I am going to help KC by saying that they will be swept. This based on my strong record of being wrong.

It is good to hear that Lind is drawing interest. A 25 HR, 80 RBI season from him should be a big help to whomever. It is a great gamble for $7 mil. A rich team can afford the $. But maybe a Cleveland will take him and he will get them into the playoffs, which would be his first playoff experience.

I'm all for moving Lind, no defense, wonky back, and useless against lefties, but I have no idea about the return. My guess is that it'd be pretty meager. To the point where it'd make more sense to keep him? I don't know. The Jays of 2015 need to be deeper and have more position flexibility and I don't think Lind on the roster helps that much.

I'm rooting for the Giants in this one. Not just because their team is a lot of fun (Panda, Posey, Bumgarner, the awesomeness of Hunter Pence) but also because their bizarre even-numbered championship year thing really amuses me. In previous series I've often just cheered for the club with the nicer ballpark but wow, that's a real tough call between these two teams.

I think KC is gonna stick around in this series long enough to make it real interesting, but a win tonight is pretty darn crucial for that.

I'd trade Lind if there is a demand and a 1/2 decent return.  A year ago many were debating if the Jays should trade him and sign someone else, 2 years ago many felt the Jays should just plain old dump him.  DH's going into their age 31 seasons are not normally chased after so I say if someone gives a decent offer take it as odds are against getting more than 2 WAR from him (made that level twice in his career, would've been 3 times if he was healthy last year) and almost no shot at 3+ (did that once, back in 2009).

Lind and Happ would both be on my 'trade if someone gives you a 1/2 decent offer' list.  Both have value but neither is a guy who will push the Jays to the next level and might actually block someone who could help push them (Happ vs the kids, Lind vs having positional flexibility and more rest time for key players).  Both could be very useful for clubs who are set up differently but here they are more blockage than key.

I think there might be a fit between the Jays and Padres.

Alonso looks like a bust and the Padres finished last in runs scored this season. The Padres are deep in the bullpen. I would trade Lind for Quackenbush or Benoit. Quackenbush is cheap and I believe he still has 6 years of control left. Benoit is signed for 2015 with a club option in 2016 that automatically vests with 55 games finished in 2015. The dollar amount for Lind and Benoit is in the same ballpark.

Lind:
2015 - 7.5
2016 - 8 club option (0.5 m buyout)

Benoit:
2015 - 8
2016 - 8 club option (1.5 m buyout, option guaranteed with 55 games finished in 2015)

Benoit is the rare wrong side of 30 middle reliever signed to a long term contract that actually worked out. People ripped the Tigers when they gave him a 3yr/16.5 m contract but he stayed healthly and productive all 3 years. He was once again lights out for the Padres last season at age 37. I would rather take on Benoit's contract than give 4 years to Andrew Miller.

Trading Lind is a good idea, IMO. Health issues, can't hit lefties, can't play defense, and greatly reduces bench flexibility since a platoon mate is needed for him at all times. Move him for a reliever or two, and either move Bautista to 1B (he's in his mid-30's now and won't be getting better defensively in RF) or find a real first baseman who can defend and won't need a platoon mate. I sort of like the idea of going super athletic in the outfield (thanks to the Royals) and the Jays do have three CF options now (Pompey, Gose, Pillar). If you can start Pompey in CF/LF and Gose/Pillar platooning in the other spot, then defense should be a vast improvement. Hmm, would the Mariners trade Saunders for Happ or Lind? Probably not, but Saunders/Gose/Pompey right to left in the OF with Bautista at 1B has a chance to improve the defense substantially. Then DH is open for Edwin, Bautista, and Reyes depending on the match-up.

Ron, at first when i saw those names I thought that was pretty marginal return for Lind, but after looking at the stats I can see the logic, particularly with Quakenbush, but I don't see the Padres trading young, cheap talent for veterans. 

I'd want an additional asset to Benoit for Lind though; I'm not as keen to toss Lind aside as many round here are. 

The most salient point I see against Lind is the positional flexibility limitation he brings, which is more of an issue for us with our aging sluggers and platoons than many teams.  He probably has more value to a Seattle / TB / KC than he does to us. 

The trick is for AA to get 2 or 3 teams interested in Lind and then they can bid against each other (much like free agents do).  If it is just one team interested then he is screwed as that club would not want to offer any more than he is worth to the Jays, while if you have 2 or 3 teams (or more) interested then you can get what he is worth to them instead (ie: more).

I'm interested to see what type of value Lind actually has. I can't imagine it's too much given his defensive issues and the fact that he is a platoon player, but his contract is team friendly and he mashes RHP. Over the last two seasons, he is tied for 5th in all of baseball in wRC+ against RHP. There are a few teams that are going to value him. Whether they give up something useful to the Jays for him is the question. Regardless, I'm glad the team has decided (presumably) to keep DH open to rotate Edwin, Reyes, and Bautista. Keeping those guys healthy is essential for any hope at the playoffs next season. I also like the idea of occasionally having Reyes DH and putting a good defender at short in his place.

jerjapan, I'm also higher on Lind than most people on this site. I only want to see the Jays move Lind for the right offer. I think Benoit would really help the Jays bullpen and a Lind for Benoit swap would be fair for both teams.

I'm also quite happy with Lind. The limitations SK mentions, however, do lessen his value to this team more than others (especially with three veterans who could use regular turf timeouts).

It's probably reaching, but I wonder if something could be built around Lind for Brad Miller and Brandon Maurer.

For a DH rotation I wonder if something where Reyes, Bautista, Cabrera (if resigned), Encarnacion each get one day a week in DH while someone else is there 3 days.  But if so then who goes into RF/1B/SS?  At SS Goins would get 'wow' defense with noooooffense (picture Mel Lastman saying it) but once a week with the right pitcher on the mound vs the right team it would make sense (someone who gives up ground balls vs a lineup with a lot of ground ball hitters).  In the OF you could put whoever doesn't get the CF job from Gose/Pillar/Pompey into RF/LF twice a week while whenever EE is DHing you put Bautista or Cabrera at 1B.  Heck, if the guys do well enough then Reyes once a week with Bautista/Cabrera/Encarnacion twice each week apiece might work meaning that you'd get, say, Pompey in CF everyday and either Gose or Pillar in RF/LF 6 out of 7 days (if roster space allows have both and do a platoon).  That way everyone stays fresh and the outfield defense is much, much better.  The question is would the hit to offense be too great (from Lind/whoever to Gose/Pillar/Goins).  You could mix in Mayberry instead of one of the kids in the outfield too and he could shift to 1B when needed (ie: Bautista and Cabrera want to play OF for a few games straight so he goes to 1B so EE can DH).

The Gold Glove nominees were announced.  The only Blue Jay was Mark Buehrle.  Somehow Lorenzo Cain was not considered worthy. 

It would be great if they could DH each one of Bautista, Edwin, and Reyes twice a week. They'll need a really good fourth OF and good bench middle infielder to make that possible, but it's doable. When Bautista DH's, the fourth OF plays in the field and Edwin is at 1B. When Edwin DH's, Bautista is at 1B and the fourth OF is in the OF. When Reyes DH's, the back-up IF plays short, Edwin plays 1B, and Bautista is in RF. There are many combinations possible. The players may not like it, but it's a good way to minimize injury risk to players in their 30's.

Maddon done with the Rays. If I'm AA I'm at least making a call to inquire on him.

Assuming he manages the Dodgers in 2015 though.

Friedman has said that he and Mattingly are "aligned." It's not obvious to me that Maddon is LA-bound.

Maddon would be a nice get for the Jays. Adding him could have multiple benefits for the organization. Doesn't seem like the kind of move Rogers would make, though (buying out Gibbons abd spending even more on a new manager).

Maddon and Hickey!  Hold the bacon, lettuce and tomato, please!

Agreed JB21 - the Jays would be pulling an 'Ash' if they don't at least call and talk.  Back after Gaston left/was fired Davey Johnson wanted to manage here and the Jays picked the cheaper Johnson.  While Gibbons is OK I'd much rather have the guy most see as a potential HOF manager (if he lasts another decade+ with some success).  I'd be calling him and seeing what he wants and unless it is nuts ($10+ mil a year for example) I say go for it. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there would be any buyout involved for John Gibbons. Isn't his contract structured in such a way that each year is essentially a club option? If he is still the Manager on January 1st 2015, the club gets another option for 2016 and so on. If the club lets him go by December 31st 2014, the contract is at an end.

It's a golden parachute Anthopolous gave him to leave bench coach in KC. They did it to avoid Gibby having to be a "lame duck manager."

So, the Jays can fire Gibbons by January 1st but he's already guaranteed a full salary for 2015. If they don't fire him before then then 2016 becomes guaranteed as well and so on and so forth, so...Gibbons is always getting one years salary whenever he gets canned.

If you're going to make a change now would be the time to do it, cut your losses.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/option-now-guaranteed-for-jays-gibbons/

Joel Sherman has tweeted that Maddon won't be coming to Toronto. Probably the Jays' FO leaked their position to head off possible media/fan speculation that he could become the Jays' manager. The Jays have learned to get out front in these situations, using the media to let fans know indirectly that a potential upgrade won't be happening.

The Jays have learned to get out front in these situations

I think you mean: the Jays have decided to be also-rans for the foreseeable future by not even considering potential upgrades and don't care who knows it..

"It's a golden parachute Anthopolous gave him to leave bench coach in KC. " Dalimon 5 I believe he was a AA manager in San Antonio when the jays called.

The gloves have been impressive tonight on both sides. It's a lot of fun to watch.

Jamesq is correct. JG was managing AA, after bench coaching KC the year before.

I'm surprised the Jays would even leak something to deny involvement with Maddon. Did anyone actually expect that they would even consider that type of move, or that Maddon would give the Jays a 2nd thought? As long as the Jays are owned by Rogers, and especially if they are run by Paul Beeston, I don't think we will ever see a big time FA signing or manager hire again. They'll pretty much need to hire a Tim Leiweke type to be team president; someone who thinks big and knows the only way to maximize profit is winning. Unfortunately, Rogers isn't too high on Leiweke with the Raptors apparently, so they probably prefer the corporate mouth piece "yes man" over the alpha exec type.

Build the team internally. I don't care how long it takes. The Royals waited 30 years, we might have to do the same, but the only way a team in this city with this ownership structure can ever build a sustainable winning team is by doing it internally. Ownership loses interest in spending too easily to "go for broke" like 2013 again. Maybe if they build internally and start resembling a consistent and respected franchise, then the Maddon's of the world will be calling us, instead of the team faking interest on Twitter to deflect any criticism fans may have.

or that Maddon would give the Jays a 2nd thought?

Actually, I would be surprised if the Jays were genuinely interested at a decent price, and Maddon flatly refused to consider them. He knows the AL East, the Jays budget is about twice the Rays (or something like that), and they'd probably give him a lot of leeway to restructure the team in a way he wants. I'm also not saying Toronto would be his preferred destination. Early rumors have him going to the Cubs - I'm sure he'll be much more under the spotlight in Chicago than in Toronto - it's not like he's being considered for the Leafs' coaching job..

In ex-Jay news: the Royals have claimed Moises Sierra off waivers from the White Sox and DFAed Liam Hendricks to make room for him. The White Sox also assigned Michael Taylor (of the Roy Halladay trade) to AAA.

In ex-Jay news: the Royals have claimed Moises Sierra off waivers from the White Sox and DFAed Liam Hendricks to make room for him

Well, I was wrong about that trade.  I still like Hendriks and would love to see him back here. 

The gloves have been impressive tonight on both sides. It's a lot of fun to watch.

Agreed.  The Royals are a treat to watch, although I enjoyed watching Posey behind the plate, if only because he actually moves around back there. 

I just hope the Royals OF D isn't sold to us as a rationale for an outfield that features both Gose and Pompey from the start of the season, although when they are properly seasoned, I do not mind a defense-first outfield with the other bats we have.

Maddon has to be a priority for AA in my mind.  Arguably one of a handful of game-changing coaches (if you believe in the concept), he likely represents more FA value than most players.  I'd overpay to get him - he'd be our first (and only) great manager since Bobby Cox. 

he manages players with unique skill sets so well, I could see him maximizing our platoon situations and even using Lawrie in a Ben Zobrist-light role.  Although maybe if we trade for Zobrist Maddon will be more inclined to give us a look ... (I know, I'm beating a dead horse on this one, but I'd love to see that). 

Hiring someone has actually been successful somewhere else simply isn't the Blue Jay Way. They've never done it. (With the arguable exception of the emergency hire of Jim Fregosi.)

I'd argue that Gaston was a great manager as he does have twice the WS rings as Bobby Cox does.  I still have no idea why no one hired him after he was let go here in '97 as he was shown to work well with a veteran team and there were a few underachieving ones back then that could've used him.  I wouldn't be shocked if the Jays start off horribly again that AA brings him back in as he provided a big boost both times he was brought in partway through a season and next year if the Jays are sub 500 or out of it by August I could see the heat starting to get bad on AA.

It wouldn't shock me at all if Beeston, Anthopoulos and Gibbons are all gone before the end of the year.  "We've always done it that way" does get old at some point.

It wouldn't shock me at all if Beeston, Anthopoulos and Gibbons are all gone before the end of the year. "We've always done it that way" does get old at some point.

This would be just about the greatest Christmas present I could hope for, but I'd be pretty surprised if it actually did happen - this year, at least. After the Jays miss the playoffs again next year though, Rogers might have to make big changes just to keep the fan base from completely abandoning the team.

Raising ticket prices after another disappointing season (where attendance actually dropped 6% despite the team's improved performance) is going to be damaging enough already, and when they let Cabrera go without spending any significant money on an acceptable replacement, fans aren't going to be very happy.

For the record, I don't think the Jays SHOULD keep Cabrera - he's not going to be worth the money somebody gives him, but constantly trotting out the company line that the money is there while not making any improvements to the team despite being within striking distance of the playoffs for most of the season is a pretty awful PR move. It'll be just like last offseason where Anthopoulos was going to add two starters, until he didn't, and all of a sudden he liked his internal options better all along. That actually did kinda work out, and based on that I expect the same will happen this offseason.

Then again, if Gose and Pillar both exceed expectations (and/or Pompey makes the team and plays well enough) then Anthopoulos comes out looking like a genius and probably hangs onto his job a little longer. Even if the team falls flat on its face again like in 2013, Anthopoulos might still be able to scapegoat Gibbons to keep his own job.

Teams have good & bad seasons. In 2013 Boston 97 wins & Cleveland 92 wins.
If Boston has a bad 2015, the heat will be on their management because 2014 was bad too.

So I would say "do not be bad too many years in a row" if you want to keep your management job.
I think JP Richardi knew this. 87 wins in 2006, 83 in 2007 and after a horrible start to 2008 the Jays had 86 wins.

Only 75 wins in 2009, but I think something happened in 2009. I do not know what.
BUT and I am not sure:
1) JP seemed to not be allowed to do much. ie trades, acquisitions & moves for 2009.
2) Everyone, including JP knew he was out quite early that year.

AA comes in and goes with a youth movement of some kind. This should mean that he is "aiming" towards the future.
1) Heavy HS drafting which will take long to be ML ready.
2) His early trades were for young high upside players.
3) In his 1st 3 years I cannot remember him doing any "adjustment & tweaking" moves to help the team. Maybe the FF trade with Texas was a tweak. The Eveland, Merkin Valdez & the LH starter from Atlanta were moves that IMO were "hope for luck" in developing other team's talented but unproductive players. The cost of which was very cheap, but at the expense of wins.

The 2010 team had an improving Romero and very good Lind & Hill from 2009, to rely on. On paper, probably not enough. So may as well let Halladay go now for a rich package. If Halladay has a good 2010, this lame duck 2010 team may have surprised. IMO management may have been more surprised than the fans.

2013 was supposed to be our window. But the baseball gods decided against us by giving us no real breaks.
2014, I think exposed some old but crucial baseball factors. Untimely injuries & bad performances do happen. I believe that is somehow related to luck.

The Jays' problem isn't that Rogers is a corporation - they have a mandate to maximize the return to their investors and shareholders. Spending $100 million on a free agent to improve the chances of playoff baseball does not fit in with this mandate. This is doubly true given the crapshoot that post-season baseball is: a good team can get cold for the wrong three games and be out despite being the best team in the league.

But, on the other hand, not spending any money on the team causes fan interest in Blue Jays broadcasts to go down. I'm assuming that some quant somewhere at Rogers headquarters has a spreadsheet which indicates the optimal amount to spend. Spending enough to be in contention for the second wild card ought to just about do it.

Regarding Cabrera: what I think will happen is that the Jays will negotiate with him and make a reasonable offer (probably for three years). Cabrera's agent will then go out and see if anybody wants to offer more. Given the amount of money in baseball these days, someone will likely offer him a 5-year deal. Rogers will then go back to their spreadsheet and determine that Pompey in left and Gose in center will maximize shareholder returns, and Melky will go elsewhere.

While Toronto fans would be better off if the Jays were owned by a benevolent rich person - such as R. Howard Webster, who owned 45% of the team in the Jays' prime years - they're at least not being owned by a carpetbagging owner trying to game the system by collecting revenue sharing money. Or, as happens in British soccer, a financier who buys the team with borrowed money and flogs assets to pay down the resulting debt. While no one who has actually dealt with Rogers trusts them, they at least are better than Interbrew.

Finally, re Lind: I think that he wants to go elsewhere, though I could be wrong. Whether he is movable depends on whether his strength (hitting righties) offsets his weaknesses (hitting lefties, defense, back ouchies).

Sorry, bad proofreading - the first sentence in the above should read "The Jays' problem is that Rogers is a corporation..."

something happened in 2009. I do not know what

Well, they lost three starting pitchers before the season even began, and didn't do anything about it. Then a fourth suffered a season-ending injury in the first week of the season.

Being run by a corporation has no tangible benefit unless we hire a Friedman type who doesn't care about fan perception and can win on a shoe string payroll. Rogers will up payroll only when they want to, not when the team is ready for it (see 2004 and 2012). They will freeze payroll after 86 wins (2008) and during a legit playoff opportunity (2014) with not a care in the world as to what it does to the big league team. Why? Probably accounting/finance related, but either way, it doesn't help the team.

At this point, I'm fully expecting them to lean internally for any improvements, except maybe 2B/3B which they will try to acquire from outside the organization since no internal option is close. Pompey and Gose/Pillar in the OF is probably a safe bet, IMO. I think the only way Melky comes back is if he somehow accepts the QO, which he won't.

Beeston has said that he expects payroll to go up in 2014. Lets say that payroll is $140m next year. That amount of money should be enough to make the playoffs at least occasionally. If the Jays maintain a robust annual payroll, keep up the player development and install natural grass, they should be OK. Of course, the organization and team do need to be managed well to take it to the next level.

If, on the other hand, Rogers decides that the recent highs in payroll were an anomaly, and that the sea level for payroll (for example, during the next rebuilding phase) should be significantly less, this could be problematic.

Incidentally, MLBTR reports that the Jays will be making Buehrle and his $19m salary available this off-season.

Keep in mind when discussing payroll that the Canadian dollar has fallen dramatically vs the US dollar in the last year or so. It has gone from slightly above par to about 89 cents, a swing of about 15%. On a $140 million US payroll, that's about $20 million dollars. Rogers reports their financials in Canadian dollars, so that's a real cost increase on the income statement.

BTW, if you want to quantify the impact on Rogers' income statement of the Jays' payroll, the company has 515 million shares outstanding. Looking at their last income statement, I see their corp. tax rate was about 25%, so if they increase payroll by say $40 million Canadian ($35 million US), the bottom line would be hit by about $30 million, or about 6 cents per share. That's if there is no benefit seen due to increased revenues from the increased payroll. You would think/hope that there would be some revenue improvement if the increased payroll translated to more wins. The stock is trading at about 15 times earnings, so a 6 cent drop in eps would equate roughly to a 90 cent drop in share price on a $43 stock. Of course, there are many other factors that impact share price as well.

Mike, I would think it very unlikely that all three are gone by the end of the year. If you said 2015 it might be different. But to expect Rogers to suddenly clean house a month after the season ends is a long shot.

With respect to payroll, did Beeston ever talk about which currency he was making his claim in? In Canadian dollars a payroll equal to last years will be automatically higher due to the change in value of the dollar. The Jays payroll will be $15M higher in Can$ versus last year just from the exchange rate. That is why it will be hard for the Jays to increase payroll in US dollars. And that is why it is easy for Beeston to claim that payroll will be higher.

Shields/Bumgarner tonight in a pivotal Game Five. Should be interesting. Could also be the last game Shields ever pitches for KC.

I've got a weird feeling this is finally the big game he throws a gem. If this series is ever going to have a 1-0 game this would be the one.

It's going to be very difficult for KC to get much offense tonight. They're going against a terrific lefty who kills lefty hitters (career OPS .564 against), using a lineup with 4 left handed batters, all of whom have some degree of difficulty hitting lefties. Plus you've got the pitcher hitting. Even the 4 righties, Infante, Escobar, Perez and Cain are far from a Murderers Row. Plus you're playing in a good pitchers' park. Shields is going to have to be very, very good.

RIP Oscar Taveras. Only 22 years old :(

Oscar Taveras and his girlfriend were killed in a car crash in the Dominican. USA Today has the story.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2014/10/26/cardinals-outfielder-oscar-taveras-dies-in-car-accident/17977685/

Jamie Campbell says Taveras had Canadian citizenship after spending time in Montreal. Thoughts and condolences to the family and friends of Oscar Taveras and his girlfriend.

In 1947 Ewell Blackwell had a Madison Bumgarner sort of season.  22-8.  He won 16 straight complete games, including a no-hitter.  He was 6’ 6” tall, albeit a righty and not as heavy (or as strong, I’d guess) as Bumgarner;  (he also had Don Mossi ears).  But the connection for me is their arm-action.  They called Blackwell “The Whip”,  and Bumgarner’s wide-sweeping pitches remind me of that.  I hope Bumgarner last longer than Blackwell did though.  It’s been very enjoyable watching him recently.

Incidentally, is it just my ears, or do others hear the Fox announcers sometimes putting a “d” in his surname?  I swear I’ve heard “Bumgardner” more than once.

Yah, there's a lot of announcers and analysts who call him Bumgardner instead of Bumgarner. Just like there were a lot of people who called the Jays starter Roy Holliday, instead of Halladay. That used to drive Mike Wilner nuts when he'd get a caller who would call him Holliday.

BTW, Bumgarner now has the all time best career ERA in World Series history for starters who have made at least 3 starts. Some guy named Babe Ruth is 4th best on the list.

What would be the best way for Ned Yost to use his pitchers today?

I suspect that he is going to ride Guthrie until he gets in trouble.  He will probably be on a short leash, so if he's given up 2 runs and there are a couple of runners on in the fourth inning, I expect to see Danny Duffy. It's not what I would do.  Once through the order for Guthrie (until an inning is complete).  Once through the order for Duffy and maybe more if he is going well, and then turn it over to the bullpen.  Wade Davis should be good for 2 innings tonight, and Herrera and Holland at least 1 apiece. 

Yost evidently had more confidence in Vargas than in Duffy, which I admit I find baffling.

Dave Cameron's take on it. 

Short leash for both starters tonight but Guthrie looks to have righted the ship. Great D all night on both sides. And there's herrera up in the pen as I type. Great game, go royals!

Bumgarner for all time WS mvp?

What a magnificent performance by Bumgarner . . .  and by the Giants!  I'm so glad I could see it.  One of the best World Series I've witnessed.  Bumgarner's Series was one for the ages.

That was some kind of ending...would've been even crazier if they had sent Gordon there.

Bumgarner was magnificent. In the WS, he pitched 21 innings, gave up 9 hits and had an ERA of 0.43. Total of 52 2/3 IP (!!) in the postseason, and only 28 hits allowed. He pretty much single-handedly got the Giants through the post season. Sandoval had a really good WS, and was great tonight. Pence also was excellent. Huge play by Panik to turn that hit into a double play.

Great to see the Giants win for the 3rd time in 5 years after being a fan since the mid 60's with no WS championships to celebrate. This makes it 2 for the Jays and 3 for the Giants since I started watching baseball, so it's Toronto's turn next. Hope Dalton Pompey can be the home town hero as the Jays win the WS sometime soon.

Two evenly matched teams (who were not the best teams in baseball this year) played a very entertaining series.  In the end, Bumgarner was great and (unsurprisingly) Bochy did a better job of managing than Yost.  He recognized the weakness of the Royals, their difficulty with LHP, and attacked it very judiciously without any regard to convention.  Yost stuck to the convention (give the starter who is pitching decently a chance) and that turned out to be the incorrect decsion. 

Magpie was right- Bochy's club wins their third series in five years without overwhelming talent and he goes to the Hall of Fame.

And Dave Cameron's rather long but thoughtful take on the same point.