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Here we journey via the Way Back Machine into the exploits of Blue Jays in All Star Games past...


The Blue Jays, once upon a time, were a hopeless case, sending players to the game because everyone gets to send a player. You know, just like Tampa Bay is today. That all changed after a while.

1977 - The first Blue Jay all-star was Ron Fairly (.302, .396, .502, 13 HR, 45 RBI at the Break). He was in the 20th season of a fine career spent mostly with the Dodgers and Expos. Fairly came up to pinch hit in a key situation: the bases were loaded with two out, and the AL was trailing 5-3. Tom Seaver struck him out.

1978 - George Brett and Graig Nettles ranked ahead of Roy Howell (.293, .346, .396) on the AL depth chart: Howell was a decent LH line drive hitter, who was not exactly the slickest defender who ever played the hot corner. He came up to pinch-hit against Steve Rogers in the fourth inning. The score was tied at 3-3, there were two out and runners on the corners. He grounded out to first.

1979 - The Jays had a player in uniform, but Dave Lemanczyk (7-7, 3.33) didn't get into the game. Like Fairly and Howell before him, he did very little the rest of the season.

1980 - A 23 year old pitcher in his first full major league season made the first of his seven All-Star teams. Dave Stieb (7-6, 3.10) came into the game with the AL trailing 3-2 in the 7th inning. He may have been a little nervous: Ken Griffey led off with a single. Stieb got Dave Concepcion to hit into a force out. However, Concepcion moved to second on a Stieb wild pitch. Gary Carter grounded out, but Stieb walked Ray Knight as Concepcion took third on a passed ball. Knight stole second, and Stieb delivered his second wild pitch of the inning, allowing Concepcion to score. Phil Garner walked and stole second, before Stieb got George Hendrick on a flyout to end an eventful inning. Like all previous Blue Jays all-stars, Stieb had a rough second half.

1981 - The players went on strike in June 1981, and the All-Star Game was played immediately after they returned to work. The Blue Jays were a pitiful 16-42 in the first half, but someone had to represent them and Dave Stieb (4-7, 3.30) got the call. The AL took a 4-3 lead into the eighth inning, but Rollie Fingers gave up a a couple of walks, a two-run homer to Mike Schmidt, a single, and committed an error. Stieb came in with two out and a runner on second. He retired Andre Dawson and Bruce Bendict to end the inning. Stieb worked a scoreless ninth, and then found himself forced to bat against Bruce Sutter in the bottom of the inning because Jim Frey had run out of position players. He struck out, of course. After the Game, Stieb put together a very fine second half, and the hapless Blue Jays actually contended for the second-half championship.

1982 - Stieb was, without a doubt, the best pitcher in the American League in 1982, but he was 7-10 3.96 at the All-Star Break and didn't get an invite. Diamond Jim Clancy (7-7, 3.56) got the call instead. Clancy entered the game in the fourth inning, with the AL already down 3-1, and worked a tidy three-up and three-down inning.

1983 - Harvey Kuenn tapped Dave Stieb (10-7, 2.54) as his starter, making him the first Blue Jay ever to start in an All-Star Game. Stieb had lost his three previous starts, and this one got off to a rocky beginning. Stieb's own error put leadoff man Steve Sax on first; he came around to score on Rod Carew's error. Stieb issued a walk to Al Oliver, but got out of the inning by striking out Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy, and Mike Schmidt to end the inning. He cruised for another two innings, retiring all six batters he faced, and was the winning pitcher as the AL scored 9 in the first three innings and broke off the NL's 11 game winning streak.

1984 - Dave Stieb (9-3, 2.42) made his second straight All-Star Game start. For the first time, there were team mates on hand. Damaso Garcia (.303, .329, .394) was named to the team as a reserve by manager Joe Altobelli, and when Alan Trammell came up lame, Garcia's game guest, Alfredo Griffin (.241, .250, .317) got to suit up as well. Yes, a man with an OPS of .567 played in an All-Star Game. Stieb gave up an unearned run in the first - Steve Garvey singled and took second on Reggie Jackson's error. Garvey tried to score on Dale Murphy's single to left, but Dave Winfield threw him out easily. But Lance Parrish mishandled the throw for another error. Stieb gave up a solo HR to Gary Carter in the next inning, and left after two, trailing 2-1. Garcia replaced Lou Whitaker at second base in the 6th inning and popped out in his only at bat. Griffin replaced Cal Ripken at short in the same innning, but was lifted for a pinch-hitter (Don Mattingly) before coming to bat.

1985 - The Blue Jays were in first place at the All-Star Break, and four of them got to go to Minnesota. Dave Stieb (9-5, 1.87) and Damaso Garcia (.282, .305, .369) were both back, and they were joined by Ernie Whitt (.279, .346, .498, 10 HR, 37 RBI) and Jimmy Key (7-4, 2.85). Key was the first into the game, coming in as a LOOGY in place of Jack Morris with two out and the bases loaded in the third. He got Graig Nettles to foul out and was lifted for a pinch-hitter. The other three all came into the game in the sixth inning: Garcia replaced Lou Whitaker, Whitt took over for Carlton Fisk, and Stieb replaced Bert Blyleven on the mound. Stieb worked a scoreless inning, walking Jose Cruz and striking out Ryne Sandberg and Nolan Ryan. Whitt caught a couple of innings before being pinch-hit for by Gary Ward. Garcia flied out in his first at bat against Ryan, but later recorded the first Blue Jay base hit in an All-Star game, with a single against Jeff Reardon. Damo promptly stole second, but was out trying to make it to third after Jim Sundberg's throw got away.

1986 - Three young stars made their All-Star debuts in 1986: Jesse Barfield (.296, .373, .563, 21 HR, 65 RBI), Lloyd Moseby (.277, .358, .444, 13 HR, 49 RBI), and Tony Fernandez (.316, .351, .434). All three saw some action. Barfield pinch-hit for Dave Winfield in the fourth, and became the third of Fernando Valenzuela's five straight strikeout victims. He played RF for the rest of the game, striking out against Mike Scott in the seventh and grounding out against Mike Krukow in the ninth. Moseby replaced Rickey Henderson in LF in the sixth, and batted against Sid Fernandez in the eighth with Kirby Puckett on first. Moseby walked, and he and Puckett then worked a double steal. Fernandez replaced Cal Ripken at short for the ninth inning.

1987 - The Blue Jays sent three players again: Tony Fernandez(.310, .380, .429) returned, and he was joined by first-time All Stars Tom Henke (0-4, 2.81 with 17 SV) and George Bell (.293, .322, .609, 29 HR, 76 RBI). Bell was the first Blue Jay ever voted to the starting lineup by the fans. Bell went hitless in three at-bats, grounding out twice and popping out before coming out after six innings. Fernandez replaced Cal Ripken at short in the sixth. He ended up coming to the plate three times, going 0-2 with a sac bunt. Henke relieved Dave Righetti in the 9th with one out and Tim Raines on third base. He retired Juan Samuel and Jeff Leonard to get out of the jam, and when the AL couldn't score in the bottom half, found himself pitching an additional two innings. He allowed a single to Keith Hernandez in the 10th and another to Tim Raines in the 11th, before handing the ball to Jay Howell, who lost the game two innings later.

1988 - Tom Kelly took only one Blue Jay to Cincinnati, and it was Dave Stieb (10-5, 2.93), who had regained his form after a couple of sub-par seasons. Stieb worked a scoreless sixth with the AL leading 2-1, allowing a one-out single to Ryne Sandberg.

1989 - He wasn't really having a good year after being beaned by Cecilio Guante in April, but Tony Fernandez (.259, .292, .360) made it to his third All-Star game, and he was joined by a first-timer, Kelly Gruber (.308, .356, .442, 9 HR, 43 RBI). Gruber was the only AL position player who didn't get into the game. Fernandez ran for Cal Ripken in the fifth and played the rest of the game at short. He grounded out against Jay Howell in his one at bat.

1990 - Kelly Gruber (.296, .353, .561, 20 HR, 66 RBI), having the year of his life, was back for the second time, and so was George Bell (.278, .319, .486, 17 HR, 60 RBI), in his final Toronto season. They were joined by Dave Stieb (11-3, 3.15), making his seventh and final All-Star team. Stieb was the first man out of the AL pen, taking over for Bob Welch in the third inning of a scoreless game. He worked two tidy innings, allowing only a walk to Tony Gwynn. In the sixth inning, Gruber ran for Wade Boggs and Bell batted for Cal Ripken after a Canseco walk. Bell struck out against Dave Smith, but Gruber and Canseco pulled off a double steal. They stayed in the game, at 3B and LF. Bell flied out to right against Randy Myers in his other at bat. Gruber drew a walk against Rob Dibble and stole another base in the seventh; in his final at bat, he flied out against John Franco.

1991 - They played the game in Toronto, and new acquisition Roberto Alomar (.283, .353, .445) was the starting second-baseman. Alomar had played in the 1990 game as a Padre, for this one he was joined by Joe Carter (.302, .362, .564, 19 HR, 59 RBI) who had accompanied Alomar from San Diego, and Jimmy Key (10-4, 2.23). Alomar played the entire game, but went hitless in four at bats. Key replaced Jack Morris in the third inning with the AL down 1-0, and worked a scoreless inning, allowing a double to Ryne Sandberg. Key became the pitcher of record when the AL struck for three rus against Dennis Martinez in the bottom half, and got the win when they held on to the lead for the rest of the game. Carter took over in LF for Rickey Henderson in the fourth. He walked against Frank Viola in his first plate appearance. In the seventh, Carter singled against John Smiley and eventually scored on a Harold Baines sac fly. It had taken a while, but a Blue Jay had finally scored a run in an All-Star game.

1992 - Both Roberto Alomar (.323, .412, .460) and Joe Carter (.274, .322, .512, 19 HR, 63 RBI) were voted to the starting lineup, and Tom Kelly added Juan Guzman (11-2, 2.11) to the pitching staff. Alomar played the first three innnings and grounded out against Tom Glavine to start the game. Glavine gave up hits to the next seven hitters before getting out of the inning. Alomar singled off Glavine to lead off the second, stole both second and third, and scored on Carter's second hit. He grounded out against David Cone in his final at bat. Carter's first inning single off Glavine loaded the bases, and he later scored on Ripken's hit. Carter drove in Alomar from third with a base hit in the second before being retired by Bob Tewksbury and leaving the game. Guzman pitched the third inning, with the AL leading 6-0. He fanned Ryne Sandberg and Benito Santiago before getting into a spot of trouble. Larry Walker singled, followed by an Ozzie Smith and a walk to Tony Gwynn. Guzman got Barry Bonds on a pop up to end the inning.

1993 - No fewer than seven of the reigning champion Blue Jays went to Baltimore. Once more, both Roberto Alomar (.308 .392 .458) and Joe Carter(.265, .317, .522, 18 HR, 65 RBI ) had been voted to the starting lineup. They weren't the only ones, as they were joined by DH Paul Molitor(.307, .390, .448), in his fifth All-Star Game but his first as a Blue Jay, and 1B John Olerud(.395, .492, .671). Manager Cito Gaston also took along Duane Ward(1-2, 2.17, 22 SV), Devon White(.289, .355, .489), and Pat Hentgen (11-4, 3.54). White was probably the most controversial selection, as his inclusion essentially meant he was being taken instead of Rickey Henderson, who was having a typical Rickey season (.307, .462, .502 with 59 R and 28 SB). Alomar became the first Blue Jay to hit an All-Star homer, when he went deep off Andy Benes to tie the game in the third. He grounded out in his other two at bats. Carter also went 1-3, with a single against Benes. Olerud grounded out twice before leaving the game, while Molitor went 0-1 with a walk. Devon White took over for Ken Griffey in the sixth inning. He promptly justified his inclusion by hitting an RBI double off Steve Avery. He came around to score on a Smoltz wild pitch. He reached later on a fielder's choice and stole second. Pat Hentgen (and Mike Mussina) didn't get into the game: Duane Ward retired the side in order to close out the AL win, striking out Gregg Jefferies and Mike Piazza.

1994 - The fans voted Roberto Alomar (.313, .382, .461) to start at 2b for the fourth straight year, and Joe Carter (.270, .315, .528, 19 HR, 80 RBI) was voted to man an outfield position for the third year in a row. Cito Gaston this time brought along just two of his Blue Jays, Paul Molitor (.342, .415, .507) and Pat Hentgen (11-5, 3.16). After grounding out twice, Alomar singled off Doug Drabek, stole second, and scored on a Griffey single. Carter lined into a double play, flied out, and then reached on a three-base error by Matt Williams and scored the game's tying run on a Puckett single. Both came out of the game at that point. Molitor had grounded out while pinch-hiting for starter Jimmy Key in the third. Pat Hentgen worked the seventh inning, with the AL ahead 7-5. He allowed a leadoff single to Jeff Bagwell, but got Wil Cordero hit into a DP and Tony Gwynn to ground out.

1995 - No starters this time, although Roberto Alomar (.316, .375, .523) went to his fifth straight game. He pinch-ran for starting 2B Carlos Baerga in the 6th inning, and instantly stole third base. He was stranded there, and stayed in to play second for the rest of the game. He flied out against Heathcliff Slocumb in his only at bat.

1996 - With Alomar in Baltimore, Joe Carter (.284, .352, .556, 20 HR, 70 RBI) returned to carry the Blue Jay banner. He replaced Kenny Lofton in CF in the seventh and singled off Todd Worrell in his only at bat.

1997 - The Jays had the reigning Cy Young winner in Pat Hentgen (8-6, 3.27) and the man who would win it for the next two seasons, Roger Clemens (13-3, 1.69). Both got to pitch in the game. With the AL up 1-0, Clemens worked a scoreless third, allowing a single to Jeff Blauser. It was still 1-0 when Hentgen set down the NL in order in the sixth.

1998 - The only Blue Jay invited was Cy Young winner Roger Clemens (9-6, 3.55), who relieved starter David Wells in the third inning of a scoreless game, and had a tough outing. He walked Larry Walker and gave up a single to Walt Weiss; Glavine's sac bunt moved the runners to second and third. Clemens hit Craig Biggio to load the bases and Tony Gwynn delivered a two run single to put the NL on top before Rocket got McGwire and Bonds to end the inning.

1999 - In his third Toronto tour, Tony Fernandez (.372, .464, .514) was hitting .400 until late June. He replaced Cal Ripken at 3B in the fifth inning and went hitless in his two at bats. But he wasn't the only one! I had completely forgotten, but other Bauxites had vivid memories of Shawn Green (.327, .409, .638, 25 HR, 70 RBI) playing in this All-Star Game: John Northey reports that "He came in defensively for Manny Ramirez in the 4th inning and had an infield single (to second) in the 5th and was out in a force play by Tony Fernandez. He was lifted defensively in the 7th for Magglio Ordonez."

2000 - Three Blue Jays got the call, and a great first half by David Wells (15-2, 3.44) won him the starting assignment ahead of Pedro Martinez. Both Carlos Delgado (.363, .476, .709, 28 HR, 80 RBI) and Tony Batista (.289, .328, .571, 24 HR, 72 RBI) went to their first All-Star games. Wells worked a pair of scoreless innings, allowing singles to Chipper Jones and Jim Edmonds. Delgado replaced Mike Sweeney at 1B in the fourth, and in his one at bat hit a double off Darryl Kile. Batista struck out pinch-hitting for Troy Glaus in the eighth and finished the game at third base.

2001 - Middle relievers have not normally been strong All-Star candidates, but Paul Quantrill (7-2, 2.13) did have a remarkable year in 2001. He had issued just 6 BB when the All-Star Break came along, and 4 of those had been intentional. He came in to work the sixth inning with the AL holding a 2-0 lead, and was immediately touched up for a double by Jeff Kent. After an Aurilia ground out, Lance Berkman singled to put runners on the corners. Mike Stanton relieved Quantrill and stranded one of his two base runners.

2002 - Roy Halladay (9-4, 3.06) made his All-Star debut in Milwaukee, and was the first man on in relief of starter Derek Lowe, with the AL already trailing 1-0. Doc got roughed up in his one inning of work. After Jimmy Rollins led off with a single, Halladay got Luis Gonzalez and Jose Vidro for the first two outs. Rollins had moved up to second on the Gonzalez ground-out and he scored when Todd Helton singled. That brought Barry Bonds to the plate, and he hit one off the facing of the upper deck to put the NL up 4-0. Doc struck out Sammy Sosa, and called it a night.

2003 - The fans voted Carlos Delgado (.314, .426, .633, 27 HR, 95 RBI) into the starting lineup at 1B; he was the first Blue Jay to win a fan vote since Alomar and Carter in 1994. He was joined by Roy Halladay (13-2, 3.41) and, making his All-Star debut, Vernon Wells (.299, .338, .556, 23 HR, 84 RBI). Halladay didn't get into this game, but Wells would play a key role in its outcome. Delgado played the first five innings, and made his initial mark with his glove, as he made a nice catch on Gary Sheffield's pop up, reaching into into the seats beyond the camera well. At the plate, he flied out against starter Jason Schmidt in the first, delivered an RBI single off Randy Wolf to produce the game's first run in the third, and struck out against Russ Ortiz in the fifth. Wells came in as a pinch-runner for Hideki Matsui in the fourth and replaced him in centrefield. In his first at bat, he flied out to deep centre against Woody Williams in the sixth. Then in the 8th, with two out and the AL trailing 6-4, Wells doubled off Eric Gagne to score Melvin Mora. He then scored himself when Hank Blalock followed with the go-ahead homer.

2004 - It was tough to find an All-Star during the Season From Hell; in the end Ted Lilly (7-6, 4.27) got the call. He came on in the sixth with the AL leading 9-4, and gave up singles to Moises Alou and Mark Loretta to start his inning of work. He got out of it by retiring Carlos Beltran on a popup, Jack Wilson on a line drive, and JimThome on strikes.

2005 - Two were called, but only one could attend. Roy Halladay (12-4, 2.41) was named to the team, and was set to start the game for the AL before a broken leg knocked him out of the lineup. That left just Shea Hillenbrand (.302, .364, .451) to actually play in the game. He came in to play third base for Melvin Mora in the eighth inning, and fielded a couple of ground balls, but didn't make it up to the plate.

2006 - Five Blue Jays were named to the squad - outfielders Vernon Wells (.311, 377, .594 with 21 HR and 66 RBI) and Alex Rios (.330, .383, .585 with 15 HR, 53 RB),  third baseman Troy Glaus (.241, .342, .518 with 23 HR, 60 RBI) and pitchers Roy Halladay (12-2, 2.92) and B.J. Ryan (1-0, 0.84, 24 SV). Alas, a staph infection meant that Rios was unable to take part in the fun. Wells, however, moved into the starting lineup in CF when fan choice Manny Ramirez couldn't make the show. Wells went 1-2 (a 5th inning single against Bronson Arroyo) before being replaced by Gary Matthews. Halladay was the secoind AL pitcher called upon, with the score tied at 1-1 after two innings. Doc allowed three hits and a run in his two innings of work - Soriano singled and stole second, and tried to score on Beltran's single but Wells gunned him out at home. However Beltran took second on the throw, promptly stole third base and scored on a Halladay wild pitch. Which made the Doc the pitcher of record to lose the game, if the NL's lead held up. It held up until the ninth inning. Troy Glaus had replaced Alex Rodriguez at 3b in the sixth inning, and hit into a DP his first time up. He batted again, with two out in the ninth and Seatlle's Jose Lopez on first base. Glaus hit a ground rule double against Trevor Hoffmann and he and Lopez both scored on Michael Young's two run single, giving the AL a 3-2 lead, getting Doc off the hook, and placing B.J. Ryan in line for the W. Ryan had retired the side in order in the righth inning, and after Mariano Rivera worked around a Lopez error in the bottom of the ninth, Ryan became the third Blue Jay hurler to win an All Star game.

2007 - Alex Rios (.294, .350, .520 with 17 HR, 53 RBI) was the only Jay was named to the team, and he came very close to not getting into this game as well. Rios finally appeared as part of a double switch, coming into the game along with Francisco Rodriguez with two out in the ninth inning. The AL was clinging to a 5-4 lead and the tying run was on first. K-Rod walked the first two men he faced to load the bases, but then got Aaron Rowand to fly out to Rios in RF for the game's final out.

2008 - Roy Halladay (11-6, 2.71) was the only Jay who went to Yankee Stadium for the Josh Hamilton HR Derby. Doc worked a quiet fourth inning in what was still scoreless game, fanning Berkman, allowing a single to Pujols (thrown out by Suzuki trying to turn it into a double) and getting Chipper Jones on a groundout.

2009 - Two Jays made the trip to St. Louis, and both were in the starting lineup. Aaron Hill (.292, .333, .487, with 20 HR, 60 RBI) was filling in for fan choice Dustin Pedroia, and Roy Halladay (10-3, .285) was finally getting his first All Star game start.  The AL gave Doc a quick 2-0 lead, but with two out in the second, the NL rallied with four straight hits - singles by Wright and Victorino, a two run single by Yadier Molina and a ground rule 2B by Fielder. Once again, he was on the hook to lose the game, but the AL tied it up in the fifth and won it on a Granderson 3b and Jones sac fly in the eighth. Hill stayed in until the eighth inning, and went 0-3.

2010 - Three Blue Jays made the trip to Disneyland - outfielders Vernon Wells (.265, .319, .524 with 19 HR) and Jose Bautista (.237, .361, .563 with 24 HR, 56 RBI), and catcher John Buck (.272, .306, .502), who was replacing the injured Victor Martinez. Bautista pinch ran for Josh Hamilton in the bottom of the sixth and replaced him in RF for the rest of the game, fouling out in his only plate appearance. Wells and Buck had already entered the game in the top half of the inning.  Buck, who had replaced Joe Mauer behind the plate, hit a double off Wainwright in the seventh, and came up again in the ninth inning with one out, the AL trailing 3-1, and David Ortiz on first base. Buck hit what should have been a single to RF, except that Marlon Byrd forced Ortiz at second base. Wells had taken over for Crawford in LF in the sixth inning and grounded out in his only plate appearance. He was in the on-deck circle when Kinsler flied out to end the game.

2011 - Two Blue Jays made the trip to Phoenix last year. Ricky Romero (7-8, 3.09), like so many first time All Star pitchers, was just along for the ride and didn't get into the game. After a Ruthian first half, Jose Bautista (.334, .468, .702 with 31 HR, 65 RBI) was the fan's choice to start the game in RF. And being Jose, he competed. First he made a sliding catch in foul territory off the bat of Brian McCann. In the fourth inning, he singled in his second plate appearance and tried to score from second on Beltre's two out single. He was out at home after a fine throw by Hunter Pence - the NL promptly went took the lead in the next half inning, and held it the rest of the way, giving the Cheapest Win Possible to Tyler Clippard, who had faced one batter (Beltre) and allowed a hit.

2012 - Jose Bautista (.244, .360, .540 with 27 HR, 65 RBI ) was the fan's choice as a starting outfielder. He struck out and walked in his two plate appearances. He was far busier chasing down the numerous blasts the NL sluggers deposited in the RF corner, and distinguished himself with a fine sliding catch on Braun's sinking liner in the second.

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The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 05:40 AM EDT (#260098) #
On the balls Bautista could reach, he looked very, very good defensively.   On the balls he couldn't reach, he looked very bad.   Strangely enough, almost the reverse could've applied offensively, with a K and a BB.   Bautista himself is for trading top prospects for help now.   Only I can almost guarantee A.A. can't make a deal when he must. 
bpoz - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 09:23 AM EDT (#260105) #
Thanks Magpie for the wonderful trip down memory lane.
Forkball - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 10:01 AM EDT (#260106) #

Thanks Magpie, good to see you back writing.

 

Bautista himself is for trading top prospects for help now

Just like every single player in the majors. 

mathesond - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 10:25 AM EDT (#260107) #
Only I can almost guarantee A.A. can't make a deal when he must.

You're the only one that can make that guarantee?

Besides, in about a week Justin Upton and Joe Saunders will be wearing Blue Jay uniforms. Only I can make that guarantee.
John Northey - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 10:27 AM EDT (#260108) #
Noticed a new feature (at least new to me) at Baseball-Reference - a statistical summary of hitters & pitchers by franchise.
  • Most IP in an all-star game : 3 IP by Dave Stieb in 1983. 2nd is 2 2/3 by closer Tom Henke in 1987 (imagine the screaming if someone did that now)
  • Only 2 Jays have given up home runs in an AS Game: Halladay (2002) and Stieb (1984)
  • Stieb's 3 IP game had 4 K's for the Jays record, 2nd is a massive tie with 2 (Stieb twice, Guzman, Ward, and David Wells)
  • Clemens in 1998 hit a batter, the only Jay to do that
  • Stieb in 1980 had 2 wild pitches, Halladay one in 2006.
  • Stieb, Henke and Halladay all faced 10+ in one game, while Key (1985) facing 1 was the fewest of those who faced anyone (5 didn't face anyone, Romero, Halladay twice, Hentgen and Lemanczyk)
  • 3 wins (Stieb, Key, Ryan) vs 1 loss (Stieb).  No saves yet.
  • Totals: 2.72 ERA over 33 IP 32 H 8 BB 24 SO 2 HR

For hitters...

  • Most plate appearances: Roberto Alomar 4  in 1991(0 for 4)
  • Most hits: 2 by Joe Carter in 1992
  • Home Run: Alomar in 1993
  • No triples, 5 doubles (Buck, Glaus, Wells, White, Delgado)
  • Barfield in 1986 struck out twice
  • 4 players have a walk (Carter, Molitor, Gruber, Moseby)
  • 2 stolen bases by Alomar (92) and Gruber (90)
  • Just 5 Jays have an RBI (White, Delgado, Wells, Alomar, Carter)
  • 9 times a Jay has scored
  • 79 PA, 18 H 5 2B, 0 3B 1 HR 5 RBI 9 R 9 SB 0 CS 4 BB 11 SO
  • 246/278/356 for an 635 OPS (ugh)


Lylemcr - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 11:00 AM EDT (#260109) #

The only thing I can guarantee, is that whatever AA does (or does not do) before the trading deadline, is going to piss people off.

Come on, you lose 3 starters in 5 days, it would be devistating to any team.  Plus your ace is a shell of himself(Who I think is injured too) and you lose your closer 2 weeks into the season.  The Jays have scored the 3rd highest amount of any team in baseball.  Thier ERA is 26th.  It is obvious why they are hovering around 500.  If the pitching staff was not decimated with injury, the Jays could be contending. 

I don't know, with all of these injuries, the Jays are not one or to players away.  I don't know the status of Santos and Morrow too.  If they are close, than I would say go for it.  But, I sense that they are not. 

I would be tempted to try to trade some assets(Oliver, Johnson, Davis,etc) to get more young players.  Next year, go into the season with a healthy Romero, Morrow, Hutchinson (hopefully) and Alvarez and find another starter or maybe we are talking about Sanchez, Nicolino,etc. (not the hodge podge we had last year.) 

sweat - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 11:40 AM EDT (#260112) #
If I was AA I would wait for the deadline and trade Encarnacian.   EE is at his most valuable, can play multiple positions and would be the easiest way to net a good, young starting pitcher, or some other kind of high end prospect.  After the season, I would see about bringing EE back. 
I don't think EE being moved ends our wild card chances, especially if the return is a young starter, ready for MLB.
Chuck - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 12:17 PM EDT (#260114) #

especially if the return is a young starter, ready for MLB.

I think you are vastly over-estimating the possible returns for an impending free agent.

 

John Northey - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 12:52 PM EDT (#260115) #
The Jays actually are contending despite the injuries.  2 1/2 games out of a playoff spot is not 'out of it' by any means (2 if you don't count Baltimore).

What I'm certain AA is chasing is high quality starting pitching and high quality offense (LF/1B/DH slot) that will be here for at least 2013 and probably 2014/2015.  That stuff will be expensive unless you get a Rasmus/Morrow type situation in which case the player probably won't be 100% useful this year.

The Jays have a very useful trade-able asset at shortstop in Escobar or Hechavarria as shortstops are always in demand.  Ideally you'd keep both for 2013 but for the right piece why not?  Might be able to get Johnson to sign on for 2 more years if needed to ensure there is a decent 2B on the team in 2013/2014.  Tons of young pitching in the minors (always valuable trade chips) and, if in a super risk mood, could trade JPA and let Mathis be the primary catcher until d"Arnaud is healthy again (scary, but an option and given how JPA is hitting this year might not be the worst idea).  Mix in the outfielders in AAA (Snider, Gose, Sierra, Thames) and you might be able to piece together something.

So who to get?  Arizona is said to be putting Justin Upton on the market due to his 100 OPS+ this year after his 139 breakout year last year (another buy low opportunity? Although they are smart enough to not dump him for a few relievers).  Ian Kennedy was their ace last year but has difficulty this year - can't imagine they'd trade him but never hurts to check.  Willie Bloomquist has been their regular SS with McDonald as the backup - both well past 30 and while both have hit decently this year no one expects that to continue.  A team that is worthwhile for AA to chase down. 

It is nice to know that AA does ask about everyone (as said in many trade rumour posts) so if someone unexpected is made available he is in position to swoop down.
Sano - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#260116) #
One thing I was thinking was that if Upton comes our way, it's more than likely than Snider is going to be going the other (or somehow involved in a trade). Makes no sense to get a long-term power LF and then keep hold of Snider.

Like others have said, I think AA is going to make a bold move and trade someone that no one is really expecting him to. I could see EE, JPA, Johnson, Escobar, Hech all being involved somehow (not all being traded, but all being considered as tradebait). I really don't think that he'll want to trade any of his highly prized lower minors arms until he sees them at a higher level and has a chance to make a better assessment of their long term value.

I'm also wondering about Bautista's comments. While I understand that he's not exactly young and is in his prime right now, I have to think that AA is a little pissed that Bautista is calling for major trades when it's clear that the Jays pitching (already their biggest weakness) has been decimated by a series of freak injuries.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 01:06 PM EDT (#260117) #
The new CBA may militate against trading certain players like EE. Right now there is a good chance that the Jays will be able to get draft compensation for him via a qualifying offer (i.e., if he doesn't re-sign with the team). All indications are that the Jays place a high value on having extra draft picks. But if he's traded, neither team will get draft compensation for him, as a player has to have been with his club for the entire season for compensation to kick in.

I'm not sure other teams are going to give the Jays enough to sway them from the qualifying offer/draft compensation strategy. It could happen, but it seems less likely under the new rules.
Moe - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 01:22 PM EDT (#260118) #
All indications are that the Jays place a high value on having extra draft picks. But if he's traded, neither team will get draft compensation for him, as a player has to have been with his club for the entire season for compensation to kick in.

I completely agree and this part of the CBA I really don't get. I understand why they got rid of the old "type A/B" system. But why also limit tradability of the few impact players that can be moved relatively easily?

sweat - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 01:44 PM EDT (#260119) #
EE doesn't have to be traded all on his own, but he is a much bigger impact bat than typically get's traded at the deadline.  Beltran got the Mets Zack Wheeler last year.  I don't think it would be crazy to think EE could be as or more valuable than Beltran was.  EE has some positional flexibility (1b, 3b, LF), with none of the injury potential that Beltran had. Obvioulsy 1b is his best fit and the only position he would be better than average defensively.
John Northey - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#260120) #
I figure MLB wants to keep the 'stars' with their core teams as long as possible.  That moves in the offseason are more acceptable than during the season but the fewer moves the better overall.  Much easier to market guys with the uniform of one team than switching mid-season to a second team.  Players, meanwhile, as a rule hate to be traded - they get settled in at one place with their family then have to uproot them mid-season.  They do it, but imagine if your boss came up to you and said 'office is relocating tomorrow across the country - pack your bags'.  Regardless of what you make that would be tough to do.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 02:15 PM EDT (#260121) #
I think Keith Law referred to it as the "screw you Anthopoulos" rule when it was introduced.
sam - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#260122) #
Do people here think the Jays should be "in" on Justin Upton? I admit the thought of an outfield of Upton, Rasmus, Bautista is incredibly enticing, but the package for Upton must be pretty expensive. Word is it would have to start with Hechavarria and at least two other impact players. Would people do this?

Hechavarria
Gose
Syndergaard

Upton
92-93 - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 02:58 PM EDT (#260123) #
Upton is 24 years old and is a career .276/.357/.477 hitter over 2700+ PA. I wouldn't think twice about that deal based on what we know and certainly don't consider that to be an expensive package. This fanbase is as guilty as any in grossly overvaluing their own prospects.
John Northey - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#260124) #
Hech, Gose, Syndergaard for a 24 year old former All-Star?  Sounds cheap unless Hech or Gose or Syndergaard look to be locks for multiple AS Games in the future.  Gose & Hech are doing OK in Vegas, but their likely best cases are Alex Gonzalez v1 with less power and Devon White it seems - solid but Upton has a peak potential that is much higher.   Given Arizona is just 4 games out and was in the playoffs last year I suspect they'll insist on someone off the ML roster (sorry, they already have a logjam at 1B) and might demand Snider or Thames as well.  Even then I think it is too weak - instead of Syndergaard they'd probably want someone young who is pitching (or has pitched) in the majors already.  Hutchison or Drabek would've been demanded I'd bet if they weren't hurt.  As is the Jays cannot give up a pitcher in the majors though. 

Of course, like everyone else I thought they'd get nada for Wells and have to eat 50% of his contract.  So who knows?
uglyone - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#260125) #
I'd package 5 or 6 of our top-10 prospects, plus filler, for Upton and Halladay.
TamRa - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#260126) #
" Word is it would have to start with Hechavarria and at least two other impact players. Would people do this?

Hechavarria
Gose
Syndergaard

Upton

--------------------

In half a heartbeat.

Mike Green - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 03:29 PM EDT (#260127) #
A 24 year-old right-fielder with a career wRC+ of 116 (and slug-heavy) and who is scheduled to make $14.5 million in 2014 and 2015 neither excites me terribly nor seems to fit with the club's needs.  If you are taking on that kind of salary, the prospect return would have to be relatively minor to make it worthwhile. 
uglyone - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#260128) #
Age 21

McCutchen (AAA): 590pa, 11.5bb%, 14.7k%, .325babip, .115iso, .283/.372/.398/.770, .347woba, 113wRC+
A.Gose (AAA): 414pa, 10.4bb%, 21.3k%, .373babip, .133iso, .290/.371/.423/.794, .363woba, 112wRC+
D.White (A): 609pa, 9.2bb%, 19.4k%, ???babip, .107iso, .283/.361/.390/.752

Age 20

McCutchen (AA): 494pa, 8.7bb%, 16.4k%, .296babip, .126iso, .260/.327/.386/.713, .332woba, 100wRC+ (AAA: 72pa, 5.6bb%, 15.3k%, .357babip, .313/.347/.418/.765, .337woba, 105wRC+)
A.Gose (AA): 587pa, 10.6bb%, 26.2k%, .332babip, .161iso, .253/.349/.415/.764, .364woba, 124wC+
D.White (A): 487pa, 7.4bb%, 25.5k%, ???babip, .159iso, .253/.326/.412/.738 (AA: 79pa, 8.9bb%, 27.8k%, ???babip, .157iso, .257/.329/.414/.743)

Age 19

McCutchen (A): 503pa, 8.3bb%, 18.1k%, .336babip, .155iso, .291/.356/.446/.802, .369woba, 126wRC+ (AA: 83pa, 8.4bb%, 24.1k%, .385babip, .307/.373/.467/.840, .378woba, 139wRC+)
A.Gose (A+): 574pa, 7.8bb%, 23.0k%, .339babip, .131iso, .262/.332/.393/.724, .326woba, 103wRC+
D.White (A): 198pa, 5.6bb%, 22.3k%, ???babip, .059iso, .215/.259/.274/.533
dan gordon - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#260129) #
A couple of things to consider regarding Upton.  First, he plays in a great hitters' park.  Look at his home/road splits.  For his career, his home numbers are .302/.385/.539/.924, compared to road numbers of .251/.328/.417/.744.  Those road numbers are not very appealing.  Second, as far as his career progress is concerned, his OPS numbers by season for 2008 - 2012 are roughly .800, .900, .800, .900, .750  Not really making any progress, which I would hope to see in a young player.  These represent his age 20/21 through age 24/25 seasons.  He steals about 20 bases a year, but he gets caught stealing about a third of the time, so that offsets the steals.  He obviously is a talented young player, who still could develop, since he is still young, just about to turn 25, but I'd be somewhat cautious about him.  He's owed $38.5 million for 2013-2015.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#260130) #
"road numbers of .251/.328/.417/.744."

now that there is interesting for sure.

and of course, we should also consider the career progression of his equally talented older brother.
sweat - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 03:41 PM EDT (#260131) #
I don't think AA would trade three guys he expects to control for 18 years for a guy, for a guy he controls for three, who 'might' hit well enough to earn his salary.
sam - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#260133) #
Jays have signed their 15th rounder Ryan Borucki to an over-slot deal worth $426K.

http://twitter.com/jimcallisBA

A word on Borucki. Borucki is a tall, skinny LH pitching prospect out of Illinois where he was the top prospect in the state. There is an awful lot to like in Borucki who has grown substantially these past few years. Projectable is the first thing that comes to mind as he clearly has not stopped growing and his fastball velocity has jumped substantially in recent years. He has a fairly loose, whippy-like arm that will add some velocity to a high-80s fastball that touches low-90s. The closest prospect comparison in the Jays organization might be Justin Nicolino, however, Borucki lacks the polish and secondary offerings Nicolino possessed as an amateur. Borucki had an elbow issue earlier this year that he opted to rehab. He returned just prior to the draft and sat in the low-90s. He is exactly the type of prospect good organizations invest in. Incredibly projectable and will likely need some significant seasoning in rookie ball before being subjected to the rigours of a full season club, but in two years time he could be a real physical specimen with plus stuff.

According to my spreadsheet, Borucki's signing also pushes to Jays to $436,200 over their bonus allotment and $5,340 below the 5% cap before losing their first rounder next year. I imagine then, any signings before the friday deadline will be for the $100,000 slot.

I'd also like to apologize as in an earlier thread I wrongly questioned others here in their faith that the Jays would spend over the bonus allotment to be taxed. I stand corrected. The Jays have spent money here and in the IFA market going over the allotments, which others here predicted.
Kelekin - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#260135) #

William DuPont, our 16th rounder, has also signed.  Here are the quick notes on them from the draft recap thread.


Ryan Borucki (15th round) injured himself in March, and suddenly fell off prospect radars.  His potential was still known however, as teams called him as early as the 3rd round.  It is extremely unlikely the 6'4" lefty will sign without receiving more than 100K, as he himself has stated “I think the fact that the Blue Jays are planning on coming out here says that they have a lot of faith in me and they think they might have enough money leftover (after signing higher picks) to sign me." Borucki has a good breaking ball and has hit 91-92 MPH on the gun.

 

William DuPont (16th round) is a blazing-fast shortstop, having run a 6.47 60.  He has the best speed out of the Missouri crop, but struggled with the bat in his senior season after a tremendous junior season put him on the map.  He may be a tough sign, but would be an exciting player to add to our system.

BlueJayWay - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#260136) #
"road numbers of .251/.328/.417/.744."

now that there is interesting for sure.


and of course, we should also consider the career progression of his equally talented older brother.


This is the first time I've seen someone else mention Upton's home/road split.  It's should give one pause.
dan gordon - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#260138) #

This is the first time I've seen someone else mention Upton's home/road split.  It should give one pause.

Yes, any time you are considering trading for a hitter who plays in an extreme hitters' park, like in Colorado, Arizona or Texas, you absolutely must make allowances for the fact that their raw numbers are inflated by the park.  What you see is not what you get. 

Just for fun, I looked at Alex Rios' road numbers for his career.  His road OPS is about 25-30 points lower than Upton's, but his base stealing percentage is better.  Now, Upton is still at an age where he could show improvement, and Rios is not, but so far, Upton hasn't hit much better than Rios has averaged over his career, when you back out the home park numbers.  Interestiingly enough, their salaries are comparable for the remainder of their contracts on an average annual basis, but Rios is only locked in for 2 more years, the 3rd year is an option.  I can't imagine people would be so eager to be giving up significant prospects for Rios.  Of course, there is that possible upside if Upton develops further as a player...

John Northey - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#260139) #
Eh, home road splits rarely mean much.  Park context matters, that is why it is factored into stuff like OPS+, WAR, etc. but generally while some guys get extreme splits they tend to balance out once out of the park (Andre Dawson was well known for extreme splits in Chicago but his OPS+ lifetime in Montreal [a horrid park on his knees] is 122 vs 125 while a Cub - his top 2 OPS+ years were in Montreal - given his age it did help him but not to the degree some thought it would).

Given who our GM is here I cannot imagine him giving up 3 top prospects for one guy who is hitting for a 100 OPS+ anyways.  I imagine him trying to sell them on Escobar and a pitching prospect plus something small for Upton plus a minor leaguer who isn't rated high by most but his scouts have seen something.  Ah for the days of two relievers for an outfielder plus future near HOF'er in A ball.

85bluejay - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 04:49 PM EDT (#260140) #
The last time Upton was on the market, the Jays did not have Rasmus and Upton was 23 - How much interest the Jays have in Upton may be a reflection of their appraisal of Snider  and if he's made the changes they wanted - I don't see the Jays overpaying for Upton, but would be interested in a buy low market. 
hypobole - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 04:49 PM EDT (#260141) #
"William DuPont...struggled with the bat in his senior season"

So he'll fit right in with our GCL team.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#260142) #
I think the entire GCL is posting something like a .650ops right now.
Chuck - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 05:44 PM EDT (#260143) #
I more than halfway expect Brian Fuentes to be a Blue Jay before too long.
Lylemcr - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 05:54 PM EDT (#260144) #

I don't know if Upton solves anything for the Jays.  If you compare Upton to Rajai Davis (and you prorate Rajai), Uption is only better in Average and Rajai has considerably more SB.  I am not saying they are the same player, because that is not true.  But is Upton going to upgrade the Jays to playoff contender? 

If the Jays were to make a trade that gives up the farm, I hope it is for starters.  They really could use a top of the line starter. 

If Morrow and Santos come back, plus another top 3 starter is acquired, the playoffs are a possability. (Mind you losing Perez hurts.  He was great out of the pen.)

Pitching Pitching Pitching....

hypobole - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#260145) #
"I think the entire GCL is posting something like a .650ops right now."

The GCL Jays are last in the league with a .603 OPS. To be fair though, they are the youngest team. The hitters average age is 18.7 vs the league average of 19.7. That's huge. But it's still no less painful to look at their boxscores.
mathesond - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 06:34 PM EDT (#260146) #
As long as we're only looking at Upton's road stats, the fact that a lot of his road games are played in San Diego, LA, and San Francisco should also be taken into account.

I could see Arizona asking for Snider/Hech/Alvarez. I suspect the Jays would need a pitcher (Saunders? Kennedy?) to be included.
smcs - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 06:54 PM EDT (#260147) #
As long as we're only looking at Upton's road stats, the fact that a lot of his road games are played in San Diego, LA, and San Francisco should also be taken into account.

Unless I have done the math really and completely wrong (a possibility):
                 
                                             PA / AVG / OBP / SLG / OPS
Upton @ Arizona (home): 1369 / .302 / .385 / .539 / .924
Upton @ LAD, SFG & SD:    445 / .263 / .330 / .467 / .797
Upton @ every other park: 919 / .245 / .327 / .392 / .719

scottt - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#260148) #
Even as an Expo, Dawson had incredible numbers in Wrigleys.
Something like an extra .300 OPS over his home numbers every year.

Speaking of park factor. I notice there is as much variance in walks between parks as their is between hits and homerun. How does anyone explain that?
Bad umpires?

John Northey - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 07:44 PM EDT (#260149) #
The walk/strikeout would be due to a few factors, but the top one I would figure is backdrop. A solid black one without a waterfall or something else to draw your eye away would work best - ideally covering the entire zone that your eyes are going when watching any pitcher throw. There is a standard (thus the blocked off seats in CF in the SkyDome) but different parks can be set up in odd ways that can screw up a hitters line of vision.

Other factors could be how home run happy a park is (encourages more full swings with 2 strikes) or how big the foul ground is (big foul ground = more outs before getting to 2 strikes).
92-93 - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 09:20 PM EDT (#260153) #
Justin Upton has been a better player than Brett Lawrie at every age and at every level. When Justin Upton was 20 he hit .250/.353/.463 at the MLB level. When Brett Lawrie was 20 he hit .285/.346/.449 in AA, the same league Justin Upton hit .309/.399/.556 as a 19 year old.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 10:09 PM EDT (#260154) #
true, but Lawrie has been better at ages 21 and 22 than Upton at ages 23 and 24.
grjas - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 10:18 PM EDT (#260155) #
Why are we talking about Justn Upton? Reminds me of last year's threads. I guess hittng stats are sexier. This team needs serious piitching help for this year and next and everything else is irrelevant.
sam - Wednesday, July 11 2012 @ 10:44 PM EDT (#260157) #
Yah uglyone, I don't buy that. In many respects Upton and Lawrie are having virtually identical years this year. Lawrie has an OPS. of .004 above Upton's. Then you're assuming that Lawrie was going to hit as he did in forty games for the whole season, which by extrapolation would mean 35+ HRs, 90+ RBIs, 90+ runs, slugging at .580 clip? I don't know if I buy that? Upton on the other hand did put up those numbers.
uglyone - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 12:17 AM EDT (#260158) #
fair enough, it's not clean cut at all, and obviously last year was much smaller sample for Lawrie, but I'd say Lawrie's been in the same ballpark as Upton the last two years offensively, and apparently better defensively to boot.

2012

J.Upton: 331pa, .755ops, .324woba, 97wRC+, 1.2uzr/150, 1.2fwar, 1.2bwar
B.Lawrie: 350pa, .759ops, .327woba, 105wRC+, 18.2uzr/150, 2.7fwar, 5.0bwar

2011

J.Upton: 674pa, .898ops, .385woba, 140wRC+, 6.8uzr/150, 6.4fwar, 5.7bwar
B.Lawrie: 171pa, .953ops, .413woba, 163wRC+, 15.7uzr/150, 2.7fwar, 3.5bwar
Lawrie (AAA): 329pa, 1.076ops, .460woba, 166wRC+
dan gordon - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 12:33 AM EDT (#260159) #

Eh, home road splits rarely mean much.

They certainly do when you are talking about parks like Colorado, Arizona and Texas.  For a few years in the late 90's, Dante Bichette looked like the best hitter in baseball.  Clearly, he was not.  How could it not matter when you play half your games in a park that greaty inflates offensive statistics.

And if people want to talk about Upton playing road games in LA, SF and SD, you also should be mentioning that he plays a lot of road games in Colorado.

Brain Fuentes was mentioned - I also would think the Jays would take a look at him.

Richard S.S. - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 12:40 AM EDT (#260160) #
If I move a quality pitching prospect or two, I am getting back a Starter, no ifs, ands or buts. If I am acquiring Upton, I'm also getting Kennedy, for the sole purpose of flipping Upton and prospects to Seattle for Felix.
Oceanbound - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 05:35 AM EDT (#260161) #
Upton's wRC+ home/road splits by season:

2012: 99 / 96
2011: 180 / 100
2010: 109 / 111
2009: 144 / 121
2008: 156 / 44

That actually doesn't seem all that egregious, if you give him a  mulligan on the putrid almost-rookie season. You want an actual Product of the Park, look at this:

2012: 208 / 101
2011: 163 / 99
2010: 197 / 98
2009: 139 / 102

The Jays do, however, need a pitcher a lot more than they need Justin Upton.
Mike Green - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 09:07 AM EDT (#260165) #
The comparison between Lawrie and Upton is unhelpful.  Lawrie was 20 years old when acquired and the possibility of significant improvement was much higher than it is for the 24 year old Upton.  Lawrie also brought to the table significant defensive abilities which Upton does not have. 

Upton is a 24 year old right-fielder with a wRC+ of 116.  He obviously can take a significant leap forward and be a star, but right now, he's just an above-average player.  His BBRef similars include Ruben Sierra, Jose Canseco, Jack Clark and Juan Gonzalez.  Clark would be the model for success- by his late 20s, he had superb strike zone judgment to go with the pop. Clark had already improved significantly in this area by age 24 and Upton has not. 

whiterasta80 - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 09:10 AM EDT (#260166) #

Every time a Colorado, Arizona, or Texas player is available we inevitably talk about home/road splits: to me it is getting a little much. With this logic, Oakland and St. Louis would never have acquired Matt Holliday.

While I accept that those are hitters parks I don't buy the notion of automatically assigning Upton a .750 OPS on the Jays just because that's what he does on the road. There are plenty of reasons for a player to hit better at home on the road that have nothing to do with their park. For one thing, the league tends to set the schedule such that a team has more advantages at home (i.e. more rest/less travel leading up to home dates). The NBA, and NHL are notorious for this and well they should. Plus, a player may simply respond better to sleeping in his own bed before the game, may have a better diet at home, may be more likely to have a quiet evening with the family etc... (N.B. This can go the other way too, just look at Colby Rasmus' career splits).  I would also point out that we play in a hitters park ourselves which may mitigate any decline!

There are plenty of red flags on Justin Upton. For example, based on his brother's career trajectory I wouldn't pay alot for his alleged "potential". I do think he is better than he's shown this season, but I'm not expecting an MVP season ever. I also place absolutely no value on his "speed".  But for the deal above, sign me up!

greenfrog - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 10:15 AM EDT (#260170) #
I don't have a strong opinion about Justin Upton. However, I don't think the Jays should get overconfident about the state of their farm system and start liberally trading away their best prospects. It's great to be at or near the top of the heap, but the rules have changed and the competition for amateur and prospect talent is getting ever-fiercer. The Jays have a chance to be very good for a long time; let's not get too entranced with the next year or two.
85bluejay - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 10:31 AM EDT (#260171) #
I agree with you greenfrog - spend your prospects capital carefully - A top rated system can reach the bottom half pretty quickly & the new CBA makes it tougher to replenish - look at the Brewers
whiterasta80 - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 10:55 AM EDT (#260173) #

See I see it the other way. In my mind there's nothing wrong with being a bottom-half farm team if you ensure you are going to win during that time. The trick is just to strike while the iron is hot. For example, we were (or should have been at least) a bottom half farm system from like 1989 through the world series years. 

I'm not sure anyone is advocating selling the farm to run at the playoffs JUST this year. Feasibility aside I wouldn't, for instance, trade for Cole Hamels (who will almost certainly test free agency) or someone like Tim Hudson who may not have much left in the tank. Even Ryan Dempster scares me unless we are extending him or the cost is low.  On the other hand I would happily move Gose+ for Upton or Hech/Sanchez/ D'Arnaud for an extended Greinke or Felix.

uglyone - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 11:22 AM EDT (#260176) #
I'm a little more liberal with giving away prospects than most.

Most prospects bust, even the good ones. Even the elite ones bust probably half the time. Looking at the history of "impact player for group of good prospects" trades over the last 5-10 years, I think we find that the teams getting the impact players have overwhelmingly come out on top in those deals.

I like to try and keep it in the back of my head that even if we're very lucky, the odds of more than even one or two of our top-10 prospects becoming true impact players are fairly slim.
TamRa - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#260183) #
Which is why i said I'd do the deal.

Gose, for all his talent, has a ton of uncertainty, Hech might never hit as much as we'd like (though signs are encouraging)and Syndergaard falls under PPUF.

Folks can debate if Upton is REALLY that good (seems I recall very similar conversations when folks tried to talk themselves out of the idea that Rasmus would succeed before we ended up with him) which, I don't know what to think of so many convincing themselves a guy who's always been elite isn't really that big a deal.

But IF he is what he's cracked up to be, that deal is a slam dunk UMO.
TamRa - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 11:59 AM EDT (#260184) #
on the question of "need a starter"-

Sure, but if you rule out guys you can't keep past this year (at least not without committing the sort of money they had no intention of committing last winter) then that market is VERY thin.

There's no elite option out there, IMO.
Mike Green - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 12:16 PM EDT (#260190) #
There is no question. Upton right now is not a star, although there is the possibility that he could become one.  If one is suggesting that the Jays should make a trade of three relievers like they did in the case of Rasmus- let's say Oliver, Cordero and Frasor, it's a whole other kettle of fish from what is being talked about here.  Somehow I doubt that the D'Backs would be interested. 

The bottom line is that there really is not a match of interests between the D'Backs and the Jays.  Rasmus filled a very particular need for the club.  Gose and Marisnick were obviously not ready, and Rasmus presented the possibility of an immediate filling of a void in centerfield which would allow the club to legitimately wait and see how things develop with the other two players.  Upton does not do that for the the 2012 Jays. 

John Northey - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#260202) #
The d-backs do need a shortstop as their options are both well over 30 and hitting better than anyone expected thus likely to regress and at their ages are likely not to be elite defenders which their bats dictate they must be in order to justify playing them.  The Jays have two, one in the majors and one in AAA both with solid defense and one who has shown a good bat in the majors before while the other is still learning how to hit and improves each season.

Of course, the bigger question is what AA's scouts have told him about Upton and how the organization feels about the prospects that Arizona wants.  We're at the time that AA says 'if it hasn't happened it won't' (around 48 hours iirc) so I figure nothing is going on here.  Still hoping for the miracle trade with Seattle despite their insistence it won't happen.
Oceanbound - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#260204) #
Upton was 13th among MLB position players in WAR last season. How good does someone have to be to be a star?
92-93 - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#260208) #
"There is no question. Upton right now is not a star"

Upton finished 4th in MVP voting last year at 23. I guess Albert Pujols is not a star right now either.
Mike Green - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#260211) #
Boy.  A Shannon Stewart MVP argument.  Do we not understand that sometimes MVP voters do not fully appreciate context?  Do we also not understand that in evaluating a 24 year old in mid-season, we do not look at the 1/2 season just completed, the previous season, but the whole career to date?  He's a 116 corner outfielder so far.  A typical corner outfielder is about 110.

As for Upton's fangraphs WAR (fWAR) last year, he did very well according to UZR defensively, and fWAR uses UZR to calculate a player's defensive value.  Saying that Upton is a star because he had the 13th best fWAR last year is a lot like saying Brett Lawrie is the best player in baseball right now because he has the highest BBRef WAR (BBRef uses DRS rather than UZR to measure defence). 

92-93 - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 01:56 PM EDT (#260213) #
He was a 6 win player no matter which metric you use, and is generally praised for his above average corner OF defense.
Oceanbound - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 02:02 PM EDT (#260215) #
So I can't use fWAR here... why exactly? Lawrie's defensive metrics are exaggerated due to the RF shifts, that's not applicable to Upton.

Also, since 2009 Upton and a certain Curtis Granderson have compiled nearly identical WARs.
Hodgie - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#260216) #
Albert Pujols career stats after his age 24 season: 2728 PA 165 wRC+ 32.1 fWAR

Justin Upton career stats to date: 2733 PA 116 wRC+ 15.8 fWAR

Not even comparable.
John Northey - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 02:11 PM EDT (#260221) #
I think the Upton vs Pujols comment was more about how neither are having great years.  Although I think most have missed just how much Pujols has recovered from that horrid start.  Now up to a 122 OPS+ with a solid shot at his 12 straight 30 HR season and 12 year with 99+ RBI's.  To get to a 300 average will take a lot though (his previous worst is 299, this year at 268).

Pujols up through the game he hit his first AL home run vs the Jays on May 6th - 196/237/295 532 OPS
Pujols since the Angels left Toronto: 306/380/546 926 OPS+ (around a 150 OPS+)

Nice recovery eh?
whiterasta80 - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#260222) #
Which is why there is any hope of acquiring him.
Hodgie - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#260225) #
Perhaps I should have been a bit clearer in what I was stating then. Until this season, Pujols had performed at consistently high level each and every season since he entered the league and at 24 was firmly established as a legitimate star. Upton can make no such claims. One gets a fair amount of leash, the other needs to earn it still.
Magpie - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#260249) #
Pujols since the Angels left Toronto: 306/380/546 926 OPS+ (around a 150 OPS+)

You're welcome. Happy we could help.
scottt - Thursday, July 12 2012 @ 08:32 PM EDT (#260262) #
With respect to road splits, I like to recall how Crawford's bad numbers at Fenway have not changed with his jersey.

It's nice to have decent players at AAA. Otherwise, the team is one injury away from a black hole in the lineup.

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