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Back on planet Earth, they shatter the illusion, the world's going round in a state of confusion.

Dylan Axelrod (0-1, 5.79) goes on the hill for the White Sox. Josh Johnson (0-1, 11.05) will do the same for the home side.
Game Thread - 4/16 vs. Chicago White Sox | 37 comments | Create New Account
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Richard S.S. - Tuesday, April 16 2013 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#270459) #
Some of A.A's moves work, probably because he makes so many, it overloads other teams. Jeffress might just be salvageable if he get pitches under control. Perhaps taking a little off his fastball for better control.

The hitting is coming around, meshing together. Starters are developing better control, better stuff and that's encouraging. The defense should be better with Lawrie's return although his bat will be a little behind. I suspect Bautista's back spasms were 3B induced, hopefully letting him play RF tonight. What's happened to Josh Johnson's fastball, it's barely high 80's? If he wants a big contract after this year he needs to really step up, especially if the Team's going to win tonight.
greenfrog - Tuesday, April 16 2013 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#270460) #
Bautista is out of the lineup tonight. Bonifacio is playing RF.

https://twitter.com/BlueJays
92-93 - Tuesday, April 16 2013 @ 06:12 PM EDT (#270461) #
I'm surprised at Lawrie batting 6th. I figured he'd come in as the #1 or #5. I like Gibbons' decision, though. Lind's numbers aren't good on the season but he does seem to be taking good ABs and this offense really needs him to get going vs. RHP if it's going to be able to withstand injuries to guys like Reyes & Bautista.

The boys have the pitching advantage the next 3 days (they miss Peavy) so let's sweep em out of town.
JB21 - Tuesday, April 16 2013 @ 08:09 PM EDT (#270462) #
Lawrie ranging to his left and Colby connecting with the ball is a joy to watch. (understatement)
greenfrog - Tuesday, April 16 2013 @ 09:11 PM EDT (#270464) #
What's happened to Josh Johnson's fastball, it's barely high 80's?

I think JJ put that concern to rest with his start tonight.
JB21 - Tuesday, April 16 2013 @ 09:41 PM EDT (#270465) #
Bonifacio just let a ball go over his head that hit grass, every MLB CF in the league catches that ball.

Rajai Davis just let Paul Korenko score on a not-very-deep sac fly.

Not enjoying those two so far this year. Especially in the OF.
timpinder - Tuesday, April 16 2013 @ 09:43 PM EDT (#270466) #
What are people's thoughts on Bonifacio? I really think he should be permanently relocated to the bench. It seems like every at bat he squares up to bunt on the first pitch and starts 0-1, and then strikes out on a high fastball. His defense has been terrible as well. I have been very unimpressed these first two weeks.
ComebyDeanChance - Tuesday, April 16 2013 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#270468) #
Pretty odd to blame Boni for being in center. Very poor managing pinch hitting in the 8th for Rasmus and having a late inning outfield with Boni in center and Davis in right. To hit Rajai Davis twice for Rasmus? Those kinds of bad decisions will lose lots of games.
Thomas - Tuesday, April 16 2013 @ 10:04 PM EDT (#270469) #
In an alternate universe - one where teams are willing to use a 6-man bullpen - the manager of the Blue Jays, having decided to pinch-hit for Rasmus against left-handed pitching, is able to insert Casper Wells (career OPS against LHP of .838) into the lineup instead of Rajai Davis (career OPS against LHP of .764). If this manager decides to move Bonifacio into CF - a role where Bonifacio has been anything but impressive - the manager is able to play Casper Wells (19 career assists in 1,401 defensive innings) in right field instead of Rajai Davis (31 career assists in 4,826 defensive innings). Later in that game, that manager is able to pinch-run for Adam Lind (6 career stolen bases), who represents the tying run when he reaches first base with none out and a base open in front of him, with Rajai Davis (225 career stolen bases). However, that manager is unable to warm up Ramon Ortiz in the late innings of that baseball game.

I've made my thoughts on this matter clear enough, I suppose.
Chuck - Tuesday, April 16 2013 @ 10:08 PM EDT (#270470) #
Odd scene in the 9th. Lawrie hits a flyball for the 1st out, scoring Encarnacion from 3rd, a result the White Sox would gladly take a hundred times over. Lawrie is then greeted with high 5's in the dugout. I would not have expected jeers, or even a  lukewarm greeting for that matter. I get that you want to support a teammate, especially one just back from injury. But the hero's welcome Pavlovian response to a sac fly, as if context didn't matter, just seemed weird.
ComebyDeanChance - Tuesday, April 16 2013 @ 10:17 PM EDT (#270471) #
No need to go to alternate universes Thomas, the simple move was to leave your starting centerfielder in the game. It was the 8th inning at home for gawdsake. Colby could have come to the plate, turned his back and taken three strikes down the middle and they still would have had two outs in the bottom of the inning. And you'd have your starting centerfielder in the game, who can hit the next inning as well perhaps, or in the 10th, against a righthander.

It was simply a poor decision which as it turned out cost the game. Watching Davis up against Reed in the 9th just made it agonizing.

On a personal level I want to see Gibbons succeed. He's such a nice guy and a good guy. But this was simply bad managing that came back to bite hard. It's really possible that Gibbons will be fired mid-season again.
Richard S.S. - Tuesday, April 16 2013 @ 10:57 PM EDT (#270472) #
Reyes is missing and not adequately replaced - for the next 90 days. That's not satisfactory. Between back spasms and an ear infection, Bautista could be gone for at least a week. At present, his replacement is sadly lacking. Lawrie is at least two full weeks behind everyone in getting his hitting up to par. The team still had almost enough offense, missing "three" bats.

Starters are pitching better, but still making careless mistakes. Is Delabar not trusting his stuff or arm's tired or is J.P. not making the best use of his stuff? I ask because Delabar is better than this. Nice outing by Oliver.
Thomas - Tuesday, April 16 2013 @ 10:58 PM EDT (#270473) #
CBDC, I agree entirely that Gibbons deployed his resources quite poorly in the latter innings, leading to having no speed on the bench and a worse defensive CF and RF in return for having Davis hit for Rasmus against a lefty, which isn't a sufficient upgrade to make those sacrifices worth it.

My point was simply that today was a great illustration of the lack of flexibility and ability to make in-game tactical adjustments that having a short bench leaves the team with.

I don't agree with how AA has constructed the last few spots on the roster. I also agree that given how those spots have been utilized, Gibbons mismanaged them in today's game.
John Northey - Tuesday, April 16 2013 @ 11:36 PM EDT (#270474) #
As to replacements... well, kind of hard to have ones who can fill in for Reyes, Lawrie and Bautista who can produce at anywhere near their levels.  Why?  Because the 3 of them are freaking all-star calibre players and if you can have a bench of guys like that then you are a 120 win team.

Honestly... think about it - we've had Bautista miss 5 games out of 14, Reyes is up to 4 and will miss another 60+ most likely, Lawrie missed the first 13, and Bonifacio has not missed a game yet.  That is seriously messed up.  Dickey and Buehrle have ERA+'s sub 80.  Santos threw 4 1/3 innings before going down, again.  Romero is in A+ ball.  Plus Oliver seems to have forgotten he didn't retire last winter.

Now, given all that being 2 games under 500 and 3 1/2 back isn't as bad as it could be.  Heck, the Jays are 1 1/2 ahead of Tampa.

Charlie - Tuesday, April 16 2013 @ 11:44 PM EDT (#270475) #
A manager's cardinal rule should be the same as a physician's: first, do no harm.

Gibbons decided to pinch hit Rajai to lead off the 7th (not the 8th) in order to gain 60 points of OBP over Rasmus for that one low leverage at-bat in which he was sure to face a lefty. The potential cost was two innings of terrible CF defence from Bonifacio, the pop-gun arm of Davis in RF, the lack of a potential pinch runner further down the line, and the potential for a high leverage at-bat for Davis in the 9th. Murphy's law struck in a somewhat spectacular way and the result is a loss in a game that could well have been won.

Thomas makes a good point about the short bench but it's a separate point. The benefits of this move paled in comparison to the risk. Do no harm Gibby, do no harm.
Mylegacy - Tuesday, April 16 2013 @ 11:51 PM EDT (#270476) #
Wish I could invite everyone around to my place for a wee dram (or two).

Seems to me we need a bit of chillin' to take place. Lost is all the angst is that JJ had a good game. The starting pitching is starting to look something near what we expected. Lawrie is back. Corners are being turned, single malt is being sipped, hope is rising, and the new Superman and Star Trek movies are near... peace, calm...now - lets go kick some Chicago butt the next three games!

Kasi - Tuesday, April 16 2013 @ 11:58 PM EDT (#270477) #
I agreed with the criticisms of Bonefacio and taking Erasmus out prematurely, but can we please let the idea of a six man bullpen die. It's just not happening in this day and age. 7 man bullpens are here to stay. Would be nice to not run with 8 but no one is running with 6.
katman - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 12:02 AM EDT (#270478) #
Bonifacio continues to play himself out of the major leagues. I don't know what his statistical WAR is, but his Observed WAR is about -3.0 or -4.0, given the games he has cost us already. It's now in ridiculous territory. You can't be a super-sub if you can't play any defensive position at a AAA level.

At this point, I'm fine with sending him down and taking Casper Wells off waivers. If Bonifacio is claimed, he's claimed. But stop the bleeding. Step 2 would send Ortiz down and bring up Goins, who can play 2B and shortstop. I'd love to bring up Negrych, but if something happens in-game to Kawaski, we have no reasonable option.
Four Seamer - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 12:33 AM EDT (#270480) #
I remember well the agonies inflicted by the likes of Roy Lee Jackson and Joey McLaughlin, but in all my years watching the Jays, I don't recall anything as painful as watching Emilio Bonifacio embarass himself night after night in the field. Although that "throw" from Rajai Davis in right was also something to behold.

Instead of being strictly critical, however, let me add that I hope Buffalo Bisons fans are feverish with anticipation for the coming Emilio Bonifacio Era, because the Queen City is certainly where he deserves to spend the next five months.
jamesq - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 12:46 AM EDT (#270481) #
I don't know if Rasmus would have caught the liner over Bonifacio's head in the ninth, but I would have rather had him out there over Bonifacio in a close game- just goes to show how defense is undervalued. That said, it was also a short sighted move to pull Rasmus from the game in the 7th (especially with the way he was swinging the bat tonight), you had to expect that his spot in the line up would have another at bat later on and that chances were it would be against a righthander. I called it as soon as he was pulled, ask my gf.
Thomas - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 01:09 AM EDT (#270482) #
can we please let the idea of a six man bullpen die. It's just not happening in this day and age. 7 man bullpens are here to stay. Would be nice to not run with 8 but no one is running with 6.

These are how many innings pitched each of the Jays starters averaged in 2012 per start:
R.A. Dickey - 7.1
Brandon Morrow - 5.9
Mark Buehrle - 6.5
Josh Johnson - 6.2
JA Happ - 5.6

This pace would require the bullpen to pitch 13.7 innings every five games (assuming an even 9 innings a game). Even acknowledging that there be small stretches where the bullpen may be taxed pretty heavily because of a few bad starts in a row, I don't see why a six man bullpen couldn't handle that workload, especially when you add off days.

The Jays have 3 of the top 43 pitchers in the MLB in 2012 in terms of innings pitched. The 2012 Jays had none. If you want to tell me that the 2012 Jays would have really suffered trying to carry a six-man bullpen to the point where it wouldn't really have been feasible, I won't argue. But until it has been proven not to work, I don't see anything here to suggest the 2013 Jays need 7 relievers, let alone 8.

This is different from the well-reasoned criticism of Gibbons' managerial moves during this game that Charlie made and others, including myself, noted earlier. Given the players available to him tonight, I believe Gibbons absolutely made the wrong call in today's game and gained a small advantage for a larger disadvantage later and eliminated the possibility of deploying Davis more usefully later.

92-93 - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 01:33 AM EDT (#270483) #
I didn't really see the point of PHing in the 7th inning, but if I was going to I would've used DeRosa for Kawasaki and left Rajai on the bench. It ends up looking really bad when Lind is the tying run in the 9th and you can't pinch run for him. When Rajai was up I was actually rooting for a GB that would erase the lead runner so that at least we could get Lind off the basepaths that way and then have Rajai steal his way into scoring position.

It sure is nice to have pitchers going into the 7th and Lawrie back manning the hot corner.
China fan - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 07:25 AM EDT (#270484) #
I expected fans to turn against Gibbons, as they turned against Farrell and Gaston and every other manager in history, but I must admit that I never expected it to happen after less than 9 per cent of the season. People are already predicting that he'll get fired in mid-season? Goodness gracious.

If we are imagining alternative universes where Casper Wells delivers the dramatic late-inning game-winning hit, I hope we also permitted to imagine an equally plausible hypothetical scenario for the past couple games: Johnson or Buehrle gets knocked out of the game in the 3rd or 4th inning, the bullpen gets burned up, relievers heroically offer to pitch for 2 or 3 innings, and key pitchers end up following Santos onto the DL list. (Yes, I know that Loup and Rogers have done multi-inning stints this year, and it can be done again, but I also know that the Jays bullpen has pitched more innings than any other team in the division this season, and we can't assume that they can just blithely continue at that pace without consequences, especially so early in the year.)

The real reason for the Jays troubles, in my view, are the injuries to three of their most important players: Reyes, Bautista and Lawrie, and the cold bats of the Jays offense in general, which is scoring less than 3.9 runs per game, the second-worst performance in the division. (And let's not imagine that Lawrie is back to mid-season hitting form on his first game after a 6-week injury rehab.)

On the quibbling over the managerial decisions, we tend to forget that these are always gambles, and many of them are guaranteed to be failed gambles, because baseball gambles always have a high probability of not succeeding -- which make it easy for us to criticize afterwards. For a more balanced response, here's another way of looking at it:

http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2013/04/17/searching-in-vain-for-a-culprit/
Jonny German - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 08:07 AM EDT (#270486) #
I'm happy with Gibbons so far, he's a vast improvement over Farrell on & off the field. But I'm with the consensus here, pinch hitting Davis for Rasmus was not a great idea.

What I really wonder tho, is what is the motivation for playing Lind at first and Encarnacion at DH rather than vice versa? I'm thinking EE is a guy you never want to pinch hit for, while Lind is a guy you want to replace as soon as a lefty reliever comes on. If Lind is at first base, pinch hitting for him means either

a) you have to use DeRosa or

b) you use Davis or Bonifacio but then have to bring in DeRosa on defence or

c) you use Davis or Bonifacio but then have to have him play right field with Bautista coming in to play 1B

All of these have significant downsides in my opinion. Whereas if Lind was DHing Gibbons would be free to use anybody as the PH with no secondary considerations.

And if Casper Wells was on the roster he'd have a RH bat worth talking about...

Anyways. Is there reason to believe Lind is a better defensive 1B than EE? My impression is that they're both middling.
Magpie - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 08:12 AM EDT (#270487) #
These are how many innings pitched each of the Jays starters averaged in 2012 per start

It's true that Gibbons generally always carried a seven man bullpen in his first tour. I don't think he's the kind to reinvent the wheel, and there are real reasons managers like these huge pens. But still - quite often Gibbons' seventh guy man someone who was never going to get into a game anyway. There was one year Jordan de Jong spent almost two months on the roster and in the pen. How often did he pitch? Anyway, I have trouble believing Gibbons wanted eight guys out there. But who knows.
Magpie - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 08:24 AM EDT (#270488) #
Is there reason to believe Lind is a better defensive 1B than EE? My impression is that they're both middling.

None whatsoever, and "middling" is more than either deserve. Encarnacion's below average, and Lind is below Encarnacion. I would assume that the main reason Lind was playing first last night was be to keep the smell of mothballs away from his glove, as the team may need him to use it from time to time.
Mike Green - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 08:36 AM EDT (#270489) #
An additional factor in the Davis-Rasmus PH decision ought to have been the particular LH pitcher on the mound.  Santiago has an effective screwball, and doesn't have large platoon splits. I winced when Davis was sent out to pinch-hit.

I am wondering what precisely Janssen's role is.  Normally in a 2-2 game in the ninth at home with Delabar having thrown an inning, you would expect Janssen to come on.  I guess that the club is trying to avoid throwing him on back-to-back nights, which does put the club in a bit of a spot.  With Santos out, Gibbons needs to redefine the roles of Loup, Oliver and Cecil, I think.



Thomas - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 09:24 AM EDT (#270491) #

"Johnson or Buehrle gets knocked out of the game in the 3rd or 4th inning, the bullpen gets burned up, relievers heroically offer to pitch for 2 or 3 innings, and key pitchers end up following Santos onto the DL list. (Yes, I know that Loup and Rogers have done multi-inning stints this year, and it can be done again, but I also know that the Jays bullpen has pitched more innings than any other team in the division this season, and we can't assume that they can just blithely continue at that pace without consequences, especially so early in the year.)"

Before yesterday's game, Aaron Loup and Esmil Rogers had combined to pitch to six batters over the previous three games. In none of those three games did the team's eighth reliever pitch. In the event of Johnson having been knocked out early last night, I am going to assume that they could have completed a multi-inning stretch that shouldn't be characterized as heroic and that they would likely have suffered no greater chance of injury as a result that the inherent risk of injury present every time a pitcher takes the mound. (At least as far as can be discerned by an outside observer, I'm open to hearing evidence that counters this point, but relievers like Luis Perez and Sergio Santos weren't being overworked before suffering serious arm injuries.)

I don't think fans are turning on Farrell. Many of us still think he's a good manager. That doesn't mean he's infallible or that a reasonable consideration of the game and options at his disposal doesn't suggest that the Jays would likely have had a better chance of winning the game if he hadn't managed the game the way he did.

92-93 - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 09:48 AM EDT (#270492) #
"relievers heroically offer to pitch for 2 or 3 innings"

HAHAHAHAHAHA. This is just too much. It's now heroism for a reliever to throw 2-3 innings. When did this mentality set in among fans?!

"Normally in a 2-2 game in the ninth at home with Delabar having thrown an inning, you would expect Janssen to come on."

Personally, I loved seeing Delabar stay in the game instead of immediately going to Janssen. He got squeezed a little and it didn't work out, but the team will be better off down the road if everybody gets it out of their head that after an inning of 16 effective pitches it's time to yank a reliever.

And just imagine if one of "the internet kiddies" suggested the new manager may be fired 2 weeks into the season.
Magpie - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 10:23 AM EDT (#270493) #
after an inning of 16 effective pitches it's time to yank a reliever

I think it depends. There are, at any given moment, more than 200 relief pitchers gainfully employed in the majors leagues. And sonovagun, but I don't think even half of them could be described as good pitchers. I think you've really got a few good pitchers, and a whole bunch of guys who can come charging out of the bullpen, full of adrenalin and excitement, and do a credible Goose Gossage imitation for... oh, 16 pitches. Then they go sit down in the dugout and lose their mojo. Because they're not really Goose Gossage at all. They're just a modern reliever.

I don't have a big problem with Delabar coming back out for the second inning because one of the things Gibbons - or any manager - has to do at this point of the season is find out what he's got. Which of the guys in his pen are the actual pitchers, that he can confidently send out there for a second inning. And which of them are just modern relievers, to be used accordingly.
Mike Green - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#270494) #
Gibbons has been erratic about that so far this season, often preferring to go for the platoon advantage. 

I don't have a problem with Delabar throwing 2 innings in general.  2-2 in the ninth with Adam Dunn up is a bit high leverage for my taste.  I'd rather send him out with a 4-2 lead in the seventh or something and have him go 2 (or 3) innings.


China fan - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 11:19 AM EDT (#270496) #
Some people obviously didn't get my point about "heroism" among relievers. Of course 2 or 3 innings is fine for some relievers in some situations. It wouldn't have been fine for Santos, for example, when he was on the verge of the DL list. Yet some fans, ignorant of the health of pitchers, would have assumed that Santos is fine, based on the number of innings he had previously thrown. And pitchers often try to stay in games, or volunteer for more innings, when they shouldn't. That's reckless heroism.

The point is that we, as fans, are ignorant of the health of pitchers, and we can't just assume that the Jays should keep tossing them into games, based on the number of innings in their previous games. Health is about more than innings.
China fan - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 11:28 AM EDT (#270497) #
Just to illustrate my point about the wrongness of some assumptions about relievers: last season a Bauxite expressed outrage that the Jays hadn't used Jason Frasor in a key situation in a game. He seemed well-rested, he hadn't pitched for a few games -- why wasn't he used? The manager must be stupid, right? It emerged a couple days later that Frasor had a nagging injury that wasn't enough to put him on the DL but was enough to make him unavailable for a few games.

Those kinds of injuries are often NOT announced publicly. For strategic reasons, the team might want to conceal those injuries, so that the opposing team doesn't know exactly what hitting match-ups to use in the late innings. Something for people to remember when attacking a manager's use of the pitching staff.
92-93 - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 11:47 AM EDT (#270498) #
Encarnacion has DHed 3 of the last 4 games, and Bautista might have back spasms from playing 3B. This offense can't survive without those 2 guys healthy.
jjdynomite - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 12:11 PM EDT (#270500) #
I think many have been guilty -- myself included -- of thinking Bonifacio is a plus player given his 2011 season of 107 OPS+ and 2.7 WAR, plus his follow-up 2012 season was injury-riddled and he still managed 30 SB.

Unfortunately, that 2011 season appears to be an outlier, and considering Boni's skill set is predicated on speed and not power nor (obviously) defense, it just ain't looking good for him, nor for the Jays' offence with Reyes and Bats on the shelf.
Thomas - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 12:37 PM EDT (#270501) #

"And pitchers often try to stay in games, or volunteer for more innings, when they shouldn't. That's reckless heroism."

If Santos is unavailable because he was complaining of arm trouble, as he may have been immediately prior to his DL stint, you don't pitch him. It's not complicated. It's entirely on Gibbons if he calls upon Santos to throw 2 or 3 innings, given the pitcher's injury last year and upon him complaining of arm troubles.

If Santos has never alerted Gibbons to his injury, that's on Santos. It may be understandable, but there's an onus on the player to alert management to a potential injury. A manager can't manage a bullpen on the assumption that relievers are hiding soreness and potential injuries.

And as per the Frasor example, nobody is suggesting Bauxites are omniscient. If Aaron Loup and Esmil Rogers go on the DL tomorrow with arm injuries, I will probably withdraw these criticisms (although I will likely have new questions as to why AA tried to survive several days with two potentially injured pitchers in the bullpen). However, I'm not going to refrain from commenting on roster and in-game management decisions on the assumption that every move the front office and coaching staff is optimal.

China fan - Wednesday, April 17 2013 @ 12:50 PM EDT (#270502) #
Just to be clear: I'm not asking anyone to refrain from criticism of the Jays management. I enjoy the debate on this site. I just don't want it to be a one-sided series of attacks. So when I can see another side of the argument, I feel it should be noted. Often we don't hear the flip side of the argument because it hasn't arisen in the daily press conferences and media interviews by the beat reporters who cover the Jays. I hope nobody objects to me, or others, sometimes making a note of what the likely response might be.

Nor do I have any sycophantic relationship to the team. If they hadn't boosted the payroll substantially this year, I would have been as critical of the Jays as anyone. My motivation is simply a desire fairness: I think the criticism by some fans is sometimes unfair because it neglects the likely counter-argument from the team. In the interests of making it a better debate, and to cover the points more accurately, I'm giving the counter-argument. I hope it sharpens the focus of our debates and forces us to provide evidence for our arguments.
Game Thread - 4/16 vs. Chicago White Sox | 37 comments | Create New Account
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