Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
The Blue Jays have selected righthander Joe Biagini from the San Francisco Giants in the Rule 5 draft.


Joe Biagini hopes to become a teammate of Roberto Osuna in Toronto when 2016 rolls around. The two pitched against each other at Nat Bailey Stadium in Vancouver on August 2, 2012.



Joe Biagini gets ready to deliver a pitch for the Salem-Keizer Volcanoes against the Vancouver Canadians.

Joe Biagini was selected in the 26th round of the 2011 amateur draft by San Francisco after pitching for the University of California-Davis. He began his pro career the following season with the Augusta GreenJackets of the South Atlantic League where he lost all four of his decisions and posted an earned run average of 7.41. The lone bright spot was a seven-inning outing when he shutout Lexington on two hits and two walks while striking out four on May 28 but got a no-decision. His K rate per nine innings was a solid 9.5 but that was largely offset by a walk rate of 7.9.

Biagini was then sent to the Salem-Keizer Volcanoes in the Northwest League where he began to experience more success. After getting his feet wet with a couple of one-inning scoreless relief appearances, he put together a quality start against Vancouver July 5 in which he struck out nine over six innings but took the loss despite two earned runs on four hits and a walk. He followed that up with a 10-strikeout performance against Everett but he surrendered four runs over six frames to take the loss. The Menlo Park, California native made another appearance against Vancouver in August and it was a short one, coughing up a pair of first-inning runs before getting the hook. His mound opponent that day was Roberto Osuna, who was making his maiden voyage on a Canadian mound. It was not a great day for Osuna either as he was cuffed around for four runs over three innings in an eventual Vancouver victory. Biagini would finally get his first pro victory in his next outing against Spokane August 7 and would beat Spokane again 15 days later with six shutout frames of five-hit ball and eight strikeouts. The biggest difference for the 6-foot-4 hurler was chopping his walk rate by five while maintaining a K rate of 9.6. He ended his time with Salem-Keizer with a mark of 2-4 and a 4.47 ERA.

The 2013 season saw Biagini return to Augusta where he went 7-6 with a 5.03 ERA. His K rate fell to 7.5 while his walk rate checked in at 3.9. Highlights from that season include seven strikeouts over six shutout frames against Kannapolis April 21, seven blank innings versus in a win over Savannah May 17, nine whiffs over 6-2/3 innings of one-run ball against against Hickory May 29 and another nine-strikeout outing against Asheville in a seven-inning appearance of three-run ball July 22.

Biagini was promoted to San Jose in 2014 and went 10-9 with a 4.04 ERA. His K rate dipped slightly to 7.2 but the BB rate was chopped down to 3.2. He began the year with six shutout innings in Lancaster April 7, the first of 11 quality stars he had with the SJ Giants. He finished up strong in August with three straight quality outings, including a 10-strikeout effort against Modesto where he took the loss despite yielding a pair of runs over six frames.

The 2015 season put Biagini on the map by recording an ERA of 2.42 while winning 10 of 17 decisions with the Richmond Flying Squirrels of the Eastern League. In a quirk of the schedule, he never made an appearance against New Hampshire so his two appearances against Vancouver in 2012 remain the only time he has faced a Blue Jays affiliate. His hit rate fell to 7.7 per nine innings, nearly a decrease of two, and he cut down his walks to 2.3 per nine. The tradeoff was a downturn in his strikeout rate, which fell to 5.8. He put up 14 quality starts and started his campaign with six shutout innings against Altoona April 13. His longest outing was eight innings when he shutout Harrisburg on two hits and a walk while ringing up seven batters in a road victory June 16. He was sidelined in early August with a back injury but he finished up strong upon his return by posting three quality starts in which he limited the opposition to a run apiece over a combined 20 innings. He did a nice job of handcuffing left-handed hitters to a .194 batting average versus a .251 mark against righties.


Joe Biagini has a record of 29-30 with a 4.06 earned run average in his four-year minor league career.

Baseball America's Josh Norris had this to say about Biagini.
"He got a little love from one manager for his ability to work his FB/CB combo and ability to command the bottom part of the zone. The Giants have an excellent ability to turn unsexy prospects into major leaguers, so I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see him in the bay at some point."
Blue Jays general manager Ross Atkins on Biagini via The Toronto Star.
"He has a three pitch mix, fastball, curveball, changeup. He’s a guy that jumps a little bit more subjectively, than objectively, but still has a lot of interesting elements."
Biagini's fastball according to various reports is said to check in about 91-94 miles per hour. If that's not enough, he's also the subject of this unique video. Biagini has to stay on the Blue Jays' 25-man roster in 2016 or be offered back to San Francisco. There's also the possibility the two sides can work out a trade so Biagini can go back down to the minors for more seasoning. He will turn 26 on May 29.
Biagini Is A Blue Jay - Could Be A Smart Move | 189 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
China fan - Thursday, December 10 2015 @ 04:36 PM EST (#317028) #
MLB.com has already slotted in Biagini as number 17 (between Smoral and Dean) in their list of the top 30 Jays prospects.  I was initially skeptical about this guy, but Gerry and Dave Till have made a good point about how he could potentially boost his velocity as he converts from a starter to a reliever.  And, as Dave points out, with his background as a starter, he might be able to serve as the long man in the bullpen (especially if Chavez is not in the bullpen). 

Here are some excerpts from the MLB.com scouting report on Biagini:


Scouting Grades: Fastball: 60 | Curveball: 45 | Changeup: 50 | Control: 50 | Overall: 45

He lasted 26 rounds in the 2011 Draft, yet Biagini commanded a $175,000 bonus after boosting his stock in the Cape Cod League that summer. San Francisco didn't get much of an early return on its investment as he posted a 4.73 ERA in his first three pro seasons, but he had a breakthrough season in Double-A in 2015. During the offseason, Biagini was selected by the Blue Jays in the Major League phase of the Rule 5 Draft.

Biagini has a plus fastball that usually operates from 91-94 mph and can hit 96. He trusts his changeup more than his curveball, though the latter shows flashes of becoming an average third offering with some depth.

Biagini has improved his control significantly during the last two years, enhancing his chances of becoming a back-of-the-rotation starter. He doesn't miss a lot of bats because he doesn't have a standout second offering or sharp command, so he might be best as a middle reliever who might pitch in the mid 90s in short stints.

PeterG - Thursday, December 10 2015 @ 05:24 PM EST (#317034) #
I think this could be the case, improvement as a reliever that is. I would like to see the Jays do the same thing with Taylor Cole but due to the almost desperate need of starting pitching in AAA and AA, I doubt that will happen.
christaylor - Thursday, December 10 2015 @ 05:28 PM EST (#317035) #
Balbino Fuenmayor -- now that's a name that takes one back to darker days.
hypobole - Thursday, December 10 2015 @ 05:35 PM EST (#317038) #
As uo (I believe) predicted, a rather underwhelming winter meetings from the Jays, unless you're a huge Darwin Barney fan.

Well, at least Shapiro didn't trade Pillar, Alford and Vladdy jr. for Shelby Miller; that's a good thing.


Thanks to everyone on the Biagini info, maybe this pick does have a chance of working out.
scottt - Thursday, December 10 2015 @ 05:54 PM EST (#317039) #
Fuenmayor was also available on the draft.
Richard S.S. - Thursday, December 10 2015 @ 05:58 PM EST (#317040) #
Someone with stats like that in AA should be able to be a serviceable Reliever at the MLB level. If he can't, he won't make it at all.

So the Top Three, Osuna, Sanchez and Cecil are joined by Chavez and probably Biagini. It depends on who else is acquired, before we consider anyone else in last year's Bullpen.
scottt - Thursday, December 10 2015 @ 06:20 PM EST (#317041) #
The Jays could only take a pitcher. I still don't like the depth at 3B, but that's probably why they were looking at  Chris Davis.

A big pitcher who's durable. Who can get some outs. And take the ball.
A plus fastball and 2 secondary pitches that can still be worked on out of the pen.
That's alright.

The Rockies picked Perdomo 4th but then traded him to the Padres for cash.
That leaves the Padres with 3 Rule V picks including a lefty reliever from Cleveland named Josh Martin.


Most of the pitchers selected last year made the opening day roster of a team and ended up with ERAs around 4 to 5.5.


jerjapan - Thursday, December 10 2015 @ 06:32 PM EST (#317044) #
I like the Biagini pick, he's the kind of guy who can stick IMO - big frame, decent heat, improving control - love the idea of a velo spike in the pen.  

we still have 3 spots on the 40 man once Barney is official, and I'm pretty happy we didn't lose Burns or smith.  we do need to going on the minors though, surprised we haven't made many waiver pick ups or minor league signings.   

Balbino had a pretty crazy 2015 - a .972 OPS after washing out of affliliated ball and ending up in Quebec of all places.  Not a fit for us, but worthy of a flier for someone. 
Richard S.S. - Thursday, December 10 2015 @ 07:56 PM EST (#317052) #
When the Sportsnet Guys were wrapping the Winter Games and announcing this pick, they said the Jays were involved in a Trade as well as negotiating with two or three Free Agents. They also said news was expected soon, but definitely before the Holidays.
PeterG - Thursday, December 10 2015 @ 09:01 PM EST (#317054) #
I believe Chavez will be a starter if all goes according to plan. There might be some chance that Sanchez is in rotation but I doubt it for this season. I think Hutch will be in pen to begin the season or in Buffalo, more likely the latter. One of the brain trust was just saying today to a reporter that Hutch had been brought to majors too quickly (which is correct) and never had developmental time in AAA. Perhaps a hint at current intention I would think. Of course, there are variables that could change any of this such as injuries (hopefully not) or whom else is acquired.
SK in NJ - Thursday, December 10 2015 @ 09:43 PM EST (#317055) #
With Hutchison, I think he's either in the big league rotation or AAA rotation. He's not a reliever, and since he has options left, it only makes sense to keep him stretched out in AAA in case of need.
Lylemcr - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 02:55 AM EST (#317056) #
Chavez is #6.

Hutch has to lose the position to him IMO.
Glevin - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 04:54 AM EST (#317057) #
Not too excited about this but then again, rule V picks are rarely exciting. Very low risk obviously though. These are the kinds of moves that generally are scouting department moves rather than GM moves so I assume the Jays scouts see something in Biagini.
Jevant - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 08:01 AM EST (#317062) #
There's literally no downside to this move, and if it pans out in any way to be a capable BP arm, a nice and tidy piece of work for the Jays.

Curious to see what's next. I still feel as if a trade with someone (quite possibly Cleveland) is coming in the not too distant future. Simply can't see them going into the offseason with all 3 LF options in the organization, and I wouldn't even be that surprised if it was something larger (Tulowitzki being traded wouldn't shock me).
Glevin - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 09:23 AM EST (#317064) #
"Curious to see what's next. I still feel as if a trade with someone (quite possibly Cleveland) is coming in the not too distant future. Simply can't see them going into the offseason with all 3 LF options in the organization, and I wouldn't even be that surprised if it was something larger (Tulowitzki being traded wouldn't shock me)."

Travis being hurt makes Tulo being traded less likely though. Goins would be OK as a #9 hitter/SS until you develop/sign a better one but you can't have Goins and Barney both in the lineup on a regular basis and maintain an elite offense. Tulowiztki is not a player who is likely to age well and even when he is playing well (which he didn't last year) he is extremely injury prone. He hasn't played 130 games in a season since 2011. Those sorts of things very rarely get better as you get older (and move to turf). As with all potential deals, it depends on what you'd get for him.

Trade with Cleveland is harder to see for me because I don't think Shapiro wants to give up what he would have to get one of their starters. Cubs seem like a much better fit than the Jays as they have guys like Soler/Baez who are expendable and are ML ready.
hypobole - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 09:58 AM EST (#317066) #
I was thinking Jevant was suggesting trading one of our surplus LF guys for relief pitching, (maybe someone Shap/Atkins are higher on than Chernoff/Antonetti?).
Mike Green - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 10:24 AM EST (#317067) #
Happy birthday to Dalton Pompey, Willie Canate, Derek Bell and Adam Peterson, Blue Jays present and past.  Old Hoss Radbourn would be 135 today.  That's a really old hoss.
Jonny German - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 10:32 AM EST (#317068) #
Barney signing is official, 1 year $1.05M. Waste of a roster spot. What useful role does he serve when all 3 of Tulo, Goins, and Travis are healthy?
Parker - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 10:36 AM EST (#317069) #
What useful role does he serve when all 3 of Tulo, Goins, and Travis are healthy?

This has never been the case, though, at least not while they've been Jays property. Maybe the Jays are more worried about Travis's shoulder than they're letting on.
SK in NJ - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 10:52 AM EST (#317070) #
Tulo will need frequent days off and Travis is an injury concern. Goins is not enough depth in the IF position.

At this point they could platoon Goins with Barney at 2B until Travis returns. After that, they'll have to do some roster shuffling. They are either very concerned about Travis' injury or just want to cover their tracks in case he's out longer than expected.

Depth is not a bad thing.
Mike Green - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 10:54 AM EST (#317071) #
In wholly unrelated news, Rogers TV ratings for the NHL and the Leafs are sharply down.   The theme line for today is: "stockbroker makes a bad investment when love has come to town". 
Dave Till - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 10:55 AM EST (#317072) #
If Barney is on the roster, Gibbons can pinch-hit for Goins in the late innings.
Mike Green - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 11:08 AM EST (#317073) #
With Travis likely out until June (given a rehab stint), Barney will probably platoon with Goins.  The Jays don't face too many LH starters but it still doesn't hurt to have someone ready to start.
Parker - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 11:16 AM EST (#317074) #
Barney hit 304/333/609 for the Jays.

I'm kind of surprised some posters don't already have him penciled in for at least 4 WAR in 2016.
hypobole - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 11:21 AM EST (#317075) #
With our starting staff, having another elite defender is pretty important as well. I like the Barney signing, especially compared to someone like Izturis when he was signed.
Parker - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 11:25 AM EST (#317076) #
The above comment was meant to be light-hearted; no offense intended to anyone.

Seriously though, I do like the Barney signing. He's a tremendous asset defensively and he's a big upgrade over the Jays other Plan C middle infielders - if any of the Diazes and Kawasakis are even returning for 2016. Now the Jays won't have to scramble to find someone if their luck is bad enough to be down two starting middle infielders.

At the very least, he should provide better value than Maicer Izturis did.
Parker - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 11:26 AM EST (#317077) #
Heh, looks like I owe you a Coke, hypobole. Way to beat me to the draw (by a measely four minutes!)
Jonny German - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 11:44 AM EST (#317078) #
The pro-Barney arguments are ignoring the constraints of a 25-man major league roster. Barney would be fine for depth IF he was on a minor league contract. He's not, which means he causes headaches as soon as Travis comes off the DL. Who goes to the minors to make room? Travis himself? Goins? Colabello? All bad answers because they're all much better players than Barney.
hypobole - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 11:48 AM EST (#317079) #
Parker, let's call it even. The chuckle I got from your Barney 4 WAR post was definitely worth a Coke.
Jonny German - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 11:50 AM EST (#317080) #
Barney himself is the very definition of freely available talent, the type of guy you can bring in when you find yourself needing some insurance due to injuries. Anyone recall wha the Jays gave up to get him from the Dodgers? Yeah, it was a 27-year-old catcher fighting to keep his OPS north of .600 in AA.
Parker - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 11:58 AM EST (#317081) #
So assuming Colabello continues to be a much better player than Barney, the Jays assign Barney himself to the minors, and if he's lost on waivers, no big deal - he did his job of providing middle infield depth until the return of Travis. If he passes through waivers, he costs the team $500k, and that assumes they don't need him again the rest of the season. I don't know what the big deal is - is he going to get in the way of the Jays carrying a nine-man bullpen or something?
Mike Green - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 12:02 PM EST (#317082) #
I don't agree that Barney is "freely available talent".  He's a classic reserve player given his defensive abilities and platoon splits.  The Dodgers gave him up in September, and he was available in an exchange of reserve depth because he was not eligible for the playoffs.  The Dodgers wouldn't have gotten much for him in any event, but he's a reserve player being paid a reserve salary.  He's a little better than Jonathan Diaz.  It does seem that Gibbons didn't have much confidence in Diaz, and with Travis' injury, it makes sense to have a middle infield backup on hand who the manager trusts. 
Jonny German - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 12:18 PM EST (#317083) #
Parker makes a very good point. Punting Barney when Travis is healthy would be very reasonable. I'll stop complaining until the day for that decision comes.
SK in NJ - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 12:34 PM EST (#317085) #
Don't know if this was posted, but great article by Lott explaining the situation the Jays face.

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/mlb/winter-of-discontent-skyrocketing-salaries-harsh-exchange-rate-making-life-tough-for-toronto-blue-jays
uglyone - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 12:43 PM EST (#317088) #
this exchange rate BS is infuriating, to be honest.
John Northey - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 12:49 PM EST (#317089) #
Barney at $1 mil seems perfectly reasonable to me. Minimum ML wage is just over $500k so $1 mil is fairly cheap for a 1/2 decent backup. Basically he is a right handed Goins. I see longer term him and Goins ending up as OF backups as well as IF backups. So...
CA: Martin & whoever
1B: Smoak/Colabello
2B: Travis
3B: Donaldson
SS: Tulo
LF: Revere
CF: Pillar
RF: Bautista
DH: Encarnacion
bench: Goins/Barney/Colabello/backup catcher with 7 man pen. Or Barney or Goins going to AAA to allow a 4th OF (Carrera most likely allowing Pompey to play everyday knowing he's taking over RF next year most likely). I'm assuming Saunders is injured most of 2016 or if he makes the team in one piece Revere is traded.
uglyone - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 12:58 PM EST (#317090) #
"I'm kind of surprised some posters don't already have him penciled in for at least 4 WAR in 2016."

you joke, but the numbers love this guy's defense. The defensive stats have made him a legit starting-quality player for most of his career - and he's been used as a starter for most of his career so hasn't inflated his stats in a protected role.

Barney has averaged 1.9fwar and 2.6bwar per 650pa in his career.

And this has been a consistent pace, aside from one awful year:

2010 (24): 85pa, 57wrc+, 3.8fwar, 3.8bwar/650
2011 (25): 571pa, 79wrc+, 1.8fwar, 1.9bwar/650
2012 (26): 588pa, 75wrc+, 2.8fwar, 5.1bwar/650
2013 (27): 555pa, 54wrc+, 0.2fwar, -0.5bwar/650
2014 (28): 262pa, 79wrc+, 3.0fwar, 4.2bwar/650
2015 (29): 30pa, 121wrc+, 2.2fwar, 4.3bwar/650

he can't hit a lick but both defensive metrics love the hell out of him.

or at least they did - in his tiny samlle with the jays last year the metrics hated him, and that passes my eye test. If he's slipped significantly defensively, his value is nothing.

But I'm not going to hold his bad couple weeks with the jays against him.
uglyone - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 01:01 PM EST (#317091) #
"There's literally no downside to this move, "

well there can be a downside in giving a shot to a guy like Biagini because you'll likely see him get a shot even if he doesn't earn it in the spring, which could hurt the team and even cost them a better player lost on waivers. I'm thinking of when we kept letting guys like rogers and jeffress burn us because we didn't want to risk waiving them.
jerjapan - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 01:04 PM EST (#317092) #
From Shapiro is SK's article:

“If we have a great year this year, that’s certainly going to afford us the ability to grow player payroll and player expenses.”

Does he believe this, or more spin?  He's certainly aware that this has been promised and not delivered recently. 

Rogers does have strategies for managing the exchange rate but it remains a legit problem for the Jays.  Stating payroll is on the way up, as the team has done, seems disingenuous if the raises simply mitigate the exchange rate.

BTW, I know that Beeston made the same false promise, and that corporate speak is banal on purpose.  That doesn't make it sting less that the Yanks and Sox continue to improve and the Jays seems fine with letting EE test the FA waters.  I would let him walk myself, but it would be nice if the FO was talking his value up rather than saying we need to sign our minor league FAs first.
uglyone - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 01:13 PM EST (#317093) #
personally I'm still hoping Smoak is moved, and Gibbons' comments about Cola being used in more of a fulltime role were very encouraging.

with smoak gone it gives us some more bench flexibility, and potentially allows us to give Joey/Tulo some time at 1B/DH while we improve defensive with midseason injections of pompey and travis.
uglyone - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 01:15 PM EST (#317094) #
"“If we have a great year this year, that’s certainly going to afford us the ability to grow player payroll and player expenses.”"

I'm trying my best not to talk about Shatkins, jer. please stop baiting me.

(but man can't he just speak english?)
Post a Comment
uglyone - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 01:24 PM EST (#317096) #
Cubs get Heyward. Money unknown.

Cubs not looking like a homegrown team anymore.

Bryant
Schwarber
Soler
Baez
Alcantar
Sczur

everyone else from outside the org.
uglyone - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 01:43 PM EST (#317097) #
6yrs x $32m for Heyward.

Cubs paying $101m to their 5 most expensive players, most longterm, 4 over the age of 32.

Different strokes.
Mike Green - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 01:57 PM EST (#317099) #
The Cubs were projected at $141m before this acquisition.  It was only the end of 2014 when they traded for Addison Russell and Billy McKinney in the Samardzija deal to acquire more youthful low-cost talent.  Anyways, they look like a great club.
Vulg - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 02:00 PM EST (#317100) #
everyone else from outside the org.

Well, they're close and it's winning time. That comes with investment and some risk.

Unless you're Rogers and Shatkins - apparently being close is the perfect time to show restraint. Shapiro's quote about building revenue to justify higher expenses is the same message the previous regime had about the fanbase proving it'd support a winner and the money following. I call BS, we've seen how that plays out and the proof is in their financial reports; the one constant in the equation (i.e. ownership) has not changed.

Great quote from Stark today on what Epstein and Hoyer are doing in Chicago:

"Theo Epstein & Jed Hoyer lived through Red Sox-Yankees. They understand they haven't just added Jason Heyward & John Lackey. They also subtracted them from the Cardinals."

He could have added the Jays given what happened with Price this offseason. Either way, you have to admire Epstein's aggressiveness, which must come with the confidence that he could move an asset the other direction too if needed (i.e. convert a star talent to prospects when it's time to reload).

In contrast, Shatkins is playing scared. The most telling thing that came out of the winter meetings this week wasn't that they land a moderately priced FA - I've resigned myself to Rogers' choosing NOW to go cheap. No, it was being a "close second" to Petit, who signed for $3M with the Nats. Really? Shatkins targeted him, clearly they liked him... but this was viable only at $3M? Was there too much risk at $4M? Not enough "shared risk" by giving him a 2nd year?

Incidentally, I love that term and have started using it at home.
SK in NJ - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 02:14 PM EST (#317101) #
The Cubs have not subtracted anything from their prospect base, nor is their roster old by any stretch of the imagination. It's pretty much the perfect roster as far as building from within and using free agency to supplement it.

The only way this would be comparable to the Jays is if Donaldson, Bautista, Encarnacion, and Tulo were all in their early to mid-20's. The oldest core position player on the Cubs between Rizzo, Russell, Bryant, Heyward, Soler (possible trade bait now), Schwarber, Baez, etc, is 26. Most are between 22-24. They have years of pre-FA service time remaining. They have young assets with huge surplus value, an entire minor league system that hasn't been touched in order to add talent, depth in the pitching department, etc. They are very, very good, and will be for a long time. This isn't a hail mary to win over the next two years. They'll be fine long-term.

Rumor is they are dangling Soler for another starter (possibly one of Cleveland's). The Cubs are an organization that knows what it is doing. The day the Jays become that well run is when no one here will have a single negative comment to make.
SK in NJ - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 02:23 PM EST (#317102) #
"Rogers does have strategies for managing the exchange rate but it remains a legit problem for the Jays. Stating payroll is on the way up, as the team has done, seems disingenuous if the raises simply mitigate the exchange rate."

That article illustrates the issue with not only being owned by Rogers but being owned by a corporate entity in general. It's never about winning. It's the reason I have been harping about building from within and long-term sustainability. Rogers looks at bottom line. The only way to avoid dealing with that type of ownership is to not need them in order to win. That's going to require drafting, developing, and/or trading for young/cheap talent that can provide surplus value over a long period of time. Easier said than done obviously, but that should be the goal. The sad part is, I think AA's regime could have accomplished that if the winter of 2012 never happened, and the one thing AA was very good at (for better or worse) was taking risks. The current regime is very risk-averse, likely by design, which puts more pressure on drafting and trading.

The Rogers issue will never go away.
dalimon5 - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 02:27 PM EST (#317103) #
If this is all Shapiro does until the season starts, i'll be disappointed. I fully expect them to add a #2 starter or 1-2 strong relief arms if they move Sanchez into the rotation, confident he can succeed there with his secondary pitches.

I'd trade for Bauer/Salazar/Matt Moore (offer from Hutch/Travis/Pillar/Pompey. If that doesn't work I'd trade the farm for an ace like Fernandez.

Offers
Bauer for Revere and B prospect
Matt Moore for Travis or Pompey
Salazar for Pompey, Hutchison
Carrasco for Pillar, Alford, Hutchison, Greene
Fernandez for Alford, Hutchison, Greene, Reid-Foley, Pentacost...maybe we don't have the package for that type of pitcher

I definitely liked that we didn't devote expenses to aging free agent players, but that's with the caveat that they improve the team in trades.

Exchange rate, escalating pitching prices...too bad, Shapiro needs to find a solution to improve the team for the post season.
dalimon5 - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 02:30 PM EST (#317104) #
SK you make some very good points on the 2012 trade and where the Jays might be now had it not happened. Then again, what do they do if Lackey/Heyward/Lester don't want to come to Toronto? Then you're like the Mets but playing in a much harder division.
James W - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 02:46 PM EST (#317105) #
The latest update says 8yrs x $23M for Heyward (https://twitter.com/BNightengale/status/675398590701789184)
Mike Green - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 03:16 PM EST (#317106) #
There are apparently two opt-outs in the Heyward deal- one after three years, and one later on.  It's hard to imagine how this can't be a good deal for the Cubs- $23 million for a player of this ability and age seems low to me given the market. 
ComebyDeanChance - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 03:23 PM EST (#317107) #
The Rogers issue will never go away.

Let's hope you're right. If Rogers hadn't bought the team, the next stop was the US or contraction. Interbrew had this franchise on the market for years, The talk at the time was relocation or contraction. The reason Rogers owns this franchise is because no one else in Canada wanted it. Plain and simple. Rogers kept the Blue Jays in Toronto.
jerjapan - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 03:28 PM EST (#317108) #
Fangraphs crunched the numbers on the value of a player opt-out to the player for the Price deal, and got 10 million - but I agree Mike, still good value for Heyward.  The Cubs are stacked. 

Dalimon, I hope you are right but both Shapiro and Atkins keep talking about the heavy lifting being finished.  My guess is a relief arm or two and some minor league FAs.

Right approach or not, this offseason is the least exciting since JPR.

JB21 - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 03:58 PM EST (#317109) #
It's actually the least exciting since the one before last.
Mike Green - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 04:15 PM EST (#317111) #
Chris Mitchel and KATOH like the O's selection of Joey Rickard in the Rule 5 draft. He's a good defensive left-fielder who gets on base and can scoot.  I agree with Mitchell.
85bluejay - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 04:19 PM EST (#317112) #
Now that the Cardinals have lost Heyward, they should aggressively trade for & extend Jose Bautista - it's a great fit.
Glevin - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 04:28 PM EST (#317113) #
About what I'd expect for Heyward especially if the Cubs front loaded the contract. Two opt outs is weird but it seems like the way the market is going. (Up next, ability to opt out every single year of contract) The market just doesn't value defense the way it does offended especially at non elite positions. I think the Cubs will look to trade Soler Ina package for another starter and put Heyward back in right. Cubs look like an amazing team right now but of course, so did the Nationals last year and they collapsed. Still, the Cubs are set up very well for the future. Amazing young offensive core with depth to trade and some very good pitching.
JB21 - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 04:30 PM EST (#317114) #
Why would the Cubs front load the contact and give opt outs? That doesn't make sense to me.
grjas - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 04:35 PM EST (#317115) #
No, it was being a "close second" to Petit, who signed for $3M with the Nats. Really? Shatkins targeted him, clearly they liked him... but this was viable only at $3M? Was there too much risk at $4M? Not enough "shared risk" by giving him a 2nd year?

Not sure why some posters are crapping on the front office re Petit. They were certainly taking a risk offering him two years vs one and many players would have preferred their approach. We have no idea why he took the other offer; he certainly wouldn't be the first player to turn down the Jays for a variety of non-financial reasons, so it's unfair to conclude they blew the negotiation without any more facts.

No idea how this regime is going to do. But let's not dump on them every time they open their mouth.
JB21 - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 04:45 PM EST (#317116) #
Apparently the Jays were prepared to go 2 years + an option, and then he signed for one year.

https://twitter.com/bnicholsonsmith/status/674835934387576832

Jey Hey was apparently offered more from the Cards than the Cubs. So, remember this when complaining that we should've signed every solid value FA out there.
SK in NJ - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 06:02 PM EST (#317117) #
I was going to mention that as well. The Nationals and the Cardinals both offered $200M contracts but Heyward took less to go to Chicago. Free agency is a dangerous game. Nothing is ever equal. Different players want different things. So next time a free agent signs a nice deal with some other team, just keep in mind that it doesn't mean the Jays had a chance.
greenfrog - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 06:19 PM EST (#317118) #
Per Keith Law on twitter:

Before everyone gets wrapped up in "Heyward took less money!" 1) the opt-outs are worth millions + 2) IL state taxes are lower than DC/MO
1:35 PM - 11 Dec 2015


To which I would add, the Cubs are a really, really good team that is likely to stay good for a while. Add it all up, and it was no doubt a very compelling offer by the Cubs.
uglyone - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 06:26 PM EST (#317119) #
Here's how the "best group of young talent in baseball" has compared to our "gutted youth jays", on the field, for the record.

Pitcher WAR = average of fipwar and ra9war
Hitter WAR = average of fwar and bwar

Last 2yrs:


3B Bryant (24): 650pa, 136wrc+, 6.2war/650pa
1B Rizzo (26): 1317pa, 150wrc+, 5.6war/650pa
LF Schwarber (23): 273pa, 131wrc+, 4.5war/650pa
SS Russell (22): 523pa, 90wrc+, 3.9war/650pa
SP Hendricks (26): 45gs, 91era-, 3.3war/32gs
RF Soler (24): 501pa, 106wrc+, 1.1war/650pa
2B Baez (23): 309pa, 65wrc+, -0.8war/650pa

2B Travis (25): 228pa, 135wrc+, 6.4war/650pa
SP Stroman (25): 24gs, 77era-, 4.9war/32gs
CF Pillar (27): 750pa, 93wrc+, 4.8war/650pa
CF Pompey (23): 146pa, 88wrc+, 2.5war/650
SP Sanchez (23): 11gs, 87era-, 1.9war/32gs / RP Sanchez (23): 59.1ip, 42era-, 1.7war/65ip
RP Osuna (21): 69.2ip, 63era-, 1.5war/65ip
SP Hutchison (25): 60gs, 124era-, 1.3war/32gs

too bad Osuna hasn't been given a chance to start. I bet he'd look even more valuable there.
greenfrog - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 07:00 PM EST (#317120) #
So, uglyone, I take it you would turn down a Bryant-for-Travis trade offer?
uglyone - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 07:33 PM EST (#317121) #
all i'll say is it is interesting how much Bryant's value last year depended on a crazy high .378 babip and crazy high small sample defensive stats that the scouting reports would never have predicted.

Parker - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 07:35 PM EST (#317122) #
If I'm every American League GM I'm looking at the Cubs organization right now and thinking, "Holy cow, I gotta find a way to beat THAT?"

It's gonna be the rest of MLB's worst nightmare - the Tampa Bay Rays with a $200M payroll.
uglyone - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 07:37 PM EST (#317123) #
all i'll say is it is interesting how much Bryant's value last year depended on a crazy high .378 babip and crazy high small sample defensive stats that the scouting reports would never have predicted.

John Northey - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 09:07 PM EST (#317124) #
I suspect most of the AL is going 'thank god the Cubs are in the NL'. Only one AL team has to worry about beating them and that is in a best of 7 crapshoot, assuming the Cubs get there (they haven't since the year Hitler died).
scottt - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 10:12 PM EST (#317125) #
They front load and give opt outs so that the free agents sign.
It makes perfect sense to me. You want them to opt out. They want the guaranteed money. It's a gamble.

scottt - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 10:22 PM EST (#317126) #
I'm a little less skeptical about Biagini as I learn more about him -- he does seem to be worth taking a chance on, although I still think he is a longshot.

He reminds me of a another starter an inch shorter than the Jays used in the pen. He averaged only 5.2K/9 and walked 3.6/9 but managed an ERA of 2.78 in low leverage situation.

Ring any bell? He was 29 by the time he got his shot here and instead of making video about himself he simply wrote the stuff down.
SK in NJ - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 10:28 PM EST (#317127) #
Yeah, the Cubs know that Heyward's best seasons over the next 8 years will most likely be the first 3 years of his new contract given his age and skillset. Paying more for him from ages 26-28 before he opts out has very little risk for the Cubs unless he turns into BJ Upton. So Heyward gets the security of knowing that if he bombs for whatever reason that he'll still have the extra 5 years available to him should he choose not to opt out, and the Cubs take a pretty calculated risk in terms of paying Heyward more for his prime years and then living with the consequences of him opting out of big money at ages 29-33.

That's the price you pay for getting free agents, but the risk with the Cubbies is pretty small. Like I said, Heyward would have to really tank badly to not opt out after 3 years.
TangledUpInBlue - Friday, December 11 2015 @ 10:38 PM EST (#317128) #
That article illustrates the issue with not only being owned by Rogers but being owned by a corporate entity in general.

The good thing about corporate ownership is they have to concern themselves with public image. If they're getting bad publicity for their handling of the Blue Jays, there are repercussions to their brand, something that the Jeffrey Lorias and Harold Ballards of the world don't have to concern themselves with. So you're unlikely to get really bad ownership.

It's also why I'm all for making Rogers front and centre in any criticism for this off-season. Make them take the heat for bungling the Anthopoulos situation and for not increasing the payroll. Bob McCown, from what little I've listened to him of late, is being ridiculously unfair to Shapiro and Atkins, but he's at least taking Rogers to task as well. I can imagine Rogers execs listening to some of this and feeling pretty uncomfortable.
jerjapan - Saturday, December 12 2015 @ 01:42 AM EST (#317129) #
1000% agree tangled.

Also, good choice in Dylan tunes
Vulg - Saturday, December 12 2015 @ 01:50 AM EST (#317130) #
It's also why I'm all for making Rogers front and centre in any criticism for this off-season. Make them take the heat for bungling the Anthopoulos situation and for not increasing the payroll. Bob McCown, from what little I've listened to him of late, is being ridiculously unfair to Shapiro and Atkins, but he's at least taking Rogers to task as well. I can imagine Rogers execs listening to some of this and feeling pretty uncomfortable.

I'm not sure about that. From what I hear, it is Rogers who is most often in Bob's crosshairs. He's mildly unimpressed with Shatkins and how they performed in Cleveland, but the actual baseball folks are more of a non-entity for him - to borrow his vernacular, "they're just guys".

Prime Time Sports' round table was very interesting tonight (Friday). Overall, I'd say it was balanced, with comments like "imagine Interbrew were still the owners" and "who else in Canada would sign these checks" sprinkled in with criticsm. Bob himself outlines the realities of being owned by a publicly traded copmany (has been echoed here), but then goes into detail on his "real issue with Rogers", which is a lack of understanding of what he refers to as "investment spending".

It's pretty good stuff if you have a moment to listen to the recording. If you're interested in the 'why a corporation spends they way it does' response, it starts at around 18:17 (on the site look for the December 11th show under the Podcasts section).

If you're interested in his actual criticism of Rogers' lack of imagination, skip to around 23:30 (though the conversation in between is pretty good too). Ironically, his monologue has plenty of praise for Ted Rogers, who he calls the "King of investment spending" and portrays him as somebody who understood how to build, rather than maintain, a business. But then again, at several points during the podcast he also refers to the realities of being owned by a corporation that simply expects X amount of profit from each division and doesn't believe in loss-leaders or incurring a loss (or breaking even for that matter) for brand purposes.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/

Solid show overall, until they start getting into the stupid Steve Stamkos "story" about him liking a Maple Leafs tweet ...
jerjapan - Saturday, December 12 2015 @ 02:24 AM EST (#317131) #
Spot on vulg.

I really don't mean to be disrespectful with my comments, tonight or this offseason generally, but theres a weird love for corporate indifference going on right now.

Yes, its sports. Yes, we live in a capitalist society. But why do people act as if the intelligent POV is the one that pays attention to corporate interests? Rogers corporate indifference is disgusting. Not because I, jerfan, am being disrespected.

But rather this concept, the inevitable logic of capitalism, is repulsive.

Sorry for being Marxist. I promise to return to
Conventional sporting logic tomorrow.
bps - Saturday, December 12 2015 @ 02:43 AM EST (#317132) #
Rogers bought the Jays, MLSE, NHL and Olympic TV rights. The company doesn't seem specifically adverse to spending money on sport related items which it presumably believes will lead to popular programming. They must feel there is a better or a least more predictable return elsewhere.

If not spending on major additions now allows a real attempt to keep EE and Bautista (or appropriate replacements) then I am okay with it. Keeping this offense together for a few more years seems the most likely path to maintaining a competitive team for more than the coming season.
TangledUpInBlue - Saturday, December 12 2015 @ 03:59 AM EST (#317133) #
Rogers corporate indifference is disgusting.... this concept, the inevitable logic of capitalism is repulsive...

The "inevitable logic of capitalism," quite apart from "corporate indifference," is that you'd better serve your customers. Hence the argument, which you agreed with 1000%, that criticism of Rogers at least has a chance of influencing the direction of the team. (Try criticizing the rich and powerful in a "Marxist" regime, by the way, and see how it works out; you might be able to put those adjectives I quoted to better use.)
scottt - Saturday, December 12 2015 @ 05:25 AM EST (#317134) #
Shared risks.

The cost of advertising during sporting event is going up because people like to watch that live and skip the ads on everything else.
Dewey - Saturday, December 12 2015 @ 11:40 AM EST (#317139) #
The "inevitable logic of capitalism," quite apart from "corporate indifference," is that you'd better serve your customers. 

Amazing post, TUIB!  But also puzzling, as I couldn’t see any signs of a sarcasm font being used.  Rogers doesn’t give a sweet damn about its customers, except insofar as they impinge upon its bottom line.  It cares a lot more about shareholders, people who give them money to work with.  Anyone who’s dealt with Rogers ‘Customer Relations’ people knows this in their bones.  Rogers’ handling of this entire offseason to date is prima facie evidence of their indifference to their customers.  They don’t have a clue with regard to ‘customer relations’.  Not a clue.
jerjapan - Saturday, December 12 2015 @ 01:33 PM EST (#317143) #
you'd better serve your customers

Ah the old 'invisible hand'. about as real as those marxist regimes you are talking about :) 

Dewey, worth pointing out that I agree with you 1000% as well - a rare occurence, so worth celebrating :)

BPS - at this point, I think EE is gone.  i want to believe that Jose will be back - to me it makes sense to him, the team (he can DH and play OF part-time), our contract situation, the fans and rogers - but i hear everything shapiro says as a warning that we are going to cut payroll and try to squeak into the wildcard rather than win the division.  man do i ever hope im wrong!


Richard S.S. - Saturday, December 12 2015 @ 03:07 PM EST (#317146) #
Jays TRADE for Jose Bautista and get because basically no one else wanted him - too bad everyone else. Jays TRADE for Edwin Encarnacion and get because basically no one else wanted him - too bad everyone else. Jays TRADE for Josh Donaldson and get because basically he would get extremely expensive - oops. Jays sign Russell Martin and everyone complains about cost and term - well duh. Jays TRADE for Troy Tulowitzki and get because basically they didn't want him anymore - too bad everyone else.

Anyone one figure out the lesson here? Trades will get you anyone if you meet the price. Even if you offer a lot more money and a lot more term, you're still not always getting who you want.
Richard S.S. - Saturday, December 12 2015 @ 03:25 PM EST (#317148) #
Steven Brunt is to have said the Jays have about $160.0 Million to spend. With everything calculated out, Guaranteed Salaries plus Pre-Arb Salaries plus Arb-eligible Salaries estimates, the Jays have about $29.0 Million left.

They need another Starter, preferably a number two Starter. They need a top quality LHP for the Bullpen, as Gibbons wanted. If Sanchez is in the Rotation, they must find a top quality RHP to replace him. They still need another quality arm in the Bullpen, even if Sanchez is not in the Rotation. They need more depth of real MLB-quality pitchers. They need serious money for the Trade Deadline to get what's needed because they'll be good enough to need it. And unless they get bargains, there's not enough money with this and future markets to do it all.
jensan - Saturday, December 12 2015 @ 09:31 PM EST (#317152) #
When did blunt say the payroll is $160 MM. Thought Jays project out at 134 MM - arb cases included
John Northey - Saturday, December 12 2015 @ 10:12 PM EST (#317153) #
If they have $160 US then they should be sure to save $10 for mid-season pickup(s) if needed. That would leave $16 mil for whatever. Given current market conditions that means 2 relievers.
Vulg - Saturday, December 12 2015 @ 11:54 PM EST (#317154) #
When did blunt say the payroll is $160 MM. Thought Jays project out at 134 MM - arb cases included

I've been looking for the source myself. I have heard it referenced indirectly once on The Fan 590.

Certainly, spending so far has been more consistent with a $140M budget. Also, the conversation on the radio was obfuscated by including things like beefing up investment and analytics and scouting. I applaud those things if true but including them in "payroll" is disingenuous.

Anyways, if somebody can offer a source or link, that'd be great. My google-fu only produces the following:

http://www.tsn.ca/jays-will-have-budget-of-140m-in-2016-1.391542
TangledUpInBlue - Sunday, December 13 2015 @ 04:52 AM EST (#317155) #
Ah the old 'invisible hand'. about as real as...

Oh, it's pretty real. Take a look round your home right now and you'll see plenty of "real" things brought to you by companies that sought to serve you, Jer -- companies that don't even know you exist (they're cold! heartless!) yet there they are waiting for you, any old time. No need to phone up the Fruit Czar before heading to the grocery store. The fruit will be there waiting, almost as if there were an invisible hand...

... about as real as those marxist regimes you are talking about

Yeah, yeah, never been tried properly, right? 100 million dead was just an experiment gone wrong, the theory's great!

Then there was Dewey:

Rogers doesn’t give a sweet damn about its customers, except insofar as they impinge upon its bottom line.

Enough already with the Adam Smith! Smith's version ("not from the benevolence of the butcher, etc.") may be more eloquent but Dewey's is certainly pithier. Well, couldn't agree more, Dewey, though that is a rather significant "exception" you make.

Note, however, that I never said Rogers provides good customer service or anything else. I said the logic of capitalism (an issue brought up for some reason by JerJapan) is that they'd better. Otherwise, there are consequences. Personally, I get by for the most part without them, though I do use their 590 app (not bad), their JaysTalk podcast (no complaints), and am a Blue Jays consumer in some form or other (2015 was pretty darn good (still don't like the two phoney strike calls (can't blame Rogers)). True, the off-season hasn't been great, particularly the Anthopoulos situation, but that ain't contempt for the fans, that's incompetence.
TangledUpInBlue - Sunday, December 13 2015 @ 04:56 AM EST (#317156) #
That would leave $16 mil for whatever. Given current market conditions that means 2 relievers.

Fortunately, we continue to be blessed (I hope) with a front office that doesn't pay $8M for relievers -- unless, perhaps, they're really really good. That's money, at this point, that had better be saved for a Bautista extension, or something similarly useful.
jensan - Sunday, December 13 2015 @ 06:07 AM EST (#317157) #
What happens if the TBJ sign Davis or trade for Joey Votto.with that 20 MM and get EE or Joey Bats to give permission to trade them .
scottt - Sunday, December 13 2015 @ 07:09 AM EST (#317158) #
Rogers and bell never do anything for their customers. They offer better deals to those that are not existing customers. To get competitive prices you have to cancel you service and wait for them to call you back. Periodically.

They charge me $2 a month to mail me a bill, but they have the money to write me weekly to offer me additional services.
bpoz - Sunday, December 13 2015 @ 10:45 AM EST (#317160) #
Right on Scottt.
Richard S.S. - Sunday, December 13 2015 @ 11:37 AM EST (#317161) #
2015: R.A. Dickey - 2016: R.A. Dickey;
He pitches 200.0+ innings with double digit wins and usually decent ERA.
2015: Daniel Norris / Marco Estrada - 2016: Marco Estrada;
The Jays gets an experienced Marco to start the Season, which should be a huge upgrade.
2015: Mark Buehrle - 2016: J.A. Happ;
If he's not Pittsburgh's Happ, he's basically similar. If he brings those changes they made with him (most likely), he's a huge upgrade.
2015: Aaron Sanchez and five other guys - 2016: Marcus Stroman;
Doesn't matter how this is evaluated, this is a huge upgrade.
2015: Drew Hutchison - 2016: ???
Just have to wait and see what happens next. This is getting to be a good Rotation, but not a great one. The Team might not need a great one, just another upgrade.

John Northey - Sunday, December 13 2015 @ 03:45 PM EST (#317164) #
I think that'd be a smart move - sign Davis or trade for Votto as insurance against losing both Bautista & EE next winter. Depending on cost of course (prospects for Votto, cash for Davis). Alex Gordon could be a good one to chase now too. Although after what Jason Hayward got I would be nervous on signing any free agents now if I was the Jays. The price might be a bit too insane.
John Northey - Sunday, December 13 2015 @ 09:52 PM EST (#317168) #
On the 'hmm' front. There are rumours Atlanta might have Freddie Freeman on the trading block. He makes $12 mil next year and $20-22 a year until 2021 when he turns 31. Depending on what they want in return that could be tempting as he has a 129 OPS+ lifetime and has been fairly healthy. Put him full-time at 1B and, like adding Votto or any other high end 1B, we'd be looking at a very scary lineup for 2016 (and affordable) with a reasonably priced guy at 1B for the rest of the decade while kids come up to fill in LF/RF or DH as EE and/or Bautista go elsewhere as free agents (giving the Jays 2 more picks to help restock the minors).

Currently the top 2 prospects are OF (Vlad & Alford), then 2 pitchers, then a SS, with Rowdy Tellez the best at 1B/DH and in A+ ball. So getting a top notch 1B isn't a bad idea as long as DH can be kept open for him to move to if/when Tellez is ready (EE keeps it blocked this year but probably not in 2017 and beyond).

The Jays really need one of Vlad or Alford to step up big time this year and make the Jays debate one of them for the OF in 2017, Pompey has a shot but I'd like another prospect who is ready in 2017. Perpetual prospect DJ Davis (or does it just seem like that) is #10 (3rd time in the Jays top 10 in the past 4 years). So he is a possibility too. I doubt Vlad will climb far in 2016 but if he is strong in 16 he could climb fast in 2017.
pubster - Sunday, December 13 2015 @ 10:49 PM EST (#317169) #
Scottt, why don't you make the change to Bell? Or a different company?
Vulg - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 01:46 AM EST (#317170) #
Scottt, why don't you make the change to Bell? Or a different company?

Personally, I bounce between the two. There is no real "different" company because those two own all of the infrastructure, so even if a company like TekSavvy (I live outside Toronto) can offer different pricing/bundles, your service experience is constrained by the SLAs these 3rd parties have with the owners of the infrastructure.

They're both terrible in my experience. I've been meaning to get off my butt and finally cut the cord, though you can extract a pretty nice deal from "the other guy" when your term is coming up.
SK in NJ - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 08:09 AM EST (#317171) #
"The Jays really need one of Vlad or Alford to step up big time this year and make the Jays debate one of them for the OF in 2017"


Considering Vlad turns 17 in four months, I think that's a lot to ask of him. Even Alford still has to make the A-ball to Double-A jump before we have an idea of where he is in his development, but he's far more likely than Guerrero to be ready by 2017.

Pompey is the guy the Jays will count on by 2017. He has the potential, and the performance in the minors is there. It's just a matter of getting a real opportunity, which he likely will at some point.
John Northey - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 11:04 AM EST (#317172) #
Yeah, Vlad is a longshot to be ready pre-2020 but if he is a HOF type talent then those guys climb though systems super-quick. I like to dream of a 3000 hit/500 HR guy being a Jays product at the start of his career even if he leaves at 25.
Jevant - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 11:50 AM EST (#317173) #
I'll go out on a limb and say that I'm pretty certain everyone would take Bryant in exchange for Travis, irrespective of a .378 BABIP.
uglyone - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 01:27 PM EST (#317174) #
But we'd also take stroman over travis. The point was to look at the two groups and how similarly they've performed overall, minus injuries and opportunity. And that is a comparison of our Gutted Absence of any Young Talent to the Best Young Core in Baseball. They don't have to measure up entirely to make the point.

of course, Wil Myers was another top prospect who had a sexy rookie year with an inflated babip, prodigious power, and lots and lots of strikeouts.
jerjapan - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 01:28 PM EST (#317175) #
Take a look round your home right now and you'll see plenty of "real" things brought to you by companies that sought to serve you,

Not sure you really understand the concept of the invisible hand if your evidence is fruit available to be bought at the store, or consumer products in my home .... I don't think it's a stretch to critique the idea, especially in relation to quasi-monopolies such as Rogers - no free market there - with unlimited advertising budgets that of course undermine the consumers ability to make the rational decisions the concept is predicated on.  Modern financial markets and enviro hazards seem to further undermine the relevance of Smith's ideas to the 21st century.  And I don't get what's puzzling about raising the concept of capitalism - this entire offseason seems devoted to ideas like corporate ownership, risk-management and sustainable investments.  But I'm happy to drop the subject. 

Your reference to genocide is a pretty heavy-handed straw man. 
ComebyDeanChance - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 02:10 PM EST (#317176) #
Pompey is the guy the Jays will count on by 2017. He has the potential, and the performance in the minors is there. It's just a matter of getting a real opportunity, which he likely will at some point.

I'm certainly cheering for Dalton, but I'm not as optimistic as many. I think the reason that Pillar was placed in centre was that Pompey doesn't have good break instincts. Furthermore, that's a difficult deficit to overcome. Last year, the team brought Vernon to camp specifically to work with Pompey on his break on the ball. But that's something that I think derives from not having had nearly as many chances growing up in Mississauga as kids in the US who play much more frequently than Dalton did as a youngster. There's always the option of a corner field position of course, but I don't know that Dalton's bat plays there.
Mike Green - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 02:21 PM EST (#317177) #
I don't agree at all.  Pompey's first step is good, and his routes are fine. The main thing he has to do is to take charge.  He's got more range than Pillar, in my view, and that is saying something.  Bringing in Vernon Wells to help Pompey with his routes isn't a great idea; Vernon played deep and was poor on the ball in front of him but good into the alleys.  Pompey has much more speed- he can do the Paul Blair thing if they let him.  Devon White would be a much better teacher.

ComebyDeanChance - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 02:35 PM EST (#317178) #
Mike, we can agree to disagree. I think Dalton's first step is his problem, not his strength. And not because of the route it starts, his routes as you say are fine, but simply because his break is delayed.

On a different note, Rob Manfred's Decision on Pete Rose's application was released today. I think it's quite reasonable, and for those of us accustomed to reading decisions of this sort, you don't need to go much further than footnote 2 at the conclusion of the Decision.

Mylegacy - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 03:25 PM EST (#317179) #
I may be wrong...I remember thinking the Blue Jays were going to win the World Series last year...but... I think Anthony Alford will be a magnitude of ability above Pompey and or Pillar both offensively and defensively. I suspect Pompey`s future is to fight Pillar for CF while Alford will (eventually) have the offensive and defensive ability to replace Bautista in RF. While an outfield of Pillar, Pompey and Alford would be other worldly defensively I suspect that one of Pompey or Pillar would have to go as our LFer will have to have more pop than either of the two P`s can provide.



uglyone - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 04:46 PM EST (#317180) #
I don't think some really have a handle on what kind of company pompey's numbers put him in.
Alex Obal - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 05:13 PM EST (#317181) #
I'll be the pessimist on the Heyward signing. Wrigley will depress his defensive stats no matter which OF spot he lands in. And how sure are we he'll be a good hitter? As the game shifts toward power pitching, and as he sees more and more high hard ones inside, he's probably going to need to make some difficult adjustments. He reminds me of Ike Davis.
greenfrog - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 06:33 PM EST (#317182) #
I think Pompey's defense and base running will be fine. I'm more concerned about his hit tool and (possibly) his mental resiliency.

Fangraphs gives Pompey an overall future value of 50 (major-league average). Hopefully he will attain or surpass that level of performance.
jerjapan - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 07:07 PM EST (#317183) #
Giants get Cueto for 6 years, $130 million with an opt-out after 2 years.

They should be a strong team again next year - perhaps an OF away from being done for the offseason.

uglyone - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 09:48 PM EST (#317184) #
Pompey was #30 BA and #42 BP preseason, #25 and #29 midseason....and then after those midseason ranks destroyed AA (175wrc+), AAA (143wrc+) and MLB (236wrc+) on his way back up last year.

I think we can hope for a little more than "hopefully league average" and "maybe seeing him in 2017".
John Northey - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 10:04 PM EST (#317185) #
Cueto with that opt out in 2 years would've been tempting just because odds are he'll use it unless he blows up real good. The NL though is probably best for him. The Jays enjoyed hitting against him...
3 runs in 6 IP regular season last year
8 runs in 2 IP post season last year
11 runs total in 8 IP.
ComebyDeanChance - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 10:46 PM EST (#317186) #
Pompey was #30 BA and #42 BP preseason, #25 and #29 midseason....and then after those midseason ranks destroyed AA (175wrc+), AAA (143wrc+) and MLB (236wrc+) on his way back up last year.

Holy small sample, Batman! Overall at AAA in 2015, Pompey posted an unspectacular .728 OPS. Overall in Toronto in 2015, his OPS was .664 and his OPS+ was 82.
greenfrog - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 11:03 PM EST (#317187) #
Travis Snider also tore up the minors. I want to see Pompey hit consistently against major-league pitching before I go gaga over him.

For what it's worth, last year Kiley McDaniel gave Pompey an updated present value of 35 (well below average) and an (unchanged) FV of 50, while Dave Cameron said that Pompey "isn't very good." We'll see how it all plays out (and I like Pompey, with the caveat about his hit tool).
jerjapan - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 11:21 PM EST (#317188) #
What's the context of that Cameron quote?

Pompey rose through the minors so rapidly, and did so well at each level at a young age, that he could easily exceed his expectations.

Even if he struggles, like osuna last year he has skills that work in certain roles. His D is mlb ready, and he could be a valuable pinch runner / 4 th of.
uglyone - Monday, December 14 2015 @ 11:44 PM EST (#317189) #
Actually Pompey's overall 114wrc+ was well above average for any hitter in AAA, let alone an underaged 22yr old speed and defense CF prospect. Add in the prior year and that's a 118wrc+ for a 21-22yr old speed and defense CF, which is great. Add that to his 150wrc+ in AA as a 21-22yr old CF, and a 150wrc+ a a 21yr old speed and defense CF in A+, and you have a performance even more impressive than his top-30 BA and BP rank.

Add the fact that his early season faceplant was so out of line with his surrounding performance - at multiple levels - and turned around so quickly and cleanly, and there's a good possibility that it was just a mental issue due to the pressure of being pencilled into an mlb lineup to start the season. To wit:

Way Up ('14): A+ 150wrc+, AA 138wrc+, AAA 137wrc+, MLB 105wrc+
The Fall ('15): MLB 63wrc+, AAA 59wrc+
The Rise ('15): AA 175wrc+, AAA 143wrc+, MLB 236wrc+


And if you're worried about small samples, the total sample there is over 1000pa, with The Fall representing less than 200 of them.


uglyone - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 12:07 AM EST (#317190) #
p.s. those numbers are supported by very good underlying numbers (over 10bb% less than 15bb%).

p.p.s. if Travis played a good defensive CF he'd have had a long and fruitful career as a starter.

p.p.p.s. Kiley never ranked Pompey a 35 and Cameron has never been one to know about prospect.s
hypobole - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 12:50 AM EST (#317191) #
"What's the context of that Cameron quote?"

From his July 2nd chat:

12:07 Comment From Bret
Does Dalton Pompey work as the main piece for the Jays to land Johnny Cueto? I assume the Jays would need to add some complimentary pieces, but Pompey fits as that roughly “back-end, top 100” guy. He’s also close to the majors, which should appeal to the Reds who don’t seem to want to completely rebuild. Plus, the Jays may be okay relying on Pillar in CF for the near-term.

12:08 Dave Cameron: Dalton Pompey isn’t very good, and the Reds already have a can’t-hit-CF.
Vulg - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 01:47 AM EST (#317192) #
With Cueto off the board at an AAV similar to Zimmerman's (i.e. low $20M), we have a clear second tier established behind the Price/Greinke $30M+ club.

Accordingly, the best of the rest should fall into line. The next 3 on my list of 'desirables' are Leake, Chen and Kazmir. Will they float down to JA Happ territory? I'm guessing not and that they'll end up in the $16M - $18M range, which would seemingly also preclude the Jays from landing any of those guys.

The only SPs on the Jays that give me any comfort are Stroman and Estrada. Happ will need more than half a season farming the NL Central to convince me that's his new baseline. Dickey is 41 and, statistically, is bound to fall off a cliff in the near future (hopefully not this season; didn't inspire a ton of confidence at the end of last), particularly since what makes his knuckler work is that he throws it with velocity. Hutchison has everything to prove. Chavez looks to be good for ~150 IP of 4ish ERA ball in the AL East.

The current focus is reportedly on the bullpen, but hopefully Shatkins has at least one more bullet to fire for the rotation ... maybe a one year reclamation offer to Fister? Maybe they're kicking the tires on Lincecum's degenerative hip? Whatever the case, I hope this isn't it.
Michael - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 02:49 AM EST (#317193) #
I like 1 year on Fister. He may be done (hence why it should be cheap), but he could also be a buy low and pay
Glevin - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 04:15 AM EST (#317194) #
I like Pompey and think he'd make a passable OFer already. I think because of his range and baserunning he has a pretty high floor and if he can adjust his hitting, he has a high ceiling as well. About Alford. Huge upside, but I am not counting on any prospect in A-ball making it. Far too many players look great before struggling in AA.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 07:42 AM EST (#317195) #
I think we are at a point where "hitting well enough for a position" can be overcome. Pompey doesn't need to hit like Bautista to justify being in a corner OF spot instead of CF. If he can be a league average offensive player with plus defense and base runner in left, then he'll be fine. He's still very young. The upside is there. Whether he performs is the question, and that can only be answered when he's given the opportunity. Put him in AAA to start 2016 and then bring him up mid-season (or to cover for injuries) to set him up to start in 2017.
TangledUpInBlue - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 07:54 AM EST (#317196) #
Not sure you really understand the concept of the invisible hand if your evidence is fruit available to be bought at the store, or consumer products in my home

So when I say that the logic of capitalism is that companies need to satisfy customers, you label this a whacky invisible hand argument. Then when I point to examples of it happening in your very home, you say, well, sure, but what are you talking about the invisible hand for? Man alive. Well, in fact, the examples I gave are examples of the concept at play, though I'd love to hear why you think otherwise. Should be amusing.

Then again, nothing could beat your suggestion that what we really need is a discussion on the effects of the capitalist system on the Blue Jays' off-season. This could be hilarious. So I'll let you lead the Box on this, since this is what you're itching for. But don't forget the counterfactuals: How would things have gone differently under Marxism? Presumably we would've re-signed David Price?! Or how would that work exactly?
Parker - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 08:12 AM EST (#317197) #
How would things have gone differently under Marxism? Presumably we would've re-signed David Price?! Or how would that work exactly?

In Soviet Russia, free agent signs you!
Parker - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 08:15 AM EST (#317198) #
Cameron has never been one to know about prospect.s

Right, instead of listening to the guy who analyzes baseball for a living, we should listen to the random homer who thinks every Jays prospect is a future HoFer.
uglyone - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 08:48 AM EST (#317199) #
"Right, instead of listening to the guy who analyzes baseball for a living, we should listen to the random homer who thinks every Jays prospect is a future HoFer."

woulda worked ok for you when we were arguing about, say, Wil Myers.

I would guess Dave knows very little about our Dalton Pompey, to be honest. He takes pains to admit he doesn't spend much time analyzing prospects firsthand, and definitely doesn't scout then. We have all sorts of opinions from guys who actually analyze prospects for a living - which i've listed - so not sure why you'd listen to a guy who doesn't.

And if we're worried about fangraphs' opinion, their excellent KATOH rankings love Pompey. As of August they ranked him 20th best prospect in baseball, and correctly saw his 2015 performance as a positive that improved his ranking, not a negative. KATOH also managed to peg Osuna as a top prospect prior to the season when everyone else ignored him.

uglyone - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 08:59 AM EST (#317200) #
As for me thinking every Jays prospect is a HOFer, that is garbage. I'll never shy away from criticizing prospects who are overrated - like hoffman this year or nay last year or the drabeks and smorals and lugos and davises in previous years.

I'm not pretending to be a scout here. Pompey's "bad" mlb peformance so far has still seen him produce like a valuable 2-3war type player already at ages 21-22. And as KATOH indicates his milb performance is excellent as well. The numbers say he is excellent - and his tools aren't exactly chopped liver, either.

When jays' prospects have the numbers, i'll praise them. When they don't I won't.

uglyone - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 09:24 AM EST (#317201) #
"Dalton Pompey isn’t very good, and the Reds already have a can’t-hit-CF."

MLB

Hamilton (22-24): 1087pa, 5.9bb/18.0k%, 242avg/088iso, 69wrc+
Pompey (21-22): 146pa, 7.5bb/24.0k%, 226avg/165iso, 88wrc+

AAA

Hamilton (22-22): 547pa, 6.9bb/18.6k%, 256avg/087iso, 82wrc+
Pompey (21-22): 351pa, 11.1bb/14.5k%, 297avg/075iso, 118wrc+

AA

Hamilton (21-24): 227pa, 16.9bb/20.2k%, 286avg/097iso, 127wrc+
Pompey (21-22): 275pa, 9.1bb/14.9k%, 325avg/187iso, 158wrc+

A+

Hamilton (21-21): 392pa, 12.8bb/17.9k%, 323avg/116iso, 128wrc+
Pompey (21-21): 317pa, 11.0bb/17.7k%, 319avg/152iso, 150wrc+


The funny thing is that fangraphs LOVED hamilton (Kiley gave him a 65 grade!) as a prospect, and Pompey has been far better.
Jevant - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 09:38 AM EST (#317202) #
Present value 35, future value 50.

Kiley and Cameron are wrong at times (maybe lots), but dismissing them out of hand like that seems strange to me.
Spifficus - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 10:10 AM EST (#317203) #

The funny thing is that fangraphs LOVED hamilton (Kiley gave him a 65 grade!) as a prospect, and Pompey has been far better.

In fairness, fangraphs loved Hamilton's legs in particular, which really doesn't get reflected above. In spite of having a disastrous year with the bat (52 wrc+) Hamilton was a smidge above average this year thanks to 18.8 uzr/150 and 13.4 BsR. His legs create quite the floor. If he can rebound to the merely very poor bat he had in 2014 (78 wrc+), then he's a star player. Hell, he might be a down-ballot MVP candidate if he can hit for league average. Pompey is fast, but he's not at that level (or even within two levels), and it shows.

uglyone - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 11:26 AM EST (#317204) #
yep, last year Billy still managed a 1.9fwar and 1.0bwar in 454pa as a 24yr old. 2.1 average war per 650pa. Dalton managed 0.2fwar and 0.7bwar in 103pa as a 22yr old, a 2.8 average war per 650 (and this was apparently a disaster year for pompey).

You're right Billy's speed tool beats Pompey's, but maybe not quite as much as you might think. Using Bill James Speed metric (which is on a scale of 0-10):

BH: 8.2mlb, 7.8aaa, 8.4aa, 9.5a+
DP: 8.4mlb, 7.2aaa, 7.3aa, 8.6a+

of course speed is nice, but is not nearly as important as the hit tool.
uglyone - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 11:38 AM EST (#317205) #
"Kiley and Cameron are wrong at times (maybe lots), but dismissing them out of hand like that seems strange to me."

I don't see how I'm the one dismissing anyone.

Pompey was top 20-30 on the last BA, BP, and KATOH updated midseason lists - and that was BEFORE his 2nd half tear over 3 levels. You guys seem to be willing to dismiss the majority opinion, not me.

Kiley is the lowest guy on Pompey and he had him easily top 100 prior to the season- and let's be honest, as diligent a hard worker and networker as he is, we have no idea what Kiley's actual track record with talent evaluation is (unlike those other rankings). Him being the high guy on Swihart and Hoffman in his only public rankings isn't looking so great at this point.

and Cameron has never claimed to be a prospect guy of any type and I doubt he has any familiarity with Pompey's actual numbers and is most likely relying on Kiley's take.
jerjapan - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 12:10 PM EST (#317206) #
Tangled, I think this miscommunication is on me - I was talking about Adam Smith's invisible hand metaphor and I thought you got my reference.  It's not a whacky argument - lots of people feel that consumers making rational choices will, in the long run, value the best companies who will be rewarded for offering the best service or product - so according to Smith, Rogers wants to avoid 'repercussions to their brand" as you put it.  I just feel that the metaphor is too simplistic / out of date. 

No idea why you think "I'm itching" to discuss capitalism - I just think that some of the capitalist arguments made round here - corporations have a duty to maximize profit, so don't bother complaining - are, while valid, not as objectively true / inevitable as people think.  That's the extent of my argument.

In the spirit of trying to be be hillarious, I do think Dylan would be with me on this and respectfully suggest a nickname change for you - perhaps a Ted Nugent song title instead :) 

Spifficus - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 12:51 PM EST (#317207) #

of course speed is nice, but is not nearly as important as the hit tool.

Well, considering his speed was responsible for 3 WAR (BsR + Def) each of the past two years (last year in only 454 PAs), it can be pretty important.

As for the speed tool, it's crude-at-best. It proxies too much for speed, and leaves out at least half of speed's potential impact.

uglyone - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 01:10 PM EST (#317208) #
Defense so far:

Hamilton: 13.4drs/150, 20.4uzr/150
Pompey: 22.0drs/150, 4.1uzr/150

CF only

Hamilton: 13.4drs/150, 20.4uzr/150
Pompey: 34.8drs/150, 27.1uzr/150
Spifficus - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 01:25 PM EST (#317209) #
other important defensive numbers:

Hamilton: 2220 (2220)
Pompey: 306.1 (194)

That's their total innings (CF in brackets). Any conversation about Pompey's defensive numbers has to be done with a tongue firmly in the cheek. I laughed a little when you presented his CF numbers without qualification. Do you pro-rate coin flips after one flip, too?
uglyone - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 01:43 PM EST (#317210) #
It's not as if his defensive performance is a surprise.

Scouting reports have always been much higher on Pompey's defense than, say, Hamilton's.

BA last offseason:

"A super athletic player, Pompey does get plus ratings on his arm and defense. In fact, his carrying tool is his potentially-plus center-field defense, and he won the minor league Gold Glove Award for center fielders last season. "

But I guess we can ignore the scouting reports and the numbers and base our opinions on......?
hypobole - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 02:06 PM EST (#317211) #
"and let's be honest, as diligent a hard worker and networker as he is, we have no idea what Kiley's actual track record with talent evaluation is"

Well considering the Atlanta Braves recently hired Kiley, and (just a wild guess) no baseball team to my knowledge has even offered a job to any of us, I would guess his track record may be a little (or even a lot) better than ours.

Talent evaluation is very hit and miss. There are so many variables. Even the 1st round of the draft ends up with a few wild successes, a few mediocrities and a bunch of failures.

Spifficus - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 02:22 PM EST (#317212) #
I haven't talked about the scouting reports one way or the other for Pompey, and in fact, I think that's all one can go off of at this point. I just regress it in my mind, as typically it tends to subconciously blend current abilities with what they project to be based on further refinement of their skill. This on top of having a wider range of variance due to it being based on a scouts interpretation of their limited number of looks. I also want to add that the positive view of his arm is out of step with what I recall other reports saying - I got the impression it was reported as average or a touch below.

As for Hamilton's scouting reports, he only spent 2013 in the minors as a CF, after spending the rest of his time as a SS, so I'm guessing they were all basically "Still rough, but WOW that speed!". It's extra impressive that he could put up elite defense right away with such limited experience at the position.

It's not an insult to say Pompey doesn't have as much speed as Hamilton. There's a wide area to cover between The Two Billies (Butler vs Hamilton), and Pompey is certainly closer to the Reds CF than the As DH.
Jevant - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 02:23 PM EST (#317213) #
I could be wrong, but I was fairly certain that previous scouting reports on Hamilton had him as a SS, no?
Mike Green - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 02:31 PM EST (#317214) #
TUIB, underlying the "invisible hand of the market theory" are a number of assumptions.  One of those assumptions is that people as a group behave rationally.  There is evidence to the contrary, and some economists now take a more multidisciplinary approach to consumer choices.

The big question about Pompey to my mind is whether he will hit.  At this point, he's had 1/2 a season at double A and hit .325/.393/.512 and 1/2 a season at triple A and hit .295/.375/.373.  If he hits .280 in the major leagues, he's going to be fine.  I think that you have to give him a chance to do that, and for longer than a month. 



uglyone - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 02:33 PM EST (#317215) #
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/100702060/pipeline-perspectives-blue-jays-dalton-pompey-best-speedster-in-arizona-fall-league

"Pompey will be just 22 next season and will need more time to develop, but once he settles in, he projects to be a .280 hitter with double-digit home run power and 30 steals a year. That said, his best tool may be his defense.

Pompey enhances his plus speed with quality reads and jumps, making him a potential Gold Glover in center field. He throws better than most players at that position, a testament to his hard work considering that he had below-average arm strength when he turned pro."
China fan - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 03:05 PM EST (#317216) #
".... there's a good possibility that it was just a mental issue due to the pressure of being pencilled into an mlb lineup to start the season....."

I agree.  And I think that's one of the reasons why some of us are reluctant to see Pompey "pencilled into an MLB lineup" to start the 2016 season.  No matter how good his minor-league stats, let's not anoint him as a full-time major-league starter.  At least not yet.  Let's not trade away a couple of outfielders on the assumption that Pompey will be fine as a full-time starter.  Let's keep some depth and wait for Pompey to force his way into the Jays lineup, rather than being handed the job on a silver platter as he was at the beginning of 2015.  He might be ready for the jump to the majors in April or May, but the Jays shouldn't leave themselves without any other good options in the outfield.
uglyone - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 03:30 PM EST (#317217) #
My way doesn't pencil him into the starting lineup, but your way certainly pencils him out of it.
Mylegacy - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 03:48 PM EST (#317218) #
They still have Revere and his 6+ big salary - which leads me to believe they think 6 large is an OK salary for an excellent lead off hitter. Remember, Ben has led the NL in hits - he is a prolific on-base guy and an excellent lead off(er) (Big Ben's 2015 stats: 31 SB, .306,.342,.377, 84 runs scored)... Pompey's ceiling is Revere with Pillar's defensive ability in CF. Nothing to sneer at for sure.

IF Pompey becomes the guy we(i) think he'll be - AND - if Alford becomes {anywhere near} the guy we(i) think he will be then Alford will be either the CF of the future at least OR (perhaps) he'll become the power hitting RFer Bautista is now. Alford has serious upside Pompey is not even in the discussion for. Time will tell. However, IF Alford moves to RF Pompey will be an excellent CFer - if Alford stays in CF Pompey may well be a more than adequate LFer with spectacular defense for the position and just OK power for that spot.

To me, Pompey has only a short window of time to establish himself before the significantly better prospect (Alford) is ready to challenge him. Alford turns 22 on July 20th (one day after MY birthday!).

I'm DELIGHTED we have the PROBLEM of Revere, Pillar, Pompey and Alford. What a delicious conundrum to have - may their play (this soon to be here) spring - answer all our questions...



uglyone - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 03:50 PM EST (#317219) #
revere is a mediocre on base guy with poor defense, and pompey has already been better than him at ages 21-22.
China fan - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 04:26 PM EST (#317220) #
"....your way certainly pencils him out of it....."

Not at all.  But I believe in competition.  If you're as confident in Pompey as you seem to be, I'm sure you'll be confident that he'll win the competition.  I'd rather wait and see.
ogator - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 05:31 PM EST (#317221) #
It may be that Alford is a much better prospect than Pompey but I don't know where the evidence of that is. Alford has one full year of playing professional baseball and he did well in that year but not staggeringly well. He had a good first year. If he continues to progress, he may well surpass Pompey but right now saying that he will is more speculative than supported. Pompey seems to be a really good defensive outfielder with speed. Alford seems to have better plate discipline and that's important but I wouldn't be putting him ahead of Pompey based on what he's done so far.
greenfrog - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 05:55 PM EST (#317222) #
Last winter Kiley suggested that Pompey might not be ready to take over center field for the Jays in April 2015. Some people on this site disliked that assertion, believing that the Jays could contend with Pompey in center, but Kiley was ultimately proved right. By the end of last season, Anthopoulos and Gibbons had clearly decided not to start Pompey until 2016, his encouraging minor-league rebound notwithstanding.
jerjapan - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 07:01 PM EST (#317223) #
Jeff Francis hung em up at 34 years old today.  A fun season to go out on ... but also one less AAA starter for us. 

anyone have any idea why there are so few minor league signings?  I'd thought this was a priority for Shapiro.  December last year featured 10 waiver claims / minor league FA signings, thus far this year we've got a solitary rule v pick. 

Chuck - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 07:36 PM EST (#317224) #
he is a prolific on-base guy

ML, I enjoy your hyperbole as much as the next guy, but really, his career OBP is .328. That ain't no prolific nuthin'.

Mike Green - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 08:20 PM EST (#317225) #
Last winter Kiley suggested that Pompey might not be ready to take over center field for the Jays in April 2015. Some people on this site disliked that assertion, believing that the Jays could contend with Pompey in center, but Kiley was ultimately proved right

Pompey was sent down after less than a month on May 1. He was hitting .255/.339/.455 on April 22, and went ice cold for 8 days. You can describe that as "proved right".  My description is "why bother putting him in the opening day lineup if you plan to send him down when he has a frigid week?".  If you hold your opinions so tenuously, leave him down to start the season. It's one of the things that I don't like about Gibbons- his jumpiness.  He's the anti-Showalter.
Richard S.S. - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 08:25 PM EST (#317226) #
Everyone should ignore all those guys who try to justify their existence by commenting on matters they have little to no knowledge about. The Blue Jays organization has a better understanding on Dalton Pompey than those twits. The basics are simple, 2014 was an absolutely amazing ride for an extremely talented Player.

On that basis, he was the Blue Jays starting CF, because they had no one else. He went 0-10 in his first three games, walking twice. Over his next 12 games, he went .298 .365 .532. He finished his first stint as regular going .071 .103 .107 in his last 8 games. Somewhere in here has said publicly he was intimidated playing up here - oops.

He was brought back for all of September and October and in my opinion did okay. He's got game-changing speed and is supposedly a very good defender. He's shown us he can hit and that doesn't go away. If he better mentally? Yes, I think so, he sure wasn't intimidated in the Playoffs.
Richard S.S. - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 08:51 PM EST (#317227) #
After all that bad press Cueto got last year - injuries, A.L. performance, Postseason's performance - he's not worth what he got. I fully expect him on the D.L. in 2016 for shoulder injury and possible surgery and/or elbow problems and possible surgery. The chance he opts out in two years is non-existent.
greenfrog - Tuesday, December 15 2015 @ 09:02 PM EST (#317228) #
Look, it's no shame for a prospect not to be ready at age 22 and to have some struggles in the early going. It doesn't need to be overanalyzed week by week, plate appearance by plate appearance. I think there's a good chance he'll do well in the majors this year.
uglyone - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 01:45 AM EST (#317229) #
"Not at all. But I believe in competition. If you're as confident in Pompey as you seem to be, I'm sure you'll be confident that he'll win the competition. I'd rather wait and see."

he'll win the competition....yet still be sent down.
uglyone - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 01:53 AM EST (#317230) #
"Last winter Kiley suggested that Pompey might not be ready to take over center field for the Jays in April 2015. Some people on this site disliked that assertion, believing that the Jays could contend with Pompey in center, but Kiley was ultimately proved right"

Kiley last winter:

"Pompey looks likely to open the season as the Opening Day center fielder, but at the very least should spend the majority of the season in Toronto. He’s the center fielder of the future and the Jays are clearing the way for him."
Glevin - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 04:27 AM EST (#317231) #
"Pompey was sent down after less than a month on May 1. He was hitting .255/.339/.455 on April 22, and went ice cold for 8 days. You can describe that as "proved right". My description is "why bother putting him in the opening day lineup if you plan to send him down when he has a frigid week?". If you hold your opinions so tenuously, leave him down to start the season. It's one of the things that I don't like about Gibbons- his jumpiness. He's the anti-Showalter."

I agree with you generally, but they were right to send him down. He was broken. So much so that he was useless in AAA as well. He had to go down to AA to regain his swing. What bothers me is that after he went back up to AAA and scorched the ball, Gibbons couldn't find any ABs for him at all. They could easily have worked him into the lineup 2-3 times a week and seen if he could carry his hitting into the majors. Instead, he didn't get a single start until the Jays clinched. It was baffling.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 05:45 AM EST (#317232) #
We can tell this is a painfully quiet time for the Jays. The last time an article was written about them was over 4 days ago. Even MLB Trade Rumor site only includes the Team as a courtesy.
Parker - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 07:09 AM EST (#317233) #
Hey Richard, if you're jonesing for Jays news and you're not already familiar with this site, Blue Jays Aggregator compiles links to all the latest Jays-related stuff online.
Jevant - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 08:06 AM EST (#317234) #
I never get into these things, but:

"Everyone should ignore all those guys who try to justify their existence by commenting on matters they have little to no knowledge about."

That's a particularly entertaining comment coming from you, considering your constant jabs at the moderators here (including another one below in this thread), and the weak name calling in the following sentence of this comment.

If you don't have something productive to add to the conversation, or feel the need to continually name-call or take cheap shots at the moderators who generate content here, please go find another board.
SK in NJ - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 08:15 AM EST (#317235) #
I think for the most part prospects that are ready/near ready for the Majors should be used as depth to begin the season rather than be counted on to start right away. I'm fine with Revere and/or Saunders in LF in 2016. Pompey will likely be needed during the season anyway.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 08:33 AM EST (#317236) #
Thank You.

Only one small problem, nothing there I haven't already read. Fansided App covers the Jays and whoever you want it to cover. MLB Trade Rumors App and others keep up the news. Notifications work best if you cut the sound out.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 08:49 AM EST (#317237) #
"Everyone should ignore all those guys who try to justify their existence by commenting on matters they have little to no knowledge about."


Well I was slamming Kiley, Cameron and other media-ish type. But if someone with a big ego consider themselves to be of that caliber, please feel insulted.

Most people on this site, despite occasionally getting sidetrack, generally make this site interesting and occasionally really funny.
uglyone - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 10:19 AM EST (#317238) #
not much to talk about really. which is unfortunate for a contending team. even speculation has been spoiled this year - and quickly.

They still have a chance to turn this offseason into gold though. well, silver at least.

if they can turn revere and smoak into some pitching help, and then be the smart guys in the room and sign the right bargains that fall through the FA cracks at the end of the offseason, then they can still come out smelling like roses.
christaylor - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 11:07 AM EST (#317239) #
"They still have a chance to turn this offseason into gold though. well, silver at least."

Silver, Gold? I don't know, but I think it is hard to argue that there's something surprisingly good in store (Gordon? Revere for a relief ace). Something has to break right between now and July, even if the offseason is complete. Fangraphs WAR projections have them at third in the AL East. They're about 4 WAR behind the Sox and could add via FA a 1-3, SP with ~2 WAR, Gordon at 3.5 WAR, or Davis at 2 WAR. I doubt any of this will happen. Unless the front office has cards (namely dollars) that they're holding close to their vests. The payroll parameters seem fixed. Shapiro claims not to want to trade prospects. The team is what it is, for now, it seems.

I'm OK with the team being in the same position it is now in April, but we're again in the position of hoping things break right for the team or break wrong for the Sox/Yanks. It feels familiar, even if the plan makes sense. We'll know if we're going to be in for the same ride as last year by July. Hopefully, we don't see the perennial 50-50 W-L record after 100 games and the Jays can add pitching at the deadline. Probably best for us all to hibernate until pitchers and catchers report and then hope for no major injuries.
christaylor - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 11:18 AM EST (#317240) #
Until hibernation ends, I'm happy with just plain fun/historical baseball writing. For example, today The Citgo Sign tells its own story. I work on the same street as the sign and see it every day, I was amused, especially at the chicken & beer comment. Anyone else have any fun baseball writing to post?
whiterasta80 - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 11:35 AM EST (#317241) #
I agree with Ugly. I have less confidence in it happening every day, but I think that there are going to be bargains at the end of this offseason and the Jays could substantively improve the team if they just re-allocate some assets (specifically Revere) and commit to a handful of "show-me" contracts in FA.
Gerry - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 11:37 AM EST (#317242) #

If you are looking for something to read in this down time here is a new site for you, sidearm nation.

Geoff Freeborn is a Canadian pitcher who dropped to sidearm to save his arm and his career. He was a professional pitcher for several seasons but now is retired and has turned his attention to his website to promote and celebrate sidearm pitching. If you are looking for a baseball fix go check it out.

uglyone - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 11:40 AM EST (#317243) #
meh on those fangraphs war projections for the red sox, chris.

steamer was way too high on them last year, and their model is still way too high on them this year imo. e.g. Steamer is predicting a full 8war improvement from just Sandoval and Ramirez this year, which is...unlikely.

The depth charts for now are all steamer until all the zips come out - and zips likes the jays much more than steamer, and i'm guessing again thinks less of the red sox, like they did last year. (this is i think because steamer weights distant past performance more heavily).

Jays Steamer vs Zips, using fangraphs' playing time estimates:

Pitching 12.6war -----13.8
Hitting 26.4war ------ 31.3
Total 39.0war (10th) - 45.1 (3rd?)

Steamer faceplanted last year on both the jays and sox (at least) and i won't be surprised if they do again.
uglyone - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 11:44 AM EST (#317244) #
also note the annoyingly plausible fact that those depth charts take a full couple of wins away from the jays by assigning far more playing time to goins and revere than to much more projected valuable players travis pompey and Saunders.
Glevin - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 12:00 PM EST (#317245) #
I wouldn't even look at WAR projections. The Jays are right in the mix for the playoffs right now which is a very good place to be. This is the best Jays team to start a season for a long time but you wouldn't know it by the negativity around here.
SK in NJ - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 12:00 PM EST (#317246) #
The Jays have at least one pitcher that WAR will definitely undervalue (Dickey), and another it may undervalue if his skill set manifests into a long-term FIP-beater like many seem to think (Estrada). Although with Dickey there's always a chance for complete implosion if age finally catches up to him.

I do think the Jays have to add a win or two prior to the season, though. It can be done with limited funds.
bpoz - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 12:06 PM EST (#317247) #
This is certainly a down time.

Some are still hoping for that Ace or big bat to be added. Some do not expect it to happen.

I think the pen is something that will get some attention. Probably not any big additions. I expect some cheap additions. There may also not be any ST competition for the 5,6,7,8 spots in the pen. This could be our cheapest pen in a long while. Only Cecil is making a big buck. It could also become one of our best.

I think Osuna may be cooler (ice water veins) than Henke & Ward. Sanchez has incredible stuff. Cecil is a very good package. Is he our best lefty reliever ever? Only BJ & Downs challenge him I think. G Lloyd? The rest of the guys in the pen? Who knows. There should be enough arms around.

uglyone - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 12:20 PM EST (#317248) #
SP war = average fipwar and ra9war per 32gs

Stroman (25): 24gs, 4.9war -- Price (30): 66gs, 5.8war
Happ (33): 57gs, 2.6war ------- Rodriguez (23): 21gs, 3.0war
Dickey (41): 67gs, 2.4war ----- Porcello (27): 59gs, 2.3war
Chavez (32): 47gs, 2.3war ---- Buchholz (31): 46gs, 2.3war
Estrada (32): 46gs, 1.9war --- Elias (27): 49gs, 1.4war
Hutch (25): 60gs, 1.3war ------ Kelly (28): 42gs, 1.2war
Sanchez (23): 11gs, 1.9war -- Owens (23): 11gs, 1.8war

RP war = average fipwar and ra9war per 65ip

Cecil (29): 107.2ip, 1.5war ----- Kimbrel (28): 121.0ip, 2.0war
Sanchez (23): 59.1ip, 1.7war - Smith (26): 78.1ip, 2.0war
Osuna (21): 69.2ip, 1.5war ---- Uehara (41): 104.2ip, 1.8war
Loup (28): 111.0ip, 0.4war ---- Tazawa (30): 121.2ip, 1.0war
Jenkins (28): 35.1ip, 0.6war -- Layne (31): 66.2ip, 0.6war
Venditte (31): 28.2ip, 0.1war - Hembree (27): 35.1ip, 0.0war
Schultz (30): 55.0ip, -0.1war - Ross (27): 79.0ip, -0.1war
Tepera (28): 33.0ip, -0.2war -- Wright (31): 36.1ip, -0.1war
Delabar (32): 55.0ip, -0.7war - Barnes (26): 41.2ip, -0.2war


Position war = average fwar and bwar per 650pa

Donaldson (30): 1406pa, 7.3war - Betts (23): 867pa, 5.6war
Martin (33): 967pa, 5.8war --------- Pedroia (32): 1034pa, 4.3war
Tulowitzki (31): 909pa, 5.7war --- Bogaerts (23): 1248pa, 2.5war
Bautista (35): 1339pa, 5.3war ---- Ortiz (40): 1216pa, 3.0war
En’con (33): 1166pa, 4.6war ------ Ramirez (32): 942pa, 1.3war
Revere (28): 1260pa, 1.9war ------ Sandoval (29): 1143pa, 1.0war
Pillar (27): 750pa, 4.8war ---------- Bradley (26): 678pa, 2.8war
Smoak (29): 604pa, 0.9war -------- Young (32): 722pa, 1.6war
Travis (25): 238pa, 6.4war --------- Vazquez (25): 201pa, 2.8war

Colabello (32): 580pa, -0.2war --- Shaw (26): 248pa, 3.5war
Saunders (29): 299pa, 4.6war --- Castillo (28): 329pa, 2.9war
Goins (28): 621pa, 1.9war --------- Holt (28): 1001pa, 3.1war
Thole (29): 202pa, -1.8war -------- Hanigan (35): 464pa, 2.5war

Pompey (23): 146pa, 2.5war ----- Swihart (24): 309pa, 2.0war


Our offensive edge is still much bigger than their pitching edge based on recent performance. I'm not quite sure how Steamer could even come up with their numbers, tbh.
uglyone - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 12:27 PM EST (#317249) #
oh some of that post got lost.

the preamble to those numbers was:

"Since the simple 2yr splits trounced the Steamer projections last year, and since of course i nerdingly keep track of it with every new transaction....."
Dewey - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 02:50 PM EST (#317250) #
“. . . of course i nerdingly keep track of it with every new transaction....."

I think that many ‘serious’ baseball fans must be touched to varying degrees by OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder).  Not to a debilitating degree, perhaps, but to a noticeable degree.  We can see it all around us on this site.  Not a lament, just an observation. 

One of the afflicted.
CeeBee - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 04:30 PM EST (#317252) #
you mean like continually checking this site and mlb rumours site?..... ahem
greenfrog - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 06:11 PM EST (#317253) #
Every so often I check Shi Davidi's twitter feed, which keeps re-apprising me of the breaking news that Darwin Barney has re-signed for $1.05m. It's been that kind of off-season.
TangledUpInBlue - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 11:19 PM EST (#317259) #
I do think Dylan would be with me on this

Well, he did repudiate his earlier leftism as he got "younger." Still, you could be right.

If you're having trouble making the connection between consumer goods and the invisible hand, go to YouTube and watch "I, Pencil" -- do it at 1.5x speed and you can be done with it in 4 minutes.
TangledUpInBlue - Wednesday, December 16 2015 @ 11:27 PM EST (#317260) #
TUIB, underlying the "invisible hand of the market theory" are a number of assumptions. One of those assumptions is that people as a group behave rationally. There is evidence to the contrary...

Great. The evidence of its success is overwhelming. Billions lifted out of poverty since the early 1800s. It continues to lift millions more every year (so much for being "outdated") as capitalism continues to expand round the world. Nothing else in human history has come close to this record of success.

So are there critics? Sure. People are always looking to bite the invisible hand (great book, by the way, since I seem to be making recommendations). Our brains were formed in a zero-sum world where poverty was the norm, so the idea that there can be win-win solutions through free exchange (and the job specialization that goes with it), and that this will create economic growth, is hard for people to wrap their heads around. Works, though.
Mike Green - Thursday, December 17 2015 @ 12:36 PM EST (#317282) #
No one is fussing for a great normative debate about the role of capitalism in the last 200 years on a baseball website.  What I was suggesting was the "invisible hand" model is an incomplete description of human behaviour even in the economic sphere- our decisions appear to be rooted in the psyche with tolerance for risk, for instance, dependent on many non-economic factors that likely go back to our tribal roots.  In other words, I was getting at Kahneman not Marx.  Kahneman's theory, more than Marx's or Adam Smith's, may have some relevance to the decisions made by a monopoly telco owning a baseball team and a tribe of baseball fans.

Now, if you do really want to have that normative debate, I'll see you outside and you can pack whatever ideology you want and I'll pack mine! Warning, "externalities" will come up.

Mike Green - Friday, December 18 2015 @ 10:47 AM EST (#317307) #
BA published its top 10 Blue Jay prospect list today.  Connor Greene is rated at #2 between Alford and Guerrero Jr. 
vw_fan17 - Friday, December 18 2015 @ 12:02 PM EST (#317313) #
Re: I, Pencil

Thanks, TUIB (I'd already seen a variation on this before). Now is there another companion video to explain why most pencils these days are so inferior? My wife's a teacher, and occasionally, I sharpen pencils. Seems like 10-30% (depending on brand, batch, etc) break every 1-2 cm - you sometimes can wear the whole pencil away without finding a usable sharpening. I guess the "creative destruction" video where they say "the formula for making a pencil is always changing" - I didn't watch it all, but it's probably to reduce costs, always making it cheaper? And it's not like you're going to track down the parents who donated that pencil to have them dig out the receipt, to return a $1.00 bag of 12 pencils because 3 of them were bad..

While I generally lean conservative/right/capitalistic (and used to moreso when I lived in Canada), I am getting more and more disappointed by capitalism's sidekick known as "the race to the bottom", which sadly, has taken over in too many areas. I'd rather pay $0.15 per pencil and get 98% high quality than $0.10 per pencil and 80% high quality. I realize with the $0.10 price, I'm actually getting MORE high quality pencils per $. For example, for $1.50, I can buy 10 "high quality" pencils, or 15 "80%" pencils. Of those 15, 12 (80%) should be high quality, so I'm actually getting 12 good pencils for the price of 10. However, that's over millions of pencils, so if you get a bad batch, you can get 10/15 being bad. Plus, the aggravation and time lost trying to sharpen a pencil over and over that just won't stay is worth a LOT more than the $0.10 or $0.20 saved. That's my point - sure, I saved $0.20 - but I lost 10 minutes due to the pencil constantly breaking, and my stress level is up. That lost time and hit to my health costs me MORE than $0.20. This is also why I switched to mechanical pencils as soon as we were allowed, and never looked back. Just don't buy the super-cheap ones.. Oh...

Anyway, sorry for the rant.
Mike Green - Friday, December 18 2015 @ 12:10 PM EST (#317314) #
When you throw out a pencil and it ends up in landfill (and the community has to deal with it), that is "an externality". Which is worse than being fungible if you ask me...
bpoz - Friday, December 18 2015 @ 12:18 PM EST (#317316) #
Thanks vw...17. I noticed that quality has gone down. You explained it very well.

If I could say what you said in my own words and I could understand what I said. THEN I would apply it to building a bullpen.
CeeBee - Friday, December 18 2015 @ 12:47 PM EST (#317317) #
So that's what uglyone has been crusading against the past few weeks...... cheap penc... ahem baseball players.
TangledUpInBlue - Friday, December 18 2015 @ 09:32 PM EST (#317349) #
But think about mechanical pencils! They didn't come from the Pencil Czar, either. They emerged through the same process described in the video. iPads too. It's all just a variation on a theme.

I'll see you outside...

I look forward to it, Mike. We can imagine anyway. (And, on externalities, if you're at all well-versed in these issues, as I'm sure you are, you'll already be able to imagine my response.)
vw_fan17 - Friday, December 18 2015 @ 10:19 PM EST (#317351) #
But think about mechanical pencils! They didn't come from the Pencil Czar, either. They emerged through the same process described in the video. iPads too. It's all just a variation on a theme.

I agree. And it's not all bad. In fact, mostly good. I just wish "the absolute lowest price, quality be damned" wasn't so prevalent and putting better-quality-but-a-little-more-expensive brands out of business. We try to avoid Walmart as much as possible, for example, even if we pay a little more.
jerjapan - Monday, December 21 2015 @ 12:57 PM EST (#317408) #
So are there critics? Sure. People are always looking to bite the invisible hand (great book, by the way, since I seem to be making recommendations). Our brains were formed in a zero-sum world where poverty was the norm, so the idea that there can be win-win solutions through free exchange (and the job specialization that goes with it), and that this will create economic growth, is hard for people to wrap their heads around. Works, though.

TUIB, not sure if you 'can wrap your head around' the idea that there are legit critiques of capitalist ideology.  I can respect your POV, but I can't help but detect the faint whiff of patronizing about your responses to mine.  Im not "having trouble making the connection".  I'm arguing (clearly, if you re-read my posts) that this issue is more complex than you - or 'I, pencil" - make it out to be. 

Socialists are not all idiots.  libertarians - not all idiots.  Republicans - they are making it hard for me right now to say this - but not all idiots

You know that "I, pencil" was produced by a US libertarian think tank that has a long record as a climate denier and launched 2 lawsuits against the affordable care act?  Nice source. 
scottt - Monday, December 21 2015 @ 02:03 PM EST (#317420) #
Billions lifted out of poverty since the early 1800s.

That has a lot more to do with scientific advancement than Economics.

At any rate, I find a forum for a sport in which players can sign contracts for half a billion dollars, an unlikely tribune for debating the causes of poverty.
Biagini Is A Blue Jay - Could Be A Smart Move | 189 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.