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MLB owners add two playoffs teams for 2013

Via http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=380673 the owners have decided to both add 2 more playoff teams (details to follow) and to move the Astros to the AL West.

Figure most everyone here will like that.
Jays Odds Of Reaching The Playoffs Jump | 64 comments | Create New Account
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China fan - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 02:32 PM EST (#246805) #

From the linked report on the TSN website:  "Selig said he hopes the expanded playoffs can start next year, but he said the specifics are being worked out. The players' association favours the move."

So it sounds like there's a chance, albeit perhaps a small one, that the additional Wild Card could be added in 2012, rather than 2013.

Ron - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 02:41 PM EST (#246806) #
As a Jays, Yankees, and Red Sox fan, this is great news. I could one day see all 3 of my teams in the playoffs in the same season.

What happens first, the Cubs win the World Series or the Yankees miss the playoffs?

John Northey - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 02:42 PM EST (#246807) #
True enough, but that would almost require the Astros to change leagues immediately which would be a scheduling nightmare at this stage (season tickets sold, etc.).

Of course, we could get away for a year like that - not like MLB hasn't done weird stuff before.
Beyonder - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 02:49 PM EST (#246809) #

To be clear though, this proposal doesn't create an additional wildcard so much as split the existing one in two, correct?

Could be very frustrating if we finally get to the point where we are good enough to earn a wildcard under the old system and find ourselves out of the Divisional Series after losing a one game playoff.

 

greenfrog - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 02:57 PM EST (#246811) #
A one-game playoff would basically be a coin toss. The hot team/starting pitcher likely wins. Still, at least you have a better chance of getting in the door. This is pretty big news for Jays fans.
Jays4Life - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 03:06 PM EST (#246813) #
Very nice!  This is a great addition for fans and should offer hope for a lot more fans (especially Jays fans!!!)
John Northey - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 03:26 PM EST (#246815) #
One game to decide if you go on or not is always exciting. Although Jays two times having it - 1985 game 7 and 1987 game 162 - didn't turn out so well :P

A big question out there also is the 15-15 team leagues. Many are wondering what the schedule will look like as roughly 30 interleague games per year per team will be required (two teams playing everyday). One idea is to make it balanced - so the Jays play the other 14 teams roughly 9-10 times each and have 30 games vs the NL. That would be a mess for schedules though as it doesn't work out evenly (3 3 game series and a 4 game would be a mess, tons of 2 game series would not work well either).

Probably will be a modified version of today. 18 games vs division, 6 vs others in league, 6 vs one division in other league. So a home/away 3 game series vs each of 3 divisions (AL West, AL Central, NL something) and 3 home/away series against the other 4 teams in the division. Given Bud's frustrating determination on 'special rivals' we'll probably see teams lose a series vs an NL team so they can play whoever (NY Yankees vs Mets always, etc.) forcing the Jays to get extras vs the Phillies instead of, say, the Pirates. Better for fans to watch, worse for the won-lost record.
Forkball - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 03:37 PM EST (#246817) #

I like it for a few reasons.

First, it gives teams the incentive to win their division now.  These days many teams will coast down the stretch knowing that if they don’t win the division there’s no real difference being the WC.  No team with a chance to win the division is going to want to be a wild card if they have the chance to avoid it.

Wild card teams should be at a disadvantage in the playoffs and this does that.  Plus, pitting two against each other for one game with the winner advancing will be compelling viewing (and there will probably be more game 163s now as well.  If there’s a tie for the division would they have a playoff?).

And a one game WC playoff isn’t going to change the length of the postseason.

Not to mention the Jays chances (and everyone else for that matter) of making the playoffs increases.

Will there be a balanced schedule?

actionjackson - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 03:56 PM EST (#246818) #
Meh. I'd be more excited if it were announced that divisions were being scrapped, inter-league was being ditched, and the schedule was being balanced with the top four teams in each league making the playoffs on an even footing. None of this play-in game garbage. Obviously you'd have to keep an even number of teams in each league to do it, but it sounds like Houston doesn't want to switch to the AL any way. I see this as a cheap funhouse mirror kind of trick, designed to placate fans in markets that haven't tasted the playoffs in a while, when really it just gives the Yankees and Red Sox a near guarantee of making the playoffs. Window dressing at best, cheap trick at worst. Thank you for continuing on your amazing run of destroying my favourite game FOX. Bah humbug. Feel free to try to convince me otherwise, but I'm very skeptical of the true motivations for such a move.
Thomas - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 04:12 PM EST (#246820) #
As a Jays, Yankees, and Red Sox fan...

This sentence does not compute.

Like, seriously, how does that work? Wouldn't liking one of the latter two teams - or the Jays - have instilled a hate of the other franchise in you? All three teams are in the same division. Do you do it just to ensure you have a team to root for each postseason?

James W - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 04:19 PM EST (#246822) #
The rumoured plan, according to Jayson Stark, would be 18 games against your division, 6 games against the rest of your league, 3 games against each team in the same division in the opposite league (e.g. AL East always plays the NL East), and then 3 games against each team in one of the divisions in the opposite league (e.g. AL East would play the NL Central one year, the NL West the next year.)
China fan - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 04:22 PM EST (#246823) #
The addition of a 2nd Wild Card spot wouldn't have meant anything to the Jays in 2011: they would have still been 9 games behind the 2nd WC slot.  But in 2010, they would have been only 4 games out of the 2nd WC slot, so it would have been a much more interesting season.
Mick Doherty - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 04:43 PM EST (#246824) #

This sentence does not compute.

My thoughts exactly, Thomas. I am a Yankees, Jays, Rangers fan -- but can't comrehend being a Red Sox fan. that's anathema to Yankee fandom.  I am sure the reverse is also true.

 

greenfrog - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 04:54 PM EST (#246825) #
actionjackson, the new plan would give Boston and NY a good chance at claiming a division title and/or a wild card spot every year, but each WC team will now be forced to play a one-game playoff instead of going directly to the ALDS. So we're likely to see Boston and NY hovering around the pennant race every year (as we do now), but it might result in a slightly more level playing field overall, with more teams in the mix in September and early October.

The unbalanced schedule will continue to be a thorn in the Jays' side, though.
JustinD - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 05:09 PM EST (#246827) #
I really agree with ayjackson here. I'm not a fan of this at all.

If this system was in place this past season, that epic Boston collapse would have meant nothing because the whole time we would have known, well Boston has to play Tampa in a 1 game playoff anyways.

Same thing with the Braves collapse.

I feel like the wild card races are more interesting than the division races. It does rightfully give more power to a division winner, but takes away the excitement that last years awesome wild races provided. And of course does insure the Yankees and Red Sox will always be in the playoffs.

Would love love love to see a balanced schedule with the top 4 teams making it.

China fan - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 05:18 PM EST (#246829) #

In other news -- have the Jays found the next Sergio Santos?  They've signed relief pitcher Jerry Gil, a former top prospect in the Arizona system -- as a shortstop!  He actually made it to the majors briefly as a shortstop, batting only .174.  Then, like Santos, he was converted from shortstop to pitcher, and managed an ERA of 3.59 at the AAA level in the Reds system in 2011 as a 29-year-old. 

Details are by Marc Hulet here:  http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2011/11/17/2569569/jays-sign-big-arm-to-minor-league-deal

Glevin - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 05:43 PM EST (#246832) #
"The rumoured plan, according to Jayson Stark, would be 18 games against your division, 6 games against the rest of your league, 3 games against each team in the same division in the opposite league (e.g. AL East always plays the NL East), and then 3 games against each team in one of the divisions in the opposite league (e.g. AL East would play the NL Central one year, the NL West the next year.)"

I have the same problem with this that I have now. The Jays' biggest rival when I was growing up (and their biggest natural rival) is Detroit yet they only play them six times a year. Cleveland is also a natural rival. Also six times a year. These are cities Jays fans can drive to easily for a weekend and vice versa. I would prefer to see two divisions with top 2 in each division making it with best third place team playing the worst 2nd place team in a one-game playoff.

Divisions
EAST
Baltimore
Boston
Cleveland
Detroit
New York
Tampa
Toronto

WEST
CHI
KC
Hou
LAA
Oak
Min
Sea
Tex
bball12 - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 07:20 PM EST (#246837) #
At this rate - in about 5 years - every crappy team will be in the "hunt for the playoffs"

I hate it.

A reward for mediocrity.

bpoz - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 07:35 PM EST (#246841) #
So every year NYY or Boston if in the playoffs MUST play a 1 game playoff. I love it.

NYY 99 Win Division winner
Boston 98 Win WC....Losing 1 game playoff in extra innings.

Even better they are both WC winners and someone goes home after 1 game. Sweet!!
BlueJayWay - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 07:52 PM EST (#246845) #
I like this.  I'm 31 now so I'd like to see the Jays in some kind of playoff race before I die.  This might be the only way.

I think the interesting thing about this is what NYY and Boston do.  They've been to content to chug along, not really caring if they win the division or WC, since they're practically the same.

This play-in thing really incentivizes winning the division again.  We could see the nuclear arms race between the Yanks and Bosox heat up.

BlueJayWay - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 07:56 PM EST (#246847) #
If this system was in place this past season, that epic Boston collapse would have meant nothing because the whole time we would have known, well Boston has to play Tampa in a 1 game playoff anyways.

Same thing with the Braves collapse.

I feel like the wild card races are more interesting than the division races. It does rightfully give more power to a division winner, but takes away the excitement that last years awesome wild races provided. And of course does insure the Yankees and Red Sox will always be in the playoffs.


Yeah, but that's just the way things worked out this year.  There have been plenty of years where the WC race was a real snooze, but if there were two wildcards, if would have been great.  It's a mistake to just look at the way things happened in 2011.
Mike D - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 08:26 PM EST (#246849) #
Would love love love to see a balanced schedule with the top 4 teams making it.

I don't agree with everything JustinD wrote, but I agree wholeheartedly with this. De-alignment is the fairest way forward.
Mylegacy - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 09:08 PM EST (#246853) #
SO...

I apologize - I've already had my first wee dram for the day...

There are now 4 Wild card teams? The two like always and two more...except the two more (one form each league?) now play a sudden death game with each other to see which goes on? The guy that goes on could be in the AL or NL? They would then go on against the AL or NL?

IF - there is no balanced schedule doesn't that make us even less likely to get to the playoffs - because - say - the Yanks finish first and get the Division spot in the playoffs - Boston finishes second and gets the (old) Wild Card - we finish third and get nada - on account of either Detroit or Chicago or Oakland (or whomever) from one of the easier divisions having a better record when they finished second in their division than the third team in the AL East. Eh?

I really shouldn't be allowed to drink on days when new things are happening - Scotch and Old-Timers-Disease sure take their toll.

dan gordon - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 09:57 PM EST (#246854) #

There is no need for each team to play 30 interleague games.  The arithmetic there is totally out of whack.  If each team plays 30 interleague games, times 30 teams, that's 900, divided by 2 (2 teams in each game, of course) and you get 450 games.  That's roughly 3 times as many as you need, and would require 2 or 3 interleague games to be played every day.  What you need is roughly 162 interleague games - the same as if the 2 "extra" teams were playing in the same league.  One almost every day, with some off days.  That works out as follows - 162 times 2 teams is 324, divide by 30 teams is 11 interleague games each.  So there is absolutely no need to reduce the number of games against the non-divisional teams in your own league to 6.  That would be nuts, and would give the teams in the AL Central and West an enormous advantage at the 2 AL wild card spots.   Would probably make it tougher for the Jays to make the playoffs than the current system.  Especially if they end up playing more vs the NL East than the other AL teams.  Can't these bozos figure out simple stuff like that?  

Ron - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 10:40 PM EST (#246855) #

This sentence does not compute.

Like, seriously, how does that work? Wouldn't liking one of the latter two teams - or the Jays - have instilled a hate of the other franchise in you? All three teams are in the same division. Do you do it just to ensure you have a team to root for each postseason?

The Jays are my number 1 team out of the 3. When the Yankees and Red Sox play each other, I don't really have a preference. I've been a fan of all 3 teams for a long time now and it's not due to the reason that I would have a team to cheer for in the playoffs every season.


TamRa - Thursday, November 17 2011 @ 10:45 PM EST (#246856) #
I don't give a crap about the rest if they don't get closer to a balanced schedule. Absent that the jays (and O's and yes the Rays) are getting screwed over.

if you normalized all series to 3 games, then there are 54 series in a season; if there are 15 teams er league then if each plays 3 inter-league series that leaves nine which implies some would play more series out of league than others. For purposes which shall become apparent, i'm going to arbitrarily make one of these a 4 game set.


Leaving that aside, and assuming three series, you are still going to have the imbalance of bias towards certain matchups.

I propose that your three series be against the three teams closest to your record the previous season.

(for example, for the Jays in 2012 that would be Washington, Cincinnati and LA, for NY it would be Philly, Milwaukee and Arizona)

that leaves 152 games in a season unaccounted for. two home and home against the ten teams in the other divisions (a 3 game and a 2 game at home and on the road)  in your league make up 100 games leaving 52, divided by 4 means 13 games against in division teams

Which obviously doesn't work - but if you play 8 games each against the out-of-division teams, then you are right back to 18 games apiece against in-division - too high to suit me.

Wipe the slate clean and assume 12 games against each team in your league and you get to too many....(12x4) + (10x10) = 148 which requires either a shorter season or some system which gets you 14 inter-league games.

Still, I'm not sure how to make it work but I'd rather have 12 against in division and 10 against out-division and the season length adjusted to ever how many inter-league games you need to make it work, as to have to play in-division teams 18 times a year.

Maybe 4 games (2 home/2 road) against each of 3 reams in the other league? Would it really suck so bad to have 160 games in a season?


Not like Uncle Bud remotely cares. He has a patent excuse now to gin up 18 Yankee/Red Sox high ratings games a year, why would he want to change that?


Thomas - Friday, November 18 2011 @ 04:58 AM EST (#246860) #
I've been a fan of all 3 teams for a long time now...

But how? I'm honestly curious, because I can't recall meeting ever someone who is a fan of both of the Yankees and Red Sox. Didn't supporting whichever of those teams you liked first instil a dislike of the other franchise in you? Didn't supporting the Jays instil a dislike of both franchises in you?

scottt - Friday, November 18 2011 @ 05:57 AM EST (#246862) #
It does increase the odds of making the playoffs, but I think it reduces the odds of making it to the ALCS.

If you go through a one game playoff with your best pitcher, that pratically takes him out of the best of 5 series that follow.

Do you fire a manager if he makes one bad decision in a 1 game playoff? Maybe not, but I can't see the fan base growing from quick playoff exits.

2011 had epic wild card races and unpredictable matches. With this we might see 12 teams qualified in early September and predictable series.

We'll see.
AWeb - Friday, November 18 2011 @ 09:25 AM EST (#246865) #

As a fan about the same age as the Jays franchise itself, I can see how you end up a Red Sox fan and a Yankees fan. In the 1980's, I had no particular idea that the Yankees and Red Sox were great rivals who hated one another. In fact, I'd guess that this wasn't the case at all in that decade, since the Yankees were consistently mediocre and the Red Sox one of many decent teams. The Jays were better than both for a good long time, and the 1980's were notable for a total lack on continuity. Who were the AL teams in the WS since I could start vaguely remembering? Milwaukee, Baltimore, Detroit, KC, Boston, Minnesota, Oaklandx3 - there was a team worthy of hating. Otherwise, it was a mixed bag, Until Oakland in the late 1980's, none of the WS teams even threatened to become consistently great. The NL was much the same - the opponents to the teams I listed - St. Louis, Philadelphia, San Diego, St Louis, New York, Atlanta, LA, Cincy, San Francisco. Playoff teams who lost were a similar wide mix of teams. The Jays winning two in a row was a monumental achievement, since in my memory, no one ever won twice in a row, and only Oakland even made it to the end twice in a row. Until Atlanta and New York started winning every single year...

The Jays were my favourite, followed by the Expos, then the Red Sox. I only really disliked the Tigers, Royals, and the A's - the Yankees weren't on the radar at all, frankly. It never occurred to me that I was supposed to dislike this team of overpaid underachievers with a great franchise history of legends. Loving baseball history can make you a Yankees fan - Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio...there are a lot of great stories there.

Lylemcr - Friday, November 18 2011 @ 10:17 AM EST (#246867) #

As a Jays fan, I like it.  As a baseball purist, I don't like it.

Statistically, there is such variance in games.  Even the Mariners had a winning streak last year.

There are 162 games in a season!  It is designed to be a marathon only to have the world series won by a team sqeaking in the playoffs. 

 

SK in NJ - Friday, November 18 2011 @ 10:36 AM EST (#246868) #

So conceivably the fifth best team in each league could meet in the World Series? Awful.

Over the last five years, the "2nd Wild Card team" (the best team other than division winners and WC) in the American League would have won 88, 89, 87, 89, and 90 games respectively. Over that span, only in 2011 was the difference between the Wild Card team and the "2nd Wild Card team" less than six wins (this past season where Tampa won the WC by one game over Boston). So basically, MLB will be rewarding a team that could be five or six wins inferior to the actual Wild Card winner a chance to move on to a playoff berth that they did not even earn......and in a one game sudden death round, no less! Why not just flip a damn coin and decide who moves on to the ALDS?

I sincerely hope the next time the Jays make the playoffs it will be by winning the East. I would hate for them to win the Wild Card only to lose the sudden death game and have a playoff berth taken away from them.

Between this and taking away Type A/B compensation, Selig has done absolutely nothing to bridge the gap between the have's and have not's. If anything, he has made it worse.

BlueJayWay - Friday, November 18 2011 @ 11:03 AM EST (#246870) #
So conceivably the fifth best team in each league could meet in the World Series? Awful.

That can already happen now.  Before the wildcard era, too.
SK in NJ - Friday, November 18 2011 @ 11:24 AM EST (#246872) #

Before the Wild Card the best team in the East played the best team in the West in each league. Pretty cut and dry. Sure the 2nd place team in some cases could have been better than the 1st place team in another league, but that was part of the divisional format. Now we will have five playoff teams in each league and ten teams total. As opposed to four total before the Wild Card and eight total before this new change comes into effect.

I don't know, I'd rather win something that was more difficult to obtain than wait for rules to change to make the obstacle easier. Again, I hope the Jays win the AL East the next time they make the playoffs. I won't complain if they win the World Series as the 2nd WC team, but it won't have the same meaning to me as it would have with the regular Wild Card format. Making the hurdle easier doesn't make jumping over it more rewarding. If anything, it cheapens it.

AWeb - Friday, November 18 2011 @ 11:24 AM EST (#246873) #

http://skepticalsports.com/?p=2595

This is a great article explaining why the one-game playoff might be the fairest format to allow a marginally better team the greatest advantage, at least without skewing the distribution of home/away games in other formats (such as five-game series being 4 home, 1 away). It sounds wrong, but a five-game or seven-game series is also a fairly useless measure of team superiority. Earning "home field WC" will be a significant advantage, as much as anything is in a single baseball game. It had never occurred to me that one game could be more favourable to the best team than five or seven games just because the one game is at home.

The main advantage that gets cited is that the division winners don't have to burn their best starter in a one-game playoff, and hence they gain an advantage. I'm not convinced this is really much of an advantage in practice, since WC teams may not be able to use their ace in the one-gamer (depending on the race), division winners also might not be able to, for a lot of teams the difference between #1 and #2 is pretty minimal, and teams will still end up using 4 guys anyway. "Setting your rotation", especially at the end of 200+ IP for them, is way over-rated (sure didn't help Philadelphia).

The only way to get the best teams to win more is to balance the schedule and remove non-WS playoffs entirely. I think baseball really needs a Premier League style regular season trophy for best team, with the full acknowledgement that the postseason trophy is something different. So congrats to Philadelphia's 2011 championship - I say we name the trophy after the 2001 Mariners somehow.

sam - Friday, November 18 2011 @ 12:28 PM EST (#246880) #
Does this seem too outlandish?

In light of the recent cba and rumors that there'll either be some sort of cap/tax on draft bonuses, I'm curious how teams might try to get around the rules. Could a player, say a josh bell type player from last years draft, tell teams that nobody should draft him and then after the draft effectively act as a free agent and sign with the highest bidder. Thus teams would subvert the rules and the player will likely get a higher bonus.

This does require an agreement among all teams not to draft the player but ya? Is it simply too ridiculous?
92-93 - Friday, November 18 2011 @ 02:25 PM EST (#246903) #
AWeb, I couldn't agree more. Bring back the important of the regular season. Balance the schedule and make the regular season crown the ultimate goal that teams strive for. That doesn't preclude you from then having a post-season, and you can even split it up into tiers like the Champions League and the UEFA Cup. Too bad there's zero chance of that ever happening.
Richard S.S. - Friday, November 18 2011 @ 03:29 PM EST (#246913) #
Every team should have 2 very good Starters and 3 very good Relievers.  Now you are in the Wild card playoff game.  Assume you advance after your #1 Starter and 1 very good Reliever pitches the 1-game playoff (if you need more than that you aren't winning).    The Series should go: Game 1, Game 2, Off Day, Game 3, Game 4, Off Day, then Game 5.   If your #2 Starter is a 1A (he'd better be), he'll be good enough to start Game 1, especially with two very good Relievers to pitch  in the game.   As long as you win 1 of the first 3 games, your #1 Starter pitches Game 4, with your #2 Starter available for Game 5.
Ron - Friday, November 18 2011 @ 04:01 PM EST (#246918) #
But how? I'm honestly curious, because I can't recall meeting ever someone who is a fan of both of the Yankees and Red Sox. Didn't supporting whichever of those teams you liked first instil a dislike of the other franchise in you? Didn't supporting the Jays instil a dislike of both franchises in you?

It's a strange thing that I can't really explain. I think not being born or growing up in Boston or New York helped me in not hating the other team.
Richard S.S. - Friday, November 18 2011 @ 04:24 PM EST (#246928) #
To allow for 15 teams in each League the following makes sense.   Verses N.L. East or Central or West (5 teams), we'll play 6 games allowing for a home and away 3-game series.   Verses A.L. Central or A.L. West (10 teams), we'll play 8 games allowing for a home and awa-game series.   Verses A.L. East, we'll 13 games allowing for three 3-game series and one 4-game serires.   All nice and neat.
Richard S.S. - Friday, November 18 2011 @ 05:05 PM EST (#246937) #
I have been patiently watching the information coming out of the CBA talks.   Apparently it's the Players Union that wants the extra Wild card to start in 2012 and all that's left is "logistics".   As best as I can tell there's no cap or limit of Draft signings or International signings, just a tax on signings beyond slot.
Mike Green - Friday, November 18 2011 @ 05:22 PM EST (#246939) #
What I would like to see is an additional franchise added in each league. Then, you have two eight-team divisions in each league.  Winners of each division play a seven game series.  No wild card(s). It would obviously make it challenging for the home nine, but mostly it's about the will to win on the part of the respective owners (obviously Tampa is in a different boat entirely).  Toronto loses the spending wars to New York and Boston partly because of market issues, but mostly because of ownership's attitude. 
TamRa - Friday, November 18 2011 @ 07:18 PM EST (#246951) #
richard, that's neat except you can't divide 13 games evenly between home and away. I wouldn't mind dropping the extra 4 games but otherwise, you'll have to live with a sort of alternating year rotation to balance out the home/road splits vs division opponents.
Richard S.S. - Friday, November 18 2011 @ 10:51 PM EST (#246958) #

TamRa @ http://thesouthpawbaseball.blogspot.com/

I HATE TWO-GAME SERIES.

Four-game series are design to follow or precede three-game series which is so convenient as it fills a seven-day week.   Anything that shortens the season is a plus.   I'm willng to go to alternate years for home and away.   An alternative is a 161 game season or a 163 game season.

I enjoy your site.

dawgatc - Saturday, November 19 2011 @ 09:57 AM EST (#246963) #
Agree with Mike Green.Rogers has lots of money and a huge tv audience on their side.They can compete on any level they choose.Any failure on their part is a failure of imagination and committment.The fans will return when the will to win exerts itself on every phase of the operation-the draft,free agents,etc..So far AA has shown himself to be an excellent farm director.The big team is a different matter;he will require guts and imagination to get the next part done.The fans will be watching to see a step forward.
bpoz - Saturday, November 19 2011 @ 11:09 AM EST (#246967) #
I agree that the Jays must eventually take a step forward, maybe even 2 steps, if 1 big step is too hard in the AL East.

Step 1...win 90 games. Step 2 win 93+ games.

Winning less than 90 games is not a step IMO.
Richard S.S. - Saturday, November 19 2011 @ 11:34 PM EST (#246991) #

A.A. has lately been talking (officially) to various Sports Writers / T.V. / Radio shows.   He has been talking about a Big July, and if Toronto's within 4.5 games of a playoff berth - making big moves.   Is that backpeddling, from his talk of having a big Offseason about 09/29/11 to 10/06/11, when he (Thu 09/29/11 TSN) and Paul Beeston (10/06/11 Richard Griffin Interview) were both on the record about it.

From the talk around Yu Darvish, it appears he might not post this year, prefering to wait two years, when he is a Free Agent.  

A.A. has said he likes the Term but not the $$$ of some Closers, while he likes the $$$ but not the Term of other Closers.   I say bite the bullet and sign one, especially  with this http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/teams-signing-type-a-relievers-wont-forfeit-picks.html  news happening.  Negotiations are probably now increasing on Closers, and I think A.A. gets left behind (IMO, too afraid of making "the big mistake").

As we need a 2B (1) more than we need bullpen help, why is A.A. dragging this out.   We need Bullpen help (1-2), as well as a Closer (1), more than we need an Upgrade at Starter.   No moves here, which is should be a surprise.   We need an Upgrade at Starter (1), more than we need a strong Bench, but can A.A. meet the price?   We need a strong Bench (2-3), more than we need a Big Bat, unfortunately the choices are getting thinner.   We need a BIG BAT (1) to compliment Jose Bautista, more than we need to resolve Left Field, or is this somthing else we must wait for. 

I see (9) possible acqusitions A.A. should make, with (3) mandatory (2B & IF & 2nd C.).   I think the number should be a mandatory (5).   I include 1 Reliever & 1 Closer.   That should get us to 90 wins.   (The best Batter`s Box could agree on was 6 wins over last year; plus a better OF and an improved IF should be worth 3-5 wins.   That equals 90-92 wins, which means we are close.

bpoz - Sunday, November 20 2011 @ 11:01 AM EST (#246998) #
You make some good points Richard SS.
There are some interviews where AA & P Beeston have said things. So by seeing & listening to something that is spoken clearly it cannot be misunderstood. A written report by any writer, with or without Quotation Marks still for me is not to be trusted as correct. The writer may have misunderstood or is deliberately putting a spin to it so as to gain readership.
Lastly on this topic a talk show host made a great point with examples of players, speaking in their own language, communicating badly, so that the writer was forced to edit just so it was usable and there was no intent to mislead.

Sorry to be so long winded.

Since I don't have the skills to easily find these interviews and then keep them in the computer for easy access as proof I am forced to say IMO. So this becomes my interpretation based on memory which can have failings.

With Jeff Blair AA explained that July provided some great opportunities for trades. Each team has a record & can evaluate specific areas of weakness and decide how much they will pay. I find no fault with the theory behind this explanation.

However it does disturb me that AA could be revealing his thoughts. I believe that AA has the most influence regarding the team so the writers & Beeston are really giving their opinion of the team's possible moves & strategy. The writers have to write and are IMO expressing opinions. Beeston was clear last year that it was totally AA's call on hiring the new manager, I believe.
Listening to P Beeston to me is exciting because I feel his position with the team is big and I jump to the conclusion that what he says could be fact. But how is he to really know. Sure he knows the guidelines and the overall philosophy and he has an opinion. He believes no big FA will sign with us until we have a winning team. That leaves trades to acquire elite players. How can anyone in the Jay's FO know that we were going to successfully get Y Escobar & C Rasmus. I think Beeston did say we would make a big trade in the off season. I consider that just his opinion.

I like the fact that AA cannot usually be pinned down. Just waiting for the bombshell works for me. I am fine with him repeating himself and hopefully not being specific.

bpoz - Sunday, November 20 2011 @ 11:20 AM EST (#247002) #
That post was so long.

If we improved our scoring differential by 150+ runs then we should win about 92 games? In theory. Does anyone know how to do the math for this type of calculation.

If we speculate that C Rasmus can improve CF and H Alvarez can provide more that JoJo Reyes, then that is a good start. We know that CF production was down in 2011 from 2010. With luck Reyes replacement can be a big contributer. Lawrie provided the best 3B production in 2011 by a wide margin. Production at 2B could improve or get worse.
So this is my guesswork and it is mainly guessing... +40-60 runs.
Chuck - Sunday, November 20 2011 @ 11:31 AM EST (#247003) #

Does anyone know how to do the math for this type of calculation.

Expected winning percentage = (RF^2) / ((RF^2)+(RA^2))

RF=runs for
RA=runs against
^2="to the power of 2" (Bill James found that the exponent 1.83 is slightly more accurate)

Dewey - Sunday, November 20 2011 @ 12:54 PM EST (#247004) #
 bpoz - Sunday, November 20 2011 @ 11:01 AM EST (#246998) #

So by seeing & listening to something that is spoken clearly it cannot be misunderstood. 

You are right to suspect written reports, bpoz, but spoken ones are not necessarily any more true.
I am saddened to tell you:  there are people out there who tell lies.  Yes, they do.  They sometimes tell them very clearly, so that you would find it hard not to understand what is being said.  But they’re still lying.  (And sometimes people lie by *not* telling us things:  that’s a favourite of GMs and ex-wives especially.)  Talk radio is an absolute hotbed for this stuff.  Toronto City Hall these days is also a fine place to witness almost-clear-spoken duplicity;  as are our Houses of Parliament, of course.   Or how about the Republican debates?  Wow!

Listening to P Beeston to me is exciting because I feel his position with the team is big and I jump to the conclusion that what he says could be fact.

Yes, it *could*  be, but taking Mr. Beeston at face value is fraught with peril.  He’s a consummate schmoozer.

“But how is he to really know.  . . . ? How can anyone in the Jay's FO know . . . ? “

Excellent questions.  They can’t know, and they don’t know.  They try to act with the best information they can gather; and then they hope (oh, how they hope) that they did the best thing.  Every decision, however, is hedged round by myriad contingencies, most of which we don’t even know about (and some they don’t even know about).  And the ground upon which their decisions are made is constantly shifting, every single day.  (Another reason why Da Box’s indulgence in ‘predicting’ is just so much pointless, but ‘fun’, fantasy-play.)

Cheers. 


Chuck - Sunday, November 20 2011 @ 03:49 PM EST (#247005) #
I am saddened to tell you:  there are people out there who tell lies.  Yes, they do. 

Interesting timing for this "spoiler". I have just completed watching a documentary on Pat Tillman's death in Afghanistan. How does the old line go? I could tell Donald Rumsfeld was lying. Yeah, how? His lips were moving,
Magpie - Sunday, November 20 2011 @ 04:36 PM EST (#247006) #
Bill James found that the exponent 1.83 is slightly more accurate

I know, but I can report (and I did, just last month!) that the original Pythagorean formula (using the numbers squared rather than an exponent, be it 1.83 or 1.81) most definitely produces results that match much more closely the actual W/L records of baseball teams. I don't know if that makes it more accurate, but I don't know what "accurate" even means in such a context - does anyone? How would we know?
Mike Green - Sunday, November 20 2011 @ 05:24 PM EST (#247007) #
What was that saying about lies, damn lies and statistics? It is hard to believe that the word "Moneyball" had not yet been coined. 

My old evidence law professor had a great comedic touch.  One routine went something like this:

Professor: (Voice getting progressively louder and louder)  I have something very important to tell you.
 (Class falls silent, expecting a clue about what might be on the final exam)
Professor: (hushed tone) People lie.
Professor (shocked) Can you believe it?
Professor (in a progressively louder voice again): And do you know what else?
(Class knows there won't be a final exam clue  but falls silent anyways)
Professor (off-handedly): Some people lie over and over again.
...

Fortunately, real journalism seems to be making a bit of a comeback.So, whether it is the President of the Blue Jays or the Prime Minister of Canada who says something, it is a little more likely that someone will be checking to see whether the claim has any merit, and reporting on their findings.

John Northey - Sunday, November 20 2011 @ 05:43 PM EST (#247008) #
Basically the rule of thumb is 10 runs = 1 win. Not perfect, but close enough (lower scoring environment will require fewer runs, high scoring more).

So if Prince Fielder came here he'd be worth, roughly, 36-61 runs (based on the past 3 years). Adam Lind, the past 3 years, has been worth between -9 (yes, 9 below 0) and 33 runs via Baseball Reference (twice sub-0) vs the average hitter. That suggests the spread between them (assuming both are equal on defense and baserunning) is somewhere between 3 (worst for Fielder/best for Lind) and 70 runs a year. Averages for the 3 years are Fielder 51 Lind 6 which suggests a spread of 45 runs or 4 1/2 wins. Pujols has averaged 58 runs of offense thus add 7 to the spread for 52 or just over 5 wins a year.

Obviously adding just one of those two will help but not make up the 9 or so wins the Jays require.

So, where else? Last years sOPS+ (OPS+ vs ML at position) bottom feeders for the Jays...
CF: 61
2B: 79
LF: 86
1B: 89

All other positions were over 100 (ie: better than average) outside of pitcher hitting (19) and pinch hitting (45).

So the lowest hanging fruit is CF, which has (hopefully) been addressed with Rasmus (lifetime OPS+ of 103, peak in the 130's). Then comes 2B (still a major concern), LF (could fix itself if Snider or Thames steps up), and 1B (Lind strong all year could work, but seems a longshot).
StephenT - Sunday, November 20 2011 @ 06:00 PM EST (#247009) #
With a minimal change to the divisions, I would make things more time-zone centric as follows (which is good for fans watching road games on TV, and reduces player travel):

Just move Texas to the AL Central, and Arizona to the AL West.

Then you have two 4-team West divisions (of teams in the 2 western timezones), two 6-team Centrals, two 5-team Easts.

The 2 West divisions would play 18 games against each team in their own division, and 12 games against each team in the other west division, and 6 games against each other team in their own league.  This gives them a lot more games in their own time zone.  It also covers all the interleague needed for having two 15-team leagues.

The 2 East divisions would play 15 games against each team in their own division, 12 games against each team in their league's Central division, 6 teams against each team in their league's West division, and 2 interleague series of 3 games each (rivalry series).  So Toronto would have twice as many games vs. Detroit and Cleveland as now.

To partially compensate the other divisions for the West having small divisions, for the wildcards, you wouldn't allow both wildcards in a league to be from the West.
Chuck - Sunday, November 20 2011 @ 06:32 PM EST (#247011) #

I don't know if that makes it more accurate, but I don't know what "accurate" even means in such a context - does anyone? How would we know?

I thought James simply applied his model to historic data, at that time, and found that 1.83 (or whatever it was) reduced the mean square error. Perhaps due to the change in offensive context since he derived his formula, a higher exponent is now more "accurate" (again, when applied to historic data to measure MSE), thus your findings that 2 works "better" than 1.83.

bpoz - Sunday, November 20 2011 @ 06:54 PM EST (#247012) #
This is fun about lying and not lying by not revealing relevant information. It helps everyone IMO and is a good refresher to me about this part of life. Thanks.

If I may go a step forward, specifically, involving baseball.

1) We fully understand not revealing the extent of a players aches & pains. He did not run hard because he really has a minor leg injury but revealing the extent gives knowledge to the opposing manager.
2)The manager says that the pitcher threw OK or had trouble with some aspect of his pitching. He cannot be too critical, especially in public because that causes problems. We expect him to make his next start... it is not necessary to reveal that it may be in the minors. That would be a team decision and details of this move does not have to be revealed to the fans, but something has to be said.
3) Mutual respect and some kind of proper treatment guidelines are probably very important to the clubhouse atmosphere. Playing time & changing or not changing roles can cause big trouble.

Honestly I am often lost in the depth of this type of thing.

Then I cannot even believe trusted Bauxites. One example would be, how much real competition happens in ST and how much is pre determined.

The concept of saying something... that is then considered as Stepping Over The Line is ...What. First off that line may be different for different people. Opinions if expressed about the performance of J Rauch this year by management or fans could have gone over the line but IMO did not.

Lastly I have to express admiration in a lot of cases when a gutsy & sincere but critical comment by a Bauxite has led to...putting it mildly getting roasted. Some of that cannot be avioided and often the critical comment turns out to be quite correct.

I feel like a scotch.

Richard S.S. - Sunday, November 20 2011 @ 08:57 PM EST (#247014) #

bpoz

I have links to those interviews  http://www.battersbox.ca/users.php?mode=profile&uid=9081 and  http://www.battersbox.ca/users.php?mode=profile&uid=9081 .   I also took the trouble to write the direct quotes down personally.   Hope this helps.

TamRa - Monday, November 21 2011 @ 06:23 AM EST (#247019) #
if we assume that Yu is off the market (by not being posted) here's a set of signings I like (acknowledging that Alex has said he'd rather trade than go the FA route:

Bedard
Nathan
Johnson
Hairston, Jr

and a catcher from:
Snyder
Varitek
Shoppach
Castro
or Rodriguez

I don't see any problem with that unless he thinks he can do notably better than one of these in a trade (say for instance he'd rather gamble on Beckham than sign Johnson)
sam - Monday, November 21 2011 @ 12:40 PM EST (#247024) #
A Varitek signing might be a good idea. I'd imagine he has a good relationship with Farrell and could be a good guy to have around Arencibia for the year.
Mike Green - Monday, November 21 2011 @ 01:44 PM EST (#247026) #
Please.  Just say no to Varitek.  Job #1 from a back-up catcher is playing acceptable defence.  Varitek doesn't do that any more.  He would be a big step down from Molina.
John Northey - Monday, November 21 2011 @ 01:54 PM EST (#247027) #
Who are the A list starters (aka 'aces') who are available? None on the free agent market outside of Wilson who I see as marginal still (not enough time as one).

Checking the 6 last place teams...

Baltimore: no starters with a 100+ ERA+ in 2011

Minnesota: Scott Baker the only one over 100 (128), signed for 2012/option 2013, last 4 years ERA+ were 122/100/91/128 lifetime 102 over 958 IP with 2.1 BB/9, 7.2 K/9, 1.2 HR/9. Francisco Liriano is in his last year of arbitration pre-free agency but since missing a year due to injury his ERA+'s have been 108-76-112-79 and last year had 5.0 BB/9 (!). He'll get around $5 mil for 2012 I suspect unless non-tendered. How the mighty have fallen.

Seattle: King Felix is as good as ever, signed for 3 years at about $19 mil a year. Michael Pineda looks really good but isn't available (first year in majors). Erik Bedard was their #3 and is now a free agent (after spending time in Boston).

Marlins: Think they can contend (new park, talking of blowing mega bucks) so not a target.
Mets: 2nd last in NL East, RA Dickey was their ace but 5.8 K/9 suggests he wouldn't be one here.

Houston: Wandy Rodríguez was looked at earlier but his 102 ERA+ lifetime isn't ace material. Good solid #3 guy. Bud Norris has talent, but again not showing much yet.

San Diego: Mat Latos looks good but is still pre-arbitration so isn't moving. Same with anyone else who is any good there.

Not a lot of targets from the bottom feeders. King Felix is #1, then you drop all the way to Wandy Rodriguez. Liriano is an interesting case as he was an ace who never fully recovered from injuries - someone AA tends to go for (good pedigree but might be undervalued at this point) but carries a risk of falling apart completely while the plus is he would only cost for 1 year.
greenfrog - Monday, November 21 2011 @ 04:13 PM EST (#247039) #
Re the upcoming CBA agreement. I'm a bit unclear about a few things:

- Will there still be Type A and/or B free agents after this off-season?

- Is there going to be some sort of cap on draft and/or IFA spending?

- What is this "draft compensation for top free agents if their original team makes them a qualifying offer north of $12M" scheme? Will any prospective FA offered $12M+ be automatically deemed a "top free agent" resulting in compensation?
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