wow, that was quick.

i will be disappointed by anything less than a crushing sweep. not even a tight sweep is good enough.

I hate losing to the Yankees and Red Sox.

Please, don't make me hate.... :)

ugly, it's the bottom of the 1st in the 1st game. You disappointed yet?

Well that wasn't the best start.

they're just making it interesting. will be more fun winning after we tease them a bit.

Best offense against the worst pitching. Yeah, don't switch the dial quite yet.

but i have to say the pitch selection to Bogaerts and ortiz was weird. xander can't hit soft away and they go hard in, ort can't hit hard in and they go soft away.

not that it really mattered given the number of meatballs hutch served.

hutch is pretty good at blowing up real good.

How many runs before Gibbons says 'enough' for Hutch?  8 in 3 is a lot of runs and seems to be the limit.  After the 1st I figured he'd be done with the 8 man bullpen but I guess they had to see how many he could give up first.  Sigh.  5-0 is reachable, 8-1 is much harder.

"hutch is pretty good at blowing up real good"

can't remember him ever being on farm film celebrity blowup, though

Gibby leaves Hutch in to get pythagoras more in line with reality.

love using that little league wall against them.

now come on, meat, make a game of this.

king felix gave up 8 in the 1st tonight, so take solace, drew.

"can't remember him ever being on farm film celebrity blowup, though"

the saying is so ingrained in my mind...but i would never have been able to come up with the name. great call.

man he caught that at full extension. no tv dive there.

alright, meat, do better this time.

oh man this would be so sweet.

come on donaldson be a hero.

I am not sure who has had the rougher evening, Hutchison or Jeff Kellogg.

i think he's out.

oh what a slide. he's safe.

Regardless of the eventual outcome, the comeback has at the very least made the game thread at SonsOfSamHorn.net an entertaining read.

oh my god. lmao.

love this team so much.

but the unthinkable just happened - i actually kinda feel bad for these sad sox. what is wrong with me?

7 run inning.....and still nobody out.

Canadian Rakin' tastes delicious.

Anything interesting going on?

ugly, we're not worthy!

How much did the Sox pay for Panda?

That was some bad directing there after the Martin triple, there was no Farrell face shot, I wanted to see the Farrell face.

Relentless.

I'm watching the Red Sox feed, and this pretty much sums it up from their perspective...

Remy: I can't believe what I'm watching, here.
Orsillo: This could be Bottom.

Holy expletive.

Nice piece of hitting by Martin.  And then Smoak puts an exclamation point on it.  How satisfying can an inning be?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Never count this O out of it.

"Farrell face shot, I wanted to see the Farrell face"

heh.

the lantern jaw looks confused.

Colabello 152wrc+
Smoak 148wrc+

anyone still missing lind?

before the last 3 AB's, 3 pitchers, 9 runs, 8 hits, 0 outs.

Beautiful.  Now can they hold it?

Don't forget Estrada with a solid 102+ ERA thrown in there.

Modern day version of murderer's row. Gotta love the Red Sox fans cheering the first out of the inning.

Holy Smoak.

Notice how our hitters made sure the game went from low leverage one way to low leverage the other?

"Regardless of the eventual outcome, the comeback has at the very least made the game thread at SonsOfSamHorn.net an entertaining read."



choice quote: "Pablo Sandoval and Hanley Ramirez will make a combined $40 mil this year and so far have been worth -1 war. That's neat."

we traded for Donaldson 4 days after they signed Sandoval.

god i love schadenfraude.

lesson: sometimes trading good young talent is better than signing free agents.

Martin was my first choice among available FAs for the Jays last fall. Have to say, I'm pretty much loving life at the moment.

Yankees losing 11-3 in the 8th.

Save situation!

Smoak's average is up to .278! I would not be surprised if we don't start seeing him more.

With Travis and Saunders coming back soon, I can't say that for bats, the Jay need much.

Oh, and has Rob Faulds forgotten what little bit about baseball he ever knew? He's like the uncle visiting from overseas who enjoys sports but needs the game of baseball explained to him.

I enjoyed Matt Devlin filling in for Martinez last summer. I'll assume that he wasn't available this year. And neither were the other hundred people who were asked.

Smoak is swinging well & being extremely productive with respect to RBI's/AB's. Edwin doesn't look like Edwin at the dish, if he's compensating for his left shoulder injury it may be wise to shut him down for 15 days.
I love Gibby bringing in Cecil for 4 outs.

Walking batters with a 13-8 lead in Fenway. Ugh.

Lovely curve to K Napoli.

I LOL'd at the Rob Faulds comments. Seriously tho, even Jamie Campbell would be better. Devlin was great.

Oh, mercy!
That game was Fenway baseball in a nutshell.

Holy crap, this is starting to feel less like a garden-variety winning streak and more like the start of something special...

Osuna helps Cecil get a save opportunity. Now a slightly less atrocious 7-17.

what a fricken win that was.

a letdown loss to break the streak and slink back to .500 against the hated sox woulda been a real nutpunch.....but instead it turns into the best win in.....years?

awesome.

Are we having fun yet?

I said 'that was fun' in my comment above but it didn't show.

Made it interesting, especially with the walks, but yep.

"real nutpunch"... Love it.

Baseball is exciting when your offense can act like it is playing slopitch.....

Huge W for the Jays. This offence is incredible right now! Is now the time for AA to bring in an impact bullpen arm? If yes, who would you like to target?

I was looking at runs scored.

The Jays have 325 runs scored.
The next closest team has 275 runs. that is 18% higher!

Unfortunately, they are 25/30 in ERA.

I've seen many bat-around innings, but I honestly don't know if I've ever seen a "score-around inning" when all nine score a run. Have the Jays ever done it?

Turns out they did it in '99 against Detroit.

Actually mind boggling. Imagine getting your second AB in an inning with nobody on base and nobody out???

The Blue Jays have a World-Class Offense. They barely have an average Rotation and it screams for the acquisition of a front-line Starter. Is that going to happen? I won't hold my breath. The Bullpen is below average and that's being very generous. At least two top relievers are needed badly. But to expect more than one, that just dreaming. But if only one Reliever is acquired, it needs to be a late-inning stud. My message to A. A., soon.

"....they're just making it interesting. will be more fun winning after we tease them a bit....."

That comment, from up-thread in the early innings when the Jays were trailing badly, is an example of the confidence that the Jays offence is generating among us these days.  As Russell Martin said after the game:  “Whenever we’re down from here on out, we know that we’ve come back from 8-1, so being down is no longer an excuse for us."

Favorite statistic:  even if you drop the entire month of April from the Jays scoring, they'd still have more runs than the Phillies and Mariners this season.

Last time I checked, the average score of a Jays victory this season was something like 7 to 2.  When they win, they win big.  Now they just need to reduce those annoying one-run losses -- and they're beginning to do that too.

As for the pitching: Hutchison is probably the most likely Jays pitcher to bounce back from this, since he has a history of allowing a few bad games among his many excellent games.  So I'm not too worried about the rotation.  And the strong outing from Schultz is a reminder that the Jays can still find some useful pitchers among those many depth pieces that they've picked up over the past year. Arguably the Jays should demote him and call up another Buffalo reliever for added depth, since Schultz probably won't be pitching again in this series, but I guess there isn't time to fly someone from Buffalo to Boston in time for an early-afternoon start.  But after wearing out the Red Sox bullpen last night, and having an 8-man pen today, the Jays should be okay for today's game anyway.  But long-term, as we've discussed in other threads, the Jays still need at least one more experienced reliever who is likely to be reliable in high-leverage work (not necessarily just the 9th inning) -- whether it is Papelbon or someone else.  It should be easier to do than acquiring Hamels or Cueto.

That was Hutchison's 7th road start this season. His road ERA is now 9.46. And he's undefeated (1-0) away from home.

Hutch's ERA is 5.75, but his FIP is far lower at 4.18.

Papelbon or someone else.

Evidently the Reds are now listening to people about Aroldis Chapman. The Nats are sniffing around. He's definitely someone else.

The Jays have 325 runs scored.
The next closest team has 275 runs. that is 18% higher!

Unfortunately, they are 25/30 in ERA.

I bet that didn't improve today.

Oh, well, can't have everything.

Just imagine what it must be for Stroman to watch those games.

Hutch's ERA is 5.75, but his FIP is far lower at 4.18.

That was true last year as well. It could be just one those things, or not. There are some pitchers that can consistently outperform or underperform their FIP.

I was pleased that Gibbons brought on Cecil to face Ortiz in the eighth.  Fenway Park has been a nightmare for Cecil over his career, and it's very good that he had a serious exposure session (even if it was difficult).  I hope that Gibbons follows through on last night's move with some higher leverage work for Hendriks. 

some higher leverage work for Hendriks

You can see that he's inching in that direction, but he's not entirely sure yet. He's cautious but seems to be wanting to dip his toe into the ocean. Hopefully Hendriks can reward him right away and not get moved to the back of the bus.

This was the third time the Jays have won a game they've trailed by 7 runs in the past 3 years. All other teams combined have done it twice.

That's a great GIF of Mookie Betts that was posted earlier (but seems to have disappeared?). The swing Justin Smoak put on that ball to deep CF was just beautiful. Smoak is now hitting .259/.351/.482 vs. RHP, and the lineup looks just fine with him at 1B if Edwin needs a breather.

Ryan Goins hits a lot of balls to deep-ish LF that die out there; he'd probably look like a very good hitter playing for the Red Sox.

The Jays are now at 5.45 runs per game. The next closest team in baseball, the Yankees, are averaging only 4.63 runs per game. That's remarkable. What I liked most about the 7th inning explosion was that they were making solid contact and not relying on the HR till Smoak capped the inning with a tater. There were some misplays by the Sox on the corners, but good things happen when you put the ball in play. Martin's clutch bases clearing triple is likely a grand slam at home.

There are flights every morning from Buffalo to Boston, the drive from Buffalo to Boston is 6 hours, and the Bisons did not play last night, so if the Jays really wanted they could have easily replaced Schultz with a different reliever. Ryan Tepera not getting into a 7 run deficit in the 3rd inning is an indication to me that the 8 man bullpen was unnecessary to begin with, but they would've likely needed to swap out an infielder for a reliever today to make Gibbons feel comfortable so who the heck cares. Not using Tepera yesterday allows them to reward Schultz for last night by not pulling the rug out from under him after pitching well across 3 innings to keep the Jays in the game. The bullpen should be all systems go today, but it would be nice if the offence kept rolling so Gibby can stay away from Osuna.

Gibbons did have Hendriks warming up in the 9th, now Liam just needs to hold up his end of the bargain as I can't imagine he gets a lot of rope considering his high leverage performance to date.

Cueto and Chapman are there to be had, into the breach once more Alex!

hmm.what did happen to that gif?

did it break some posting rule?

During this win streak, the Jays have outscored their opponents 70-31. Um, wow.

Boston was pitching to the score.

This series has not been an umpiring clinic.

Ryan Goins hits a lot of balls to deep-ish LF that die out there; he'd probably look like a very good hitter playing for the Red Sox.

No kidding. Entering today's game Goins was hitting .349/.364/.488 at Fenway. I would've guessed over .400...

Dickey is really no more than a #5 sp anymore.

Would you pick up his option for next year then? I'm not sure I would.

wow, even with the Gods of Babip doing their best to screw him, Hendriks still sacks up and gets it done against the meat of their order. beauty.

Babip Gods can't do much when you're striking guys out.

nah. I'm done with dickey.

buehrle i might give a QO to but that depends on his 2nd half.

Three lefties in the pen and Ortiz faces a righty with the bases loaded. And strikes out.

The lefties are for Sandoval. Hendriks' fastball velocity and command are enough trouble for Ortiz.

Why does every routine play surprise Faulds? I think Rogers brought him in to intentionally get me to stop grousing about Martinez. If not, then why? Is there no curling or dressage somewhere requiring a broadcaster?

Here we go! Save situation!

I completely agree Chuck. I think Martinez is in the bottom 10th percentile of announcers, so I was astounded that they found someone worse to replace him.

I really miss Dan Shulman.

I liked what I saw from Loup, and would've left him in for the 11th with Cecil throwing 30 pitches like 18 hours prior. There's now one away though, let's lock this down.

Cecil is the closer, and the thinking, at least among pitchers, is they're more effective when they know their roles.

So who keeps their job longer, Gibby or Farrell?

Uhh, Gibby.  is his job even in danger at all with 10 straight wins?  not giving him credit for the streak or anything, but that's a no contest.

amazing win again.  this team is really rounding into form and i'm fairly confident we make at least one significant deal to improve the roster.

as for options - Dickey gets picked up unless he performs worse than he has thus far, the same for Buehrle and the QO.  Id happily lay money on this - every year people seem to want to turn down options on reasonable contracts (no such thing as a bad one-year deal, right).  anyone still think Lind isn't worth 7 million? 

The bullpen management today was perfect, as far as I was concerned.  Delabar seems to have regained some control and merited the opportunity in a high leverage situation after Hendriks had gone 2 innings. 

It sure would be nice to get 7 innings out of Estrada tomorrow.

Hendriks is a modern Danny Cox, it would seem, with his consistent 2-inning outings. I have no issues with the role. It's just not one you see much of these days.

Bullpen really came through today.

It was great to see Hendriks come through today. BABIP or not, if he had blown another high leverage situation he would likely have been buried at the back of the pen for a long time.

10 games ago, Gibby's job most certainly would have been in jeopardy. Also right around this time 2 years ago, Jays won 11 straight to climb 2 games over .500. A month later, the Jays were 10 games under, another month later 16 under. Stuff can happen. (Don't think it will with this team, but a rash of key injuries and who knows)

As for bad 1 yr contracts, yes there are. Morrow was bought out, Johnson and Rasmus were allowed to leave without QO's.

Big difference between Lind and Dickey. Despite injuries, inability to hit LHP and poor defence, Lind was worth 1.5/2.0 WAR. Definitely worth $7 million. And he's 31 years old.

Dickey has been worth negative value this year by both FG/Bbref and only 10 of 107 qualified pitchers have a worse ERA. And he will be 41 next year - chances of a rebound are slim. The $11 million in savings can be used elsewhere - in fact the Jays may be better off putting some waiver claim into the rotation, with Rogers pocketing the money. (Although you wouldn't do that would you Rogers? Please say you wouldn't.)

That's two excellent games in a row for the bullpen.  They pitched 11.2 innings in the past two games and gave up only 2 runs.  And that's without much contribution from Osuna, probably the best pitcher in the bullpen.  These guys might be a stronger bullpen than I had assumed.  But I still want Anthopoulos to go out and get another good reliever.  If anything, the past two days have demonstrated that a strong bullpen can often spell the difference between victory and defeat. When the bullpen can hold the other team off the board for a few innings, the lineup is usually powerful enough to get something done.

Since Shultz's meltdown vs the Astros, the Jay's middle relievers (those other than Cecil/Osuna) have thrown 15,2 innings and given up 0 runs. Great work.

Also props to 2 very flawed offensive players; Goins and Pillar who keyed each of the 3 big innings the past 2 games. Plus extra props to Pillar for that diving catch yesterday, although Jose was even more significant with his HR saving catch today.

Almost too much good stuff going on to credit everyone.

With this O I'll take 6 innings, 3 runs, 5 Ks, 6 hits and 1 BB from Dickie every single time.

hypobole, I wouldn't have given a QO to either Johnson (although some round here wanted to) or Rasmus, although I wouldve been glad to see him back at around the Houston terms. 

Dickey has been bad, but the normal rules about aging don't apply to knuckleballers.  veteran starters that can eat innings may yet yield a comp draft pick and while it sounds like Buehrle may hang them up, he might also come back to us for a one year QO if we are winning - which i'd be happy with.  the bad one year contracts you mention were injury risks - and sure, it's worth rolling the dice on them sometimes, but you're bound to win some and lose some with that approach.  dickey could easily end up being an inning-eating 4th / 5th guy for several more years, and you never know if he has a bounce back season.  there just isn't a lot of starting on the FA market - although there are a fair number of interesting names next year, admittedly.

AA likes Gibbons, but sure, if the team kept struggling he might have been the scapegoat - but we've just won 10 straight.  that buys you some job security.  you're right though, if the team collapses like last year, he's gonna take the fall.  I agree with you that that's not happening this year though (knocks on wood). 

"Dickey gets picked up unless he performs worse than he has thus far,"

seriously? you think AA is going to willingly pay $12m for a 40yr old coming off a 5.5era season?

Well dickey this year (and the past couple) to me at least, show that even though normal ageing curves don't apply, there still is a curve and end of the road. A #5 simply isn't worth $11 million (12 minus the buyout) - Copeland types can do what he's doing with much more chance of upside and fungibility if things go poorly. And that frees up money elsewhere,

I didn't mention Buehrle because I don't disagree.

More than a few here wanted Gibby gone not long ago and a few may still feel that way. I phrased my original remark as a question, but the answer is clear. Farrell's seat is definitely hotter, despite that WS ring on his finger.

The question is three pronged...
1) Who do we have for 2016 other than Dickey & Buehrle?  Hutchison, Sanchez, Norris.  Estrada is a free agent.  Then you get into kids who wouldn't have 10 starts in the majors yet.
2) What is the cost of getting someone to eat 200 innings with a 90 ERA+ (Dickey at 72 before today, Buehrle at 91)?  More than $12 mil I suspect.
3) Will the Jays trade for another starter who is signed for 2016 or is arb only in 2016?

Those are the big 3 questions for the Jays.  I think they want one of Dickey or Buehrle for 2016.  We'll see what happens going forward.

By letting Dickey walk you avoid that awkward moment when you have 5 or more clearly superior pitchers on the roster and want to bump Dickey to the bullpen but can't because it'll be a scene because he's a Cy Young winner with a big guaranteed contract. It's all politics, Joel. You can probably find a much cheaper #7 starter elsewhere.

I don't know who managed this game or what he's done with John Gibbons, but I like his style.

John, you forgot one Marcus Stroman. the list for next year:

Stroman
Hutch
Osuna
Sanchez
Norris
Hoffman
Castro
Boyd
Harris

+ $30m coming off the books in Buehrle and Dickey.

and paying Estrada $5m to be an "innings eater" / spotholder for the kids makes more sense than picking up Dickey's option.

John, Stroman is back next year. Good teams use minor league retreads as their #5. Osuna will have a year under his belt and should start. Plus if Buehrle and Dickey both leave, AA has $33 million in his back pocket (though a sizeable chunk will have to go to Martin, Josh D, et al.)

As for Dickey to the pen, it may happen this year.

I think that list of kids is a bit overly optimistic as being options for MLB starting rotation next year.

I consider Osuna, Castro, Hoffman, Harris as being not realistic.

Osuna - in bullpen this year, will have to be stretched out and go back to the minors as a starter first (AA/AAA).
Castro - currently DL'ed. Seems more like bullpen arm, but an outside shot if he progresses in AAA as a starter.
Hoffman - Unless he's absolutely dominating, can't see the Blue Jays rushing him.
Harris - Same as Hoffman

Therefore, you're left with Stroman, Hutchison, Sanchez and perhaps Norris and Boyd as possible options depending on their progress at AAA. I'd think you'd want one reliable arm be it Buerhle or Dickey that you have confidence in giving you 3/4 starter type 200 innings.

Yes you might have other arms available like Copeland, Estrada available as back end options. But reliable innings eater is still required until the kids establish themselves with some level of consistency. The old adage being you can never have too much pitching.

at the very worst, the those kids start the year in the AAA rotation. which means they're definitely in the mix for mlb starting duty at some point next year.

Harris and Castro the only ones who would be any lower than that.

and osuna can start in mlb to start the year without needing any stretching out other than spring training, like sanchez this year.

I like Osuna as a potential starter down the road as well. Just don't see it as possibility coming out of camp in 2016. He's in the pen this year and just hasn't build up the innings required for a starter, he's never pitched even 50 innings in any season in the minors. Who knows how much he'll reach in the MLB bullpen, but I suspect it'll be something similar to 50 and far short of 100.

He'll need to build up his stamina as a starter and go through the natural progression of innings build up. Can't go from 50-60 innings to 150+

he might be on an innings limit, but that's no reason to keep him off the teamm

Dickey isn't that far off in performance from other years.  The strike out rate is down, but he's got good years with the Mets with similar rates. The difference might just be an extra home run every other game and that might just be one bad pitch per game. Too early to write him off.

Dickey is walking an additional batter per 9 innings over his salad days with the Mets, in addition to the homer problem.  His line drive rate is also way up.  Opponents are also pulling the ball much more.  In short, he's been hit a lot harder and walking more.  That's a tough combination to deal with.  I think that he might do better in the bullpen with batters less able to prepare for him, but I don't know if he would accept a different role. 

1. I notice people seem pretty pretty pleased with Gibbons' bullpen management when said bullpen throws 5 shutout innings in a tight game.

2. In addition to the usual problems of having a knuckleballer pitch in relief (walks, passed balls, HRs, etc.), the issue's further complicated in our case by Navarro's (seeming) inability to catch Dickey. So you could only use Dickey in games in which Martin is already behind the plate, or else bring them both into the game at the same time (and ruining a day-off for Martin). I suppose with Martin catching 4/5 of the games anyway, it's not a huge impediment, but it would narrow your options in certain games. Once September comes, with Thole up for good, it'd be more manageable. I view Dickey's personal feelings in all this as a less significant issue. He has to do what the team tells him, and even if he's upset about it, well, so what? A bullpen demotion this year means he'll be gone next year anyway. (Similar to the Rasmus situation last September.)

3. Kendall Graveman's starting to make the Donaldson trade look something less than a disaster for Billy Beane. He threw a complete game versus the Angels tonight, losing 1-0, his second really strong outing in a row. Since coming back to the A's on May 23, he's put up these numbers: 32.2 IP, 2.20 ERA, 24K, 8BB.

I can't speak for everyone else about Gibbons, but it was a pleasant surprise to see him let his middle relievers fend for themselves in a tie game against the heart of Boston's order. Hendriks could have hung a slider to Ortiz for a bases-clearing double and I'd be defending the manager. (Okay that's a lie. I would be sitting there bemusedly watching people throw totally unfair post-hoc criticism his way and finding their way to the dark side for the wrong reasons. And feeling a little guilty about not responding. And maybe bashing whoever called for a breaking ball.)

I view Dickey's personal feelings in all this as a less significant issue. He has to do what the team tells him, and even if he's upset about it, well, so what?

... since the effect of a sourpuss in the clubhouse on everyone else's production is impossible to quantify, we can safely assume it is zero.

My thoughts on Dickey:

1) The big inning for the Sox yesterday, 3 runs in the 4th, could have been a lot worse and Dickey deserves some credit that it didn't unravel further. Martin was charged with 2 passed balls and Donaldson bobbled a potential inning-ending double-play ball.

2) If you could expect to get the Dickey of 2013-2014 in 2016, he's definitely worth $12M. That's 220 IP with a 100 ERA+. "Innings eater" is a term that's often thrown around as if said pitchers are fungible, but only about 10 guys in any given season manage to throw that many innings.

3) Dickey of 2013-2014 was better in the second half of the season. It may be too early to say he's washed up.

Justin Smoak struck out 3 times against Buchholz yesterday and got jobbed with a bogus strike call in all 3 of the at-bats.

2nd inning, second-lowest called strike of the day.

4th inning, third-lowest called strike of the day.

6th inning, the only inside pitch called a strike all day.

Not sure how to make pretty hyperlinks for the above. All info from brooksbaseball.net. The home plate ump seemed to have a really good day otherwise, only 1 other pitch outside the zone to a LHH was called a strike.

we can safely assume it is zero

Not necessarily zero -- though it might be. Just "a less significant" issue than some are making it out. If Stroman/Norris/Cueto/somebody is ready to join the rotation, and Dickey is clearly the worst of the six options, and if it's a tight pennant race, then you do what you gotta do. Winning does more for team chemistry than anything anyway.

I'd also cite the Cito mutiny in my defense -- the players in that case weren't interested in protecting the egos of lousy veterans, they wanted to win. I suspect Dickey would find himself in a minority of one were he to be a "sourpuss" and, heck, if worst came to worst, you could release him.

Anyway, we're not nearly at that point yet. As Jonny German points out, he still has plenty of time to put up a decent season. He could well be an important part of next year's rotation.

I can't speak for everyone else about Gibbons, but it was a pleasant surprise to see him let his middle relievers fend for themselves in a tie game against the heart of Boston's order. Hendriks could have hung a slider to Ortiz for a bases-clearing double and I'd be defending the manager

That.  And letting him throw a second inning afterwards.  And bringing on Delabar.  And sticking with Cecil despite the shaky outing the day before.

I've been critical of Gibbons when he goes through 4 relievers in 3 innings with a 5 run lead, even when it "works" perfectly.  This was the opposite of that approach.  Long may it hold. 

If you could expect to get the Dickey of 2013-2014 in 2016, he's definitely worth $12M. That's 220 IP with a 100 ERA+. "Innings eater" is a term that's often thrown around as if said pitchers are fungible, but only about 10 guys in any given season manage to throw that many innings.

I don't think it's likely that he will return to form in 2016 given his age and the broad deterioration of his performance.  It is also the case that ERA+ is not the best measure for him; he allowed many more unearned runs than most pitchers in 2013-14 with passed balls contributing.  Knuckleballers are a different breed- FIP measures are generally of less significance but equally well the distinction between unearned and earned runs is not as helpful.

I have never fully understood the concept of an "inning eater" for a pitcher who has a 5 ERA. I would rather rotate some AAAA guys from Buffalo in the bullpen.

That being said. Yesterday,Dickey was pulled before 100 pitches. If he is going to be our inning eater, let him eat those innings.

Johnny German i agree with you completely on points 2 and 3 (though i might be less willing to give him the whole year to bounce back than you might be)....but as for point 1, I'm long past the point of excusing dickey for passed balls and the like. that's what always happens with the knuckler. that's on him. and then i'd add in the extra stress on the roster and catchers due to the knuckler as another downside that makes it even tougher to accept dickey not being very good.

it's just not worth it unless he's very good.

mike, while i agree that gibbons did well by the rp last night, remember that all the relief IP on friday night were a big reason why he was so patient with the relievers in this one... not to mention that they were in extra innings.

IMO it was the decision to keep hendriks in with the bases jacked in a tie game (well before extra innings was a worry) which was Gibby's one big tough RP call...and i loved it not because i have any problems with him mixing and matching his rp, but only because Hendriks simply was the guy i'd rather have in the high leverage situations because he's earned it. hendriks has really been excellent, and i don't want to see our best rp get lifted in tough situations. he went with one of his best rp in a high leverage tie game 7th inning and trusted him to get it done even after some unlucky dinks got him in trouble. if that had been delebar or tepera or Schultz i a) woulda been mad that they were even in that situation and b) would have absolutely wanted them lifted for a lefty.


on another note, hendriks/martin really confirmed the hutch/navarro pitch selectiins in the 1st innjng on friday were dumb - Hendriks got ort with high heat that ort couldn't come close to, and bogaerts with breaking stuff in the dirt he couldn't lay off of. that is the undisputed book on those two hitters at this point and i still can't figure what hutch/navarro were doing on friday giving ort soft junk outside and xander high heat.

Sanchez will miss another start Tuesday, odd situation.

"on another note, hendriks/martin really confirmed the hutch/navarro pitch selectiins in the 1st innjng on friday were dumb"

But it wasn't Navarro on Friday, it was Martin behind the plate.

'Sanchez will miss another start Tuesday, odd situation."

This is bit disconcerting, hopefully it's not a harbinger of anything serious. Just when Sanchez was making significant strides to turn some doubters and provide the consistency the rotation dearly needs.

That Sanchez news is disturbing...

BUT - so is today's starter for Boston - Eduardo Rodriguez is going to be a stud.This is the guy they got from Seattle (I think) and I was furious when we didn't get him.

I think Ed R may have a Cy Young in his not too distant future... or at least several years of 20+ wins...

Lets postpone his future for at least one game, eh...

Eduardo Rodriguez was traded from Baltimore in the Andrew Miller trade.

And its funny b/c most people were pissed that we didn't get Andrew Miller and wanted to give up a guy like Rodriguez.

As far as clean innings go, that's just about as lucky as you'll get.

I remember Hurst and Tudor and this guy may be the best left-hander the Red Sox have had from the outset of his career.

whoa guys slow down a bit on eating up the latest red sox prospect hype.

Welcome to the big leagues, meat!

Goins, 3 HR blast!!!

Every cylinder is firing.

Please, send up the LHP!

Well, to be fair, he's already gotten 4 outs this innings and has been getting BABIP to death but I'll take it!

There's Mike's over/under of 5 already decided. And there are 5 more innings to go.

heh. my timing was impeccable on that post, if i do say so myself.

and yeah babip was cruel to him but babip usually does that when you can't strike anyone out.

Hello? Regression police. You're under arrest.

Rodriguez was fighting his command in at least three of those innings, and his hit luck was awful. His turbo-changeup makes me picture James Shields with a better fastball. I can see why they're excited... but it's still totally inhumane to feed lefties to this lineup.

Just the BABIP gods having fun. They did give him a .149 in his first 3 starts.

and yeah babip was cruel to him but babip usually does that when you can't strike anyone out.

Please stop making me defend a Red Sox pitcher, haha. His minor league and major league K #'s are just fine.

Off topic, but I'm really liking the job Mike Wilner has been doing filling in the play-by-play for Jerry on the radio. I like Jerry a lot also (when he's in minimum gee-golly mode especially) but his absence has really given Wilner a chance to show his stuff. And it sure beats having to listen to whatever the heck Buck/Tabler are talking about half the time.

LOL Red Sox.

Do we want Farrell to get fired or to keep suffering?

I'm really loving the Red sox these days...... hehehe They must have done something bad to "Murphy" :)

When was the last time Edwin scored from first base on a single? I bet he wasn't tall enough to ride a roller coaster...

"Please stop making me defend a Red Sox pitcher, haha. His minor league and major league K #'s are just fine."

was just talking about today - it's hard to complain about babip when you're nit missing bats.

and as a 2 pitch pitcher eduardo has his work cut out for himself to become a legit mlb starter, even if he looks great furst time through.

Either works for me, though the suffering part is kinda fun for now.

I'm over my temporary insanity and do not feel bad for the sox one bit. they deserve all of this for the flukiest fluke that ever fluked in 2013. they deserve years of this.

and for all those complaining about cola in LF - imagine we were paying hanley $20m to play out there.

and oh yeah....

#CanadianRakin'

Not only do I not feel bad, I am loving every second of this.

Not counting today Pillar .378/.400/.568 over his last 14 games.

Do we want Farrell to get fired or to keep suffering?

Boston fans seem to assume Farrell will be walking the plank any day now, but they seem even more upset with the GM.

Jeez, fellas. Save a little for the Yankees.

imagine we were paying hanley $20m to play out there.

There's also the spectacle of Sandoval playing third like an actual panda bear.

" uglyone - Friday, June 12 2015 @ 06:38 PM EDT (#302544) #
i will be disappointed by anything less than a crushing sweep. not even a tight sweep is good enough."

love this team.

JB21 - Friday, June 12 2015 @ 07:30 PM EDT (#302551) #
ugly, it's the bottom of the 1st in the 1st game. You disappointed yet?

JB21 - Friday, June 12 2015 @ 09:44 PM EDT (#302576) #
ugly, we're not worthy!

don't look now but NY and TB are both losing... we might be in 1st place in an hour.

Rodriguez today looked very much like Sanchez early this year.

heh. rays take the lead as soon as i post tgat.

shut up, me.

Don't start celebrating too soon. It is Fenway

heh.

this would suck.

Innings like this one are good reasons to build 10-run leads.

Some timeless baseball wisdom, expressed here by Ben Ennis, comes to mind:

You shouldn't feel comfortable with a lead at Fenway Park until you're dead and your bones have been discovered by future generations.

Was Gibbons being loyal to Estrada there, giving him a chance for the 5 innings for the official win, when he had already run out of gas and should have been replaced?

bullpen had plenty of work the past couple days. makes sense to push your starter when you have a huge lead.

This is remarkable. The author suggests that the Red Sox consider trading John Farrell (hey, that's how they got him in the first place.) But then he says that perhaps they could deal him to Miami to Dan Haren. Or to Philadelphia for Cole Hamels.

Call me crazy, but that might be asking too much.

Any thoughts on the type of return the Red Sox could expect. Here in the real world.

Hahahahahahaha

I love how he thinks about Jose Fernandez for a second, and then says that would "likely" never fly.

Farrell's worth is somewhere between a garbage can on fire and a bucket of used BP balls.

Was Gibbons being loyal to Estrada there, giving him a chance for the 5 innings for the official win

Sure. It's what managers do. You let him face Ortiz with the 8 run lead. After the HR, it's batter-to-batter until someone gets on or the inning is over.

Jo-Jo Reyes just signed with the Angels.  He'd be a good return for Farrell.

The P-Wing strikes again!

John Farrell has been traded to the Rays along with cash considerations for J.P. Arencibia.

It's baffling enough that the Red Sox wanted Farrell, the idea of being able to trade him away is pure self-delusion.

"....You let him face Ortiz with the 8 run lead...."

Sure, he had a big lead.  But he had allowed 4 of the 5 previous Sox hitters to reach base -- even before the Ortiz HR.  And he hadn't been looking good all day.  To me, when a pitcher begins an inning by allowing 4 of 5 hitters to reach base, and when he is close to 90 pitches in just 4.1 innings, it's a pretty strong warning sign that he's ready to be replaced.  Even with an 8-run lead.   But that's nitpicking, I suppose. 

Jo-Jo Reyes just signed with the Angels.

Gotta admire the persistence there, I suppose. He went 5-15 last year in the International League, Korea, and Mexico.

This just in: Dustin Pedroia Successfully Catches Pop-up.

Any thoughts on the type of return the Red Sox could expect. Here in the real world.

If we're going Marlins, my first thought was Jeff Mathis. I believe his current WAR of -0.0 would be roughly the equivalent of acquiring Farrell.

It's just hysterical that the first name that author mentions is Jose Fernandez. That is a special level of delusional I frankly was not aware existed. 

But that's nitpicking, I suppose.

Nah. Just relentlessly logical.

This is remarkable.

Dude has a twitter account. Calls himself a realist. No mention about being batshit crazy.

What would happen to Ruben Amaro if he traded Hamels for John Farrell? All I can think of is... Witness Protection.

That is a special level of delusional I frankly was not aware existed.

Just check out American Idol auditions on YouTube. There's a planet full of delusion.

I wouldn't give up Ryan Goins for Farrell, that's for sure.

Helps when the Sox have Lonnie playing all three outfield positions.

Send out those lefties... :)

http://offsided.com/r/baseball/FCwUaNY/

you guys might think it's delusional but you'd be surprised at the general level of ridiculous stuff like that even in the mainstream red sox media.

Sure, he had a big lead.  But he had allowed 4 of the 5 previous Sox hitters to reach base -- even before the Ortiz HR.  And he hadn't been looking good all day.  To me, when a pitcher begins an inning by allowing 4 of 5 hitters to reach base, and when he is close to 90 pitches in just 4.1 innings, it's a pretty strong warning sign that he's ready to be replaced.  Even with an 8-run lead.   But that's nitpicking, I suppose. 

If you're worried about losing an 8 run lead, you need a better bullpen.

ESPN tells me Max Scherzer is perfect through 5. Something else to keep an eye on this afternoon.

you need a better bullpen.

It's Fenway, Jake. And if there's one thing everyone's been able to agree on - this team has needed a better bullpen.

I'm beginning to think the Jays might not lose another game this season.

and for all those complaining about cola in LF - imagine we were paying hanley $20m to play out there.

Maybe rest Cola in pitchers parks? 

What does this say about Boston's pitching staff?

Ryan Goins 6/13, 3 doubles, 1 HR, 9 RBI's.

Here would be a nice low-leverage place for Phil Coke to begin his audition.  Can't get much lower-leverage than this, in fact.

Re: Cola and Hanley in LF.

Cola only ended up in left because we lost Pompey to ineffectiveness and Saunders and Bautista to injury.

Hanley in left was "The Plan".

Just check out American Idol auditions on YouTube.

You don't actually check them out, do you? Because that might indicate... well, at the very least that you might have too much time on your hands.

Please tell me we won't see Osuna pitch the 9th.

Man, there are very few things in life that are quite as pleasureable as stomping the crap out of the Red Sox. Beating the Yankees is desperately serious and important. But beating Boston to a pulp... it's just pure fun. Brings out the Arnold-as-Conan in you. Crush your enemies, drive them before you, hear the lamentations of their women.

You don't actually check them out, do you?

A young niece once thrust them upon me. It was a sad experience, not a humourous one.

Coke has looked okay, but he's been giving up a lot of long fly balls and long screaming fouls.  And then the 2 walks in the 9th inning, when he should be just letting the Sox hit the ball somewhere. 

It would be a crime if we did not go out and trade some prospect depth for top of the rotation pitching.

And if there's one thing everyone's been able to agree on - this team has needed a better bullpen.

Almost everyone. The bullpen looks fine to me.

Well it wasn't all that easy or pretty but it did end up being a sweep.

Sorry for underselling the Jays and Ryan Goins against the tough lefty... Everyone's true self must be at peace this evening, thanks to a comeback from an 8-1 deficit, an 11 inning one run win and a true thrashing all in one magical weekend at Fenway Park. 

I would imagine that the club will DL Sanchez and call up (probably) Randy Wolf from Buffalo for one or two starts.   Wolf had a nice outing on Thursday against Charlotte and would be right on schedule to start on Tuesday.  Wolf is not on the 40 man, so there would have to be another move. Matt Boyd is pitching into the 7th for Buffalo and has thrown a nice game. It is not beyond the realm of the possibility that he makes it to the Toronto rotation by August.

Pythagoras must be pretty close to 64-0 by now.

call up (probably) Randy Wolf

Not Copeland? Wouldn't be be eligible by virtue of the injury to Sanchez?

If Copeland's still on Sanchez's schedule, it'll be him surely. It won't be Wolf (unless he's the only guy who really works out schedule-wise). Wolf hasn't pitched all that well, actually.

The post-game show on TV said it'll be Copeland called up to start on Tuesday. He's allowed to be recalled so soon because it's for a DL replacement.

You're right, Chuck.  The club could recall Copeland to make the start(s).  That makes a lot more sense. 

"I don't know who managed this game or what he's done with John Gibbons, but I like his style."

Seconded...whoever has replaced Gibby for this BoSox series, please stay with the team for the rest of the year.

Rotoworld says Copeland will start on Tuesday.

The Jays have been on a wonderful, dreamlike roll. 11 straight wins is pretty special. Anthopoulos is looking quite brilliant for the moves he's made since last season (Martin, Donaldson, Travis, Colabello, Hendriks, to name a few). Now, if he can land a good SP and a reliever (Jeff Sullivan suggested a package deal for Cueto and Chapman), the team might end up leaving the rest of the division in the dust. On the other hand, the current roster might already be good enough, especially if Norris, Pompey, Boyd, Copeland and/or Stroman can contribute during the stretch run.

It's a good time to be a Blue Jays fan.

We were questioning the need for the 8 man pen coming into the series. but it seems the Jays knew what they were doing. Bit surprising, but the Jays staff actually threw more pitches than the Sox in each of the 3 games.

Our relievers threw 115 pitches in Gm 1, 70 Gm 2, 68 Gm 3 - 253 pitches total. All 8 relievers were used, Delabar, Loup, Cecil twice.

By virtue of today's win, the Jays now own the best run differential in MLB. Remarkable.

With Steve Tolleson not ready to come back & Kawasaki not eligible to return, I wonder if Ramon Santiago who had a nice camp might get the call for interleague play.

What a strange season it's been. On May 23, the Jays were 19-26 and sinking fast.

I'm trying not to recall that the 2013 Jays went 9-19 after their 11-game win streak.

On the other hand, it's so much fun when the Jays beat the Red Sox in Fenway. I enjoy watching that unique combination of sadness and perplexity that crosses John Farrell's face during times of trouble. (I'll say it again: Gibbons may have flaws as a manager, but he is at least twice as good as Farrell.) Looking at the AL East standings - which I have been doing rather often lately - is a very pleasant experience at present. My True Self [tm] is happy.

The pounding of the red sox is one of those rare pleasures in sport. Maybe once in a generation do you get to take a sharp beak to your mortal enemy and relentlessly bludgeon him until he cries like a baby.

Coming with the win streak, this is one series that won't be forgotten.

Farrell's career winning percentage as a manager is the same as John Gibbons (.492) and includes going 32-games over .500 in 2013.

I sure hope Gibby wins this race.

With the batters playing so well together, is it time to trade extra pieces - Buffalo AAAA players and more for pitching or assets ? Say Hague + Tolleson for Dustin Ackley and Bloomquist who would likely be the sunk cost for getting Ackley? Seattle seems to have some corner OFers playing 1B: LoMo, Trumbo, Smith could play LF or RF ?

My schadenfreude levels may stabilize sometime next week, but I’m fully enjoying their present surge while it lasts.  Sweet Caroline, indeed.  And sweet Ryan and Kevin and Josh and Russell and the hosies of course (as Tabby calls them, more or less) and Edwin and Chris -- the whole lot of them, even Gibby and all his hench-people.

Remember this weekend:  it will sustain us in times of need.

Jays have scored 23.2% more runs than the 2nd best rangers offense.

#CanadianRakin'

For those pulling their hair out at this team carrying 8 relievers, I'm trying to imagine your bald and bloodied scalps thinking about the state of the Cubs. The team that has a manager and president both viewed as amongst the best in the business are carrying 9 relievers. In case any of their 5 starters have problems going deep into outings, they have Edwin Jackson and Travis Wood as long guys... and a 3 man bench... as a National League team.

With the batters playing so well together, is it time to trade extra pieces - Buffalo AAAA players and more for pitching or assets ? Say Hague + Tolleson

The Rich family has a strong franchise in Buffalo. Gutting their team may be the ticket back to LV.

What a weekend! What a run! Don't want it to ever stop.

Tomorrow Buehrle faces Syndergaard, who had a rough start last time out. Will be interesting to see how he performs. I suspect Edwin will play first, and Navarro will give Martin a well-deserved day off. The Mets have a negative run differential but have hit left-handers better (738 OPS) than righties (.675).

"The team that has a manager and president both viewed as amongst the best in the business are carrying 9 relievers"

Are you telling me they've carried 9 in the bullpen all season? Or perhaps just as an emergency measure for today, since their starters only went 3IP, 5IP, 5IP in their most recent games, one which included a extra inning game?

No idea, actually. I was just amazed at the number when I heard it on the Sunday Night broadcast. The rest was preamble.

Ok, I suspect it's more of an emergency measure than anything else. Can't see any team go with 14 pitchers and only 11 hitters for any significant duration.

But as for your original comment about some posters' frustration with carrying a 8 man pen into Boston. That was based on the circumstances at the time, specifically
1) Starters having gone deep, leaving little work for the pen for almost a week. Well rested, perhaps even rusty pen.
2) Thursday's off day.

While it did work out that a 8 man pen proved to be actually useful for this series. I think most that didn't like the 8 man pen would've been fine with an additional reliever called up on Saturday after Hutchison could only go 2.1 IP and having to use multiple guys as a result on Friday. Again, the 8 man pen did work out, but not a strategy that some are fans of here.

Actually, in reverse order, they had received the following from their starters: 5 ip (in 10 innings), 3, 6, 4.1 (in 8), off day, 5, 8, 3.2 (Wada couldn't make it through 4 twice in a row), 6, 5 (in 8), 6 (in 8), 6.2, 5.2 (yay, Wada!), and off-day.

I mean, Wada wasn't doing him any favours, but that's not a an extreme burn-out stretch. Mind you, it looks like the transaction just happened before the game (Junior Lake down, Brian Schlitter up) so who knows if there's anything else up in the immediate future. Still, 9 is a really big number. I wonder if they had enough chairs in the bullpen.

Maybe the Mets are just getting ready for the Jays offense. If there was any time to carry extra pitchers it would be facing this offense firing on most cylinders.

So in other words, this was a fantastic weekend for you. :)

I'm shocked an article like that could make it up on a website that likely pays their authors...wow.  Why would any organization give up anything for a manager that seems likely to be fired any day now?

I have taken literally no greater pleasure as a fan since 1993 than I have while watching the Jays drag Boston around back of the woodshed for a good old-fashioned whupping of that calibre. If this turns out to be the highlight of the season, I can live with it.

My gut tells me that we're going to see some bigger highlights before the Jays are done this year, though...

IMO the 7th & 8th relievers in the pen are B Schultz & R Tepera. The other 6 are more highly regarded. Also Hendriks & Coke do not have options.
Jenkins & Copeland are righties, Rasmussen & Hynes lefties. That is my version of the Buffalo/Toronto shuttle.
On Monday Schultz threw 37 pitches in 2.2 innings. So maybe he was still available for Tuesday after Tepera, if Tepera was used.
Sunday lefty Coke threw 41 pitches and Tepera 27 pitches, both pitched 2 innings. I think Tepera is available today but not Coke.
So the pen should be big enough if the starter goes 3 innings or less, IMO. Of course you cannot plan for an extra inning game. S Copeland.

Today ran across news (team website, depth chart page) that Sanchez is now on the 15-day rehabbing a lat strain in FLA. This could be minor, or it could be one of those "six weeks later" deals, I guess...

Seems like the Fansided network sites are just run by people without a clue. Here's another one:

http://yanksgoyard.com/2015/06/12/new-york-yankees-editorial-yankees-should-trade-for-aroldis-chapman/

The author suggests the Reds would accept trading Chapman and Phillips for Esmil Rogers and Stephen Drew.

Yeah, those Fansided authors seem to be the equivalent of "Jays Talk caller gets a blog".

but you'd be shocked at how many actual boston sportswriters think they can trade for legit impact players with "prospects" like cecchini marrero bradley barnes (or in previous years guys like ranaudo webste4 delarosa workman).

Shi Davidi's very helpful injury report. Devon Travis is scheduled to get the start for the Fisher Cats today. 

and the hosies of course (as Tabby calls them, more or less)

In the light of day, I see that I was slandering poor Tabby here yesterday:  it’s Duane Ward I was thinking of who pronounces Jose as hosie.  Sorry Tabby.

Some 20-odd years ago, I enjoyed watching Cliff Floyd at Labatt Park, as a member of the visiting Harrisburg Senators. I then enjoyed watching a very impressive major league career, more of which I would have preferred in an Expos uniform (him, not me).

I did not care for him so much this past weekend in his new role. He spoke very quickly and very often, saying close to nothing. We've seen a few recent desk jockeys who have been terribly well cut out for the role (Kevin Barker, Jose Cruz Jr.). Just where the hell is Dirk Hayhurst these days? Did he burn his bridges in Toronto?

Always enjoyed Hayhurst.  Hate that he isn't involved now from what i can tell.  Another good article from him for all draftees and anyone else who comes into money when young - http://dirkhayhurst.com/2015/06/the-road-ahead/

Chuck, seeing as Hayhurst couldn't even play pro ball in Italy without burning a bridge, I'm going to guess the answer to your question is yes.

Wasn't aware of the Italy story. Sounds like he left them hanging for a better job and is lucky to not be occupying Amanda Knox's old cell.

I will say that I've read and enjoyed a couple of his books (I appreciate that he doesn't get heavy-handed espousing his religious beliefs). But he always struck me as hyper-sensitive with a bit of a persecution complex. Still, he's got more to say than the average ex-player.

Chuck, seeing as Hayhurst couldn't even play pro ball in Italy without burning a bridge, I'm going to guess the answer to your question is yes.

This post wins the internet.

Hayhurst does appear on TSN radio as their "baseball expert". For Rogers that's like burning a bridge.

Agreed CDC. His advice had some good points for anyone.