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Welcome to 2016, Bauxites! Not a whole heck of a lot is going on but there are some rumours for you to munch on.


Fernando Rodney pitches against Toronto at Safeco Field last July 25. The 38 year-old Dominican split last season with Seattle and the Chicago Cubs.


Nick Cafardo of The Boston Globe says the Blue Jays have asked about Yankees closer Andrew Miller and Cubs reliever Fernando Rodney. Meantime, Jon Heyman of CBS says the Jays also have interest in Texas starter Yovani Gallardo.

Other links for your consideration...

Marcus Stroman is now in a rap video, Richard Griffin from The Toronto Star has an A to Z look around the majors and The Palm Beach Post looks at the failed effort to lure the Jays to Palm Beach from their spring training home in Dunedin.
Fernando Rodney Experience Coming To Toronto? Maybe Yovani Gallardo? | 114 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Four Seamer - Monday, January 04 2016 @ 05:45 PM EST (#317585) #
That Heyman link appears to be to a trade deadline story.  Is there fresh interest in Gallardo as a free agent acquisition?
johnny was - Monday, January 04 2016 @ 05:46 PM EST (#317586) #
Fernando Rodney, quite good from 2012-14, got his mojo back in late July after the Jays told the Mariners that he'd been tipping pitches.  Interesting idea.

I'd feel a lot more comfortable with Doug Fister than Jesse Chavez in my rotation.  The former seems likely to sign a 1 or 2 year deal soon.

#2JBrumfield - Monday, January 04 2016 @ 06:38 PM EST (#317587) #
That Heyman link appears to be to a trade deadline story.  Is there fresh interest in Gallardo as a free agent acquisition?

Yes, that link has been corrected. Thanks!

A story I came across not too long ago and I don't believe was mentioned here was a Norfolk News article on Jerry Howarth. A good read if you can spare a few minutes.
Parker - Monday, January 04 2016 @ 07:52 PM EST (#317588) #
Oh God, please not Rodney. I'd prefer the Jays sign Barry Bonds to pitch out of the bullpen.
jerjapan - Monday, January 04 2016 @ 08:54 PM EST (#317589) #
Why the hostility for Rodney Parker?  He's old, but he was very good for 3 years prior to last season, and still sits around 95 with the FB.  If he's cheap, bring him on. 
scottt - Monday, January 04 2016 @ 09:18 PM EST (#317590) #
Rodney is a better idea than trading Stroman for Andrew Miller.
Vulg - Monday, January 04 2016 @ 10:19 PM EST (#317591) #
Why the hostility for Rodney Parker?

Aside from being 39 by opening day, he's fat and trending downward in performance. His velocity may still be up, but so is his WHIP over the past few years. With his sinking K-rate, he's just looked very hittable.

Then again, those things will make him cheap and the kind of player that fits the MO of the front office (i.e. low risk!).
Thomas - Monday, January 04 2016 @ 10:49 PM EST (#317592) #
Jay Bruce has a no-trade list that does not include the Blue Jays.

The simple fact that a no trade list without the Jays exists may be cause for celebration.
Richard S.S. - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 03:45 AM EST (#317593) #
Russell Martin can make any pitcher better. R.A. Dickey's second half was Cy Young territory with Martin catching and he's two years older than Rodney.
Jevant - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 08:13 AM EST (#317594) #
Cafardo isn't worth listening to if he's throwing things like "Stroman for Miller" out there in any fashion.
vw_fan17 - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 10:03 AM EST (#317595) #
Cafardo isn't worth listening to if he's throwing things like "Stroman for Miller" out there in any fashion.

Well, if it's "the Yankees asked for Stroman and were told to go stuff themselves", then what's the problem? Teams ask for insane returns all the time, just in case.

Totally out of left field question for everyone: Donaldson for Miller, Betances and Chapman (all 3) - do you make that trade?
Spifficus - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 10:29 AM EST (#317596) #
I'd leave that question in the left field it came from. Even assuming years of control and costs were all the same, I wouldn't put my faith in 3 elite relievers over an elite 2-way position player. Bad things tend to happen to pitchers, and more commonly to relievers. Well, also, he was significantly more valuable last year than the three combined, and projects to be this year as well.
christaylor - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 11:16 AM EST (#317597) #
Leave the question out in LF and see if Colabello can field it. Hey-o!
mathesond - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 11:18 AM EST (#317598) #
Maybe if Severino was swapped in for one of the relievers...
Vulg - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 11:38 AM EST (#317599) #
Russell Martin can make any pitcher better. R.A. Dickey's second half was Cy Young territory with Martin catching and he's two years older than Rodney.

Russell Martin didn't even catch Dickey for the vast majority of the season, that honor goes went to the perennial 25-man roster tax otherwise known as Josh Thole.

Even if he did, you can't really compare a knuckleball pitcher vs. a person who has relied on 97mph fastball to set up his other pitches.

You're right about Dickey being 2 years older though!
Jevant - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 12:24 PM EST (#317600) #
Sure, although I basically assumed that was a Cafardo creation as is his practice.  I can't imagine the Yankees actually called up the Jays and said "Hey, want Andrew Miller for Marcus Stroman"? 
christaylor - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 12:25 PM EST (#317601) #
If Rodney is a lottery ticket for putting Sanchez in the rotation, why not?

The Miller rumor is just a head scratcher, even if the Jays are just kicking the tires. Why would Shapkins want that used car?
Gerry - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 12:37 PM EST (#317602) #
Two front office stories today. AA is reportedly joining the Dodgers front office in some capacity. And Paul DePodesta is moving from baseball to football to take on an executive job with the Cleveland Browns.
Vulg - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 02:01 PM EST (#317603) #
Two front office stories today. AA is reportedly joining the Dodgers front office in some capacity. And Paul DePodesta is moving from baseball to football to take on an executive job with the Cleveland Browns.

It somehow escaped me that Farhan Zaidi was born in Canada. Reading up on him a bit ... I'm impressed. They're going to have a formidable front office. Their Canadiana has given me a new team to cheer for other than the Jays. I'm thankful they're not in the AL.

Apparently Shapiro was offered the Cleveland Browns front office position before coming to Toronto. I wonder how he'll feel about that decision a couple of years from now. The absolute meritocracy of the NFL (a hard salary cap, fiscal equality for all) is such a stark contrast to the 'wild west' affluence of the AL East and MLB's liberal player movement rules.
rpriske - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 02:28 PM EST (#317604) #
Rodney? Gallardo? Miller?

I predict... Arnold Leon!
jgadfly - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 02:41 PM EST (#317605) #
"I predict... Arnold Leon!"
Nice... you missed scooping Shi Davidi by 11 minutes.
Chuck - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 03:04 PM EST (#317606) #
The absolute meritocracy of the NFL (a hard salary cap, fiscal equality for all) is such a stark contrast to the 'wild west' affluence of the AL East and MLB's liberal player movement rules.

Wonderfully ironic that America's favourite sport is innately socialist. Damn the liberal player movement of MLB's capitalism. Well, capitalism with an asterisk. Let's just ignore the antitrust exemption.

As for Fernando Rodney, ugh. I don't care for his on-field antics and would find it near impossible to root for him. Maybe that's just my age showing.

#2JBrumfield - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 04:08 PM EST (#317607) #
Here's the downlow on Arnold "Kings of" Leon per Sportsnet.
jerjapan - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 04:30 PM EST (#317608) #
I know the FO is in 'minor league depth' mode, but I'm not that impressed by the minor league depth they are bringing in.  If I squinted hard last offseason, I could see value in Colabello, Zeke and Bo Schultz (although I also saw potential value in Colt Hynes and Andrew Albers).   They tended to have unique back-stories that might explain why they had been overlooked by other orgs (Cola and Schultz in indie ball, Albers overseas) or specific skills - Schultz had the big arm, Zeke could run, Hynes was tough on lefties - that might equip them to fill in on the big league roster for a few weeks, or win a bench role. 

Junior Lake might be an exception this year, he's got pedigree, but he's out of options.  Brad Penny still has the big arm but he's been terrible for years now - in the bigs and in the minors.  Roberto Hernandez has to make the team (and secure his bonus) or he's gone.  Guys like Wade Leblanc, Leon and Pat McCoy don't fit last year's profile - they've never been good players past A ball, and don't have any standout skills to my eye.  It seems like we are punting the chance to get another Cola or Schultz at a time when our depth is depleted. 

Am I missing someone, or is this depth pretty uninspiring, even for AAAA guys?



pubster - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 04:34 PM EST (#317609) #
I like that they got Frenchy.

Makes me feel good.
uglyone - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 04:37 PM EST (#317610) #
agreee jer, these are uninspiring depth pickups so far.
uglyone - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 05:17 PM EST (#317611) #
Lake is interesting at least.
vw_fan17 - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 05:29 PM EST (#317612) #
So... We couldn't get Aroldis, but at least we got Arnold "I'll be back... in AAA soon enough" Leon?
jerjapan - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 05:30 PM EST (#317613) #
Agreed, but I see Lake as insurance more than depth - it's possible he makes the team if one or both of Saunders and Pompey struggle / Revere is dealt.  The most likely scenario to my mind is Revere stays in LF, Saunders if the 4th Of and both Pompey and Lake are demoted, with Lake getting lost on waivers, unless he struggles in spring. 

Options are so huge, I'd like to see us getting AAAA guys like Schultz who can safely ride the Buffalo shuttle. 

ogator - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 05:45 PM EST (#317614) #
I have decided the Blue Jays are no longer a good fit for me. I may become a Dodgers fan.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 06:27 PM EST (#317615) #
Jeff Francis, Greg Infante, Greg Burke, Zeke Carrera, WIlton Lopez, Jake Fox, Caleb Gindl, Daric Barton, Andrew Albers, Andy Dirks, Muni Kawasaki, Ramon Santiago, Tiago da Silva, Luis Perez, Chris Dickerson, Johan Santana, Dayan Viciedo, Randy Wolf, Cory Burns, Justin Smoak, Chris Colabello, Juan Orames, Scott Barnes, Preston Guilmet, and Matt West.

Those were players picked up by AA (either minor league deal or on waivers) last off-season. Amazingly, even the greatest GM to ever live also needed to fill the minor leagues with players. Shocking.

Some of these guys will surprise, most will be in the minors all season, or lost on waivers. This is nothing new.
uglyone - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 06:35 PM EST (#317616) #
that groups looks a heckuva lot more interesting than this year's crew so far. tons of guys with mlb success, milb greatness, or loud tools to pique the interest then.
cybercavalier - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 07:28 PM EST (#317617) #
Those were players picked up by AA (either minor league deal or on waivers) last off-season. Amazingly, even the greatest GM to ever live also needed to fill the minor leagues with players. Shocking.
Some of these guys will surprise, most will be in the minors all season, or lost on waivers. This is nothing new.


The following list is non-exhaustive but show player transactions in the minor leagues are very common.
Re-signed: Scott Copeland, Bobby Korecky, Chris Smith, Luis Hurtado, Murphy Smith, Melky Mesa
Not a 2015 Jays
: Bobby Doran, Gabe Noyalis, Brad Penny, Brandon Bixler, Wade LeBlanc, Pat McCoy, Humberto Quintero, David Adams, Jio Mier, Scott Diamond, Casey Kotchman, Arnold Leon
Released: Brandon Hinkle, Tiago Da Silva, John Kravetz, Arik Sikula, Joe Claver, Michael Kraft, Griffin Murphy, Bobby Wheatley, Kevin Garcia, Dean Bell, Christian Vazquez, Boomer Collins, Sean Hurley
Elected free agency: Jonathan Diaz, Donn Roach (and more)
Lost to another teams: Todd Redmond, Matt Hague (and more)
(sources: jaysjournal, baseball america)

If Canadians Francis, Albers, Aumount, Kottaras were signed in 2015 for Triple-A, does the signing of Diamond continue the trend of bringing in Canadian to the higher level of minor leagues ? Another perspective of this greater influx of Canadian baseball talents to higher level of minor leagues or the MLB shows the level of play has been improving from an already good level. Francis, Diamond were former MLB players and they signed minor contracts for 2015 or 2016.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 09:30 PM EST (#317618) #
"that groups looks a heckuva lot more interesting than this year's crew so far. tons of guys with mlb success, milb greatness, or loud tools to pique the interest then."


Other than Smoak (who was a MLB'er, just not a very good one to that point), it was basically the same type of moves. Vets to keep AAA warm, waiver pick-ups they might end up using at some point, some unknowns who they'll give a shot to, etc. It's the same stuff every year. Just because Colabello panned out (with some help from the BABIP Heavens) doesn't mean it looked any different at the time than any of the moves done so far this off-season. The only difference, and it was favorable to AA, is that a lot of the guys he picked up had options left (Colabello, Guilmet, West, Schultz), while the Jays are going to have to decide what to do with Lake, Biagini, Leon, etc. Strictly from a talent standpoint, there's virtually no difference. None of these guys are expected to contribute to the MLB team. They'll be given a chance to, and maybe one or two will surprise and pan out, but otherwise it's designed to put bodies in the minors.

Look at AA's 2014 off-season. It was Navarro, Lincoln for Kratz, and then nothing but minor league deals and waiver pick-ups. When you have no money to spend, this is what happens, regardless of who the GM is. I'm not sure why it's such a big deal now as opposed to previous years, other than the fact that we're all bored and hungry for Jays news.
Glevin - Tuesday, January 05 2016 @ 11:26 PM EST (#317619) #
Also, one of the big differences between last year's pickups and this year's is team needs. If the Jays needed a 1B/DH type again, I am sure they would be able to pick up some interesting names. You could have picked up Chris Carter or Pedro Alvarez or Kyle Blanks or Daniel Nava, etc...There are even minor league free agents who are interesting at 1B/DH. This year, the Jays had an overwhelming need for starting pitchers and no need for a 1B and you simply are not going to find the same kind of value with starters. Any starter who is remotely interesting will get a big deal. This is a world where Mike Pelfrey gets $8M a year and he's a bad pitcher. This makes sense. Teams need maybe 2 1B/DH types during the year. They need about 8-10 pitchers who can start.

Also, all those guys AA picked up last year had a combined WAR of a little more than 1 so it's hardly as if they made the Jays' season.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 01:20 AM EST (#317620) #
So they have Brady Dragmire (22), who's got a chance, he's got the stuff, but still a year or two away. They have two, Gabe Noyalis and Brandon Bixler (both 23) who may never get here or might take three or four or five or more years. They have Chad Girodo (24) who's one pitch away from being very effective here. They have a slow developing Joe Biagini (25) who they are hoping might stick because they think he has the stuff.

They have 14 others, 26-30 years old with a few of those over 30 years old who could be very useful. Almost everyone in this group has MLB experience and some of the skill to be there (Bo Schultz anyone?). All they want is to be better with the #4 - 7 spots in the Bullpen, and have better options for depth.
ComebyDeanChance - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 09:58 AM EST (#317621) #
I have decided the Blue Jays are no longer a good fit for me. I may become a Dodgers fan.

Good to hear. Wish you well.

Most fans though have far deeper loyalty than either our ex-poster, and far deeper loyalty than St. Alex Anthopoulos. Anthopoulos just couldn't accept a position with the Toronto Blue Jays that on the 'autonomy scale' would have been a number of rungs higher than the one he is apparently heading for in Lotusland. St. Alex wouldn't be dictated to by any new baseball president on player moves in Toronto, but in Los Angeles CA where the Dodgers use exactly the same model as the new front office, he'll gladly do as he's told by a Los Angeles Dodger baseball president Andrew Friedman and GM Farhan Zaidl. While St. Alex could only be a 'one-man show' in Toronto Canada, both concert master and conductor, he's a happy third-desk viola in Los Angeles, California. Pity St. Alex, unlike say, Tony LaCava had more loyalty to his own ego than to the franchise whose fans, or at least some of them, still loyally bathe his feet.

But at the end of the day, all's good. A Canadian boy was able to sell the farm, get some playoff games, and make himself Executive of the Year, and win a ticket to California - where he'll join many other Canadians who have similarly 'made it'. So good for you St. Alex. No doubt the family that only a short time ago was glued to Toronto will enjoy California. And hopefully you, and your also departing fans, won't be struck by the door on your way out.
Parker - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 10:37 AM EST (#317622) #
Well said, ComebyDeanChance, and I agree completely, as my own loyalty is to the team rather to a front-office middle manager.
Vulg - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 11:15 AM EST (#317623) #
Don't mind the butthurt, Ogator, I thought it was funny and well played.

If Rodney is a lottery ticket for putting Sanchez in the rotation, why not?

Opportunity cost. Presumably, the team that was 'close finalists' on a $2.5M reliever (with a $.5M buyout) doesn't have very many bullets to fire, so I'd prefer them to aim for players who have a better chance to suck less next season.

Besides, do you really want to see this at the Skydome?

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/10/chicago-cubs-fernando-rodney-bow-and-arrow-7th-inning-huh-mlb
uglyone - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 11:22 AM EST (#317624) #
lots of interesting guys last year iirc.

relatively young guys with some real mlb success on their resume like smoak, barton, viciedo, dirks, carrera, doubront.

guys with some excellent aaa numbers like cola, hendriks, hynes, rasmussen.

and then some loud tools guys like west and schultz.

that was on top of the vet reclamation like francis santiago dickerson etc.

this year so far it's been mainly the reclamation vets and guys with uninteresting milb numbers, but there's still time to change that. there'll be guys who are holding out for contracts who will be left holding the bag come spring training.
jerjapan - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 11:44 AM EST (#317625) #
Other than Smoak (who was a MLB'er, just not a very good one to that point), it was basically the same type of moves.

The purpose may be similar, but the approach seems different -  AA tended to favour guys with a potentially higher ceiling (for AAAA talent) that Shapiro seems to be targeting.  Ugly mentioned "milb greatness, or loud tools to pique the interest".  At the very least, a lot of the arms AA brought in could throw hard, or had been dominant at some level- a key difference between Schultz et al, and Leon, Diamond, McCoy etc. 

AA had something of a track record with these sorts of pickups - 2.2 WAR last year including Hendricks who was picked up the offseason before (and not counting smoak as he was a major leaguer).  In previous years, guys like Danny Valencia, Tolleson, Neil Wagner and Todd Redmond all had their moments. 

It's minor stuff for sure, but it could mean a win or two difference over the season. I always admired how creative AA was - for better or worse, we aren't seeing that as much thus far from Shapiro's regime.
ComebyDeanChance - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 11:49 AM EST (#317626) #
Roy Halladay is speaking out on the two main cheat and lie guys getting into the Hall. Good for Roy!

On a similar note, barely a peep from baseball reporters about the absolutely terrific bit of investigative journalism done by Al Jazeera on PEDs in sports. It's notable that it was Al Jazeera, rather than baseball reporters who rely on access and so don't bother anyone, to do the kind of real investigative journalism that shows how the sleazy PED industry works. Best bit of journalism on the topic since Game of Shadows.
jerjapan - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 01:16 PM EST (#317627) #
Gordon is back with KC for four years and 72 million - looks like a tremendous value deal for the Royals.  And pittsburgh signed Neftali Feliz for 3.9 million - similar to the A's signing Alvarez I guess, but it seems like a lot of money for the potential upside.  What's the better value, Feliz for 3.9$ (+ incentives) or Rodney for, say, 2.5$?

Hard to bet against Ray Searage in Pittsburgh though ... I certainly hope we can deveop another star coach ala Butter - anyone stand out on our current staff as a potential 'star' coarch?

John Northey - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 02:44 PM EST (#317628) #
I suspect Gordon has a home town discount mixed in there to go along with the 'oh crap its 2016 and I'm not locked in anywhere yet' feeling. I suspect a few more will sign soon.

There are few worth chasing now for the Jays, guess the most exciting thing is waiting to see if Tim Raines makes it into the HOF this afternoon or if he comes up just short (barely over 75% after 194 ballots counted).
China fan - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 03:29 PM EST (#317629) #
"....St. Alex will gladly do as he's told by a Los Angeles Dodger baseball president Andrew Friedman and GM Farhan Zaidl. While St. Alex could only be a 'one-man show' in Toronto Canada ... he's a happy third-desk viola in Los Angeles, California...."

He'll gladly "do as he's told" in Los Angeles?  He's just a "third-desk viola" in his new job?  Wow, absurd hyperbole much?  Apparently AA doesn't even know what's best for himself. He should have hired old CBDC to be his agent, and then he'd finally achieve happiness.

I doubt very much that AA will be some faceless drone in the factory floor of the Dodger operation.  He'll have a nice salary in an organization with a much higher payroll than the Blue Jays, and I'm sure his expertise will be valued and he'll have quite a bit of autonomy in working on trades and contracts, even if he will have to consult others before he makes big trades (which he did in the Beeston days too, don't forget).

Even if his business card has a job title that isn't as impressive as "General Manager," it's easy to see why AA decided to leave Toronto and go to a fresh organization such as the Dodgers.  When an organization doesn't bother to make the compromises that are necessary to retain your services -- after an incredibly successful year -- it's completely understandable that he might want to leave.  And a move to another organization, even without the obvious "GM" title, makes perfect sense.  Why stay in an organization that doesn't value your achievements?  And who knows what promises have been made to AA about future advancement in the Dodger organization.  I'm sure AA won't be as miserable in LA as his enemies seem to wish for.  It's more likely that -- like most people -- he made the decisions that were right for him and his family.

As you know, Rogers tried desperately to keep AA when they realized that he was going to leave. They offered him a one-year contract, then a two-year contract and various contract options and opt-outs.  If only they had hired CBDC as their adviser!  Then he would have enlightened Rogers that they were making a huge mistake by offering him any contract at all.  Still, one wonders:  why did Rogers try to keep him, when CBDC was wishing him "good riddance"?   It's almost as if the owners had realized that they were making a mistake by pushing him out.

"...hopefully you, and your also departing fans, won't be struck by the door on your way out..."

Here's where CBDC's sarcasm totally overwhelms him, and he subsides into incoherent hatred.  Does anyone seriously believe that the Jays are helped by chasing away talented executives and alienating many fans?  How does that help?  If you alienate fans, you weaken the fan base, reduce the revenue and ultimately weaken the payroll.  Then eventually you have a losing team again.  So you are supposed to keep fans, not alienate them.  And why would anyone be so gleeful at the departure of a talented executive?  There were many ways for Rogers to finesse the situation and to keep both Shapiro and Anthopoulos in 2016  (if anyone at Rogers was capable of finesse).  Why drive away a talented GM who has great contacts in the league, great personnel skills, and great negotiating ability?  How does that help the organization?

I know CBDC is a staunch defender of Rogers, and perhaps even a shareholder.  That doesn't explain why he actually thinks it's a good idea for Rogers to alienate its own fans and convert many of them into "departing fans" (in his own phrase).
mathesond - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 03:35 PM EST (#317630) #
It's all about the laundry - the players that fill them, and the suits that hire the players, don't matter.
China fan - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 03:48 PM EST (#317631) #
From a Globe and Mail report today:

"During Anthopoulos’ six-year tenure, the Jays were under an elastic series of payroll restrictions. That won’t be a problem in L.A. The Dodgers have far and away the highest wage bill in baseball. They feature the finest pitcher in the game, Clayton Kershaw. The team’s made the playoffs in five out of the last eight seasons.
 "Anthopoulos would be working under another Canadian-born executive, Farhan Zaidi.  Zaidi is one of the young, wonky executives tutored in Billy Beane’s sabermetric nursery. He’s been the general manager Los Angeles for a year. He is a long-time friend of Anthopoulos, stretching back to when both were young assistant GMs."


Yeah, I can see where Anthopoulos might actually prefer this situation over the one in Toronto.  In Toronto, after years of being vetoed by Rogers, he faced a situation in 2016 where he was going to be vetoed by Shapiro and Rogers -- so he'd be hampered by two vetoes, not one.  In Los Angeles, he'll be able to discuss deals with his long-time friend, and he's unlikely to be vetoed by the owners very much at all.  So arguably he'll actually have more autonomy in Los Angeles than he would have had in Toronto.  And probably a higher salary, and certainly a bigger payroll to play with.  A better deal, all round, for Anthopoulos, despite the gleeful assumptions of his inaccurate enemies on this site.
jerjapan - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 04:37 PM EST (#317632) #
LA certainly seems like a more appealing org to work for if you set aside the fact that AA is Canadian.  Huge payroll, very talented and progressive FO, beautiful weather and an old-school org with some tremendous history? Sounds good to me .... and Dodgers stadium is a cool place - I was there in the 2000s and was surprised at how non-corporate it felt compared to the Dome - less advertising and none of the shrill between innings entertainment.  That could be a thing of the past by now though, since Frank McCourt sold the team in 2012 ....

I don't get why AA moving to LA is seen by some as selling out - I've worked for people that I would never chose to work for (if only I could somehow achieve FA status).

jgadfly - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 05:12 PM EST (#317633) #
CBDC ... Nice Catch !

Actually, a great catch of the Halladay family support for the Jays in October and update with pics on son Brandon ... The Doc remains "a class act"

On a lesser note ... I'll read your Al Jazeera congrats as being facetious, not that I didn't hold the same sentiment before reading MLB Trade Rumors' Steve Adams | January 5, 2016 at 6:25pm CST ... which reads in part ...

"According to a report from Reuters (Twitter link) and a second report from Jim Salisbury of CSNPhilly.com (also on Twitter), Nationals first baseman Ryan Zimmerman and Phillies first baseman Ryan Howard have filed lawsuits against the Al Jazeera media outlet for the PED allegations against each player in Al Jazeera’s recent documentary, The Dark Side. The controversial documentary was released in late December, although within hours of its release, the documentary’s main witness, Charlie Sly, told ESPN that the comments he made regarding Zimmerman and Howard were “absolutely false and incorrect,” adding that the comments he made to British hurdler Liam Collins, who went undercover for the film, were his attempt to “pull one over on Collins to see if he had any idea of what he was talking about.”

Why would anyone trust a guy with a name like Sly ... hopefully, for their sake, they had two more knowledgeable sources to collaborate ... my apologies for my cut/paste of a fairly lengthy paragraph.
jgadfly - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 05:38 PM EST (#317634) #
RE: Great Catch ...

Perhaps I should relink CBDC's catch of Halladay's tweet account ... I was referencing Roy's October tweets which include pictures of son Braden ... then & now ...

https://twitter.com/RoyHalladay
greenfrog - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 05:42 PM EST (#317635) #
Anthopoulos's departure does make me less interested in the Jays going forward. I'm tired of Rogers' shenanigans and payroll parameters and I think there is likely going to be a rebuilding phase starting after (perhaps during) 2016. The 71-cent dollar is probably going to further constrain Shapiro in the near term. I think Alex got out at the right time.
JB21 - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 06:06 PM EST (#317636) #
Not a fan of Roy's tweets. Chances are there are guys in the HOF that used PED's. Maybe Roy used PED's, how do we really know? Barry Bonds really wasn't good enough to compete fairly? Ok Doc. Or he was sick of everybody else using PED's and decided to join their game and destroy them at that too? Bonds deserves to be in the HOF.
CeeBee - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 06:20 PM EST (#317637) #
And who may be kept out of the HOF by allegations which may or may not be true. Anybody can spread rumours and lies. Once a players name has been mentioned, and it doesn't matter who does the deed, it's almost impossible to make the PED talk go away.
scottt - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 07:13 PM EST (#317638) #
I find it interesting that AA passed Tim Wallach for coach, some say because he was too tied to the Dodgers, and instead signed Farrell who had no experience and who was atrocious in the role, even though he proved too tied to the Red Sox, to finally end up himself with the Dodgers soon after Tim Wallach has taken a job with the Marlins. If there's no bad blood there, there ought to be some.

scottt - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 07:15 PM EST (#317639) #
Not a fan of your comment. You're probably a cheat yourself.
ISLAND BOY - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 07:18 PM EST (#317640) #
It goes to show what a crapshoot the amateur draft is when Ken Griffey Jr. is the first 1st overall pick to make the HOF. Some have been pretty good- Harold Baines, Chipper Jones, Darryl Strawberry; some good, some mediocre, and some washouts. First overalls currently playing with a chance to make it: Alex Rodriguez ( probably blacklisted for PED's ), Bryce Harper, and ( Will-he-wear-a blue-jay-hat-if-he-makes-it ? :) ) David Price.
Paul D - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 08:08 PM EST (#317641) #
Island Boy, an even bigger example might be Griffeys xo-inductee - Piazza was selected on the 62nd round.
ISLAND BOY - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 10:08 PM EST (#317642) #
Yep, 1390th player overall that year, and only as a favor to his father by Tommy Lasorda.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 10:25 PM EST (#317643) #
I think Jeff Bagwell gets in next year. Getting over 70% of the vote is a strong indication he's next. Beyond that, the BWAA of the Hall can be too wishy-washy to make much sense.
John Northey - Wednesday, January 06 2016 @ 11:28 PM EST (#317644) #
It is funny isn't it? Griffey the first #1 pick to make the HOF and Piazza a 62nd round pick making it. Of all 1390th overall picks only 3 others ever made it totaling 61 games.

For first overall pick only 3 have over 50 WAR lifetime (Mauer likely to join that group within a year or two). There are also 3 with worse than a -1.0 WAR lifetime (all long retired). 6 have never made the majors (the last 3 plus 2004, 1991, and 1966).

Three times the Jays picked 2nd overall (never first) and got 2 guys who never reached plus Lloyd Moseby. Best pick for the Jays ever has to be Roy Halladay at 64 WAR lifetime but the first HOF'er could be Jeff Kent a 20th round pick (55.2 WAR and most HR for a second baseman ever). Dave Stieb might be the best ever and he was a 5th round pick.

Recent HOF'er John Smoltz was a 22nd round pick, Andre Dawson an 11th round pick - checked all BBWAA picks in the 2010's. Many were 2nd round picks.

Yeah, the draft is a crapshoot isn't it? Higher picks improve your odds but quality does sneak down quite often.
JB21 - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 01:41 AM EST (#317645) #
What.
Dave Till - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 07:09 AM EST (#317646) #
Question: who were the writers who did not vote for Ken Griffey Jr. for the Hall of Fame? Given that he got 99.3% of the vote, and 439 votes total, there would be four of these people. This is just wrong.
Chuck - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 08:56 AM EST (#317647) #
who were the writers who did not vote for Ken Griffey Jr. for the Hall of Fame?

All things considered (given it is the BBWAA), Griffey did well. I believe his vote percentage was the highest in history. Should he have been a unanimous choice? Of course, but then so should have many, many who went before.

James W - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 09:00 AM EST (#317648) #
There are 3 voters, as Griffey received 437 out of 440 votes. So far, word has not come out on who those voters were.
grjas - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 09:02 AM EST (#317649) #
I have to admit that AA's departure has left a bad taste in my mouth both for the team and for their ex-GM, even though I thought he was overrated. I guess we'll never know the full story on why he left, how hard they tried to retain him, and for that matter how much his ego may have well driven his decision.

But it's just another nail in the coffin for me for a team that underspent for years, straddled 500 for two decades, hung on to two r ally bad GMs, screwed up the 2014 ceo search, overhyped the arrival of grass etc etc

I have a playoff hangover, and there ain't much aspirin coming. Hopefully our threadbare pitching surprises or I may need other interests next summer.
SK in NJ - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 09:13 AM EST (#317650) #
"The purpose may be similar, but the approach seems different - AA tended to favour guys with a potentially higher ceiling (for AAAA talent) that Shapiro seems to be targeting. Ugly mentioned "milb greatness, or loud tools to pique the interest". At the very least, a lot of the arms AA brought in could throw hard, or had been dominant at some level- a key difference between Schultz et al, and Leon, Diamond, McCoy etc."


AA did an unusually high amount of waiver claims, while so far Shapiro has not. I believe he has only picked up Lake on waivers. It's easier to find players with some upside on waivers or trade than it is with minor league deals.

Minor league deals, especially in terms of pitching, are generally given to players with red flags (injury, performance, age, etc), and therefore are expected to be depth in AAA. Waiver claims are where you might be able to get something, and clearly AA was way more active on that front than Shapiro has been so far, but that doesn't really change the fact that while I did like some of AA's claims, we were ultimately dealing with minor league relievers (Burns, Orames, Barnes, Guilmet, Schultz, West) and a 31-year old coming off two straight negative WAR performances at the MLB level (Colabello). It wasn't some huge list of high upside talent. It was pretty much the norm.

I think people are putting too much weight on the significance of these moves.
Parker - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 11:04 AM EST (#317651) #
I have a totally unfounded suspicion that the voters who didn't vote for The Kid are the ones who want to make sure that nobody gets voted in unanimously until Derek Jeter is eligible. I hope I'm wrong, because that is appalling if it's true.
Richard S.S. - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 11:14 AM EST (#317652) #
To be blunt, it's not about Jeter, it's about Race. I thought this crap had been flushed out of baseball by now.
John Northey - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 12:02 PM EST (#317653) #
Meh, the 3 who didn't vote for him could have had any number of (dumb) reasons.
1) Won't vote for anyone who was involved in the 1994 strike
2) Was overrated and wasn't that good once he left Seattle
3) Bitter over him leaving Seattle for Cincinnati
4) He was rude to a writer once and that writer never forgot or forgave it
5) Filled all 10 slots and decided since Griffey was a lock to use his slot for someone else who was in danger of falling off the ballot or who is close to making it and needs every vote they can get
6) Thinks Griffey used PED's (no one said any logic was needed)
7) No one gets my vote year one as if Ruth and Aaron (or whoever their favorite is) didn't get 100%, no one does on my watch.

I'm sure I could come up with more but I think race is a very low item on the 'why some idiot didn't vote for Griffey' list. I figure the purging of old voters will help increase the odds of a 100% vote as it clears out the 'get off my lawn' types but it'll be a few more years until they are all gone - sadly they'll probably be replaced by a new generation of geezers (just a bit older than me...gulp) who will start coming up with their own reasons for not voting for someone.

I think it'll be super-funny if the first with 100% is Rivera as he is a closer (which most analytical types feel cannot be as valuable as a starter or everyday player). He is undisputed as the best ever closer with more saves than anyone and more WAR by a mile. He has a great postseason resume, many WS rings, no PED fears, no scandals that I can think of. So yeah, I can see him or Jeter getting that impossible 100%. What would be funny is to see someone get it in their 2nd year - someone who gets 74% or something very close in year one and was clearly a HOFer but not 'inner circle'. That would be very funny to see.
jerjapan - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 12:06 PM EST (#317654) #
SK, good point on the value of waiver claims (and the resulting opportunity cost of a roster spot) vs. minor leage free agents - I think you're right that the value I was citing was largely on the 40 man.  But there are plenty of examples of guys who add value without taking a roster spot - Mune Kawasaki generated 1.4 WAR for us over 3 years (as well as plenty of memorable moments), and Jesse Carlson had a couple of good years in our pen during the JPR years.  Homeruns like Gregor Blanco And Jose Quintana demonstrate real value. 

This is a great read from last year on the competitive advantage of the Yanks budget for signing minor league FA.  Yangervis Solarte alone makes this approach financially viable, and he too has produced genuine value (relatively) with 3.2 WAR over the past 2 years.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-yankees-found-another-way-to-outspend-every-other-team/

Given the wide-open nature of our pen and our 'payroll parameters', I think we could generate some legit value in this market. 

Richard SS, not sure if you were on the box back in the day when Bonds couldn't get a FA offer, but the discussion around race was an interesting one at the time.  A lot of people disagreed that it was a factor in his unemployment (unless jerk is a race) - but I'm with you, I think he was scapegoated a bit as an intense black man.  Certainly he would have been a great player without the PEDs, like Clemmens. 
Richard S.S. - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 01:17 PM EST (#317655) #
With the disaster that was 2013, A.A. made some major changes to his drafting policy. When he needed top end prospects to come up and play, all that showed was replacement level talent and the season was lost. Going into 2014, A.A. changed how he drafted. High upside and extreme talented College/University were selected early and often in 2014 and fewer high upside High School picks were selected. I think the idea was the faster to the majors the more useful the asset.

Matt Boyd (175 - 2013), Kendall Graveman (225 - 2013), Sean Nolin (186 - 2010), Miguel Castro (IFA July - 2012), Daniel Norris (74 - 2011) got MLB playing time and became valuable trade assets, whether or not they were that good. Jeff Hoffman (9 - 2014)went because he could have been #1 and had high upside hype, despite not being as good. You can't evaluate what was lost until you evaluate what was gained, and no one will have the same opinion.

Basically 8 High School picks were made last year (2015) and only 3 were signed, a marked change from previous years. No one should have an opinion about them yet, much too soon. However, this year the Talent will show who they are. Those you give every opportunity to move fast. I don't know the Jays will draft this year. I don't know who drafts for the Jays this year. I just know they have to get it right.

I don't know how you can judge what someone does without a lot of hindsight available. Filling future needs is well and good, but the Big Picture will always be what is needed now. That's very simple, World Series 2016.
Dave Till - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 01:27 PM EST (#317656) #

Meh, the 3 who didn't vote for him could have had any number of (dumb) reasons.

7) No one gets my vote year one as if Ruth and Aaron (or whoever their favorite is) didn't get 100%, no one does on my watch.

It's probably this one. I envision some crusty old guy who still yearns for the days of Joe DiMaggio, and who thinks that Junior disrespected the game because he turned his baseball cap backwards every now and again. And who hasn't had any fun of any kind since 1958.

I have a totally unfounded suspicion that the voters who didn't vote for The Kid are the ones who want to make sure that nobody gets voted in unanimously until Derek Jeter is eligible.

Gaah. Blaaargh. Ick. Ugh. Noooo! I so hope you're wrong, but I am afraid you might be right. Jeter is just the sort of player that appeals to a crusty old sportswriter (see above).

This reminds me of my favourite hobby horse: Derek Jeter and Roberto Alomar are basically the same player. Here's their career averages:

Jeter: .310 BA, .377 OBP, .440 SLG, .817 OPS
Alomar: .300 BA, .371 OBP, .443 SLG, .814 OPS

Both were considered very smart players. Jeter was a shortstop with below-average range for much of his career; Alomar was a second baseman with good range. Jeter lasted a bit longer, so he ranks one click ahead, but they're basically the same guy.

Richard SS, not sure if you were on the box back in the day when Bonds couldn't get a FA offer, but the discussion around race was an interesting one at the time. A lot of people disagreed that it was a factor in his unemployment (unless jerk is a race) - but I'm with you, I think he was scapegoated a bit as an intense black man.

If it were anybody other than Bonds, I might agree that race might have been a factor. But Bonds was well known for having used PEDs and for being, um, somewhat difficult to deal with. When you factor in his likely salary expectation and his age, I can easily see why no team would want him.

JB21 - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 01:53 PM EST (#317657) #
It is certainly possible that the 3 voters decided that Jr was definitely going to get in and because of the absurd maximum 10 votes rule they decided to use their votes to vote for guys who they wouldn't be able to vote for due to the dumb rule.
Richard S.S. - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 01:55 PM EST (#317658) #
...not sure if you were on the box back in the day when Bonds couldn't get a FA offer...

I think I was, not totally sure. I'm considered a WASP in the terms of the day from back them and I'm basically skin-colour blind. I literally don't see a difference and that's why the U.S. doesn't make sense to me. I think it becomes a Race issue because someone makes it a Race issue and that's when it gets stupid.

Barry Bonds is a Hall of Famer. He's a jerk to the extreme and that will never change. You cannot make the extreme body changes he made at his age, without taking something. That being said, he's been a supreme talent since the day of his draft and expected to be a HOF since that time. I don't think you can keep him out of the Hall of Fame, because without actual 'legal' proof, you can't keep anyone out. Just look a what got in?
JB21 - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 01:57 PM EST (#317659) #
Roger Clemens said today that Roy Halladay used amphetamines, which, may or may not be true, but it brings me back to the point of trying to guess who did or who didn't use PED's is a dangerous game.
John Northey - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 02:07 PM EST (#317660) #
Yeah, I think Halladay is learning the problem with acting like a jerk today. He was crowing about Clemens and Bonds not getting in this year, so Clemens responded by pointing out there is about as much evidence Halladay used as there is that Clemens used - using a trainer who gave out pills.

Of course, Halladay has a lot of smoking guns ala Bagwell. He was on the 1998 Jays when he came up, along with Jose Canseco, Roger Clemens, Clemens trainer, and others I strongly suspect (I love Tony Fernandez, one of my all time favorites but am certain he used in his big 2 years at 3B here when he hit 400 for 1/2 a season then had to go to Japan the next year). Halladay went through a collapse 2 years later, then recovered faster than dreamed by pretty much everyone and went from 10.49 ERA to Cy Young in only 3 years with a 145 ERA+ the year he was 'fixed' seeing his K/9 go from 5.4 (231 IP) to 8.2 (105 1/3) overnight. He only had 2 more years with a sub 6 K/9 in his career. Was it all hard work and good coaching or was there something else there? I suspect he was fairly clean but he was being really stupid to blast Clemens when he is just a couple years from the ballot himself.
mathesond - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 02:23 PM EST (#317661) #
For those that are interested, Fangraphs is polling baseball fans as to their opisions of their team's owner(s)
Richard S.S. - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 02:49 PM EST (#317662) #
If you are willing to pay players $300.0 K - $450.0 K/year up to $200.0 K/month to play in the minors until they are needed, you'll always be better off as a Team. That's why some Teams do better with minor league signings.

Waiver claims are different. They need a roster spot and are usually out of options. They've take up a roster spot from someone different/better or are too costly to keep. Reliever-types frequently fall into this category. It's all about who you can keep.

Depending on needs, governs which predominates. The AAA Team in Buffalo needs a lot so minor league signings predominate, which also caters to future Jays needs. The Jays need Minor League depth at Hitting and Pitching positions. Acquiring a 5th Starter better than existing options is very unlikely to be a waiver claim, although it might be a minor league signing. Upgrading Bullpen arms is also very unlikely to be a waiver claim and not likely a minor league signing. I suspect any pitching acquisitions will be Free Agents that come from waiting the market out. After all, the Starter is your 5th - 7th Starter and your Bullpen arms are your 4th - 7th Relievers. All that matter is, "Are they better than existing options?"
uglyone - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 03:06 PM EST (#317663) #
https://twitter.com/RoyHalladay/status/685129720988569600
vw_fan17 - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 04:45 PM EST (#317664) #

If it were anybody other than Bonds, I might agree that race might have been a factor. But Bonds was well known for having used PEDs and for being, um, somewhat difficult to deal with. When you factor in his likely salary expectation and his age, I can easily see why no team would want him.

IIRC, Bonds said he would happily play for the MLB minimum or $1M (forget which) AND donate 100% of the money to charity, just to keep playing. Still no takers. For a guy who had 17 straight years of OPS+ of 156 or better. Including OPS+ of 169 the year before.

Carlos Delgado only hit better than 169 ONCE - in 2000 at 181. So imagine Carlos Delgado in his prime (Bonds wasn't the fastest guy anymore), offering play for the MLB minimum. And no one being interested. Not necessarily race related, but definitely some kind of politicking going on...

jerjapan - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 04:55 PM EST (#317665) #
I'd forgotten that fact VW, but it certainly adds to the evidence - ultimately, I just think Bonds was picked to be the PED scapegoat.

For those that are interested, Fangraphs is polling baseball fans as to their opisions of their team's owner(s)

Wow, 50% of fans have Rogers at bad or very bad.  That has them behind only the Reds, Rockies, Pads and Os, and the noted criminals who own the Mets and the Marlins (he's got to be guilty of something, right?)

 

JB21 - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 06:18 PM EST (#317666) #
Well, if Roy Halladay says he's clean, he must be clean.

#sarcasmfont
ComebyDeanChance - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 07:25 PM EST (#317667) #
Amazing that some purported Blue Jay 'fans' are so down with Cheat and Lie that they'll smear Roy Halladay to support the cheats. I have to wonder what their real lives are like when they believe cheating and lying is to be honoured, and that disparaging cheaters and liars like Halladay did make you a "jerk', or worthy of insults.
ComebyDeanChance - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 07:28 PM EST (#317668) #
Yeah, I think Halladay is learning the problem with acting like a jerk today. He was crowing about Clemens and Bonds not getting in this year, so Clemens responded by pointing out there is about as much evidence Halladay used as there is that Clemens used - using a trainer who gave out pills.

The only evidence against Clemens is that he used a trainer who gave out pills? Wow. Just Wow.
Four Seamer - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 08:03 PM EST (#317669) #

Amazing that some purported Blue Jay 'fans' are so down with Cheat and Lie that they'll smear Roy Halladay to support the cheats.

Well said, ComebyDeanChance (as usual).

John Northey - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 08:47 PM EST (#317670) #
ComebyDeanChance - I've yet to hear of anyone other than that trainer accuse Clemens who would have any idea if he did or did not use. Pettitte said some stuff but then changed his story at least once and is a known PED user who the media still loves for some reason.

Hey, I loved watching Halladay pitch but lets be real here. He is saying that he was 100% clean just like guys have always said who were big, athletic, worked out tons. Any of this sounding familiar yet? Halladay and Clemens were very similar in body type and workout ethic. Halladay had a horrid start to his career then suddenly became an ace, the best in the business while playing on a team that had known cheaters on it who would've had tons of influence on a young kid who just made it to the majors - does that not seem just a bit odd or raise red flags to you?

I find it funny how many still just follow the media. The same media that ignored pills in McGwire's locker in 1998, then tore McGwire a new one years later when it became fashionable to attack PED users. Who ignore Canseco screaming from the rooftops about A-Rod using (among others) then decided A-Rod was the devil years later. I suspect many will be going 'woohoo' about I-Rod getting into the HOF faster than Piazza despite Canseco saying I-Rod used. Not to mention the total blindness to guys who scream guilty like Kirby Puckett (from 0 to 30 HR power in 2 years while skyrocketing in size thanks to weights).

I'm a fan who is sick of moralizing from players and media. Up until 2004 there were no real rules on PEDs so get over it. Bonds only started based on the damning book about him, which is quite well written and a must read imo, after he saw the media and fans go 'woohoo' about McGwire/Sosa when anyone with 1/2 a brain knew PEDs were involved, especially after the locker incident. If he didn't do PED's after that - heck any player who didn't - then he'd be hurting his team and his career much like the guys who refused to work out in the 80's (many refused as they thought doing 'baseball drills' would keep them in playing shape) did to their careers/teams.
John Northey - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 09:01 PM EST (#317671) #
FYI: did a bit of checking. Clemens has been accused by McNamee (the trainer known as a liar) and Jose Canseco who has a great track record on this stuff. Of note: he was named in the Mitchell Report based 100% on McNamee's testimony. So 1 other person but one who I generally believe at this point as he seems to know who did what when in Canseco (bit of a scum otherwise but in this he knows his stuff).
Paul D - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 09:34 PM EST (#317672) #
Clemens is the best pitcher in modern baseball history. Bonds is the second best hitter. I find it fun to appreciate their careers, no matter what may have fueled them.
whiterasta80 - Thursday, January 07 2016 @ 11:24 PM EST (#317673) #
I doubt that 1998 Clemens was aware that roy halladay even existed. Clemens was the type to "forget a former teammate who wore a batting helmet in the field".

I won't dismiss Clemens' accusations but he's presently a single source and there is no subjective physical evidence (admittedly tougher for amphets than anabolics). Plus Roy did play through the testing era.

Regardless of if he is being a hypocrite (doubt it) I completely agree with halladay's opinion that those two in particular and the known cheaters in general (A-Rod, Braun) should be kept out of the hall. I guess by extension that means that I also feel that Marcus Stroman should be ineligible should his career ultimately merit consideration, although the fact that it was MiLB clouds that particular case. It's the extreme position but I think it's in the long term best interests of the game and society. An athlete should never be asked to make the choice between long term health and playing the sport that they love. Baseball is beautiful in that the low prevalence of concussions means that this is actually possible where it isn't in football or hockey. To put this differently, if PEDs that negatively impact a players health or haven't been adequately tested are allowed (either overtly or through negligence) then we basically turn players into cattle.

I've heard the counter arguments and they just don't hold weight to me:

I fundamentally disagree with the notion that we can't keep people out of the hall of fame just because we don't know who was using. Punishing some obvious cases (and these are obvious cases in contrast to piazza/bagwell etc...) serves as a better deterrant than punishing none.

I also don't care that admitted cheater gaylord perry is in the HoF or that multiple inductees from the 70s and 80s may have used amphetamines/cocaine- two wrongs do not make a right.

For those people who have already cashed their cheques the hall of fame remains the last chance for punishment. In certain cases of egomaniacs (clemens, a-rod, bonds) keeping them out of the hall is likely to cut deep and that is important.

I am a firm believer that the best approach going forward is to go the route of nuclear deterrent. Gambling is not a major issue in baseball because of a clear nuclear threat. The Blacksox and Rose are the obvious examples amongst several. Mays and Mantle were briefly banned for even working at Casinos post-retirement while basically unassociated with baseball (obviously an overreaction that was reversed). Jarrett Cosart was just fined for betting on something other than baseball. Rule 21 has effectively separated baseball from European soccer (or the NBA) for almost a century.

christaylor - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 10:22 AM EST (#317674) #
OK. Show of hands - do you think that players playing today, even in today's testing environment, are not using undetectable substances that (at least in their minds) improve performance?

This article seems relevant (see the section about SARMs):

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8470

The comparison to gambling is a red herring - you don't have to identify the substance players are taking, develop a test, a test which almost certainly does not have perfect sensitivity and specificity. With gambling, there is always a paper trail somewhere at some time, or else, how would one get paid? Gambling is more similar to insider trading than a trader taking modafinil to work longer hours.

The HOF is moralizing itself into irrelevance by not including Bonds and Clemens. It is a museum and heck, would a museum of war be worth going to if it did not present exhibits that included people of dubious character?
John Northey - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 11:37 AM EST (#317675) #
For those Rose supporters (and Shoeless Joe ones) ...
Gambling puts an incentive to lose into the game, making every game like a pro-wrestling tournament where everything is scripted. In the 1890's it nearly killed MLB, and again in the 1919 WS.

PED's were guys trying to be the best possible by any means available. Many have said they would've used had they played in the environment of the 90's (where PEDs were ignored by media and fans while obvious users were celebrated). Does anyone really think Ty Cobb or Babe Ruth would've said no to steroids, 'the cream', or anything else?

I feel punishing those caught once it was clearly no longer acceptable to use (like Palmeiro) can be kept out but guys like Bonds & Clemens who are accused (not caught or confessed) to have used in the 90's/early 00's and even guys like McGwire who have confessed can go into the HOF.

To me, guys who didn't use PED's in the 90's when there were no rules on it were hurting themselves and their teams.
John Northey - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 11:54 AM EST (#317676) #
christaylor - very good article there. Clearly PED's are around and strong as ever just better hidden (few look like McGwire did, or changed in appearance like Bonds). The media, as always, is 100 steps behind and still fighting old battles while ignoring the new ones.

MLB is seeing what the Olympics has seen for years. As tests get better so do the drugs. They end up banning so much stuff that it becomes a mine field for many athletes where they get caught for using over the counter cough syrup.
Dave Till - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 01:00 PM EST (#317677) #

I just think Bonds was picked to be the PED scapegoat.

Part of it, I think, was that Bonds was putting up numbers that were so good as to be ludicrous. A .609 on-base percentage? 73 home runs? A 1.422 OPS at the age of 39? What is this - wiffleball?

Also, he had spent so much time working out and taking PEDs that he looked like a cyborg. Had nothing been done, all other batters would have turned into cyborgs too (or tried to) and baseball would have become a perpetual home run derby. Ugh.

I don't doubt that some form of PED use still goes on; players will always use whatever advantages they can get away with, whether it be "greenies", multiple doses of caffeinated beverages, or whatever else is available. (Buck O'Neil once said, if I recall correctly, that the only reason why Negro League players didn't use steroids was because they didn't have them.) But at least today's game has a balance between pitching, hitting, and fielding.

Clemens is the best pitcher in modern baseball history. Bonds is the second best hitter. I find it fun to appreciate their careers, no matter what may have fueled them.

What I find troubling is that I wonder what kind of careers these players would have had if they had not used. How much help do PEDs provide, anyway? Can they take an ordinary player whose career would have stalled out at class AA and transform him into a superstar? Or is it just a question of adding a little bit of help?

The sad part is that Bonds probably would have been a Hall of Famer if he had not bothered using. His early career numbers with Pittsburgh were pretty much good enough on their own, if he had managed any kind of longevity. I'm not so sure about Clemens - without chemical help, his career might have ended at about the time he became a Blue Jay.

The HOF is moralizing itself into irrelevance by not including Bonds and Clemens.

The HOF is doing what it has always done: it sees itself as the moral guardian of baseball and its myths. Recall that it is based in Cooperstown because it buys into the myth that Abner Doubleday invented the game.

That's why I've never really cared that much who goes into the HOF and who doesn't - it's an artificial construct that doesn't really have much to do with the history of baseball as it actually happened. The real history of baseball includes spitballs, the old Orioles tugging on baserunners' belts as they tried to score, gamblers trying to fix games, managers attempting to steal signs through the scoreboard, and so on and so on. I don't really care about the sanitized history as it appears on plaques. That's just there to give people a reason to travel to upstate New York and spend their tourist dollars.

Having said that: I find it difficult to exclude known PED users from the HOF because I don't think that the various investigations caught all of the users. Leaving Clemens out while letting Player X in, only because Player X wasn't caught, doesn't seem fair to me.

JB21 - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 01:04 PM EST (#317678) #
ComebyDeanChance, who smeared Roy Halladay? Nobody said that Roy took anything (other than Clemens), all we're saying is it is very tough to assume that any professional athlete did not take anything to enhance their performance.
JB21 - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 01:11 PM EST (#317679) #
Well said Dave.

FWIW, from a deadspin article posted earlier this week.

"If Bonds had retired after his age-27 season (1992) rather than signing with the San Francisco Giants, he would have done so with 50.1 career rWAR, more than 42 Hall of Fame position players."

That's removing his 15 years as a SF Giant. It's mostly believed that he started using around 1998-2000. Barry Bonds deserves to be in the HOF.
John Northey - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 02:01 PM EST (#317680) #
Generally the line for Bonds & Clemens is that they started after the home run chase by McGwire & Sosa when it became painfully obvious that PED's were in use and that the media and fans (and MLB itself) didn't care one iota. So right after the 1998 season then.

That is what makes the whole 'Clemens used' argument fall apart. In both 1997 and 1998 he won the pitchers triple crown as a Blue Jay. He then demanded a trade to the Yankees (as per his contract). Up to then he was 233-124 2.95 ERA with over 3000 K's 151 ERA+ - a HOF lock. After he was 121-60 3.48 ERA 129 ERA+. Those PED's didn't seem to help. Plus 3 of those years post-98 were in the NL which is really a AAAA league it seems (2.40 ERA 180 ERA+).

Bonds through 1998 had a 290/411/556 line 164 OPS+ 411 HR just shy of 2000 hits. A HOF'er for sure. Then he followed McGwire and became a baseball God. From 1999 to 2007 he hit 316/505/712 for a 214 OPS+ with 351 HR in 3226 AB's. Just wow. Ruth's peak (1919-1931) saw a 215 OPS+. When you can be within one of Ruth's peak for OPS+ something weird is happening.

Bonds showed us what happens if you put top PED's with a top athlete. So if he went that far beyond the norm what should've happened with Clemens is the same - he should've kept at the 97/98 level for years. That is why I tend to give Clemens more benefit of the doubt than Bonds.
Dave Till - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 02:21 PM EST (#317681) #
We will never know for sure whether Clemens used, unless he hires out a billboard and prints a confession on it.

The circumstantial evidence against him is:
- He took a sudden leap forward in 1997 (though he did lead the league in strikeouts in 1996)
- His career lasted an unusually long time (but then, so did Nolan Ryan's)
- When he was pitching in Toronto, he was one big dude (in the same way that Sosa and McGwire were big and bulky)
whiterasta80 - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 02:44 PM EST (#317682) #
I have no issue with players wanting to achieve their physical best and can certainly discriminate that from what gambling does to the game.

But I come from a pharmacology background, and the amount of "testing" that goes into most PEDs is pathetic. You are basically asking an athlete to take something that has a chance of taking years off their lives. Even if this doesn't happen at proper doses, you are now administering drugs out of a supervised medical environment which will inevitably lead to overdosing among the desperate. Unless 100% of all athletes are willing to risk permanent health consequences then you have to keep the substances banned in my opinion. Otherwise you are just raising horses or cattle as I said above.

John- Steroids were banned in 1991 courtesy of Fay Vincent. It wasn't that there weren't rules in the 90s, its that there wasn't any testing. But clearly the players knew that it was illegal: just look at how they went about taking/getting their steroids. Accordingly I have to respectfully disagree with the notion that guys who weren't using PEDs were just "hurting their team". To me, a select group of insecure jerks were forcing those around them to choose between their health and integrity and competing (or even making it) in the majors.

whiterasta80 - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 02:55 PM EST (#317683) #
Dave- you seem to be playing the "reasonable doubt" card here. Fortunately as this isn't a court of law we are not held to this standard. But even if we are you failed to list McNamee's accusation, Andy Pettite's half-accusation, and DNA evidence for which the Ryan Braun- chain of custody defense was played. There's a fair bit beyond the physical and statistical transformations.

Bonds, Clemens, and A-Rod have all became the major scapegoats here and to me there's a few reasons why- the first two being very obvious:

First, they are all a-holes... just massive a-holes.

Second, they are perceived to have absolutely stolen records from beloved players (Ok Bonds stole one of his records from McGwire but still...).

But I think an under-appreciated reason why is their untarnished contemporary comps.

For Bonds that is Probably Ken Griffey Jr. Both athletic multi-tool outfielders, perennial MVP candidates and similar profiles through age 30. Griffey, unfortunately, aged normally, if not rapidly robbing fans of potentially the greatest career in history while Bonds decided to take the easy way out- resulting in arguably the greatest career in history but with an asterisk bigger than his hat size.

The only two peers that could hold a candle to Clemens
were probably Pedro and Maddux. Again, two pitchers that went about their careers very differently but remained likeable and have no links to PEDs. We don't have to question their stats and because of that we look down upon Roger.

A-Rod will forever be compared to either Cal Ripken or Derek Jeter. Obviously he wins the stats category there but again people will question how much of raw ability and how much was the meds.
CeeBee - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 03:20 PM EST (#317684) #
Every year about this time we seem to re-hash this topic and beat it to death..... every frickin year and I'm kinda getting tired of it. Boo ya!!!
Chuck - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 04:56 PM EST (#317685) #
Every year about this time we seem to re-hash this topic and beat it to death.

This and the business of who is an all-star. Welcome to groundhog day.

uglyone - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 05:16 PM EST (#317686) #
I think people are especially annoyed with Arod, Barry, and Clemens because they were/could have been so damn good WITHOUT the roids. It's like they stole our enjoyment of their greatness from us.

imo guyys like McGuire or Sosa arenn't as hated because they were so clearly just roid products in retrospect. But despite what people keep saying those guys aren't respected anymore either. They're just not hated as much because they weren't that good.
eudaimon - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 05:16 PM EST (#317687) #
Jeez, I think people voting on that fangraphs polls are being a bit harsh. Sure, Rogers ain't great but over 50% as "pretty bad" or "very bad"?

Rogers to me seems like the very definition of average. They allow for a somewhat above average Payroll (10 of 30 last year, so better than 20 and one that makes fielding a competitive team at least possible), they hire decent people (AA and Shapiro are at least competent, unlike some other MLB GMs), and can be counted on to keep the team in Toronto (I miss the Expos).

There no reason to jump for joy and praise Rogers, but there are much worse potential owners. Calling them "very bad" or even "pretty bad" is insulting to any fan who actually has a bad owner. It's like getting an iPhone 4s for Christmas and being mad you didn't get an iPhone 6. Meanwhile, Philly fans have Ruben Amaro as their GM for over half a decade, and 66% of teams aren't willing to or can't spend more money on their team than you.

As for AA, my dream is that the Expos come back hire and Anthopolous as the GM in a few year. He is a Montreal boy, after all.

whiterasta80 - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 05:16 PM EST (#317688) #
And then right around the start of February we start talking about who should be in the starting rotation, weird huh?
eudaimon - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 05:23 PM EST (#317689) #
As for the HOF, Bonds and Clemens should get in. In 75 years people will look back on that era (and their stats) with fascination. It's part of the story of baseball. Steroids should be mentioned as part of that story without a doubt but I'm no fan of whitewashing history. Keeping them out of the hall would be like leaving segregationists out of the history books. It encourages a convenient but factually inaccurate version of the story. Like it or not, the 90s and early 2000s were defined by steroid use.
jerjapan - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 06:15 PM EST (#317690) #
Jeez, I think people voting on that fangraphs polls are being a bit harsh. Sure, Rogers ain't great but over 50% as "pretty bad" or "very bad"?

What makes good ownership anyway?  I'd say commitment to winning, investment in fan experience and stability (including loyalty to the city).  But does this mean that George Steinbrenner was a good owner? 

Is it at all important who the owners are as people?  (Leaving aside obvious a*@h$%!s like Wilpon and Loria), David Glass owns the WS champion Royals, but until the past few years he was a notoriously cheap owner noted for advocating replacement players during the strike.  Peter Angelos owns the O's and is widely considered one of the worst owner in the game - but he made his money as a lawyer representing the little guy in class action lawsuits against lead paint companies and the asbestos industry.   The owners of Cleveland and Atlanta tolerate their racist logos and mascots, and John Henry, who has a great franchise in the Red Sox, made his money on hedge funds - hard to argue for a social conscience with that. 

I have to confess to having voted 'very bad' for Rogers but that's more a vote for very bad at the moment (the whole front office imbroglio) - overall, I'd lean towards pretty bad.  A lot of people argue that they spend well, but I hesitate to call them a 'top ten' payroll - according to Sportrac they were 10th, and the distance between them and 9th is great than the distance between them and 17th.

http://blog.surepayroll.com/2015-mlb-team-payrolls/

Rogers does have to wear that 'longest playoff drought in North American sports' result, and while I know that the tickets are relatively affordable (I think it was CDBC who pointed that out) I really don't like the Dome as a venue - it's too corporate, and I have been to enough other baseball venues to know that it doesn't have to be this way.  

In part, I think a lot of the dislike comes from the fact that they are corporate owners - one of only 4 corporate owners listed on wikipedia.

But at least they aren't gonna move the team.

Overall, MLB owners are almost all problematic to some extent.  I know this is 2.5 years old, but it's pretty interesting:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/04/matrix-major-league-baseball-owners-asshole
 
Dave Till - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 06:36 PM EST (#317691) #

Griffey, unfortunately, aged normally, if not rapidly robbing fans of potentially the greatest career in history while Bonds decided to take the easy way out- resulting in arguably the greatest career in history but with an asterisk bigger than his hat size.

Which reminds me of this article from The Onion: Nation To Ken Griffey Jr.: 'We Wish It Were You Hitting 756 Home Runs'

katman - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 10:12 PM EST (#317692) #
Instead of Rodney, how about Revere for Storen, and add $2.1M to payroll?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/01/nationals-rumors-trade-ben-revere-jays.html

CeeBee - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 10:29 PM EST (#317693) #
I like it.
PeterG - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 10:40 PM EST (#317694) #
deal done...Revere for Storen
Gerry - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 10:45 PM EST (#317695) #
New thread now open.
Richard S.S. - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 10:46 PM EST (#317696) #
WOW! They don't call it a Blockbuster, but it's big stuff for the New Guys.
John Northey - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 10:46 PM EST (#317697) #
Huh. Guess the new GM & President like Saunders & Pompey more than we knew.

Storen is only signed for 2016, then is a free agent. Had a FIP of 2.71 and 2.79 the past 2 years but his ERA went from 1.12 to 3.44. His K/9 climbed to 11 last year vs 2.6 BB/9. Solid closer but I never like reliever for everyday player trades. This could be an exception though as Revere is an extra piece with Saunders and Pompey around. It also frees up Osuna and/or Sanchez for the rotation or to make the pen very deep. A very good thing.

Depending how Storen does in 2016 the 2017 draft could be killer for the Jays as he, Bautista, Encarnacion, RA Dickey, Jesse Chavez, Saunders, Cecil, and Smoak are all free agents. Wow, this team could vanish after 2016.
Richard S.S. - Friday, January 08 2016 @ 10:52 PM EST (#317699) #
Gerry has an interesting Post up.
Fernando Rodney Experience Coming To Toronto? Maybe Yovani Gallardo? | 114 comments | Create New Account
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