Batter's Box Interactive Magazine - A Night to Forget for Norris

Tonight was a night to forget for the pitchers giving up a combined 25 runs over 4 games. Daniel Norris had another terrible outing for Lansing, raising his ERA into the double digits.

Norffolk 8 - Buffalo 4

Tonight the Bisons were up against former Atlanta Brave Jair Jurrjens, who now is trying to make it back to the big leagues with Baltimore. Jim Negrych had another great night, with his 12th double of the season, to go along with 2 walks. Ryan Langerhans hit his 7th home run of the season later off of Norfolk reliever Jairo Asencio.

Claudio Vargas was not impressive tonight giving up 5 earned runs over 6 innings. He gave up two home runs tonight off the bats of Danny Valencia and Jason Pridie. Claudio was followed by Bobby Korecky, Chad Beck, and Alex Hinshaw. Chad Beck did not fair well in his AAA debut this year, giving up 2 hits, and 2 walks over an 1 1/3 innings.

New Britian 5 - New Hampshire 4

Marcus Walden started tonight for the Fisher-Cats, he wasn't at his best tonight giving up 4 earned runs over 4 2/3 innings pitched. He was relieved by Austin Bibens-Dirkx who appears to be a reliever now with the arrival of Sean Nolin and Chad Jenkins to NH as starters. Austin and Joel Carreno both pitched well combining for 4 2/3 innings pitched giving up 4 hits while striking out 6.

Kevin Pillar continued to hit well in the lead-off spot, with 2 hits, raising his average to 331. John Tolisano, and Jack Murphy each had two hits including a double.

Dunedin 4 - Bradenton 9

Scott Copeland was on the mound tonight for Dunedin, and gave up 5 runs over 7 innings pitched. He was relieved by Tony Davis who had a rough outing giving up 4 runs over 1/3 of an inning pitched.

The Dunedin offense tonight was powered by homeruns from Andy Burns and Marcus Knecht. Andy Burns continued to impress, with a walk, home run and a stolen base.

Lansing 4 - Dayton 11

Daniel Norris had another start to forget, which included him giving up 6 earned runs over 1.1 innings pitched. He was followed by several poor performances from Lugnut pitchers, that included recently promoted Justin Jackson giving up 1 earned run, walking 3 over his 1 inning outing.

The bats tonight were unabled to get anything going vs Dayton's starter and Reds first round pick from 2011 Robert Stephenson. Stephenson went 6 innings giving up 3 hits and striking out 9 Lugnuts. After the starter's exit the Lugnuts were able to get 4 runs off Dayton's relievers. This included Missisauga's own Dalton Pompey who had a double, and a triple. Right Fielder Carlos Ramirez had a 2 run bomb, but this wasn't enough to help the Lugnuts come back from their early hole.

Three Stars
3-Ryan Langerhans
2-Jim Negrych
1-Andy Burns

Posted by tercet on Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 09:59 PM EDT.

A Night to Forget for Norris | 20 comments | Create New Account

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

Gerry - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 10:50 PM EDT (#271795) #

Copeland was a little unlucky for Dunedin. Of the 7 hits he gave up, two were seeing-eye, one was an infield hit, one was a bunt single, one was a ground ball through the hole between short and third, one was a broken bat flare over third and one was a good long double.

Knecht's home run was a monster shot, over the wall, over the big tree behind the wall, the outfielder never moved.

Gerry - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 10:56 PM EDT (#271798) #

I mentioned yesterday that AJ Jimenez had left the game after one inning. Jimenez tried to throw out a runner stealing and he felt "something funny" in his elbow. He was removed as a precaution.

He threw today and his arm felt fine but he was kept out of the lineup again today as a precaution. It was likely scar tissue breaking.

Gerry - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 11:10 PM EDT (#271801) #

Today was the last day of my Florida trip. I went to the Yankee minor league complex for two games today. In one game Ivan Nova was the starting pitcher and Curtis Granderson was the left fielder. The Jays started Todd Redmond who will be headed to Buffalo soon, maybe to take Edgar Gonzalez' spot.

Jason DeJong started and looked good. Mitch Nay had a big double off Nova, over the centre fielders head. In the other game Franklin Barreto tripled off the centre field wall.

I will write up my impressions and have them here next week.

tercet - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 11:13 PM EDT (#271803) #

Will Daniel Norris stick with Lansing?

Having an era over 10 has to be pretty demoralizing, shouldn't they send him back to Ext Spring Training to work on the basics?

tercet - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 11:15 PM EDT (#271804) #

Nice to hear some good news about Dejong and Nay, as their are unknowns to most Jays fans due to lack of milb stats on them.

Ron - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 11:20 PM EDT (#271805) #

I'm interested to hear why Kevin Ahrens didn't develop. Coming out of High School, people were comparing him to Chipper Jones.

TamRa - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 11:46 PM EDT (#271807) #

Did you learn anything about Smoral while you were in FA? I, for one, am ready to see him or DeJong (or any of a half dozen others) take over for Norris who really seems to be on his heels. Heck, there are quite a few I'd rather see as Alonzo Gonzalez too.

Gerry - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 12:10 AM EDT (#271809) #

Smoral has blisters and isn't pitching right now. DeJong and the other young guys will head to Bluefield, the Jays don't see a need to rush them.

Norris had a bad night tonight but you don't make a decision based on one night, he has shown flashes of ability over his last few starts. He might get sent down in June but I think he will make his next 5 starts in Lansing.

Gerry - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 12:12 AM EDT (#271810) #

I meant to say Chase DeJong above.

TamRa - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 02:57 AM EDT (#271812) #

Norris had a bad night tonight but you don't make a decision based on one night, he has shown flashes of ability over his last few starts. He might get sent down in June but I think he will make his next 5 starts in Lansing.

Well, it's certainly not just tonight that influanced my comment. "Flashes of" have been to few and far between, IMO. I suppose that if the value of the game-action experience outweighs the potential damage to his psyche, then fine. But he's clearly not ready for this level.

Lugnut Fan - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 07:24 AM EDT (#271815) #

Like Gerry said, Norris may get sent to Vancouver once short season starts, but I don't see it happening before then.

The thing they are working on with Norris is fastball command. He's pretty much workign exclusively on fastball command specifically low and away. In last start in Lansing he hit 95 on the black. If he is able to do that consistently, he is going to be fine.

I think Jays fans have been spoiled by the performances of Sanchez, Osuna and when they were with the system, Syndergaard and Nicolino. Norris is six weeks into his first full season. It isn't uncommon for kids his age to struggle and then all of a sudden have something click and they start to dominate. You have to be patient.

MatO - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 09:26 AM EDT (#271822) #

I'm interested to hear why Kevin Ahrens didn't develop.

There's no magic reason. Most guys don't develop into major league players and that includes first rounders. Almost nobody develops into a Chipper Jones.

Gerry - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 09:35 AM EDT (#271824) #

The Jays have now confirmed to Shi Davidi that Osuna has a sore elbow and will be shut down for a month.

Unfortunately sore elbows often lead to TJ surgery at some point. Drew Hutchison was in the wait and see category this time last year.

Ryan Day - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 11:36 AM EDT (#271832) #

I suppose you never want to leap into surgery, but you also wonder if it wouldn't be better for Osuna to get it over with now. He's young, and TJ surgery has a high success rate - write off this season, try to get him able to play some of next year.

rtcaino - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 11:57 PM EDT (#271885) #

Syndergaard with a mighty fine outing tonight. And The Jays are playing .361 ball.

I am tying to not be negative, but that one doesn't sit well.

Jake W - Friday, May 10 2013 @ 08:28 AM EDT (#271897) #

After the Osuna news I wonder when I should start worrying over images like these:

http://mwltraveler.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/aaron-sanchez-pitching.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NXmXc4bGEss/T8RceaDILDI/AAAAAAAACno/SXRxKVrNoyw/s1600/M.Smoral+1.jpg

http://jaysprospects.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Robert-Osuna-The-Province.jpg

http://www.bluejayhunter.com/2012/06/drabek-hutchison-doomed-by-inverted-w.html

hypobole - Friday, May 10 2013 @ 09:59 AM EDT (#271904) #

Jake, I was just thinking about this myself. The last article references the SI story detailing the biomechanical study finding arm lag (late cock phase) as the biggest cause of elbow problems.

I discussed this with Marc Hulet a while back and his response was that people in the industry have mixed opinions about the study. This was prior to both Drabek's and Hutch's injuries. The article actually foreshadowed Drabek's injury, naming him as one of 3 young MLB pitchers at high risk.

A FG article this offseason foretold Osuna's injury pointing out his high elbows. However and this is just a guess, the inverted W is a symptom rather than a cause. If the pitcher can get out of the inverted W by the time he actually plants his foot, and have the ball cocked and ready for delivery, he has decreased his chances of elbow strain.

In the pictures above, neither Smoral or Sanchez have their lead foot planted yet. Smorals foot is close, but he seems to have the ball pretty close to cocked as well. Maybe someone with more knowledge of pitching mechanics can make a more definitive statement.

Going back to my exchange with Marc, it seems the Jays may not be overly concerned with arm lag since I'm guessing Marc's primary contacts are with the Jays. The SI article did say one MLB team won't acquire any pitcher with arm lag. Maybe the Jays will eventually come around on this as well.

Jake W - Friday, May 10 2013 @ 09:01 PM EDT (#271959) #

Hi Hypobole.

Let's push this further,

Josh Johnson:
http://www.heinespitchingschool.com/blog/assets/0_0_0_0_176_106_csupload_49192105_large.jpg?u=634823663538763762

Brandon Morrow:
http://www.houseofthebluebird.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/brandon-morrow.jpg?w=300

Dustin McGowan:
http://blog.stats.com/mcgowan.jpg

I guess something to be concerned about is that if the Jays are thinking of having some combination of Johnson (resigned), Morrow, Hutchison, Drabek, Sanchez, Smoral, and Osuna as the foundations of a staff in a couple of years then there is certainly a good deal of risk that a several of them will be injured simultaneously. This is if you believe the theory of the inverted W... see Joel Hanrahan news today of surgery and photos of his deliver. This would require significant depth in pitching (without Inverted W issues) in order to hedge the injury risk. The Jays do not seem to have managed this well the last year or so. Note that last time the Jays rotation crumbled there was Burnett, Marcum, and McGowan as Inverted W guys.

Just saying'.

hypobole - Friday, May 10 2013 @ 10:28 PM EDT (#271964) #

Jake

Again, it's not the arm position itself, it's arm position at foot strike. Here is an experts quote, along with the link:

"The problem with the Inverted W is that it can (and I mean can and not always does) create a timing problem (aka rushing) and cause the arm to be late."

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/PitchingMechanics101/Analyses/StephenStrasburg.html

Jake W - Saturday, May 11 2013 @ 03:00 AM EDT (#271969) #

Yes, but the stress level on the arm is probably continuous relative to the foot strike so if you get the arm into the L or W position before the foot strike, the less time between foot strike and the inverted arm position, the faster the pitcher has to rotate the pitching arm which creates the stress. Also, I wonder if it is ever non-damaging to get the elbow above the shoulder during the delivery; it seems a very unnatural process.

The economics of the issue is that the more of the pitchers you have getting into such positions during the delivery, the higher the likelihood of DL visits. I wonder whether this plays into the decisions on depth and quality or whether the Jays feel that this type of pitching mechanics is not a significant factor into injuries and thus are okay with the lot of their top pitching prospects having this feature in their deliveries.

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