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... the pray-for-rain strategy isn't much use when your team has a retractable roof. Your pitchers are Todd Redmond and Chris Capuano.
Game Thread - 7/23 vs Los Angeles | 46 comments | Create New Account
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Chuck - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#276969) #
Your pitchers are Todd Redmond and Chris Capuano.

I think I can hear Juan Perez warming up in the bullpen already.

greenfrog - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 05:52 PM EDT (#276972) #
I've concluded that the lesson to be drawn from this season is to either (1) be frugal and brilliant (TB, Oakland, Pittsburgh), or (2) spend so much money that you can't help but contend (LAD, Detroit).

OK, so it's not exactly an airtight theory. It is good to see some low-budget teams at or near the top of the standings, though.
85bluejay - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 06:31 PM EDT (#276976) #
Thank you Tampa Bay  & maybe LA will put the final nail in & perhaps awaken this hallucinogenic FO to the fact that 2013(barring some Colorado 2007 miracle) is not happening & to start preparing for 2014 - anyways, allow me to rant on 2 things that will royally cheese me off soon.

This desperately delusional FO will sit on their hands and miss a golden opportunity to acquire future assets  - this is the time of the year when relievers are overvalued to contenders & can bring back quality assets(plus the Jays have a plethora of minor league BP prospects) - contenders will pay & the Jays should make their entire BP available - I'm not saying the Jays will be able to do a Uehara for Davis steal but how about Cecil for a redundant Kolten Wong / Janssen & Delabar for Castellanos plus/ Texas Rangers have a rich system etc .- Given the unreliability in performance of relievers season to season, I think it's nuts to sit on  BP talent having a good year.If all the Jays move is Darren Oliver, I'll be pissed. As an aside, I don't think there is an untouchable on the active roster - I wonder if Pittsburgh would be interested in Jose Bautista?

Come September, with the Jays safely ensconced in the basement and looking primed for a top ten pick - which would mean 2 picks in the top 11 & an opportunity to add some high quality talent to the farm (I know, they could draft a Deck McGuire type again) - the Jays will go on a completely meaningless winning streak  &  having sucked for the year, squander the one reward for sucking, just so the team, its FO & enablers can say, "see, this is the real Jays team, if only we didn't have a bad start - just wait 'till next year"  End of rant, thank you.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 06:52 PM EDT (#276977) #
I don't think relievers have a lot of trade value, especially now that comp picks are gone for mid-season trades. I certainly don't see St. Louis or Detroit as organizations likely to get fleeced.

I actually think this is a dangerous time for the Jays, the risk being that the Jays make a desperation move and end up getting fleeced themselves.
Magpie - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 07:10 PM EDT (#276978) #
If all the Jays move is Darren Oliver, I'll be pissed.

I'd certainly be willing to do your other hypotheticals as well, but I can't necessarily be angry if they don't happen. The other team has to play along. The Jays will able to flip relief pitchers for Rasmus because the Cardinals were happy to get rid of Rasmus.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 07:56 PM EDT (#276979) #
The Cards are certainly happy they traded Rasmus for a solid mid-rotation starter and two relievers, helping them win a WS (and subsequently gain draft picks for the relievers, which is no longer possible under the new CBA). The Cards' front office knows what it's doing.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 08:02 PM EDT (#276982) #
* draft picks for Dotel and Jackson, I believe. Rzep of course wasn't a free agent at that point.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 08:23 PM EDT (#276983) #
Does anyone else find it odd that Gibbons would tell a television audience during the third inning what his team's game plan against Capuano is (look a changeup in key counts and try to make him elevate it)? I guess it's not exactly a state secret, but it still seems a bit casual to me.
Dave Till - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 08:56 PM EDT (#276984) #
Some random thoughts:
  • Hands up, those of you who predicted that Brett Cecil would be in the all-star game this year. Baseball is unpredictable.
  • I don't see why the Jays are experimenting with Lawrie at second. He's a great defensive third baseman. Maybe Izturis prefers to play third when he's in the lineup, and because he's actually hitting and stuff, what he wants gets priority.
  • I think The Tao Of Stieb called Lawrie's situation perfectly: he's trying to attack the game of baseball, and it can't be played that way. Lawrie in a batter's box reminds me of the description of Billy Beane there - it was a cage that crushed his spirit. I wonder whether Lawrie would have been better off playing football - I can see him drinking five cans of Red Bull and then going out and crushing a defensive safety.
  • I think I have finally figured out Adam Lind. I knew that he was going to struggle the minute I heard that he had to miss a game with back problems. He's the hitting equivalent of Steve Karsay, for those who remember him: he's good when he's healthy, but not often healthy. Lind hit like gangbusters in the spring because, for once, all of his parts were working.
  • I find it hard to blame AA for this season, despite it all. When (a) you trade for three starting pitchers, and (b) your team's glaring weakness is starting pitching, there's not much else you can do, other than maybe trade for six starting pitchers.
  • The way things are going, Josh Johnson might wind up with the Jays in 2014 after all - as a non-roster invitee.

Chuck - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#276985) #

Pat: Carlos Marmol has had some big strikeout seasons.
Buck: Yep. His high was 65 in 74 innings in 2009.

Buck read the walks column, not the strikeout column. No crime in making a mistake, but you'd think the unimpressiveness of 65 would have raised a red flag.

Marmol's career high is 138, a 16.0 K/9 rate.

 

Chuck - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 09:17 PM EDT (#276986) #
If Ethier is a CF, I'm a Rockette.
JB21 - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 09:20 PM EDT (#276987) #
Pat, not to be out done, said that the AL East O's acquired a player to possibly block the NL Central Pirates from getting him. You read that correctly.
Thomas - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 09:49 PM EDT (#276988) #
I don't think relievers have a lot of trade value,

Nick Delmonico strikes me as a pretty good return for two and a half months of Francisco Rodriguez.

scottt - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 10:05 PM EDT (#276989) #
Oliver for a prospect in A ball might not be a big priority.
Mike Forbes - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 10:12 PM EDT (#276990) #
This is so sad it's hilarious.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 10:12 PM EDT (#276991) #
Thomas, that's interesting - I was thinking that that trade was an illustration of my point.
Chuck - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 10:25 PM EDT (#276992) #
Stop saying scoreless WRT Perez.
Chuck - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 10:28 PM EDT (#276993) #
Stop saying "start of his career" WRT Perez.
ISLAND BOY - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 10:57 PM EDT (#276994) #
I'm from PEI and Matt Stairs was here over the weekend playing with Fredricton in the Maritime baseball league. He has moved his family to Fredricton and his 3 daughters will attend the same high school as he did. He still comes to the ball park two hours early and is batting .444. I mention him because he was always one of my favorite players when he played for the Jays. I find this years team, with the exception being Jose Reyes, to be totally unlikable. I don't know if it is the losing when so much was expected of them , but despite being a loyal Jays fan since their inception, I've just lost all interest in them. In fact,I'm finding them darn near unwatchable unless one is masochistic !
King Ryan - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 11:02 PM EDT (#276995) #
"I think I have finally figured out Adam Lind. I knew that he was going to struggle the minute I heard that he had to miss a game with back problems. He's the hitting equivalent of Steve Karsay, for those who remember him: he's good when he's healthy, but not often healthy. Lind hit like gangbusters in the spring because, for once, all of his parts were working."

I think Lind is exceptionally easy to understand. First off, he should never play against a lefty. Second, because of his back issues, he should be given regular time off. Play him four times a week, and never against a lefty, and you can get great results.

Of course, then you read too much into those great results and decide that he needs to bat cleanup every day and here we are.

I did not watch the game tonight. I don't know if I'll watch another one this season. I can't take this anymore.
ComebyDeanChance - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 11:08 PM EDT (#276996) #
I guess one benefit of the 8 man bullpen, was that guys like Cecil aren't brought in to pitch every night by "Gibby", whether they're behind or ahead by several runs. I suspect that with the 7 man pen and a crummy rotation, we'll be hearing a lot less about "Gibby's" wonderful bullpen management, as we see the same relievers struggle nightly. I'll be interested in seeing the stats for the 7 man pen vs the 8 man pen. And we lost Wagner, who actually has value, for Melky Cabrera, who doesn't.

The last time I saw a team play this badly was the last time "Gibby" was fired.
Magpie - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 11:19 PM EDT (#276997) #
The last time I saw a team play this badly was the last time "Gibby" was fired.

Hey, they're on pace to go 74-88. Which is better than last year. Baby steps.
Mylegacy - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 11:21 PM EDT (#276998) #
Who'd a thunk it... Morrow, Johnson and Dickey - and - maybe - not a keeper among them...yikes. A bullpen that is - without question - well and truly gassed. A catcher - who - well - can't actually catch. A great 3rd baseman (who can't hit) playing 2nd (where he still can't hit). Bautista and EE - stoic to the bitter end. Reyes and Cabrera - hope for 2014 - I think so. Rasmus - slowly becoming the beast I know he'll become.

So what do we do - We trade for a 3rd baseman at the deadline (or yesterday preferably). We give Johnson, Behrele, Dickey, Morrow (in particular) a winter with the weighted ball. We "offer" Johnson - and pray the weighted ball did him some good - IF we're really lucky some other team signs him and we get a Supplemental 1st for him (if not we've got him for 1 year at about twice to three times what's he's worth) - either way I can live with it. We hope/pray that at least five of: Johnson, Dickey, Beherle, Morrow, Romero, Hutchison, Drabek, Stroman and Nolan can somehow make up a 2014 rotation.

And till then - we have an occasional wee dram of highland elixir. Given even a little bit of health luck - surely we're due... I'm still pretty high on 2014. At least I think it's 2014 I'm high on...

China fan - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 11:26 PM EDT (#276999) #
"....I think I have finally figured out Adam Lind. I knew that he was going to struggle the minute I heard that he had to miss a game with back problems...."

But this is a misrepresentation of Lind's season. After his injury, he had a brief slump of six mediocre games. And then he resumed his excellent hitting. He has posted an OPS of .825 in the nine games since that brief slump (not counting tonight). Nothing wrong with that performance, even if it's not quite as stellar as the earlier part of his season. The back problems might have bothered him for a few games, but he's certainly not been "struggling" (with the exception of that six-game slump).
King Ryan - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 11:29 PM EDT (#277000) #
The one good thing I can say is that it is good to see Magpie and Chuck and and all you other guys whom I remember from when I was a regular here in 2003/2004. This season is making me remember 2004 with fondness.

I hope you are well.
Magpie - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 11:33 PM EDT (#277001) #
This season is making me remember 2004 with fondness.

Like war veterans, reminiscing about how they got their scars.
Thomas - Tuesday, July 23 2013 @ 11:39 PM EDT (#277002) #
Thomas, that's interesting - I was thinking that that trade was an illustration of my point.

If the Jays could get a prospect equal to Delmonico for what's left of Darren Oliver, I'd take that without hesitation (not that I think that's necessarily possible). Delmonico has questions defensively, but he's a potential power bat, particularly if he can stick at 3B. He was rated this offseason as Baltimore's 4th best prospect by Baseball America. To me, that's quite good value for two and a half months of a reliever.

I know the calculation may be different if the Jays were considering dealing Delabar or Cecil or Loup with their several years of team control. I also understand that the Jays probably aren't interested in an A-ball 3B who is 2 years away from the majors, at least, if he makes it. However, I'd rather gather assets for Oliver and possibly Janssen and Juan Perez and sort the rest out later.

King Ryan - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 12:06 AM EDT (#277003) #
"Like war veterans, reminiscing about how they got their scars."

:-)

This one here is from Kerry Ligtenberg, this one is Terry Adams.
King Ryan - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 12:09 AM EDT (#277004) #
I am kind of surprised Oliver is still here. He basically came out of retirement to join this club; I expect him to head back to Florida soon. I wish I could join him.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 12:17 AM EDT (#277005) #
I think Delmonico was a fair return for K-Rod. It's a decent upside play for Milwaukee. I just don't think as a return he constitutes "a lot," given Delmonico's distance from the majors, his defensive shortcomings, and (to some extent) his contact issues. Some Baltimore fans seem to wish they'd landed a better player than K-Rod (a not unreasonable point of view), but very few seem to feel that Delmonico is a significant loss. As for his prospect ranking, Baltimore's system seems to drop off quite a bit after Bundy and Gausman, although Schoop seems to be an OK prospect. Ranking #4 in the O's system isn't the same as ranking #4 in some other systems.

There is always the possibility of a Chris Davis-type bonanza, but typically bullpen arms (non-closers especially) don't bring back a whole lot, at least on their own. Also, my hypothesis is that teams are now valuing relievers somewhat more sensibly, perhaps as a result of sabermetrics and seeing teams perenially assemble bullpens on the cheap out of fungible parts. And now there's the CBA issue as well (no draft compensation for mid-season trades, and no more Type B picks). Contending teams still covet useful relievers, but they generally aren't going to pay a ton for them.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 01:46 AM EDT (#277007) #
I think an an Oliver deal would net something akin to what the White Sox got for Matt Thornton. Best comp for Brandon Jacobs would be Mike Crouse.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 02:17 AM EDT (#277008) #
A.A. has spoken, which is sure to disappoint many people. "We are not going to do much ...", is sure to turn people away. I can understand asking for more than a rental. I would want an MLB player or an MLB-ready and a quality prospect coming back for most deals.

There is quality going forth:
1B: Edwin Encarnacion is a good enough 1st Baseman to play there. If he's D.H. going forward (bad move), the Team will need someone better than Adam Lind (traded or not brought back).
2B: Brett Lawrie should be very good here because you need to give Reyes the best support you can. If Lawrie's 3B, then you need a quality 2B that's much better than Izturis, DeRosa or Bonifacio.
SS: Jose Reyes, thank God, will be here a long time, he needs the best support you can give.
3B: If you can talk Jose Bautista into become the regular 3B, that's good. If not, you need a quality 3rd Baseman.
C: I'm willing to go with Josh Thole as #1 Catcher, if a quality Backup Catcher is acquired.
RF: Unless you need to trade him, Jose Bautista plays here.
CF: I'm willing to have Kevin Pillar here, so Colby Rasmus could be traded if necessary, otherwise keep Colby.
LF: If you can get a quality OF, I'll take Melky Cabrera as 4th OF, otherwise he stays. Mainly because he can't be traded.
Bench: I keep Macier Izturis because he's finally figured out how to play turf.

No hitters other than Encarnacion, Lawrie, Reyes, Bautista, Cabrera, Thole and Izturis stay. Lind, Arencibia, Bonifacio, DeRosa, Rasmus and Davis can be traded for whatever is needed.

Starters: R.A. Dickey should be kept. Josh Johnson has no trade value so he might stay (if he improves - good). If someone wants Mark Buehrle, Esmil Rogers, Brandon Morrow and Rickey Romero then I trade them. As for the rest Happ, Drabek, Hutchison and others, who knows their value.

No one on this Team/ D.L. Included would be a #1 Starter, or a #2 Starter, or a #3 Starter on the Dodgers, the Nationals, Giants and others. Until A.A. solves this problem, this Team will always be last.

Relievers: I would keep Sergio Santos ( little trade value), Steve Delabar (never get enough back), Dustin NcGowan and Aaron Loup. The rest can be traded for whatever comes back.
Oceanbound - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 05:39 AM EDT (#277009) #
Has there ever been a team that had 11 game winning and losing streaks in the same season?
scottt - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 07:30 AM EDT (#277010) #
Oliver didn't  exactly look like someone who belongs on a playoff team either.
Thomas - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 07:32 AM EDT (#277011) #
Greenfrog, those are all fair points and I don't really disagree with any of them. Delmonico isn't a perfect prospect and, although ranked #4 in Baltimore's system, I note that this is precisely where it falls off a lot. He's not a Top 100 prospect nor is he just outside the Top 100 list, I believe.

That being said, he does have clear upside and I guess that's what struck me and why I characterized it as a "fairly good return." I don't disagree that maybe teams are valuing relievers more sensibly these days as a result of all the reasons you listed, but it's in light of all those factors that Milwaukee still got a "B-" prospect for two months of a reliever which made me think it was a pretty good return, particularly when it seemed almost certain K-Rod would not be back next year.
John Northey - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 09:02 AM EDT (#277014) #
Milwaukee in 1987 came to mind for streaks...
  • Started 13-0 and everyone thought 'wow'.
  • Then from May 3rd to May 19th they lost every game, a 12 game losing streak.
  • By June 4th they also had a 6 game losing streak followed immediately by a 6 game winning streak.
All this from a team that had two future HOF'ers in their prime (Yount & Molitor).  In the end that team was 91-71 in 3rd place 7 back of the Tigers in the year of the great collapse by the Jays.
mathesond - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 09:11 AM EDT (#277016) #
"Like war veterans, reminiscing about how they got their scars."

:-)

This one here is from Kerry Ligtenberg, this one is Terry Adams.


Batting cleanup, Dave Berg
92-93 - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 09:51 AM EDT (#277017) #
"If the Jays could get a prospect equal to Delmonico for what's left of Darren Oliver, I'd take that without hesitation"

The worst part of last night's loss was knowing there's likely scouts in the park watching guys like Oliver, who shredded his trade value. At this point it makes sense to take back whatever you can get for Oliver and free that spot up to see what you have in some arms for the future.
Magpie - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 10:00 AM EDT (#277018) #
If the Jays could get a prospect equal to Delmonico for what's left of Darren Oliver

Pretty sure K-Rod had considerably more trade value than Oliver. Even before last night. So you shouldn't be thinking of getting something equivalent to Delmonico, but something considerably less promising. Of course, at this point you'll take whatever you can get. The team is going nowhere, and the end of Oliver's career is roughly two months away.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 10:03 AM EDT (#277019) #
I was at the game last night, and came out of it with optimism.

On the steps outside the RC before the game, our very small pena was discussing players who might be traded.  Darren Oliver's name came up..."the Red Sox and Rays could use a left-handed reliever".  I came back "they're smart enough to realize that he can't get out lefties".  Right that time.  2nd inning, I said, "I think the Jays can win this one in a blowout".  My friend says "yes they can score, but how are they going to prevent the other team from scoring?".  8-3 in the sixth, "Maybe a blowout", I say.  My friend "too early".  I concede his point, and later Darren Oliver comes on to prove us both right.

My random observations, some hopefully salient and some definitely silly:

  • Brett Lawrie is central to this club's future and Darren Oliver is not.  Lawrie looked much, much better at the plate last night.  He wasn't as nervous, and looked under much better control.  I consider that to be a very good sign and much more important than the result of last night's game.
  • Mark DeRosa can no longer play third base
  • Adam Lind's striding-to-the-plate music is tolerable the first time, but becomes progressively more irritating as the game goes on.  He has to be limited to 3 plate appearances per game, if for no other reason.
  • The bullpen is not in sync, and it is not because of a shortage of players.  They need a long man.  Perez is capable of filling the role.  He didn't pitch in a natural long man situation on Monday night because he had pitched the day before, with the result that Gibbons had gone through his high leverage guys in a blowout loss.  Ahead 8-3 last night, it would have been natural to bring in Perez to see if you can spare the high leverage guys.  Gibbons didn't - Cecil didn't have his control, McGowan was hit pretty hard and Oliver was hit even harder.  
  • The club played with intensity the whole game; it was not a hard game to watch unless the result of the game was the key point.  

I still like the core of this club- Rasmus (I had no idea that he would be a core player at the outset of the season but he is), Encarnacion, Bautista, Lawrie and Reyes. I'd be looking for a defensive specialist to play shortstop with the intention of moving Reyes to second in the off-season.  I'd also be looking for a first baseman who can play the position.  I actually think the club's pitching will be fine if you put a good defence behind them. Strangely, Josh Johnson's poor season may result in him being back in 2014, with the club putting in a qualifying offer.


Mike Green - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 10:08 AM EDT (#277020) #
One more thing.  When Kemp returns, the Dodgers will have a fearsome offence.  Adrian Gonzalez is back.  Hanley Ramirez is back.  Yasiel Puig is not chopped liver.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if that club ends up with rings when 2013 is done, by bashing opponents into submission and throwing Clayton Kershaw out there enough...
92-93 - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 10:18 AM EDT (#277021) #
I was sitting right next to 3B, and blaming DeRosa for those plays is pretty harsh. The play where he barehanded it and the throw was just late was mighty fine.

I've been saying all season that the problem with the bullpen construction is not having a true long man.
92-93 - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 10:19 AM EDT (#277022) #
Puig's casual throw to prevent the runners from tagging in the 9th was worth the price of admission alone.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 10:23 AM EDT (#277023) #
Not the barehanded one.  Lawrie would have gotten in faster, but still probably would not have been able to throw out Puig.  There were a couple of plays earlier where DeRosa showed the range of a well-anchored statue, attempting to move to his left but not really succeeding.   

This does not matter though.  Like Oliver, Mark DeRosa is pretty clearly not important for where this club wants to be in 2014.  The best he can do is set a good example.  Hopefully, the manager puts him in a role where he can easily do that (platoon DH with Lind, and late inning defensive substitute in an emergency). 
Gerry - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 10:31 AM EDT (#277024) #
  • Adam Lind's striding-to-the-plate music is tolerable the first time, but becomes progressively more irritating as the game goes on.  He has to be limited to 3 plate appearances per game, if for no other reason.

    Great suggestion for a new rule Mike, I like it.

  • Mike Green - Wednesday, July 24 2013 @ 11:53 AM EDT (#277028) #
    Here's a cool baseball and music story about Yo La Tengo. 
    Game Thread - 7/23 vs Los Angeles | 46 comments | Create New Account
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