Tuesday Update: Bautista to the 15-day DL with apparently no structural damage; he's optimistic he comes back in 15. Gose up.
Welcome to Toronto, kiddo.
Farrell will probably stick him in the bullpen as the 9th reliever.
This wins the thread.
Fixed!
Also, re: Gose, he improves the outfield defense, but he is still obviously very raw at the plate, and I am not sure that this would be my choice of action (which is why they don't pay me the big bucks). I would have liked to see Gose with a chance to get more AAA at bats, with someone like Snider or Thames coming up instead. C'est la vie, I suppose.
And he also told Wilner less than a week ago that Gose would spend not only all of 2012 put probably a lot of 2013 in AAA, so if we take him at his word in both cases you still have to wonder why, in light of changing circumstances, you choose Gose?
I've heard the comparisons about their relative stats, but I'm not sure I buy it. That calculation saddles Snider with a handful of games at the begining of May as the decision maker.
His stats since coming off the DL are better than Gose's stats since April.
If the decision is "who's hot" - Snider's July is slightly better than Gose's
His June is much better than Gose's
And AA is on record saying Snider was rushed, so applying that lesson ought give you pause about promoting the 21 year old instead of the 24 year old.
There has to be something in play that doesn't show on the stat sheet.
Never mind the fact that Gose is supposed to get the call, and he obviously still has much to learn. This is a guy whose stats are worse than Snider across the board, yet is deemed hot enough to be parachuted into the majors. Apparently that rule applies only to Snider?
Gose's call-up may be aborted if the Team make the unwise decision not to DL Bautista. He is likely to handle it better than Snider. Hose is an exciting hot prospect; Snider is "been there, done that".
But nobody knows anything.
Gose should be OK against RHP but he'll make even Adam Lind look good, in comparison, against LHP.
I've lost count as to how many times I've just shook my head at the computer as a result of this year's roster manipulations.
It's all speculation until a move is made. Perhaps Gose was removed because he's just been traded and he's on his way to Arizona for a physical. But count me as someone who thinks Snider, not Gose, should get the call if that was in fact the reason for Gose's removal from the game.
As for "tendon issues", as someone who has suffered three broken bones, a sprained tendon and who is currently in month 3 of recovery from a severed tendon surgery, I'd take three broken bones over a major tendon issue any day! The recovery time, in my experience, is much longer and the lingering soreness, stiffness and weakness is much worse after a tendon injury. If Bautista tore a tendon surgery expect 1.5 months of immobalization, 3 months before he can lift heavy weights or swing a bat, and another month or two after that before he's back to full strength.
Snider has no options left I thought. If they bring him up and he faulters, what do they do then? Trade him for a bucket of balls?
In AAA, his shine will be there and his trade value will be up.
I am not sure I agree with Gose though. I thought it would be Gomes or Sierra. With Gose, Davis and rasmus, there are not going to be many flyballs hitting the turf.
Be careful. This might provoke a laugh among one or two Bauxites or it might be the thing that causes a cardiovascular accident.
The spell-checker is your friend.
You mean the two batters Sam Dyson has pitched to since July 4 haven't rendered him an integral member member of the bullpen yet?
To be fair, I guess the 8th member of the bullpen is being carried around for games like tonight's, where Cecil is facing the Yankees and could be out of the game by the 2nd or 3rd inning. That doesn't justify it in my mind, particualrly given how well Villanueva and Laffey have been pitching.
We don't know, and possibly never will know, if there is some other psychological aspect to Gose's promotion.
Could the Jays be rewarding him for something he has done or for the progress he has made? By all accounts he has worked hard to alter his swing after the Jays acquired him.
Could it be a way of the Jays showing Gose what else he needs to learn to do in AAA in order to succeed in the big leagues?
Could it be that Gose is now cruising, thinking he is major league ready, and the team want's to show him he isn't?
Could it be that the front office is worried that the team might let down over Bautista's injury and Gose might inject some energy, as Lawrie did when he was first called up?
Could it be that the Jays needed to look at Gose anyway before the off-season to see what they can count on, if anything, for 2013? The extra two weeks or so wight not be a big difference from that.
And of course there are the showcase arguments.
I wonder if they will hold him back from facing CC in his first game.
Per Davidi - Bautista on the DL, Morrow moved to 60 day, Gose up.
Oh, in-deed! Especially seeing as how there's a decent chance that said player will struggle mightily upon being called up.
[Anthopoulos] mentioning at every opportunity that his predecessor rushed Snider to the big leagues.
I've certainly noticed Anthopoulos speaking about the up-down, stop-start pattern of Snider's career, but did he actually talk specifically about him being rushed? (It's possible that having beaten that drum incessantly and ad neauseum my own self since the Ricciardi days, any similar musings by anyone else simply haven't quite penetrated my Mental Fog.)
Bautista's condition is described as "inflammation," which is interesting. To me anyway. Inflammation isn't an injury. It's the body's response to an injury. Bautista said he heard or felt a pop - one wonders if the wrist tendon was strained or stretched over one of the little bones in the wrist. Maybe not on the swing, but on the recoil after the swing - his bat, by now held only in his left hand, having come right around to the point where it's almost touching the ground behind him, is whipped back up by his left wrist. Which rebelled. Then the tendon instantly slides back into proper alignment, leaving nothing behind but... inflammation! Pain and discomfort.
Like I have even a clue...
Anyway, if the injury truly is short-term - and it does look that way for the moment - I can see the point of leaving Thames and Snider where they are. They're working on stuff. Meanwhile Gose gets to travel on some charter planes, stay in some nice hotels, and look at some major league breaking balls. A little bit of "what you need to do, and why you want to do it."
True, it would be boring (although I could do without the "see how wrong you were" jabs followed by the inevitable multiple half page replies). However, too often it seems people don't question moves as much as claim the moves are flat out wrong. I may be in the minority, but I find that inflated and tiresome.
Meanwhile Gose gets to travel on some charter planes, stay in some nice hotels, and look at some major league breaking balls.
And the women have long legs and brains.
Calling up a guy like Snider or Thames, though, is a different story. They're getting to the point where their next call up might just be their last chance to stick.....them failing in their next callup might be disastrous, so you better make sure they're swinging the bat well and feeling good at the plate when you do call them up.
- Are they showcasing him to let other ML teams know the kid is ready?
- Are they showing Gose what being a ML'er is about? Sometimes a kid when he first comes up is overwhelmed and if this year is a write off then it is best to get the 'oh my god I'm in the bigs' over with
- They feel Gose is ready and it is time
Teams that have no or little chance of winning their division outright seem to be very hesitant of giving up assets in trades since even if they do grab a wild card spot, it may not even bring them one home game.
The other point is the draft pool money teams have to spend may be more important than the picks themselves. Haven't completely wrapped my head around that, but this year, with no concensus #1, Astro's seemed to go for the cheapest option of similar talents, leaving themselves with a sizable amount of cash to throw at hard to sign talents.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/07/olney-on-marlins-rays-upton.html
In his last 8 starts vs #bluejays, Sabathia is 7-0 with 2.73 ERA. The current Jays roster is hitting a collective .174 wth 0 hrs vs CC
Call me crazy, but doesn't it sounds like Guaranteed Win Night? The Law of Large Numbers, the Gods of Regression-to-the-Mean, will be with us!
Well done, gentlemen. A nice, unintentional recursive discussion. My (hypothetical) money is on Cecil +195.
I figure Gose will hit 9th and Davis 8th or 1st to keep the speed concentrated.
Call me crazy, but doesn't it sounds like Guaranteed Win Night? The Law of Large Numbers, the Gods of Regression-to-the-Mean, will be with us!
Sure, they're due. Isn't that the exact formula for going broke as a gambler?
Keeping Gose away from Sabathia is probably a good idea; I'd say Lind would be a slightly better option.
Jayson Nix starts at third for the Yankees tonight and bats eighth. That should be fun.
I don't mind Davis leading off against a LHP, but I wouldn't want to see Mathis or Arencibia anywhere near the heart of the order. Lawrie would be my choice for the 3 slot against LHP right now.
Top of the 7th. Yankees lead 7-4. All 9 Jays starters remain in the game. Yankees have burned Sabathia and reliever D.J. Mitchell. Boone Logan pitching. Bases loaded. Two out. Kelly Johnson rips a two-run ground-rule double to cut the Yankees' lead to 7-6. Runners on second and third, two out, Mathis up, Davis on deck.
Girardi calls for righty sidewinder Cody Eppley. You have to pinch-hit Gose if he's present, right? And if so, do you leave him in?
I would've just started Gose, to be honest, and one reason would be to dodge these scenarios.
Called it, Obal.
Farrell on Gose over Snider: "it was the clear recommendation of the staff there + the people that have gone through LV for Anthony be here"
Ouch. What does THAT mean?
It may well be that Gose has passed Snider and Thames on the OF depth chart. Who knows - by this time next year, Marisnick may have passed them too. But I hope Snider and Thames go on to have productive major-league careers somewhere, if not in Toronto.
I was able to accept that, but I started to question the consistentcy of the philosophy when Hutchison, who clearly wasn't ready for the major leagues, got rushed up to fill a hole in the rotation. Now, someone is going to look at his results and say "what do you mean he wasn't ready?". That's silly. Hutchison had made 6 starts above A ball for a grand total of 30 innings. The two go-to prospect guys, Law & Goldstein, both thought the call-up was premature, as Hutchison was essentially still a 2 pitch pitcher relying on command to get hitters out, a formula that requires tremendous precision at the major league level. Young players often have success in their first go round around the league until teams have sufficient video to begin exploiting his weaknesses. I'll go as far as to say that Hutchison's spike in velocity may have been a result of him trying too hard to get MLB hitters out because he was unprepared, and his injury could very well be a result of the higher stress being put on his baby arm. Of course this wasn't the first time AA had fast-tracked an arm to the majors when the team had little hope of contention - he did the same thing last year with Henderson Alvarez, who had no breaking ball to speak of when he came up the majors and was relying heavily on the sink of his fastball and the change of speeds on the changeup to get hitters out.
So let's get back to Gose. AA's offseason (and inseason) activity certainly didn't suggest that he was trying to contend in 2012. If he wasn't fully ready for the major leagues at the beginning of the year, it made sense to have him down in AAA learning how to control the strike zone better. In fact, AA was dropping hints to the writers that Gose may spend parts of 2013 in Vegas as well. Here's Wilner from a few days ago - "I said there was an almost zero chance of Gose coming up because 4 days ago, AA insinuated Gose would be in LV all year and maybe next."
Therefore, when I see Gose being called up to replace Bautista, I'm left scratching my head. With a decimated rotation and possibly the best hitter in the AL out for awhile it seems near impossible for the Jays to be contenders this year. Why bring him up? If it's because he was ready all along and was just waiting for an open spot, why was AA dropping hints that he needs more time? And why wasn't he called up when Rajai Davis has been giving the team next to nothing vs. RHP for over a month now? How does this look like anything but a reactionary move to the Bautista injury as opposed to what's best for Anthony Gose? If you're going to tell me that rushing prospects like Alvarez, Hutchison, and Gose helps the team compete in 2013 and beyond by getting their feet wet and that it's worth the trade off of starting their service time clock early (and potentially burning options), it shouldn't have taken a Bautista injury to get this party started.
I look forward to watching Gose the rest of the season, and will be rooting for nothing but the best from him. I still don't like this move, and it seems obvious to me that it's being made because Bautista got injured, and not because it's the best thing for Gose's development. Furthermore, if Gose isn't being used in CF, it makes even less sense. Prospect hounds seem to agree that Hechavarria has very little bat at this time, but he, as well as Gomes, Snider, Thames, Cooper, and Sierra, are all hitting better than Gose at Vegas. And don't get me wrong, I think it would be even worse to be moving the mentally-fragile Rasmus off CF short-term for a prospect, so I'm left wondering what the heck the impetus was for calling Gose up to play RF when the team could easily have gone with any of the other options.
As for this idea that the front office always has its motives and way more knowledge on hand, come on. We all know that's true. AA isn't making decisions to spite the fans. He's doing whatever he and his management team think is best for the organization. That doesn't mean we can't criticize, and the people reading absolutes from those who criticize really aren't paying close attention to what's being said. It's hard to qualify most of my statements with more "I think", "it appears to me", and "in my opinions"s, and people just read what they want to read at this point. Rany Jazayerli of Baseball Prospectus got into a conversation with Kevin Goldstein tonight on Twitter that I thought highlighted this concept pretty well, as it pertained to the Royals and their handling of Jonathan Sanchez. I suggest checking out his feed @jazayerli, and will leave you with one quote:
"I didn't say they're stupid. I'm saying that all that additional knowledge doesn't prevent teams from making bad decisions."
"“It’s not a slight on anyone,” Farrell said. “They were asked [for a] recommendation. They said, ‘This is the guy that’s most ready right now.’ That’s not to say that Snider’s not doing something, or [Eric] Thames is not doing something. That was the recommendation.”"
So now unless we're to assume that Farrell isn't being truthful, you can throw out all the ulterior motives for Gose's call-up and make it pretty simple - the team thought Gose was the best way to improve the MLB club.
I wondered about this too. After a series of starts in which he was sitting around 89-91, he started regularly hitting 93-95. It seemed odd to me.
So now unless we're to assume that Farrell isn't being truthful
Why would we ever except GMs and managers to be entirely truthful? When they answer questions for the public, rather than internally within the organization, we should expect spin. To not expect it is to be naive. That doesn't mean they are always lying but that they could be lying.
What if the real reasons for Gose's promotion are:
"Thames' defense is so poor that we don't think he'll ever be a useful major leaguer for us and because of that we're currently looking to trade him".
"Snider had been hitting well before his injury but we want to see him start hitting again because the next time we bring him up will be the last time, and we want to be sure. We're thinking of that time being the start of the 2013 season".
"Gose has played well but could stand a little bit of a reality check. We'll expose to him major league pitchers and he'll probably struggle, and that should motivate him to continue working on areas that need improvement".
Well, they'd have no option but to keep Snider in the majors at that time, as he'd have no, um, options left. I don't think that they want to be forced into making a decision on whether to keep Snider or ditch him without seeing him in the majors at all before then.
"Freakin' Rogers won't pay for Rasmus now that he has got his mojo back, so I am going to have deal him now while his value is at its highest. I can't wait to get out of here."
My grandmother used to say that honesty was the best policy, but wasn't above shovelling food onto her children's plates behind their backs in order to put meat on their bones.
Well, they'd have no option but to keep Snider in the majors at that time, as he'd have no, um, options left..
Thanks, um, I know.
They could call him up and send him down - but they have stated they would not like to do so.
"Snider had been hitting well before his injury but we want to see him start hitting again because the next time we bring him up will be the last time, and we want to be sure. We're thinking of that time being the start of the 2013 season".
Comparing the eligible teams vs the 10 teams with the lowest MLB payrolls, only 2 low spending teams aren't in the lottery - the rebuilding Houston Astros and, you guessed it, the Toronto Blue Jays.
This promotion also creates questions about the decision making of AA. IMO AA's choices were Snider, Thames, Sierra & Gose as OF call ups in the whole minor league system.
My opinion. None of them were smashing down the door from what I could see. I think 450ABs is enough to be considered a full season. Snider 203AB & Thames 149AB at AAA is too little especially with the injuries to Snider, so 200 more ABs at AAA is OK with me. Sierra 332AB & Gose 377AB at AAA was enough for me to consider them but eliminate Snider & Thames until Sept.
I think it is very hard to say a GM made a mistake ie he was wrong. For example Seattle chose J Clement with the 3rd pick in 2005, was that wrong. IMO since they had multiple good choices to consider, the only error I can see is saying that they discount the lesser tools in favor of the position of catcher when comparing the other choices. I like to have 2 examples but cannot think of another "I cannot say this is definitely wrong" example.
However with 46 days left before Sept 1st, I will definitely think AA made a mistake if he burns one of Gose's options. send him back for 19 days max, and save the option that may be needed in the near future.
Also 2 things that really bugs me to this day is how Brad Mills gets to go up and down for LAA when he seemed to burn an option in 2009 (2 games Vs Phillies), 2010 & 2011. And the 2nd thing is that nobody knows the answer to this.
True dat. Maybe we could hear from the 23 GMs - that would be twenty-three - who chose some other guy instead of Mike Trout back in June 2009. (I guess we can cut Mike Rizzo some slack. But no one else!)
Well, in all fairness... nobody knows anything.
We give too much credit to GM's on some issues and too much blame on others.
I would guess a number of GM's in the league don't even make their 1st round picks. No GM makes 12 rounds worth; that's why they have scouting directors.
By my count, 6 position players and 10 pitchers have played for both the Jays and 51's this year, and I can't recall even 1 being a rehab assignment. Then there's also the direct pitcher pipeline from NH to TO.