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We finish our tour of the infield minor league assignments with a look at third base. This is not a position of strength in the Jays minor league system and you could see the same players in the same spots to start 2012 as played in 2011.

Las Vegas

Now that Brett Lawrie has passed through the sin city third base should be occupied by Kevin Howard. When Lawrie was injured last season Howard played 26 games at third base in AAA before being sent down to New Hampshire for the playoffs. Howard was the MVP of the Fisher Cats in those playoffs. Howard is 30 years old and is an organization guy at this stage. He hit 291 in Las Vegas last season which is average for that park. The Jays other options are converted middle infielders such as Chris Woodward, Luis Valbuena or Brian Bocock.

 

New Hampshire

Mark Sobolewski was pushed to AA to start 2011 and did alright, he hit 273 but didn't show the power you would expect from third base. Sobo had 8 home runs in 112 games and 20 doubles. Sobo is likely an average defender at best so he must likely stays in AA for 2012.  even if he does have to return to New hampshire Sobolewski is happy to be playing anywhere in 2012 after his melanoma scare as reported by Kevin Gray.  Sobolewski staying in AA leaves the question, what to do with Kevin Ahrens?

 

Dunedin

Ahrens produced an OPS of 723 in Dunedin in 2011, his first full year of hitting only from the right side. Ahrens is still 22, he wll turn 23 in April and it looks like the prospect bus has left him behind. But he could surprise in his age 23 season. He has shown no signs that he will, and because of that I think he will return to Dunedin for another shot at the FSL.

 

Lansing

Bryson Namba was the surprise opening day third baseman for Lansing in 2011 and he didn't hit enough to play his way out of the Midwest League. Among the alternatives to Namba could be Balbino Fuenmayor, although he can't really field the position.

 

If the Jays decided to convert Gustavo Pierre from a shortstop to a third baseman he could be the Lansing third baseman. Two other options are Kellen Sweeney and Seth Connor. Sweeney missed most of 2011 and because of that would be unlikely to get jumped to Lansing. Connor played well for the Jays in the GCL but a jump to Lansing for the 41st round draft pick would be unlikely. London's Randy Schwartz and Andy Fermin are other options.

 

The above scenario implies no change to the third base positioning for 2012 as compared to 2011. Howard didn't start 2011 on the Las Vegas roster but he did arrive to take over from Brett Lawrie when he went on the DL. Sobolewski, Ahrens and Namba started out last season with the same teams on which I project they will start 2012.  As I said at the start of this story, third base is not a position of strength for the Jays. That makes the trade for Brett Lawrie look even better.

 

We will take Friday off from this series and return Monday with a look at the outfielders, followed by pitching.

2012 Minor League Players - Third Base | 35 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Lugnut Fan - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 07:11 AM EST (#251195) #

I agree with your assessment of Namba Gerry.  I believe he will be back in Lansing as well.  There seemed to be some tension between him and Mike Redmond last season that saw Namba taken out of a game and benched the last couple of games during the regular season and pretty much throughout the playoffs.  My guess is that Redmond will kind of shy away from him on the Dunedin roster.

Ahrens is in a difficult position.  He has been a disappointment, but I think you have to either move him up and pressure him or cut bait.

China fan - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 08:37 AM EST (#251198) #
Given the surplus of middle infielders at Vegas, wouldn't it make more sense to shift Valbuena over to 3B, rather than playing Howard at 3B? I'm not saying that Valbuena is a great prospect or anything, but he's a lot younger than Howard and perhaps has some upside and some potential value to the major-league team, whereas Howard isn't going anywhere at his age. If Valbuena plays at 3B, then McCoy or Bocock can take 2B, with Diaz as the super-sub and backup shortstop (unless he goes to New Hampshire).
Forkball - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 08:54 AM EST (#251199) #
In conclusion, let's hope Lawrie is at 3B for the next decade.
Gerry - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 10:10 AM EST (#251201) #

China fan that is a possibility.  I mentioned that at the end of my Las Vegas paragraph.

Kevin Goldstein at B Pro has his Blue Jay top 11 prospects up.  I can't reproduce the commentary but here are his top eleven:

Five-Star Prospects

1. Travis d’Arnaud, C
2. Jake Marisnick, OF

Four-Star Prospects

3. Daniel Norris, LHP
4. Anthony Gose, OF
5. Noah Snydergaard, RHP

Three-Star Prospects

6. Drew Hutchison, RHP
7. Justin Nicolino, LHP
8. Deck McGuire, RHP
9. Adonys Cardona, RHP
10. Kevin Comer, RHP
11. Christopher Hawkins, OF

John Northey - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 10:26 AM EST (#251203) #
Just for fun I checked the links at B-P and saw their 2008 top 11 for the Jays.
5 Star: Snider
4 Star: no one
3 Star: in order...Kevin Ahrens, 3B; Brett Cecil, LHP; John Tolisano, 2B; J.P. Arencibia, C; Justin Jackson, SS; Ricky Romero, LHP; Yohermyn Cavez, OF
Add in 3 guys at 2 stars and 3 more 'just missing'.

Yes, Rickey Romero was ranked below Justin Jackson. Interesting to see that 2 pitchers and one hitter from that crew have had clear ML success while the 5 star talent has yet to fully earn a slot.

2010 - http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=9935 - was the last list before AA had a chance to draft anyone but his first big trade of Halladay had happened.

Five-Star Prospects
1. Kyle Drabek, RHP - via Halladay trade
2. Brett Wallace, 1B - via Halladay trade
Three-Star Prospects
3. Travis d'Arnaud, C - via Halladay trade
4. Chad Jenkins, RHP
5. J.P. Arencibia, C
6. Zach Stewart, RHP
7. Carlos Perez, C
8. Jake Marisnick, OF
9. Henderson Alvarez, RHP
10. Tim Collins, LHP
Two-Star Prospects
11. Gustavo Pierre, SS

Four More:
12. Brian Dopirak, 1B
13. Josh Roenicke, RHP
14. Brad Mills, LHP
15. David Cooper, 1B

Wow was the system bare. The top 3 were all from trading Halladay otherwise it would've been a system with nothing above 3 star level and just 1 for the 'more' section (Cooper). So today there are at least 5 prospects ranked higher than any prospect was when AA took over. Yeah, I'd say the system has improved just a bit.
John Northey - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 10:30 AM EST (#251205) #
Y'know, going over that 2010 list it is interesting to note that #5 is now an everyday catcher, #9 looks to be a solid starting pitcher, #10 was up all year (for the Royals) and #15 won a batting title in AAA. #1/2, while the only guys over 3 stars (Drabek & Wallace) have had serious issues in the majors to date.

The old 'youneverknow' rule.
92-93 - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 12:13 PM EST (#251210) #
Goldstein would lead you to believe that Matt Dean belongs on this list. I was surprised by how high he was in BP's Top 11.
greenfrog - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 02:26 PM EST (#251218) #
It's interesting how far Jenkins has plummeted in BP's estimation over the last couple of years, notwithstanding a decrease in his H/9 IP rate. He doesn't even make the top 20; KG commented that he's a #5 starter at best, with a relief role more likely. I guess it's some combination of stagnant BB and K rates and lots of prospects passing him on the depth chart. But I still hold out hope that he can be an effective #4 or 5 SP in the majors (chewing up innings with good control and inducing grounders in front of a strong IF defense).
ayjackson - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 03:15 PM EST (#251222) #
Greg (Ellicott City)

Who reaches respectability first: Orioles or Astros?

Klaw   (1:53 PM)

Astros.

OUCH!

Ryan Day - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 03:22 PM EST (#251223) #
...it would've been a system with nothing above 3 star level...

But not entirely, because Marisnick was in the system, even if he wasn't considered a 5-star prospect at the time. Which is a problem with treating prospect rankings as some sort of absolute - there's so much volatility that a system that appears to be loaded one year may turn out to be a complete bust down the road, and vice versa. Carlos Perez still has a lot of potential - one breakout season and he could turn into the next D'arnaud.

Take Daniel Norris - oodles of potential, but he has yet to throw a single pitch professionally. (unless he was in instructional league?) So many things can happen between now and when/if he makes the majors. If he struggles, or gets hurt, or just doesn't develop as people hope, it really doesn't matter that he was a 4-star prospect immediately after being drafted.
Mike Green - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 03:47 PM EST (#251224) #
It would be interesting to study the W/L record of teams with a top 5 and a bottom 5 farm system 3 years later, especially if you controlled for current W/L.  I would guess that there would  be a difference, but it would be on the order of about 3 wins in a season. 
Mark - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 03:51 PM EST (#251225) #
FYI, from this years list

Nine More:
12. Aaron Sanchez, RHP:
13. Jacob Anderson, OF:
14. Joe Musgrove, RHP:
15. Dwight Smith, OF:
16. A.J. Jimenez, C:
17. Matt Dean, 3B: T
18. Asher Wojciechowski, RHP:
19. Carlos Perez, C:
20. Adeiny Hechavarria, SS:

The all rank as Three Stars per KG in the comments section.

Chuck - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 04:03 PM EST (#251227) #

It's interesting how far Jenkins has plummeted in BP's estimation over the last couple of years, notwithstanding a decrease in his H/9 IP rate.

I have nothing to say about Jenkins in specific. But on the subject of H/9, I will say that K/9 is more informative and more demonstrative of a skill. A good H/9 is almost always linked to a high K/9 which only stands to reason: fewer batters putting the ball in play, ergo fewer hits allowed. But sometimes H/9 can betray luck, either good or bed, or the quality of a defense, or random variability. Sometimes it can look like a skill but not really be one.

Show me a ptcher with a good H/9 and a so-so K/9 (Francisco Cordero 2011) and I'll show you a pitcher with an unduly low BABIP whose due for a comeuppance. I don't know that you can have H/9 as a repeatable skill and not also have K/9 as a skill. (Okay, I will concede that the ability to induce DPs can be seen as a H/9 skill that is not K-related).

greenfrog - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 04:24 PM EST (#251233) #
Yeah, I agree. I was more just observing that he's dropped off BP's radar despite consistency in his statistical profile over the last couple of years, and that if anything has changed, his H/9 IP ratio has actually improved - even if this is statistically less significant than K and BB ratios (perhaps much less significant), it's still better than going in the other direction.
Chuck - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 04:29 PM EST (#251238) #
I'd be amazed if any forecasters, BP especially, even looked at H/9.
China fan - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 04:31 PM EST (#251239) #
Gerry, I realize that you had mentioned the possibility that one of the middle infielders at Las Vegas could be shifted to 3B. What I was trying to do was supplement that thought by arguing specifically that Valbuena was the most logical guy to shift to 3B, and by fleshing out the scenario of how it might happen and what it would mean for the rest of the infield.
TamRa - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 10:00 PM EST (#251251) #
"Goldstein would lead you to believe that Matt Dean belongs on this list. I was surprised by how high he was in BP's Top 11."

I wasn't. My (totally amateur) list had him at #16.

No matter where he ranks on master lists, he's clearly the best 3B in the system. but he probably won't be on a full-season squad to start this year.
TamRa - Thursday, January 26 2012 @ 10:04 PM EST (#251252) #
so - are the BA books in hand yet? I need to know the rest of their top 30 for cross-referencing purposes. I would love to see Marc's list be longer than 20 too. I like to do a "poll" type list of major sources and since BP goes 20 deep, and Sickels has more than 20 names, I can make a longer list if I can get at least 20 from every contributing source.

John Northey - Friday, January 27 2012 @ 09:29 AM EST (#251259) #
Ryan Day - the system may have had a guy who would be viewed as a 5 star talent later but in 2010 BA didn't see him as that. Saying there was a guy there who would eventually be viewed that way is like saying Pittsburgh had a 50 HR guy that they traded for a backup catcher when at the time it was a utility player who was overpaid (as far as many here were concerned) for a catcher who was still viewed as a prospect for more than backup duty.

I think when one looks at a farm system you have to look at two things...
1) How was it viewed _at that time_
2) How did it turn out

Since we are talking about the Jays being ranked #1 by some for their farm system today I think it is worthwhile seeing how the system was viewed in the past to see if being 'top ranked' or 'bottom ranked' makes a big difference.
Spifficus - Friday, January 27 2012 @ 12:08 PM EST (#251264) #

Ryan Day - the system may have had a guy who would be viewed as a 5 star talent later but in 2010 BA didn't see him as that. Saying there was a guy there who would eventually be viewed that way is like saying Pittsburgh had a 50 HR guy that they traded for a backup catcher when at the time it was a utility player who was overpaid (as far as many here were concerned) for a catcher who was still viewed as a prospect for more than backup duty.

This is where ceiling projections are important, though. Rehashing the obvious, Bautista was never considered to have elite power potential. He significantly altered his swing at the major league level, things got freaky, and Jays fans are now reaping the benefits. That's a lot different than looking at an arm strength prospect in short season ball and saying "if he survives attrition, smooths out his delivery, pulls his command together, tightens up his slider and learns a ML average changeup, he's a front-line starter." That's a lot of things that have to come together and a lot of times, most won't. Some do, but you just don't know if this is going to be that particular guy, and he gets discounted accordingly. When it does, that one-time interesting but raw arm ends up a 5 star prospect when he's ready to matriculate. At that first snapshot, while the talent's there, he won't have a high rank because of the risk. Often, he'll get pushed down further than a Magnuson / Farina / Farquhar type who is closer and has survived the attrition even though their peak potential isn't anywhere near the short season guy.

Basically I'm saying an important factor that gets left out when considering system rankings is whether that system has room to grow from high upside but raw talent. A system built on AA 7th inning guys, crafty lefties and scrappy second baseman is quite different than a system built around high-risk high-reward talent. In Sickles rankings, the Giants were 26th and the Indians were 27th. Going forward, however, Cleveland has a far better system outlook... they just don't know which guys are going to be the ones to blossom yet.

John Northey - Friday, January 27 2012 @ 12:37 PM EST (#251265) #
What would be nice is something that says how many 'high upside' talent exists at each level. IE: if a guy's got the potential to be an ace he gets a higher rank than a guy projected to be a #3 starter even if the #3 guy had a much better year. Baseball America is probably the best source for that as they are very tools orientated. Many will fail, but they rarely miss top quality talent vs a stats only projection that would miss guys who could break out ala Romero.
Forkball - Friday, January 27 2012 @ 12:42 PM EST (#251266) #
Really, an evaluation should have two ratings.  One that lists the ceiling and the other that lists the probability of the ceiling.
hypobole - Friday, January 27 2012 @ 12:44 PM EST (#251267) #

Rehashing the obvious, Bautista was never considered to have elite power potential.

Not so. The Pittsburgh scout who recommended drafting him gave him a 70 power, believing Bautista to have 30 HR potential. He may have been a 20th round draft pick, but ended up getting a $500K signing bonus.

hypobole - Friday, January 27 2012 @ 01:08 PM EST (#251269) #

Really, an evaluation should have two ratings.  One that lists the ceiling and the other that lists the probability of the ceiling.

Andy Seiler, was the only evaluator who I've seen do this. Here are 2 links, the 1st explaining his system and the 2nd his review of the Jays 2010 picks with his pre-draft ratings for each.

http://www.mlbbonusbaby.com/2010/02/01/the-seiler-rating-system/

http://www.mlbbonusbaby.com/2010/6/23/1530538/draft-review-toronto-blue-jays


Spifficus - Friday, January 27 2012 @ 01:18 PM EST (#251271) #
I thought I had heard 60, but don't recall the 70.
hypobole - Friday, January 27 2012 @ 01:44 PM EST (#251272) #

"Bautista won two early converts in Pittsburgh scouts Jack Powell and Mark McKnight, and the Pirates chose him in the 20th round as a "draft and follow." The plan was to track his progress the next spring and see whether he was worth signing before he re-entered the draft. Then the Pirates invited him to PNC Park for a workout and saw a 70-grade arm and 70-plus power on the 20-80 scouts scale. It was enough to persuade then-scouting director Mickey White to recommend giving Bautista a $500,000 bonus: second-round money."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=5542048

Ryan Day - Friday, January 27 2012 @ 02:03 PM EST (#251273) #
1) How was it viewed _at that time_ 2) How did it turn out

Sure, but #2 has a big impact on whether #1 meant anything to begin with. You can't separate Marisnick 2010 from Marisnick 2011 - they're the same player. When he was drafted, he was regarded as toolsy but raw; if you downgraded him on that basis, don't you need to reconsider that evaluation after he made a fairly smooth adjustment to pro ball? He's been better than most people expected, but not substantially different - he's still got all the parts people expected him to have, they're just working more effectively.

The Bautista comparison doesn't really stand up, since he had a nearly 10-year pro career (462 MLB games) before realizing his potential. Not many players go from utility to superstar in their late 20s, as many people pointed out when he signed his contract extension. On the other hand, you'd expect a lot of fluctuation, both positive and negative, in young players; so much scouting and evaluation is based on physical projections, like whether they'll add power or velocity, or how they'll react to advanced competition.

I think my problem is the idea that annual prospect rankings are some sort of thing unto themselves, created in a vacuum. Player development is a long-term goal with unpredictable ups and downs; taking a snapshot at the end of the year is useful, but hardly authoritative when we know how flawed many projections & evaluations turn out to be.
greenfrog - Friday, January 27 2012 @ 02:49 PM EST (#251276) #
I think there is also a (natural) tendency to assume that current top prospects are essentially sure things, despite Brien Taylor, Andy Marte, Lastings Milledge, Corey Patterson, Brandon Wood and Dallas McPherson and other former top 10 or 20 prospects failing to make the grade. To be fair, a high percentage of the best prospects do become good-to-excellent players, but forecasting is not an exact science.
Shane - Friday, January 27 2012 @ 03:54 PM EST (#251279) #
Absolutely true. But in some cases ignoring certain MiLB stats as predictors leads to some prospect hype over-confidence. Wood I think gave some pause to stat guys because of his high K rates. Patterson was rushed wasn't he? Marte as well as Carlos Pena at one time were both studied post-disappointment by Joe Sheehan while still with Prospectus looking for 'what went wrong, and was it predictive?' columns. Brien Taylor by the way I believe derailed his prospectdom by getting into a bar fight and damaging his arm/shoulder.
cybercavalier - Friday, January 27 2012 @ 10:26 PM EST (#251285) #
If Kevin Howard is the organizational player at 3B in Vegas, maybe fellow Canadian Shawn Bowman can be given a try. Shawn is 3 years younger and played in New Hampshire in 2010. He played his  2011 season with Atlanta Braves' AAA.
hypobole - Friday, January 27 2012 @ 10:55 PM EST (#251286) #
I know the Red Sox have placed a lot of emphasis on drafting and signing upside talent for some years, similar to AA's philosophy. So I checked with BA between the 2006/2007 seasons on their Top 10 prospects. Only 4 of the 10 made the Top 100 that off-season (#'s 33, 51, 81 and 83).

From the Sox Top 10, prospects 7,8,9 and 10 (Bryce Cox, Craig Hansen, Kris Johnson and Jason Place)seem to be busts. Prospects 3 (Michael Bowden) and 5 (Lars Anderson) are fringe major leaguers combining for -0.2 fWAR last year.

Prospects 2 (Clay Buchholz) and 4 (Daniel Bard) had 1.1 and 1.8 fWAR respectively.

But prospects 1 (Jacoby Ellsbury) and 6 (Dustin Pedroia) - 9.4 and 8.0 fWAR!

Ellsbury, Buchholz, Bard and Bowden were the Top 100 guys - Pedroia didn't even make the list.

And even though more than half their Top 10 contributed nothing 5 yrs later, the Sox still got outstanding results from the group.
Gerry - Sunday, January 29 2012 @ 02:03 PM EST (#251320) #
I hear the Jays would like Kellen Sweeney to take the third base job in Lansing. Sweeney missed most of 2011 but this is his third year and he is still a "priority player".

The Jays will evaluate Sweeney in the spring and if he looks ready they will give him first crack at the Lansing opportunity.
sam - Sunday, January 29 2012 @ 03:01 PM EST (#251322) #
That makes sense. I know Sweeney was hurt last year, but he has a good package of tools.

On a side note for those prospect/draft heads out there. Do people remember Austin Wilson from the Sweeney draft? Well Wilson went to Stanford, here's a video of him taking batting practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqZtTNQv_Qs

A couple things people will note. One, Wilson has really bulked up to the point where it looks like it's taking away from his ability to swing the bat fluently. Two, in the video clip you'll note that his second round of BP he's solely focused on hitting the ball the other way. It's hard to watch a guy like him try to get inside the ball and hit it to right center. Stanford is notorious for teaching guys how to hit the ball the other way. Essentially what they do is bring out a manual for hitting and make everyone on the roster hit a certain way. Within the professional scouting community there is some trepidation with the Stanford hitter as a result. Each hitter's swing is unique. Some guys just have natural ability to hit the ball the other way, others just don't. Trying to retool someone's swing so that they use the whole field can be extremely counter productive. Take John Mayberry Jr as an example. Mayberry out of high school was a prodigious hitter who oozed power potential. He ended going to Stanford where they re-tooled his swing to hit for average. He did just that, but his power never really developed. Take a look at the Stanford hitting stats from this past year. You'll see a lot of guys hitting .300 but not a lot of power. Mayberry got re-drafted in the first round and since then the Phillies have basically been trying to undo what Stanford taught him so he could hit for power. His development has been stunted as a result and he probably will never realize his power potential.

So for guys like Wilson and Brian Ragira, I worry about their long term development. In watching Wilson in that clip and then watching Ragira in comparison to their high school batting practices their are some serious concerns. A guy like Kenny Dieroger who has been projected as a first round talent in the mold of a Jed Lowrie this year too I'd be skeptical if the Jays went after.
ayjackson - Sunday, January 29 2012 @ 03:03 PM EST (#251323) #

There's been a lot of discussion about broadcasting revenues around here lately, so I thought I'd link and interesting piece from the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

The only thing I'd take issue with is his 12-15x cash flow multiple used to value broadcasting companies.  I'm not sure he's applying the multiple to the right measure of cash flow, at least in the case of STO.

FYI, Sportsnet revenues were about $220m for F2011.

Kelekin - Wednesday, February 01 2012 @ 03:23 PM EST (#251471) #
I'm really excited to see what Kellen Sweeney can do when healthy.  I'd love to see him take the full-time 3B job in Lansing, where he likely would have been had it not been for injuries last year. 
2012 Minor League Players - Third Base | 35 comments | Create New Account
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