you first give him an opportunity in a lesser situation. So, when Stroman has a 5-1 lead after 8 innings in his first outing of the season and you are carrying 8 relievers and you have a day off after 4 games, it's a perfect opportunity to throw out Leon with Osuna in reserve.

I think the problem is that the Jays' starters have been unexpectedly good. They were probably expecting at least one of Dickey, Sanchez, or Happ to get gonged and need to be pulled in the 4th inning or something like that, thus providing plenty of low-leverage innings for the 38 guys they have on reserve in the bullpen.

However, there has been exactly one (1) low-leverage inning so far this season - the start of the 9th inning in Stroman's start (as you mention here). However, I think you have to give Stroman a chance for the complete game - he hadn't thrown a lot of pitches, and he had been cutting through the Rays' order like a knife through butter. Can you imagine the second-guessing we would be doing if Gibbons had pulled Stroman in the 9th and somebody like Leon had come in and put runners on base with the entire bullpen rested and ready to go? I suspect he wouldn't be allowed back into Canada!

I can see the point of using your best guys in key situations, but I think that the Jays are going to need more than three relievers who can handle high-leverage situations if they're going to win the division. Gibbons might as well find out who those guys are going to be.

[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#320627) #
Runners on 1st and 3rd, ahead by a run, one out and a RHB up to face Leon.  If you walk Sousa, you get bases-loaded for Beckham (Cash probably won't pitch-hit Miller because Morales is waiting).  I can understand why you wouldn't want that.  Sousa might have been hot, but the odds with the bases loaded would be much more in Beckham's favour.  It brings me back to the old Tom Niedenfuer/Jack Clark/Andy Van Slyke in the 1985 playoffs.
[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#320628) #
However, I think you have to give Stroman a chance for the complete game - he hadn't thrown a lot of pitches, and he had been cutting through the Rays' order like a knife through butter. Can you imagine the second-guessing we would be doing if Gibbons had pulled Stroman in the 9th and somebody like Leon had come in and put runners on base with the entire bullpen rested and ready to go? I suspect he wouldn't be allowed back into Canada!

Not from me.  I have many times indicated my disagreement with the "lock-down a large lead" philosophy.  If Leon puts a couple of runners on with a 5-1 lead, Osuna comes on.  Big deal.  I do not understand why anyone would think that first and third, one out, ahead by a run in the eighth is a better situation for a first appearance by a reliever on the cusp of being sent down than ahead by 4 with nobody on and out in the ninth. 

Complete games are an anomaly now.  That's why the Jays are carrying 8 relievers.  It's also why Sanchez was pulled after 7 innings despite pitching very well and having some gas left in the tank.  Of all the times that one should not be pushing for a complete game, opening day with a day off after game 4 and an 8 men in the pen is #1.  Stroman had not thrown more that many innings in spring training and building him up, particularly after last year's injury, is a good thing. 
[ Reply to This ]
92-93 - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 12:36 PM EDT (#320629) #
"There was a point at the end of the top of the sixth, after Gibbons' pointless challenge of the obvious third out at first base, where they showed Kevin Cash on tv. He looked over at the Blue Jays' dugout very confidently after the challenge, like he knew he'd eat the chump's lunch by the end of the day."

Ridiculous post. Managers have until the end of the 6th to use or lose their challenge, and it was a close play.

Fangraphs wrote a piece last year on Kevin Cash's challenges after he started off 0/9. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/kevin-cash-is-good-and-bad-at-challenges/
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 01:33 PM EDT (#320633) #
what really bugs me is that I never quite understood why Leon is even here.

Biagini's upside play I get, but Leon was a bad AAA reliever, a bad reliever in oakland's pitching paradise, and has uninteresting stuff to boot.
[ Reply to This ]
Gerry - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#320634) #
AJ Jimenez has cleared waivers and is off to Buffalo.

Buffalo's season opening game, set for tonight, has been postponed.
[ Reply to This ]
electric carrot - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 02:28 PM EDT (#320635) #
Runners on 1st and 3rd, ahead by a run, one out and a RHB up to face Leon.  If you walk Sousa, you get bases-loaded for Beckham (Cash probably won't pitch-hit Miller because Morales is waiting).

Sure I get it -- it's not ideal. But there's a very real chance you walk Sousa anyway -- and the odds of him getting a pitch to hit are so much higher once it's 3-0 in a count for any batter.  So at this instant the smart thing to do is to give yourself a better chance of registering an out (or two) by walking him and starting fresh with whoever is next. The worst outcome is that Sousa scores an insurance run. That's a risk worth taking given the other potential outcomes.
[ Reply to This ]
ComebyDeanChance - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#320636) #
Ridiculous post.

That's a good introduction to your post. It helps that you use subtitles to alert readers to what follows.
[ Reply to This ]
ComebyDeanChance - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#320637) #
Managers have until the end of the 6th to use or lose their challenge, and it was a close play.

Is this a new rule? From the 7th inning on the manager can request, as opposed to insist, that the crew chief review a play but that is far different from some "use it or lose" rule that you think exists.

Is this the rule you think you are referring to:
Crew Chief Reviews.
At any time during a game, a Crew Chief may, in his sole discretion, initiate a Replay Review of a potential home run call (as defined in Section V.A below). With respect to other reviewable calls, beginning in the seventh inning (unless permitted earlier in accordance with Section VI.C.2(b) below), a Crew Chief may, in his sole discretion, conduct Replay Review upon his own initiative or upon the request of a Manager who has no remaining Manager Challenges. These Replay Reviews are subject to the following:
A Club that has exhausted its Manager Challenges may request but cannot insist that the Crew Chief invoke his right to initiate Replay Review. Except in the case of potential home run calls, the Crew Chief shall not initiate Replay Review of any play or call if the requesting Manager has a Manager Challenge remaining.

 To help you understand, this rule allows a manager who has exhausted his challenges to request a review of certain things from the seventh inning on, which is then up to the Crew Chief's discretion. The reason that it stipulates that a manager must have exhausted his challenge, is that if the manager still has his challenge he must use it rather than request the Crew Chief to exercise his discretion. It should be obvious that the only way a manager can exercise his own challenge is because there is no rule that a manager 'loses' his challenge after the sixth inning.

As a rule, it is usually better before you call someone else's post "ridiculous", to make sure you have the faintest idea what you're talking about.
[ Reply to This ]
92-93 - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 03:29 PM EDT (#320638) #
If there's a close play in the 6th and the manager doesn't challenge it, he's making a mistake, because any subsequent play that is reasonably close will be reviewed by the umps anyway on the manager's request.

[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 03:38 PM EDT (#320639) #
The worst outcome is that Sousa scores an insurance run

No.  You have also advanced Jennings, the go-ahead run, to second base.  A two out single now scores the go-ahead run instead of moving him to second or third.  I'd be curious about the results of a poll, 3-0 on Souza in that situation, perhaps with two variants, one with Leon pitching and one with Floyd pitching. 
[ Reply to This ]
John Northey - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#320640) #
I suspect some close calls are reviewed because the manager wants to ensure the players feel he has their back, even if he thinks he'll lose the challenge. Knowing the umpires want to get calls right he'll feel safe 'wasting' the challenge if he feels there is any chance at all of winning it. Later on if an umpire doesn't accept the request for a challenge and later on you find out the call would've been changed had there been a challenge odds are the umpire will face discipline from the league office as they want games decided based on what happened (thus the replay).

Boy, I hate to imagine what it would've been like if Billy Martin or Earl Weaver had access to replay back in the 70's/80's. They'd have found every loophole to exploit and drove umps nuts after the 7th.
[ Reply to This ]
92-93 - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#320641) #
As China fan pointed out, no matter what Gibbons did there he was going to be criticized based on a likely negative result of the game being tied. Heck, we have a poster in here essentially blaming John Gibbons for the loss in game 3, when Brett Cecil, who had 38 consecutive scoreless appearances, shat the bed.

Personally I thought Floyd looked good vs. Jennings and would've left him in, but I also had little problem with the idea that Leon/Biagini might be a better option there.
[ Reply to This ]
ComebyDeanChance - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#320642) #
If there's a close play in the 6th and the manager doesn't challenge it, he's making a mistake, because any subsequent play that is reasonably close will be reviewed by the umps anyway on the manager's request.

This too is wrong, although I take it you've correctly abandoned the "use it or lose it" claim.

The words "sole discretion", which discretion is conferred on the Crew Chief, are carefully chosen. A Crew Chief is entitled to take into account in exercising his (or her someday) sole discretion, whatever the Crew Chief considers relevant, including presumably whether some bozo is out of challenges because he blew his challenge on a play that no one else in the park thought was close. The words "sole discretion" are used to exempt the Crew Chief's exercise of that discretion from any scope of review. If the rule intended that the Crew Chief would review "any subsequent play that is reasonably close" as long as a manager who is out of challenges asks, it would say that or something similar, and it says something far different. Indeed there are probably 100 plays in a game that are "reasonably close" but would not cause a Crew Chief to exercise his discretion to initiate a review, either on his own motion or at the request of a manager who is out of challenges.

A manager who wastes his challenge in the sixth inning on the belief that the Crew Chief will review what the manager wants thereafter, is acting upon a misunderstanding of the rule.

If it helps, I was not trying to link Gibbons' unsuccessful challenge, to Cashes successful one of the night before (which he used by the way in the ninth inning), or to suggest that Cash is a genius at challenges. It was to place in time the look that Cash gave of being without 'lack of confidence in the match' to put it politely.
[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#320643) #
CBDC, are you sure that is what Cash meant by the look? 

Cash sometimes has a slightly bemused look on his face, and I am guessing that he might know more about the whole Gibbons/Shapiro thing than other managers.  Cash caught for the Jays in 2004 when Gibbons arrived, so would know him quite a bit, and was a scout for the Indians under Shapiro. I cannot imagine that Shapiro would be happy about Gibbons "dress" comment, and the culture difference between the two might very well be known to Cash. 

[ Reply to This ]
ComebyDeanChance - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#320644) #
CBDC, are you sure that is what Cash meant by the look?

Of course I'm not! :)

If I testified to being sure what Cash meant by a look you'd point out immediately that I have no ability to see inside someone else's mind.
[ Reply to This ]
pubster - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#320645) #
I'm a big fan of CBDC.

Good job.
[ Reply to This ]
electric carrot - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#320648) #
You have also advanced Jennings, the go-ahead run, to second base.

Right. This does play with the winning this game odds a little. I'm still for the walk though in that situation. I've just observed the stats for the 3-0 count and I am convinced you don't want a hitter to have that kind of advantage over you in a crucial situation like that.  Also, bases loaded does create a force-out at home.
[ Reply to This ]
scottt - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 06:38 PM EDT (#320651) #
Personally I thought Floyd looked good vs. Jennings and would've left him in, but I also had little problem with the idea that Leon/Biagini might be a better option there.

I like having them here as depth, but Leon and Biagini are always the worse options, short of putting a position player on the mound.

There was nothing wrong with Cecil, but there is probably something wrong with too many relievers being warmed up and not used. If warming up a top reliever makes him unavailable the next day, then you don't warm him up until you're decided he's getting in the game.
[ Reply to This ]
scottt - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 06:49 PM EDT (#320652) #
My thinking is: it's early in the season. It's worth finding out which of the Jays' pitchers can be trusted in high-leverage situations. The Jays have bullpen options waiting in Buffalo, if the guys who are here can't handle anything other than mop-up work.

I  don't know about that. Osuana, Storen, Cecil and Chavez are not going to Buffalo.
Neither is Morales and Floyd, who have major leagues contracts.

Biagini can't be sent down. Leon is going down anyway once Estrada comes up.
[ Reply to This ]
JB21 - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 06:54 PM EDT (#320653) #
No Price for this weekend's series. I'll take it.
[ Reply to This ]
92-93 - Thursday, April 07 2016 @ 08:15 PM EDT (#320654) #
"A Crew Chief is entitled to take into account in exercising his (or her someday) sole discretion, whatever the Crew Chief considers relevant, including presumably whether some bozo is out of challenges because he blew his challenge on a play that no one else in the park thought was close."

No one else except Tim Leiper, who motioned to Gibby to review the play, and the Blue Jays video room, who had DeMarlo Hale relay the message to Gibby to challenge the play. What a bozo Gibby is for doing so.

[ Reply to This ]
Dave Till - Friday, April 08 2016 @ 09:55 AM EDT (#320659) #
I just had a thought about the whole Leon situation. The Jays have to make a roster move before Sunday if they plan on starting Estrada in that game. This probably means moving a pitcher.

However, many of the pitchers at the back end of the bullpen can't be moved off the roster without either being put on waivers or offered back via Rule V. So the Jays need to find out whether these guys can actually pitch before sending them out.

Ideally, you would want to do this in a low leverage situation. But all of the games have been close, so there haven't been any of those.

This might be why Gibbons put Leon into the game on Wednesday: the team might want to see him and the other guys on the bubble get into at least one game before Sunday. Or perhaps he might just have been wrong.

In the immortal words of Rocky Bridges, "There are three things the average man thinks he can do better than anybody else - build a fire, run a hotel and manage a baseball team."
[ Reply to This ]
uglyone - Friday, April 08 2016 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#320664) #
on the flipside, this is exactly why I always crusade against having these types of inflexible contracts at the bottom of the roster. they force you to play undeserving players. it's a downside to "depth" that is rarely accounted for.
[ Reply to This ]
John Northey - Friday, April 08 2016 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#320666) #
Leon is a ML minimum wager gotten off waivers. He is by definition 'replacement level' - freely gotten and easy to cut. Rule 5 picks are always lottery tickets, sometimes you get lucky and get a star (George Bell, Roberto Clemente, CC Sabathia), sometimes you get a decent player (Manny Lee), sometimes you get 'blah' (Lou Thornton, Jose Nunez, many others).
[ Reply to This ]
John Northey - Friday, April 08 2016 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#320667) #
oops, wrong guy, I should've said Johan Santana not Sabathia.
[ Reply to This ]
Four Seamer - Friday, April 08 2016 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#320669) #

Rule 5 picks are always lottery tickets, sometimes you get lucky and get a star (George Bell, Roberto Clemente), sometimes you get a decent player (Manny Lee), sometimes you get 'blah' (Lou Thornton, Jose Nunez, many others).

Where does the great Aquilino Lopez fit on this scale?

[ Reply to This ]
snider - Friday, April 08 2016 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#320670) #
Or Willie Canate
[ Reply to This ]
China fan - Friday, April 08 2016 @ 03:38 PM EDT (#320676) #
Donaldson is back in the lineup tonight, but at DH.   So this means Encarnacion at 1B and Barney at 3B, which leaves Smoak and Colabello both out of the lineup. 

But the full bullpen is available tonight!  Although with Stroman pitching, they might not be needed very much.

[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Friday, April 08 2016 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#320677) #
Personally, I'd prefer if they just gave Donaldson the day off when he's not 100%.  Encarnacion has had that oblique problem, and every time you put him out there at first base, you are adding to risk of injury.  Donaldson is a good bet to give you 150 games plus anyways. 

[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Friday, April 08 2016 @ 08:57 PM EDT (#320681) #
Ahem. Slinking time.
[ Reply to This ]
scottt - Friday, April 08 2016 @ 09:20 PM EDT (#320682) #
Sometimes it feels good to be wrong.
[ Reply to This ]
Blue Jays @ Rays - April 3-6 | 289 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.