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The Advance Scout's truncated season begins to wind down as the Jays head to St. Pete's for their penultimate series. Tampa Bay is 2 games behind the Red Sox for the American League Wild Card with six to play, actually quite a formidable deficit. Tampa started the month off 5.5 behind before narrowing the gap thanks to the Red Sox mini-collapse. Fun fact: the Red Sox are 4-14 in their last 18, and since August 27th have won one game in which they scored fewer than 9 runs. So maybe Tampa has a shot, although they get the Jays and the Yankees while Boston gets the Yankees and Orioles. Still, the Bosox lost three of four at home to the Orioles this past week, and Tampa Bay is, statistically speaking, likely to go 4 and -1 against the Jays if recent history is any indication.

Every night in my dreams, I Advance Scout you.



Friday: Brandon Morrow v. David Price

Has David Price ever actually lost against the Blue Jays? It doesn't really seem like it. Upon closer inspection, he is in fact 9 and 1 in 11 starts, with an ERA of 1.99. What a suck. He's faced the Jays four times this year, and in the best two starts he pitched 15.2 innings with 24 K's, 2 walks and 7 hits, allowing no runs. In the other two, including a game in which he actually took a loss, he went 14.2 and allowed 7 runs, mustering a pitiful 11/4 K/BB ratio. So this guy's awful, it's pretty clear... He's so bad he throws a 95 MPH fastball as a lefthander, and it's probably the best fastball in the AL. So, he throws it a lot. He's also got a pretty wicked change in the low-80s, a hard slider (89-90 MPH), and a nice big curveball. And he works quickly. I think I'm in love. Edwin Encarnacion is 3/15, Mike McCoy and Jose Molina 4 for 15 and 12, respectively, Adam Lind 6/30, JPA 0/10, and Jose Bautista 9/25 with 4 home runs (including 2 in a game earlier this season in which he was as locked in as any human being has ever been hitting a baseball and Price tried to sneak a fastball by him twice. It was epic; the Jays still lost when they pulled Brandon Morrow early in his first start and the pen blew it. Not that I'm bitter or anything.)

Saturday: Ricky Romero v. Jeff Niemann

Jeff Niemann is a little more yeoman-like than David Price, which is not to say he's bad, far from it, just not an All-Star. And a giant, standing at 6-9 (he does beat the 6'6 Price in this regard.) Over the last three years Niemann has been close to a league average pitcher, not spectacular but reasonably durable and effective. He does everything pretty well but doesn't stand out in one particular area, though he does maintain a nice K/BB ratio. Niemann pitches off his low-90s fastball and relies heavily on his curveball. He'll mix in 6 or 7 sliders and splitters a game to keep hitters honest. Adam Lind is 11/26 with 4 walks and 2 dingers, Mark Teahan 3/10, Edwin Encarnacion 1/9 and Jose Bautista 3/17 with 5 walks.

Sunday: Brett Cecil v. Wade Davis

The smallest of the opposing pitchers the Jays are going to face, Davis stands a paltry 6'5. I know right? His problem as a starter has been keeping the ball down and men off base. He's walked a tick more than 3 batters per 9 innings throughout his career, and hasn't been able to post huge strikeout numbers to compensate. This year in fact has been the worst of any season, majors or minors, as he's managed to K only 5/9 IP. He's also getting tagged for a line drive rate of over 20%, which is not a long term recipe for success. Despite his size Davis doesn't throw especially hard, topping out at 93 or so but usually sitting a bit below that. Like both other Rays starters this weekend he relies heavily on his fastball, throwing only a scattering of sliders and change ups; like Niemann his second pitch is that righty curve. JPA is 4 for 10 lifetime, Yunel Escobar 7/16, Adam Lind 6/17, Eric Thames 3/8,  Edwin Encarnacion 1/12 and Jose Bautista 2/17.

Other Rays: Desmond Jennings, trapped in the minors forever because of injuries and various other circumstances, has had a great rookie season, hitting a cool .287/.376/.498, going 18/24 stealing bases while mostly playing leftfield and leading off. Not a bad start to a career. It's been a down year with the stick for Evan Longoria; he's hitting only .244/.349/.485, and I'm assuming a dismal .241 average on balls in play is the culprit. Still, he's been great defensively and is still a star. Ben Zobrist is one of the most underrated players in baseball, putting up numbers similar to Longoria (a little more average, a little less slugging) while playing gold glove calibre defense at second and in right. Matt Joyce and Casey Kotchman (and the aforementioned Jennings) have been the other hitting stars in the lineup, though stars is the wrong word - Tampa fields a lineup of good but not great hitters throughout for the most part, but many of them happen to be superb fielders. Johnny Damon isn't a great, or even good, fielder or hitter at this point, but he's racked up 156 hits leaving him less than 300 shy of 3000. He's 38 this year, and it would take him two more years to get there, and he's a DH at this point and not a good enough hitter for that really, so maybe he doesn't. Still kindof neat, and it would open up a very interesting (but I think ultimately futile) Hall of Fame case.

The Jays: John Lott in the Post chimes in on Colby Rasmus, who's been a bit of an enigma. Rasmus does not come off especially well in the interview, and it's not hard to read between the lines a bit and see why he fell out of favour previously. Still, he has a ton of talent, Keith Law still thinks he can be a star for what it's worth, and his defense in CF has seemed pretty solid to me so far (he ran down a ball deep in the gap yesterday)... The Dome is being shut down for the year (picture)... Ghostrunner on First, another Jays blog, is calling it quits...

The Infirmary:
The Legend of Sam Fuld and the anti-legend Kyle Farnsworth are both day-to-day.

Credit: Fangraphs, Yahoo! Sports and Baseball Reference were all used in the making of this Advance Scout.


Advance Scout: Tampa Bay Rays, September 23-25 | 149 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
John Northey - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#244528) #
A bit torn here... I'd love to see Boston blow it just because it would be fun to see how they'd react (don't go below any overpasses near Boston). However, Tampa has been a thorn in the Jays side from day 1 and killing their playoff dreams would be sweet.

Guess best to hope the Jays pound Tampa, the Yanks pound Boston, then Tampa and the Orioles have great final weekends.
John Northey - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 02:15 PM EDT (#244529) #
Quite the interview with Rasmus there. He will be a challenge for the coaches that is for sure. Tons of talent but no idea how to make it work. Maybe leaving him alone will work, maybe not. Might be a guy you need to have Cito Gaston come down and talk with - he seemed to be good at getting guys heads back into the game - Devon White comes to mind as he was viewed much like Rasmus is now, a guy who had all the talent but never could do what people thought he could.
85bluejay - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#244530) #

I would be very happy to see the Red Sox miss the playoffs, so I'm rooting for a Rays sweep which would also likely result in an improvement of the Jays drafting position so a win-win result

I'm not a fan of TLR, but if the Cardinals make the postseason, I wonder if it may change the PTBNL/cash  that the Jays owe the Cardinals.

Juan Rivera has had a productive stay in LA - hopefully this improves our PTBNL/cash  from the Dodgers.

I hope Colby Rasmus can rebound next year because his play is cause for concern.

I am hoping that someone can report on the clubhouse situation/vibe regarding the present hitting coach Murphy & Chad Mottola.

Chuck - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 02:35 PM EDT (#244533) #

Joe Maddon deserves a ridiculous amount of credit for shepherding this particular team to a potential playoff berth. 

You look at the position players and you wonder how on earth that lot can perform a tick below league average in run scoring (4.34 to 4.46).

And yes, the starting pitching is deep and talented. And now with Moore, deeper and more talented yet. But the bullpen is a collection of bargain basement cast-offs, somehow transmogrified into a passable assemblage.

If and when the organization elects to drop any money into the major league roster, this team could become more than a mere Rube Goldberg machine.

John Northey - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 03:13 PM EDT (#244535) #
Sadly they'll never drop any more money onto this team as fan support makes the Jays fans look like Red Sox fans.

In TB's history their best rank for attendance was their first season at 7th out of 14. Last year was their 2nd best at 9th out of 14. They have not reached 1.9 million in a season for attendance outside of that first season. This year will be their worst for attendance since the last season they came in last place (2007) and there is a chance they'll be under 1.5 million this year.

Think about that. The Jays are top 10 in attendance this year for a team that was expected to be out of it and pretty much delivered :P Last year was the WORST the Jays have ever done for ranking at 12th out of 14 teams - the Rays are 13th in a year they could make the playoffs for the 3rd out of 4 years. Last years 18,463 per game for the Jays is barely below the Rays mark for this season (18,549) despite being out of the race for the 17th straight season.

If I owned that team I'd be begging MLB to help me find a way to break that lease and get the heck out of there. Put that team in Montreal and you'd have 2.5 million a year coming in if not more even at the Big Owe.
DJRob - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#244537) #
Every night in my dreams, I Advance Scout you.

Haha. Thought this was slightly creepy, but is mild compared to the line I think you are alluding to. This will require some atonement on your part, sir.
sam - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 03:31 PM EDT (#244538) #
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/09/22/davidi_anthopoulos/

I wonder if Richard S.S. choses to simply ignore articles like this or thinks they're simply lies.
Ron - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 03:40 PM EDT (#244540) #
I enjoy reading Jonah Keri on grantland and listening to his podcasts, but I wasted $30 on The Extra 2%. The book is almost 300 pages long but I learned nothing new about how the Rays run their organization.

By the way what ever happened to the annoying heckler (he was so loud it was distracting watching the games on TV)?

Chuck - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#244542) #

the annoying heckler

From WIkipedia:

In 2008, Szasz released a book entitled The Happy Heckler. In 2009, banks filed several lawsuits against him for defaulting on more than $9 million in loans that he personally signed for, and Wachovia Bank foreclosed on his 7,000-square-foot (650 m2) waterfront home on Snell Isle. Szasz did not renew his Rays season tickets for 2009 and has not been heard to heckle in Tropicana Field since then.

Anders - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#244544) #
Every night in my dreams, I Advance Scout you.

Haha. Thought this was slightly creepy, but is mild compared to the line I think you are alluding to. This will require some atonement on your part, sir.

What, it's a Celine reference. I guess it could be "Every night in my dreams, I see you, I Advance Scout you.

uglyone - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#244546) #
I really wanted to lose last night, to give the Angels a boost in the race for the wildcard. But no matter how much I dislike the Red Sox, I'm never going to cheer for the Jays to lose to the Rays.

Not sure anyone has really noticed it yet, but it looks like the AL Wildcard is going to be won with 90-91 wins this year.

And AA keeps hinting that it's not the time to spend money, even though the Bautista window is only getting smaller.
bpoz - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#244547) #
Madden & Feldman have done a great job in TB. I am guessing they want out of TB and there should be a line up for their services.

When could this happen, ie they are available. If the Baltimore owner kept his hands off... WOW!! The Cubs would also be a good destination. Other famous teams...Detroit, NY Mets.
Mike Green - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#244548) #
I returned from holiday with two thoughts. One, the reason that I am uncomfortable with Frank Francisco has nothing to do with the walks, it's the name. "Francisco Frank-oh blew away the Reds in the ninth" is too close to home. Second, do French parents teach their children to hold baguettes in the same way that we do for Louisville Sluggers? You see youngsters in the street with that same firm but not too tight grip.

Robert asked about comparable players to Brett Lawrie, and the names Rose and Biggio rightly figured prominently. Frank Robinson was not entirely comparable, but shared three qualities at least: tremendous power, crowding the plate and getting hit a lot, and very notable aggression on the basepaths. F. Robby didn't have Lawrie's speed, and Brett does not have as good plate control.

Finally, I was not here for Beeston's comments about long-term contracts (apparently in relation to the upcoming free agent negotiations), but what I gleaned from it was that the club feels that there will not be value in the big-name position players seeking 6 or 7 year contracts. There are obviously some limits on what the club should pay for any particular player, but hard and fast rules about contract length seem to me to be poorly conceived. If Albert Pujols will sign for 4 years at $23 million followed by 3 player options at $10 million, say, the club shouldn't rule it out because of the contract length.

More importantly, Rogers' sincerity about its willingness to spend the required funds to compete with the Red Sox is very much in doubt.
Ron - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 04:24 PM EDT (#244550) #

From WIkipedia:

In 2008, Szasz released a book entitled The Happy Heckler. In 2009, banks filed several lawsuits against him for defaulting on more than $9 million in loans that he personally signed for, and Wachovia Bank foreclosed on his 7,000-square-foot (650 m2) waterfront home on Snell Isle. Szasz did not renew his Rays season tickets for 2009 and has not been heard to heckle in Tropicana Field since then.

I'm glad this guy didn't renew his season tickets. I don't mind a few heckles once in awhile but he kept it up all game. He must have drove the people sitting around him crazy.

John Northey - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#244552) #
I find it funny seeing people advocating for 6-7+ year deals. Those are disaster potential deals - where you have a guy here who is getting paid through the nose (if you want top talent) who could drop through the floor due to age.

I've pushed for a 3-5 year deal for Fielder/Pujols. If they want 7+ offer options based on playing time so if they are productive they basically have that 5 year deal extended (ideally only apply if healthy in last 2 years of a 5 year deal, but can be worked on). Make it a high game total (150) so they don't get it if playing part time.

Realistically there is always a 'bigger idiot' out there so don't become the biggest one. That is how you get Wells type deals, or any number of other long term deals that look bad one or two years later (A-Rod's deals, Mauer, Crawford, Soriano, Zito, Werth, Howard as well as Wells to name 9 of the top 18 ever - some would add Manny's deal too). Some weren't disasters (A-Rod very productive in the first deal, Howard hits lots of HR) but all were questioned either immediately or within a year or two after being signed.

Even the Yankees don't have an unlimited budget. Ideally you avoid deals where your hands would be tied in a couple of years - ie: 3 years or less only with team options - but realistically the only way you get those is via guys you have control over for a few years (under 6 years experience) who have less leverage than a free agent.

Will Rogers spend? I suspect so, but only as the crowds and TV ratings grow. They know this team can have millions watching (Canadians love sports) and 3+ million in the stands if they are doing what the Rays have done the last 4 years. They will budget based on that, as long as the team is ready to win. That is why the draft and international free agents have been so important and will continue to be for the near future. A team that pushes 90 wins will get a boost from free agency. A team that pushes 500 won't.
bpoz - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#244553) #
The article by Davidi on AA was sort of informative.

I like to grab on tight to things said that I agree with strongly. I think everyone does.

A lot of people say things and do something different. If they truly tried or circumstances changed, then their actions IMO are not deceiving or Lying. AA said before the trade deadline that he wanted to get players that could help the ML team. He got Rasmus & K Johnston, so he delivered. But I prefer him to not say much, just keep trying to deliver and do his best in acquiring talent. We will know the results. IMO there will still be lots of talk & rumors to keep everyone happy.

But enough vagueness.

So AA does not want to waste money. In Free Agency he sees a danger in that. I strongly agree with that.

So he wants to trade. He thinks there is a massive risk in making trades. He is afraid that he will trade a great player. Please lets discuss this. Please & Thank You.

What if you won something...Playoff Spot OR WS.

Montreal Expos traded Randy Johnson. You have to give up something to get M Langston. Did RJ look like he was going to be great/good. Was this worth it.

Detroit Doyle Alexander for John Smolz. Same questions.

Texas R Darling & Walt Terell for Lee Mizzelli? Same questions. Mick D?

Jeff Kent, M Young & T Fernandez all had long very good careers. Only Tony had the great anticipation.

BUT WHAT IS A GREAT PLAYER??? Great is a relative term. No choice with Halliday IMO. Who could be on AA's list to not trade? And how does he know?

So far he has not given up a great prospect, as far as I know.

R Alomar for sure turned out great but we did not know that when he arrived. But he showed us he was good at least & really fast.

Please excuse the vagueness and jumping around with the thought process. I don't want to lose everything by trying to cut & paste. I can only dream of becoming a computer NERD. I would be honored.
Thomas - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#244554) #
I find it funny seeing people advocating for 6-7+ year deals. ....I've pushed for a 3-5 year deal for Fielder/Pujols.

I don't think anybody is advocating for a 7-year deals (although I might for Lawrie). People are advocating for signing elite free agent talent, which will necessitate a lengthy deal. Despite what you've pushed, a 3-year or 4-year offer would be a non-starter with Pujols or Fielder.

Dave Till - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#244555) #
Quite the interview with Rasmus there. He will be a challenge for the coaches that is for sure. Tons of talent but no idea how to make it work.

This is precisely why major-league managers get paid all that money - for their human resources skills. Job One for a manager is to motivate talented young men who have lived in Elite Athletic Prospect World all their lives. Everything else that a manager does - make out the lineup card, change pitchers, rest players periodically - can be handled successfully by anyone who has watched a few dozen games and paid attention. The hard part is getting these elite athletes to make the most of their talents and work together as a team.

Cito Gaston excelled at motivating players, which is why he is a greatly underrated manager.

As for Rasmus: I'm willing to give him a mulligan until next year. He was traded in mid-season to a new league, he's been battling injury, and he is probably still recovering from his time in St. Louis. I would want to know, though, whether Rasmus actually wants to play here. Some people who are traded here don't like it here, and Rasmus is from the South; when confronted with the awfulness that is April in Toronto ("Today's forecast: mixed precipitation"), he might wish he were somewhere, anywhere, that is warm. (And who would blame him?)
John Northey - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 07:09 PM EDT (#244556) #
No free agents go for short? Checking Cot's Contracts for a few HOF'ers or near HOF'ers...

Roger Clemens: 3 years covering 97-99 with hidden clause locking in a trade. Record per year dollars for a pitcher at the time. In his HOF career he NEVER signed a deal for longer than 4 years - 1 4 year deal, 2 3 years, 2 2 year, and a batch of 1 year deals including at the end when he was a Cy contender.

Guys with 3 or less throughout...
Curt Schilling, Andy Pettitte,

Others who never had a deal longer than 4 years...
Randy Johnson, Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, Ozzie Smith, Jeff Kent

Others who never had a deal longer than 5 years...
Greg Maddux, Cal Ripken, George Brett, Kirby Puckett, Mark McGwire, Tony Gwynn

That is a lot of HOF'ers who played during the free agency era who didn't get more than 5 years in a deal. Back in the 70's they were handing out 10 year deals fairly often too.
Thomas - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 07:26 PM EDT (#244557) #
No free agents go for short?

That's not quite what I said. I said that elite free agents will not sign 3-year-deals, as you have proposed offering Pujols and Fielder. I don't believe Andy Pettitte's contract length in 2000 is at all relevant to how many years we can expect Pujols or Fielder to sign for.

Nick Holmes - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#244558) #
Was the Beeston line an actual quote or a paraphrase?
Richard S.S. - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 08:35 PM EDT (#244559) #
sam - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 03:31 PM EDT (#244538) #        I am crushed and disappointed you think so little of me.  A.A. is not Billy Bean, he won't lay his strategy out to his wife, let alone any press people.  (Beeston might know, but I'm not that sure.)  It's entirely possible, knowing exactly what A.A. must do, he will still surprise and astonish us.  It wouldn't do to become predictable.        1) We need a Front-Of-The-Rotation Starter.   If we wait for the minors to produce one, it could be 2+  years away.   It is possible Morrow and Drabek can be FOTR Starters, but not next year.   Cecil is replaceable, when neccessary.  I don't see Cecil getting more than a year-to-year contract from us.           2) We need a lot of Bullpen help, especially Late-Innings types.  The remainder of the Bullpen will be filled in-house.        3) Everyone knows my opinion on needing a Big Scary Bat, much better than E.E.  He's not good enough, nor is Adam Lind, no matter how much they promote him.        4) LF, 2B, Bench decision are just Housekeeping all teams do.  A few teams do this very well, we don't.   Do all this, and we contend for a post-season berth in 2012.
bball12 - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 08:42 PM EDT (#244560) #
Lots of folks on lots of websites seem to be getting all twisted up about the Rasmus interview.
Personally - I think it was just another interview - nothing earth shattering.
The bottom line is Production.

I am more interested in that than I am in headlines and interviews.
You don't win games with "tools" - you win with production.

Less talk and more production will cure alot of ills.

TamRa - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 09:00 PM EDT (#244561) #
actually,. that which was attributed to Beeston wasn't a quote at all - Just Jeff Blair stating it as if it were a fact.
Richard S.S. - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#244564) #

 ...I said that elite free agents will not sign 3-year-deals, as you have proposed offering Pujols and Fielder...

I beg to differ.   Albert Pujols, at age 31 (16 Jan 1980), will be seeking a "retirement contract" as his next contract.   Prince Fielder, at age 27 (9 May 1984), can sign a 3-year or 4-year contract for enough money, and still be younger than Pujols when going for his own "retirement contract" as his next contract.

hypobole - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 10:26 PM EDT (#244568) #
It would be a tremendous signing if AA can convince Fielder to agree to a 3 or 4 year deal.  Don't know if he can convince Scott Boras though.
Anders - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 10:27 PM EDT (#244569) #
I've pushed for a 3-5 year deal for Fielder/Pujols. If they want 7+ offer options based on playing time so if they are productive they basically have that 5 year deal extended (ideally only apply if healthy in last 2 years of a 5 year deal, but can be worked on). Make it a high game total (150) so they don't get it if playing part time.

Look, there's no way that Fielder or Pujols are signing for less than 6 years. 7 or 8 is my guess. It just doesn't happen, the players have all the leverage and can get what they want. And if Prince Fielder really wants to get back on the free agent market in 4 years for another big contract, he's not signing a 4 year contract, he's signing an 8 year contract with an opt out after 4 years. Let's face it, the deals are almost if not always bad deals for the teams. You're not signing to worry about 6 years from now, you're signing to win a championship now (and if this happens then the contract becomes more worthwhile because you generate additional revenue.) For the most part, if the Jays are going to commit on something like this I would prefer it to be for a top flight talent. The only guys who get 4 year deals these days are the middling Victor Martinez/Adam Dunn/Paul Konerko types that are clearly on the downswing.

scottt - Friday, September 23 2011 @ 10:57 PM EDT (#244570) #
Maybe a longer deal with an opt out clause, although that has its own risks.
Thomas - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 05:53 AM EDT (#244573) #
Prince Fielder, at age 27 (9 May 1984), can sign a 3-year or 4-year contract for enough money, and still be younger than Pujols when going for his own "retirement contract" as his next contract.

He can, but he won't. A 3-year or 4-year contract for Fielder is a pipe dream. He might sign a contract with a player opt-out after 3 or 4 years, but there's no way he's not signing a contract that will theoretically keep him employed for 6-8 years.

jennandchad - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 07:47 AM EDT (#244574) #
I am going to miss watching the Jays as their season wraps up. I have watched nearly every game including all of the frustrating blown leads! One thing is clear, the Jays will struggle to compete in 2012 unless a few key components are acquired. While some additional player development and a few guys breaking out next year for career seasons could possibly get us over the hump, its very unlikely and we can not depend on it. In my opinion, Alex must go out and get either another ACE (through a trade giving up prospects) or 2 proven solid pitchers (#2/#3), another strong reliever (to couple with Frankie/Casey) and a very capable 2nd basemen. The 4th and 5th pitchers will be a fight among Morrow/Drabek/Cecil/Alverez (some of whom will probably be traded). If they do not do this, it is just not going to happen.

Good season, but I want more!!!
John Northey - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 08:27 AM EDT (#244575) #
Thomas, you said elite free agents won't sign 3 year deals. Yet in the list I provided I showed that many have in the past 20 years (during the free agency era when deals of 10 years were handed out). Yes, what Andy Pettitte signed late in his career doesn't matter but what Clemens signed here sure does given he was still elite (as shown by the per year value). Plus if you look through that list I show a stack of HOF'ers who NEVER signed a 6+ year deal which many here feel it will take to sign Pujols or Fielder.

I still think Pujols is possible with a record per-year deal for just 3 years as, from what I've read, he wants to set a record of some kind. Only A-Rod and Clemens have signed per-year deals over $25 million (Howard dead on $25). Only A-Rod actually was paid over $25 per (Clemens was pro-rated for a 2/3 year deal). No one has had a deal over $28 mil per. If someone offers him $30 per for 3 he'll have to think long and hard about it. Fielder though I see as chasing a longer length due to his likely career arc and current age (upping the likelihood someone does something dumb).

Will the Jays do something like that, namely a record per year deal to get a star 1B? Doubtful. If a Robbie Alomar type (2B same age as Fielder but 6 straight AS games and 5 GG's) was out there then maybe. Btw, Alomar signed a 3 year deal at that point, then signed a 5 year deal after that - again, no lifetime deals.
chips - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 09:17 AM EDT (#244576) #

"I still think Pujols is possible with a record per-year deal for just 3 years as, from what I've read, he wants to set a record of some kind."

 

You may still think this, but Albert and his Agent won't think this. If a 3 year ?? million contract is on the table then you just allowed more teams into the bidding war. Otherwise, his 10 year contract that he is seeking is basically for 3 years of similar stats then paying the rest of the big money for the downside of his career. Albert wants big money for his decreasing production years. That's why there will be a limited amount of teams bidding. I say, no thanks.

bball12 - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 10:03 AM EDT (#244577) #
I really like the Jays stance on free agency signings.

Signing Fielder for 8 years? - or even 5 years - No way.
I think that would be a pretty reckless thing to do.

Actually - signing anyone for more than 4 years would be reckless.

ramone - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#244578) #
This is from Buster Olney's column this morning:

"Moves, deals and decisions
1. In some corners within the industry, the Toronto Blue Jays are viewed as the early front-runner in the pursuit of Yu Darvish, the powerful right-hander who is expected to move from Japan to Major League Baseball next year."

It's subscriber only so I won't post the link.
BlueJayWay - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 10:33 AM EDT (#244582) #
He also tweeted that a few hours ago http://twitter.com/#!/Buster_ESPN/status/117533827756331008

Within the industry, the Toronto Blue Jays are viewed as an early frontrunner in the pursuit of Yu Darvish,the high-end P talent from Japan.

greenfrog - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 10:37 AM EDT (#244583) #
Sounds like nothing more than an unsubstantiated rumour, probably based on the fact that (a) the Jays need starting pitching, (b) AA went to Japan to see Darvish pitch, and (c) the Jays have cleared some payroll, and should have some room to add salary. If Darvish is a legitimately good MLB "prospect", there will likely be heavy bidding on him by multiple teams. In a closed-bidding process, it would seem impossible to say who the "frontrunner" is.
Magpie - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 10:52 AM EDT (#244585) #
I don't think Clemens signed a two year contract with Toronto. I'm pretty sure it was a four or five year deal. He exercised a "trade-me" clause after two years, but he was still under contract.
China fan - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 11:13 AM EDT (#244586) #

On the Darvish question: it's worth remembering that the Jays have signed a growing number of top young prospects from Cuba, Venezuela, Mexico and the Dominican Republic. In each case, these prospects were unrestricted free agents and could sign with anyone, yet the Jays competed against the rest of major-league baseball and signed a number of these top prospects, often to multimillion-dollar deals. Darvish would be more expensive, but it would still be entirely logical -- based on recent experience and practise -- for us to expect the Jays to make a serious bid for him. If the Jays can find the money to acquire top prospects from Cuba, Venezuela, Mexico and the Dominican Republic, why not Japan? It's not an entirely outlandish idea, and it would actually fit with AA's pattern of looking for good young players on the international market who do not require a draft pick to acquire.

Chuck - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#244587) #

Both the Yankees and the Red Sox need starting pitching. The Colon/Garcia dos amigos act was a nice surprise, but not something the Yankees will want to count on. And the Boston situation is messy, messy, messy as this current month is very clearly illustrating. But both teams have been disappointed with prior investments in Japanese pitching.

Will Henry V Steinbrenner be heard uttering "once more, unto the breach dear friends?" He's already poised to write a big fat cheque to his big fat opting out ace. While he has the cheque book open, maybe he'll write another?

Will Epstein roll the Dice once again, hoping not to come up snakes eyes? Daisuke was much more not okay than okay. Epstein's last two off-seasons have landed him white elephants named Lackey and Crawford. Is there a chance he becomes gun shy?

Are there dark horses in pursuit of the whirling Darvish? I always think Seattle when a prominent Japanese player is available and that's certainly an organization that can use some bolstering. Or maybe the Rangers? They were willing to spend a ton of loot on Cliff Lee last season and may be about to lose CJ Wilson (likely to an AL East foe, methinks).

Mike Green - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 12:01 PM EDT (#244588) #

The early Canadian sabermetric pioneer George Lindsey has died.  His family history described in the linked obit is fascinating, with links to William Lyon Mackenzie, Norman Bethune and Sir Casimir Gzowski. 

greenfrog - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#244591) #
China fan, I agree - there are some good reasons why AA might pursue Darvish (I think age is another huge factor driving AA's interest, as Darvish just turned 25 and therefore would fit in the Jays' rotation perfectly). But I think the biggest countervailing factor is the price tag. Yes, Anthopoulos has added all kinds of interesting IFAs, with Hechavarria signing for an impressive $10M. However, none of them comes close to Darvish in terms of cost (presumably around $100M+ including posting fee). And AA has said that the organization would rather roll the dice on a slew of prospects costing a million or two each than break the bank on one player.

So who knows? Maybe the Jays will aggressively bid for Darvish. But I doubt that there is enough evidence to call the Jays the "early frontrunner."
Thomas - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 01:59 PM EDT (#244593) #
Thomas, you said elite free agents won't sign 3 year deals. Yet in the list I provided I showed that many have in the past 20 years (during the free agency era when deals of 10 years were handed out). Yes, what Andy Pettitte signed late in his career doesn't matter but what Clemens signed here sure does given he was still elite (as shown by the per year value). Plus if you look through that list I show a stack of HOF'ers who NEVER signed a 6+ year deal which many here feel it will take to sign Pujols or Fielder.

It's a different economic environment now than it was 15 years ago. It simply is. A bunch of the names you threw out, such as Ozzie Smith, have contracts that aren't relevant (and he's not an elite player in the same way Pujols and Fielder are, HOFer or not) to the discussion.

Let's look at the best position players from the past three free agent classes and see how long their contracts were:
2010 offseason: Jayson Werth (7 yrs), Carl Crawford (7 yrs), Adrian Beltre (6 yrs)
2009 offseason: Matt Holliday (7), Jason Bay (4), Chone Figgins (4)
2008 offseason: Mark Teixeira (8), Manny Ramirez (2), Raul Ibanez (3)
2007 offseason: Alex Rodriguez (10), Torii Hunter (5), Aaron Rowand (5)
2006 offseason: Alfonso Soriano (8), Carlos Lee (6), Aramis Ramirez (5)

In there wee have 7 players signing contracts of at least 6 years and 8 who did not. Those who did not are clearly either or both older players when signing and/or not elite players without a long track record of success (and this doesn't mean that all 7 players who signed for 6+ players are elite talent). None of them are comparable at all to Fielder or Pujols.

I don't think it's at all relevant how long people were signing for in the age when Ed Whitson was getting a 10-year contract. If you think that is more informative than the fact that the best position player every offseason in the last five has received at least a 7-year-contract, than we're talking past each other.

Thomas - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 02:05 PM EDT (#244594) #
In case it wasn't clear, I'm talking about position players and predicting Pujols and Fielder will receive at least 6-year deals (from the team's perspective; I could see a CC-type player opt-out deal). Pitcher contracts are much harder to predict, so I'm not talking about Darvish or Wilson (I doubt either Wilson or Darvish will get 6+ years, particularly the latter).
Mylegacy - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 02:24 PM EDT (#244595) #
On Yu - the Iranian/Japanese phenom...

I don't expect us to get him... both NY and Boston DESPERATELY need him and they have the money (although they may be a bit gun shy).

However - playing what if...

AA's FOUR contributions to the concept of "Moneyball for 2010-2020 decade" may go down in baseball lore as: 1) get as many supplemental draft picks as possible, 2) ignore high price - long term - older free agent guys, 3) be aggressive on "foreign" talent, 4) trade your spare parts for shiny bits.

I can see him using his additions from 1) to do number 4)s to get talent (most other teams get by paying for number 2)'s)  from number 3)s using number 4)s to fill in the thin spots. Eh?

Why sign the very good but slightly portly "Prince formerly named Son of Big Daddy" for X years at $100 million +, and in doing so lose a number one draft choice. Why not use that $100 million (closer to $130 million when considering the team bonus and the player contract) to sign "Darvish, Lord of the Rift, Gift of the Gods" - keep the number 1 draft choice and then trade some of his collection of young players (pitchers included) for a Cecil like bat - say Votto: you could call him Fielder Lite.

With Darvish and Romero (The Twin Aces) heading up a rotation also featuring the Young Gun Alvarez and the Return of the Lone McGowan - not to mention Bone Morrow and with all (unless traded) of Hutchison, Molina, McGuire and Jenkins breathing very hard on that first five's heels. Surely, that is an AL east contending starting rotation. With Votto (or whomever) as a bat acquired in trade and - viola - we're an honest to goodness contender in 2012 - AND for a decade or so thereafter.

Mission Accomplished - as our gone (but not missed) President Bush might have said.  

Ishai - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 03:13 PM EDT (#244596) #
If you had to sign one of Fielder, Pujols, or Yu to an identical contract (say, 5 years/150 including posting fee), which one would you choose?
greenfrog - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 03:38 PM EDT (#244597) #
If Yu is a true #2 (comparable to, say, Shields, Marcum or Cain), I want him. You would be getting his age-25 to 29 seasons. Those guys are hard to find. AA can always find someone to play 1B competently.
Richard S.S. - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#244598) #

A.A. will go hard after Darvish.  Here are a few reasons why.

C.C. Sabathia (31) will write his own contract, without him N.Y. has nothing.  He will get $175+ MM, possibly $200+ MM.   C.C. might be better than Romero, but with the lineup C.C. has, numbers can lie.  C.C. never has to pitch against the N.Y. lineup, so there's another advantage.  And then there's Rivera.

C.J. Wilson (30) can be considered the Star of a weak Free Agent class of Starters.   He will get $125+ MM, at a minimum.   Romero is definitely better than Wilson.  Yu Darvish (25) is probably better than Wilson.

A.A. is good at creating disinformation.  He will show interest in everyone, and never show his hand.   IMO, Darvish will need $65.0+ MM posting fee.  Signing him can be 4-7 years, $7.0 MM - $12.5.0 MM.  It`s possible $110.0 MM - $135.0 MM will be total cost to sign him (larger % of costs goes to posting, smaller % to signing).   Looking at what C.J. Wilson gets, the Darvish deal could be a bargain.

finch - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#244600) #
And it's important to factor in the addition ad revenue generated from foreign markets with an Asian Superstar on the roster. That will increase the value of Darvish when signed.
Magpie - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 05:28 PM EDT (#244603) #
Romero is definitely better than Wilson.

When did that happen? Not in 2011, that's for sure. I'm a huge Romero fan, but seriously, folks. He's younger, I expect he will be better than Wilson... but it hasn't happened yet.
hypobole - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 06:34 PM EDT (#244604) #

And it's important to factor in the addition ad revenue generated from foreign markets with an Asian Superstar on the roster. That will increase the value of Darvish when signed.

From what I've gleaned from AA, this could be the tipping point for the attempted acquisition of Darvish over C. J. Wilson.  Wilson may or may not be the better pitcher and provide more production on the field, but he won't provide much in additional revenue streams. AA has stated, IIRC, that he doesn't have a budget limit per se , but he does have to present a case for making more expensive acquisitions. If in fact, his marketing people believe signing Darvish WILL generate substantial revenue  increases for the Blue Jays club/Rogers, AA would be remiss if he didn't  present a case for getting involved in the Darvish sweepstakes.    

92-93 - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 07:09 PM EDT (#244605) #
CJ Wilson away from Arlington since becoming a SP in 2010 : 208.2ip 156h 89bb 187k 10hr 2.59era 1.17whip
Ricky Romero away from Skydome since the start of 2010 : 226ip 203h 83bb 167k 21hr 3.58era 1.27whip

If you're going to spend millions more per year on a relatively unknown Asian player you better have extensive scouting reports telling you it's worth it. Going after Darvish instead of Wilson just because he's 5 years younger seems silly to me, especially considering the mileage on Wilson's arm.
hypobole - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 07:44 PM EDT (#244606) #
92-93, youv'e just presented an excellent arguement why C. J. should be, along with resigning C. C., the top offseason priority for the Yankees.
DH - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#244609) #
A quick reminder, and only if my memory serves... Post Chapman signing with the Reds, AA was quoted that he regretted not having been more aggressive in chasing the Cuban. That might influence his strategy re Darvish.
TamRa - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 08:14 PM EDT (#244611) #
specifically, he said he regretted not having been better prepared with enough information to be confident in a higher bid. Clearly he was suggesting that in hindsight Chapman was worth a higher bid (and by implication he'd have been willing to spend more) - but he was not saying they "blinked" on the cost, just that he felt over-extended beyond his information base.


dan gordon - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#244613) #
The posting fee for Darvish is a sealed bid if I understand it correctly.  I expect the Jays to make a significant bid, but I would think one of the big spenders probably makes a very large, possibly kind of crazy bid that would trump what the Jays offer.  If nobody makes a nutty sized offer, the Jays probably have a reasonable chance of getting him.
John Northey - Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 10:08 PM EDT (#244614) #
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

When it comes to long term contracts take a look at the early days of free agency. Teams went nuts giving record deals for 7-10 years each to guys who they later deeply regretted giving them to. Teams calmed down a bit, players stopped demanding them (as they learned pay went up as time went by) and we stopped seeing 6+ year deals pretty much. Then after Delgado set the bar on a 4 year deal, the A-Rod deal was signed. We then saw total insanity ensue for years with loooong term deals for Manny, Jeter, and Hampton (among others) followed by a bit of a slowdown before the recent jump in them.

I suspect this winter teams will be a lot more hesitant on those 7+ year deals as they are extreme risks. Last winter's big 3 have 2 disasters and 1 that looks good (so far) although he missed significant time. Any GM who doesn't think twice after that should be fired on the spot.

Looking at the list from Thomas for 6+ years...
2010: Disaster: Werth, Crawford; nervous: Beltre (injuries)
2009: Success: Holliday but injuries again in year 2
2008: Teixeira: 141/124/114 OPS+ over those 3 years with ages 32/33/34/35/36 at over $20 mil to go...could be a mess
2007: A-Rod - think the Yanks wouldn't like to redo that one?
2006: Soriano - many viewed as the most untradable deal outside of Wells, Lee wasn't great (125/144/119/91/118 OPS+'s with injuries during the 144) for a LF/1B to put it mildly.

So of all those 6+ year deals I'd say the only ones that aren't regretted are Holliday (so far) and Beltre (so far).

Thus, who here wants the Jays to jump in and do a 6+ year deal? Phew, AA's hand wasn't up. Any GM who does it for $20+ a year for 6+ guaranteed is, imo, being fooling with the owners money. I suspect few GM's will even think about 6+ year deals this winter. It takes two to tango and unless the GM's didn't do what I just did in a few seconds they will avoid those super-long deals.

Also of note: salaries are starting to climb again. It is amazing that no one outside of a pro-rated Clemens has passed A-Rod's annual value from 2001. A decade without anyone breaking new ground (outside of A-Rod himself) is unheard of in the free agency era. The union will push guys hard to break the current record, even if on a shorter term deal. Once $30 million is broken it will be broken again and again like $20 mil is now - or at least the union will think so. I fully expect Pujols or Fielder will push hard to be the first to do so. Fielder could be rewarded with a new record in a few years.
TamRa - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 02:35 AM EDT (#244622) #
The Team is a Front-Of-The Rotation Starter, a good Closer, a top Reliever and a Big Scary Bat away from contending next year. 

I'd argue it's considerably closer than that.

If "contending" is being on track to win 90 games more or less, then what we are looking for is something in the neighborhood of +7 wins. you don't need all that to get in that neighborhood.

You need Snider being what he's cracked up to be, or Thames doing it for him....you need Lind playing all year at something similar to how he played the first half...you need a good pitcher (like McGowan) breaking camp in the spot that JoJo Reyes had this year...you need Brett Lawrie playing 150 games...if you win ONE more game because each of these things happen you are halfway to your goal right there.


Here's an idea of just a sort of "continued growth" roster next year (as opposed to a "going for it roster - see below):

C: JPA, Ramon Castro (or a similar acquisistion)
1B: Lind
2B: Scutaro (for the sake of argument)
SS: Escobar
3B: Lawrie
RF: Bautista
CF: Rasmus
LF: Snider/Thames
DH: EE
Bench: Loewen, McDonald

SP: Romero, McGowan, Morrow, Alvarez, Cecil, Drabek,
RP: Janssen, Listch, Villianueva, Carreno, Perez (+2 others - I'm thinking Romo for closer and a another LH....though the idea of catching Broxton on the rebound might have some merit...)

minor league pitchers who may well play in the bigs at some point possibly - Molina, Hutch, McGuire, Jenkins, Beck

THAT team could make a run at 89, 90 wins next year with just an ordinary number of breaks.

Now, if you want a "going for it" roster then you might:

Throw a big offer at the Reds for Votto
Go out and sign Bedard away from Boston (the best candidate domestically, IMO, because if he goes down we have tremendous depth to fill the slot) or land Darvish
Be a LITTLE more generous in how you restock the bullpen.
Re-sign Johnson

And you have this:

Escobar - SS
Rasmus - CF
Bautista - RF
Votto - 1B
Lawrie - 3B
Lind - DH
Arencibia - C
Snider/Thames- LF
Johnson - 2B
Bench: EE, Loewen, McDonald, Castro

SP: Romero, McGowan, Bedard, Morrow, Alvarez
RP: Romo*, Janssen, Cecil, Listch, Villianueva, Carreno, Perez



then yeah, if you do that you are as good a bet to win the division as the big boys (again, assuming an ordinary number of breaks - particularly unusual health from Bedard and McGowan) - and I HOPE they do that, I WANT them to do that - mainly because you CAN do that without wreaking the Plan.

BUT

I still say the former roster can in theory contend, just as an underdog instead of as a heavyweight.

TamRa - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 02:57 AM EDT (#244623) #
Let's be serious about this: to all who think going hard after Votto is a good idea, even a better one than a long term offer to Pujols/Fielder (which I do) what exactly are the limits of what you would pay for him?

Obviously you don't want to deplete a key area. so you would trade, say, 4 SP in the deal, so you can kind of group the prosects in groups in which you would say "one from group a and one from group b" and so forth.

Secondly, you have to be aware of relative needs: they have two good catcher prospects so our depth there won't help us, and we have a lack of depth at 3B so that's not helpful, Hamilton is a few years away but he's probably the focus at 2B, and there top 10 list pre-season had only one pitcher, at #10.

so on our prospect list you have to start with probably 2 premium SP, and if they really liked one of the outfielders to go with Stubbs and Bruce you do that and then you can drop down into the lower minors to add something for the long term value (to them)

So

Group A - McGuire, Jenkins, Molina, Hutchison, Drabek

Group B - Snider, Thames, Gose, Sierra, Loewen?

Group C - Syndergaard, Sanchez, Nicolino, Cardona, Marisnick, Knecht, Crouse, Wojo, Hawkins, Thon


I think it's reasonable to say 2 from A, 1 from B, and one from C

So I'm thinking you do something like McGuire and one of Molina or Hutchison, plus Snider and then see how far apart you are and how good the guy from C needs to be to close the gap.

Mind you, i LOVE Travis Snider and believe in him, but Votto can do so much for the team and the LF options going forward are so numerous (and no, I don't buy the foolishness that he has little value left)

Of all the minor leaguers I mentioned, the one guy i would refuse to include is Marisnick. but I would also not put Hutch and Molina in the same deal (and would rather not include either, even if it meant 2 players from "C") and all those guys are guys i really like (though I'm less enthused with McGuire, Wojo and Jenkins than the rest)

If i could make my ideal deal out of this (the one I'd make if i was more or less dictating terms to the Reds) it would be this:

Jenkins or Drabek + Sierra + Wojo + Thon

Anyway, the main point is, at what point does the price get too high for you and you'd rather do the 8 year deal with a FA or do nothing?

for my part, as much as I'd know I was overpaying, I might go as high as six guys off that list if it were the right six.


The_Game - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 03:06 AM EDT (#244624) #
The Jays are a big bat and a dependable starter away from contending next season. Rogers could easily pay for something like that, it's just a question of whether they're willing to do so.

The answer to that question, however, is almost assuredly no.
uglyone - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 04:52 AM EDT (#244625) #
I'm not so sure the red sox are going to be quite the big spenders this year that many seem to think.

they made it pretty clear to their fanbase this year that.they didn't have any money to go after a big-money midseason addition, amd that their offseason spending had pretty much maxed their payroll out....at about $160m.

even with ort, drew, paps, and ellsbury unsigned for next year they're still committed to over $125m next year already...and i'm pretty sure they're not going to want to let ort, paps, or ells go...and those three will easily cost them $30+m to bring them right back up to the $160m level without having made any improvements to the roster.

I'm really not sure they have the payroll to go after the biggest free agents on the market, and if they do, it'll likely only be one of them.
They might go after Yu but i'm not sure they can go crazy in the bidding. theo seems to have finally backed himself into a corner with awful contracts.


as for NY...i'm assuming they get wilson, and i doubt they sign two big money pitchers.
Flex - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 09:45 AM EDT (#244626) #
As much as I'd love to believe we're one bat and one arm away from contention for a wild card, we have to remember that we had only one player who finished this year above .800 OPS. Yes he finished at the very top, but still, only one. Boston had five. New York had four. Tampa Bay had four.

Looking ahead to next year, we can hope and even presume that Lawrie will finish there. Lind only maybe. So to me that's a two-bat need. Plus a stud arm. Then I'd feel better about our chances.
bpoz - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 10:37 AM EDT (#244628) #
Flex, I like your .800 OPS angle. That seems to fit nicely with AA's overall plan.
I don't know AA's time table but when he is sure of 4-5 .800 OPS guys, then he may try to buy an extra and maybe fill in holes he sees
For now it seems trades & potential .800 OPS guys.
Magpie - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 01:17 PM EDT (#244630) #
The Jays are a big bat and a dependable starter away from contending next season.

Contending for third place, sure. They need quite a bit more than that to contend for first place.
dan gordon - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#244631) #

They need to get the bullpen issues resolved.  Contending teams usually have a strong, deep bullpen.  Those late inning losses just kill you. 

Their baserunning appears to be getting worse again - not as bad as it was at the start of the year, but lately it seems they are getting a lot of runners burned on the basepaths again.  Bautista nailed taking a big turn at 2B the other day to negate a run, Johnson caught trying to steal 2nd when they had runners at the corners with only 1 out, Arencibia thrown out by a mile trying for a double, and a few other such plays.  I just heard Farrell say on the Fan he thinks one of the accomplishments this season is that the team can now score runs with their more aggressive baserunning - it's like when it works, he remembers it, but when it costs them a run he ignores it.  I think the aggressive baserunning has cost them more runs than it has added, and the team has a definite weakness there as a result.  It is worrisome in that Farrell seems to like it.  I would love to see a stat showing baserunners lost during the season from things like caught stealing, picked off base, thrown out trying for an extra base, etc, and see how the Jays compare to other teams.

Magpie - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 02:28 PM EDT (#244632) #
I would love to see a stat showing baserunners lost during the season from things like caught stealing, picked off base, thrown out trying for an extra base, etc, and see how the Jays compare to other teams.

The Blue Jays have indeed had a lot of runners caught stealing. They've 128 stolen bases and had 51 caught stealing, which is a 71.5% success rate. They're breaking even, it's not having an impact for good or bad.

As for base running in general, they've lost 45 base runners to various mishaps - thrown out trying to take an extra base, advancing on a fly ball, etc. That's a very, very good figure. The only teams that have lost fewer men on the bases this way are Cleveland and Texas, which have each lost 44. The Angels have lost 70, Detroit, Boston, and Kansas City have each lost more than 60.
Richard S.S. - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 03:05 PM EDT (#244633) #

I almost agree with TamRa.   Here's where I differ.

Starters:  Romero, new acquisition, Morrow, Alvarez, One of: McGowan, Cecil, Drabek or Perez.     Relievers:  Closer, Janssen, Litsch, Villanueva, Beck, someone 1, someone 2.     Infield: 1B:  Lind,  2B: someone 3SS: Escobar,  3B: Lawrie,  C: Arencibia,  DH: Big Scary Bat or Encarnacion.     Outfield:  RF: Bautista,  CF: Rasmus,  LF: One of: Loewen, Thames or Snider.    Bench:  LF/CF/RF: Davis,  LF/RF/1B/3B:  Teahen,  IF/OF: McCoy,  2nd C: someone 4.

new acquisition: I would prefer someone equal to / better than Romero.   If  uglyone - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 04:52 AM EDT (#244625) # is accurate, and I think it might be so, acquiring Yu Darvish, if he's posted, might be easier.    If A.A. can trade for someone like this, otherwise C.C. or C.J. would be nice, but possibly too expensive.

Closer: It would be nice to get a #1 Closer on the market, but A.A. said he was signing a couple Closer-candidates for this purpose.

someone 1, someone 2: With A.A. possibly adding 2+ relievers this offseason, there will be little room for anyone other than Janssen, Litsch and Villanueva.  Does Beck, Correno, McGowan, Cecil, Drabek or Perez have a spot on this roster.

someone 3: Johnson is the likely 2B, but A.A.'s decision here is fine.

Big Scary Bat:  Every one knows what I want here.  Some teams have 3 or 4 and are in the postseason often.   We have 1, there are presently none developing in the minors, and maybe one developing on the team.  If A.A. can't get  the right asset, he's better with E.E.

someone 4: Is Jeroloman the answer?

grjas - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#244634) #
The Jays are a big bat and a dependable starter away from contending next season.
you need a good pitcher (like McGowan) breaking camp in the spot that JoJo Reyes had this year


Ok guys, we are starting to sound like Leaf fans. Optimism rains supreme.

Jo Jo Reyes- 5-8 ERA 5.40 vs his replacements:

L Perez- 3-3 ERA 5.20
D McGowan- 0-1; ERA- 6.40
B Mills- 1-2; ERA- 9.80
K Drabek- 4-5; ERA- 6.03
B Cecil- 4-11, ERA- 4.73

We are in fact one big bat (Jose) and one dependable starter (RIcky) away from the Baltimore Orioles. 

And if we pop off the rose coloured glasses and take a critical look,  this is not a rotation that betters the Rays. This in fact is one of the worst pitching Jay teams of the last decade.

Yes the farm teams are restocked which offers promise, and yes there are some good arms a few years away. But let's give our heads a good shake. We're not going after Prince Fielder and we ain't ready for him. Not even close.


adrianveidt - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 05:29 PM EDT (#244635) #
If you don't count all the possible starters, like Alvarez, Drabek, Hutchinson, McGowan et al. who would end up being excellent but are unproven, I'd say the Jays need 3 new starters, a lockdown closer , more good arms in the pen, a second baseman, an earth-shattering bat at DH, and something better than they've gotten thus far in LF.

By itself, the organization might solve some of these problems with the tremendous depth in the system. Rasmus might all of a sudden turn into a huge bat in CF. Snider might all of a sudden turn into a 30+HR guy. The Yankees and Red Sox might have down years. But without a big $$$ commitment from Rogers I don't see contention next year.
The_Game - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 05:41 PM EDT (#244636) #
Contending for the playoffs. Something this team hasn't done in two decades.
TamRa - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 05:47 PM EDT (#244637) #
Ok guys, we are starting to sound like Leaf fans. Optimism rains supreme.

Man, if you call what you see in this thread from everyone other than me optimism, it must be very dark and gloomy in your world.

To be clear, I'm not insisting we WILL contend next year, I'm arguing that it's closer than has been described, but more importantly that for the long term goals, bringing in, say, a Wilson which blocks out someone like Alvarez or eventually Hutchison from contributing....bringing in, say, Carlos Beltran for three years thus gumming up the development of Snider, Thames, Gose etc is exactly the WRONG thing to do and you can bet your season tickets it's 180 degrees opposite to what alex WILL do.

if you are convinced that this team is little better than the orioles and a long long way from contention in 2012 as it stands, then you might as well resign yourself to another year much like this year and last year because the Jays will NOT try to go out and buy contention. they WILL do everything they can to leave the door open for players like Snider and Drabek to develop and for Rasums and Morrow to finish blossoming.

if these enough of things happen, they will contend, of not, then they will win 80-85 games again next year and the Plan will continue.


The_Game - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#244638) #
Apparently there are a few here that don't realize how good this team is right now. Or are just looking for any excuse not to spend money. Could be both.

The Jays are going to finish with 82 wins or so despite playing with a bunch of replacement-level players for half the season in the toughest division in baseball. And that was with only a few hitters and pitchers even playing at or above expectations for the full season (Bautista, Encarnacion, Arencibia, Romero?). If Lawrie and Thames were on the team from the beginning, they also would have won quite a bit more than that.

To put all of that another way, if they had gotten only 8 more wins, they would have made the playoffs this season. If you can acquire players that will make up that 8 win difference in the offseason for cost of Rogers' money, why wouldn't you do that? To ensure another year of pointless mediocrity and "team building?" Another year of a below average payroll (which would make 11 of the last 12 seasons under Rogers) and 80+ wins?

The Jays are capable of winning now if they choose to. Rogers only has to make that choice.


dan gordon - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#244639) #

As for base running in general, they've lost 45 base runners to various mishaps - thrown out trying to take an extra base, advancing on a fly ball, etc. That's a very, very good figure

Thanks for the interesting data.  Where do you get this from?

BlueJayWay - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 06:24 PM EDT (#244640) #
Baseball Reference has the answer to any question worth asking.
dan gordon - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#244641) #

OK, found it on baseball-reference.  The 45 does not include caught stealing or pickoffs.   They also show an interesting number called "pickoff caught stealing", which is included in the pickoffs number and in the caught stealing number.  If you add the pickoffs that aren't "pickoff caught stealing" to the "outs on base" number, the Jays are at 58 baserunners lost.  The league average would be 66.  I'm surprised they aren't worse than that, especially considering they had Patterson on the team for quite a while.  Good to know.

Magpie - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 07:18 PM EDT (#244642) #
If Lawrie and Thames were on the team from the beginning, they also would have won quite a bit more than that.

If by "quite a few" you mean "two or three,"  I agree. I certainly don't think having them here all year would have done much about the team's biggest problem - the 748 (and counting!) runs allowed. Better than Kansas City. Better than Minnesota. Better than Baltimore.

Worse than everybody else.
TamRa - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 07:32 PM EDT (#244643) #
The basis for my optimism is what they CAN do, not what they necessarily WILL do.

If you check BR, Romero is already one of the 5 or 6 best pitchers in franchise history. No one much disputes his contributions.

McGowan might very well blow up before he gets out of ST, but if he did manage 28-30 starts, there's every reason to believe, based on scouting and so forth, that they will be well above average starts.

Morrow, obviously, needs to consolidate his talent into consistant results, but you could have said (and many did say) the same thing about Verlander 3 years ago - talent is talent and it's not like he's gone down in spectacular flames like Matsuz.

Alvarez is a matter of projecting off a relatively small sample, and might well regress, but it's not altogether impossible that he doesn't.

Cecil is a bit of a strange case, and I'll freely admit that it's possible he could turn out to not be one of our best five starters. but as Wilner tweeted earlier, he's pitched on the season pretty much just like he did last year, just with higher peaks and lower valleys. His per-9 rates this year are virtually identical to last year. Except for HR. Mre to the point, when comparing to other teams, the Rays carried one guy in their rotation all year who's slightly worse than Cecil and another who's only marginally better. so don't say a guy like Cecil can't pitch for a contender.

Yes, that's one dependable guy and four with question marks. Which, by the way, is exactly what the new York Yankees entered the season with. There is exactly no less chance that McGowan, Morrow, and Alvarez can pitch for a contender in 2012 than their was that Colon, Garcia, and Nova could have carried the heart of the Yankees in 2011 - in point of fact, there's a substantially GREATER chance.

McGowan's health is not that much more undependable than Colon's was one year ago (and who's up for Dusty getting a shot of stem cells in that shoulder after the season?) Morrow is much younger and more promising going forward than Garcia was one year ago, and is there anyone who thinks nova is a better pitcher than Alvarez? Heck, Id go so far as to say Cecil is as good a bet as Hughes was a year ago.

Those three questionable guys combined for an ERA of 3.76.

OF COURSE McGowan could fall apart physically and Morrow fall apart mentally and Alvarez stumble badly. My question is why do we, as fans, ASSUME such things are LIKELY? the worst case is no more likely than the best case - and it doesn't even take the best case for us to be contenders (as far as the rotation goes).

No, we don't have a Matt Moore knocking on the door. Neither does NY or Boston. but we do have a guy who was a Top 40 prospect in the whole sport one year ago, we have two guys who were absolutely insane in AA and a couple of more who were first round picks all of which the GM thinks should be capeable of challenging for a role in 2012, AND we have no less than FOUR reasonably good falback options who project to be pushed to the bullpen because of the depth of quality guys.

Listch alone (when healthy) has as good as or better chance at being a league average starter as two of the pitchers who spent the year in the Rays rotation, and all but three of the guys in the Red Sox group and all but one of the guys who might pitch for the Yankees in the first week of next season. And he's very likely not going to be good enough to make our front five.

Turn to the bullpen - I won't break it down player by player, I'll just point out that one year ago the Rays were looking at a virtually empty bullpen...and they ended up in pretty good shape. We start from a much stronger position.

Lineup? Again, let's speak of what they CAN do.

JPA self evidently CAN hit in the same league with Salty and martin if not better, and much better than Jaso.

Escobar can and does hit and field better than the SS who play for our rivals.

Lawrie, though an obvious candidate for regression, has in a small sample hit better than any 3B in the AL and his fielding has been fine.He'll have to keep this up to stay in the same neighborhood as your typical year from Youk or Longoria. But on the other hand, Youk will be 33 next year and might be breaking down some.

Bautista. Yeah.

Rasmus, in 2010 Rasmus posted an .859 OPS and was widely considered to just be starting to approach his ceiling. He can easily be (likely already is) better than Upton and while he will never steal as many bases, he may have a ceiling otherwise that looks a lot like Elsbury  Even if he doesn't reach that, if he only repeats what he's already done once, he's no embarrassment compared to our rivals

to put a finer point on it - Granderson's career OPS coming into 2011 was .822. Even now it's only .840
Elsbury's was .749, now it's .801
Upton's was .758 and no it's .756
Rasmus came in with a .786 and now it's .759
But his best year in a very short career was .859
Which is better than any of the other three had on their career one year ago. And better than any of them have on their career NOW.

Want more? Here's the four players, with their ages, ranked by ther 2010 OPS:

1. Rasmus, 23, .859
2. Granderson, 29, .792 (pretty obvious career year in '11)
3. Upton, 25, .745
4. Ellsbury, 26, .485 (injury - at 25 in 2009 it was .770)

So, ya know, tell me again how Rasmus takes a back seat to these guys?

Encarncion - DH, can't hang with Ortiz (who is a FA but i'll concede him back to the Sox, but even if you include his awful early start, he's better than what the Rays and Yankees employed in that role this year. Since May 29 his OPS sits at .879 which would make him the 2nd best DH in the AL.

Lind - yes, this is a potential problem. He HAS posted an OPS worthy of the 1B playing in NY and Boston - 2 years ago. He did a similar thing for the first 46 games of this season but since then, until the last week, he's been astonishingly bad. i make no predictions or assertions that he WILL get back to his peak next year. but i can say that he COULD do it. This is, frankly, pretty much the biggest "if" in this post and don't go away thinking I'm confident in Lind for 2012. Using oWAR from B-R, Lind was a 4 WAR player in 2009 and he's sitting on 0.7 this year. s that's about a three win swing and if he maintained this production next year, those might be critical.
BUT
If you are close enough that those 3 wins cost you a playoff spot - you are a contender. non-contenders don't finish 3 games out.

Left field - Carl Crawford's career OPS is .775, his peak is .851; Brett Gardner's career OPS is .724 and his peak is .762; meanwhile Eric Thames is sitting on .782 in his rookie year, and Travis Snider was at .767 as a 22 year old in 2010.
(Yes, Desmond Jennings is likely to be better than all of them, but he might end up in CF if Upton is dealt and there's no impressive guy to take over LF)
Point being, if they DON'T get better, neither Thames nor Snider is shamed by the competition in NY and Boston.

That leaves 2B. There's no real argument that the Jays are likely to come up with a guy who can play with Cano, Pedroia, and Zobrist. AA could, i assume, shock us but I'm assuming this - even if we re-sign Johnson - is going to be the poistion that simply can't be expected to measure up.

YES there is a lot that can go wrong with that - Lawrie could regress, Lind could take the Hill-track, Rasmus could not step up, Bautista could lose a few steps (given he's the "old guy" here), Arencibia could have a sophmore slump, and so forth.

But JUST as possibly, Rasmus could hit at least as well as he already has, Lind could find a middle ground between 2009 and 2011, Lawrie could be every bit as good as he's looked, Snider could find his comfort zone (or Thames could continue to exceed expectations or both) JPA could refine his contact a bit, and so forth.

There's not one dispassionate reason why the former set of possibilities is more likely than the latter set. 

does this mean I'm against adding Votto and Darvish? HECK NO. obviously not.

Does it mean I'm against adding Wilson and (for instance) Josh Willingham?

Yup.

Am I willing to gamble on the bad outcome for the chance at the good one, whether it's 2012 or 2013? I am.

For the life of me i can't fathom why theirs so much doom and gloom about. I don't argue this team, going forward,  is a 95 game winning juggernaut (though it could be with the addition of Votto and a few other competent players) but it sure as heck is not some sort of "barely better than Baltimore" sub-.500 wasteland either.

I have no idea how people can see it that way (and yall probably have no idea why i see it my way either ;)


sam - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 07:34 PM EDT (#244644) #
I agree with grjas. I see the Jays closer to the Orioles than to the Rays. I think we assume too much out of players who have little to no track record at the ML level.
TamRa - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 07:42 PM EDT (#244645) #
If Lawrie and Thames were on the team from the beginning, they also would have won quite a bit more than that.
---------------
If by "quite a few" you mean "two or three,"  I agree. I certainly don't think having them here all year would have done much about the team's biggest problem - the 748 (and counting!) runs allowed. Better than Kansas City. Better than Minnesota. Better than Baltimore.

Worse than everybody else.


But the "what if" doesn't stop with the offense.

What if Alvarez had been ready to break camp in the rotation instead of Reyes?

What if McGowan had started the year with the Jays (healthy) instead of Drabek?

What if Thames had gotten all the ABs that went to Patterson?

What if Lawrie had gotten all the starts at 3B?

What if Perez and Carreno had the 35+ innings that went to shclubs like Ledzma & Co?

If you pick up 2 wins on Lawrie, and 1 on each of those other remarks you are TWO GAMES behind the Rays who are on the cusp of the playoffs

Of course, it's possible if they'd been like that from day one that Alvarez might have went off a cliff the 2nd time around the league, Lawrie might have been adjusted to and had the sort of slump JP had...

That's not the point - the point is that in 2012 there won't be a Reyes, a Rivera, a Patterson, a Nix getting starts on this team.

bball12 - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 07:46 PM EDT (#244646) #
All the numerical analysis in the world will not overcome the actual play on the field.

I wanted to puke last last night watching this team.

A mess - this team is a long long way from contending from anything

A disgusting mess.





TamRa - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#244647) #
I agree with grjas. I see the Jays closer to the Orioles than to the Rays. I think we assume too much out of players who have little to no track record at the ML level.

"we" DON'T assume.

I assume

Pretty much everyone else here sounds like they are watching a 90 loss team.

and my counter argument is yall assume too much out of the rivals. Granderson isn't going to be an MVP candidate every year, possibly never again (and yes, i know that's what was said of Bautista but we knew who Granderson was before this year, he didn't re-invent himself) to name just one example.

A-Rod is in a pretty obvious decline, Tex is good but off his peak, jeter is winding down, Gardner is nothing to be scared of at the plate, DH is depending on a rookie, the Yankee rotation is patched together with guys who are not remotely a lock to repeat.
Take away CC, Granderson, and Cano and that's a pretty average team beyond the back of the bullpen.

the Red Sox obviously have cracks as are being exposed even as we speak. The oh-so weak Jays might very well finish within 7 or 8 games of "the best team in the league" and they likely don't even have any more budget room to throw money at the problem.

If you read my tome above, i'm not expecting any player on the team to do something they haven't already shown themselves capeable of - and only with Morrow and McGowan am i even expecting something they have not already DONE.

I'm just throwing some cold water on how high the mountain is - it's not so steep as yall seem to think IMO.
TamRa - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 07:54 PM EDT (#244648) #
I wanted to puke last last night watching this team.

A mess - this team is a long long way from contending from anything

A disgusting mess.

Sounds very much like the voice of a Red Sox fan reflecting on the last MONTH, not just one game.

Spifficus - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#244649) #

With all the potential rotation instability next year, what I find most important is the stable of 5 guys that should be available to fill in if McGowan has a setback or Alvarez needs more development. Between Drabek, Jennings, McGuire, and after that Hutchinson and Molina, the potential is there to cover any injuries or sub-par performances in the back half of the rotation.

Of course, that's all after hopefully getting someone to pitch with Romero at the front of the rotation. Should be easy to do, right? Past that, I just don't see Cecil having a big future with the team, and I think he'll be used to bring in something else of use (Morrison?).

bball12 - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 08:02 PM EDT (#244650) #
Tamra - make no mistake about it - I am no Red Sox fan
There is no excuse for that type of baseball.
None.

An embarassing mess.

If you are going to go down - at least go down fighting - go down like a warrior - and not like this.

Disgusting,

Anyone associated with it should be embarassed and - if they give a **** at all - very concerned.








TamRa - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#244651) #
To put all of that another way, if they had gotten only 8 more wins, they would have made the playoffs this season. If you can acquire players that will make up that 8 win difference in the offseason for cost of Rogers' money, why wouldn't you do that? To ensure another year of pointless mediocrity and "team building?" Another year of a below average payroll (which would make 11 of the last 12 seasons under Rogers) and 80+ wins?

Again, I preface by saying i am NOT AGAINST going hard to add Votto and Darvish. but that said, you say we need 8 wins - ok.

Lawrie plays all year without regression = +2
Rasmus hits like he hit in 2010 = +2
Snider hits like he hit in 2010 = +1
Lind recovers 1/3 of the value difference between 2009 and 2011 = +1
Morrow's results match his xFIP = +2
McGowan is healthy in the rotation all year = +2
Alvarez in the rotation all year without regression = +1
Carreno, Perez, and imports replace steady bullpen work from Zep, Frasor, and Dotel = even

that's not a result of baseball calculus, i'm just spitballing - but I don't think anything there is an irrational expectation. and that is +11 wins.

I agree with you the team is better than most here suggest (and am kind of stunned to be finding anyone on that page with me) and i agree that a couple of key acquisitions will produce a very good team indeed.

i don't neccesarily agree that the opportunity is wasted if we don't go out and double the payroll. SMART, targeted spending I'm all about. promising $220 million to fielder just because Rogers has it to spend - not so much.

And i don'''t concede they can ONLY contend with said spending.
Spifficus - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#244652) #
Games like that happen to every team. For all the talk of doing things the Twins Way, for example, they have at least a few Bad News Bears games a year. That's all you can do is treat it like a closer, and move on the next day. I don't even want to say "Try not to do it again," because trying to do things at a high level while playing the avoidance game just doesn't work.
bball12 - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 08:13 PM EDT (#244653) #
Its the first time in a long time that I wanted to sledgehammer my screen.



Ryan C - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 08:16 PM EDT (#244654) #
that's not a result of baseball calculus, i'm just spitballing - but I don't think anything there is an irrational expectation.

I guess the counter-argument would be that expecting all of those things to fall the right way, with nothing else extra or unexpected falling the wrong way, is in itself an irrational expectation.
TamRa - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 08:16 PM EDT (#244655) #
If you are going to go down - at least go down fighting - go down like a warrior - and not like this.

Disgusting,

Anyone associated with it should be embarassed and - if they give a **** at all - very concerned.


You realize we are discussing here a game which featured:

1. a AAA journeyman at SS because the starter is out for the season;
2. a very inexperienced (in the majors) 1B you's blessed with a reputation as a poor defender, who's in the game because the regular guy (who's a good defender) is with his wife while she gives birth;
3. a 3B who, while he didn't contribute to the fiasco, lost the position because of defensive incompetence and again is only there because of injury;
4. a 2B who's relatively new to his teammates and a CF who has himself only been here a couple of months (who made one obvious mistake in conjunction with each other)

Take any team in the league, make a similar set of substitutions, and you'll see some errors. it's not exactly like that was the A Squad out there. I'm really not sure what you expected from that infield.

and yes, you can say "why not play the A Squad?"

Well, because two key players are injured and another is out of town.


also, why is Saturday night's game so much more indicitive than Friday night's game was?
electric carrot - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 08:16 PM EDT (#244656) #
Are the 2011 Boston Red Sox the most Jeckyl & Hyde team of all time?  After a disastrous April they were killer right up till September whereupon they morph back into the Houston Astros with a hangover. 
Spifficus - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 08:25 PM EDT (#244657) #

Its the first time in a long time that I wanted to sledgehammer my screen.

Meh. Any one of those plays happen from time to time. What was car-wreck-intriguing is that they were happening in bunches, and at the worst possible times.

bball12 - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 08:29 PM EDT (#244658) #
Tamra
No - simple as that - just No
They shouldnt even get paid - if they had any pride they would refuse the pay.

If I were the GM -  I swear to God -  I would let every player on this team know that if they ever watched a ball drop in front of them again they would be fired as soon as it hit the ground.

A disgrace and an embarassment to anyone who cares about this team.

A godda** joke.










bball12 - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 08:33 PM EDT (#244659) #
Spifficus - the "Meh" attitude is one of the reasons why this team hasnt won anything in 20 years.

Simple as that.

AA better get some guys on this team that have pride and that play hard to the last second of each and every game.

If he doesnt - they wont win anything for another 20 years - regardless of trades - statistics and their so-called "tools"

Sickening to watch. A disgrace.



Thomas - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 08:33 PM EDT (#244660) #
Does it mean I'm against adding Wilson and (for instance) Josh Willingham? Yup.

I can't understand this sentiment at all. In 2010, CJ Wilson was 9th in the AL (min 160 IP) in WAR and 12th in FIP. In 2011, he's 4th in WAR and 9th in FIP. His ERA+ over the past 2 seasons is somewhere around 142. Brandon Morrow has never had a season as a starter with an ERA+ over 100. Dustin's McGowan's best ERA+ was 110 in 2007. Dustin McGowan is one year younger than C.J. Wilson.

Jays fans would be pinching themselves if one of McGowan or Morrow turned into what Wilson has been the past two seasons. I could understand an argument that any offer to C.J. Wilson should not exceed a certain number of years because of the unpredictability of pitchers or should not exceed a certain dollar amount. I am completely unable to understand an argument that the Jays should be "against adding" Wilson because of the presence of McGowan, Morrow, Cecil and a few pitching prospects.

Spifficus - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 08:37 PM EDT (#244661) #
Ok, someone needs to come back from the edge a bit... the "meh" attitude is for the recognition that this actually happens throughout baseball, or have you never seen blooper reels before... even great players? I mean, think of how often a fan gets handed a ball with runners on and just two outs; that one seems to happen every other week. Talk about your ultimate mental lapses... But the Larry Walkers and Joe Carters of the world were able to get over it.
TamRa - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 08:45 PM EDT (#244662) #
I guess the counter-argument would be that expecting all of those things to fall the right way, with nothing else extra or unexpected falling the wrong way, is in itself an irrational expectation.

Indeed. But no less so than assuming everything that might go wrong - WILL.

But even so, it's not like I'm suggesting wildly optimistic things. I'm not suggesting JPA is the new Piazza, I'm not suggesting Rasmus has an MVP type year, I'm not suggesting Cecil competes for an ERA title. - I'm suggesting things that players either HAVE done or are self evidently capeable of.

Lawrie doesn't have to be as good as he was this year to be 2 games better than the collection of stiff who maned 3B before him. And so forth.  but the same people who tell me i can't assume that about Lawrie will fail to calculate that you can't make those assumptions about 75% of the players on the Rays, Yanks, and Sox either.

I actually DON'T argue that i can EXPECT 90 wins out of this team with no high-profile additions. Right now i'd suggest something more like 86 or so. but the range of "if everything goes right" to "if everything goes wrong" does include, at the upper in, the low-90's IMO

I think the range for next years team right now, going into the winter, is 81-91 wins. To me, that's not wild-eyed optimisim.

TamRa - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 08:48 PM EDT (#244663) #
I could understand an argument that any offer to C.J. Wilson should not exceed a certain number of years because of the unpredictability of pitchers or should not exceed a certain dollar amount.

That's precisely the point though. whoever signs wilson WILL sign him for 5 years or more. go ahead and write it in ink.

if we could sign him for 2 years sure, i would be ok with it. (though I still think it would be largely unnecessary) but that's never going to happen.

Can we sign Bedard for one year, or one and an option? great1 i'm all about that.

bball12 - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 08:50 PM EDT (#244664) #
Spifficus - youre inference about the "edge" isnt necessary. It implies irrationality at best.
I can assure you - I am not irrational - I just care about the game - and the team.
I care about integrity

You need to understand that some people really care about this game - in their heart - deeply - and to watch this garbage hurts them.
I know it hurts me.

Watching garbage hurts me - and if it doesnt have the same effect on Blue Jays management - get ready for another 20 years of losing.







Spifficus - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#244665) #

I think looking at something like the events of last night and assuming they're the norm, or that they don't happen to most players is irrational. All teams have points where they look horrific. I don't follow how this is a matter of integrity. I'm sure Rasmus wanted that fly ball caught, he just thought Johnson had it. I'm sure Cooper wanted to catch that fly ball (and was a little too eager to try to catch the next one, giving his best flyswatter to Arencibia's face). I'm sure McCoy wanted to... etc etc etc. It's not a lack of want. They're errors for a reason (or not errors, for stupid score keeper reasons). Errors, both physical and mental (the ones that look really ugly) happen, and happen all the time, to all teams. This isn't about another 20 years of losing; ALL teams go through this. Every one of them. Without exception. Bar none. Yeah, it sucks when it happens, but this isn't some phenomenon isolated to the wilds of the streets of Toronto. Ballparks across both nations get treated to this brand of play. To believe that it's just here, with just this team is quite irrational.

Magpie - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 09:24 PM EDT (#244666) #
you could have said (and many did say) the same thing about Verlander 3 years ago

I don't remember that, but I may just have a short memory for other people's... uh, foolishness. (Whereas mine, like the evil men do, lives forever!) Anyway, three years ago, Justin Verlander was a 25 year old pitcher who had already posted seasons of 17-9 and 18-6 in the American League, who had already won Rookie of the Year, who had already been named to an All-Star team. None of which I can quite remember Morrow having done, so I don't quite see the parallel.
bball12 - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 09:27 PM EDT (#244667) #
Sorry Spiff - I giving a thumbs down to you on this one.
Winners dont accept that type of play.
Winners play right to the very end - and die trying.
If Farrell had any sense - he would have walked on the field and escorted his sorry a** onto the next plane home.
If this team allows one more play like that - one more Rivera - Rasmus " I dont give a sh** play"  - and takes no action - I am done with this team.

Management needs to grow a pair - very quickly. They need to act and manage like winners - not like wimps protecting their jobs.
I am sick of watching this and then yapping incessantly about what will happen in the future.
Arguing about stats and strategy when the guys on the field not only stink - but dont even play hard.

Just sick of it.










Thomas - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#244668) #
That's precisely the point though. whoever signs wilson WILL sign him for 5 years or more. go ahead and write it in ink. if we could sign him for 2 years sure, i would be ok with it. (though I still think it would be largely unnecessary) but that's never going to happen.

First of all, I don't understand any argument that signing Wilson for two years, if it was possible, would be signing "largely unnecessary." However, to get to the heart of the matter, I agree that someone will sign Wilson for five or more years. I never said otherwise.

What I said was that I could understand an argument that signing Wilson for five years was too risky or that he wasn't the right pitcher to sign for five years. You didn't argue that (or it didn't appear to be what you were arguing). Your point was that the Jays have a bunch of pitchers who could be good and some reasonably highly-rated pitching prospects, so you're against signing Wilson. You didn't say anything about why Wilson was not worth a 5-year gamble or why he wasn't the right pitcher, you've only said you'd sign him for two years, not five.

Maybe I'm misconstruing you, but I read that as saying the Jays may not have enough pitching depth for the next two years (but you personally believe they do), but that they certainly will in years three to five. And, again, I don't see any basis for that conclusion.

Magpie - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 09:36 PM EDT (#244669) #
The basis for my optimism is what they CAN do, not what they necessarily WILL do.

I think that if you look at it that way, you can talk yourself into believing just about anything. If you're a Kansas City Royals fan, you can talk yourself into believing they're going to win in 2012. Because, within certain limitations, anybody CAN do just about anything. Of course Jeff Francoeur CAN hit .290 and drive in 100 runs. He's actually done it in the major leagues, which pretty clearly indicates it's something he CAN do. So we're good to go...

Eric Thames and Travis Snider CAN hit 30 homers, Brandon Morrow CAN win 18 games and fan 250. Kyle Drabek CAN do this, Henderson Alvarez CAN do that. And so on. But just how likely is that they will do what they're capable of doing?
Magpie - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#244670) #
Winners play right to the very end - and die trying.

What sheer and utter nonsense. The stuff excreted from the hind end of a horse.

This isn't football, or hockey. Baseball's a game where you're much more likely to fail if you approach it that way.
Magpie - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#244671) #
In fact, today's game provided me yet another opportunity to say what I always say whenever I see a baseball player run into the wall trying to make a play.

I say this: "What the hell are you doing, you stupid sonuvabitch? There's another game tomorrow!"

And when it's my team's best player, I say it with extra vehemence...
Spifficus - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 09:51 PM EDT (#244672) #

I think you're missing my point... If that's how you treat that play (running them off the field, flying them home, etc), then there'd need to be roster contraction in September, not roster expansion. Players misjudge things all the time. Sometimes it results in them trying to get things they shouldn't, and getting in the way (see Cooper + JP's face, Rasmus in a few tangles with Bautista in the gap), and sometimes they don't go for something they should (Rasmus/Johnson). It's usually borne of the same lack of judgement, though the latter looks more like a lack of effort. You want to see a lack of effort? Watch a week of Rays games, and you're bound to see some efforts out of Upton that would make Rasmus blush. There are ways you deal with various incidents. In this case, Farrell sought out Rasmus as soon as he came back to the dugout. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume they were talking about that play.

Winners are better at baseball. It's not a morality play. A team of John MacDonalds would look gritty and full of heart and play the game the right way with all the character in the world... and lose an insane number of ballgames.

bball12 - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#244673) #
Magpie - you stated it as directly as anyone could.

Snider is the franchise:
Reality - he has stunk

Rasmus is the savior:
Reality - he has stunk and appears not even to give a sh**

Hill will bounce back
Reality: he stunk

Kelly Johnson is a big improvement over Hill
Reality - He stinks

We care about winning
Reality - Say hello to Corey Patterson - Juan Rivera - Mark Teahan and yes - Dewayne Wise
Thats right - say it again - Dewayne Wise - he of the .250 lifetime OBP

Arencibia is the future C
Reality - Marginal defensively - hits .220 and swings at everything he sees

Thames - he is the man
Reality - Every single play in LF is a complete adventure

Backup players
McCoy cant even get a bunt down and hits Mendoza line - McDonald was 95 years old - and Molina never plays

After awhile - Action talks and BS walks.





bball12 - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#244674) #
Magpie - excretions - from a horse? That was pretty funny.

How about another season of Palookaville.
That isnt an excretion - that is reality.

It begins with attitude and heart and drive - without that - you wind up - well - like the Jays - sitting comfortably in Palookville and thinking about tomorrow and talking about how great you are going to be - as opposed to how good you are now.

And please - excuse this latest equine excretion.








BlueJayWay - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#244675) #
That poster has already talked about wanting players to battle to the last second.  And stuff about integrity, and heart, and being a warrior.

I think he thinks this is a football forum or something.

bball12 - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 10:08 PM EDT (#244676) #
This poster understands what it takes to make a winner.
Doesnt make a difference if you are playing baseball or boxing - football or tiddlywinks.

Winners are warriors
Losers are those that accept mediocrity and explain it away and/or blame it on others.

This poster doesnt accept mediocrity - ever. Sorry.






BlueJayWay - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 10:09 PM EDT (#244677) #
Winners are better at baseball. It's not a morality play. A team of John MacDonalds would look gritty and full of heart and play the game the right way with all the character in the world... and lose an insane number of ballgames.

Thank you!  I think it's insane when people overlook the obvious, tangible things like talent and skill, and make sports into some kind of psychological battle of wills. 
BlueJayWay - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 10:15 PM EDT (#244678) #
And I have to say TamRa is nailing it pretty damn good in this thread. 

I don't think it's a case of saying so-and-so CAN do this, and it's like up at the very top of the projection, like 95th percentile.  It's like, reasonable projection of what the players can do, or have already have done.
Richard S.S. - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 10:16 PM EDT (#244679) #

Colby Rasmus (in an interview we all have read) is mailing it in.   He's up from his first year of Arbitration this offseason.  Either at this time, or in the season end meeting with A.A. he'll learn what's expected of him.   This Offseason, he grows up, or he learns what having 3 options means.

.

bball12 - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 10:22 PM EDT (#244680) #
Bluejayway

Talent and skill - without heart and passion and drive - is completely useless and guarantees you nothing more than a lifetime retirement home in Palookaville.

Play hard - every single second - or go home. In any sport - in any business - in anything.
I know you dont subscribe to that approach - but I do - and I will until the day I die.
So we can agree to disagree on this point.





Magpie - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 10:36 PM EDT (#244681) #
These guys all have talent, they all have drive. That's how they got where they are. They're all working much, much harder than anyone can possibly imagine. They do not show up at 6:30, slap on the uniform, and go out and play for a couple of hours. But even if you could give 110 percent all the time (it's mathematically impossible), it would almost surely be counter-productive. No one ever got a hit because he wanted it really badly. But lots and lots and lots of guys rolled over on a good pitch and grounded out to short because they were pressing too hard. That's just baseball. It's a hard game and it's a very long season. They will screw up and sometimes they even have trouble paying attention.

Everyone but Jeter, of course.
TamRa - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 10:37 PM EDT (#244682) #
I find it ludicrious that Rasmus has gone hard to the wall numerous times to make very-good-to-great plays, including one just a couple of days before that was described as astonishingly good in the remarks I've seen -and yet ONE fly ball drops in on an apparent miscommunication and he should have been fired on the spot.

How on earth did you ever get through the last 18 years and remain a fan?

Spifficus - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 10:40 PM EDT (#244683) #

Everyone but Jeter, of course.

Bah! I was hoping we could get through this without bringing him up. Ah well... hopefully it won't turn into a pontification on how he "plays the game the right way," unless that way is "as an insanely talented, Hall of Fame SS."

Spifficus - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 10:44 PM EDT (#244684) #

... Rasmus has gone hard to the wall numerous times to make very-good-to-great plays...

Thank you! Even with his miscue, the entirety of his defense has looked the best by a Jay since Wells' heyday.

John Northey - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 10:48 PM EDT (#244685) #
Why do I feel like bball12 is a lot like Billy Beane when it comes to watching games - chairs thrown, curse words, people running for cover...

The Jays for 2012 could contend with a lot of luck. The Rays had a batch of kids develop in the rotation between 2007 and 2008 which changed everything. If Alvarez and Morrow do what they could do, Romero continues on, Cecil has a solid season, and the 5's are decent then the Jays are strong contenders. Tons of ifs, but none that are crazy ifs. Mix in the depth charging up the minors and we could see a very, very good rotation as soon as 2012 but by 2014 for certain. Remember, we have Drabek and in AA Molina (2.21 ERA over 130 IP), McGuire (3.02 ERA over 125 IP), and Hutchison (2.53 ERA over 149 IP). Those are 4 top quality starting prospects who could reach the majors as soon as opening day 2012 (if the Jays push it) to go with Alvarez for the kiddie core. Not to mention bullpen guy Carreno (starter in the minors).

Realistically, the Jays are closer to Baltimore than the Yankees if you go just by record - 13 games ahead of Baltimore 17 or 18 behind the Yankees (depending on tonight's long game) - and still a good distance from the Rays/Red Sox (8 to 9 depending again). Two star level players replacing replacement level would do the trick (ala Fielder/Pujols plus Darvish/Sabithia) but that is a lot of cash to just reach the bottom level for a Wild Card when most years it has taken 95 wins to get it (thus a 3rd star level needed).

I think that is why Farrell was shooting for 88 wins - then a single star gets you to the 91/92 level and two gets you over 95 thus worth the cost. This team is getting closer but we need two pitchers to 'stick' along with Romero - ie: ERA+'s of 110+ over 200 IP - for this team to be there. 2012 will be the year the Jays could add mid-season if two of the non-Romero's become what we hope they become. Alvarez might be the Jimmy Key (kid who becomes an All-Star) to go with Romero/Stieb, Morrow the Jim Clancy, but we don't have the old vet Alexander type instead hoping a kid will grab that slot (such as Cecil or McGowan) and we'll get lucky ala those magical 1985 Jays.
Spifficus - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 10:50 PM EDT (#244686) #
Oh, and further to that, this is the same Rasmus that put himself on the DL by jamming his wrist twice in the same game going all-out for balls. If he were a true warrior, he would have put that wrist through the wall and/or turf. Slacker.
Magpie - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 10:56 PM EDT (#244687) #
the best by a Jay since Wells' heyday.

Wells? We're not exactly talking about the 1890s here, are we? Wasn't he still around, like, last year?

I'd want to point out, by the way, that none of Friday's screw-ups had anything to do with effort or hustle or desire. Mike McCoy made two fielding errors - well, Mike McCoy is not a major league shortstop. No one will, and no one should, hold it against McCoy that Yunel Eascobar is hurt and John McDonald is in Arizona. David Cooper made two bad plays, and both had more to do with inexperience than anything else. He lost track of a pop fly against the Trop roof. It was only the second game he'd played in that stadium and plenty of other guys have had trouble tracking balls against that roof. He then made a classic rookie mistake on the botched pickoff - he took the time and care to be sure he made a nice, accurate throw to the shortstop covering second. Which was too late to get the runner. An experienced corner infielder eventually learns that you always, always rush the throw. Finally, Johnson and Rasmus, who have played together in just a handful of games, got confused as to who was going to make a play. Very, very hard to watch, I agree, but none of it had anything to do with effort. Not in the slightest.
Spifficus - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 10:59 PM EDT (#244688) #

Wells? We're not exactly talking about the 1890s here, are we? Wasn't he still around, like, last year?

Heh. I was thinking his mid-20's, before hamstring issues started to sap his range

John Northey - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 11:03 PM EDT (#244689) #
Heh. It is funny how people try to make pro-sports all about heart and effort. Often I think most are frustrated former athletes who just didn't have enough talent and want to think that they could've made it if they just tried harder or got that one lucky chance. I tried my best in university and got to play in one game, striking out twice and misplaying a fly ball (no wonder the coach didn't let me play until a day only 8 others were there). I could have gone out and worked my tail off every day for 8+ hours and still would've sucked I suspect (for some reason a 50 MPH fastball just isn't useful from anywhere on the diamond).

Go to the park before a game and watch how hard these guys work - I was there on a Sunday morning having breakfast at the restaurant once a few years and saw tons of players, including Halladay (and a few scrubs and stars), out there bright and early working their tails off. I would bet very strongly that the guys who are torn apart for 'mailing it in' like Rasmus are doing the same thing.
QuasiGuru - Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 11:45 PM EDT (#244690) #
This poster understands what it takes to make a winner.

Yup, bring in Mastroianni. Couldn't resist.
92-93 - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 12:11 AM EDT (#244691) #
If you aren't happy with the numbers Kelly Johnson has put up since becoming a Jay you have very unreasonable expectations for your middle infielders.
Magpie - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 12:15 AM EDT (#244692) #
If you aren't happy with the numbers Kelly Johnson has put up since becoming a Jay

You mean middle infielders who hit .277/.371/.436 don't grow on trees? Knock me over with a feather.

He kind of sneaks up on you, doesn't he?
Magpie - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 12:18 AM EDT (#244693) #
Maybe I should apologize for my own filthy mood, but I've been working on the Blue Jays Report Card all weekend (it goes live in the morning.) I will assume that explains all. So... my apologies!
The_Game - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 12:37 AM EDT (#244694) #
The decision to bring in Scott Proctor in the 14th inning of a tie game is worse than anything the Jays did this weekend. Talk about waving the white flag.
hypobole - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 12:38 AM EDT (#244695) #
I'm a bit puzzled why the ball that dropped behind second base is being called a miscommunication. Rasmus was there, Rasmus is the CF. It's the CF's ball.  Johnson stood perfectly still so as not to interfere with the CF making the catch.
Magpie - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 12:56 AM EDT (#244696) #
a miscommunication

That's what Farrell called it. Johnson was actually under the ball, set to make the play. He moved away from the ball, because something made him think that that Rasmus was coming to get it.

So here's what I want to know. Where was A-Rod?
Magpie - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 01:10 AM EDT (#244697) #
Talk about waving the white flag.

I have two possible explanations. Tony Pena was actually managing the team, but let's assume that it was Girardi's decision.

1. He thinks Robertson and Ayala both need some rest before the post-season and he was not going to use either one. He'd already used six relief pitchers in the game, and Proctor is number nine on his depth chart.

2. He doesn't particularly mind Boston making the post-season, especially when he compares Boston's pitchers with Tampa Bay's.
The_Game - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 01:14 AM EDT (#244698) #
#1. They conceivably had Ayala, Noesi, Brackman, and Betances available at the very least. All would have been better choices than a guy who probably shouldn't be in professional baseball at all.

#2. I wouldn't want to face Boston in the playoffs. They may be in a slump right now, but they're still the same team that dominated baseball for 5 months. If I was the Yankees, I would have delivered the death blow when given the chance. As it stands, they're probably going to get in now.
uglyone - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 02:05 AM EDT (#244699) #
I wouldn't sat they dominated baseball for 5 months.

i'd say they dominated baseball for 2 months (jun/jul), were good for two months (may/aug), and plain bad for two months (apr/sep).
Anders - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 02:23 AM EDT (#244700) #
The decision to bring in Scott Proctor in the 14th inning of a tie game is worse than anything the Jays did this weekend. Talk about waving the white flag.

Really? The game didn't matter to the Yankees, they already won the first two (not strictly relevant) and put forward a reasonably proficient lineup, and Proctor was the 7th reliever into the game (8th on the day.)

TamRa - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 02:55 AM EDT (#244701) #
2. He doesn't particularly mind Boston making the post-season, especially when he compares Boston's pitchers with Tampa Bay's.

an excellent point.
grjas - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 05:30 AM EDT (#244704) #
Phew. No shortage of passion out there, which I guess is good thing for the team. Anyway to dispel the rumours that I and some of my fellow posters are the second coming of TS Elliott:

. This team is on the right track. The farm teams have been restocked. There are some young, potential high impact players. And they have a GM with guts and imagination. And finally they are spending big money on scouting again.
. Sport fans are beginning to talk about the team again for the first time in years, and with some ongoing success may actual start returning to the Dome, which isn't that bad a forum
. This team will be less frustrating next year when they drop the spare parts that have been used to fill in some of the cracks
. I agree 81-91 is a logical win rate for next year, and that is a good stepping stone, but very likely not enough in this division.

But the point of my original posting still remains the same: we are still a few years off and throwing big money after FA's. Thinking that will put us over the edge in the AL East is the same mistake the Leafs made for years.

Stay the course, give us at least 2 if not 3 years to really see what we have and then think about the big FA's.  Unfortunately, JB's stock may be winding down by then, but given the division we are in, that is the likely reality.



Thomas - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 07:05 AM EDT (#244710) #
None of which I can quite remember Morrow having done, so I don't quite see the parallel.

All very true, which is why I hope we're (or most of us) are moving on from the "Brandon Morrow is capable of being Justin Verlander" line of argument.

BlueJayWay - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 08:34 AM EDT (#244715) #
If you aren't happy with the numbers Kelly Johnson has put up since becoming a Jay you have very unreasonable expectations for your middle infielders.

Agreed totally.  If the Jays bring KJ back, I'd be very happy if he hits next year exactly as he's done since the trade this year.  It's a big improvement on Hill's last two seasons, obviously.

Another interesting thing someone said on another thread: KJ's career OPS is better than any season OPS for any Jays second baseman in their history, outside of four Alomar years and Hill's big year.
bball12 - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 10:31 AM EDT (#244720) #

What a silly and unfair thing to say  - the guy isnt even on the team.

You may want to train your eyes on the guys that are actually playing for the team - and not some minor leaguer that isnt even on the field.

Whats next? Are you going to make fun of Perales and Nanita too?

 

bball12 - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 10:32 AM EDT (#244721) #
Sorry guys - that response was intended for the QuasiGuru poster.
James W - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#244727) #
Mastroianni wasn't the person he was making fun of in that point.
bball12 - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 11:59 AM EDT (#244728) #

Thanks for the clarification - I guess he was making fun of me.

So be it - all part of participating I guess.

Regardless - I wouldnt change one word of how I feel about the approach to the game - in fact any game.

 

 

 

 

hypobole - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 01:59 PM EDT (#244743) #

Winners play right to the very end - and die trying.

bball - I can imagine you put the fear of God into your best ball partners at the company golf tournament.

bball12 - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#244745) #

No not at all - despite my best efforts - I truly stink at the game.

All heart - no skill - LOL

 

TamRa - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#244756) #
All very true, which is why I hope we're (or most of us) are moving on from the "Brandon Morrow is capable of being Justin Verlander" line of argument.

The difference is that Verlander had a much more standard development process, even though he spent a fairly short time in the minors. While Morrow's was bungled about as badly as it could have been.

Still, i mentioned Verlander only because he had a very underwhelming year three years ago - he's not really the best comp because he's so VERY good this year and very few pitchers will ever be THAT good for even one year.

You could point to doc's early struggles but that's an outlier to what usually happens.

In any case, my argument is based in the facts of Morrow's (lack of) proper development. We don't have, really, hardly any precedent for this sort of thing. To my mind, it's not unlike the situation with Loewen. all of us recognize that Loewen's development as a hitter is so very "non-standard" that you can't compare him to any other hitter his age and draw any conclusions.

likewise, I'd argue that assuming that the Morrow we saw the last two years (which is really not that much different year to year) is directly comperable to other 26 year old power pitchers. it's really not. He had less that 250 IP in his entire professional career coming into 2010.  20 year old Drew Hutchison who's just reached AA has 218.

I stand by the assertion that most jays fans are WILDLY underestimating the potential that Morrow has over the next 5 years or so. it's of course true of anyone who "hasn't done it yet" that they quite possibly never will. but if we assumed that as a given, why follow prospects at all?

Thomas - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 08:50 PM EDT (#244783) #
I stand by the assertion that most jays fans are WILDLY underestimating the potential that Morrow has over the next 5 years or so. it's of course true of anyone who "hasn't done it yet" that they quite possibly never will. but if we assumed that as a given, why follow prospects at all?

I don't agree with this. I don't think most of us are "WILDLY understimating" the potential Morrow has. I think we would characterize it as being highly unlikely that Morrow lives up to his full potential and not at all a sure thing he comes close to approaching it. I won't put words in your mouth, but I guess you may suggest that we "WILDLY underestimate" his likelihood of reaching it.

Even Bauxites skeptical that the Jays can expect anything more than Morrow to be league average seem to build him into the team's rotation plans for 2012. I haven't seen anyone suggest that, if healthy, he shouldn't be given 33 starts next year barring the wheels falling off.

Our disagreement (I'm using our to include those of us who have disagreed with your thoughts here, but I don't claim to speak for everyone else), to me, concerns a) the likelihood of Morrow reaching his potential, b) the likelihood of McGowan reaching his potential (and there may also be potentially disagreements over his actual ceiling and the likelihood of him remaining healthy over 200 innings), c) the relative strength, readiness and likelihood of reaching or approaching their potential of some of the Jays pitching prospects and d) the likelihood of any group of pitchers remaining healthy and effective over the course of a full season, which leads to our disagreements over whether signing CJ Wilson for two years (which isn't going to happen) is "largely unnecessary" or whether the team should even consider making him a 5-year contract offer (which may not be advisable for other reasons, but which you seem to be against solely based on the major and minor league pitching strength the Jays currently possess).

TamRa - Monday, September 26 2011 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#244789) #
I don't agree with this. I don't think most of us are "WILDLY understimating" the potential Morrow has. I think we would characterize it as being highly unlikely that Morrow lives up to his full potential and not at all a sure thing he comes close to approaching it. I won't put words in your mouth, but I guess you may suggest that we "WILDLY underestimate" his likelihood of reaching it.

Yes, that's what i meant. I think people are wildly underestimating Morrows potential to reach - if not his ceiling, at least something much closer to it.

I think folks are considerably underestimating McGowan's ceiling but I do agree the odds are really long against him holding together enough to reach it.

I think on physical talent, both pitchers have Cy Young contender ceilings. I think if you look at the top 10 ERA leaders for 2011, that both men have a ceiling that would put them in that group. Both have the stuff to lead the league in strikeouts.

McGowan? Even I would be quite surprised to see him start over 30 games in a season more than once (mildly surprised if he did it even once) and I would think that enough nagging injuries would keep him off his potential (sort of like Litsch's continual injuries keep him from consistantly putting together a year like those he started with.

But Morrow? I'd say the odds of him reaching something close to his ceiling are at least as good as say, Clay Buchholz had a couple of years ago, or Ian Kennedy, or Justin Masterson, or Gio Gnzalez - it's not THAT unusual for a really talented guy to take a few years to get up where he belongs. I think that he could certainly be as good as Wilson is this year.


Why should we assume these other guys did it but morrow almost certainly won't?

The equation is do you spend the 8 figure salary to get a guy who HAS done it and home he repeats, or go with the guy who CAN but hasn't and avoid the financial commitment.

I don't necessarily think there's a WRONG answer to that, but i know which answer I prefer. I will say that if Morrow and mcgowan were not theoretically a part of the 2012 rotation I'd see a lot - a LOT - bigger case for going after a Wilson because you still have a couple of years, at least, before more high ceiling guys put pressure on fro a spot.


And all that said, it's not like I'm against making an addition - I've said many times I'm fine with adding Darvish. Or some other excellent pitcher who's age better fits what we have going here. Signing a pitcher who's going to be 31 next year to what will surely be a 4 year deal is just not something I think is the best idea given our situation and plan.

The_Game - Tuesday, September 27 2011 @ 02:57 AM EDT (#244796) #
Really? The game didn't matter to the Yankees, they already won the first two (not strictly relevant) and put forward a reasonably proficient lineup, and Proctor was the 7th reliever into the game (8th on the day.)

Yes, really. They had about five other choices in their bullpen that would have been vastly superior to Scott Proctor in that game. You could have even left Laffey in...it's not like he was doing a poor job and they pulled him mid-inning.
bpoz - Tuesday, September 27 2011 @ 12:33 PM EDT (#244824) #
I just finished reading the debate with bball12 about playing hard. 2 days late.

Going with the concept of "warrior". How about a baseball warrior has to fight to be disciplined, control/teach yourself to lay off that pitch that always gets you, as an example. There is a lot of concentration & split second decision making involved in hitting. For pitching you have to concentrate and "hit your spots" to be successful. I read that Halladay was a very hard worker. There are 5-6 Jays that are going into the off season with possible confidence issues. They are going to need that warriors' heart and probably put in a lot of work to learn the adjustments to make if they can figure them out.
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