Batter's Box Interactive Magazine

None of the starting pitchers you are familiar with at the top of the prospect chart pitched tonight. In each case these are the "Other Guys" - the ones who might have some talent but do their work in the shadow of more attention grabbing individuals.Still, in 3 of 4 outings, the Jays farm hands prevailed.

Las Vegas 6, Nashville 7

Tonight's starter for Las Vegas was Aaron Laffey. The guy who was supposed to be the fallback plan, but that turned out to be Jesse Chavez instead, so Laffey becomes the other Guy.I'll pause while you assume he probably gave up 5 runs or so in a completely unimpressive 7 innings. Which is what he did. For the sixth tine in nine games, he pretty much sucked. Nothing of note happened in relief, unless you wish to note Chad Beck's control issues continue.

At the top of the line-up, Anthony Gose was 3/5 with a double (he's riding an 8 game winning streak during which he's managed a 1.079 OPS) and Adam Lind homered for the 3rd time in five Las Vegas games, but the real star was Travis d'Arnaud. The #1 prospect He had two solo-shot homers in 4 at bats, and is hitting .357 in the last 10 games with 7 homers. Kid has found his stride.

New Hampshire 8, Portland 2

Yohan Pino never does well when called upon to fill in at AAA, and he's clearly too old to be even a sleeper at AA, but boy can he be a life saver for the Fisher Cats. The 28 year old Venezuelan RH has stumbled only once in 8 AA starts, and was looking to rebound from that stumble on Thursday. In his other seven starts, oh by the way, his ERA is a well deserved 2.35

On Thursday he turned in 7 innings and allowed 2 earned runs. Fernando Hernandez came on and pitched two shutout innings, allowing 2 hits.

Offensively, Ryan Goins continues to climb the ranks of the hitting leaders in the EL, going 3/5. Sean Ochinko likes the cooking in AA, going 2/4 with two doubles, meanwhile veteran infielder Brian Bocock shows his contempt for AA pitching by also going 3/5, including a two-run double.

Dunedin 4, Jupiter 3

Starter Sean Nolin, a prospect but still an “other guy” compared to the praise offered for Wojo and Stilson, was uncharacteristically wild on Thursday, in a game delayed by rain. He notched a season high 4 walks in 5.1 IP, but worked around 7 baserunners to allow a single earned run. Relievers Dayton Martze and rehabbing Stephen Marek allowed a run apiece to let the Hammerheads tie the score before the D-Jays rallied in the bottom of the 8th.

For the hitters, Jon Talley continues to roll, going 2/3 with a walk, but the straw in this game was Marcus Knecht, who's rebounding from a horrific April to post a terrific May (.912 OPS so far). He went 2/2 with a double and a home run and drew two walks.

The D-Jays have still not lost more than 2 in a row.

Lansing 5, Dayton 2

the Other Guy for the Lugnuts was Dave Rollins. As is his habit, he pitched 5 solid innings, gave up a single earned run, a struck out 4. Three relievers combined for 4 shutout innings after Rollins left the game.

Offensively, Chris Hawkins and Andy Burns each had three hits, one of Burns was a double KC Hobson was 1/2 but had 3 walks. Speaking of Burns, 60% of his hits in 2012 have been of the multi-base variety. His OPS over the last 10 games is 1.092 and other than an somewhat elevated K rate, shows no weakness in his game through 41 games.

Third Star: Sean Ochinko

Second Star: Marcus Knecht

First Star: Travis d'Arnaud

Posted by TamRa on Friday, May 25 2012 @ 01:59 AM EDT.

The Other Guys | 49 comments | Create New Account

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

PeteMoss - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 03:10 AM EDT (#256979) #

With D'Arnaud finding his groove... do you expect this off-season they'll move one of the catchers or have JPA and D'Arnaud share the role next year? The emergence of Gomes in the catcher mix adds a bit more intrigue to the situation.

Mike Green - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 08:55 AM EDT (#256981) #

Both of d'Arnaud's homers went the other way. Like JPA, d'Arnaud has serious power.

At some point, you could try to teach JPA or d'Arnaud to play some first base and then have JPA, d'Arnaud and Cooper (or Lind or McDade) covering both catching slots and first base. Against lefties, one starts both JPA and d'Arnaud, say at first base and at catcher. Against righties, one alternates JPA and d'Arnaud at catcher with Cooper (or Lind or McDade) getting the start. The nice thing about having McDade is you could use him as a late inning defensive substitute if he doesn't get the start. With Lind's struggles, the creative JPA/d'Arnaud option is more imminently practical than it was late last year.

Mike Green - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 08:58 AM EDT (#256982) #

Alternative title for today's column: The Other Man. No one abhors Sean Nolin though...

92-93 - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 09:00 AM EDT (#256983) #

Waste of value. If they are both good enough to be every day starting Cs, you HAVE to trade one of them. Arencibia's bat doesn't play at 1B (since he got "hot" he's still only hitting .304/.327/.549), regardless of whether or not Lind sucks. Sure, it's a really tough decision and one that ultimately doesn't need to be made until the offseason or into the 2013 season, but at some point you have to trust your scouts and make a value swap with one of them.

whiterasta80 - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 09:03 AM EDT (#256984) #

MG, it also helps that JPA has started to heat up, in April it made no sense to put him at 1B ever. If we stay in house with our solution to 1B, we could do alot worse than bringing up D'Arnaud, keeping Gomes up and rotating with JPA over 1B and C.

Unfortunately Lind has gone down to Vegas and probably earned himself another shot to suck at the major league level.

Mike Green - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 09:50 AM EDT (#256985) #

The question is what value does Arencibia have on the trade market. It may be high, or it might not be that great. He's got a career wRC+ of 90 and he is a below average defender. Maybe you can sell somebody on the idea that he's as good as A.J. Pierzynski was when the Twins traded him, in which case I agree that you ought to trade. I think that it's more likely that you will not be able to acquire anything of great significance.

If that's the case, by having him act as a first baseman against LHP (he's a career .245/.305/.510 against portsiders) and catching somewhat less than 1/2 time against RHP, you actually allow him to develop as a hitter and use his talents better. In the result, the better defender d'Arnaud catches about 100 games (or on pace for 100 games if it's midseason) and Arencibia catches 62 and gets about 40 starts at first base. Given that you want to give catchers time off anyway, it isn't such a big deal for their value if they start out that way.

China fan - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 09:56 AM EDT (#256986) #

"....Unfortunately Lind has gone down to Vegas and probably earned himself another shot to suck at the major league level...."

Perhaps true. And perhaps he will again suck, but it shouldn't be automatically assumed. There's a small (but non-zero) possibility that he could replicate the experience of Edwin Encarnacion, who rediscovered his swing in Vegas in 2010 and has steadily improved since then. A realistic prediction for Lind? Probably not, but worth monitoring.

whiterasta80 - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 10:25 AM EDT (#256988) #

That's fair CF... I couldn't possibly be more down on Lind than I am at the moment, but that was certainly true of EE in 2010 as well.

As for Arencibia, I don't think we'll get the value for him on the trade market that people think. I'll sign off on moving him if we are getting Garza in return, but if its Wandy or Dempster I'm not so sure. Besides it seemed to me that catching wore on him as the season went on last year. I really believe that lightening his load and allowing him to play the Napoli role could result in a surge in production.

PeteMoss - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 10:59 AM EDT (#256989) #

I'd suspect Arencibia has decent value... as he's cheap and at least a mid-tier catcher already. His defense isn't great but he's probably average or slightly below at this point. Offensively he's about middle of the pack this year - catchers as a whole are having pretty good years hitting wise

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=100&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0&sort=16,d

Mike Green - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 11:08 AM EDT (#256991) #

I'd use the 2011-2012 total numbers. As you can see, Arencibia is below the middle of the pack offensively and way below the middle defensively. Ryan Hanigan has been quite a bit better, as for that matter has been Pierzynski all these years later.

uglyone - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 11:10 AM EDT (#256992) #

EE was never as bad as lind was, for as long as lind was.

EE had one bad year in his career, the one in which he was traded, when he dropped all the way down to a .744ops. That was the worst year if his career, and the only one in which he dropped below a .787ops....and that one bad year was about as good as the 2nd best year of Lind's career.

uglyone - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 11:15 AM EDT (#256993) #

Mike i'm not sure you can use the first 600ab of a player's career on par with veteran players' stats in judging a player's offensive value....or at least you should be pointing out the fact that this is the guy's first 600 mlb at bats you're looking at.

zeppelinkm - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#256994) #

Arencibia also suffered that injury last year and had a brutal stretch of hitting, seemingly as the result of the injury. I suppose if you don't attribute any of that slump to his injury then the season carries more predictive value for his future performance. While his discipline is poor, I did like the way Arencibia seemed to adjust to outside pitches as the season on and became more content with trying to drop them into RF for a single, if it wasn't a really drivable pitch.

92-93 - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#256995) #

There will always be a GM willing to give up something worthwhile for a 26 year old C with 2 seasons of JP's production. He had 23 HR and 78 RBI last year and is on pace to do even better this year. And yes, I really think his "production" #s matter, in this case.

PeteMoss - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 12:11 PM EDT (#256996) #

More Changes as per Jon Morosi of FoxSports

#BlueJays add David Cooper and Ryota Igarashi to active roster. Ben Francisco DL, Evan Crawford optioned.

Mike Green - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#256997) #

I guess the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If someone is willing to trade a good package for Arencibia, the club ought to do it now. Sabean isn't in the market for a catcher and Reagins is gone, but youneverknow.

Mike Green - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 12:14 PM EDT (#256998) #

More Changes as per Jon Morosi of FoxSports

#BlueJays add David Cooper and Ryota Igarashi to active roster. Ben Francisco DL, Evan Crawford optioned.

A Cooper/Gomes platoon at first? It works for me. Igarashi for Crawford? Woo hoo.

hypobole - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 12:26 PM EDT (#256999) #

"what value does Arencibia have on the trade market. It may be high, or it might not be that great. He's got a career wRC+ of 90"

Am I the only one to find it odd to call stats "career" for a kid less than 2 months removed from his rookie season?

Mike Green - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 12:26 PM EDT (#257000) #

A propos of our discussion about Alvarez, I hadn't noticed what Derek Lowe has been doing this year with an infield that isn't half as good defensively as the Jays infield. He's walking 2.76/9, striking out 2.30 and has an ERA of 2.15. Now that's what I call unsustainable...

Ryan Day - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#257001) #

John Lott has an interesting article on the Lansing starters and their piggyback starts. LaCava won't go into details about the workload plans, beyond saying it extends into 2013, and that the organization has a unique development plan for each starter.

John Northey - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 12:35 PM EDT (#257002) #

I don't think it would be a waste of value to have both JPA and d'Arnaud in the majors at the same time if both can be everyday catchers.

Why? Because if you use one as a DH and the other behind the plate each game (Gomes the backup, also backs up 1B/3B) then you have two solid offensive and defensive catchers who keep their bats fresh and their bodies fresh. Catchers need many days off as is - it is hard to get 130+ games out of one without risking injury. They traditionally get hurt a lot or have nagging injuries. Giving each 81 games behind the plate rather than 130 could seriously extend both players careers and improve how they play when they do.

Back in the 50's/60's the Yankees (on one of the best stretches of all time) did this with Yogi Berra and Elston Howard with once catching and the other in LF normally.

Games started behind the plate...
1955: B 141 H 4
1956: B 134 H 19
1957: B 116 H 26
1958: B 87 H 64
1959: B 112 H 41
1960: B 53 H 80
1961: B 15 H 106
1962: B 28 H 124
1963: B 32 H 128

Normally there was a third who'd start 5-20 games. I was a bit surprised it wasn't a closer mix, as initially Berra was catching while Howard was in LF, then in 58 they split more evenly for 3 years before Berra moved to LF. A mix of one of the best ever in Berra and a near HOF level player in Howard (maybe HOF if not for military service & being a backup rather than regular - 20% his peak in HOF voting).

A more even split might have allowed both to player longer but we are talking HOF level talents here - could this mix have helped both? Impossible to say for certain.

As to our two, not Berra & Howard level (obviously) but both are solid potentially and properly mixed could make the Jays a much stronger team. I'd love to see a manager do that, alternate days with 2 catchers to allow both regular playing time to maximize health. Both should have 100+ OPS+'s which is OK for a DH (not great, not a disaster) and if it adds to their offense when catching (due to health, etc.) then all the better.

Mike Green - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#257003) #

You know the bit about players on average improving until age 27 and then declining afterwards. It doesn't really apply to catchers, who, on average, do not improve (likely because of the increased risk of mild to moderate injury which affects performance). It is true that a GM might see Arencibia and imagine a player with serious power who "has the ability to learn the strike zone better", and hit .260-.270 consistently and be a "solid offensive contributor". In which case, you have a match.

Personally, I think that is more likely that other GMs will be skeptical and the best way to both maximize value and increase the club's chance of winning is to utilize Arencibia differently, but I certainly have been wrong (many times) before. The Wells deal would be the classic example of that.

tstaddon - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#257004) #

Hmm... something else must have happened. We were at a full 40 on the roster before Igarashi was on it. Perhaps McGowan to the 60-Day DL?

Mike Green - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 12:44 PM EDT (#257005) #

John's comment is a good one, and you could certainly use the DH slot rather than first base to divvy up the workload.

PeteMoss - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 01:30 PM EDT (#257006) #

Hi - that's the move... McGowan to the 60 day DL.

China fan - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 02:00 PM EDT (#257007) #

"....EE was never as bad as lind was, for as long as lind was...."

Very true. On the other hand, EE has never had a season anywhere as good as Lind's best season. Not that I think Lind could ever reproduce that again, but he would be a good hitter if he could get within even 100 points of his peak OPS.

John Northey - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#257008) #

Lind's big year is clearly a career year. Every player has them, although some get them in the minors thus we never notice. Lind's 141 OPS+ was 40 points above any other ML season (not counting his 65 PA first look). His career 104 OPS+ is higher than any season other than those 2 as well. That one year really skewed his stats.

Encarnacion on the other hand has ranged from a 91 & 93 (trade year and rookie season) to 101-109 OPS+ for 5 seasons other than this one. His 141 this year (so far) is his career year and to expect him to duplicate it in 2013 and beyond (age 30+) is risky. Yes, Bautista did do that, but he is the exception by a landslide. If the Jays do keep EE around then they need to budget based on him being a 100-110 OPS+ hitter who might decline to 95-105 over the next few years, not on him continuing to be a 140+ OPS+ hitter.

That was the big mistake with Lind - he tricked the Jays due to his great call-up, 1 bad year, 1 mediocre, then a 141 OPS+. It looked like a steady growth - 77 to 101 to 141 OPS+ but it was a valley, above average, peak combo instead followed by 2 years in the low 90's and this disaster.

Now, given the Jays have millions sunk into Lind over the next couple of years it makes sense to try to get him to recover but I'd leave him in AAA for a long time to ensure he seems to have figured out something then if anyone comes knocking asking for him let him go (ala Wells).

greenfrog - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#257010) #

Good for Cooper - gotta be happy for the guy. I hope he goes on a tear and somehow manages to stay in the majors.

Have Cooper and Gomes had significant L/R splits in the minors? Gomes had a significant split this year (SSS alert), raking against RHPs, while Cooper has a much less pronounced one. Not sure how their splits look in previous years.

finch - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#257011) #

3 Blue Jays prospects that top BA's Prospect Hot Sheet:

No. 3 TRAVIS D'ARNAUD, C
BLUE JAYS

Team: Triple-A Las Vegas (Pacific Coast)
Age: 23
Why He's Here: .417/.462./1.083 (10-for-24), 8 R, 1 2B, 5 HR, 8 RBIs, 2 BB, 3 SO
The Scoop: After clubbing a career-high 21 home runs in the Eastern League in 2011, d'Arnaud did not display that power during April, going deep just twice with a .424 slugging percentage. He has taken advantage of the hitter-friendly environment at Las Vegas in May, as attested to by his batting line above. D'Arnaud now is batting .298/.360/.534 on the season. With the Blue Jays receiving league-average offensive output from their big league catchers, d'Arnaud has been tasked with improving defensively to fulfill his all-star potential.

No. 7 ANTHONY GOSE, CF
BLUE JAYS

Team: Triple-A Las Vegas (Pacific Coast)
Age: 21
Why He's Here: .448/.515/.655 (13-for-29), 4 2B, 1 3B, 5 R, 1 RBI, 3 BB, 4 SO, 3-for-3 SB
The Scoop: Gose fits the modern-day paradigm for a major league center fielder. He's a plus runner, a rangy defender, has a bit of power . . . and he completes the picture with plenty of swinging and missing. Think Drew Stubbs, Austin Jackson, B.J. Upton, (Blue Jays organization-mate) Colby Rasmus, Cameron Maybin and Chris Young. However, Gose's raw speed could be a separator for him in the outfield and on the basepaths. He previously won stolen-base crowns in the South Atlantic (in 2009) and Eastern leagues (last year), and now he leads the Pacific Coast League with 17 steals in 20 attempts. With 50 whiffs thus far, Gose also ranks among the PCL leaders in that category—after ranking second in the EL last year. At least that provides him with an obvious area for improvement—and if he does, well Rasmus will have to watch his back.

No. 11 ADEINY HECHAVARRIA, SS
BLUE JAYS

Team: Triple-A Las Vegas (Pacific Coast)
Age: 23
Why He's Here: .423/.500/.692 (11-for-26), 1 HR, 2 2B, 1 3B, 6 R, 5 RBIs, 4 BB, 2 SO, 1-for-2 SB
The Scoop: Granted, the PCL is a hitter-friendly league, but Hechavarria is playing his way to at least a cup of coffee in September. He's now hitting .344/.395/.495 in 305 at-bats at Las Vegas during the past two seasons. Signed out of Cuba for a club-record $4 million in 2010, Toronto gave him a major league contract primarily based on his defense and speed. Scouts believe Hechavarria will hit for average because of his hands and swing path, but his biggest hurdle is a lack of plate discipline. He's drawn a walk in just 5.6 percent of his career plate appearances.

Surprised there's no pitchers.

MatO - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 02:52 PM EDT (#257013) #

Don't know about Gomes but Cooper has had no significant platoon differential the the last 2 seasons at AAA.

greenfrog - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#257014) #

Chad Mottola has to be pleased - three Vegas hitters on the Hot Sheet, Snider raking prior to his injury, Gomes and Cooper promoted...it certainly looks good on the hitting coach.

uglyone - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#257015) #

Excited to see if Igarashi can finally conquer his MLB-only control problems.

And nice to see Coop get another shot. He deserves it based on last year at least, even if he hasn't had a great year this year so far.

China fan - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#257018) #

Cooper hasn't posted the numbers that he did last year. But he's still sporting an OBP of .378 this season. If he can at least get on base for the Jays, and hit the occasional double or two, he'd be an improvement over Lind's performance at least. Probably not a long-term solution, but perhaps a stopgap, especially if Gomes can keep hitting.

Anders - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#257019) #

I'm sure the Jays plan for their tandem starters is quite detailed, and if they are somewhat reliant on pitching together maybe it's not easily altered, but at some point they are going to have to promote Sanchez (and to a lesser extent Nicolino). Sanchez is walking guys, I guess, and I'm sure he's helped out by only going through the order once or twice, but he's allowed 10 hits in 31 innings, with 38 strikeouts. Nicolino has a 10/1 K/BB ratio, and in the same number of innings has allowed 4 earned runs, to Sanchez's 2. At a certain point it's probably not worth it for them to be there.

China fan - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 03:31 PM EDT (#257021) #

If it's going to be Gomes and Cooper sharing the 1B job for a while, it's worth taking a closer look at Gomes and whether he might actually be more than just a utility guy in the future. There's an excellent analysis by Guy Spurrier of the Post, arguing that Gomes might have some specific weaknesses as a hitter, but he still deserves a chance to prove himself. An excerpt:

"With only 1,006 at-bats at six minor league levels, he (Gomes) might not be a fully formed player yet.... After 1,000 minor-league at-bats, Colby Rasmus was still in Double-A."

Here's a link to the Spurrier analysis, which is well worth a read:

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/05/24/blue-jays-yan-gomes-has-unique-opportunity/

Dave Rutt - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 04:14 PM EDT (#257023) #

I don't think it would be a waste of value to have both JPA and d'Arnaud in the majors at the same time if both can be everyday catchers.

Why? Because if you use one as a DH and the other behind the plate each game

I agree with 92-93 on this one. Sure, you could have two catchers playing every day by using the DH spot, but you could easily find a bat-only type player that would give you similar production from the DH spot. In which case you could trade one catcher and get a valuable piece. A catcher who can hit has value, while a bat-only player like Luke Scott doesn't and is therefore easily acquirable. So if you have two starting catchers, you can trade one, without much hurting the offensive output of your team, and getting something valuable in return.

Mike Green - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#257024) #

...except this way, you don't get 40-50 games a year with a Jeff Mathis quality bat. In other words, catching is not like any other position. Most catchers do not get 140-150 catching games a year. And, in terms of long-term value, there does seem to be a total mileage issue. So, for instance, when the Yankees brought up Posada, he caught 60, 99 and 109 games his first three seasons, and it allowed him to develop and he was able to sustain good offensive performance for a long time.

lexomatic - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#257026) #

So, for instance, when the Yankees brought up Posada, he caught 60, 99 and 109 games his first three seasons, and it allowed him to develop and he was able to sustain good offensive performance for a long time.

I'm not arguing the above, but I seem to recall a whole lotta "Free Posada" type hand wringing from BP at the time. First, that he should've been called up earlier, and then that Girardi (range 60-85 OPS+ in the late 90s).
That's close enough to Mathis for my tastes.
Posada was not the best example (though I can't think of a better one off-hand).

scottt - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 05:59 PM EDT (#257028) #

The main advantage of having 2 full time catchers is is that you worry less about injuries.

Ideally, the starting 9 are all good hitters, but it's better to have depth than to depend on everyone being healthy.

Personally, I like seeing some platoons and a good use of the bench.

JPA is hitting better than Napoli, just not getting on base as much.

92-93 - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#257032) #

Arencibia has played a minimum of 115 games every year since he was drafted in 2007, and that was typically in a 5 month schedule. There's no reason not to expect him to be able to handle 125+ starts a year. And with a guy like that you don't need a backup better than Jeff Mathis/Yan Gomes.

92-93 - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 07:51 PM EDT (#257034) #

Miguel Montero being off the FA market is a good thing for a team looking to shop a C. Outside of Napoli next year's pickings are slim.

Dave Rutt - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#257036) #

...except this way, you don't get 40-50 games a year with a Jeff Mathis quality bat.

That's the downside, but I still think the benefits of trading one (assuming the two-legit-starting-catchers scenario, at which point we are not, yet) outweigh the costs. Sometimes your backup is Jeff Mathis. Sometimes it's José Molina 2011!

Dave Rutt - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 09:30 PM EDT (#257038) #

Also, Mike, I'm not sure if you're implying that the gentle increase of Posada's playing time is what enabled him to have a long and productive career, but if so, I take issue with that.

TamRa - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 09:33 PM EDT (#257039) #

"Arencibia's bat doesn't play at 1B (since he got "hot" he's still only hitting .304/.327/.549)"

Point of order:

That set of slash-stats would have ranked JPA as the 7th best hitting 1B in the majors in 2011 - half way between Konerko and Texeria.

Not that I think JPA will ever hit that well over a full season, but when you say "his bat won't play at 1B" following it with that stat citation doesn't really support the point.

------------------------------
"That was the big mistake with Lind - "

I still don't think Lind WAS that bad a hitter up until 2010.

sometimes baseball players just "lose it", inexplicably, for no discernible reason. There may well have been some fundamental flaw that means the 141 was unsustainable (very few sustain that level anyway) but to get THAT bad for THAT long (basically ever since April 2010 save 10 or so great weeks early in 2011) has to be something changed.

Nothing in his development before 2010 pointed to being anything like THIS bad. (or to being as good as he was in 2009)

Spitballing, I think it's reasonable to have assumed in 2008 that his ceiling was a .800-.850 OPS guy who'd plod along at that good-but-not-great level for 5-6 years then fade n his early 30's.

But both 2009, and what came after, both defined that. A long way of saying that everyone knows it's irrational to ever think he was going to ever as good as 141, but it makes even less sense to have thought he would be a sub-100 guy either.

I think he is just one of those rare guys who "lost something"

What's weird is that Aaron Hill seems to be very much in the same boat and to have that happen to two teammates is freaky.

Mike Green - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#257040) #

Also, Mike, I'm not sure if you're implying that the gentle increase of Posada's playing time is what enabled him to have a long and productive career, but if so, I take issue with that.

With the game being in major colour commentary territory, what better time for a discussion of catcher career paths? I am saying that the gradual work-up of catcher playing time is probably beneficial for their careers. The two important characteristics of the position are a much greater risk of injury than any other position and significant and varied defensive demands. Gradual work-ups reduce the risk of injury in the early stages of a catcher's career. It means that a new catcher is less likely to be tired when learning important refined skills which reduce the risk of injury. Of course, there are players who started out catching 140+ games and had long productive careers as catchers (Bob Boone and Gary Carter are two). Many more, though, did not.

Mike Green - Friday, May 25 2012 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#257041) #

In good news, d'Arnaud just popped his 10th homer to go along with a single and a lineout. En fuego. .

uglyone - Saturday, May 26 2012 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#257057) #

personally I'd keep both D'Arnaud and JPA until one of them really sets themselves apart as a frontline catcher.

no rush to move one of them, IMO, even if in a coupla years we might want to.

greenfrog - Saturday, May 26 2012 @ 03:53 PM EDT (#257061) #

Yes, exactly. Let the cream rise to the crop (and demonstrate durability), then maybe make a move.

vw_fan17 - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#257243) #

What's weird is that Aaron Hill seems to be very much in the same boat and to have that happen to two teammates is freaky.

I would disagree with this. Aaron Hill, after departing the Jays, has quietly put together a very good 300 AB for the Diamondbacks:
285/360/447 - 807 OPS in 333 PA (OPS+ of 116). Man, that 360 OBP sure would look good here..

Sure, last year was a bit better, but even this year, he has an OPS+ of 102.

Kelly Johnson's, for all his "great hitting" as actually done a bit WORSE for the Jays: 110 OPS+ in 2011, 117 this year (combined 114). Sure, AL East may be tougher, but you can't say that he's head and shoulders above Hill.

His slash line is: 266/361/434 - OPS of 796 in 333 PA (OPS+ of 114).

Seems like both players just needed a change of scenery..

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