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Breaking News Left Field Decided... For Now
Travis Snider has been send down to AAA, thus leaving LF to Eric Thames.

Edit: Dustin McGowan has a new 2 + 1 year deal - 2013/2014 guaranteed ($1.5 per year) plus an option year in 2015 at $4 mil.

Via the Star Snider seems to be taking it as well as one could hope. Still, this had to hurt for him and makes it hard to see where he would play unless Encarnacion or Lind are traded.

Edit: On a side note: Forbes has its annual valuations out and the Jays are 25th out of 30. Closer to #18 than #27 though as the groups are more like... Billionaires club (Yankees/Dodgers/Red Sox), Cubbies (800's), Very Big Market (Phillies, Mets), Big Market (Rangers, Angels, Giants), Very Large (White Sox, Cardinals, Mariners, Astros), Large (Twins, Atlanta, Nationals, Tigers), Medium (Rockies, Orioles, Padres, Marlins, Brewers, D-Backs, Reds, Jays, Cleveland, Tiny (Royals, Pirates, Rays, A's). To shift from one category to another is possible but Tiny to Medium will take a lot it seems ($60 mil between groups). Jays jumped by 23% which is a lot as only 4 teams did better, 3 were within a couple of points then the Dodgers who jumped 75%.
Posted by John Northey on Sunday, March 25 2012 @ 09:44 PM EDT.
Left Field Decided... For Now | 141 comments | Create New Account
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ColiverPhD - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 08:12 AM EDT (#253156) #

Immediate thoughts regarding Snyder's demotion:

1.  Thames did a good job last year, was much more consistent than Snyder was, and a demotion to Thames at this point would be counterproductive.  He has done nothing to warrant a trip to AAA.

2.  What bothers me is that Snyder would be more helpful to the Blue Jays than Francisco (Snyder can play all three OF positions, can end a game with one swing of the bat, etc).  I mentioned these items the other day and do not want to be redundant.  Snyder has a greater ceiling than Fransisco.  Also, like Thames, Snyder has nothing left to prove in AAA.

3.  I hope this does not become a Toronto-Vegas shuttle between the two.  That is the last thing both players need.

Not a good move.  AA should have kept both players and took Francisco off the 25-man roster.  Give Snyder kudos for handling the situation with dignity.

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Mike Green - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 09:43 AM EDT (#253160) #
The club apparently:
  • believes Encarnacion and Thames are better hitters right now than Snider
  • wishes to give Lind one more chance in light of his contract situation
  • does not believe a part-time role would be best for Snider's development

None of these views are obviously wrong.  It is not what I would do, but you can see the reasoning.

Las Vegas is going to run out an outfield of Snider, Gose and Sierra with Hechavarria at short and D'Arnaud catching.  There is the depth to make changes if the opportunity or need arises.  And there is obviously a need at the back end of the rotation. 



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85bluejay - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 09:55 AM EDT (#253161) #

I support this decision - Thames has done enough to keep his job - both Snider & Thames have said it's difficult to be consistent when playing part-time,so I don't want either as bench players and the Jays have made it clear that EE & Lind are playing everyday - I have been impressed by how seriously Thames has taken his career, from finding a program (yoga) that has kept him on the field the last 2 years, to working this pass offseason to improve his defensive shortcomings.

Snider is likely the more talented player and if he's as good as most posters think, will eventually establish himself in the League even if it's with another team.I have no complaints with how the Jays FO handled the situation this spring.    

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greenfrog - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#253162) #
I agree with 85BJ. AA also needs to make the most of his assets. If Thames can establish himself as a productive major-leaguer, he could be a useful trade chip (or become a long-term solution in LF for the Jays). He would have less value as a 25-year-old raking in the PCL.

If Snider plays well at AAA and the mechanical changes stick, he'll be back in the majors before too long, either with the Jays or another team. I would like to see him beating down the door the way Lawrie did last year.

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John Northey - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#253163) #
Y'know, one wonders if there are multiple things at play here (well, there always is but...)

1) Snider gets playing time as does Thames as neither are a finished product so to speak

2) Encarnacion is on his last year and the Jays would probably like to trade him at some point (get nada for him unless he pulls a Bautista and becomes worth over $12 mil a year) and being benched or platooned makes him untradable (at least for anything of value)

3) Lind is entering his option years so the Jays need to either see him play well enough to be worth those options or need to cut bait.

4) Those were obvious, less obvious is the effect in AAA. If Snider/Gose/Sierra can form a killer AAA outfield (and they should) then that could help the Jays get a better AAA deal in the next off-season and possibly move back to the International League and a sane ballpark. Same with the pitching staff - if the planned 5 can stick then by mid-season you'll see tons of pressure on the pitchers in Vegas from the AA guys, and by mid-season a flipping of the staff might be needed given the shellshock that place can give one.
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Mike Green - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 10:27 AM EDT (#253164) #
In 1985, the Blue Jays clean-up hitter was first baseman Willie Upshaw, while Jesse Barfield batted eighth.  I suspect that I will be constantly reminding myself of that this year, with Eric Thames filling the Barfield role (offensively). 
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greenfrog - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 10:42 AM EDT (#253165) #
EE definitely has reason to be motivated. If he has a career year he could be in line for a nice contract next off-season. But I don't see the Jays getting a lot for him at the deadline (a couple of months of a 1B/DH with a career OPS of 789 just isn't worth that much, especially now that teams are valuing their prospects so highly). Although I suppose he could be part of a larger package that nets a better overall return.
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ColiverPhD - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 11:14 AM EDT (#253166) #
I just don't see Francisco in Toronto over Snyder.   McCoy could be the backup infielder / fifth outfielder.  His bat may not be as big as Francisco's but he is much more versatile.  Then the Blue Jays could keep both Thames (as the #1 LF) and Snyder (who can get starts in all three OF spots as well as PH work).  A better hitting bench, more versitility in late-inning situations...just seems to make sense.
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Mike Green - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#253167) #
The big reason for the increase in franchise revenue was local TV revenue.  Here are the 2011 average audience figures for the American clubs.  Leading the pack are the Yankees with 319,000 households and the Phillies with 276,000 households; every other club has less than 200,000 households.  The Blue Jays had 507,000 viewers.  Presumably there are fewer than 2.5 viewers per household on average, so this means that the Blue Jays had (at minimum) the 3rd largest "local" TV viewership.
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Jonny German - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#253168) #
Please stop saying Snyder. Man's name is Snider.
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Mike Green - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#253169) #
Ack, the Blue Jay viewership link is here.
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ayjackson - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 12:06 PM EDT (#253170) #
The club apparently:
  • believes Encarnacion and Thames are better hitters right now than Snider
  • wishes to give Lind one more chance in light of his contract situation
  • does not believe a part-time role would be best for Snider's development

None of these views are obviously wrong.  It is not what I would do, but you can see the reasoning.

They've had sound reasoning for every decision they've made with Snider over the past four years.  And I've largely agreed with the majority of them.  I'm willing to admit, I was wrong.  The sum of the decisions amounts to a hatchet job on the development of our most prized prospect since Carlos Delgado.

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Mike Green - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#253171) #
Fair enough.  "Hatchet job" is probably a little strong.  While the decision-making was sub-optimal, part of Snider's difficulty was the wrist injury after that terrific at-bat (it seems hard to believe that this was almost two years ago). 
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ColiverPhD - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#253173) #
Many apologies Jonny
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ayjackson - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 12:27 PM EDT (#253174) #

"Hatchet job" is probably a little strong

Definitely.  Just wanted to reflect my current level of frustration.  Usually I'm not fussed by the decisions of the club.  I have a lot of confidence in them.  I just don't like this.

And injuries have played a role with his development as well.

I feel bad for Travis.  He's such a good kid and probably has needed a little more support than he has received for a variety of reasons.

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Magpie - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 01:15 PM EDT (#253178) #
They've had sound reasoning for every decision they've made with Snider over the past four years.

For the most part, sure. I'd quarrel with that in regard to what I see as the Original Sin, the quite out of the blue promotions to AAA and then the majors in late 2008. That will never make sense to me. But while I certainly didn't like the decision to farm him out last year, I thought there was a rational argument to be made.

But hey - they screwed around plenty with Carlos Delgado, too. He turned out okay. Delgado ended up playing 680 minor league games before the Jays stuck him into the lineup to stay. Snider's not even close to that figure yet. And while Snider is certainly the most hyped hitting prospect the organization has produced since Delgado, I don't think (and never did) that he was ever likely to be that good. I still think Adam Dunn-lite is his upside.
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John Northey - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#253180) #
Mike - very interesting figures for TV audience. Washington coming dead last is nice to see (as an Expos fan). 29,000 households per game - pretty pathetic especially when you factor in the massive hype around some of their top prospects and the like. The US Census seems to say 2.62 people per household based on what I could find, so the numbers work out to (if you assume all 2.62 people are watching, which would be a faulty assumption as I'm sure a few cases exist of one person watching while the others stay far away, but lets inflate the numbers)...

835,780 New York Yankees
723,120 Philadelphia
---
507,000 Blue Jays
---
503,040 Boston
427,060 New York Mets
332,740 San Francisco

Bottom 6
86,460 Houston
86,460 Kansas City
83,840 Florida
81,220 Baltimore
81,220 Oakland
75,980 Washington

So for TV rights the Jays, in theory, should be worth more than the Red Sox but less than the Yankees & Phillies. However, if the Jays make the playoffs it is a safe bet that 507k figure will jump and could easily pass the Yanks & Phillies. But you also have to consider alternatives on TV - the sports networks in Canada get high ratings for the dumbest things (poker for example) so the 'need' to have baseball is lower thus the net value goes down a bit vs the ultra-competitive US market. Still, the market valuation of the Jays is low if you factor in the current & potential TV market I would think.
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92-93 - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 01:27 PM EDT (#253181) #
I care less about the franchise's overall value and more about its reported operated income, which explains why MLB is taking away revenue sharing from the Blue Jays and legitimizes all the talk this offseason about the Blue Jays being cheap.
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John Northey - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#253188) #
No argument on the Jays having more than enough revenue to afford whatever they want. Darvish should've been chased harder, but he is about it for free agents (or sorta-free agents) that the Jays should've chased down given the costs involved. The cost for Fielder & Pujols (in years) was far too high imo and most others were either not good enough (ie: slight upgrades but not drastic ones) or appeared uninterested in coming to Toronto.

I think this year will be telling. From the regular season when we get to see a few of the hyped prospects break in, to the post season when we'll see if the Jays address the major issues. If there is a clear hole, if the team is in eyeshot at seasons end, and the team still doesn't address it then I feel we'll have hit the point where strong complaints are justified. Yu seemed ideal as he'd be here for his prime years and would 'only' cost cash and as a pitcher could always (if a disaster) be shifted to the pen or the 5 hole in the rotation. Fielder would've been prime for 2-3 years but then could've become a nightmare for the team (regardless of AA's ability to find the 'bigger idiot').

Like I said though, these next 12 months will tell the tale and let us know if AA will be fated to become a GM in the mold of Ash/JP (no playoffs, fans try to forget him afterwards) or another Gillick.
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92-93 - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 02:16 PM EDT (#253189) #
The contracts handed out this winter weren't that crazy, aside from the long term deals given to Pujols & Fielder. The Jays could have added talent at market value without compromising their ability to turn a handsome profit.
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whiterasta80 - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 03:09 PM EDT (#253195) #

See I disagree with that 92-93. I don't necessarily want us going after middling talent via free agency. That's how you end up paying Jason Werth twice as much as Jose Bautista.  That's how AJ Burnett gets as much as Roy Halladay, or BJ Ryan gets the highest closer contract in history. We didn't have specific needs other than 1B and SP2

Darvish, Pujols and Prince (and maybe Reyes who was never coming) were the guys to go after this year. The only one who represents value is Reyes and he gave Miami a discount.  Failing to obtain one of those 4 I think you save your money for another day. 

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greenfrog - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#253196) #
Agree that Darvish was the one to go after, for reasons of age, risk (total cost and contract length much less than those given to Fielder and Pujols), lack of draft compensation, team need (most of the Jays' better SP prospects are a long ways away), and denying Yu's services to a key competitor (Texas). If indeed Beeston expects the Jays to both spend money and be competitive over the next five years, then Yu would have been the perfect fit.

However, I still think the Jays can be successful without him, especially if they're willing to spend money (and do so wisely) - it just decreases the odds of making the playoffs in the short term and/or while Bautista is in his prime.
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PeteMoss - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#253197) #

The big reason for the increase in franchise revenue was local TV revenue. Here are the 2011 average audience figures for the American clubs. Leading the pack are the Yankees with 319,000 households and the Phillies with 276,000 households; every other club has less than 200,000 households. The Blue Jays had 507,000 viewers. Presumably there are fewer than 2.5 viewers per household on average, so this means that the Blue Jays had (at minimum) the 3rd largest "local" TV viewership.

You wonder how the games on Sportnet One drag the Jays total down as well.
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PeteMoss - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 04:05 PM EDT (#253198) #
Not sure if he's a great source, but Jim Bowden on twitter has mentioned the Jays have extended Dustin McGowan for 2 years plus an option.

https://twitter.com/#!/JimBowdenESPNxm/status/184365228778201088
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robertdudek - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#253199) #
Who has a better team right now - Las Vegas or Houston?

The Blue Jays should trade Snider at this point, except they have done a great job destroying most of his trade value.

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robertdudek - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#253200) #
That's how AJ Burnett gets as much as Roy Halladay, or BJ Ryan gets the highest closer contract in history. We didn't have specific needs other than 1B and SP2

At the time Ryan was considered one of the top 5 relief pitchers in baseball - not a middling talent at all. That said, I would never pay that much for any closer except possibly if his initials were M.R. and he was from Panama.
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China fan - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 04:14 PM EDT (#253201) #
I think it's Travis Snider who's done the most to destroy his trade value. Blaming the Jays for all of his woes is getting a little tiresome.
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John Northey - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#253202) #
It would make sense, signing McGowan for 2 years if the money is extremely low (ie: $1-2 mil per year max) or if they are team option years. Right now the Jays have a lot of time invested in McGowan and he is a free agent post-2012 (over 5 years experience already, can't be sent down so 6 years+ is a lock unless released). To invest more time and effort into him it just makes sense to lock him in for at least 2013 and ideally 2014 if there is a reasonable shot at him being effective.
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greenfrog - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 04:24 PM EDT (#253203) #
Snider will get another chance to establish himself as a productive big-leaguer. He just turned 24. There are lots of good outfielders who didn't really get untracked until their age-24 or 25 seasons. His value hasn't been destroyed - it's just going to take some time to rebuild (perhaps like that of Ricky Romero, whom many viewed as a writeoff when he was 24).
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China fan - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 04:31 PM EDT (#253204) #
The McGowan contract extension is $1.5-million for 2013 and the same amount for 2014, plus a $4-million club option for 2015. Pretty reasonable deal, I would say, unless he totally flames out. And if he pitches well, it's a bargain for the team. Total guaranteed investment of just $3-million for a pitcher who could -- if all goes well -- be a fixture in the team's rotation.
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Gerry - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#253205) #

There have been mixed reports on McGowan out of spring training.   The Jays must like what they have seen because otherwise this extension is very risky.  Why extend a pitcher who hasn't been healthy in several years?  The only reason is that you expect him to be a contributor through 2014.

This is a gutsy move by the Jays.

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PeteMoss - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 04:57 PM EDT (#253206) #
Its 1.5 million/year over 2 years... $1 million over the minimum salary. Really not much of a risk. Just insurance in case he comes back strong... don't want to lose him after paying him for years to rehab.
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Mike Green - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#253207) #
It's an interesting low-level gamble (supposing that Bowden has it right).  I approve.

I would be surprised to see McGowan up with the big club before April 21, as there is need for the #5 starter to pitch only once before then and you would want him to be on a regular schedule anyways because of his diabetes.  Dunedin opens up its schedule on April 5, and so there is time for a rehab start or three there. 
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85bluejay - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#253208) #

I like the McGowan deal - risky but potentially 4 years for 7.4 mil including 2012 - An immediate benefit is that it allows the team/McGowan to go slow with his comeback, if he has to spend extra time on the DL or be shut down early, he's not worrying about his contract status next year and if he pitches well  & is healthy the next 2 years I could see the Jays moving him for the last 2 yrs with a reasonable contract.

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robertdudek - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#253209) #
I think it's Travis Snider who's done the most to destroy his trade value. Blaming the Jays for all of his woes is getting a little tiresome.

I would agree with you if he had ever been given more than 3 weeks to get out of a slump before being benched or sent down.

It is not a productive way to treat a potential star - what ought to have been done is to give him 550 PA in a season and then reevaluate on that basis.
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85bluejay - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 05:06 PM EDT (#253210) #

Blaming the Jays for all of his woes is getting a little tiresome.

Well said.

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dan gordon - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 05:07 PM EDT (#253211) #

Not only has McGowan not been healthy for a long time, he's not healthy right now.  He came out of his start early yesterday with a sore foot, and Slam has an article saying that the podiatrist indicated he has plantar fasciitis.  They're saying he's day-to-day, but this is a condition which can linger for months, and in some cases, years.  I'd have wanted to make sure he was over this new problem, and see him in a few games during the season before signing him to an extension.  Sure, you're going to pay a bit more if he looks good, but I just think this might be a case of throwing good money after bad.  Hey, I hope he makes it back.  The guy's been through so much and it was great to see him in a few games last year, but I still regard him as a long shot to A) pitch effectively, and B) avoid further injury.

The Snider demotion doesn't seem like a big deal to me.  He's a young guy trying to make it as a big league regular.  As of now, the Jays prefer Thames in LF, EE as DH and Lind at 1B.  Let's see Snider go to LV and show them what he can do.  If he hits up a storm, he's only a phone call away.

With McGowan's latest injury problem, and the weak outings of Cecil and Laffey last time out, are they going to be looking more closely at Drabek?  Right now, after Romero, Morrow and Alvarez, the Jays rotation is kind of up in the air. 

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Mike Green - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#253212) #
Drabek gets the start tomorrow night against the Yankees.  I imagine that the club will open the season with Romero, Morrow, Cecil, Alvarez and Drabek.
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Magpie - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#253213) #
The Blue Jays should trade Snider at this point

Why?

Just on general principle, I'm never wild about the idea of trading anybody for that purpose alone - I think a trading strategy should always focus on what you're trying to obtain. I don't think you start with the idea that you want to get rid of someone.

I'd certainly trade Snider if there was something I really wanted, if Snider was the price that had to be paid, and if I thought the price was worth the reward. But that aside - why? Because we're impatient? Because we thought he'd be an all-star by now and we're irritated that he isn't? Did anyone want to trade Delgado after his age 23 season, when his career MLB numbers were .194/.300/.378?
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85bluejay - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#253214) #
In addition to Drabek, Hutchinson is still in camp and if he pitches well,then would the Jays gamble on him? The team has really talked him up in the offseason  
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Mike Green - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 05:28 PM EDT (#253215) #
I agree, Magpie, about the general principle about trading for someone.  One exception is, of course, the clubhouse cancer (here's looking at you, Jeremy).  Snider most definitely does not fit that bill.  The other may be the kindness offered to a veteran player who is of little use to a non-contending team, and has little trading value, but is traded to a contending team at the tail end of a career as a gesture of respect and loyalty for the player.  That also does not apply to Snider.
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robertdudek - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#253216) #
The Blue Jays should trade Snider at this point

Why?

Delgado had only played 82 games in the majors at that point and had been working on trying to catch during much of his time in the minors (which slows development). Snider never caught during the minors and has played 232 games in the majors. Two completely different cases, so I wish you would retire the Delgado comparison.

He should be traded because the Jays have shown they don't want him. Sending him down now while he is clearly one of the 25 best players on the team speaks loud and clear. Service time is no longer an issue and seasoning isn't either.

Snider needs a fresh start in another organization and if they could get something of value for him, it would be right to trade him.

BUT as you quoted only half my sentence, let me remind you that I said EXCEPT they have nearly destroyed his trade value by this point. So they won't get anything of value for him. So they won't trade him. So he will continue to be a "prisoner" of this organization for another year.

At least JP had the good sense to trade away the guys he didn't like early - such as Felipe Lopez and Jayson Werth and let them get on with their careers.
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China fan - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 05:52 PM EDT (#253217) #
So there's a vast conspiracy against Snider. At first we thought it was just Cito. Then it turns out that Farrell is part of the conspiracy -- and Anthopoulos too! They all hate him. And they've made him a prisoner of their organization.
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eudaimon - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 06:00 PM EDT (#253218) #
Not sure Snider is one of the top 25, when you account for positions of course. He got off to a hot start, but has been slowing.

And what about those 17 strikeouts in 48 at-bats? That's around 35%, and not too many people can get away with that. Maybe Mark Reynolds, some of the time.

Snider needs to work on his swing in a pressure free environment, I think. He's still young, and I think it's likely what's best for both sides.
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robertdudek - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#253219) #
So there's a vast conspiracy against Snider. At first we thought it was just Cito. Then it turns out that Farrell is part of the conspiracy -- and Anthopoulos too! They all hate him. And they've made him a prisoner of their organization.

It's not a conspiracy, it's just that Anthopoulous hasn't and doesn't value him as Snider should be valued, just like JP undervalued Felipe Lopez and Jayson Werth (who both turned out to be pretty good players). He views Snider as a backup plan, whereas Snider deserves and deserved to be given a full chance to become a star.

In years past, if a GM didn't want to give a top prospect a full shot, he would make every effort to trade him for something of value and move on (if you think about it, it makes logical sense). Snider clearly fits in that category as he was regarded as one of the best prospects in baseball coming up through the system. Our current GM doesn't seem to follow that particular code.

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Magpie - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#253220) #
I wish you would retire the Delgado comparison.

Two enormously hyped prospects who through age 23 still hadn't turned into all stars? Why would I retire it? Seems a bit more relevant than Felipe Lopez.

But the part of the whole thing that I'd put in big flashing neon letters are the words "through age 23." Snider is just getting started. What on earth did people expect?
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robertdudek - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 06:16 PM EDT (#253221) #
Not sure Snider is one of the top 25, when you account for positions of course. He got off to a hot start, but has been slowing.

He's better than Francisco and much younger. Snider is not going to learn to hit against AAA pitching - if he's going to improve his K rate he will do it at the major league level. If he is not then we should already have sufficient evidence pointing to that. But he's never been given 550 PA in a season to work on his weaknesses against top class competition so the JAYS still don't know how good Snider can or can't become. They've been evaluating him for three years, tinkering with his swing and approach, such that we know less about his skills now than we did three years ago.

While the Jays were NOT contending in recent years they were also NOT giving Snider a full shot to see what they had - this was a huge mistake, resulting in them STILL not knowing what they have.

So they have failed to develop him and they have failed to cash in on his top prospect status when he had it. By their handling of him, they have shaved off his trade value at every step and have basically nothing to show for it now. Given where Snider was three years ago, it is hard to imagine the Jays handling him any worse. And I have never seen this organization handle any young player any worse.

I have a deep feeling of disgust about this situation, not only because the team has hurt itself by this handling, but that they have hurt the career of this once promising young player.

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robertdudek - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 06:23 PM EDT (#253222) #
Magpie,

Please look at star position players who were not catchers and I'm sure you will find that a very large number of them were established and productive major leaguers by age 23. At age 24, Snider seems destined to spend most of the year in the minor leagues. He is only three years away from his theoretical peak: time is running out for him in terms of a shot at greatness.

This is a critical year for Snider, as age 25 is considered very old for a position prospect that is not a catcher. For a player who was so good at age 20 to be basically in the same place in his career at age 24 must be considered a developmental disaster.

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smcs - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 06:26 PM EDT (#253223) #
He views Snider as a backup plan, whereas Snider deserves and deserved to be given a full chance to become a star.

Doesn't that ignore the three straight seasons where Travis Snider opened up the season as the starting left fielder, and that he was basically handed the gig to start last year? I'd agree that he has been jerked around a bit (especially being sent down in May of 2009), but lets not downplay the fact that Snider has received 877 Major League PAs and has been a below average offensive player. I'd rather have Snider on the Jays because I think he is a better player than Eric Thames, but I understand the decision to send him down.

Doesn't it also ignore, to some degree, that Brett Lawrie has been handled in almost the exact same fashion?
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robertdudek - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 06:38 PM EDT (#253224) #
Doesn't it also ignore, to some degree, that Brett Lawrie has been handled in almost the exact same fashion?

Lawrie has been handled up to this point similarly to Snider. Except that the following year Snider was farmed out after struggling to begin the year. Do you think Lawrie will struggle and be farmed out this season? I don't.

I don't think that that will happen because Lawrie is an even better prospect than Snider was because he is/was a 3b/2b prospect instead of corner outfielder and he has more broad-based skills (faster, less strikeout prone).
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Magpie - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 06:45 PM EDT (#253225) #
a player who was so good at age 20

At age 20, Snider hit .275/.358/.480, with most of that coming at AA. Not bad at all, though it didn't shout out "star" to me at the time. Granted, Ricciardi clearly thought differently and just couldn't wait to start the clock on him then and there.

I've always resisted the idea that Snider is a future star just waiting to blossom. I just don't see it. Which is probably why I'm not tremendously disappointed by what he's done so far, or by how the organization has handled him (with the exception of Ricciardi's original August 2008 decisions.) I think he can still be a good major leaguer, which is all I ever expected, and he's still just turned 24 years old.
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robertdudek - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 06:47 PM EDT (#253226) #
Here are Snider's major league PAs in reality and in my alternative universe:

2008: 80 pa (15)
2009: 276 pa (350)
2010: 319 pa(550)
2011:202 pa (either traded in 2010/2011 off season or another 550plus)

The above in parentheses is how you bring in a potential star, evaluate him, and then either keep or trade.

The point here is that with a player who might be a star, you have to have a multi-year plan; evaluating him on a monthly basis is not the way to go.

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robertdudek - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 06:53 PM EDT (#253227) #
At age 20, Snider hit .275/.358/.480, with most of that coming at AA.

That is EXTREMELY GOOD for a 20 year old against ML/AAA/AA/A+ competition. If you never thought of Snider as a potential star at that age, you were among a very small minority.

Compare that to a current outfielder prospect like Jake Marisnick who at age 20 last year spent the whole year at low A.


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Magpie - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 06:56 PM EDT (#253228) #
Here are Snider's major league PAs in reality and in my alternative universe:

I might actually buy into that if it had started in 2009 with the 15 September plate appearances, rather than 2008. But anyway, you lose me completely me when you say things like "shot at greatness" and "potential star." I think we must be talking about two different guys.
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John Northey - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#253229) #
Hutchinson has a non-zero chance of making the rotation I think. On the radio this morning, iirc, Jerry Howarth was talking up Hutch as a potential #5 guy to start the season, suggesting it isn't ideal but he might force the issue. His stats aren't amazing, 3.27 ERA in 11 IP 2 BB 6 SO - nothing jumps at you but it depends really on how he looks to the coaches/manager/GM. If they feel Hutch is ready and the best option available then why not?

As to options and 40 man time etc, if the Jays planned on calling up Hutch at some point anyway then it shouldn't be a factor. I doubt it'll happen but it sure would be interesting.
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robertdudek - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#253230) #
At age 20, Snider hit .275/.358/.480, with most of that coming at AA. Not bad at all, though it didn't shout out "star" to me at the time.

How about this line at AA for a 20 year old - does this also not shout out star to you?

609PA/.285avg/.346obp/.451slg

It's not as good as what Snider did, but still, maybe this guy can hit a little?
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robertdudek - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 07:24 PM EDT (#253231) #
I might actually buy into that if it had started in 2009 with the 15 September plate appearances, rather than 2008. But anyway, you lose me completely me when you say things like "shot at greatness" and "potential star." I think we must be talking about two different guys.

Like I say, if you really thought that about Snider at age 20 you are just plain wrong. Every credible prospect ranking had him in the top 20, most in the top 10. BA had him at #11 pre 2008 and #6 pre2009. Would you not agree that if the BA ranking is somewhat reasonable,  that a #6 ranking makes him a POTENTIAL STAR? If it is not accurate, can you provide evidence that your view at the time is more accurate?

Are you sure you are not engaging in some revisionist thinking, or do you have some unique method of evaluating young talent that I don't know about?
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Richard S.S. - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 07:38 PM EDT (#253232) #

Travis Snider was sent to AAA in 2011 to learn specific things the Blue Jays wanted him to learn.   And he did learn it.   Unfortunately, Travis was injured near season end and was unable to play WinterBall, putting into practise what he had learned.   In Spring Training 2012, he showed what he had learned: http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=501983#gameType='S'&sectionType=career&statType=1&season=2012&level='ALL' .   Right now Travis Snider needs to show consistency with what he`s learned, because it doesn`t matter how well he hits in AAA if he`s not consistent.   He was mismanaged in his J.P. years, not learning until 2011, what slower moving prospects get the chance to develop earlier.   At some point the team will call him up to stay.  

If Adam Lind gains value, then trading Lind at some point moves E.E. to first, and up comes Snider.  If Edwin Encarnacion gains value, trade E.E. and up comes Snider.   If Eric Thames gains value, trade Thames and up comes Snider.   If lost to injury, Lind or Encarnacion or Thames, then up comes Snider.   But trading Snider, before he`s improved his value, will not happen. 

Dustin McGowan was very, very good when he first came up, but still learning.   Now, I believe he`s worked out how to pitch, we`ll have to wait until he starts the Big Games once again to see how well.   Apparently A.A. thinks enough of his stuff to sign him for as much as 3 years.   With the ``foot injury``, he could be out less than 1 week to more than 6 weeks, with it reoccurring within days or not for years later.   The latest he can start without missing a start is the 11th of April.   This season just got interesting.

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robertdudek - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 07:50 PM EDT (#253233) #
Travis Snider was sent to AAA in 2011 to learn specific things the Blue Jays wanted him to learn.   And he did learn it.

What makes you think he did learn it. And what makes you think that IF he did learn it, it was worth learning? Is it the anemic power numbers he put up in AAA last year?

All I see is regression. What I see is that a 20 year old power hitting prospect has been turned into Lyle Overbay with more strikeouts.
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ayjackson - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#253236) #
Big time slow clap for robertdudek, who said almost everything I was thinking as I scrolled through this thread.
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92-93 - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 08:04 PM EDT (#253237) #
Seconded.
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Gerry - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 08:20 PM EDT (#253238) #
To add my 2c.....Travis has shown periods of great play and periods of looking lost. He has yet to show consistency in the major leagues. Travis's periods of great play dazzles everyone and makes fans think he can produce that on a regular basis. But he hasn't. The Jays have chosen Thames's consistency over Snider's roller-coaster.

So why hasn't Travis been able to hit consistently? To me, Travis has an unusual swing and he appears to lose it from time to time. When Travis starts opening up to right field he is losing his swing. Sometimes it appears to me that if the pitcher throws where Travis can hit it, he will hit it a long way. But if the pitcher makes his pitch, Travis can't hit it....in other words he has holes in his swing.

There is also another whispered reason why Travis hasn't hit. That is, he listens to too many people and tinkers with his swing. Last year the story was he needed AAA hitting coach Chad Mottola to fix his swing. In other words, he couldn't rely on Dwayne Murphy. Snider acknowledged this this off-season by saying he was going back to his "old way" of hitting. Another possible subtext to this could be how is Travis' relationship with the coaching staff? (To be clear I know nothing and have heard nothing).

So the $6 million question is how does Travis get a consistent swing? Can he get a consistent swing at the major league level with Eric Thames breathing down his neck? If he gets off to a hot start he might be able to hold it but if he struggles he might not be able to maintain his swing and his approach and be tempted to tinker again. Or Murph could get on his case to hit the way Murph wants him to hit. Another failure and another demotion would be a final nail in the Blue Jay, Travis relationship.

The assignment to AAA, and back to working with Chad Mottola, with say 2 months to solidify his swing could maybe help Travis lock down an approach that works for him. Last year, every time he seemed to be ready, he would get hurt. If Travis hits well in AAA he could become more valuable in a trade and could be in a better position to succeed when called up by the Jays to the major leagues.

If this is the case than Travis should not be the first guy called up until 2 months have passed.

I don't think the relevant question is why is the better player heading to AAA? I think the relevant question is what do the Blue Jays do help the potentially better player maximise his potential? Giving him the major league job in April is a high risk way to find that potential that and could end in a bad way. The Jays probably had this all figured out in the off-season and the only way Travis made the team was if Thames fell on his face.


Finally I would caution against listening to everything AA says. AA is trying to motivate and/or protect his player and his answers are designed to either not embarrass his player or to set him up.
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Gerry - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 08:28 PM EDT (#253239) #
BTW I am just back from vacation so I am catching up here. I have another 2 cents on Adam Lind to add too. The Jays want to win games and they know that Lind has been disappointing over periods recently. I expect that when the Jays face a lefthander Lind will regularly have a day of rest "to protect his back". Encarnacion will play first and Davis or Francisco will be in the lineup. Maybe both of them if Thames sits too. The Jays might not call it a platoon but it will be close.

Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.
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Magpie - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 08:34 PM EDT (#253240) #
Are you sure you are not engaging in some revisionist thinking

Well, duh. I actually guaranteed in mid-summer 2008 that Ricciardi would not do something as stupid and pointless as making Snider a September call-up that year. I've been covering my ass for a long time.

Every credible prospect ranking had him in the top 20

Maybe, but I really wouldn't know. Truth to tell, I approach all of those the same way I approach all other science fiction and fantasy literature. Sometimes I'm in the mood, but most of time I'm just not very interested.

do you have some unique method of evaluating young talent that I don't know about?

Ooh, bringing the snark. Excellent! I do like to discover what the general consensus appears to be and then pin my flag somewhere else. I don't know if you'd want to call that a method, but the idea that there even is a method that can tell you what a 20 year old is going to be like at age 27... seems kind of laughable most of the time.

But seriously - well, more seriously, anyway - the specific thing in Snider's game that I've always seen as central to how he develops is what happens to his K rate, and I'll happily recycle what I said about him a few years ago. As a minor leaguer, Snider struck out much more often than Adam Dunn or Carlos Delgado. Snider struck out as often as Fred McGriff. An awful lot, in other words. And while McGriff developed enormously from that point, and was a far better hitter as a major leaguer than he was as a minor leaguer, it seemed unwise to expect anyone else to follow that particular path. McGriff, I think was somewhat unusual.

Likewise, it seemed unlikely to expect Snider to follow Adam Dunn's path. Dunn really hasn't developed a lick as a hitter since he was 20 years old. The result has been that Dunn has struck out much, much more often in the major leagues than he did in the minors. Dunn got away with it because of his enormous raw power and his tremendous plate discipline. But Snider doesn't have that kind of power or that kind of plate discipline, so if that happened to him... the strikeouts would swallow up his game. At best, he'd be the new Rob Deer or someone like that.

If McGriff and Dunn are the extremes, Carlos Delgado is the middle way and a more likely development path to expect from a young hitter. Delgado developed and grew as a hitter. Not nearly as much as McGriff, but far more than Dunn. While Delgado struck out more often in the majors than he did in the minors, his K rate didn't go through the roof like Dunn's did. And if Snider developed in that fashion you'd have a guy who hits .250-.260 with maybe 30 HR and 70 BB. That's what has generally seemed to me to be the most likely outcome, the most reasonable expectation for him. And if he has a good year with the balls in play, he might make a run at .300, and if the fly balls are carrying he could hit 35 HRs. And it is, in fact, the road he's following. He's striking out a little more often against major leaguers than minor leaguers, as Delgado did, but not dramatically more often as Dunn did.

Incidentally, Delgado and McGriff both had their first MLB season with 500 plate appearances when they were 24 years old. I'm not going to fret too much that Snider hasn't beaten those guys to it, and it looks like he probably won't even match them. That's very fast company.
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robertdudek - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 08:39 PM EDT (#253241) #
Gerry, I follow what you are saying, but I have a couple of observations...

1) Snider will not rebuild his trade value by anything he does in AAA. No one puts any stock in a 24-year-old hitting well in AAA for a few months. A guy who has had spent a lot of years at AAA/ML and then hits well in AAA is considered little more than a journeyman having a good year.

2) The only way Snider will rebuild his trade value is if he has success at the major league level. But in that case, the compelling case for trading him fades away.

3) Snider will not learn at AAA because there are not enough pitchers that can exploit his weaknesses. Once a player establishes he can hit AAA pitching (which Snider did a few years ago), the next phase of learning can only take place at the major league level (or possibly in a AAAA league like Japan).

4) If Murphy/Snider are like "oil and water", then one of them has to go. If most of the Jays hitters are happy with Murphy, then obviously it is Snider who must go or at the very least be allowed to work on his own.

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92-93 - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 08:55 PM EDT (#253242) #
"3) Snider will not learn at AAA because there are not enough pitchers that can exploit his weaknesses. Once a player establishes he can hit AAA pitching (which Snider did a few years ago), the next phase of learning can only take place at the major league level"

This really can't be emphasized enough. I don't understand this assumption that Travis Snider can all of a sudden be taught plate discipline by facing mediocre pitchers in AAA that don't require it.
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robertdudek - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#253243) #
Magpie,

Well, Glennallen Hill struck out way more often than Snider in the minors and yet became a good major league hitter (though not a star). Dunn was a potential star who became a star; McGriff was a potential star who became a star; Delgado was a potential star who became a star. That's what a potential star is - someone who has that potential. At age 20, Snider did not have any less star potential as all these other guys you talked about and in the case of McGriff, more. That is what I've been saying and that is what you objected to. Only in your further statements you seem to be agreeing with me, when talking about these comparables that Snider in fact WAS a potential star at age 20.

Some people view strikeouts as a problem, but they can just as easily be viewed as a potential for improvement. If Snider had decreased his K rates just a little bit each year between age 20 and now, and he maintained his power, he would be an awesome hitter right now. That is why 20 year olds who are above average hitters in AA are always regarded as good hitting prospects. Show me one counterexample.

But let us for the moment put aside the fact that you are wrong about the 20-year old Snider and suppose that you are not wrong and that he was never a potential star and BA and all the others were completely delusional.

Now suppose you are a GM with a 20-year old kid who most everyone thinks is a potential star, but you think of as a lesser prospect.

What is the logical thing to do? Of course it is to trade on that perception and acquire something of great value in exchange for something that others perceive of as having great value.

So even if you are right (which you are not), the Jays still screwed up by not trading an overvalued player when they could have gotten a lot in return..

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greenfrog - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 09:08 PM EDT (#253244) #
The Snider assignment to AAA is generating a lot of Manichean rhetoric around these parts - why not step back from the ledge (perhaps after reading Gerry's sensible posts) and see how it plays out over the course of the season?
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Nick Holmes - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 09:10 PM EDT (#253245) #
...the Jays still screwed up by not trading an overvalued player when they could have gotten a lot in return..

Wasn't Riccardi the GM then?
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robertdudek - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 09:17 PM EDT (#253246) #
Wasn't Riccardi the GM then?

Part of that time, yes. But if AA thought Snider was a stiff he's had over 2 years to cash him in.


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Magpie - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 09:59 PM EDT (#253248) #
This is in danger of pondering the meaning of the word "star," a sure sign that Silliness is Upon Us. (That and the assertions that someone is right and someone is wrong.) Suppose that we agree Dunn, Delgado, McGriff all became major league stars. My point is that it was evident quite some time ago that while Snider was likely to be a productive MLB hitter, he was unlikely to be as productive as any of those guys. Which is a very high bar, I grant you, but I've got the clear impression that that's exactly what a lot of people were expecting.

I could be wrong.
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Nick Holmes - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 10:03 PM EDT (#253249) #
...if AA thought Snider was a stiff he's had over 2 years to cash him in.

True, but by then the market would be drying up for him too...
I'm not convinced the current regime is complicit in anything except sending him down early into last season, and given that it was early in the first season of the new GM/new field Manager dynamic, I'm leaving my torch and pitchfork in the cupboard. There are a few too many unknowns for us to do much more than speculate.
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Gerry - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 10:24 PM EDT (#253250) #
One of my points is that Snider needs a consistent swing. I think he needs to find that in AAA. I don't think the pitchers he faces are as important as his work on himself, his swing. He could be in A ball and still learn and inculcate a swing that works consistently.
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TamRa - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 10:26 PM EDT (#253251) #
"In addition to Drabek, Hutchinson is still in camp and if he pitches well,then would the Jays gamble on him? The team has really talked him up in the offseason "

the key factor MIGHT be who is and is not on the 40.

Objectively, if McGowan's turn only HAS to occur once before April 21, then all other things being equal you give that one to Laffey even if he's not the best pitcher - he's the best choice for a short term hole-plug

It's more sensible that jerking around a prospect...and in that regard, it's much more sensible to use Drabek over Hutchison.


But Drabek is the only one of the three that's on the 40 and unless the Jays want to risk losing a player in order to put Laffey on, it might just be Drabek.

It certainly won't be Hutch.
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BlueJayWay - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 10:37 PM EDT (#253252) #
One of my points is that Snider needs a consistent swing.

Wasn't that the point of his demotion last year?

He was supposed to come back to the majors with a new swing.  And it did look new for awhile, he seemed to stay on the ball more and had all those doubles.  Then after a couple weeks it reverted to the one-handed flail.  So now we're back to this again.

Still amazing to me how different Snider is than when he first came up. 
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TamRa - Monday, March 26 2012 @ 10:59 PM EDT (#253253) #
On Snider, While I am disappointed in the chain of events that led to this point, i also like Thames so I'm kinda torn.

(Can Thames learn 1B?)

But the thing that most frustrates me is the growing perception that Snider has been a repeated failure when given the chance. From my point of view he's had ONE really disappointing year - 2011.

Yes things have been a bit uneven, a lot of which I'll happily attribute to Cito but a lot of it is simply the youth and in experience common to people his age. Slumps, unwise mechanical adjustments, and what not - just part of the growing process.

The guy was a league average MLB hitter as a 21-22 year old and that's not nothing.

What happened at 23 should not be viewed as the key piece of info even if it did come most recently.
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Richard S.S. - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 12:15 AM EDT (#253254) #

Any talk of Travis Snider, this season, specifically this Spring Training, has been ignored by those who like wallowing in the miseries of Last Season.   Anything that`s happened this Spring has been ignored as unimportant.   I understand not being able to afford Gameday Audio (listen to a Radio feed) or Video (watch a Televsion feed); I can understand not wanting Gameday Audio or Video; I can understand ignoring Gameday Audio or Video.    But I cannot understand ignoring changes in Pitching or Batting that have occurred.   I have seen and heard about Snider`s new batting form, and stand by my comments.   I have seen and heard about McGowan to know he`s better now than when he pitched in Toronto late last season and have confidence in him.   I have seen and heard about Cecil`s difficulties in adjusting to be 40 lbs lighter for the first time since pre-2005, it like quiting smoke - cold - everything including balance is different.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but if it`s still padlocked into the past, then all you say is just old news.   (A Hint: Snider hold his hands lower.   He stays longer on a pitch, gets to more pitches, chases less.   Just check - warning small sample - his Spring Training Stats.)   Snider learned how to hit with his hands held lower, and it took most of the AAA season.   No chance to play WinterBall.   Used what he`s learned in Spring Training, just needs ABs to get consistent.

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robertdudek - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 12:27 AM EDT (#253256) #
One of my points is that Snider needs a consistent swing. I think he needs to find that in AAA. I don't think the pitchers he faces are as important as his work on himself, his swing.

I'm sorry Gerry, I just do not buy it. If he really needs to work on his swing mechanics he could do it off a tee and in batting practice.

You don't hit in a vacuum. The swing that he gets going in AAA is going to be exposed by the better major league pitchers. He will only "fix" his swing, if ever, facing major league pitchers,
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robertdudek - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 12:33 AM EDT (#253257) #
Snider learned how to hit with his hands held lower, and it took most of the AAA season.   No chance to play WinterBall.   Used what he`s learned in Spring Training, just needs ABs to get consistent.

If you are right - and you may be (or you might be overemphasizing what a mechanical change can do for a hitter), presumably you are saying that Snider is a better hitter now than he's shown in the past. And if this is the case, he belongs in the major leagues because you only learn to hit major league pitching by facing it.
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subculture - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 01:23 AM EDT (#253260) #
I would love Snider to prove me wrong and become the type of impact bat we have hoped for a few years, the next Delgado or even Shawn Green.  I believe Lawrie WILL become that type of bat (only injuries can slow him down imo), and I also believe Rasmus and Johnson will turn out to be above average for their position for their remaining career.

All this debate about the Jays handling him poorly, or Snider preferring different batting coaches ignores the elephant in the room.

Until Snider shows that he's able to handle above average fastballs, his ceiling is just too limited.  I've read in a few different places that MLB pitchers have adjusted by throwing him more fastballs, and unlike other young prospects Snider hasn't been able to handle even the ones IN the strike zone.  Thames last year struggled with the high-heater, but ripped fastballs in the zone.... and as he learns to lay off the high-heat (or IF he learns), he'll get more and more pitches he can handle. 

I know Bautista modified his timing to hit fastballs better, but he could do this while still managing offspeed pitches bc his swing speed is tremendous.  I don't see that ability in Snider, as it seems he has to cheat in order to hit a good fastball.

But here's hoping I'm wrong...

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robertdudek - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 01:24 AM EDT (#253261) #
My point is that it was evident quite some time ago that while Snider was likely to be a productive MLB hitter, he was unlikely to be as productive as any of those guys.

Depends what you mean by "some time ago". I think that, for me, the point was reached during 2011, when the Jays continual mishandling of Snider convinced me that the longer he spends in the Jays organization the worse his career is going to end up being. He never got his 550 PA season and so we will never know how good he might have become if he had got it in 2010.
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robertdudek - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 01:32 AM EDT (#253262) #
Until Snider shows that he's able to handle above average fastballs, his ceiling is just too limited.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but this is unlikely the key to his "failure" (I have to put that in quotes because in my book Snider has never been given a full opportunity, i.e. no 550PA season). AAA pitchers have excellent fastballs: in my view the main difference between major league pitchers and AAA pitchers as a group is the command of their breaking pitches and/or an effective change-up.

If Snider really is chronically weak against fastballs, he very likely  would not have succeeded in AAA.
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Magpie - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 03:08 AM EDT (#253265) #
Depends what you mean by "some time ago".

To be precise, if you wish, it would be late 2009 when I first pointed out the eerie similarities between Dunn's and Snider's minor league numbers at that point in their lives and started coming to my own conclusions. Dunn walked much more often and struck out a fair bit less; beyond that they were dead ringers for one another.

I agree for the most part that you only really learn how to cope with what major league pitchers do by coping with major league pitchers. I also think that you have to learn how to extricate yourself from a slump at the major league level, it's another skill young hitters need to develop. That was the main reason I was so irritated when Snider was farmed out last season. (Although of course that there really are limits to what the other guys on the team should be expected to put up with, and there really are times when simply continuing to fail isn't helping the young player very much either.. .)
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ColiverPhD - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 08:14 AM EDT (#253266) #
Snider's demotion will not be the end of Toronto OF moves.  If he has a good start in AAA, look for a callup.  I think that it is odd that Franscisco has been virtually unmentioned in this thread...
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Mike Green - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 08:58 AM EDT (#253267) #
I like Snider very much, but one does have to acknowledge the steps back he has taken (as a hitter) since age 21.  It is not only that his major league numbers have been poor, but that his minor league numbers have been so-so in the high minors.  What is odd about it is that he has taken steps forward in other parts of his game. 

I happen to believe that Snider and Thames will be  better hitters than Lind in 2012 and following years, and that working a half-time arrangement for Lind and Encarnacion to allow for full-time work for Snider and Thames would be in the best interest of the club.  I could be wrong. 

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btfsplk325 - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#253268) #
"In addition to Drabek, Hutchinson is still in camp and if he pitches well,then would the Jays gamble on him? The team has really talked him up in the offseason "

I believe that I read somewhere that Hutchinson's pitch count is being limited so that he can come up for McGowan in about August when when Dusty runs out of pitches. If true, Hutchinson will not be a consideration for the starting rotation before then.
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Richard S.S. - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#253271) #
If Snider had been able to play WinterBall, chances are good he's making this team.   Right now, with his new stance - for lack of a better word - needs many ABs to make it his normal hitting position.   Once it's automatic, with no backsliding, if he's dominating he's coming up, baring injury/trade/etc, about midseason.   Now all we can do is wait.
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92-93 - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 11:52 AM EDT (#253272) #
Once should also acknowledge that a lot of those steps back can likely be attributed to a wonky wrist.
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John Northey - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 12:06 PM EDT (#253274) #
I wonder... Snider has 2 years and 15 days of service. Leave him down for 1/2 a month and suddenly the Jays gain an extra year of control pre-free agency. Given he isn't dominating and Thames/Encarnacion/Lind are a reasonable at their slots could that have been an extra factor in keeping Snider in the minors? A year of control once a guy is in his prime (as Snider would be) is very valuable.

I don't see AA trying to game the system to gain a year of arbitration but to gain a year pre-free agency if there is any reasonable argument for it? That I wouldn't put past him.
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greenfrog - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#253275) #
If I were the GM of a rebuilding team like the Cubs, I would try to pry Snider away (not that AA is going to give him away at a discount, but I would certainly make the phone call).
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hypobole - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#253277) #
One thing no one has mentioned as a huge difference between the majors and minors is advance scouting. Hitters are attacked differently. Once these scouts see holes, especially if it's a "can't hit it, can't lay off it", batters will see a steady diet of these pitches until and if they can make adjustments. Some stud prospects never do (see Marte, Andy)
As far as not being able to hit ML fastballs, my recollection is that he has huge problems against the elite fastball pitchers and elite pitchers in general. All players struggle against aces, but if memory serves correct, the other Jays hit about .240 against these stud pitchers and Travis about half that. Don't quote me though.
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subculture - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#253281) #
Robert (and 92-93),

I can't remember where I saw the articles (I'm sure Google or other bauxites will know), but there are some pretty detailed and convincing stats showing just how poor Snider has been at hitting fastballs.  He's not average, or mediocre... but really quite bad. 

He has crushed off-speed pitches (usually a weakness for young players) but he doesn't see many of these in the strike zone any more.

It's possible (and likely) that his wonky wrist has contributed to this issue, but I don't see how you can blame the Jays for that.

He's a smart and versatile player, which is why I think he can still be a decent one.  But I think his upside is closer to Eric Hinske than it is to Delgado....  and let's give Thames a chance to improve upon a decent rookie impression before we write him off as having little upside.

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Mike Green - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#253282) #
Fangraphs has pitch run values for batters.  According to that metric, Snider had hit fastballs well prior to 2011 and didn't in 2011.  The samples are pretty small, so I would be hesitant to attribute too much to that. 
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Kasi - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#253283) #
I'm tired of hearing about Snider. Sure I want him to break out and become the hitter we expected he'd be, but I can't buy into this "group think" that he's this stud waiting to break out while Thames is just a 4th OF taking up space. Just as likely to me after seeing them swing lately that it's the opposite. Thames to me has much more impressive bat speed, and seems to be more resilient/adaptable than Snider. Snider does have the better OF defense true, but I don't think thats enough to outweight what other qualities Thames brings to the table over him.

I'm also tired of this "give him 500 ABs at the major league level" mantra that keeps getting repeated like its going to magically fix him. You don't give 500 ABs to players who hit like he has. Sure you go with him, but if they don't put up the numbers then you sit them or send them to somewhere where they can work on their skills. Do we just go around giving every ballplayer a full season in the bigs to struggle their way through stuff? Where do we make the cut on who gets that much rope to hang themselves? Whether they made the BA top 5 for the team or top 50 overall? Because Keith Law said he likes him and thinks he should get that treatment? (umm, Brett Wallace)

I'm just tired of people treating Snider like some favored son that needs to be babied and treated with kid gloves. He's had plenty of opportunities to prove himself. That he hasn't been able to consistently produce is no one's fault but his own.
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greenfrog - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#253286) #
It seems as though there are certain players that generate very strong fan attachments (or aversions), opinions as to their potential, the right way to handle them, etc. Snider is clearly one. Rzep was a bit like that last year.
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robertdudek - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#253288) #
I'm just tired of people treating Snider like some favored son that needs to be babied and treated with kid gloves. He's had plenty of opportunities to prove himself. That he hasn't been able to consistently produce is no one's fault but his own.

I chose these three sentences but I could include them all because I disagree with everything you say.

The time to treat Snider as a favored son was in 2009 and 2010. You know, when the team was going nowhere anyway. It's too late now - he's just another marginal outfielder at this point.

Three months is not an opportunity if we are talking about your best hitting prospect (at the time) since Shawn Green. Had they given him a full shot in 2010 they could have cashed him in for a couple of nice shiny starting pitcher prospects and likely we'd be seeing one of them helping the team out by now. But no, instead we have a marginal player who has again been sent back to AAA.

No matter how you slice it, everything is the Jays fault.

The Jays drafted him in the first round. They brought him to the majors - perhaps too early ? - if so that is their fault. If Snider was destined to be a star they did nothing but interfere with that process by farming him out when he struggled. If he was destined to fail, they did not trade him when he had high value. If Snider couldn't learn it was the Jays fault for not trading him. If he could learn and they were not able to teach him - again, their fault. If the batting coach tried to make him hit in a way that wasn't suited to him, again their fault. If he was lazy, then again their fault for not cashing him in.

I don't know how things would have turned out for him if he had got his 550AB season in 2010 - but at least we would be in a much better position to know what we had and respond appropriately. We could speculate with more confidence that either ( 1) Snider will be a star and we are just going to plug him in to the lineup and let him develop into a star or (2) Snider is a marginal player and we are going to trade him because he still has the shine of a top prospect and get something better.

My overall point is that the way the Jays handled a top hitting prospect is simply not the way to handle a top prospect - ever. That is because it often leads to the current situation, where we still don't know what we have. That is why we are still arguing about how good or bad Snider can be because we don't know.


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robertdudek - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#253289) #
I wonder... Snider has 2 years and 15 days of service. Leave him down for 1/2 a month and suddenly the Jays gain an extra year of control pre-free agency. Given he isn't dominating and Thames/Encarnacion/Lind are a reasonable at their slots could that have been an extra factor in keeping Snider in the minors? A year of control once a guy is in his prime (as Snider would be) is very valuable.

I agree this is plausible and this has been part of the thinking for the Jays in dealing with Snider throughout his career. And to sum it up, I can say that their method is penny wise and pound foolish. To shave service time, they have interfered with the development of this player and/or have greatly eroded his trade value. Good work saving those pennies.
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Kasi - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 04:47 PM EDT (#253291) #
I doubt the Jays (or anyone) know that if the prospect was fated to fail. Well it seems like the Jays made the decision on Wallace earlier than anyone else did, but that's that. You can't really do that with every prospect.

I'm pretty sure that if Snider had been given 500 ABs and not proved himself that his fan club would still have come out and invented some explanation for why he struggled and why he still deserves another shot.

And your explanation pretty much absolves Snider of any blame or responsibility for his performance on the field. You know what that star players often come out and seize that opportunity and run with it. Snider has had those chances but has fallen on his face every time. I still stand behind my point that if a player isn't producing (or at least making progress, since results don't always come from good approaches) then he has no point being in the majors.

At the end of the day it is Snider who needs to take that step forward. He can be coached and babied all year long, but if he doesn't take those lessons and apply them when he steps out on to the field that is his fault.
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China fan - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#253292) #
"If he was destined to fail, they did not trade him when he had high value. If Snider couldn't learn it was the Jays fault for not trading him."

This assumes God-like powers of prophecy by the managers and GMs -- some kind of super-human ability to know the future and fleece other teams in trades because of a God-like understanding of a prospect's trajectory. You're being a little unrealistic here. Nobody can be certain of the "peak value" of a prospect. Nobody can be sure of the peak until it is gone -- and then you might still hope that the peak could still return.

The most likely scenario is this: the Jays did not think Snider would fail. They thought he might struggle but they thought his talent would eventually propel him to a full-time job. When he floundered at the major-league level, they thought he should work on his mechanics at Las Vegas. All of those assessments are perfectly justifiable, even if in hindsight they were perhaps wrong. To be honest, we can never know if Snider would have performed better if he had 550 ABs at the majors in 2009 or 2010 or 2011. (Which also requires him to be never injured, by the way.) Maybe he would have performed worse if he was a failing major-leaguer who was constantly thrown into every game even when his confidence was shattered -- that's just as conceivable, in my view, even if you disagree.

Managers and GMs make incorrect assessments all the time. It happens routinely. Sometimes a prospect is not quite as talented as the managers thought. You can't crucify them for guessing wrong. They're paid to make decisions, and every decision is a gamble. You want perfection in every gamble?
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85bluejay - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 05:30 PM EDT (#253296) #
Of course, you are correct - it's all the jays fault - if he misses a meal, it's the jays fault - if he fails to get an erection, it's the jays fault. 
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92-93 - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 05:48 PM EDT (#253299) #
Maybe the Jays should keep Lawrie down until mid-May so they can gain an extra year of control.
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CeeBee - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 06:03 PM EDT (#253301) #
"Maybe the Jays should keep Lawrie down until mid-May so they can gain an extra year of control."
Thats a brilliant idea. I really think you should talk the Jays owners into hiring you . They could start printing playoff tickets right away.
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robertdudek - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 06:56 PM EDT (#253305) #
When he floundered at the major-league level,

You should take a look at his actual batting record prior to 2011 and note that it is pretty far from floundering.
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robertdudek - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 07:06 PM EDT (#253306) #
Managers and GMs make incorrect assessments all the time. It happens routinely. Sometimes a prospect is not quite as talented as the managers thought. You can't crucify them for guessing wrong. They're paid to make decisions, and every decision is a gamble. You want perfection in every gamble?

No I don't want perfection, but I want a process that has the best chance of success.

The club is always at fault where player development is concerned, never the player. The club makes all the decisions regarding who is drafted, where they play in the minors, when the player is promoted, whether to trade him, when to bench or send him down, when to change his position, who to hire as batting coach etc. It is never the player's decision.

As such, every club will make mistakes and it is in a sense a combination of their fault and/ or bad luck (such as injury) - but it is never the player's fault.

But because they CHOSE to "develop" Snider in such a stupid way, their failure is magnified, as a better approach would have yielded better results (either better development or better value in a trade).

I am not saying the Jays are a bad organization, or that I expect perfection from them. What I am saying is that in this particular instance they have handled Snider stupidly and Snider deserves none of the blame for that.
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China fan - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 07:09 PM EDT (#253307) #
I didn't say he was floundering for the whole time before 2011. I said he was sent down to Las Vegas "when he floundered." At the time of his demotions, he was clearly floundering.

At this point, if I was 92-93, I would be criticizing you for "reading comprehension." But I won't. I'll just take the opportunity to explain what I was saying, which is the more civilized way of conversing.
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robertdudek - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 07:09 PM EDT (#253308) #
At the end of the day it is Snider who needs to take that step forward. He can be coached and babied all year long, but if he doesn't take those lessons and apply them when he steps out on to the field that is his fault.

No it is not his fault. He is what he is. It is up to the Jays to recognize that they have a player who either can't or won't improve and get his ass out of here.

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robertdudek - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#253309) #
I didn't say he was floundering for the whole time before 2011. I said he was sent down to Las Vegas "when he floundered." At the time of his demotions, he was clearly floundering.

No he was not floundering. He was in a slump. Most young hitters fall into slumps and as I have been saying all along it is a very bad idea to farm out your best hitting prospect when he is in a slump and you are not in contention for a playoff spot.
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92-93 - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#253314) #
CeeBee must be missing his sarcasm meter. Cuz there's a chance I'd be advocating the Jays suffocating Lawrie's development so Rogers could save a few pennies.
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Ryan Day - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 09:43 PM EDT (#253323) #
No, he was floundering. There are slumps, and then there is Travis Snider in 2011. He was hitting an absolutely wretched 184/276/264 when he was sent down. He wasn't even hitting for any power, and hitting for power is the one thing Snider is supposed to be able to do.

Snider had 61 pretty good games in Vegas, and 49 horrible games in Toronto, neither of which qualifies him for a spot on the roster this year.
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Richard S.S. - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 10:52 PM EDT (#253328) #
And in those 61 (only) pretty good games did Snider learn the stroke he's using now.   Because, if he wasn't learning something so new, he have 61 big games.   Just look at his 2012 Spring Training stats as comparison.
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Kasi - Tuesday, March 27 2012 @ 11:25 PM EDT (#253330) #
His LV numbers last year were pretty anemic. Nice obp but poor power numbers. And as a fangraphs article earlier today stated, K rate is a useful predictive spring training state. His was again well above 30%. The last time he looked good was that game against Texas where he hurt his wrist.
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Mike Green - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 08:56 AM EDT (#253336) #
On another topic, Kyle Drabek's outing last night might have been the best news of a very good spring.  Facing Sabathia and a lineup of Yankee regulars, Drabek shut them down for 5 innings with 2 walks and 5 strikeouts.  Lawrie, of course, doubled and tripled...

It looks like the rotation is set.  There are the usual concerns about the #4 and #5 starters (Cecil and Drabek), but frankly, when you emerge at the end of spring training with the rotation on balance pitching well and your starting lineup healthy, that's really all you want out of the spring. 

Objectively, I have marked this club down for 85 wins; subjectively, I like them quite a bit better than that.  90 wins and a playoff berth. Tout est possible. 

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CeeBee - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 10:58 AM EDT (#253340) #
If Drabek does in fact get the 5th starting spot and pitches well what happens when McGowan is ready? I know, worry about it if and when it happens and it would be a good thing, especially if McGowan forces the issue by also pitching well which brings us to Cecil and the old axiom, "you can never have too much pitching".
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Ryan Day - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#253342) #
Cecil is probably on the shakiest ground among the starters - if he struggles and Drabek can continue find the strike zone, we might see Cecil demoted.

(I had thought, earlier in the offseason, that Cecil might be a candidate for the pen, but that's pretty full by now.)
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92-93 - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 11:38 AM EDT (#253346) #
I think much of the motivation behind the McGowan extension was that they can develop him now at their own pace. Without the financial security McGowan may have been hesitant to allow the Jays to play around with extended spring and the DL, thinking that he needs to be out on the mound as much as possible this year to earn himself some more money. Now everybody can relax and Dustin will get a spot in the rotation when it's clear that he's ready and deserving of one. When the bottom 3 pitchers are Alvarez, Cecil, and Drabek, there really is nothing to worry about here.
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CeeBee - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#253348) #
Good point on McGowan. I know it's way too early to expect Drabek to be more than a #5 but IF, and thats a big if he really is ready to take a step or two up that really improves the rotation. Adding a "healthy" McGowan might put Cecil on the bubble but it's nice to have two lefties in the rotation if possible.
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mathesond - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 12:21 PM EDT (#253349) #
I saw that the Giants are doing top Brandon Belt what the Jays are doing to Snider...wonder if a trade make sense for all parties
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John Northey - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 01:08 PM EDT (#253352) #
Belt & Snider both hit from the left side, are LF'ers although Belt is more a 1B who can play LF/RF while Snider is a LF who can play CF in a pinch. Both are entering their age 24 season.

Belt is ranked #23 by Baseball America on prospect lists. Snider has too much experience, but last was #6 in 2009.

Snider in the minors: 306/379/522 OPS of 901 over 1887 PA
Belt in the minors: 343/457/596 OPS of 1.052 over 825 PA

Last year Belt hit 225/306/412 101 OPS+ over 209 PA
Snider hit 225/269/348 65 OPS+ over 202 PA.

San Fran would be nuts to do this trade as their current 1B is Aubrey Huff who had a 90 OPS+ last year after his 142 the season before. Their likely need will be at 1B. However, Huff is signed for $10 mil this year and $10 next (or $2 mil buyout) so if they let cash decide (and they seem to have) then Belt might be available.

If I'm the Jays would I do it? Snider has positional flexibility (can play CF) but odds are he won't be a solid choice in CF and Gose is almost ready. I would have to do the trade because you gain a few more option years, you gain a guy who will be ready for 1B if Lind flops again or LF if Thames flops, and likely a better bat.

From the sounds of it Belt's swing isn't sweet enough for the Giants hitting coach - ie: they want to redo his swing. If the Jays scouts say it isn't an issue and the Giants like Snider's swing then this just might work.
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Thomas - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#253361) #
A recent post on whether spring training records matter, examining the 2007-2011 seasons.
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/3/27/2905234/do-spring-training-records-matter
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Mike Green - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#253367) #
That is interesting, Thomas.  The take-away is that there is a weak but noticeable correlation between spring-training record and the regular season record.

Cecil was scheduled to get the start today on 4 days rest, but they started Tepera instead.  Any reports?

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jester00 - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#253368) #

Mike,

 

It sounds like Cecil threw 7 innings in the minor league game today, as per Wilner.  Apparently looked pretty good to boot.  I can't confirm that though, only Wilners word.  And that ain't much.

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Mike Green - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 04:30 PM EDT (#253372) #
Throwing 7 innings, minor league game or not, is a positive.  Thanks.
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Gerry - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#253375) #

Tony LaCava gave an interview to Bluebird Banter and there are three items of note in the interview:

1. Mike McDade looks like he is heading back to AA so both he and David Cooper can play first base.  This seems to be a change of thinking from earlier in the spring when the Jays said that both players would be in AAA.

2. Gustavo Pierre has been converted to 3B.  This is not a  surprise.  The question now is will he or Kellen Sweeney get the Lansing 3B job?

3. Asher Wojciechowski appears to be headed back to Dunedin.  Again this is not a big surprise.  I thought the Jays would push him to AA by virue of his having spent a full year in Dunedin already but he hasn't earned the promotion so the return to Dunedin is understandable.

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Mike Green - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#253376) #
Thanks, Gerry.  Those are all sensible moves.  Good on the organization. 
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92-93 - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#253383) #
The reason to send Cecil to a minor league game on a day where the Orioles aren't bringing any regulars is so they can end and extend innings. I wouldn't put much stock into that "7" figure.
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92-93 - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#253384) #
Part of the motivation behind sending McDade to AA could be opening up ABs for Yan Gomes.
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Mike Green - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#253386) #
By a positive, 92-93, I meant that Cecil's arm is probably OK.  It tells you little about anything else. 
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92-93 - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 05:29 PM EDT (#253387) #
Injuries haven't been a problem for Brett since he was stretched out, aside from the ones he gives himself in the kitchen.
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Mike Green - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#253388) #
Whenever there is a significant loss of velocity, one worries about unreported injuries. 
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85bluejay - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#253389) #
Yeah, I think that Yan Gomes emergence definitely helped push McDade back to AA - hopefully, the Jays can package Cooper in July.
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Gerry - Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#253397) #
Good point 92-93. I had the same thought on my way home from work. Gomes good hitting in the spring could have forced McDade back to AA. Catcher and first are the only real places for Gomes to get work.
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TamRa - Thursday, March 29 2012 @ 01:49 AM EDT (#253402) #
" Catcher and first are the only real places for Gomes to get work."

Wait...my understanding was that he'd had significant time at 3B. He was even asked about it in a Fan interview recently.

Why would the hesitate to push Kevin Howard to the bench on occasion to let Gomes play third?
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Jonny German - Thursday, March 29 2012 @ 08:19 AM EDT (#253404) #
In his 3 minor league seasons Gomes has played 137 games at catcher and 10 at first base. Never played third.

It's interesting that he's had only 867 PA in 3 years. Has he been injured a lot, or just always been treated as a backup catcher?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=gomes-001yan
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Ryan Day - Thursday, March 29 2012 @ 09:04 AM EDT (#253405) #
He's played six innings at third this spring. Not that that means he can play third, but there's at least a possibility.
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Spifficus - Thursday, March 29 2012 @ 09:16 AM EDT (#253406) #

Wait...my understanding was that he'd had significant time at 3B.

I was thinking the same thing. Turns out I was confusing him a bit with fellow 2009 draft-mate and C, Sean Ochinko. I'm not entirely sure why I was, but it is what it is.

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Gerry - Thursday, March 29 2012 @ 12:33 PM EDT (#253424) #
The Jays have released RHP Andrew Liebel, RHP Milciades Santana and 2B Matt Nuzzo (per BA).
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Richard S.S. - Thursday, March 29 2012 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#253446) #

Yan Gomes is drafted in 10th round of 2009, just prior to his 21st birthday (07/19/87) from a College, not a High School - Strike One.   He managed 237 ABs, 223 of which were in A-, hitting .300, .370, .439, 23 R, 23-2B, 2-3B, 2-HR, 46 RBI - lacks power - Strike Two.   Oh yeah, he's just another Catcher - Strike Three.

Just looking at his stats  http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=gomes-001yan , I see a Good player who became an afterthought before year two.  Only TamRa shows him any respect ranking him our fourth best catching prospect, behind Travis d'Arnaud, Carlos Perez and A.J.Jimenez.   In 2010 he was in A+ and in 2011 he was in AA with a brief 4 games in AAA.    IMO he desreves a promotion to Las Vegas - backup ABs to d'Arnaud, backup ABs to Cooper and some ABs at D.H. should get him 450+ABs. 

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Brent S - Thursday, March 29 2012 @ 04:55 PM EDT (#253448) #
Matt Nuzzo released? Are you kidding me?

Touch 'em all, Matt. You'll never hit a bigger home run in your life!

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MatO - Thursday, March 29 2012 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#253449) #
I can see Gomes as maybe having a Rod Barajas type career.
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85bluejay - Thursday, March 29 2012 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#253456) #

Even though he was drafted in the 3rd round, never a fan of Andrew Liebel ( much like Brandon Magee)  - even if he didn't suffer those injuries, never expected him to amount to much - happy we are no longer drafting these low-ceiling college seniors early in the draft.

Gomes problem is that he's always played with a better regarded catching prospect and so has received backup playing time - the Jays must have re-evaluated him last year as they sent him to the AFL and he received an invitation to spring training.

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grjas - Thursday, March 29 2012 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#253463) #
Glad i was in beijing this week to miss this exchange.

Come on guys this site has historically been one of the most interesting and informative to read. And there are a lot of knowledgeable posters that many of us learn from. (and with better grammar than me)

But the last few weeks has seen one tiresome exchange of verbosity and insult after another, with some of our best posters lowering their games. The jays are playing well together these days. Could we?

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