Dan Szymborski has ranked his list of 25 best pitchers under the age of 25.

Here are the ones that may be of most interest to us:

#22 Aaron Sanchez
#16 Daniel Norris
#8 Marcus Stroman

And this kid

#10 Noah Syndergaard


Only 2 others from the AL East

#19 Eduardo Rodriguez
#12 Kevin Gausman

FYI only, this thread has been filed as a game report thread instead of a "series" thread or whatever it's called, haha.

So at this point, with respect to pitching, Toronto is 6th in the league for bases on ball/9,  7th for hit/9 but dead last for HR/9 with 1.1.

Interestingly, the Jays have only 2 intentional walks. Makes sense, hard to work around a hitter with this lineup.

Dan Szymborski has ranked his list of 25 best pitchers under the age of 25.

Age of the Rays starting pitchers (by numbers of starts):

26, 27, 25, 26, 25, 25, 26, 27.

Do the Rays make an argument for not trading young arms?

I have been wondering more and more if sports, in general, have been getting younger and younger.

Kids are maturing faster now and mentally more prepared younger. I know I have noticed in Hockey and Football as well.

Does anyone have stats to compare the average age of a MLB baseball player over the last 20 years?

Can't understand why Colabello was sent home on that very shallow fly.  He's a slow runner and he was a dead duck at home plate, despite the missed tag.

On another front:  Anthopoulos was reportedly in attendance at tonight's Buffalo game, watching Matt Boyd, who had another good start: 5 innings, 2 runs, no walks, 4 strikeouts.  If Copeland struggles on Sunday, and if Sanchez is not ready soon, I wonder if Boyd is the next pitcher to get a chance.

Seems fair to say, however, that Boyd will not be replacing Estrada in the rotation, on the evidence of the first 6 innings of the Jays game tonight anyway.

Quick poll:  how many pitches would you allow Estrada to throw tonight, if he continues to do what he's doing?

In a BA chat today, someone asked who are some movers into the Top 50 prospects; Matt Boyd and Jeff Hoffman were both mentioned as having a good chance. That's what everyone expects from Hoffman but really surprising for Boyd. Might he be someone AA decides to move for a pitcher like Hamels?

how many pitches would you allow Estrada to throw tonight, if he continues to do what he's doing?

As many as he needs! Hey, he's not some youngster whose arm and body are still growing and developing. (Career high pitch count is 115, by the way.)

yep.


let him go as many as he needs.

A frustrating way to lose the no-hitter, on a little bloop in no-mans-land.   But he was already at 118 pitches -- he would have needed 150 for 9 innings, which might have been dangerous, no matter how smoothly he seemed to be throwing in the late innings.

CB Bucknor and Angel Hernandex, why tenure is a bad thing.

Neither is as bad as Phil Cuzzi, but that's a low bar.

On one hand the game situation suggests Osuna wasn't trying to hit Jones. But the first two pitches of the at-bat were way inside. After the first two pitches I said I wonder if Osuna is trying to hit Jones. If the Jays were going to retaliate against anyone it would be Jones. Osuna shouldn't do it because of the game situation but maybe his emotions took over.

On the positive side, the ejection means that Osuna only threw 15 pitches and should still be available tomorrow....

Osuna wasn't pitching well, again. I actually said "Thank you" when C.B. tossed him.

Nice job by Delabar.

i actually think osuna meant to do that.

but the original warning and gibbons ejection was BS.

Why would Osuna intend to hit Jones?  To load the bases and bring the tying run to the plate?  It could have cost the game.  If it was intentional, someone needs to tell Osuna to pick a better spot.  Surely he couldn't have been that unaware of the game situation, or that reckless.

Another messy inning for Cecil.

That makes four loopers in two innings.  That's enough of that.

Obviously just trying to win a 1-run game.

For the love of Rod, just one more out.

cecil's let this role get in his head.

This is why those Papelbon rumors are going to stay alive for weeks to come.  Cecil and Osuna are supposed to be the most reliable guys in the bullpen, yet neither was effective tonight. 

Baseball, like life, is not always fair.

As bad a save as you're going to see.

A win is a win is a win. But hoo boy.

don't know what to say. i really like our bullpen but they can't melt down in the clutch every single time.

AL East might take over first place in the divisional standings tonight. And they're far far ahead of anyone in run differential.

so much for a weak division.

Walking the tightrope, as Stevie Ray Vaughan would say.

Estrada leaves the game with a one-hitter and a comfortable 5-0 lead.  In just two innings, the bullpen promptly turns it into a six-hitter and a one-run nail-biter that the Jays were very lucky to win. 

That was not a bullpen meltdown.  Reimold's was the hardest hit ball of the lot, but mostly it was just the randomness of softly hit balls falling in (and a couple of HBPs).  Osuna and Cecil weren't at their best but as comebacks from a 5-0 deficit go, that was the lamest one I have seen in a long time.

Gotta disagree, Mike.  Osuna and Cecil weren't throwing enough strikes, their command was poor, and those "loopers" were hit well enough to be singles in most ballparks.  Five hits and two HBPs in two innings is unacceptable. 

It's a one run win; I'll take it.

Estrada is a terrific frontrunner. When a solo homer is death he struggles, but when a solo homer is harmless, he's untouchable. Perfect fit. At this point, I'd pencil him into the rotation for the rest of the season.

Don't think I can watch many more 9th innings like that. Cecil is not the guy.

Time to give Delabar the closer role. I was impressed tonight

I remember in 2012 when AA went a number of times to watch the 3 Lansing starters - he was trying to decide whom to keep or make available - same probably goes for Boyd.

At this time I favour a closer by committee - just use match-ups as your guide.

Delabar has only thrown 15 innings. He's never had an ERA better than 3.22 and his FIP currently sits at 3.43. After last year's implosion, he shouldn't be put under that pressure.

The bullpen has been a major source of frustration this season, especially in high leverage situations. However I do not understand how anyone watching that game can rail against anyone but the BABIP gods. The Orioles 5 flyball hits may have travelled 700 feet combined. The Jones plate appearance nicely summed up the bad luck - Cecil broke THREE bats and somehow still yielded a texas leaguer scoring two runs. Five bloop hits and an infield single, all bunched over 2 innings is one of the most ridiculous runs of luck I have seen in recent memory. The Orioles had no business being within 5 runs of the Jays on this night.

While I don't think anybody needs to "rail against" Cecil, Hodgie, it was pretty clear he had very little command of his repertoire tonight.

Leaving Estrada in to complete the no-hitter would've been a terrible managerial decision for a team already struggling in the starting pitching department, and the mention of 150 pitches for the sole purpose of completing a no-hitter that involved 4 free base runners makes me cringe.

I've read people trying to draw correlations between the manager, the bullpen, and the ability to win tight games, so games like tonight make me think one-run W-L records are entirely irrelevant. Long live Pythagoras!

Can Lucas Duda still play the OF? The conversation in the other thread about trading EE had me looking at playoff contenders' pitching depth, and it led me to the Mets. Harvey & deGrom are beasts fronting the rotation, and Colon & Niese are solid middle guys in the NL. That leaves Syndergaard and Stephen Matz for the final spot, and there's also Dillon Gee and Rafael Montero capable of taking some innings. There were reports that Duda turned down a 3/30 offer from the Mets before this season, and I wonder if Encarnacion was a model for the offer.

Duda? An introvert whose bat mysteriously took off the nanosecond his team stopped forcing him to play a position he couldn't play? Sounds familiar.

one-run W-L records are entirely irrelevant.

To assessing the quality of the team, absolutely. Alas, all too damn relevant in the standings.

Last night was a perfect example of winning a one-run game because of lousy relief pitching.

Can Lucas Duda still play the OF?

I'm going to quibble with your usage of 'still'. He's downright Colabellian in the OF.

Dioner Navarro DHs today because, well, he's tearing it up. A confused and resigned Justin Smoak looks on.

I think AA will have to rebuild the bull pen each year for 2-3 years starting this 2015 year.

I saw 2 good lefties Cecil & Loup. I saw 3 RHPs in Sanchez, Estrada, Redmond & possibly Delabar when ST started. The situation changed and Estrada, Redmond, Castro & Osuna along with an 8 guy (Hendriks).

When the season started I was confident in Loup, Cecil, Redmond & Estrada to handle parts of the job. 1 or 2 strong RH pitchers were missing. Their job was to be high leverage.

Lacking the 2 strong established RH pitchers weakened the pen.

"....Dioner Navarro DHs today because, well, he's tearing it up. A confused and resigned Justin Smoak looks on....."

I agree:  this is rather absurd.  Navarro was mediocre before his injury and has only gotten worse since then.  His slash line for June is .136/.192/.136.   Smoak, on the other hand, has a .823 OPS on the season and has actually gotten better in June with a .868 OPS this month.  My only guess is that Smoak might have a minor injury?  Otherwise it makes no sense at all.

On a more positive note:  Chris Colabello, who was expected to regress significantly, and did regress significantly, has begun to bounce back and now has a .802 OPS over his past 10 games.  His hitting performance is highlighted by a .366 OBP.    He only has one HR this month, but he's shown an ability to get on base.

(My reference to Colabello's .366 OBP is only for the past 10 days, of course.  On the season is OBP is .392.)

Meanwhile, Bob Elliott is reporting that the Jays have been talking to the Brewers about a possible trade for Francisco Rodriguez.  He's having a good season and he's a lot cheaper than Papelbon, with a reasonable option for 2016.

Yeah, K Rod makes a lot more sense in the Jays budget and in prospects I'm sure.  He could reach 400 saves next year, so he has tons of experience.  HR/9 was his problem the past few years but is at 0.4 HR/9 this year.  As long as the Brewers don't ask for a top prospect I'd say 'go for it'.    Signed for 2016 $5.5 mil and an option for 2017 $8 mil or $4 mil buyout means his total risk is $9.5 mil for 2016 plus whatever is left of his $3.5 for this year.  Fits nicely with the Jays budgeting.  The Brewers catchers have been horrid this year 40 OPS+ for their #1, 58 for their #2, -37 for their #3.  Could they be talked into Navarro?  I'd do that in a split second even if the Jays had to eat some of Navarro's contract.

Krod is exactly thr kind of guy i'm most scared of getting. Was bad last year, and has been better this year but he can't even throw 90 any more. this is exactly the kind of guy that could cordero badly on us.

If they're showcasing Navarro, he needs to play more than once a week

What I would do is install Delabar as the closer immediately, with the caveat that Cecil will get the save op when there is a preponderance of opposition lefty batters. Cecil is not suited to being the closer because he is tremendously off-balance when he throws the ball, which ABSOLUTELY HAS TO affect his ability to locate with precision. Delabar is a veteran and has been arguably the best reliever on the team.

KRod just fine for me - 4th straight year that his WHIP has gone done - had a homer problem last year ( same as Estrada) but only 1 so far this year & coupled with the potential acquisition cost prefer KRod to Papelbon.

Sorry, that should be "4th straight his WHIP has gone down"

"...Could they be talked into Navarro?  I'd do that in a split second even if the Jays had to eat some of Navarro's contract...."

The Brewers are out of contention this season. They are looking beyond 2015, and Navarro is a free agent at the end of this season.  So I can't imagine that Navarro would have any value to them.  Anthopoulos will have to offer a prospect (or two) for K-Rod.  Low-ranking prospect or prospects, I would think.

As for Navarro:  I don't think the Jays are showcasing him.   Gibbons has always liked his hitting, perhaps more than it deserves.

I agree 92-93 and I didn't mean to insinuate that Cecil pitched well last night. That said he wasn't throwing middle-middle the whole inning and one would usually see much better results inducing that much weak contact.

Much the same as the first inning today - has Baltimore hit a ball hard yet this series?

85 - Krod's had a hr problem the last 3yrs, and getting worse each year, coinciding with a steady velo drop. he's been very lucky with a low hr/fb% the first 2 months this year but that can change in a hurry, especially in the dome.

KROD

2012: 91.8mph (60.7%), 12.3hr/fb%, 1.0hr/9
2013: 91.4mph (53.8%), 15.2hr/fb%, 1.4hr/9
2014: 90.5mph (55.0%), 23.3hr/fb%, 1.9hr/9
2015: 89.4mph (43.7%), 6.3hr/fb%, 0.4hr/9

a little unclear whether that huge drop in fastball usage is legit or just pitch f/x having a harder time distinguishing it from the changeup now that his velo is dropping so much. but either way it's probably not good news, and either way it shows a significant change.

i'm not sure i buy the HR recovery this year.

This is starting to border on the absurd. Heading into the bottom of the 8th inning Baltimore is up to 13 hits combined in the two games. The two hardest hit balls were an infield single and a lazy fly ball that carried all the way to the wall in left.

Related, while Colabello has been a revelation with the bat his time in left field really needs to come to an end. That is another two runs that he has cost the Jays on plays that should be made the vast majority of the time.

K-Rod can't be worse than this lot.

Cola in LF and Navarro DHing is less than ideal.

I don't see how aquiring K-Rod would've helped hold the O's from scoring in the 8th.

The bullpen has allowed a total of 8 baserunners in the 9th inning in the past two games.  That's going to cost this team a lot of games if it continues.

Brainfart. Nevermind.

The HBP makes yesterday's ejections look that much worse. Moving the winning run into scoring position.

would have liked to see Pillar pinch hit for in at least one of those last 2ab.

The Flaherty HBP especially hurts given his career .264 OBP against lefties.

And while it probably didn't matter a whole lot, from a probability perspective, which particular RH reliever was brought in to face Machado a run down in the 9th, why Tepera and why not Hendriks? (And I say that knowing he gave up the game-winning single to Flores earlier in the week.)

would have liked to see Pillar pinch hit for in at least one of those last 2ab.

I was thinking the same thing. O'Day, like most sidewinders, has a huge L/R split. But I was quite sure that given the way Pillar has been hitting lately, there was no way Smoak was coming in for him (Gibbons wasn't pinch-hitting for Pillar during his cold stretch, so he wasn't about to start now).

And why not Smoak for Carrera or Navarro in the 8th inning?

Listening to the 8th inning I was thinking if they don't score with the bases loaded and none out they deserve to lose.  Sadly they did just that.  EE doing a double play to end it was just icing on the cake.  :P

And why not Smoak for Carrera or Navarro in the 8th inning?

I thought the lineup was poorly put together today, particularly Colabello hitting ahead of Martin and especially Pillar hitting ahead of Goins.

I don't think Colabello is a better hitter than Martin, but in any event he's going to be replaced by Carerra in the late innings and I want Martin hitting ahead of him. I realize that today EC reached on a walk in the 8th while Martin struck out, but that doesn't change my view.

Worse, hitting Pillar ahead of Goins means that in game situations like today's bottom of the 9th with the bases loaded, opponents have the light hitting Pillar who can't be replaced by a pinch hitter batting ahead of Goins who can be pinch hit for. That's what bothered me most in the 8th. The last out was Pillar and we didn't see the pinch hitter until the bases empty leadoff spot in the 9th.

And why not Smoak for Carrera or Navarro in the 8th inning?

I don't mind the lefties, even Carrera and Navarro, batting against O'Day. Pillar is the match-up I really don't like.

Interesting to watch teams like Baltimore and NY with strong back ends to their bullpen. They rarely piss away games. The yankees in particular get it. They have had a strong back end as long as I can remember.

And it sure matters. As i posted earlier, teams in the top 10 of save percentages the last 5 years are 6x more likely to make the playoffs than those in the bottom 10. There's few stats with more clarity than that.

Hope AA can get it done. Would be a shame to waste an offence that is simply astonishing.

OK, everybody switch on Pittsburgh-Wahington right now. He's doing it again...

The lineup that I would run out most days against RHP would have Smoak at first base, Carrera in left-field and Encarnacion or Colabello DHing (Edwin doesn't seem quite right now perhaps because his shoulder is still painful)..

The situation that Tepera entered (down 1, runners on 2nd and 3rd, 2 outs, top nine) has a leverage of 1.6.  That's a high leverage situation and calls for Hendriks.  Gibbons rarely uses his relievers this way- he is much more likely to put in one of his top relievers with the lead (even a significant lead) or when the game is tied.  

With two outs, Scherzer hits the pinch-hitter to lose the perfect game, settles for a no-hitter.

Wow.  Seems Scherzer was determined not to be this generations Dave Stieb.  Trying to be worth that massive contract.

Wow, Scherzer is a monster.

 As i posted earlier, teams in the top 10 of save percentages the last 5 years are 6x more likely to make the playoffs than those in the bottom 10. There's few stats with more clarity than that.

Interesting stat Grjas, but not as clear as you make it out to be - teams with a shot at the playoffs are also more likely to pay for a proven closer, for one thing.  Not denying that the bullpen could use an upgrade,

"He's the best I've ever seen." This was uttered hyperbolically, no doubt in the throes of unabashed enthusiasm, by the Nationals colour man (FP Santangelo?).

Factoid: this was only Scherzer's third career complete game.

"....That's a high leverage situation and calls for Hendriks...."

Hendriks had thrown 32 pitches in 2.1 innings on Wednesday and Thursday.  Theoretically he was available today, but perhaps Gibbons is trying to avoid over-using him.  To my mind, it speaks to the shortage of reliable high-leverage relievers beyond Osuna and Cecil and Hendriks.  The team can't be using those three in every high-leverage situation that comes along -- especially when those three are also prone to wobbling.

Scherzer's last two starts: 18 IP, 1 H, 26 K 1 W. He's retired 54 of the last 57.

Twice this season, his ERA has ballooned up above 2.00 (2.11 on May 6, 2.13 on June 9.) That last was after back-to-back starts against the Jays and Yankees, by the way. The AL East can still hit, at least.

Glad he's in the other league, anyway.

Scherzer is far and away winning the battle of the big starting pitcher free agents of last off-season. Lester has been just OK this year, while Scherzer has been dazzling.

Three baserunners in two complete games. Only guy to do better? Pud Galvin.

Yup, Pud Galvin. With Buffalo, in 1884. When it took six balls to walk a hitter, and the pitcher was 50 feet from the plate.

Stieb was close... Sep 24 vs Cleveland 1 hit 2 walks, Sep 30 vs Baltimore 1 hit 1 walk.  So 2 hits, 3 walks.  Both hits with 2 out in the 9th.  I remember being in Tiger Stadium when the 2nd game happened.  The scoreboard said Steib had a no-hitter with 2 out in the 9th and waited forever it seemed before telling us he lost it (pre-internet, pre-smartphone days).  That was a painful wait.  But at least I was comfortable stretched out over 3 rows in the upper deck CF.  I miss old Tiger Stadium it was an amazing park.

Hendriks had thrown 32 pitches in 2.1 innings on Wednesday and Thursday. Theoretically he was available today, but perhaps Gibbons is trying to avoid over-using him.

Yeah, the problem is using Hendriks in those games in the first place. The first one, anyway. Hendriks entered that one with a 7-1 lead, one out, none on in the 8th. (The second one he entered with a 3-0 lead to start the 8th.) Gibbons does the same thing with Osuna, bringing him in with 5-0 leads and whatnot. It's not a smart way to manage the bullpen.

while Colabello has been a revelation with the bat his time in left field really needs to come to an end.

It really does. Or at least platoon him out there with Carrera. You can DH him other times, or use him as a pinch-hitter. But putting Colabello in the OF so that Navarro can DH is just asinine.

During our series with the Mets, the Mets broadcast showed a clip of Joe Carter's World Series homer, which then led Ron Darling and Keith Hernandez (their broadcasters) to discuss a recent YouTube video featuring Lenny Dykstra and Mitch Williams. This is quite the thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpdKkHodpcE

But putting Colabello in the OF so that Navarro can DH is just asinine.

It reminds me of Troy Glauss playing SS so that Hillenbrand could play 3rd.

I'm sure the dependability of bullpen has been called into question again, given what's happened over the last couple of games.

On the questions was how much of Papelbon's salary would Philly have to absorb to get a decent prospect back? Well I think we may have an answer, or at least a point of reference after today's Braves/Diamondbacks trade. For Atlanta to take on a little over $10mil in salary commitments due to Arroyo, the Braves get Touki Toussaint.

In other words, if the Phillies give us Papelbon and a good prospect, we'd give them, say, Ryan Goins.

Well, Papelbon's probably got more value than an injured Arroyo, so I don't know if it's perfectly analogous (though he's also owed more), but yeah -- that helps put Papelbon's value in perspective.

The Braves just essentially paid 10m for Touki Toussaint - interesting - I've been impressed with what the Braves new FO has done & surprisingly the team is still competitive this year.

It doesn't put Papelbon's value in perspective at all. First, the Phillies probably aren't as skint and insane as the D'backs. Second, Toronto, unlike Atlanta, don't want to help pay anyone's salary.

"Second, Toronto, unlike Atlanta, don't want to help pay anyone's salary."

There is precedent that says the AA Jays are willing to do this. They choked down over $7M on Mark Teahen as part of the price to acquire Colby Rasmus.

iirc jays have done that a number of times. the latest being eating the difference between happ and saunders salaries.

Times have changed it seems to me. Our payroll is much higher now than when we took on $7mil for Teahen and gave Philly $6 mil in the R Halladay trade.

Justin Nicolio had his Marlin debut last night, spinning 7 shutout innings vs DeSclafani's Reds, though unsurprisingly, with only 2 K's.

By my count, that's 6 SP's currently on MLB rosters from AA's drafts, plus 3 more that have had starts in the majors.

Dyson is the only reliever on an MLB roster and Pillar the only current position player, with Pompey also having reached the majors.

Then there's Matt Boyd who seems to be knocking on the door.

One last name to mention is Joe Musgrove, AA's value pick from 2011. He seems to have overcome his shoulder injury issues and is having quite the season. 67 innings of 2.13 ERA over 3 levels, currently in AA. What's astounding though is his BB/K ratio. Well, maybe not the K part - he has a very good 71 in those 67 innings - but he's combined that with only walking an almost otherwordly 3 (three!) batters all year.

Supposedly sent money to LA in the Vernon Wells trade.

How much money was sent to LAA in the V Wells deal? $5 mil?

Richardi traded Shannon Stewart to Minnesota for B Kelty, I believe, with us paying part of Stewart's salary. Stewart then helped the Twins make the playoffs.

I do not know how much if anything we paid for that catcher to get the draft pick. I believe in 2011.

Both Pat Tabler and Joe Siddal make David Laurila's excellent (as usual) Sunday Notes blog.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/sunday-notes-braves-billy-burns-3b-coaches-more/

That was excellent due diligence by the Braves to land Touissant. That's a really good trade for them, in my opinion.

And their offseason deals in which they shed salary are looking quite good, and potentially allowed them to assume Arroyo's salary in this deal.

There has been much talk about trading for pitchers, both starters and relievers.  There are some internal options that might change the needs.  Aaron Sanchez had his best outing of the year and has now thrown 66 innings but is on the DL. He will likely need some rehab appearances.  It is an opportune time to consider whether you still want him to try to be a starter.  His two issues are durability and control.  Neither has gone away.  Matt Boyd, unlike Sanchez and Norris, has essentially had a full minor league apprenticeship with about 25 high minors starts.   He is 24 years old and by all accounts has taken a step forward this year.  Norris now has 21 high minors starts and his control has been getting better over the last four starts. 

A rotation of Hutchison, Buehrle, Dickey, Boyd and Norris and a bullpen of Sanchez, Cecil, Osuna, Hendriks, Loup, and Delabar would be interesting.  Perhaps the club will be set up to do that next month.  The nice thing about that set up is that it would take the heat off  Osuna and Sanchez with four RH arms capable of handing high leverage work.  I know that the organization and many here still believe that Sanchez can be an ace starter, and there is no doubt that it is a possibility.  But, it is not clear at all to me that it is worth pushing for that possibility; the injury gives the chance to reconsider. 

Mike, I was thinking similarly with Sanchez, although he could still be in line for a starting spot next year. I'd still ieave Norris (or Boyd, stats favour Boyd, but let the org decide) in AAA, unless/until Estrada falters or there is an injury.

My reasoning is Sanchez would help the pen immensely, Estrada slightly. Our problem seems to be the closer position, the 6th-7th guys we have seem to be doing no worse and probably better than a lot of teams 6th-7th guys.

Rarely read ROTOGRAPHS - too busy blathering on this board to play fantasy. But I checked this out today:

http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/the-daily-grind/

Contains 2 awesome tidbits.
First, something that I never would have guessed - in the GB/FB section: "ground ball hitters perform better against fly ball pitchers and vice versa"

Second, the 98 with movement GIF. Remember people on Sickels' site downplaying Cole in the minors because his FB was too straight.

nice looking lineup today:

ss reyes
3b donaldson
rf bautista
dh encarnacion
1b smoak
c martin
lf carrera
cf pillar
2b goins

i'm surprised by how rarely we've seen this obvious lineup.

p.s. Colabello in june: 71pa, 105wrc+, -4.6df, -0.2war

MG, you see improvement in Norris' control, but not Sanchez's? I think I can see some bias at play.

I was watching the Mariners last night. Smith came in instead of Rodney to close the game. It changed the whole makeup and feel of the game IMO. It is good to know that when you come to the bullpen in the 9th, the door gets closed.

Pitching is going to be the burden for the Jays. If they had just a little pitching (middle of the pack), with this offense, they would be unbeatable.

I hate to say it, but I predict they Jays are going to have a hard time with the Rays next week. Good pitching > good hitting.

Saw the score before I switched on the game and turned it on at 7-0 with the thought they weren't out of it.

While typing this comment Pillar went yard... amazing.

This team has become really fun to watch after a couple of frustrating seasons.

Orioles getting payback for all their bloop singles.

Jays are fun.  A lot like 1993 when no matter what the starter did you always felt the Jays could pull it off.  Guess that might be it for Copeland.  Who is next?  Norris, Boyd, or someone else?

Gibby got some grief on this board yesterday for not using a pinch hitter for Pillar, some saying he should have been pinch hit for twice. Going into todays game, Pillar has the 3rd highest batting average in the majors in June

391/403/563 , 169 wRC+, and might have improved on that today :)

BTW, very impressed with Schultz today, which means there will be calls on this board to send him down and bring up a fresh arm :(

Has Copeland been sent down yet?

After 4 innings, 15 of the 18 starting players have scored.

"Has Copeland been sent down yet?"

I've already called him a cab.

It's certainly the end for Coleman. Hopefully Baltimore keeps Tillman around.

Can't wait to see who will get the call.

Ezequiel Carrera singles on a soft ground ball to catcher Matt Wieters.

I missed the replay. Was that what they call a bunt?

".....BTW, very impressed with Schultz today, which means there will be calls on this board to send him down and bring up a fresh arm...."

Schultz will stay.  He's been too good to demote.  But they will need fresh arms.  Copeland will be demoted, which allows one fresh arm to be brought up.  I think Travis is not quite ready to return to the majors, so they don't need to demote a reliever to make room for him, just yet anyway especially since Kawasaki is around.  Let's see what happens in the next four innings, but I would think Tepera could be demoted.  And it's clear that Gibbons doesn't trust Coke very much at all, so he could be DFA'd at some point soon.  So there are ways to make room to promote 2 or 3 fresh arms if the Jays need them.

When AA drove all the way to Syracuse to see Matt Boyd pitching a couple days ago, I wonder if he knew that the Jays would need a replacement for Copeland soon.  It might be his time now.

If neither Boyd nor Norris are deemed ready yet:  a review of the Buffalo rotation would suggest that Doubront probably has the strongest case for an emergency start in Toronto, on the basis of his FIP and peripherals.

Suddenly an 8 man pen seems like it might be too small.  IF this goes to extras we'll be needing a hitter to pitch at some point.

Calling BS on Buck Martinez... He was talking about how he didn't have the nerve, as a manager, to bring in a lefty against Edgar Martinez, who didn't hit lefties as well as righties. Except he did. His career OPS splits were 982/917.

Yes, yes. I should be watching the game on mute. Maybe I'll watch the extra innings on mute, even the innings Muni is forced to pitch.

Edgar Martinez, who didn't hit lefties as well as righties.

Not over his career, but in Buck's one full season as the manager, Edgar really did have a reverse split.

Not over his career, but in Buck's one full season as the manager, Edgar really did have a reverse split.

I remember the Strat-O-Matic card. And in Strat that year, Martinez did see a lot of LHP. But life isn't Strat-O-Matic. Numbers in Buck's hands are like sharp scissors in a small child's hands: a perfect recipe for self-harm.

Navarro pinch-hitting for Goins? I guess Gibbons prefers Navarro vs. Matusz instead of Valencia vs. O'Day.

Numbers in Buck's hands

It's all very strange. Buck is certainly correct that if he had brought in a LH to pitch to Edgar and it didn't work - well, there would have been just a little second-guessing. (That is the very textbook definition of a managerial blunder: 1) a move that goes against the conventional wisdom 2) at a key part of the game 3) that doesn't work.)

So he ignored what the numbers were telling him. And he was entirely correct to do so, of course, because the numbers represented a one-year blip (Edgar was his usual lefty-mashing self the year before and the year after.) He must have thought hard about it at the time, though - it was fifteen years ago and he talked about it like it happened last week. (Granted, baseball players often have amazing recollections of game details.)

I guess Gibbons prefers Navarro vs. Matusz instead of Valencia vs. O'Day.

That actually seems like a no-brainer to me.

Night and day watching the Jays pitch with Martin behind the plate and Arencibia. Good grace, JP Arencibia was a terrible catcher.

What happened there?  That looked like a double play ball.

At least it won't be a one-run loss.

Not so fast, Chuck.  There's a half-inning to play.

There may have been miscommunication between Reyes and Kawasaki.   But let's face it, Cecil had already walked two hitters in the inning, which a closer just shouldn't do.  And then the two hits, even if one of them shouldn't have been a hit.  So that's now 12 baserunners (and counting) in the 9th inning in the last three days.  The bullpen numbers today will look good because Schultz had a good outing, but the problem is the high-leverage relievers.  They're not doing what they're supposed to be doing.   I'm not sure how much longer Cecil should be given the 9th inning.  He's better as a situational pitcher.
 

Orioles aren't done yet.

Having to give the ball to Tepera in the 9th inning is really the ultimate comment on Cecil's ineffectiveness in this series.

Dale Scott's been what, maybe 50-50 on his calls? Yeesh.

Cecil was ineffective (the walks again were frustrating), but Gibbons left him in after Flaherty's triple to face Lough.  After he retired Lough, Gibbons pulled him because there was a right-handed batter coming up, it was a 3 run game, he had thrown a lot of pitches and they do need him in Tampa. 

How is Buffalo's bullpen doing? Maybe we can swap the whole works!

"....he had thrown a lot of pitches...."

Cecil threw 33 pitches today and 32 pitches on Friday. With those 65 pitches, he managed to retire a grand total of 5 hitters.  That's the very definition of ineffectiveness.  Over the past 5.2 innings, he's given up 10 earned runs.  Instead of shutting down games, he's been pouring fuel on the flames.  It's difficult to see how Gibbons can keep running him out in the 9th inning any more.   Osuna, the other high-leverage guy, has been mediocre in the past 10 games too:  the opposition has a .822 OPS against him in that span, and he's allowed 13 baserunners in 8.1 innings.  Delabar or Hendriks might be a temporary stopgap for the 9th inning, but I really hope Anthopoulos is accelerating his efforts to trade for a reliever.

As I semi-predicted, the Jays have optioned Copeland, Tepera and Coke to the Bisons.   (Didn't realize that Coke still had options.)   Three fresh arms to be promoted tomorrow, presumably including a starter and two relievers.  Start your speculation now.

Reyes never moved to that ball in the ninth with authority. I don't know if he didn't see it or misjudged it but he never thought it was his ball. Obviously that was an error.

Gibbons is going to have to reassess his bullpen and reallocate his trust. I don't envy him this since there are no "most obvious" moves to make.

His three favoured relievers are all faltering. Early season golden boy Osuna has given up 7 runs in his last 8 innings, and Loup and Cecil now have ERAs of 4.88 and 5.96. The frontrunners to take over the highest leverage work, Delabar and Hendriks, both come with red flags, but at this point there's seemingly no harm in making the transition. The current late-inning formula just isn't working.

A Coke (but not Phil Coke) to China fan.

Correcting my last post:  the Jays obviously don't need a starter for another 4 days, so they might promote 2 relievers and Travis.  Then Kawasaki goes down when Dickey returns, and then a reliever is replaced by a starter when it's time to fill Copeland's spot in the rotation.  So three new arms ultimately, but maybe not immediately.

Candidates for those 3 new pitching positions would have to include Doubront, Jenkins, Rasmussen, and of course Boyd and Norris if they are judged ready for rotation spots.

Cecil's weekend of work gives a whole new meaning to baseballs usage of the word fireman. Supposed to put them out, not start them.

Note:  there is currently one open spot on the Jays 40-man roster.   Jenkins and Rasmussen and Norris are already on the 40-man roster.  Doubront and Boyd are not.   In the unlikely event that the Jays need to create another spot on the 40-man roster, Jimenez could be transferred to the 60-day DL, since he is probably out for the season.  The Jays could also create spots on the 40-man roster by dropping a player like Hynes, Hague, Coke or Tepera, since any of those four would have a good chance of passing through waivers unclaimed.

I'm wondering if we are about to see the first trade of the season now.  The pen is killing the Jays this weekend - 2 more wins could've happened.  Milwaukee for K-Rod would be nice, sucking Will Smith (LH) out of them too would be a 'woohoo'.  For both I'd give up a decent prospect, not Norris but something decent.  Also see if they want Navarro as their catching is very, very poor right now.  Doubt AA would be that lucky though.

Milwaukee is 20 games under .500. I can't see them taking Navarro unless he is entirely paid for.

Start your speculation now.

I'm wondering if we are about to see the first trade of the season now.  [...]  Milwaukee for K-Rod would be nice

Three Canadians are playing for Milwaukee higher minor league teams: RP Jim Henderson, 2B/3B Pete Orr,  2B/3B Taylor Green. In additional to what would be offered from the Jays such as Navarro and prospects, why not getting them for more chances of featuring more Canadians as Jays' chance of making the postseason is likely.

RP Wilton Lopez for Jim Henderson ----> both are currently on 7-day DL
2B/SS Ramon Santiago for Pete Orr ---> both veterans
OF Caleb Gindl for Taylor Green --> both were unsuccessful for their teams so far in this season. Could a swap of teams -- Gindl going back to his last team --- help their performances ?

Also, any team with Johnathan Lucroy isn't going to have any interest in Navarro.

So saving Navarro for future trades ?

Aramis Ramirez is aging in Milwaukee. Could Jays exploit this situation by trading them a 3B looking for ML PAs ? Somebodies do not like that I spell out Matt Hague....

Just to be fully comprehensive in my list of potential candidates to join the Jays tomorrow:  the other possibilities are Redmond and Wolf.   Both would need to be added to the 40-man roster.  Both, along with Francis, would also be candidates for Copeland's next spot in the rotation on June 30, assuming that Norris and Boyd are not deemed ready yet.  Personally I'd like to see Doubront get the spot start on June 30, but that's just me.   Judging by past Jays tradition, Redmond or Francis might be somewhat more likely.

Start your speculation now.

Someone mentioned Shawn Marcum in Cleveland Triple A, who had started for the Indians. How about trading Redmond for Marcum and cash consideration ? Redmond goes to a new organization which needs starting pitching. Marcum provides veteran relief pitching and spot start if needed.

I'm in favour of Boyd getting the call, not sure if AA agrees, but he's definitely worth a DFA for a Hynes types.  the other arms are likely to be 40 man types - Jenkins is good in this role.

Redmond = Marcum, so why bother?

also in favour of Boyd getting the start

Has Sanchez been ruled out?

Gibbons has apparently definitively ruled Sanchez out of the starting in the middle of this week. There is expected to be an update on his status on Monday.

The club could skip his spot, with the offday on Thursday, and not need a 5th starter until June 30th.

Sanchez will throw Monday for the 1st time since going on the DL, per ESPN.

There's been talk that Sanchez will probably need one or two rehab games.  That's why I've been assuming that he won't be ready for the June 30 start in Copeland's place.  If he's only today beginning to pitch seriously, he'll presumably need a couple weeks to get ready for a regular start in the majors.  I guess it's still conceivable that he could be ready for June 30.  Seems unlikely to me, however.

Redmond = Marcum

Marcum might have some life left in him if transitioned to the pen.

Redmond is still having a rough year. Francis is only an option if you're facing a lineup full of left handed bats. For 1 start, I'd let Wolf take the mount. I'd give Boyd at least a month in Buffalo. For more than 1 start, maybe Doubront.

Been looking at the bullpen and maybe things aren't as bleak as they seemed after the 2 meltdowns this past weekend.

Install Osuna as the closer. Not as good as early in the season, but meltdowns have been few and far between. Very little platoon splits (crucial for a closer since teams will pinch hit). Best pure stuff in the pen. Only given up one HR (to Giancarlo). Negatives - 20 yrs old, scary 72.8 FB%.

Loup, despite his ERA, shoul be the LH set up. Had command issues early, then went on a tear. The last 9 appearances prior to this weekend were terrific. 6.1 IP, 0 H, 0 BB, 7 K, 9/3 GB/FB outs. I missed Saturdays game, but yesterday, he came in to a 2 on, 1 out situation. and induced a double play grounder. Next inning was a K and groundout before Snider cued a decent pitch for a soft single that looked to catch a seam in the turf, bounce almost sideways and end up as a "Triple to deep centre".

Torn between Delabar and Hendriks for the RH setup. Both have pitched well. Hendriks has better peripherals, but has gone from terrific to horrible the higher the leverage. A real mental thing or SSS? I'm not sure.

That leaves Schultz, who has pitched well despite weak peripherals and Cecil, who's having command problems and may benefit from some low leverage work to regain his mojo.

Plus whoever gets called up for, hopefully, low leverage work. Notice Jenkins has a 0.50 ERA over his last 10 games/18 IP. He has given up 20 hits and only struck out 11 in that span, but also only walked 1 batter.

Redmond is still having a rough year.

How about let him regaining his form within some other Triple A team ? Why Buffalo ? Is Marcum more helpful now? Are the Jays' coaches confident of Redmond regain his starting pitching form ? If not, by selling Redmond for Marcum, the Jays shall earn some extra cash: let the Indians develop Redmond who is not much a prospect at his age.

Milwaukee for K-Rod would be nice
Somebodies do not like that I spell out Matt Hague....

Hague can be a PTBNL in the trade for K-Rod and become a Brewers after this season Triple A AllStar game which Hague has realistic chance to make it.

Milwaukee for K-Rod would be nice
Somebodies do not like that I spell out Matt Hague....

First haiku, then senryu and now slam poetry.  Which does make sense for a baseball website. 

Redmond and Rasmussen up, Dickey to be reactivated off bereavement leave per the Jays reporters.

Poor Chad Jenkins, how can he be behind Redmond on the depth chart?

Rasmussen has the best upside as a third lefty IMO, but those walks are troublesome.

Poor Chad Jenkins, how can he be behind Redmond on the depth chart?

Could be that a recent performance by a "pitch to contact" type has left the organization leery of the ilk (except for those with 3000 innings of success with the stratagem).

Presumably these are short-term moves to provide support for the Tampa series.  Redmond vs. Jenkins for the 7th/8th spot in the bullpen is not one of the pressing issues of our time.  Personally, I'd go with Jenkins at this point.  Redmond's control hasn't been great so far this year, and that drives me nuts...

It's a little odd to see Dickey activated a day earlier than necessary.  But I guess they didn't need a 9-man bullpen today, with the two fresh arms arriving. 

I don't know the ins and outs of the CBA rules, but I'm guessing a one day promotion costs the team around $5000 once you factor in travel expenses.

Well, that's a different lineup.  Donaldson, Martin and Goins get the day off against a RHP and Bautista DHs.  The result is Colabello in left-field and Carrera in right, Encarnacion at first base, Kawasaki at second base, Valencia at third base and Navarro catching and batting cleanup. 

It is hard to understand why you would make all of those moves in one game.  If you are going to rest Donaldson (a good idea), why would you give Martin the day off (when he's had plenty of time off and there is no game Thursday?  It appears to me that they are showcasing Navarro.  Maybe Bautista's shoulder is barking again which has made necessary some of the other moves.

Maybe Bautista's shoulder is barking again which has made necessary some of the other moves.

Given the intensity he showed in the Baltimore games, and the number of run-scoring balls hit to him that he had to throw back, I wouldn't be surprised that he over-exerted himself trying to throw out anyone and everyone and re-injured the shoulder. Was actually thinking that on one of those plays: that throw looked like you really tried to throw super-hard - I hope your shoulder is still ok..

Navarro bats cleanup tonight. Mr. Gibbons does love him some Navarro.

I was at the game on Saturday. It looked as if Martin took a beating behind the plate. He was also worked pretty hard on Sunday. He might be in need of a rest.

Mr. Gibbons does love him some Navarro

...even though he doesn't catch the knuckler.
/ obscure Wire reference

He was also worked pretty hard on Sunday. He might be in need of a rest.

I'm not arguing against Navarro getting a start (Martin's current AB pace was last matched at age 26). I just wonder how Navarro merits the cleanup spot.

I'm guessing a one day promotion costs the team around $5000 once you factor in travel expenses.

Good information can be factored in for future transaction discussion if true. A triple A affiliate in Buffalo pays benefit again over Las Vegas.

Navarro bats cleanup tonight. Mr. Gibbons does love him some Navarro.

In retrospect, why not? :D