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Ok, ok, I'll admit it: I grin a little bit when A-Rod's name comes up in this stuff. Am I alone?

I'm not sure why. Because he's a Yankee? No, I made an eight foot wide dollar bill with his face on it to heckle him when he was still a Ranger. Because of the absurd amount of money? Well, maybe. And maybe because of the swagger and public persona, or my impression of them.

But I softened a bit when I heard that he had a painting of himself as a Minotaur. Who can't relate to dreams of being a Minotaur?

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John Northey - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 06:02 AM EST (#268407) #
My big concern would be how this could affect the Jays.  A place in Miami having these issues when a big part of the Jays team is from the Miami team - seems to be a bit of a risk there.  Not saying any of them have used PED's but if you are a pro athlete who spent lots of time in Miami then you have to be viewed as an 'at risk' candidate right now.  Cabrera was more confirming what was already known from last year.

As to A-Rod, I just hope the Yankees don't get out from his contract.  Can't imagine they could as I've never heard of a 'no PED' clause in the contract.  Unless he gets caught 3 times (50 games #1, 100 #2, lifetime #3) the Yankees have to pay out his contract and if caught now that would just be strike one as his confession didn't lead to a suspension.

AWeb - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 09:40 AM EST (#268409) #

I think it's likely that if Rodriguez has been using PEDs for the last few years, it's been counter-productive to him actually getting healthy. I suspect he's trying to maintain the workouts he did when he was younger (and definitely on something), and his body simply can't recover anymore, even with the help. I find it somewhat sad that he might be done; as recently as two years ago, it seemed possible he could catch the all time record for Runs, RBIs, HRs, and K's; barring a miraculous recovery, none of those seems possible anymore.  A deeply weird guy, who I rooted for when he wasn't playing the Jays, just because I always hope for the historic.

Can the Yankees simply give him a huge cheque to buy-out his contract and get under the cap that way?

Also, if this story pans out, doesn't it seem stupid to organize cheating at such a massive level? An investigation could hit the company from any of a hundred different directions, and take everyone else down. Like the tennis player who had already been suspended for two years previously...I'd stay as far away from a place he was going as possible. So many guys going to the same doctor seems absurd. But then pro-athletes aren't noted for their humility or ability to think about the downside of things (neither are some doctors). I wonder if anyone will emerge as the "canseco" for this one - again, if true, there must have been a pretty impressive recruitment procedure for athletes...

Mike Green - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 10:11 AM EST (#268410) #
"the canseco" would be a helluva name for a cocktail. 

The question with Bonds and A-Rod is a musical one: "how long has this been going on?"  With Bonds, most of us intuited that it was 1997 or 1998.  With A-Rod, I have not a clue.  He says that it started in 2000. He played in Seattle that year and didn't sign with the Rangers until January, 2001.  Why it would be 2000 instead of 1997 or 1995 or 1991 (when he was in high school in Miami), I have no idea.  It's not like Bonds where you can see the career path and the body changes and the logic (keeping up with McGwire and Sosa). 

Richard S.S. - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 12:07 PM EST (#268411) #

Ball Players are basically lazy.   The distance between Dunedin (Team-owned site) and Miami is around 360 Km (225 miles), a 3 1/2 - 4 hour drive.   To go for food, entertainment or sex might be a reason to travel so, but to get drugs and find the address - Ball Players aren't that bright.   That being said, it's not impossible.

Buying out or somehow getting free of A-Rod (and his salary) before the 2014 season is a must for New York - it's only money.   It makes getting under the Tax-Line for NY so much easier.  And if they dump his, who's next?

92-93 - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 12:11 PM EST (#268412) #
Thank you to the person who finally changed the logo on the site. I cared way more about that than which player did or didn't take PEDs, which should be legal.
JohnL - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 01:05 PM EST (#268418) #
Yup. That logo looks really good there.
CeeBee - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 01:07 PM EST (#268419) #
The new logo really improves the looks around here :) Thanks
Mike D - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 01:08 PM EST (#268420) #

PEDs, which should be legal.

Do you say so because you have medically determined that there are not sufficient health risks to make them controlled substances?  Or are you just saying so because high slugging percentages are awesome?

Thomas - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 01:14 PM EST (#268423) #

"Ball Players are basically lazy."

If there is one word I'd use to describe individuals who have devoted themselves (in most cases) to mastering a skill and becoming one of the top 0.001% in the world at their chosen profession, it's definitely lazy.

"To go for food, entertainment or sex might be a reason to travel so, but to get drugs..."

I can definitely see why someone would travel for 4 hours to get a good steak, but wouldn't do it to buy a substance that has the possibility to double his earnings as a professional baseball player, get him to the big leagues, qualify him for a major league pension or something similar.

"... find the address "

If there's one thing that would be unsurmountable to any adult male, it would definitely be finding an address in a different city.

On a different note, Mike makes a good point. I also still believe the narrative, supported by evidence, around when Bonds began to use. With A-Rod, there's no reason to assume that he was PED-free at any point in his career.

John Northey - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 01:18 PM EST (#268425) #
Why would a single dealer be big? Because players talk with each other and if one says a guy is great for getting the best stuff where do you think everyone else will go?  Also, given the nature of the stuff, odds are few places sell the best quality stuff or have the knowledge to help the player maximize the use of it.  Also I suspect many assume that if someone famous (say, A-Rod) is using him then odds are he has a good protection setup to avoid getting caught.
92-93 - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 01:25 PM EST (#268427) #
I'm saying that because I don't believe the government has the right to tell somebody what they can and can't put into their body, and I have no problem if somebody is stupid enough to shave years off his life just to make some more money while entertaining me.
Kasi - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 01:37 PM EST (#268429) #
I agree with 92-93. It sure didn't bother anyone in 96/97 when it was plainly obvious what was going on. Plus the hypocrisy of voters who have voted in Corked Bat Users (Brett), Spit ball pitchers and scores of amphetimine using players from the 70s but for some reason have now decided to draw the line grates me.
hypobole - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 01:57 PM EST (#268432) #
"I have no problem if somebody is stupid enough to shave years off his life just to make some more money while entertaining me."

I can envision you giving a big thumbs down at the Roman Coliseum.
Dave Till - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 01:58 PM EST (#268433) #

I have no problem if somebody is stupid enough to shave years off his life just to make some more money while entertaining me.

However, other ballplayers are forced into a horrible choice: either risk their health by taking PEDs, or lose their jobs to those players who have.

The real problem with PEDs is the health risk - if there was no health risk, taking steroids would be roughly equivalent to taking vitamins.

92-93 - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 02:01 PM EST (#268434) #
That's not fair. My entertainment isn't derived from their actual death, like it was in the gladiator era.
Gerry - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 02:03 PM EST (#268435) #
If anyone has followed the Lance Armstrong affair and cycling in general they would realize PED's are not a simple individual decision.  In cycling you either took the drugs or accepted you couldn't compete.  If PED's are allowed in baseball, most players would believe they had to take them to compete.  If I was a baseball player I would not want to feel forced to take PED's.  That is why I do not believe PED's should be legalized.
92-93 - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 02:06 PM EST (#268436) #
"In cycling you either took the drugs or accepted you couldn't compete."

And we have no idea if in baseball the same can be said.
hypobole - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 02:21 PM EST (#268437) #
"That's not fair. My entertainment isn't derived from their actual death, like it was in the gladiator era."

I don't disagree my response to your callous remark was unfair.

I do know I watched baseball before steroids. I was sufficiently entertained.
Ryan Day - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 03:06 PM EST (#268442) #
I don't believe the government has the right to tell somebody what they can and can't put into their body

What does the government have to do with any of this? It's probably true that many steroid users obtained their drugs illegally, but I'm not aware of any push towards prosecution. People are upset because the ball players cheated.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 03:20 PM EST (#268445) #
Sam Dyson was lost on waivers to Miami.   So i guess we just consider him part of The Trade.   Looks like this Site's Top 30 Prospects list is now the Top 22-23.   Any chance of a quick revison?
Mike Green - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 03:47 PM EST (#268447) #
It isn't the government that is creating the rules regarding drug use.  In this case, it is the industry itself setting rules to ensure that competition does not lead to undue risks to health and safety.  This is not unique to baseball, or sports for that matter. 

You could say that the risks to health and safety are not "undue" compared with the other risks ballplayers face, but that is highly controversial.

Magpie - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 03:47 PM EST (#268448) #
People are upset because the ball players cheated.

I don't disagree. But baseball has, quite literally, always celebrated cheating, and admired those who got away with it. And I don't think the public cares all that much about any long-term effects on the athletes. Football still seems to draw a crowd. There's even a fan-base for boxing, even if it's nothing like what it used to be. Not to mention all these new fighting sports I know nothing about.

I suppose it's possible that what really upsets baseball fans is what modern chemistry has done to the record book. To the numbers.
Beyonder - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 04:10 PM EST (#268450) #
There's definitely a health concern, and there's a collective action that compounds that concern -- but there's also a more amorphous concern about what it means to be an elite athlete and master a skill. We admire baseball players (and pay to see them) not simply because they put on a spectacle, but also because most of us have some level of appreciation for the work that goes into developing that level of skill and athleticism. When skill and athleticism becomes less a product of work, and more a pharmaceutical creation, there is less reason to admire the players, and ultimately less reason to be interested in the spectacle.

Mike Green - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 04:17 PM EST (#268452) #
I don't think that's a fair recounting of the history of baseball and cheating- the Black Sox scandal (including the guilty knowledge doctrine), the banning of spitballs after Ray Chapman.  Cheating has often been overlooked, sometimes not and only occasionally celebrated. 

When the Tigers stole signs from centerfield in the World Series, they didn't go around boasting about it because they knew that the league would come down hard.  It just wasn't proven at the time. 

Ryan Day - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 04:21 PM EST (#268453) #
Oh, there's a lot of hypocritical silliness around steroids. My point was just that it's about breaking baseball rules, not government laws. I don't think anyone cares that Barry Bonds obtained pharmaceuticals without a prescription.
Magpie - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 04:33 PM EST (#268454) #
less reason to be interested in the spectacle

As if a musician were lip-syncing at a "live" performance!

But there's something there. I remember the McGwire-Sosa spectacle of 1998, and being a little disturbed by it. It wasn't that they erased the records of Ruth and Maris. It was that they blew right past them in early September. My understanding of the game and its history has led me to think that you simply can't blow by such a record - not unless something in the game has changed drastically, on some fundamental level. But there was nothing new in the game itself that could account for this. So this was simply not baseball as I knew and understood it. It was something else, some different kind of spectacle, and not the one I was familiar with.
Chuck - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 04:35 PM EST (#268455) #

I suppose it's possible that what really upsets baseball fans is what modern chemistry has done to the record book.

I could not agree with this more.

I don't believe that fans of any sport really truly care about the long-term (and often even short-term) health implications for the athletes, be it as a result of simply participating in a violent sport or because of what the athletes feel they have to do to prepare their bodies for the sport. You care about a player's health only insofar as how it hurts your team now. That's certainly not empathy.

Baseball is driven by numbers. 61 was a controversial number in its day, but with the passing of time ultimately became sacred. The uncomfortably large number of times that 61 has now been exceeded is distasteful to many, cheapening the 61 and the 60 before it. And many feel that the sacred 755 has been cheapened as well.

Had Al Gore invented the internet much earlier, say the 60s, and had the details of the players' drug regimen of the day been known, would there have been a similar outrage, faux or otherwise, over how that group of players was cheapening the numbers that came before them?

Magpie - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 04:40 PM EST (#268456) #
I don't think that's a fair recounting of the history of baseball and cheating

Of course it wasn't. It was one sentence! But this might be a better one. I think the sport has always frowned on teams cheating - one might also mention the 1951 Giants - but has been pretty willing to give individual players a pass, especially if they were clever enough to get away with it.
Mike Green - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 04:44 PM EST (#268457) #
I certainly do care about the long-term health effects, and I really do not care about the record book.  I know that different eras have produced numbers for all kinds of reasons.  Cy Young holds the record (by far) for wins, innings etc despite starting at age 24 not because he was the best pitcher ever or even that he was durable to an otherworldly degree.  He was a very good and durable pitcher who was able to pitch (as many of his contemporaries did) 350-400 innings per season because he could throw with much less effort when he wasn't "in the clinches".  The lively ball era ended that. 



Mike Green - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 04:48 PM EST (#268458) #
Of course it wasn't. It was one sentence! But this might be a better one. I think the sport has always frowned on teams cheating - one might also mention the 1951 Giants - but has been pretty willing to give individual players a pass, especially if they were clever enough to get away with it.

I definitely agree with that.  And it pretty much describes baseball's attitude toward PEDs until (roughly) the Mitchell report.  Anyways, it is pretty clear that it has not been baseball's attitude since and those players who cheat are surely aware that if they get caught (which remains a very iffy proposition), punishment will follow. 
Magpie - Wednesday, January 30 2013 @ 05:16 PM EST (#268459) #
the banning of spitballs after Ray Chapman.

Spitballs, and all the other trick pitches that involved defacing the baseball, were actually banned in two stages, beginning before the 1920 season. It wasn't a response to the Chapman tragedy, which it obviously didn't prevent. It also didn't prevent Carl Mays, who wasn't one of the designated pitchers allowed to throw spitballs and didn't get the ensuing grandfather exemption, from having his best seasons after the pitch was banned. Hey, maybe it really was just a hard sinker.

Anyway I don't think the banning of the spitball was so much about "cheating" as it was about getting more offense into the game. There were certainly people - mostly hitters, oddly enough - who didn't like spitballs, but the pitch had been around forever. What was genuinely new at the time were all the other methods of scuffing up the ball, and the spitball got swept away with the rest of them.

Now once the spitball became illegal - then it was cheating, of course.
AWeb - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 08:24 AM EST (#268468) #

Cy Young holds the record (by far) for wins, innings etc despite starting at age 24 not because he was the best pitcher ever or even that he was durable to an otherworldly degree

Tough crowd...Cy Young pitched 1350 more innings than anyone, including contemporaries who simply didn't last as long. If Young didn't have otherwordly durability, I don't think anyone ever did (which I suppose is literally defensible, but still....). He only lead the league in IP twice, but those were at ages 35 and 36, and it was hard to lead the league when teams were routinely letting guys blow themselves out in a few years with 400+IP seasons.

He also lead the league in BB/9 14 times, WHIP 7 times, and BB/K 11 times. Pitching is almost entirely different from when Young started to when he finished, and to now. But in context of his own era(s), which straddled a relatively high scoring time and the lowest scoring times, he has an argument as the best.

John Northey - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 09:42 AM EST (#268470) #
Trick for Cy Young was being the right person in the right place at the right time.  He started when they still pitched underhand from less than 60'6", then was one of the few to adjust to the overhand/60'6" setup smoothly (ERA+ of 120 or more from 1891 to 1905 with 320+ IP every year).  From 1890 to 1898 he was with the Spiders when they were 500+ from 92 to 98.  Two years in St Louis (team net over 500 during those 2 years), then 8 years in Boston (5 great years, 3 lousy ones), before his final 3 years with a mediocre Cleveland team plus 1/2 a year for a horrid Boston NL team.  Thus generally on winners, stayed healthy by not pushing to crazy inning totals (never over 500, last 400+ was 1896), great control (led in BB/9 14 times).  He was Mr. Steady - giving his teams solid performances year in, year out - always on the leaderboards, top 10 in WAR 17 of his first 18 full seasons.  The perfect pitcher at the right time.  Probably didn't hurt that his early years he wasn't in the majors (not reaching till 23 years old) and thus probably avoided the stress that damages arms early.
92-93 - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 10:02 AM EST (#268471) #
"What does the government have to do with any of this? It's probably true that many steroid users obtained their drugs illegally, but I'm not aware of any push towards prosecution. People are upset because the ball players cheated."

If PEDs weren't illegal, nobody would care about them, just like we don't care if players drive drunk. Smoke marijuana? Suspended.
Mike Green - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 10:03 AM EST (#268472) #
I meant that Cy Young's innings pitched and wins totals are less impressive than Greg Maddux's (say), and I don't particularly care that the characteristics of Maddux' time prevented him from challenging some career pitching records.It is true that fans (as a whole) prefer offence, and that practices which lead to more offence (clean baseballs, PEDs) result in higher attendance, and that the numbers most people remember are offensive ones.  

All the same, while some of the opposition to PED usage is based on a reverence for older times and older offensive records, much of the opposition has a different basis.


Named For Hank - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 10:34 AM EST (#268473) #
Who doesn't care if players drive drunk?! It's irresponsible and dangerous to others. I completely do care. And I definitely care about making the sport safe and playable for those who choose to not shorten their lives and wreck their bodies.

I care about the humans as much as the spectacle.

hypobole - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 10:40 AM EST (#268474) #
"If PEDs weren't illegal, nobody would care about them, just like we don't care if players drive drunk. Smoke marijuana? Suspended."

Players get suspended for PED's that are obtained legally in supplements.

I care about drunk driving, and I'm sure most people do. The fact that baseball doesn't discipline for drunk driving is another matter, although few workplaces do (unless it's in a company car or during company business).

MLB doesn't test for pot in the majors, but you're absolutely right there is a disconnect where minor leaguers can endanger lives driving drunk without mandated discipline, but can't smoke pot.

92-93 - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 10:41 AM EST (#268475) #
"Who doesn't care if players drive drunk?! It's irresponsible and dangerous to others."

Baseball doesn't. Compare the suspensions involved.
92-93 - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 10:43 AM EST (#268477) #
"Players get suspended for PED's that are obtained legally in supplements."

Such as?
Beyonder - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 10:48 AM EST (#268479) #
Such as the crap Stroman took, which I understand you can get from any U.S. GNC.

Also, MLB does test for pot -- they just don't do random spot tests. They can only test once they have reasonable cause.
Chuck - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 10:49 AM EST (#268480) #

"Players get suspended for PED's that are obtained legally in supplements."
Such as?

Poor Manny Ramirez got suspended for taking a woman's fertility drug. He had to choose between his uterus and MLB.

92-93 - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 10:52 AM EST (#268481) #
That wasn't a PED.
Ryan Day - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 11:01 AM EST (#268482) #
Corked bats are legal. So is gambling, more or less. Baseball can punish you for either one.
hypobole - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 11:03 AM EST (#268483) #
"Players get suspended for PED's that are obtained legally in supplements."

I believe Stroman's PED's were in a supplement (or so he claimed)

http://www.cces.ca/en/advisories-42-supplements-proven-to-contain-banned-substances
Mike Green - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 11:08 AM EST (#268484) #
Poor Manny Ramirez got suspended for taking a woman's fertility drug. He had to choose between his uterus and MLB.

There's a better way for men to get pregnant. 
/PSA
hypobole - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 11:13 AM EST (#268485) #
"Who doesn't care if players drive drunk?! It's irresponsible and dangerous to others."

Baseball doesn't. Compare the suspensions involved.

Baseball doesn't care enough, but they do care, at the very least for the blemishes put on their product.

If you were convicted of driving drunk, would your company suspend you? I think not, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't care. There are EAP's in many workplaces, as I'm sure there is in MLB that deal with these matters.
Chuck - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 11:16 AM EST (#268486) #
That wasn't a PED.

Pregnancy Enhancing Drug.
92-93 - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 11:25 AM EST (#268487) #
Let's be careful calling banned stimulants PEDs. It was against NCAA rules for me to consume caffeine in college but I would like to think I wasn't taking a performance enhancing drug every time I had a coffee or a coke.
hypobole - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 11:31 AM EST (#268488) #
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance-enhancing_drugs
Mike Green - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 11:44 AM EST (#268490) #
I was thinking about the aesthetics of PEDs in music and in sports, from a fan's perspective.  When Ben Johnson ran, I cheered him on as a Canadian, but learning that his performance was essentially a creation of PEDs utterly spoiled it for me.  On the other hand, I don't doubt that Jimi Hendrix created some of his best music with the assistance of PEDs (which were certainly detrimental to his health), but it doesn't utterly spoil the music for me.  Perhaps it's because I don't feel that Dylan and Hendrix were at a starting line with guitars with all of us trying to decide whose version of "All Along the Watchtower" was better.  
Magpie - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 12:43 PM EST (#268491) #
the aesthetics of PEDs in music and in sports, from a fan's perspective.

I don't believe there are PEDs for musicians. I promise you, I would have taken them all. I doubt that anything makes you physically play better - makes your fingers faster and more accurate. I've certainly seen players sense of rhythm go all to hell. As well as any sense of pitch....

However. It's interesting that you mention Hendrix, whose drug consumption was certainly impressive. Jimi was rock music's supreme improviser, which is a musical approach normally favoured primarily by jazz musicians. Who are probably even more notorious than rock musicians for playing high. It's certainly arguable that anything that encourages a musician to release their inhibitions, throw caution to the wind, and just go exploring would be an aid to an improviser....
Gerry - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 01:04 PM EST (#268492) #
April Whitzman, from Jays prospects.com, has made it to the final 50 candidates for the MLB Fan Cave.  You can watch her video here and don't forget to vote for her.
Beyonder - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 01:56 PM EST (#268493) #
You can buy any number of andro fuel type supplements over the counter. They are also banned PEDs (not stimulants).

Regardless of the reason it is banned (stimulant or PED), the point was that there are plenty of banned substances that are perfectly legal products.

It's a bit ridiculous to set up a contrast between MLB's treatment of drunk driving with their treatment of PED or stimulant users. MLB is not the morality police. It is not their job to police drunk driving, murder, theft, or any other such behaviour -- it is their job to do what they think they need to do to protect the integrity of the game. MLB is no more soft on drunk driving anymore than they are soft on insider trading. It is not their duty to police either behaviour.
Spifficus - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 02:10 PM EST (#268494) #

It's a bit ridiculous to set up a contrast between MLB's treatment of drunk driving with their treatment of PED or stimulant users. MLB is not the morality police. It is not their job to police drunk driving, murder, theft, or any other such behaviour -- it is their job to do what they think they need to do to protect the integrity of the game. MLB is no more soft on drunk driving anymore than they are soft on insider trading. It is not their duty to police either behaviour.

It's interesting to contrast their behavior towards DUIs and domestic abuse with their policies regarding dip, 'drugs of abuse', and other things that don't impact on-field performance. While it's fair to say that they're not the arbiters of morality, they do take an active role in trying to foster a wholesome public image and it's a bit sad that DUIs and domestic violence fall under the radar.

Beyonder - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 02:50 PM EST (#268495) #
A lot of things fall under the radar. A lot of other things are on the radar, but don't happen frequently enough to justify banning them. Lots of still other things are adequately penalized under current criminal laws.

The fact that MLB doesn't ban a particular behaviour doesn't mean: a) they don't care, or b) they think the behaviour is less serious than behaviour that they do ban. What it likely means is that they don't think the behaviour poses a risk to its business interests.
Mike Green - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 02:55 PM EST (#268496) #
It certainly is questionable whether drugs are in fact enhancing for a musician.  My answer is that it depends, but I don't think that Hendrix is the only rock musician who benefited (artistically) from drug ingestion.  You could probably do an interesting graph for Keith Richards or Steve Winwood with consumption on one axis and output on another. 



perlhack - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 03:04 PM EST (#268497) #
Wikipedia (or science, if you prefer) is an incredible source of information, or sometimes a source of incredible information. To wit, we're familiar with PEDs, but are you familiar with PEP?

That's right: Performance Enhancing Pregnancy. It's rumoured that some female athletes, or their trainers, doctors, etc., are familiar with this, and have engaged in a practice known as abortion doping. They get pregnant to stimulate hormonal changes and increase production of red blood cells, then have an abortion.

Speculation: Maybe that's what Manny was trying to do...
Chuck - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 03:33 PM EST (#268498) #

Speculation: Maybe that's what Manny was trying to do...

Manny just being Mommy.

Dave Till - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 04:15 PM EST (#268499) #
Can I use this opportunity to rant about the Yankees' attempt to void Alex Rodriguez's contract?

Over the years, the Yankees have gained an enormous advantage because they have been able to use the Steinbrenner family's seemingly bottomless wallet to pay squillions of dollars to aging players. Spending a ludicrous amount on A-Rod was just one example.

Now it's time for the Yankees to face the consequences of their actions, and naturally they're trying to avoid same (which is a very human thing to do, I must admit). To which I say: tough noogies, Bronxites. If you order every item on the menu, you have to expect that the bill will be large, and that you will have to pay every dollar of it.

Rant over.
Richard S.S. - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 08:45 PM EST (#268501) #
We have to hope Melky Cabrera doesn't receive a second suspension (100 games) from it.
John Northey - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 09:55 PM EST (#268502) #
If Melky did then we'd see Gose a lot sooner than expected I suspect.  Stronger outfield defense, but a weaker offense.  If someone had to be lost then Melky or Rasmus would be the most replaceable (outside of dead weight Lind).
hypobole - Thursday, January 31 2013 @ 10:39 PM EST (#268503) #
I'd give a 0% chance of Melky being suspended again due to these allegations. It's a reasonable assumption he quit doping (and seemingly paying) when he found out about his suspension - not much reason to dope while you're sitting at home.

Not to say he won't find himself a friendly Toronto physician like Dr. Galea.
Arms Longfellow - Monday, February 04 2013 @ 09:07 AM EST (#268526) #
It's a reasonable assumption he quit doping (and seemingly paying) when he found out about his suspension - not much reason to dope while you're sitting at home.

Not necessarily. He can still go to the gym and pack on muscle mass. I'm not sure how intense MLB's new anti-doping program will be, but the biggest time to dope will be the off season, with the players going off their steroid cycles in time for the season's start.
John Northey - Monday, February 04 2013 @ 09:15 AM EST (#268527) #
Except I'm fairly certain they test in the offseason as well.

Meanwhile in fairy tale land we see Ray Lewis walk into the sunset with articles like this where they praise him to the sky as a future Hall Of Famer and devote two sentences to his PED use, where they call it a 'distraction' and 'sideshow' since he says he didn't do it.  Well, if he says he didn't then why doesn't everyone just trust him?  Kind of like how it was with McGwire in 1998, obvious he was using but no one cared.  Sigh. 
Arms Longfellow - Monday, February 04 2013 @ 09:56 AM EST (#268528) #
A-Rod is just too funny for me to hate. The minotaur thing is obviously hilarious, and there was also the allegations that he goes to Hooters and tips the minimum amount. Then we had him expressing dismay over not having sleep overs with Derek Jeter anymore, and his comically huge bag of ice to treat his little nose bleed (New York Fancy Ladies 4, Toronto Blue Jays 3 is one of my all time favourite articles on this site).
Named For Hank - Monday, February 04 2013 @ 10:28 AM EST (#268529) #
Thanks, Arms. It terrifies me to think I wrote that article eight years ago; I suppose that brings some perspective to A-Rod's career being potentially over. It doesn't feel like that much time has passed.

I wish I had a picture of the big bag of ice.

robertdudek - Tuesday, February 05 2013 @ 01:20 AM EST (#268536) #
Regarding PEDs and artistic achievement ...

I had a roommate who was convinced that smoking a copious amount of tobacco made him a much better writer. I think that many artists will tell you that one substance or another aids in their creative process. One should probably conclude that this is true, but since such realms are almost entirely rooted in subjectivity, one will never be able to prove or disprove such views.

Sports, being a physical activity, is different.

A long time ago, in my undergrad years, I remember a conversation I has with my mentor about the steroid/ PED issue (this was around the time of the Ben Johnson phenomenon). He asked me whether I thought that weight lifting should be banned in sports - I said no. He answered it was an artificial way of improving performance, just like taking drugs and supplements. I concurred.

So the crucial difference must revolve around two issues:

(1) How safe are the artificial means for improving performance

(2) What entities have the right to make rules of conduct for a given sport

Regarding issue one, artificial enhancements exist on a scale from relatively benign to dangerous. I believe that there is evidence that many drugs, when taken cautiously and under medical supervision, are relative harmless. Many of them can be abused, but almost everything can be. There is a level of weight lifting that is dangerous.

One may retort that, even if dangerous, the risks are taken solely by the individual involved. But in the context of sporting competition, anything you do affects your competitor, so I would thus dismiss the Individualist-based arguments.

Regarding issue two, the case against PEDs is far more convincing. If the sport decides that certain techniques and/or substances are not allowed, then those who disagree must lobby within that structure to change such views.

In my opinion, anything that is done is secret and/or conspiratorially is presumed to be wrong, unless a strong counterargument can be mounted. Consider the following: you are married - but you have developed a friendship with another woman. What is the line between fidelity and infidelity? The test is whether you keep your actions hidden from your wife.



Dave Till - Tuesday, February 05 2013 @ 02:05 PM EST (#268538) #
I think that many artists will tell you that one substance or another aids in their creative process. One should probably conclude that this is true, but since such realms are almost entirely rooted in subjectivity, one will never be able to prove or disprove such views.

In my (somewhat limited) experience, the creative process consists of two phases - the creation phase, and the editing/refining phase. During the creation phase, some artists have found it useful to employ "one substance or another" to reach into their creative unconscious.

I seem to recall that Lewis Hyde's The Gift discusses this issue in some detail.

Named For Hank - Thursday, February 07 2013 @ 08:32 AM EST (#268586) #
I'll be honest, guys: before I write anything I drink six cups of coffee. Then I snort a small amount of ground unicorn horn. The Writer's Guild has banned unicorn horn, but it's okay because I'm not a member.
Mike Green - Thursday, February 07 2013 @ 08:49 AM EST (#268587) #
Do you double down on the unicorn horn before one of your otherworldly great pictures, NFH?  I always wondered why there were lineups of photographers outside health food psychic shops.



Named For Hank - Thursday, February 07 2013 @ 10:21 AM EST (#268588) #
No, Mike, I just eat a lot of carrots.
vw_fan17 - Thursday, February 07 2013 @ 06:46 PM EST (#268612) #
I don't believe that fans of any sport really truly care about the long-term (and often even short-term) health implications for the athletes, be it as a result of simply participating in a violent sport or because of what the athletes feel they have to do to prepare their bodies for the sport. You care about a player's health only insofar as how it hurts your team now. That's certainly not empathy.

(must have missed this comment first time around, or was too busy to respond at the time.. )

Actually, I do. Not baseball as much, since baseball players aren't dying early in great numbers. NFL is the sport I'm talking about in this case - and no, I didn't start this season.

My in-laws are big fans of Bay-Area teams (both parents - and my wife is not, go figure :-), so yes, I will sit down with them and watch the odd 49ers game (and maybe a Raiders game since I used to be a fan when I was young and lived in Ontario). But, about 3-4 years ago, I stopped playing fantasy football, precisely because someone else pointed out that they are basically beating each other to an early death (most linesmen, anyway), for money. After a little research and items on the news, I found I agreed with the evidence, and stopped. Not being involved in FF led to me watching maybe 1/10th or less of the football I used to watch/try to watch. If it's on in a restaurant we like to frequent Sundays, I won't complain, and maybe will grab a peek. But, unless it's a playoff game with the 49ers involved like the last couple of years, I won't turn on the TV to watch. I'll agree that, watching any NFL at all is somewhat hypocritical, but, watching way less and not going out of my way to watch is, to me, taking some action.

Similarly, as much as I am a Leafs die-hard (more than a Jays die-hard), I have become extremely concerned about the concussion rate in NHL games lately. Whether it's due to increased reporting, and in the old days, players were expected to take it in stride and keep playing, or it's truly happening more, I am currently more aware of it than in my youth (early 80s). As a result, I am keeping a close watch on the NHL's reaction to it, and whether they are having any effect. I feel that I should be a responsible fan, and NOT cheer on someone hurting another human being for profit.

Of course, I do get caught up in the emotions, and at times wish for the Jays pitcher to throw at a batter, or a Leaf to land a haymaker on the opposing goalie in retribution. Thankfully I have 0 control over their actions, and they never do what I temporarily think the other team deserves.

Several times now, I have speculated that in the near future, I may follow only one sport - baseball - since NHL and NFL are too close to endangering the lives of people for money for my liking, and I just can't get into the NBA at all. Not counting irregular sporting events like Olympics, World Cup, etc..
Chuck - Thursday, February 07 2013 @ 10:23 PM EST (#268616) #

After a little research and items on the news, I found I agreed with the evidence, and stopped.

Malcolm Gladwell has taken the same stance towards the NFL and has been especially vocal about his position that college football should be banned. There are certainly going to be some people who take sincere positions against pro athletes risking their health for our amusement, but those tiny voices will be drowned out by teeming hordes who don't care, or at least whose behaviours suggest they don't care. And that's acknowleding that even electing to unglue one's eyes from the TV would be a legitimate tangible objection.

We have evolved from the days of Roman gladiators, but not nearly as much as we like to fool ourselves. Witness the incredible popularity of MMA.

Mike Green - Friday, February 08 2013 @ 09:53 AM EST (#268617) #
but those tiny voices will be drowned out by teeming hordes who don't care, or at least whose behaviours suggest they don't care

The powers that be, whether it is Stephen Harper or Bud Selig, act as if the numbers aren't quite as lopsided as suggested.  They obfuscate, make concessions, hide ugly truths...The Hall of Fame voters act as if the numbers aren't quite as suggested either.  It is a mistake, in my view, to attribute these actions as a reflection of hypocrisy of a great majority of the public. 
Chuck - Friday, February 08 2013 @ 11:00 AM EST (#268618) #

They obfuscate, make concessions, hide ugly truths...

Of this I have no doubt. George Orwell would well recognize the times we live in.

As far as the NFL goes, there will be evidence of pushback from the fans once TV viewership numbers drop and stadium attendance declines. That said, Super Bowl viewership did decline this year from last (in the US, 111 million 108) but the reasons, of course, cannot be easily teased out. Perhaps pushback really was part of it. Perhaps the absence of either Manning or Tom Brady played a role.

It is a mistake, in my view, to attribute these actions as a reflection of hypocrisy of a great majority of the public. 

I, personally, would be reluctant to brandish anyone a hypocrite in this situation. One can have genuine concern for the players and yet still watch the games, the same we can buy goods made in China and deplore their working conditions. These issues are complicated and people can behave in seemingly contradictory ways yet remain genuinely empathetic. Or maybe I'm just rationalizing. Maybe I don't want to feel as though I share any burden of the guilt.

I wonder, though, what will cause reformation in the NFL and NHL? Junior Seau was a much beloved superstar, not an anonymous defensive lineman. I don't know that his celebrity has resulted in the appropriate shock waves. I do condede that I don't follow the NFL too terribly closely so maybe I'm mistaken on this matter.

Mike Green - Friday, February 08 2013 @ 01:57 PM EST (#268627) #
I, personally, would be reluctant to brandish anyone a hypocrite in this situation. One can have genuine concern for the players and yet still watch the games, the same we can buy goods made in China and deplore their working conditions. These issues are complicated and people can behave in seemingly contradictory ways yet remain genuinely empathetic. Or maybe I'm just rationalizing. Maybe I don't want to feel as though I share any burden of the guilt.

This is exactly right, I think.  I don't have any problem with embracing the somewhat contradictory ways that many people react to people behaving badly in a game they love.  There is a spectrum of feeling and action about this kind of thing, and the two are not always in complete harmony. 
vw_fan17 - Friday, February 08 2013 @ 03:31 PM EST (#268631) #
Malcolm Gladwell has taken the same stance towards the NFL and has been especially vocal about his position that college football should be banned.

I would never advise anyone to play football, strongly discourage them if they asked me, and never permit any of my children to play (tackle) football. Flag/touch are a totally different thing, of course..

We have evolved from the days of Roman gladiators, but not nearly as much as we like to fool ourselves. Witness the incredible popularity of MMA.

While I once enjoyed the odd boxing match, I am no longer interested. Similarly to boxers, I can admire the physical training/abilities of MMA fighters, but have never been interested, other than a few minutes here or there to get an idea of what it is all about. In the case of MMA, to me, it's too close to street fighting (i.e. reality).

Dewey - Friday, February 08 2013 @ 05:34 PM EST (#268635) #
This is exactly right, I think.

I concur . . . except that:

Definition of brandish, verb:  wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement: a man leaped out brandishing a knife.

And remember, guys, past tense of verb "to lead" is "led.  (Gimme a break:  I haven't nagged you about this stuff for a while.)


robertdudek - Wednesday, February 13 2013 @ 08:23 AM EST (#268686) #
While I respect any person's right to decide they don't want to watch violent games, I must point out that as long as the participants engage in the activity knowing the risks involved I have no personal objection to them doing it. Certainly I would not be in favour of banning college football - all the participants are of age and are therefore presumably responsible enough to make their own decisions.

Players in violent sports can not help but be aware of the risks, but it would be foolish to think there are no rewards associated with it. Each individual ought to weigh these risks and rewards for themselves. I despise the growing attitude in modern times to shield young people from all possible dangers - I think it will lead to grave consequences for out society if it already hasn't.

Since the concussion evidence has come to light, the NFL have taken steps to reduce blows to the head. Defenders are still hitting receivers in the head far too frequently, but the next generation of players will have grown up with the new rules and the situation should improve.

As an aside, I would bet that soccer is even more dangerous as far as head injuries are concerned than the NHL or NFL because of the repeated striking of the ball with one's head, or knocking heads with an opponent.

vw_fan17 - Wednesday, February 13 2013 @ 03:43 PM EST (#268703) #
Players in violent sports can not help but be aware of the risks, but it would be foolish to think there are no rewards associated with it. Each individual ought to weigh these risks and rewards for themselves. I despise the growing attitude in modern times to shield young people from all possible dangers - I think it will lead to grave consequences for out society if it already hasn't.

I can certainly appreciate that opinion, and I mostly agree with it. I think the part I (and many others) would disagree with is that an 18-year old can PROPERLY weigh the consequences of "Here's a full scholarship (or signing bonus) - will you play for us?". Many boys have a feeling of invincibility around that age - especially the "star athletes" who dominated their high school - and figure it won't happen to them, just like everyone thinks they're an above average driver, or that they won't die in a car accident, or get cancer, or whatever. Statistics are what statistics are - I'm pretty sure that every day somewhere, an 18-year old dies in a car accident or is diagnosed with cancer. To me, getting brain damage from playing football is similar to getting cancer from smoking - about 99% preventable. However, it's not immediately obvious that damage is being done, and once you've started, it's hard to quit. Oh, and smoking's addictive too :-)  Not sure how young football players are signed and/or drafted - never followed that part of NFL really at all.. Do they have the equivalent of teenage signings, like international baseball players? Do you believe at 16 or 18, you had the same judgement as today, and you would make the same decisions? I believe we've all made decisions at a younger age that, in hindsight, we would not make right now, but at the time, they seemed to make a lot of sense. 

This doesn't address the "use PEDs to win" issue - but that's a personal one. I.e. if you want to be a bit better, you might try to cheat that way. However, IMHO, with football, the whole system of the sport exposes certain players to one dangerous situation after another, 20-30 times a game or more. I doubt soccer players head the ball 25-30 times per game per player, but that's just a wild guess..

The other side of the coin to freedom (especially freedom to do whatever you want to do, knowing there are risks involved) is this: what should society's response be, if you choose in a way that is agreed to be dangerous/ill-advised? For instance - athletes who get dementia due to head trauma now that it's a known issue or lifelong heavy smokers who get lung cancer, etc - why should we support you with free healthcare FOR THOSE PROBLEMS when you made choices that directly led to those problems? When those required healthcare costs are significantly higher than they needed to be because of your choices? When the health system is already bursting at the seams due to not enough funding? Ideally (in a world with infinite resources for all needs), this would not be a concern. However, in the real world - should we be sending out helicopters/rescue boats because someone wanted to sail around the world by themselves and got in trouble because they're clueless?? Just because we can, expenses be damned? Where do we draw the line?
robertdudek - Thursday, February 14 2013 @ 08:39 AM EST (#268724) #
In most of the developed world, we've decided that access to medical care is on a needs basis, not a merit basis. We do not ask if you have been engaged in dangerous activity, if you are a hypochondriac, if you have a poor diet or are too lazy to do enough exercise.

I think I prefer it that way than to try to precisely measure up what part of your illness/condition is your own fault. I know that contemplation of that question quickly leads you down the rabbit hole (i.e. yes I smoke and have a poor diet, but my parents and genes conditioned me that way - so its not my fault// yes I like to take risks - there is something in my genetic code that impels me to do it).

Something the pro sports leagues can do is create a special fund to treat the ailments of retired players, in case they need extraordinary medical attention as they age.

John Northey - Thursday, February 14 2013 @ 08:55 AM EST (#268725) #
MLB's players union was formed largely to ensure a pension and now has the payout at the maximum ($175k a year iirc) legally allowed for guys with 10+ years experience (read somewhere that there is a limit in the US on pension payouts).  They have retro-set it so even players from pre-union days benefit unlike the NFL where old players are ignored.  I think they have benefits as well including medical which would be a big boost especially for guys who were never more than hangers on over their career (ie: never made $1 mil in a single season).  Hopefully they will work on upping it for those with 1 days ML experience as those guys need it the most I'd suspect.

So as to the 'special fund' - giving medical as a benefit post-retirement would be the best way.  I'd suspect the MLB players union would fight for that if they haven't already got it.

vw_fan17 - Thursday, February 14 2013 @ 02:51 PM EST (#268743) #
...I know that contemplation of that question quickly leads you down the rabbit hole...

I totally agree - it's not in any way a simple question/issue. And I agree that medical care should be on a needs basis (eg. I could stand to lose a few pounds :-). Just wanted to point out that "freedom" can only go so far, and that if you want to be part of society and its benefits, you have to (more or less) play by society's rules. If society decides (and it's not easy to say how that happens) that playing football (which is something that's pretty cut and dried a choice - you can't really argue that your genes forced you to play football) is akin to willful self-injury, then it may also decide that football players took an unsanctioned risk and thus are not deserving of society's benefits.

I also agree that the NFL, for example, should create a medical fund. It's not like their profits are hurting. That's probably one of the better solutions. Then again, in the US, it's a totally different system, so it may not matter as much..
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