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Someday I'll fly, someday I'll soar, someday I'll be so damn much more.

Matt Moore (5-0, 1.95) is on the mound for Tampa Bay. Lefty Ricky Romero (0-1, 6.75) hopes to come up bigger than his last start for the Blue Jays at 7:10 p.m. Eastern.

Tonight's @BlueJays lineup: Lawrie-3B Cabrera-DH Bautista-RF Encarnacion-1B Arencibia-C Davis-LF DeRosa-2B Izturis-SS Bonifacio-CF
Game Thread — 5/8 @ Tampa Bay | 74 comments | Create New Account
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Mike Green - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#271760) #
Edgar Gonzalez recalled from Buffalo with Happ on DL.  Carreno would have been a better choice.
John Northey - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#271761) #
Edgar Gonzalez: So far has a poor ERA (5.49) but good in the other stats 0.9 HR/9, 0.9 BB/9 (very nice), 6.9 K/9.  He reached the majors at the age of 20 (!) but never really stuck.  3 1/3 IP for the Jays so far, 2 runs, 3 walks, 2 K's.
Joel Carreno: Have a great year in AA with a 0.59 ERA over 15 1/3 IP, 4 H 4 R 1 ER 0 HR 2 BB 26 SO.  In two of his last 3 games he went 2 IP so the Jays might be stretching him out a bit now.  His last 5 games over 7 IP he has allowed 0 hits 0 walks and 11 SO over 21 batters.  Sweet.

Carreno looks really good right now.  But if all the Jays want is a guy to do 3-4 innings in a blowout then Gonzalez (or Bush or Ortiz) makes more sense I think.  For a guy who you want in tight games then I'd go with Carreno.  Basically if a guy gets hurt in the pen call up Carreno.  If the pen is tired though you don't want a guy who has yet to go 2 1/3+ IP this season.
hypobole - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 04:14 PM EDT (#271762) #
Agree on Carreno, except
1) the Jays need a long man. Gonzalez is a starter who last went 5 days ago. Carreno has only been pitching 2 innings maximum.

2) Gonzalez will pass through waivers when no longer required. I doubt Carreno will once he comes up. Unless he's battered, he'll have to stay up.
Mike Green - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#271763) #
I think that they need a pitcher who can quite possibly give them 2 very good innings twice a week more than they need a pitcher who will likely give them 3 very bad innings and be gone until the next one is called up.  Haven't we seen enough of this?

If you must, stretch out Lincoln and use Carreno to fill Lincoln's spot.  At least Lincoln seems to be a decent pitcher.

On a more positive note, I had forgotten how far out of the 1989 Jays fell.  They were 6 games out in mid-May when Jimy Williams was fired, but things got both better and worse for quite a while.  They won more games than they lost, but were 38-45 and 10 games out in 6th place on July 5.  Notwithstanding the injuries in the rotation, I think that this club can be in a better position than that by early July. 

ComebyDeanChance - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 06:12 PM EDT (#271765) #
Rasmus benched for the hot bat of Bonifacio, the night after his 2-run homerun as Gibby does his rote platooning that the fantasy players can sing along with at home.
ComebyDeanChance - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 06:16 PM EDT (#271766) #
2) Gonzalez will pass through waivers when no longer required. I doubt Carreno will once he comes up. Unless he's battered, he'll have to stay up.

Sounds sensible. Even if he's battered he may be claimed, for exactly the reason some want him up.
Four Seamer - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#271767) #

A more horrific defensive lineup would be hard to imagine.  Let's hope Ricky manages some combination of 27 strikeouts and groundballs to Lawrie.  Anything else will be tempting fate.

eudaimon - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#271768) #
Yup, and after the early exit last night by Happ it's good to have someone who can eat some innings just in case.
Mike Forbes - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#271769) #
This is a sure loss game. I'll come back and apologize if I'm wrong.
John Northey - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 07:02 PM EDT (#271771) #
Looking at that lineup, if I was Romero I'd probably have said a few not so nice words, or asked what I did to deserve that lineup.  Of course, given how we all feel watch them score 10 runs and play solid defense.
Mike Green - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 07:32 PM EDT (#271775) #
Over Matt Moore's career, opposing RHBs are .229/.309/.374.  Opposing LHBs are.234/.335/.346.  There is absolutely no reason to run out this lineup. 
timpinder - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#271776) #
Was Gibbons a little early on the hook there?
eudaimon - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 07:46 PM EDT (#271777) #
Well I'm definitely glad we have Edgar Gonzales to start in place of Romero here.

I'm only on Gameday. Was Romero as bad as he seemed?

ComebyDeanChance - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#271778) #
Was Gibbons a little early on the hook there?

Depends which team you cheer for.
Super Bluto - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#271779) #
Was Gibbons early on the hook?

Was only listening on the radio, but it seems like he had no faith that things would get better.

I wonder if he goes back down. Not like they can afford it, but...



eudaimon - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 07:49 PM EDT (#271780) #
In Gibby's defense the RH batters OPS is actually a bit better than the LH. Could it be an individual matchup thing?
China fan - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 07:49 PM EDT (#271781) #
Are the Jays cursed? Last season they lost 3 of their 5 starting pitchers to injury, and a 4th pitcher (Romero) imploded. Such bad luck that it couldn't possibly happen again, right? This year already they've lost 2 of their 5 starting pitchers to injury, and Romero has imploded again. The only good news is that Happ and Johnson might be back in a few weeks. But it's still early in the season -- more bad luck is sure to follow.
Alex Obal - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 07:56 PM EDT (#271782) #
When Romero started out aiming BP fastballs to Jennings, I thought uh oh here we go again. When Johnson singled on a curveball off his shoetops, I thought okay maybe the adversity will loosen Romero up a bit. Then the hits kept falling in.

I actually might have left him in there to face Lobaton and Fuld, but Gonzalez certainly did the job, and he's capable of pitching 5 or 6 innings if all goes well.
Mike Green - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#271783) #
Essentially, RHBs and LHBs have fared the same against Moore.  To have DeRosa at second and Bonifacio in centerfield is a really bad move, particularly in light of Romero's difficult situation.  He needs to have the best defence behind him for his confidence and to sacrifice that for no discernible offensive advantage is very, very frustrating. 
ComebyDeanChance - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 08:12 PM EDT (#271785) #
Moore at 50 pitches through 2.1 IP
Mike Green - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 09:18 PM EDT (#271786) #
Yay.  Another Bonifacio bunt attempt.  Fouled straight back so he was right on that fastball...
greenfrog - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#271787) #
That JJ might spend some time on the DL was foreseeable, as was the possibility (probability?) that Romero's issues might carry over into 2013. In spring training, AA said he was looking for a Happ-calibre 7th starter to add depth. He just couldn't find one at a less-than-exorbitant price.

The Happ injury was obviously a freak occurrence, though.
Magpie - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 09:59 PM EDT (#271788) #
Is it possible that the Ricky Romero rebuild needed just a little more than 7 innings in the Florida State League?

Now what? He ain't ready. One step forward and two steps back is going in the wrong direction.
timpinder - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 10:09 PM EDT (#271790) #
I've had more than enough of Bonifacio.  With another double so far today Negrych is batting .429 with an OPS well above 1.100.  What is AA waiting for?
greenfrog - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 10:22 PM EDT (#271791) #
Magpie, I was just thinking the same thing. At times the Jays really yo-yo their players from the minors to the majors and back again, although they've refrained from doing so with Gose and Thole -- for now.

KJ's slash line is currently looking pretty good. Hill, KJ, Izturis/Bonifacio/DeRosa...at this rate, the next Jays second baseman might end up being Gordon Beckham.
JohnL - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 10:45 PM EDT (#271792) #

Is it possible that the Ricky Romero rebuild needed just a little more than 7 innings in the Florida State League?

Hayhurst rakes the Jays about this, especially regarding Romero's mental outlook and confidence. eg:

...barring some miraculous turn of events, the Jays have ruined Romero.

...

Ricky was climbing out of a dark place only to be driven back into it. Lord only knows when he’ll feel ready or confident enough to trust himself again. Lord knows when he’ll trust the Jays again.

Ron - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 10:48 PM EDT (#271793) #
I wouldn't mind seeing Gibbons remove Lawrie from the lead off position. It sounds crazy but I wonder if Lawrie peaked at age 21 at the plate. There's a lot of movement when he's in the box. I don't recall seeing this much movement in 2011.
timpinder - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 10:50 PM EDT (#271794) #

Lawrie doesn't look very good at the plate.  He's far too busy.  His hands move, his front leg wobbles and his entire body teeters. 

I looked at highlights from his 2011 season.  He was MUCH quieter at the plate.  His hands still moved causing the bat to wobble a la Gary Sheffield (though much less violently than Sheffiled), but his front leg and core were almost static.  He had a much more calm and simple approach, and the results were great.

Why isn't Mottola doing anything about this?

Richard S.S. - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 10:51 PM EDT (#271796) #
Romero needs to go down, he's not any better than anyone in AAA. Any chance that he can pitch innings for the Team on his next Start is remote/impossible. When he can pitch 50.0+ quality innings in AAA, he comes back, not before. If he can't, then goodbye.

A.A. is to blame for this debacle, the price doesn't matter that much. Who's in AA that could come up for JJ. Then you can figure who comes up for Happ. After the Dickey deal there was decent arms available for 6th and 7th Starters without hoping Romero's back. At some time, quality has to matter more than money.
timpinder - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 10:51 PM EDT (#271797) #

Sorry Ron!  I was already typing but you beat me to it.

Isn't this was hitting coaches are paid for?  To notice these problems and correct them?

John Northey - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 11:01 PM EDT (#271799) #
I agree 100% with Hayhurst's column.  I thought at the time it seemed nuts to call up Romero after just one start, but hoped the Jays saw something or had him doing enough reps in fake games to make it so all they needed to see was that one game.  Sadly, it is obvious they made a major error in judgement.  3 solid innings, then he imploded in the 4th in his first start and now he just continued that trend this time.  Not much else can be said.  He'll have to be demoted one would think, with Gonzalez also going down so they can call up 2 guys to eat a few innings if needed.  Then when they need someone to start (either Romero's slot or Happ's) they'll call up a starter...who I do not know.

I suspect AA is burning up the phone lines tonight hunting for a starter who could be used in the rotation for awhile.  Even a AAA guy who has shown something this year.  Roger Clemens was looking at making a comeback...

Ron - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 11:02 PM EDT (#271800) #
"Isn't this was hitting coaches are paid for? To notice these problems and correct them?"

I wonder if the players even respect Walker and Mottola. Walker was a fringe major leaguer and Mottola only had a cup of coffee in the bigs. Both are also rookies in their roles at the big league level. Why would a proven successful veteran like Buehrle listen to any sort of advice from Walker? I can even see a player with a lot swagger like Lawrie tuning Mottola out. Lawrie is so confident I'm sure he believes he will snap out his funk soon without making any adjustments.
Four Seamer - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 11:10 PM EDT (#271802) #
Yowza, that was quite the provocative (and deadly accurate, at that) piece from Hayhurst you pointed us to, JohnL. It isn't very often you see a broadcaster take his own employer to task like that; he's no company man, that's for sure. That ought to leave quite a mark on AA.
Thomas - Wednesday, May 08 2013 @ 11:36 PM EDT (#271806) #
As opposed to a lot of the callers on the FAN 590, I think a lot of us viewed the promotion of Romero as a panic move that resulted from the team's poor performance to date. It wasn't a particularly controversial position, as the risk that a poor performance proves psychologically damaging to a player who at least appears to be struggling with the mental aspect of the game was significant. Particularly when that player hasn't had an opportunity to build a moderate but reasonably sized body of successful recent work to draw from.

Hayhurst was outspoken and critical of the move at soon as it was made, so this certainly isn't 20-20 hindsight.
hypobole - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 12:31 AM EDT (#271811) #
Ron, some of the best respected and successful coaches never even played in the majors. Jim Hickey in Tampa Bay and Kevin Long of the Yankees just to name two. Agree hiring 2 rookies was a risky move.
Oceanbound - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 04:48 AM EDT (#271813) #
Wow, Angel Hernandez strikes again. How this guy continues to be an umpire is beyond me. You can't even blame the lack of instant replay this time!
John Northey - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 07:14 AM EDT (#271814) #
For those who haven't seen it, the blown home run call that the umps couldn't get right even off of video.  Someone has to be fired or at least seriously fined over this.  The ball was very clearly a home run from what I could see and both the home town and visitor announcers saw it on the replay.  It couldn't be much clearer really.  Just glad it was the A's who had it done to them and not the Jays.

As I've said before, we need a 5th ump, one who stays in the press box or somewhere similar where he can review each play on tape and make all error/not error calls.  Also have robo-ump for balls-strikes and you'll have removed most of the bad calls in the game.  The 'human factor' should be the players, not the umpires.  We pay to see the best play the game, not to see if umpires can get calls right.
Thomas - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 07:48 AM EDT (#271816) #
There has been some atrocious umpiring this year, between Marty Foster's third strike to end the game, and, recently, John Hirschbeck's ejection of Bryce Harper and Angel Hernandez yesterday. While Foster admitted his mistake, Hernandez refused to talk to reporters unless the interview was not recorded and would not explain what he saw on the video that led to him determining there was not conclusive evidence.

There is a real problem with a lack of accountability in MLB umpiring that leads to people like Hernandez and Bob Davidson remaining employed and in prominent positions and feeling as if they have no need or reason to either improve their performance or explain their actions.
Chuck - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 07:58 AM EDT (#271817) #

It's one thing to blow a call in real time, and I know that in these parts I am one of the least sympathetic towards umpires when this happens. But to blow a call even when you get to use instant replay, well, that's a whole different level of ineptitude.

There is a real problem with a lack of accountability

You sing it, man. Far too many professions offer this "luxury".

ComebyDeanChance - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 08:11 AM EDT (#271819) #
...barring some miraculous turn of events, the Jays have ruined Romero.

...

Ricky was climbing out of a dark place only to be driven back into it. Lord only knows when he’ll feel ready or confident enough to trust himself again. Lord knows when he’ll trust the Jays again.


If Hayhurst's broadcasting career doesn't work out it looks like he has a bright future as a drama queen. I doubt there are very many people, beyond his fan club, who care the slightest about Dirk Hayhurst's histrionic pronouncements about Ricky Romero's psychological present or future.

What I saw last night was the same Romero I watched this spring, and the same Romero I watched last year - too many walks and an inability to get left handers out. I don't know if Romero could have improved with more time at Dunedin, or will ever improve at all, or whether his call up is a setback or will have no effect whatsoever. Neither does Hayhurst.

I recall that when the organization felt a pitcher needed psychological help in 2001, they sought out Harvey Dorfman, who unlike Hayhurst actually is a psychologist and unlike Hayhurst, actually has some expertise in the field. They didn't seek out a fringe broadcaster. Hayhurst reminds me a lot of Wilner, someone whose schtick is to pretend that he knows more than he does.
92-93 - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 09:21 AM EDT (#271821) #
Sounds just like some people I know around here.
Gerry - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 09:32 AM EDT (#271823) #
Romero to Buffalo. Edgar Gonzalez DFA. Ramon Ortiz and Mickey Storey called up.
ComebyDeanChance - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 09:43 AM EDT (#271825) #
Sounds just like some people I know around here.

Yes, I'm sure it rings a bell. The most obvious example is those pretending to have psychologist credentials a few years ago, advising us on the deep ,psychological trauma that was supposedly being inflicted on Travis Snider, a future HOFer and 'middle-of-the-order masher', because instead of the middle of the order, the masher was hitting at the bottom of the order or second. You in particular should be able to recall that.
92-93 - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 09:50 AM EDT (#271826) #
Was that around the time I was supposedly advocating the Jays sign Darvish?

And perhaps the Jays DID ruin Snider?
McNulty - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 09:51 AM EDT (#271827) #
In total agreement with timpinder about Lawrie's hitting mechanics. In 2011, it looks like he was standing closer to the plate with his hands lowered, and certainly was not diving into the ball like he is now. Even the home runs he hit in New York looked to be all arms and totally off balance. If he wasn't so strong and coordinated, he'd be in an even worse slump. 

Watching highly touted physically gifted "tools" guys like Lawrie, Rasmus, and others struggle mechanically  sort of makes me pine for players that were limited athletically, but could flat out hit. Frank Catalanotto didn't have the wheels, the arm, or much home run power, but his swing was basically slump proof. On this team, Melky Cabrera has a great approach and a nice short, quiet swing too. This  four game hot streak basically has gotten him back to where he should be.

I think there's little chance Bonifacio is DFA'd or sent down. Didn't AA specifically ask for him to be included in the trade? If that's the case, dumping him would be conceding quite a bit.

Paul D - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#271828) #
I went to BR and looked up Storey and was surprised - he looks like he might actually be able to pitch.
Mike Green - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 10:48 AM EDT (#271829) #
I certainly wouldn't say that the Blue Jays have ruined Romero, but the club's management of him this season has not been conducive to a successful return to form.  He did not face live batters for a month, the organization re-works his delivery, he has one outing in high A ball and is called up immediately to the Show.  After a somewhat difficult first outing, the manager unnecessarily puts out a terrible defence behind him in his second.  This is not the way to do it.

Brett Cecil threw an inning and a third in a blow-out last night.  If Gibbons felt that he needed the work, there were times earlier in the game when he could have come in to throw 2 innings or so which might have been more valuable to the club. 

Magpie - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#271830) #
Hayhurst reminds me a lot of Wilner

Hayhurst does have a perspective on things that Wilner and I don't have, some real life understanding on just "how hard all this is" as Ted Williams put it.

What surprises me most about Hayhurt's piece is how upset he is, which if nothing else indicates he hasn't been in the press box very long.
Magpie - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#271831) #
For those of you keeping score, the Blue Jays tried something similar with Roy Halladay in 2001.

The circumstances were somewhat different. Halladay was younger (he turned 24 in May 2001), he hadn't anything resembling Romero's success in the majors and Halladay's 2000 season was much, much worse than Romero's 2012.

Anyway, Halladay made 13 appearances in A ball - the first 8 were in relief. Then they moved up to AA for 5 starts. Then it was on to Syracuse for 2 more starts. He made his first major league appearance on July 2, out of the bullpen.
Mike Green - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 11:36 AM EDT (#271833) #
Storey is an interesting and good choice.

So, does this mean Ramon Ortiz gets a start or two?  I guess so.  I can't say that I am excited about it.  I really wish that the club had lengthened Lincoln and/or Cecil some time ago; this was foreseeable.

Chuck - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 11:47 AM EDT (#271834) #

Edgar Gonzalez DFA.

Yesterday, I was all set for a snarky comment about how Edgar should fear coming into a game because of the prevalent one-and-done DFA strategy that befell Ortiz, Bush, Jeffress and Germano. But I thought that this situation would be different, that while Gonzalez was nothing more than replacement level, the team needed a warm body for long relief.

Maybe this DFA is specifically due to the number of innings he logged last night and the fact that he'll need a few days rest now. Maybe the proximity of Buffalo means that the last man in the pen is a "virtual" job to continually be filled by the freshest replacement level arm available.

adrianveidt - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#271835) #
With another double so far today Negrych is batting .429 with an OPS well above 1.100. What is AA waiting for?
AA told McCown he wanted to see a bigger sample size from Negrych. But not from Ricky I guess...
Spifficus - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 11:59 AM EDT (#271836) #

I really wish that the club had lengthened Lincoln and/or Cecil some time ago; this was foreseeable.

The only success Lincoln has ever had in the majors was as a reliever, and when they did try to lengthen him out in the spring to take advantage of his arsenal he developed shoulder soreness. I can't see how trying it again so soon would end well. As for Cecil, he's had two years in a row of mediocre to bad performance as a starter, appears to finally be in a role that works for him, and still hasn't shown any improvement against right-handers in spite of increased velocity. I would rather hope for 5 innings of 3 runs from Ortiz and leave the others in place (while keeping a watchful eye for more useful parts when opt-outs start kicking in on minor league deals).

Mike Green - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 12:14 PM EDT (#271837) #
Ramon Ortiz has made 4 starts in the major leagues since 2007.  He has thrown 17.1 innings and allowed 17 runs in those 4 starts. His somewhat passable stats in 2010/2011 result from his being used most often in a relief role.  He is 40 years old, so it's a good bet that he won't be improving. 

I think that Cecil (and probably Lincoln) can do quite a bit better than that.  At this point, the club has Dickey, Morrow and Buehrle, with Johnson, Romero and Happ back later.  It is easy to imagine that this can drag on to 3 or 4 starts.
Ryan Day - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 12:25 PM EDT (#271838) #
It's frustrating that the Jays hit the panic button with Romero - both in calling him up & sending him down - but continue to hang onto Blanco & Bonifacio despite a) their dreadful performances, and b) probably better players available at AAA.
Thomas - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#271839) #

I wonder if Aaron Laffey is regretting his decision to opt for free agency.

timpinder - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#271840) #

"AA told McCown he wanted to see a bigger sample size from Negrych"

2011:  .304/.370/.402 in 281 AB in AA

2012:  .270/.366/.402 in 398 AB in AA and AAA (almost exclusively AAA)

And of course we know what he's done this year.  The sample size is actually quite large.  Even if you discount this year's statistics, I think a .260/.350/.380 is a realistic expectation, which is better than what I expect to see from Bonficacio and the defense can't possibly be any worse.  He'd also be a better fit with matchups, giving the Jays another left-handed bat.  Bonifacio becomes reduntant when you have Davis on the team.

John Northey - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#271841) #
No question in my mind that Gonzalez was up until he had to be used for a few innings.  Right now the pen is tired - Oliver and the new guys are the only ones with 2 or more days of rest.  Delabar had yesterday off but threw 20 pitches the day before that and 34 total over the past 4.  Janssen had the day off after 2 straight 10 pitch outtings.  Lincoln had yesterday off but threw 37 pitches 2 days ago so won't be available.  Loup likewise had 28 pitches 2 days ago so might be available but not for much.  Rogers & Cecil were both used yesterday (34/21 pitches respectively).  The pen has to be getting tired and after Dickey tonight we have Morrow then Buehrle - neither of whom I'd bet on making it through more than 6 innings followed by good ol' TBA which will be a mess most likely.

The hope for a few days was fun wasn't it?  Big comeback wins vs the Rays. 
Spifficus - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 02:32 PM EDT (#271842) #

I think that Cecil (and probably Lincoln) can do quite a bit better than that.

Sure, but my main point is that I would rather throw a replacement level arm out there than risk the foundations of success that have started to build for those two by trying for a bit more due to an emergency need. Whether that replacement arm is Ortiz or another is a separate matter entirely to me.

Mike Green - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 02:41 PM EDT (#271843) #
Ortiz is sub-replacement, I think, at Blanco level if you will.  If you need someone to do mop-up duty in the pen in a pinch, he'll do, but as a starter, no thanks...

If the club had a pitcher who I thought was reasonably likely to go 5 innings and give up 3 runs on average in a start, I would feel entirely differently about it.  I don't see anyone.  That was my point 3 weeks ago. 

Magpie - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 03:03 PM EDT (#271844) #
I would rather throw a replacement level arm out there than risk the foundations of success that have started to build for those two by trying for a bit more due to an emergency need.

I agree completely! The Peter Principle states that "In a hierarchy, every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence." (The classic example, of course, is Captain Kirk being promoted to Admiral.) If anyone understands how this works on a pitching staff, it ought to be Pete Walker. Walker made a habit of pitching well enough in relief to get himself promoted to the rotation. Which was not his first, best destiny.
Alex Obal - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#271845) #
So never let anyone rise, and you'll never be disappointed...
Alex Obal - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 03:29 PM EDT (#271846) #
Or kill the hierarchy and have everyone pitch three or four innings at a time, unless they're Matt Harvey...
eudaimon - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 03:29 PM EDT (#271847) #
Time to give Livan Hernandez a call
Chuck - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 03:33 PM EDT (#271848) #

I agree completely!

Ditto.

Cecil has found success as a LOOGY. Maybe, just maybe, he can grow up to be Scott Downs one day. For now, accept that he is able to contribute at all, because that was certainly not a given.

Lincoln, too, would seem to have the tools to be a very strong reliever. Last summer's success in Pittsburgh attests to that.

I'd even apply this principle to the very talented Lawrie. Lawrie is the poster boy for twitch reflexes. He has shown terrific ability at third base. Why mess with that? Why even entertain the idea of moving him to the middle of the diamond? Were he a shortstop or second baseman, he'd have far too much time to think before throwing. Even when he plays rover on the shift, he's using him same fundamental skills. See ball. React. Throw. Bay the moon.

I do agree that there can be a peril in too quickly converting everyone to a reliever and moving everyone too far to the left on the defensive spectrum. I guess the trick is to know who has Petered out and who can be thrust into a more demanding role. That said, I am surprised by middling pitchers who sometimes turn into decent starters, so maybe I'd be too cautious as a manager.

Alex Obal - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#271850) #
I don't know why you'd ever move Lawrie off third, unless you traded for Longoria. Third base is a scarce position as it is, and it suits Lawrie perfectly.
Chuck - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 03:51 PM EDT (#271851) #
I don't know why you'd ever move Lawrie off third, unless you traded for Longoria. Third base is a scarce position as it is, and it suits Lawrie perfectly.

Agree entirely, which is why I found it very strange that they toyed with the idea of moving him to second base (and went so far as to play him at second base during his rehab, though it may have only been for one game).
Mike Green - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#271853) #
So, Chuck and Magpie, you think that they're better off to send Ramon Ortiz out there for 4 starts?  It's not about theory in this case, it's about cold hard options.  I agree that Brett Cecil has adapted well to relief, and would not pitch as well as a starter.  He is, however, being used in low-to-medium leverage relief thanks to the presence of Oliver. 

Obviously, my ideal would be to send Lincoln out for 3 innings, followed by Cecil for 3.  If you like, you can call Cecil's work "scheduled relief", as Bill James called it when Felipe Alou did it for the Expos.  I know that aint happening because mountains would fall into the sea...

Alex Obal - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 04:14 PM EDT (#271856) #
Ask for 6, watch them give you 9...

I agree that Brett Cecil has adapted well to relief, and would not pitch as well as a starter.

I'm not even convinced of this. I mean, you could try to gradually ease him into longer appearances, particularly if you're not using him as a lefty specialist (it's not like this team is dying for help getting LHBs out, and it's not like this team has a bullpen workload shortage.) Wouldn't want to stretch him out right away, obviously, but...
Chuck - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#271857) #

you think that they're better off to send Ramon Ortiz out there for 4 starts?   It's not about theory in this case, it's about cold hard options.

I think all "solutions" to this problem are ugly. Sub-replacement starters Ortiz and Bush figure to be run-an-inning types. But I'd be very concerned about Cecil facing a RH-heavy lineup and Brad Lincoln's track record suggests he ain't no starter (but may be a decent reliever).

I'm certainly not entrenched in my position, but I'd sooner one sacrificial lamb, like Ortiz, who has no future with the team rather than two who do. But the team is 10 games under .500, so everything should open for discussion.

It wasn't that long ago that the team had too many starters and concerns about depth were given short shrift. The gods do love punishing hubris.

Mike Green - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#271858) #
Ask for 6, watch them give you 9...

Touche (couldn't make the HTML for the accent work)
Nigel - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#271859) #
All of this discussion may not matter.  Davidi is reporting that Morrow is also injured enough to have to have his start pushed back for a day or two.  Ortiz joining the rotation may be a given, the discussion might need to turn to who else needs to join it.
Thomas - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#271863) #

Morrow is apparently ready to start on Sunday. Davidi first reported this late last night and the prognosis hasn't changed.

That being said, with the number of times "a couple of days" has turned into something longer with this front office, I'm nearly at the stage of I'll believe it when Morrow's making his warmup tosses in the pen.

Magpie - Thursday, May 09 2013 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#271864) #
So never let anyone rise, and you'll never be disappointed

True, but Brett Cecil has already disappointed me as a starter. Now there's a possibility that, like Scott Downs before him, he's finding a role in the major leagues that he can perform. I wouldn't want to mess with that.
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