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I know your crowd
And they're not that proud
At least not from what I've seen
Flies in the ink leave
Footprints across the sea
Trace them back to where it all gets had
You find the cuts never run too deep
The cuts never run too deep




The Blue Jays couldn't face up to the Royals in Game 1, but they'll quickly get another chance for a win this afternoon with their big lefty on the mound, David Price. In his career versus the Royals, Price is 2-0 in six appearances (five starts) with thirty hits and three (!) walks allowed in 37.1 innings pitched. Kansas City counters with Yordano Ventura, who has only faced Toronto twice (1-0) in his young career. Ventura, like Price, wasn't particularly sharp in the ALDS.

Lineups

BLUE JAYS

Revere (LF)
Donaldson (3B)
Bautista (RF)
Encarnacion (DH)
Colabello (1B)
Tulowitzki (SS)
Martin (C)
Pillar (CF)
Goins (2B)
Price (P)

ROYALS

Escobar (SS)
Zobrist (2B)
Cain (CF)
Hosmer (1B)
Morales (DH)
Moustakas (3B)
Perez (C)
Gordon (LF)
Rios (RF)
Ventura (P)

Of all the KC hitters, Alex Rios has the most experience facing Price and arguably the most success, batting .400 in 30 ABs with two dingers, four doubles and 10 RBIs. Speaking of Rios, can you believe this was his twelfth season in the big leagues? In my mind he's still that raw, lanky outfielder with buckets of talent and a swing longer than the Bay Bridge. So um, essentially the same guy.

Here's hoping the Jays aren't overdressed when they're put to the test.



ALCS Game 2 -- Price vs Ventura | 128 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Magpie - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#313566) #
Let's get this, meat.
rpriske - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#313567) #
Why is it not starting...
King Ryan - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#313568) #
Is something going on in KC? Game was supposed to start 23 minutes ago.
Jevant - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#313569) #
407 PM first pitch. Broadcast started at 330.
Gerry - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#313570) #
Bold off??
uglyone - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#313571) #
please proceee, Mr.Price.
uglyone - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#313572) #
please proceed, Mr.Price. (bold off)
rpriske - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#313573) #
Finally. :)
rpriske - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 04:34 PM EDT (#313576) #
I am starting to really dislike Alcides Escobar.
eudaimon - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#313577) #
I feel like we've had poor BABIP luck in the early part of this series.
scottt - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#313578) #
How's that?
Magpie - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#313579) #
Trivia question - I'm going the with 1966 Orioles (33 shutout IP)
uglyone - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#313580) #
super encouraging quick shutdown 3rd inning from price there.
China fan - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 05:17 PM EDT (#313582) #
Wow, Price needed just 39 pitches to shut down this lineup through 4 innings.  If he can keep it up, the dominant Price is back, and he is badly needed.
scottt - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#313583) #
They Jays are hitting a lot of balls while Ventura is behind in the count. He's very careful except with guys like Tulo and Goins, with those he's not afraid to to start the at-bat with a fastball straight down the middle.
uglyone - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 05:29 PM EDT (#313584) #
meat has to score some here.
scottt - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 05:30 PM EDT (#313585) #
Price has been using the cutter a lot. In the 5th he fell behind twice and used the four-seamer to even up and setup an offspeed pitch. Good strategy so far.
uglyone - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#313586) #
that's why you don't sit for a booboo in the playoffs.
scottt - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 05:42 PM EDT (#313587) #
Great at-bat by Edwin there. Ventura challenged him with 5 fastballs and it looked in trouble but came through.
ISLAND BOY - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#313589) #
C'mon, Harold, give it a rest about Donaldson's foul ball hitting the freakin' wire !
uglyone - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#313590) #
and that's why you don't move tulo down.
scottt - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#313591) #
Ventura started Tulo with another fastball down the middle but Tulo was ready this time.
scottt - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 05:49 PM EDT (#313592) #
Ventura is done, but nobody told Ned Yost.
Chuck - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#313593) #
It's almost unfathomable that a broadcast team could be more annoying than this. Maybe even scientifically impossible.
James W - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 05:59 PM EDT (#313595) #
It's almost unfathomable that a broadcast team could be more annoying than this. Maybe even scientifically impossible.

We have to put up with the Sportsnet broadcast all year. If it's better, it's only by a sliver.

Chuck - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#313596) #
A sliver the width of a wire.
uglyone - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:03 PM EDT (#313597) #
David Price, folks.
scottt - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#313598) #
The padded lead seems to make a huge difference. Price didn't hesitate to paint the corner with his four seamer and stroke out the side.
JB21 - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#313599) #
Just painting. 66 pitches through 6.
greenfrog - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:05 PM EDT (#313600) #
This is why you offer Norris-plus for Price.
rtcaino - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:07 PM EDT (#313601) #
This is what I imagine it would have been like for Halladay to start a play-off game for us.
Chuck - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:12 PM EDT (#313602) #
Laz has got one big ol' strike zone.
scottt - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:13 PM EDT (#313603) #
Except, Halladay wouldn't have come out of the pen and would have started game 5.
uglyone - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:14 PM EDT (#313604) #
and the ump ruins his great night with two horrific calls against Joey.
scottt - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:14 PM EDT (#313605) #
I think he just want to go watch the Cubs/Mets game.
Chuck - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#313606) #
Goins, WTF?
uglyone - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:22 PM EDT (#313607) #
that just can't happen.
uglyone - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:25 PM EDT (#313608) #
goins is doing his best to Andrus this inning.
ComebyDeanChance - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:27 PM EDT (#313609) #
Yost's decisioon to send Hosmer sure looks smart.
ComebyDeanChance - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#313610) #
Now it looks really smart.
greenfrog - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:33 PM EDT (#313611) #
It isn't going to be easy against the Royals bullpen, but the Jays need to pick up Goins.
Richard S.S. - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#313612) #
When they have a Day Off tomorrow, why does Gibbons stretch his Starter out beyond 6? This was a must-win game here. The whole Bullpen should be available today.
uglyone - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#313613) #
just crazy.

i sure hope they ar least pinch hit for goins this time. christ.
greenfrog - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:43 PM EDT (#313614) #
Disastrous inning for the Jays.
Eephus - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:43 PM EDT (#313615) #
That sucked.
scottt - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#313616) #
Price looked good coming into the inning, but couldn't locate after the first 3 hits and should have been replaced, but it was a hard call to make.
Gerry - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:47 PM EDT (#313617) #
KC doing to Toronto what the Jays did to Texas. Price wasn't helped by Laz Diaz who is having a bad day. But Price did get his pitches up in that last inning.
Magpie - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:47 PM EDT (#313618) #
The gods of BABiP have forsaken us. Woe.
Chuck - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:50 PM EDT (#313620) #
Laz Diaz who is having a bad day.

Does Laz Diaz have any other types of days?

China fan - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#313621) #
When a starting pitcher is brilliant for 66 pitches and then falls apart, it adds another little bit of circumstantial evidence to the theory that he "looks gassed" (as one Jays executive told Jeff Blair a few days ago). Still just a theory, and very very speculative, but maybe it shouldn't be entirely dismissed.
Gerry - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#313622) #
As of the middle of the eighth the Jays are 3-13 with RISP. KC are 4-6.
John Northey - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:00 PM EDT (#313623) #
If Goins isn't hit for in the 9th can AA fire Gibbons mid series? No idea what he is thinking this game with Price staying in as long as he did.
Ishai - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:01 PM EDT (#313624) #
The inability to score runners on second with no outs early in the game is the type of thing that will lose the game against the royals. The Jays are going to have a lot of baserunners this series. They need to execute to piece together as big a lead as they can. Kansas City has had late inning rallies exactly like that one so many times now it is probably not luck.
JB21 - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:08 PM EDT (#313625) #
Nice to see rational thoughts on the site today.
Magpie - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:10 PM EDT (#313626) #
I miss Brett Cecil.
JB21 - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#313627) #
Sanchez and Loup trying to help silence the should've pulled Price crowd.
Ishai - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#313628) #
Losing Brett Cecil is really very bad. Loup is not much of a real option. We have no good bullpen plan against lefties, which I'm sure is part of why Gibby felt he had to leave Price in.
China fan - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#313629) #
And now Aaron Loup is pitching like he just doesn't care.
You don't walk the first 2 hitters that you see in a game that's still relatively close. Six consecutive balls? Throw strikes.
uglyone - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#313630) #
criticizing gibbons for this one is way off imo. it's not always the manager's fault. it's on price.
JB21 - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:17 PM EDT (#313631) #
Goins didn't exactly help Price out to start the inning, ugly.

Frustrating afternoon.
Richard S.S. - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:18 PM EDT (#313632) #
When you get 6 easy innings from a Starter who has struggled badly his last three games, relieve him and let your Bullpen take over. You have a 3 run lead, so let him enjoy his win.

This convinces me that Gibbons does not know how to manage in the Postseason and for the Postseason. After relieving Dickey after 4.2 IP, to preserve a 7-1 lead, I cannot see why Price pitches in the 7th. Never think about tomorrow, do everything possible to win the current game.
Ishai - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:20 PM EDT (#313633) #
I know lots of bad things had happened already, but Price shook off Martin to throw the full count fastball to Gordon, when all of their hits in the inning had come off fastballs and Gordon had been on the ones he had been thrown in the at bat already.
James W - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:20 PM EDT (#313634) #
Wait, you WERE serious when you said Price should have been pulled after 6 innings, 66 pitches, and retiring 18 batters in a row?

I just can't even...
Magpie - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#313635) #
Pennington?
Four Seamer - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#313636) #
Chad Pennington?!?
Magpie - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:22 PM EDT (#313637) #
Pennington is 4-9 against Davis with a HR. That's why.
uglyone - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:24 PM EDT (#313638) #
come on Revere. 3 on no outs for the big bats would be nice.
China fan - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:25 PM EDT (#313639) #
Kudos to Gibbons for a gutsy decision to use Pennington there. I'm sure a lot of people didn't like it, but it worked.
ComebyDeanChance - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:25 PM EDT (#313640) #
Harold Reynolds' commentary has been excellent. Smoak should be hitting for Revere.
Ishai - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:26 PM EDT (#313641) #
Definitely don't think Price should have been pulled after 6, no. It's possible if Brett Cecil was available he would have come in sometime in the middle of that inning before the lead was lost, though that would have been a tough call to make, and I definitely don't fault Gibby for the leaving him in.
uglyone - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:26 PM EDT (#313642) #
come on mr.mvp.
Magpie - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#313643) #
OK, Josh. Prove you're the MVP. Prove it to me,
JB21 - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#313644) #
Harold Reynolds' commentary has been excellent.

I just spit out my drink all over my computer.

Magpie - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:33 PM EDT (#313645) #
Was it the voice of Alex Rodriguez yelling "HA!" We may never know.
Magpie - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:35 PM EDT (#313646) #
You may recall that in 1985 the home team won the first two games. They got to watch the World Series on television with the rest of us.

Got 'em right where we want 'em.
King Ryan - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:38 PM EDT (#313647) #
Yeah, I find it tough to fault Gibbons there when I think all 30 managers do the same thing, thinking Price should at least be able to get the Lefties. Really a bummer, that was shaping up to be a gem for Price and suddenly it's 5 ER in 6.2. Baseball.
BlueJayWay - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:39 PM EDT (#313648) #
Almost feels like they have to win all three at home.
Magpie - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:49 PM EDT (#313649) #
Zaun seems convinced that the Royals were stealing signs, that LH batters simply should not have ABs like that against a LH pitcher like Price. He'd have a much better idea about that than me, but Hosmer, Moustakis, and Gordon all deal very well with LH pitching anyway. Their career platoon splits aren't very pronounced. This season, Hosmer hit .279 against LH, Moustakis had no platoon split at all, and Gordon actually had a reverse split.
scottt - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:50 PM EDT (#313650) #
Price shook off Martin to throw the full count fastball to Gordon.

Price had been missing with the offspeed stuff in that inning. Even his fastballs were catching too much of the plate.

Right after those two bad called strikes to Bats, it felt like Duffy had a deal with the baseball gods to pick up the win.
Richard S.S. - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#313651) #
It's very simple, 7-1 score, 2 outs, batter reaches base. Gibbons pulls Dickey after just 4.2 IP. And Dickey has pitched reasonably well prior to this.

On the other hand, Price has struggled badly (for him) his last 3 games. Pitching an easy 6 should be enough in a must-win game, but after two hits in the 7th, he's pulled while there's still a 3-0 lead. Failure to do so is negligent. This Team should never be put in the position of having to win four out of five games, when they had the Series tied 1-1.
Magpie - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 08:12 PM EDT (#313652) #
It's never simple, but let's pretend. If you were to pull Price after the misplayed bloop and the solid single - assuming you have somebody up and warm three pitches into the inning - who's coming in? You have two LH batters and a switch-hitter coming up.
Kasi - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 08:15 PM EDT (#313653) #
I'd like to see Osuna there.
Four Seamer - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 08:20 PM EDT (#313654) #
No game is reducible to just one play, but surely Goins completes that play at the RC. Perhaps home field would have been an advantage after all.
Kasi - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 08:30 PM EDT (#313655) #
It was an awful play sure. But aces can deal with having a runner on first without imploding. He's done it before and yeah although I don't quite have the same thought as Richard, I do find it interesting the differences here on how quick the hook was.

Poor Stroman though. Seems like every start he's been in a must win. I wonder what the boy will do if he gets a start up 2-0 in a series or something. Probably just be in shock. :p
Magpie - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 08:46 PM EDT (#313656) #
It was an awful play sure.

Goins sure acted like he heard something. Problem was, it definitely wasn't Bautista he heard. If you squint at the replay, you can quite clearly see that Bautista is not calling for it. After the play, Goins gets up and talks to Bautista, who just shakes his head and gives him a pat.

As to whether Gibbons' hook might have been a tad slow. I don't know, but after the work of Sanchez and Loup (they threw 27 pitches, 8 of them for strikes), we can surely be grateful that Gibbons didn't get them into the game quicker than he did. It was a weird inning. Price came up with some key outs against RH batters (first Morales, then Perez), which is when you might have expected Gibbons to make a change. He didn't, and Price got the big out. And after Price gets the RH batter, you're going to bring in Loup to face a LH? Instead of Price?

I miss Brett Cecil.
Kasi - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 08:49 PM EDT (#313657) #
This whole post season probably turned a lot on that play. Despite Cecil having neutral splits, the sample size between him and Napoli was too small to base anything conclusive on. What is conclusive is that bringing in a RH like Lowe there would have made it much harder for Napoli to get a hit. We get that out, we might just win game 2, which leads to perhaps no crazy game 5. Also leads to a healthy Cecil since he blew his calf out on that play. Crazy how one play changed so much of this postseason.
Richard S.S. - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 09:10 PM EDT (#313658) #
Most of the Bullpen has had two days off. With another day off tomorrow, getting someone as up early as top of 7th, but for each inning, should be automatic. Bringing him in after two batters reach should also be automatic. What are you saving your Bullpen for - off days? I really don't think most people understand what is a must-win game. In a 7-game Series you must head home with at least one win in your opponents park, otherwise bad luck can beat you, like it did Texas. That's why today's game was a must-win game. Losing it was Gibbons fault and no other - he just wasn't ready.
Magpie - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 09:12 PM EDT (#313659) #
Did you see what the relievers did when they got into the game?
Magpie - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 09:23 PM EDT (#313660) #
We do know this - we've used up the Sloan mojo. We'll have something new for Monday.
jerjapan - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 09:37 PM EDT (#313661) #
watched the game with a friend who tells me he was converted to baseball by game 5, which he watched only because I insisted that he do so.  After watching game 1 together and giving him tutorials, he turns to me in game two when loup comes in and says, where's osuna? 

Right? 

King Ryan - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#313662) #
For all the talk about this pitcher or that pitcher or Brett Cecil or whatever, the bottom line is that this team scored 3 runs in two games. We all know that the Jays didn't win very many 3-2 games this year and their season isn't likely to last much longer as long as JD/Bautista/EE aren't hitting for extra bases.
JB21 - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 11:25 PM EDT (#313663) #
Agreed, King Ryan. It would've been nice to leave KC 1-1 after our ace stole a game though.
John Northey - Saturday, October 17 2015 @ 11:32 PM EDT (#313664) #
King Ryan hits the nail on the head. The Jays cannot score just 3 runs in 2 games and expect to win either. No matter how annoyed I am with Gibbons choices this team should have scored 5+ in game 2 which would've changed everything. All we can hope for is the Jays get back to normal for games 3/4/5 to ensure the celebration for whoever wins is in KC.
TangledUpInBlue - Sunday, October 18 2015 @ 06:19 AM EDT (#313665) #
1. Here are Price's pitches that inning. Doesn't look to me like he was catching too much of the zone, at least on the balls that went for hits. (One of the hits in the centre of the zone was the missed pop-up.) In any case, I'm with Magpie -- if not Price, then who?

2. The extra-wide strike zone (which I think was also the case in Game 1) favours the Royals. The Jays are a more patient team than the Royals and need to get those calls. I think by the 9th inning, both Donaldson and Bautista had accepted the strike zone and were looking to drive the ball to right field. Donaldson fouled it off that way, Bautista just missed an extra-base hit.

3. Where I would fault Gibbons is on the decision to walk Morales in the 8th. It seemed clear from the telecast that when the count went 3-0, Gibbons signalled Martin to just walk him. If you're going to put a runner in scoring position there because you don't trust Loup to get out a RH batter, then why not have Lowe in there? Or someone. What's happened to Hendriks?

4. What's happened to Hendriks is he's been left as the long man, in case such a man is needed. He's way too good for that, and as others mentioned, should certainly be in a close game before Hawkins is. This is a mistake with the roster. Buehrle or Hutchison should be on the roster instead of Tepera. (Hague should be there too; I'm with Uglyone on that.)
TangledUpInBlue - Sunday, October 18 2015 @ 07:13 AM EDT (#313666) #
Oh yeah: 5. Harold Reynolds' commentary has been excellent.

Insightful, enthusiastic, humorous -- yeah, I agree.
Richard S.S. - Sunday, October 18 2015 @ 07:48 AM EDT (#313667) #
Stroman came out for the 8th, gave up a hit and was pulled. With a day off the next day why wasn't the Bullpen in? That was a bad Postseason decision by Gibbons. It doesn't matter how fresh his arm is, the Postseason is different. Winning is much, much harder here, as every decision must be perfect. The Jays got lucky in the ALDS, despite being good.

The ALCS looks like more of the same with their performance in Game One. Then Price outperforms expectations greatly through 6.0 IP and everyone forgets everything else. He struggles badly in his previous three games, but that is forgotten. There is a day off the next day and everyone in the bullpen is still available - with Hendriks, Tepara, Loup, Sanchez and Osuna having at least two days off, but that is forgotten. That was another bad Postseason Decision by Gibbons.

The Postseason is very different from the Regular Season. It took Cito Gaston multiple trips to the Postseason to finally get it right. Not learning how to do it, with all the off days, is poor planning. Unfortunately it might be too late to get it right this year. The Jays survived the ALDS, they might not survive the ALCS without doing things better.
Eephus - Sunday, October 18 2015 @ 08:21 AM EDT (#313668) #
By the way, there is no such thing as using up all the Sloan Mojo.

Sadly, that rule doesn't apply here.

dalimon5 - Sunday, October 18 2015 @ 09:27 AM EDT (#313669) #
We need to change the banner back to JBau and Edwin... They won game 5 for us then the moderators changed the banner and we're down 2-0. I also just prefer the older one, if anyone is interested in non-moderator opinion of the site banner. Just my humble opinion.
dalimon5 - Sunday, October 18 2015 @ 09:38 AM EDT (#313670) #
I think everyone is forgetting the huge egg that Goins laid at bat with the bases loaded. To me, that is the only part of the game that Gibbons chose the easy path and went against the Gibbons/Leland philosophy of "don't manage safe or you'll lose." I would have liked to see a pinch hitter there followed by Pennington in the game defensively next inning.

Richard, your assessment of the Jays is kind of hilarious, you seem broken from that loss. If you expect there to be a logical reason and objective result as to who should be correctly blamed...that's just not how baseball works. It's not a science like you make it seem. Also, not to be rude, but are you seriously giving up on this team right now? And suggesting that it may be necessary because Gibbons needs more seasoning in order to draw blood from stone and make his team win these low scoring games? Honestly...

scottt - Sunday, October 18 2015 @ 11:36 AM EDT (#313671) #
Definitely don't think Price should have been pulled after 6, no.

Price was  brilliant in the 6th. He started the 7th well, but gave out 3 hits on good pitches.
The Jays do not have a dominant reliever than comes in when the starter is in a late inning jam and strands runners. Gibby chose to take his chances with Price, but at that point Price wasn't in control anymore.

Remember how the Royals did the same to Houston top 3 relievers in game 4.
ISLAND BOY - Sunday, October 18 2015 @ 12:21 PM EDT (#313672) #
I think another problem in the game was the Jays inability to pile on a few more runs before the Royals started their comeback. Goins was on second with no outs after driving in Pillar, and Revere, a very good bunter, was unable to advance him to third where he might have scored. They also had the bases loaded and one out, and the Royals seemed to get a real lift by shutting them down. I still think we can come back in the series, but KC is a tougher opponent than Texas.
JB21 - Sunday, October 18 2015 @ 12:30 PM EDT (#313673) #
We need to change the banner back to JBau and Edwin... They won game 5 for us then the moderators changed the banner and we're down 2-0. I also just prefer the older one, if anyone is interested in non-moderator opinion of the site banner. Just my humble opinion.

Same. Not to get all cliche but we haven't won anything yet. Why would we change the banner? Why not wait until the Jays are officially finished to celebrate the season? Game 5 was fun but it was only the alds, and we're not done, right? Please change it back to the players, if possible.
CeeBee - Sunday, October 18 2015 @ 12:33 PM EDT (#313674) #
3 runs doesn't usually get it done for the Jays, or anyone really. Lack of timely hitting and a few defensive gaffs are really the issue.
Ishai - Sunday, October 18 2015 @ 08:55 PM EDT (#313675) #
I would have like to see Tulo bunt in the second when there were runners on 1st and 2nd nobody out. The defense was not ready to get an out at third on a bunt. Then if he fouls it off or takes a ball and the defense adjusts, he could try and get a hit through a compromised defense. He is really struggling picking up the spin on pitches, and perhaps should be strategized for as a hitter who is struggling. I know he is a 'star,' but the Jays need to score every runner on 2nd with no outs that they can.
SK in NJ - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 07:52 AM EDT (#313676) #
Price was giving up a ton of hard contact in the 7th. He should have been pulled well before he coughed up the lead, although I do agree with the decision to start him in the 7th since he had been dominating prior to that.

I also disagree with bringing in Sanchez with a runner in scoring position after pulling Price. The Royals make contact. Sanchez doesn't live by the K, he lives by initiating contact. In a situation that needs a K, I would have gone with someone like Lowe or (if he's still alive) Hendriks.

Ultimately, the blame falls on the offense, as others have mentioned. I don't care about the strike zone. The umpire was equally bad with the Royals but they found a way. That's all that matters in the end. The Jays being patient is a good thing, but maybe they need to manufacture a few more runs in situations like the first two games where the hitters are not driving the ball and/or not getting favorable strike zone calls. Can't afford to leave runners on base like that, especially with a team that has a bullpen that can end the game in the 6th inning if they are leading.

I think the Jays can come back. I don't expect KC starters to pitch as well in Toronto. Winning 2 of the next 3 is doable, although winning all 3 is likely their best shot of actually advancing.
scottt - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 08:52 AM EDT (#313677) #
Syndergaard got a win over Arrieta. I don't see how the Cubs come back from that.

The Jays can go on a 10 game winning streak no matter who the opponents are.
Gibby just needs to figure out someone to pitch the 7th inning and that can't be Sanchez throwing 2 innings.

pubster - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 10:05 AM EDT (#313678) #
Who would have thought Syndergaard would have more post season starts than Dickey just a few years after the trade.
SK in NJ - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#313679) #
I think Dickey has been a lot better in Toronto than most give him credit for, but my lord, Syndergaard is an absolute stud, and he just turned 23. That trade is going to hurt for a long time.

Sandy Alderson deserves a lot of credit for what he's done with the Mets.
Jevant - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#313680) #
I'm not really sure why Mark Lowe doesn't get that role.
ayjackson - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 10:37 AM EDT (#313681) #
Haven't been through the threads over the past few days, but just saw something interesting in Peter King's MMQB - Dean Chance passed away last week at the age of 74.

I had never heard of him, but am now finally familiar with the origin of one bauxite's handle. I am going to assume that ComebyDeanChance not passed away and is a tribute account name.

uglyone - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 10:55 AM EDT (#313682) #
alright, time for the real series to start. sucks we're in a hole but we got this.
uglyone - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 11:03 AM EDT (#313683) #
and for the record - taking out price in that situation would have been the wrong move. he's an amazing pitcher, was having an amazing game, and was still pitching well that inning despite the contact. unfortunately he made one glaring mistake and that was his last pitch of the game to Gordon. he makes a better pitch there and he's out of the inning with the game tied, only 2 of the runs earned, ....and likely comes back in for the 8th. without the Goins unforced error he's likely on track for a complete game victory.

i know we are all experts but these games are 99% about the players, not the managers.
China fan - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#313684) #
"....without the Goins unforced error he's likely on track for a complete game victory...."

That's a little optimistic.  Price hasn't thrown more than 7 innings in a game since Aug. 21.   Since then, he has managed only 60 innings in 10 games (one of which was long relief) despite getting an unusual 11 days of rest before the playoffs.  That's 60 innings in two months.

I don't know why we would be more optimistic about Price than the Jays themselves have been.  The signals are pretty clear:  they skipped his last start of the regular season, they gave him 11 days of rest before the playoffs, they decided that he wouldn't pitch Game 5 of the ALDS or the first game of the ALCS, and they switched him to a bullpen role for two games.  I won't repeat the off-the-record quote that Jeff Blair got from a Jays executive because I've cited it already, but here's an on-the-record quote from Gibbons when he was asked about Price's struggles in the playoffs: "I think what happens to those guys – your workhorses – you get to the end of the year, they’re gassed. They throw a lot of innings … and so that takes its toll on them.”

I agree that Price should have started the 7th inning against the Royals, and I agree that he was a victim of an unforced error, and I don't blame Gibbons for leaving him in for another batter or two after that.  But he probably should have been pulled a little earlier than he was.
uglyone - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#313685) #
not following. if you think he should have been pulled earlier doesn't that mean the team is showing MORE confidence in h than you are?

Price was on 66 pitches through 6.

In the 7th, he pitched 3 outs and 3 singles, on 20 pitches, and thanks to poor fielding that somehow turned into 3 runs and still one spare out left. The last batter there was a strikeout. The next batter coming up was a lefty. Pulling him at any point there would have made little sense.

without the misplay by goins, he would have been out of the inning with a lead and in the mid 80s pitch count, with every chance of going 2 more innings.
China fan - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 12:34 PM EDT (#313686) #
"....if you think he should have been pulled earlier doesn't that mean the team is showing MORE confidence in h than you are?...."

My point was that the team is showing LESS confidence in him than you are. And I think the team has MORE inside information about Price that you or I do.

I don't think you can simply extrapolate from his 6-inning performance and project it to the rest of the game.  You could have made the same argument about R.A. Dickey in his start against Texas: he had only thrown 78 pitches, so he should have been able to pitch a couple of more innings, simply by extrapolating his performance.  But it's up to Gibbons to see when his pitchers are beginning to get tired, and that's based on a lot more than the pitch count.  It's based on a lot of intangibles and health factors that we could be unaware of, and it's also based on recent history -- how his pitchers have done recently -- which isn't very good in Price's case.  And it's based on the importance of the playoff situation, which is far different from the calculations that we might make in the regular season.  Moreover, Gibbons had a mostly rested bullpen, except for Hawkins (who he wouldn't have used anyway) and Lowe (who threw only 12 pitches the day before and was probably available) and Loup (who had thrown only 2 pitches the day before).  I would have pulled Price a little earlier.
uglyone - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 12:59 PM EDT (#313687) #
your point is wrong. Price has only been pulled before 95 pitches once as a Jay, and that game he threw 7ip and had a bullpen fully rested for a week.
China fan - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#313688) #
It took Price a full 30 pitches to get just 2 outs in the 7th inning. It was agonizing to watch.  He was at 96 pitches after 6.2 innings.  To suggest that he was "on track" for a complete game is making a lot of best-case assumptions.  Even under your imagined best-case scenario (no errors in the inning, the singles don't matter much, etc), if he had managed to get into the 8th inning with his pitch count in the mid-80s, why do you think his pitches from 85 to 96 would be so much superior in the 8th inning than they were in the bad 7th inning?  More likely that those pitches would have been worse, not better, with the additional time elapsed.  And to blame the bad inning on Goins is a little silly.  Errors happen in every game.  Pitchers are supposed to bounce back from them. 
JB21 - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 02:01 PM EDT (#313689) #
CF, he said if Goins had made that play, which probably would've resulted in less pitches in the 7th. And, quite possibly, a score of 3-1 or 3-2. Assuming that he still would've got those other 2 outs and only gave up 3 singles.
Dave Till - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 02:10 PM EDT (#313690) #
I think Game 2 was where the Jays missed Brett Cecil the most. If Cecil had been available, Gibbons could have taken Price out in the 7th after Cain's single and brought in Cecil to face Hosmer, Morales, Moustakas, and Gordon if necessary (a L-R-L-L batting sequence). Then, he could bring Sanchez in.

Given that Price got to a 3-2 count on Gordon before giving up the tying run, and that Sanchez, not Price, gave up the go-ahead run, I'd say that this was just one of those times where things just didn't work out despite best intentions.

If Price had been removed earlier, there would have been scope for second-guessing had the Jays' relievers allowed the Royals to go ahead. After all, Price had been absolutely dominant through 6 - who was to say that this wasn't just a speed bump? He had a track record of being able to throw 110 pitches without significant fatigue.

It's just baseball. Sometimes, the bad guys win.
uglyone - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 02:18 PM EDT (#313691) #
"It took Price a full 30 pitches to get just 2 outs in the 7th inning."

It took him exactly 20 pitches to get 3 outs (and 3 singles). unfortunately Goins dropped one.
uglyone - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#313692) #
"why do you think his pitches from 85 to 96 would be so much superior in the 8th inning than they were in the bad 7th inning?"

they weren't bad in the 7th inning, when he got 3 weak outs and 3 singles against the heart of their order on 20 pitches.
Named For Hank - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#313693) #
JB21, a coincidence of timing (I had some time) and third-party feedback via Twitter that of all the hardcore Jays sites out there, Batter's Box was the one they were most surprised had no hoopla surrounding the Jays' fortunes this post-season. That's was a fair criticism and I took a moment to address it. As you can see by the changes, it's not set in stone yet but it's getting to where it looks good.

I'm as superstitious as the next guy -- once I tried to sacrifice a cursed hat to the baseball gods, remember -- but I don't for a second believe that our banner has any impact on the performance of the Toronto Blue Jays. That said, I've sent a revised centre image to Joe this afternoon that returns us to the old font but keeps Jose Bautista's airborne bat flying up there against the stadium lights.

And if anyone calls me a moderator again I'll ban them on the spot. That's what moderators do, right?

pubster - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 02:45 PM EDT (#313694) #
Giving teams extra outs hurts.

We were on the receiving end against Texas, and now we're on the other side.

SK in NJ - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#313695) #
Blaming Goins is unfair. That miscue resulted in a man on 1st with 0 out in a 3-0 game. Hardly something that should have lead to the wheels falling off like it did.

The Cecil reasoning is valid, but I still would have been fine with a pitching change to someone like Lowe (or Loup for the lefties). I was not a fan of bringing Sanchez into that spot since a RP who initiates contact, even if it's the GB variety, is too risky to bring in when you need strike outs. Lowe should have been the guy based on who was available.

Price was giving up blazing hard contact after the Goins error. He should not have been pulled way before he was. That's not hindsight either because you could tell he was missing his spots that inning and the Royals were squaring up on his pitches. He wasn't the same guy in the 7th, for whatever reason.
SK in NJ - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#313696) #
That should read "he should have been pulled way before he was".
JB21 - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#313697) #
Advocating for Loup instead of Price when Price had a perfect game minus the first batter of the game + an insanely efficient pitch count with strikeouts seems like reaching to me.
uglyone - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#313698) #
3 singles is not "the wheels falling off".
SK in NJ - Monday, October 19 2015 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#313702) #
"Advocating for Loup instead of Price when Price had a perfect game minus the first batter of the game + an insanely efficient pitch count with strikeouts seems like reaching to me."

I meant Loup for a tough lefty match-up if they didn't want Lowe facing a lefty, but I would have been fine with Lowe in general.

One thing the Royals do very well is that they don't play match-ups. I don't even think they had a lefty reliever other than Morales before Duffy went from the rotation to the pen. I wish Gibbons trusted his RHP more to get both sides of the plate out. The one guy he does trust outside of Osuna is the one guy who shouldn't be trusted against LHB (Sanchez). It's just a weird way of handling the pen. I would have trusted Lowe to finish the inning. Even if he failed, he is one of the best relievers on the team, and you go with your best in those spots.
ALCS Game 2 -- Price vs Ventura | 128 comments | Create New Account
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