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The New York Mets signed both John Rauch and Frank Francisco away from the Blue Jays, for $3.5 million/1 year and $12 million/2 years. Rauch and Francisco were both type B free agents that were offered arbitration, so the Blue Jays will receive two compensatory picks in the second round for losing them.


The Jays will also receive a compensatory pick from losing Bengie Molina, as well as a supplementary pick for failing to sign Tyler Beede, giving Toronto six picks in the first two rounds of the 2012 draft. If Kelly Johnson doesn't agree to arbitration, or signs with another team, they could receive an additional two picks.

Rauch signed this a one year contract for $3.5 million this past off-season and posted a disappointing year, with his ERA rising by more than a run and a half and his FIP by almost 2.5 runs. He struck out fewer batters than he had in any of the previous five years, and at thirty-three was starting to show his age. Frank Francisco, acquired in the off-season for Mike Napoli, also had what many Jays fans would term a down year, although his overall numbers were fairly similar to 2010. In point of fact it was actually quite a decent showing.

Francisco was by far the superior of the two players, striking out over a batter an inning and posting a 3.55 ERA. He was one of the best relievers in baseball for the second half of the season, pitching 26.1 innings and allowing only 4 runs while compiling a 24/4 K/BB ratio and allowing batters to hit .188 against him. Losing Rauch probably isn't much of a deal, but keeping Francisco would not have hurt the team, and he would have made a nice one-two punch with Santos. Then again, the reason the team was able to acquire someone like Santos in the first place is because of a surplus of talented minor leaguers that will be replenished with the extra picks. The circle of life I guess.

In any event, the Blue Jays bullpen now looks something like this:

Sergio Santos
Casey Janssen
Joel Carreno
Carlos Villanueva
Luis Perez
Jesse Litsch

Plus one or two of

Chad Beck
Danny Faquhar
Alan Farina
Trystan Magnusson

It's not an all world pen, but it should be reasonably decent. At this point I don't think there is much point in the Jays acquiring another arm unless it's a situation similar to Sergio Santos, as the team will have a plethora of pitchers who will likely end up in the bullpen over the next couple of years. Hopefully someone is able to take a big step forward this year, as Casey Janssen did last year. My money would be on Joel Carreno, who I've always liked. Carreno is a three pitch reliever, though mostly a fastball/curve guy, who posted strong strikeout numbers throughout the minors and had a good cup of coffee in September.



Rauch, Francisco hit the Trails | 66 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Mike Green - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 09:54 AM EST (#248019) #
Right now, the starters would be Romero, Alvarez, Morrow, Cecil and McGowan under the above bullpen listing.  If the club signed another starter, you could make Cecil/McGowan or McGowan/Cecil a tandem 5th starter thereby ensuring that McGowan gets regular but not too heavy work.  Alternatively, you could start out the season with Cecil in the rotation and McGowan in the bullpen or vice-versa and then (if needed) change things up in mid-season.  The upshot of all these options is that (assuming another starter is signed) you don't need to rely on the second string for the #7 reliever at the start of the season.
Spookie Wookie - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 09:58 AM EST (#248021) #
Farina had TJ in mid-July so I guess he is out of the mix for at least the first part of the season.

Andrew Carpenter and Evan Crawford might have a chance for bullpen roles.
92-93 - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 10:20 AM EST (#248026) #
It wouldn't surprise me if one of Villanueva, Litsch, and Perez had to start the year in the rotation due to an injury and Drabek still not being ready. You'd probably still want to add an arm or two but then again AA could be working within severe payroll constraints. But the money is there when the team needs it, right Paul Beeston?
John Northey - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 10:37 AM EST (#248028) #
For the pen I fully expect to see a few guys signed on the cheap who have potential but aren't showing it yet. Sign 3-4 of them, see 1-2 become solid seems to be the general rule. Ideally signed to AAA deals to fill that pen and have a battle in spring for who gets the ML paycheque.
dan gordon - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 11:42 AM EST (#248036) #

That pen won't cut it.  Factor in an injury or two, and you have a big problem.  They need to add 1 guy who can be used in the 8th inning, and 1 more, either a LOOGY or middle reliever.

I guess we should find out about Kelly Johnson shortly after noon.  The Fan was speculating about the Jays possibly completing a deal today for one of Beckham, Prado, or Jed Lowrie if Johnson declines arb.

BlueJayWay - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 11:44 AM EST (#248037) #
Isn't the arbitration deadline midnight?  ^^^^^
Lylemcr - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 11:52 AM EST (#248039) #

Santos and 2 supplemental picks for Fransisco, Rauch and Nestor Molina.  Not too bad, especially if you assume we have a great scouting staff that can turn those picks into something.  In the end, those picks keep the system loaded.

I still would like to see a veteran LHP in the pen.  Perez is good, but I would just like a little insurance for Santos.  I also think the Jays are going to get  1 more Starter. 

  • Sergio Santos
  • Veteran LHP
  • Casey Janssen
  • Joel Carreno
  • Carlos Villanueva
  • Luis Perez
  • Jesse LitschMcGowanCecil

Starters

  • Romero
  • New Starter
  • Alvarez
  • Morrow
  • CecilMcGowan

If we get Johnson at 2B, I am pretty happy with the team.

Paul D - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 11:56 AM EST (#248041) #

That pen won't cut it.  Factor in an injury or two, and you have a big problem. 

I disagree with this.  I think the minors are deep enough that you could bring someone up for two weeks.  The only potential weakness is maybe a second LHP, but I'm not sure how important that is with Janssen around.

dan gordon - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 11:57 AM EST (#248042) #
Is the arb deadline midnight?  The Fan said 11:59 a.m.  Maybe they got it wrong.  If so, push their story back by 12 hours.
rfan8 - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 11:57 AM EST (#248043) #

Scott Downs.  I think someone of his type is exactly what is needed to fill out the pen.  Brings experience and can get out lefties.

 

 

dan gordon - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 12:11 PM EST (#248045) #

I think the minors are deep enough...

Well, first of all, I wasn't really thinking about a 2 week injury.  More like 2 months plus.  Also, we must have different views on the reliability of the current guys.  I don't think you can count on Litsch, Perez, Carreno to all have good seasons.  I really like Santos, and Janssen seems to have recovered to something very close to his pre-injury form.  Villanueva was great as a reliever last year, but will he repeat that performance?    I think Litsch can be a decent middle guy, and maybe 1 of the other 2 makes it.  Still leaves a very thin pen.  The Jays don't have a bunch of 7, 8, 9 inning guys as starters.  They will need better quality in the pen than what they have if they want to contend.  Sure, there are guys who can be plugged in and do a half decent job, but that's not good enough.

John Northey - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 12:42 PM EST (#248048) #
Ah, so we need someone like Scott Downs. A guy who was released by a bottom feeding team, given a shot to succeed here. Downs was a 89 ERA+ starter for the Expos in their final season, then released. The Jays picked him up off the scrap heap and he had a 104 ERA+ mixed between starting and relieving. The next year his ERA+ went up to 112 during his 5 start/54 relief appearance season. Then he became a pure reliever and his ERA+ climbed over 200 for 2 straight years before dropping to 144 and 159 before going to LAA this past winter and pulling off a 285.

So yes, by all means lets hope AA digs into failed starters and gives them a shot.

Oh, that's not what you meant? You mean to go spend $5+ mil on a 'proven reliever' like Downs is now, or if you prefer Francisco or Rauch or ... ick.

This is why I say to chase down the quality arms who have been written off by others. Quantrill and League are two other examples here in Toronto as is Eric Gagne for the Dodgers and Rivera for the Yankees. The best relievers tend to be former starters. Chase those down, sign a few with live arms and see who shows off in the spring and who flops. Sign a few AAA deals. That is how you really build a pen. Doing the Mets method (vets, vets, vets for millions each) is a risky thing as you invest massively in the pen but will probably get no better results.
bpoz - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 01:02 PM EST (#248050) #
I agree with you dan gordon. If Santos & Janssen both get injured for 2+ months, the it looks very bad. I do not know how much any team anticipates this, but they must all know that it is possible.

I think mid June gives Drabek, Hutch and maybe another minor league starter time to show if they are closer to being ML ready. As well those 4-5 minor league relief pitchers that seem close now.
So hopefully Litsch & Carlos V can take up some slack and the manager just tells Cecil or McGowan that they are going to the pen or something like that. Some kind of balancing act between the pen & rotation will be required.
Boston got good results from Alredo Aceves last year, lucky them. Well we got good results from Carlos V.
I really like Janssen, Litsch & Carlos V for the 7 & 8 inning. I was afraid that if Rauch was signed, he would get the 8 automatically. So if we get a new guy for the 8th , he must be better than what we have or else we are not using our pen the best way. In ST last year Janssen was going to be hurt by the fact that he had an option left, but Purcey did not. I have always liked Janssen and I hope we get something for him before he leaves as a FA, due to his being not appreciated IMO.

I don't really care who our #7 & 8 are in the pen. I expect that to be a testing ground for prospects to show their stuff.
sam - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 01:14 PM EST (#248051) #
Today is the Rule 5 draft, I wouldn't be surprised if the Jays found someone to be their LH guy in the bullpen today.
Thomas - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 01:19 PM EST (#248052) #
I agree that pen isn't good enough (or perhaps isn't deep enough). Last year, the Jays had ten pitchers throw more than 25 innings for the team in relief. Admittedly, that was probably unusually high because of the three arms traded and it was only seven in 2010 (with another two throwing more than 15 innings of relief). However, it also illustrates how easy it can be to need a number of relief options if there are injuries, trades or underperformance. I except the Jays to trade for/sign another bullpen arm with a track record - perhaps on a short-term deal - to strengthen the pen.

As others have pointed out, a lefty would probably be nice as there is no other option to play platoon matchups if Perez struggles or gets hurt.

fozzy - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 01:23 PM EST (#248053) #
so, thoughts on the Yankees reportedly winning the Hiroyuki Nakajima posting?

If the rumoured number of $2 million was the winning bid, I wonder why more teams didn't bite. I'd much rather have Nakajima than Luis Valbuena - I wonder if Nakajima will sign knowing he's going to be a utility player.
Thomas - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 01:25 PM EST (#248054) #
This is why I say to chase down the quality arms who have been written off by others. Quantrill and League are two other examples here in Toronto as is Eric Gagne for the Dodgers and Rivera for the Yankees. The best relievers tend to be former starters.

John, I'm not following you here. None of those four players were written off by their teams. They were all former starters who became relievers with the team that drafted them. If your point is that the Jays should consider trying one of their SP prospects as a reliever if he fails, I agree. But, I'm not sure who all of these quality arms written off by others and available to sign to minor league contracts are. Downs is one example, but it never applied to any of these four pitchers in their formative years.

85bluejay - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 01:29 PM EST (#248055) #

A tip of the hat to SAM, who correctly opined that Marco Paddy was the key to the Santos-Molina trade.

I think the Rule V draft is Thursday morning & I'm also intrigued if the Jays will draft someone, likely a lefty - some interesting ones available including Cabral, whom Tampa  drafted as a rule v last year and the Jays claimed briefly - of course, they have to drop somebody as the roster is full.

Kyle Davies is probably trying to get a ML contract as a starter, if he fails I hope the Jays can sign him to a minor league with an invite - I think he has the makings of an effective BP guy.  

John Northey - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 01:37 PM EST (#248057) #
OK, I mixed a few in different ways but the point is that going for 'proven relievers' is not the most optimal way to build a pen.

Just in Toronto we had Downs & Quantrill both be amazing in relief after being had for peanuts after failing as starters. Failed starters who saved 15+ for the Jays include Eichhorn, Downs, Quantrill, Miguel Batista (went back to starting), Kelvim Escobar (went back to starting), and Duane Ward. Mike Timlin, Tom Henke, and Jason Frasor (among others) were starters at first in the minors.

Free agent relievers tend to be as variable as kids and ex-starters - remember Dennis Lamp, Gary Lavelle, Ken Dayley, Randy Myers, and BJ Ryan? Injuries or ineffectiveness hit each of them. Lamp, Lavelle, Myers and Ryan did provide one or two good years each but in each case the Jays had to eat salary for years of nothing.

While I'd love a Papelbon type guy if I ran a team I'd take the millions of dollars spread and use it on hitters or starting pitchers. Still lots of variability but nowhere near what relievers have. All too often you will get a Bill Caudill and then figure out he was blocking a young Tom Henke - hopefully before you blow too much in wins or dollars.
John Northey - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 01:44 PM EST (#248058) #
Thomas, as to the names listed...
Quantrill - 91 ERA+ before coming here, 92 once here - he was on edge of being dumped I'd think.
League - was tried as a starter in the minors, sucked (5.71 ERA in AAA) then worked well as a reliever
Eric Gagne - ERA+ of 85 and 84 before shifted to the pen
Rivera - 84 ERA+ as starter, moved to pen

None of them showed much as a starter - certainly not enough to make a team go 'untradeable' and all 4 were in danger of being trapped in AAA if something didn't change and quick. Rivera was entering his age 26 season after that horrid year starting - I'm sure a 1/2 decent offer could've pried him away from the Yankees if anyone guessed what was there - he did well in the minors but it took him 6 years to reach the majors - not normal for a HOF'er.
smcs - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 02:37 PM EST (#248062) #
I'm sure a 1/2 decent offer could've pried [Rivera] away from the Yankees if anyone guessed what was there

As the story goes, the Yanks were considering trading Rivera or Bob Wickman for Felix Fermin in spring training in 1996 because the Yanks weren't convinced Derek Jeter was ready to play SS.
Thomas - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 02:39 PM EST (#248063) #
John, I wasn't arguing that they weren't ineffective starters before becoming relievers. My point was that none of them were released and available to sign on a minor league contract, which is how you advocate building the edges of this bullpen. That's a perfectly fine viewpoint and one I can understand and somewhat agree with.

But, it's unrealistic to expect to get a bunch of "quality arms who have been written off by others." You don't know that Rivera could have been had for a half-decent offer, as maybe the Yankees saw really positive signs from his cutter. However, I won't argue it isn't unlikely that he probably could have been, depending on what half-decent is. But that would still have involved trading an asset for somebody, as Rivera clearly hadn't been written off by the Yankees.

Nevertheless, you're only remembering the successes and forgetting about the dozens of guys like Sean Henn, who went from being a failed starting pitching prospect to a veteran Triple-A reliever.
Thomas - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 02:40 PM EST (#248064) #
However, I won't argue it isn't unlikely that he probably could have been, depending on what half-decent is.

What an ugly sentence.

gabrielthursday - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 03:03 PM EST (#248065) #
"in 1996... the Yanks weren't convinced Derek Jeter was ready to play SS."

And they would have been right.
greenfrog - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 03:13 PM EST (#248067) #
I see David Ortiz has accepted arbitration. Good for him - it should give him leverage in negotiating a better deal with the Sox. Worst case, he gets a decent one-year contract for 2012. I guess there wasn't a big market for him outside of Beantown.
Flex - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 03:32 PM EST (#248069) #
I guess there wasn't a big market for him outside of Beantown.

Apparently not when teams were going to lose a draft pick to sign him. The same can't be said for Kelly Johnson though, so it's a bit surprising the tweets have him likely to accept arb with the Jays.
Ryan Day - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 03:50 PM EST (#248071) #
Johnson had a pretty lousy year, so he might see a one-year arbitration contract as a good way to re-establish his value, then hit the open market next year.
TamRa - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 03:55 PM EST (#248072) #
couple of yall have mentioned the Rule 5 draft

If I'm not seriously mistaken the roster is full. the jays can't draft anyone in the major league portion of the draft, though they could in theory trade for a guy someone else drafted.

That said, such a player would be a fringy raw player you had to carry, not a key solution to a problem (other than maybe Ryan Flaherty to be a candidate to play 2B)
Lylemcr - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 04:19 PM EST (#248075) #

According to Shi of Sportsnet, AA thinks it is highly likely the KJ returns.  It is not like AA to talk like that, so I would think it is close to a done deal.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/anthopoulos-good-chance-kelly-johnson-returns.html#disqus_thread

 

John Northey - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 04:21 PM EST (#248076) #
However, I won't argue it isn't unlikely that he probably could have been, depending on what half-decent is.

That sentence made me think of Pinocchio from the Shrek movies where he is trying to avoid saying a lie by dancing around with double and triple negatives.

As to the failures - oh yeah, there are tons of those too. Still, the risk-reward ratio, imo, is far more favourable at this stage of the success cycle to sign cheap and cheerful than to go for expensive and moody. Once the Jays win 90, then they can go out and buy a Proven Reliever™
greenfrog - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 04:28 PM EST (#248077) #
I'm kind of hoping KJ is back (on a one- or two-year deal, maybe with a third-year club option). He's a pretty solid option at 2B and at 29, is still reasonably young. With six picks in the first two rounds of the 2012 draft, the Jays are pretty well set up on that front. The team has cost-controlled options at tons of positions, so it's not as if they can't afford him.

Signing Johnson would leave 1B and the starting rotation (and maybe a lefty reliever) as the key areas to be addressed. Trade for Votto, go big on Darvish, and voila! Instant fearsome contender.
Forkball - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 05:02 PM EST (#248081) #
Apparently not when teams were going to lose a draft pick to sign him. The same can't be said for Kelly Johnson though, so it's a bit surprising the tweets have him likely to accept arb with the Jays.

Wait, teams don't want to line up to pay Kelly Johnson, coming off a .300 OBP year, more than the $6 million he'll likely get in arbitration?  But he's the best 2B in free agency this year!

I always thought it was crazy to expect to get picks out of Johnson under the old system, but now no one is touching him with no compensation tied to him.  Granted, he may have been hurt by his status not being clarified right away (when Hill and other 2B were signing) but clearly no team is viewing him as a $6 million player or someone worth signing to a decent 2-year deal.

Assuming he accepts arbitration, the Jays still could cut him loose a la Reed Johnson (unless that quietly changed with the new CBA).
Subversive - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 05:31 PM EST (#248082) #

Trade for Votto? Is there anything to this, or is this just a desperate random wish? How about "sign Fielder, go big on Darvish, instant fearsome contendor!"? :)

85bluejay - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 06:03 PM EST (#248085) #
This being the last year to get compensation without offering a significant qualifying offer, I would rather have gotten the 2 picks - it's interesting that with all the multi-year contracts middle infielders got this year, that Johnson has to accept arbitration 
85bluejay - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 06:09 PM EST (#248087) #
When the Braves released Johnson 2 years ago and the Jays wanted him to play LF, he said no, so it's interesting to hear AA talk about playing him in LF - maybe he's saying, don't accept arbitration KJ? 
ayjackson - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 06:11 PM EST (#248088) #

Looks like it's Beuhrle to the Marlins and Pujols to the Cards.

My number one wish for this week remains a number 2 starter.  Hopefully enough seeds are planted to close a deal this weekend.

ayjackson - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 06:14 PM EST (#248089) #
Susan Slusser has tweeted that two (!) sources have told her the Jays are in on Gio Gonzalez.  [Two sources?  Does she think she's some kind of journalist?]
Kelekin - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 06:19 PM EST (#248090) #
While the bullpen appears to have five or six shoe-ins, I really don't want to see bullpen arms filling in to the rotation this year.  Villanueva and Perez need to stay in the bullpen.

I'd be okay with us signing one more arm.  And I'm in agreeance, I think Carreno is going to be a quality middle reliever.

ayjackson - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 06:24 PM EST (#248091) #

Just saw a tweet that while Marlins are out, Pujols still has three other offers over $200m.  That's crazy.  Just trying to keep StL honest, I imagine.

Also saw a suggestion that there is a deal on the table around Beckham with CWS awaiting Johnson's decision.  If it has one of our LF's going the other way, it might go ahead anyway, I imagine.

The rumours are getting crazy.  And someone has fallen into the reflecting pond!

92-93 - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 06:43 PM EST (#248093) #
Where did you see this suggestion? Or are you referring to what I said in the other thread?
ayjackson - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 06:56 PM EST (#248094) #

Where did you see this suggestion? Or are you referring to what I said in the other thread?

Yeah.  Heh heh.  Sometimes that happens....surfing around so much, don't realize you just read that in the other thread.  Uh, ooops?

Thomas - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 07:03 PM EST (#248096) #
Still, the risk-reward ratio, imo, is far more favourable at this stage of the success cycle to sign cheap and cheerful than to go for expensive and moody.

I still think you're overestimating both the quality of arms available on minor league deals and the ease with which Toronto could apparently lure this hypothetical quality arm to the team over his numerous other suitors. I agree that the team should be cautious when spending on a reliever, but they aren't that far from contending, in theory, and some veterans will be a better bet than Magnuson and company.

I'm not enamoured with the list of free agent relievers, but nor do I see a lot of intriguing pitchers on Baseball America's list of minor league free agents. One name who interests me in this vein is Chuck James, who used to be a starter in Atlanta and has put together a couple of decent seasons as a relievers in Triple-A since making the transition in 2010. He's also a southpaw and could provide some further depth from the left side.

92-93 - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 07:04 PM EST (#248098) #
Well I dug this up from @GloBlair: No idea. Beckham still a possibility; might require Snider acc to White Sox source.
sam - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 07:19 PM EST (#248099) #
I'm not really a big fan of a Beckham for Snider swap. I get that a change of scenery is probably the best thing for both these players and we have need at 2B and a surplus at LF, but Snider ultimately brings more to the table than Beckham. Also Beckham has had two full seasons to make a go of it and the production really hasn't been there. I still hold out hope that Snider plays a full season this year and puts up numbers.

I think this is also a deal that could be made in Spring Training.
sam - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 07:29 PM EST (#248100) #
Also, re Shi Davidi's last tweet. Am I the only one who gets a little pissed that every time fans gripe about payroll AA brings up how Beeston asked AA if he was interested in Cliff Lee or John Lackey or Jason Bay? I mean, they weren't players for those guys and by all accounts they didn't make an offer, so what's the point? It shows that what, the Jays will discuss the possibility? I find it kind of insulting that AA seems to be thinking that well if I bring this up, it's proof that we're going to spend big money one of these days on a free agent and fans will acquiesce. It's really not.

I have to say, I'm quite disappointed in AA's payroll comments. He basically blunted the good news of a very good trade and put a damper on a lot of my enthusiasm for the ball club.
greenfrog - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 07:47 PM EST (#248102) #
The walks are a bit high, but I would love to see AA acquire Gio Gonzalez. Romero, Gonzalez, Alvarez, Morrow - now that is a rotation I would like to see. How about Snider, Gose and Hutch for Gio?
85bluejay - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 07:51 PM EST (#248103) #
Sam - absolutely agree about your comments regarding what AA said about payroll - If the moves they make in the coming year smack of too much payroll consideration, I'm done attending games.
bpoz - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 08:02 PM EST (#248106) #
I hope AA continues to be patient. I am pleased with everything he has accomplished so far.

I like the ML team to grow into a contender as the youth matures. So Far:-
1) I see 8 starting position players that can produce offensively now and still get better in many cases. 2B will sort itself out eventually. 2B is our 9th hitter.
2) Morrow, McGowan, Alvarez & Drabek are 4 power arms with some ML experience. They have to be given the chance to succeed.
3) The pen may be the strongest we have had in a while.
4) There is quality depth every where but middle infield.
sam - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 08:19 PM EST (#248107) #
Gio would be a nice addition but that's a trade that's really going to raid a farm system. I'd try McGuire, Snider, Jimenez, and Jenkins, but that's probably way too little. I'd imagine they'd be asking for Snider/Thames, McGuire/Hutchison, and Gose/d'Arnaud, and one of those Lansing outfielders.
sam - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 08:26 PM EST (#248108) #
But you know, we'd only have him for four years of control and three of them he'll be due significant awards through arbitration so probably not going to happen.
Dewey - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 08:43 PM EST (#248109) #
And I'm in agreeance, . . .

No you’re not:  but you might be in agreement.   (Hope things improve there soon.)
TamRa - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 08:57 PM EST (#248111) #
"When the Braves released Johnson 2 years ago and the Jays wanted him to play LF, he said no, so it's interesting to hear AA talk about playing him in LF - maybe he's saying, don't accept arbitration KJ? "

My first thought as well.
greenfrog - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 09:29 PM EST (#248112) #
Does anyone else think that the Marlins' spending spree isn't going to end well? They might be competitive for a year or two (maybe), but how are all of these mega-contracts going to look in 2014 and beyond? I'm glad that AA is taking the opposite approach of building the team organically, although it would be nice if we could add one or two pieces via free agency when the time is right.
btfsplk325 - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 10:08 PM EST (#248116) #
Tamra wrote, "If I'm not seriously mistaken the roster is full. the jays can't draft anyone in the major league portion of the draft, though they could in theory trade for a guy someone else drafted."

I believe that I read a comment somewhere attributed to Anthopoulos to the effect that he would only open a spot on the roster if one of a few players he likes in the Rule 5 dropped to the Jays draft position. It didn't sound like he expected that to happen. I think other threads on this board have discussed which marginal players would be dropped from the roster in case spots are required for free agent signings. Unless I am mistaken, a spot will be needed for Kelly Johnson if he in fact accepts arbitration and is re-signed.
Mick Doherty - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 10:31 PM EST (#248118) #

agreeance

Actually, this is a proper word, though rarely used in North America -- it's quite common in Australia and New Zealand, for example, and it is not "wrong" per se here. It is a synonym for the far more common "agreement."

 

smcs - Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 10:50 PM EST (#248119) #
I still think you're overestimating both the quality of arms available on minor league deals and the ease with which Toronto could apparently lure this hypothetical quality arm to the team over his numerous other suitors.

Well, they do it every year, just there aren't many guys who develop into major league arms. The arms that they sign aren't quality arms, otherwise they would be getting more than a minor league deal. Shawn Camp and Scott Downs are best case examples, but it is far more common to get, say, Andrew Carpenter, Cole Kimball, Zech Zinicola, Merkin Valdez, Wil Ledezma, Kyle Davies, Chad Gaudin, Willie Collazo, Winston Abreu, Mike Hinckley or Brian Stokes when picking guys up off the scrap-heap (minor league deals, waivers, Rule V).

The hope is that the coaches at these players' previous stops either didn't see something or couldn't teach something that the Jays coaches can see or can teach. I know that Shawn Camp developed into a very good reliever after he was taught how to throw a change up. The cost is very small, but the benefits could be decently large.
85bluejay - Thursday, December 08 2011 @ 12:24 AM EST (#248121) #

Reading media reports, Kelly Johnson's decision to accept arbitration has surprised and I think disappointed the Jays - losing those 2 picks hurt and it may scuttle any plans to acquire a Gordon Beckham unless the Jays can dump Johnson on someone (hello Miami !!) - I hoping

Also very happy to see AA refer to the "Texas Model" as his approach to building a contender - keep adding talent and when the on field team  shows it's a contender, then become aggressive /overpay for proven talent & FA.   

sam - Thursday, December 08 2011 @ 12:28 AM EST (#248123) #
I've enjoyed Shi Davidi's writing over the past couple days. I found that during the season he'd too often write pieces that toed the party line when it came to AA, Rogers, and the Jays. However, in the past couple days he seems to best articulate Jays fans displeasure in recent events. I think he gets it right when he says the Jays will not be bidding on Darvish in light of recent events.
Magpie - Thursday, December 08 2011 @ 01:17 AM EST (#248125) #
"in 1996... the Yanks weren't convinced Derek Jeter was ready to play SS."

And they would have been right.


Someone refresh my memory. Who was the shortstop for the 1996 world champions? I could have sworn...
TamRa - Thursday, December 08 2011 @ 04:11 AM EST (#248135) #
I think Darvish is the exception that proves the rule.

All this poor-mouthing, as Alex explained, was simply a message to over-aggressive agents that the Jays are not the Toronto Drunken Sailors.

Darvish is, on talent and age and potential team control, unique among free agents, plus he fits exactly the one sort of player that AA and Farrell have repeatedly said they want to bring in this winter. Further enhanced by the fact that at least winning the post on him keeps him out of NY and Boston.

I expect Alex is all over this.
Sano - Thursday, December 08 2011 @ 04:42 AM EST (#248136) #
So all this talk about "parameters" and "boundaries" is just a ruse then?
bpoz - Thursday, December 08 2011 @ 10:37 AM EST (#248155) #
Maybe Sano, but how can you tell? But I believe it is a ruse.

AA has proven to me that he is very smart. For example:-
1) All those scouts & draft picks & quite a few very talented Int'l FAs.
2) He has acquired 3 potential V good prospects in Lawrie, Morrow & Gose & 3 potential V good ML players in Y Escobar, Rasmus & Santos.
3) The Wells deal.

So those are a few of my reasons for thinking AA is smart, cool & in control regarding his goals.

He works very hard at his job. I believe that spending time on responding to rumors & speculation that most of the time never becomes a reality is wasting his time. Nobody likes to be rude, OK some people seem to be rude, bossy, overbearing etc... but is it intentional? I DEFINITELY feel AA has never been like that.

So while concentrating on his texting and stuff, I believe all this media hype can be distracting to people. That does not mean that AA IS distracted only that it can be distracting. IMO AA may not mind if another GM gets distracted by the media, but I think he would mind if any of his people are responding to the media, when he would prefer that they be available & fully in focus to respond to his questions regarding others team's players. Even some players deep in another teams minors.
AA also said that he tries to get information or be aware of what other teams are doing regarding each other and not the Jays, just in case there is an opportunity available.

IMO some media people say things either without thinking or willingly express half truths & manipulations. How else is all that incorrect information getting out there.
Dewey - Thursday, December 08 2011 @ 10:45 AM EST (#248158) #
agreeance, or not

I sometimes think I have my very own censor board down there in liberal ol’ Texas.   Like to know what your sources are, Mick.  The OED cites the word as "obsolete",  having lived from roughly 1540 ’til the early 1700’s.  The last cited reference is 1714. 

And who exactly says it’s “quite common” in Oz and NZ?   Stone the crows!  Oi never heard it there, mate. 
JB21 - Thursday, December 08 2011 @ 10:52 AM EST (#248159) #

Pujols to the Angles. 10 Years 250-260 Million says Yahoo! Sports.

WOW.

greenfrog - Thursday, December 08 2011 @ 11:17 AM EST (#248164) #
Dewey, I don't think your comments were being censored in this case - just challenged.
ayjackson - Thursday, December 08 2011 @ 11:39 AM EST (#248167) #

Darvish is, on talent and age and potential team control, unique among free agents, plus he fits exactly the one sort of player that AA and Farrell have repeatedly said they want to bring in this winter. Further enhanced by the fact that at least winning the post on him keeps him out of NY and Boston.

It's also $100m+ on someone who has never pitched against MLB hitters.  We're usually reluctant to spend on pitchers who haven't pitched in the AL East.

It just seems like a huge risk to me.  I'm not comfortable with it.

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