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With Henderson Alvarez being called up to start this week, here is a preview of what you will see on Friday.

POTD - Henderson Alvarez | 80 comments | Create New Account
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Mylegacy - Monday, August 08 2011 @ 10:18 PM EDT (#240474) #
Gerry or Marc

Tell us a bit about this guy's stuff. We hear he's got two + pitches including a near 100 mph heater with movement - how's his "third" pitch coming around? How good is his + "second" pitch.

I'm scared the kid will come up missing that 'third" pitch he'll need in the show and get hit around enough to make him think either he can't do it - or he has to try and throw even harder - instead of smarter.

So guys - fill me in - what do you two expect from the "phenom?"

Gerry - Monday, August 08 2011 @ 10:23 PM EDT (#240475) #
He is a ground ball pitcher, his fastball is not a straight mid-nineties pitch, it's a sinking mid-nineties pitch. He complements that with a change-up so look for lots of ground balls. The third, and less developed pitch, is his slider. How that pitch plays in the major leagues will define Alvarez's future.
Alex Obal - Monday, August 08 2011 @ 10:35 PM EDT (#240476) #
Are there any well-known examples of guys who overpowered hitters with a turbo-sinker and specifically the changeup as their swing-and-miss pitch? (Brandon League?) Seems like a weird combination.
scottt - Monday, August 08 2011 @ 11:08 PM EDT (#240478) #
Getting ahead with fastballs and mixing a changeup with 2 strikes seems like a basic strategy to me.

Does he have good arm motion on the change or does he rely more on movement?
Jonny German - Monday, August 08 2011 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#240479) #
BB-Ref lists him at 6'1, 195. He'll be the first first-name Henderson to play in the bigs.
China fan - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 04:31 AM EDT (#240480) #
This is a good first step towards my dream -- a Canadian-based team with everyone named Henderson, Cournoyer, Dryden, Esposito or similar.
Mike Green - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 08:38 AM EDT (#240481) #
Pete Orr would work.

Pedro started off throwing basically fastballs and changeups. 

China fan - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 08:51 AM EDT (#240482) #
Unfortunately there was nobody named Orr on that 1972 summit-series team.  He had a knee injury.
greenfrog - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 10:21 AM EDT (#240486) #
Law likes Alvarez a lot but says he has some effort in his delivery (unlike Pedro). So that might be another thing for him to work on.
bpoz - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 11:21 AM EDT (#240488) #
I remember an article about Marco Paddy signing Alvarez & Nestor Molina. Paddy wanted to know who had pitching skills. Alvarez came to try out as a position player, but eagerly tried pitching and impressed enough to be signed. Smart move on Alvarez's part, and Paddy's.
In addition to a great arm, I hope Alvarez is a smart pitcher who can battle. Pete Walker said that the slider was a work in progress. Alvarez will now get to watch the rest of the rotation succeed or not with more than 2 pitches.
Who benefits more Mills or Alvarez if one follows the other. They seem quite different.
Mick Doherty - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#240492) #

Note to Hockey Guyz -- Baseball's Hall of Names has done NHL and NBA Hall of Fame same-name-alikes. One from the NHL would be welcome!

And to Gerry -- great photos. But what makes this crop so outstanding, as good as the Alvarez delivery images are, is the dugout background scene. Nothing happening, SO much going on! Classic baseball.

ayjackson - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 01:59 PM EDT (#240493) #

Alvarez gets the start tomorrow!!

Giggity!

China fan - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#240495) #

With Alvarez now officially promoted and starting tomorrow, it's worth reviewing the track record of Jays pitching prospects who were promoted directly from AA to the majors, skipping AAA entirely.  It's still a somewhat unorthodox route, but a route that the Jays have often experimented with.  Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't.  Here are a few examples, but don't hesitate to add to this list with others that I've forgotten:

Jesse Litsch (2007) -- successful.

Kyle Drabek (2011) -- unsuccessful.

Zach Stewart (2011) -- mixed results, then traded.

Henderson Alvarez (2011) -- we will see.

John Northey - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 02:41 PM EDT (#240496) #
There is a school of thought that it is useful for a player to get a cup of coffee then be sent back down as it will build the hunger. Anyone have the time to check into a few Jays who have had this done?

Also, odds are Alvarez will stay up all season at this point rather than burn an option. Nice for him to get almost 2 months of ML service time and a real shot at the bigs in 2012 if he does well. It is audition for 2012 time for the kids at this point I'd think, while guys like EE try to show they are worth a contract for 2012.
Jonny German - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#240499) #
I think EE is a pretty easy "keep" for 2012. He's a nice safety net to have behind Lind, Lawrie, Snider, Thames. My one concern would be whether or not he can still catch the crazy hot streaks when not playing every day.

Keeping EE does necessitate turfing Teahen. I trust this won't be a problem.
TamRa - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#240500) #
I'm thinking that Alvarez will get at most 3 or 4 starts and then step aside for McGowan and Drabek (Mills to the pen) and then Alvarez will head to the AFL along with McGuire, d'Arnaud and others...
sam - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#240502) #
I have to take my hat off to AA. I think the first time in a while things are coming together. We have a core group of young, controllable, supremely talented position players on the team. There is talented, high ceiling pitching coming up, in addition to several very talented pitchers at the Major League level. He's put the club in a position to legitimating compete for premium free agents if he so chooses. We have an excellent farm system, so trading for established players is not beyond the question, nor something that may strip the club of its future.

Anyways, things are going in the right direction for the franchise. Kudos to AA and kudos to Rogers for backing him. I might have to go get myself a Rogers cellphone.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#240503) #
With Alvarez now officially promoted and starting tomorrow, it's worth reviewing the track record of Jays pitching prospects who were promoted directly from AA to the majors, skipping AAA entirely. It's still a somewhat unorthodox route, but a route that the Jays have often experimented with. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. Here are a few examples, but don't hesitate to add to this list with others that I've forgotten:

Total non-rehab AAA IP

  • C.C.Sabathia: 0.0
  • J.Verlander: 0.0
  • J.Beckett: 0.0
  • A.J.Burnett: 0.0
  • M.Buerhle: 0.0
  • C.Kershaw: 0.0
  • J.Jurrjens: 0.0
  • J.Litsch: 15.0
  • A.Ogando: 15.0
  • C.Hamels: 23.0
  • Z.Greinke: 28.0
  • T.Lincecum: 31.0
  • R.Oswalt: 31.0
  • M.Harrison: 42.1
  • R.Romero: 42.2
  • T.Hudson: 49.0
  • J.Chacin: 50.0
  • D.Price: 52.1


  • quick list. I'm sure I'm missing plenty.
    uglyone - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#240504) #
    while guys like EE try to show they are worth a contract for 2012.

    Career

    E.E. (28): 2890pa, .260/.335/.452/.787, 104ops+, .343woba, 106wrc+ Lind (28): 2375pa, .271/.322/.472/.794, 109ops+, .340woba, 108wrc+

    2011

    E.E.: 350pa, .277/.326/.446/.772, 109ops+, .340woba, 114wrc+ Lind: 383pa, .272/.321/.464/.785, 112ops+, .337woba, 112wrc+

    2010

    E.E.: 367pa, .244/.305/.482/.787, 109ops+, .339woba, 110wrc+ Lind: 613pa, .237/.287/.425/.712, 90ops+, .309woba, 89wrc+

    and most of us consider Lind to be on a bargain contract....and that's a contract considerably bigger than EE's 1yr/$3.5m option.
    92-93 - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#240506) #
    Encarnacion is also more valuable defensively than Lind because he can play 3B and he's a better base runner. Since May 29th :

    EE .308/.373/.541
    Lind .249/.309/.434

    Encarnacion and his 3.5m 2012 salary are absolutely a part of this team's future, whether it's by bringing him back or capitalizing on his value in trade.
    92-93 - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#240507) #
    Another important comparison in their career numbers where EE holds the advantage :

    Lind - 6.7 BB% 19.4 K%
    EE - 8.6 BB% 17.4 K%

    John Northey - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#240509) #
    Wow, didn't notice just how well EE has been doing lately (and conversely how poor Lind has been).

    So for 2012 we're looking at a 13 man lineup of...
    Starters
    CA: JPA
    1B: Lind
    2B: ?
    3B: Lawrie
    SS: Escobar
    LF: Thames
    CF: Rasmus
    RF: Bautista
    DH: Snider

    Backups
    CA: whoever (Molina probably)
    IF: McCoy or McDonald (if resigned)
    OF: Davis
    1B/3B/DH: Encarnacion or Teahen

    Meaning that all AA has to focus on this offseason is 2B, a backup catcher, and deciding who to keep between EE and Teahen. Plus, of course, the pitching staff.
    greenfrog - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#240510) #
    A few people have speculated that AA could end up bidding for Fielder. I'm torn about that one. I think Fielder is going to be overpaid as a FA. I can't see AA giving out a lengthy contract to a first baseman, especially one with his body type. Besides, I'm loathe to see Toronto regress to the JP philosophy of overpaying in order to "go for it." On the other hand, Fielder would look great in the lineup for the next few years. He would fit with AA's philosophy of slotting in elite players at as many positions as possible.

    More likely, AA gives Lind a chance to rebound and focuses on the areas John mentioned.
    uglyone - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#240511) #
    Is this something I could interest you in?

    1) SS Escobar
    2) CF Rasmus
    3) RF Bautista
    4) DH Fielder
    5) 3B Lawrie
    6) 1B Lind/Encarnacion (pure platoon)
    7) C Arencibia
    8) LF Snider/Thames (battle to the death for playing time)
    9) 2B Johnson

    PH) Encarnacion/Lind
    OF) Snider/Thames
    IF) McCoy
    C) Molina (not necessarily Jose, but one of the molinas).
    ayjackson - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#240512) #
    Lind and EE are essentially the same player (the first two months do count) this year.  Given we have Cooper and Loewen around, it might make sense to trade Lind this offseason and go with a platoon at first.
    92-93 - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#240513) #
    I have no interest in the Blue Jays giving up their 2012 first round pick to sign Kelly Johnson. That idea has to stop unless he falls to Type B.
    jester00 - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#240514) #

    I'd be interested in Cord Phelps from the Indians for second base.  Blocked by Kipinis/Chisenhall in Cleveland.  Young and controllable, good minor league numbers.  He could easily slot in at the bottom of that order.

     

    I'd also be willing to move a guy like Lind and platoon Cooper and EE at first.  Depending on what Lind's value was in the offseason of course.

    greenfrog - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 05:57 PM EDT (#240515) #
    Prince Fielder's Dad, Cecil (also a burly guy), had some great seasons, but peaked at ages 26 and 27 (969 and 860 OPS). He had a few respectable seasons after that (in the 820-840 OPS range), then fell off sharply after his age-32 season.

    Prince's age-26 and 27 seasons: 871 and 991 OPS. Something to think about. If I felt that he was far and away the best 1B option over the next few years (I don't know if this is the case), I might offer him 5 years/$100M, but I wouldn't get into six- or seven-year territory.
    China fan - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 06:25 PM EDT (#240516) #
    Of course the Lind vs EE comparison is skewed by Lind's wild oscillation in performance over the past three seasons.   You can't simply take their career numbers or their 2011 numbers and extrapolate anything from them.  Lind had a terrific 2009 season, a terrible 2010 and an up-and-down 2011.   As recently as July 4, he was sporting a gaudy .916 OPS, while EE was at .680.  Since then, Lind has slumped badly and EE has been hot, but I'm not sure if you should make any long-term decisions on the basis of five weeks of play.  The real question is who is Adam Lind?  Is he the Adam Lind of 2009 and the first three months of 2011?  Or is he the Adam Lind of 2010 and the past month of this year?  Those are wildly different creatures, and career stats don't help anyone to answer the question.  Frankly nobody knows which Lind we'll see in the future, but at some point Anthopoulos will have to make an assessment and decide whether to platoon him or not.
    Lylemcr - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 06:30 PM EDT (#240517) #

    This post is about Alvarez.  I am all about seeing what the kid has got.  What the hell. 

    BTW...Get over Fielder.  There is not way I would sign him.  It would be a contract we would regret.  I could see it now.  We would have another albatross contract that ties the Jays down as we have to trade away young players because we can't afford them anymore.  No thanks.

    If we were the Yankees and we had unlimited cash, maybe.  But we are not.  Did we not learn anything from Vernon Wells?

    I would like to see money spent on a closer and other bullpen arms.  A 2nd baseman would be nice.  But....  Bullpen, bullpen bullpen!  Other than that, develop that minor league system. 

    China fan - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#240519) #

    ....We would have another albatross contract that ties the Jays down as we have to trade away young players because we can't afford them anymore....

    Just out of curiosity:  who were the "young players" that the Jays had to trade away because they couldn't afford them anymore?  I can't think of any, unless you are referring to Halladay (not a young player, and traded because he wanted to leave, not because the Jays couldn't afford him).  Or are you referring to Alex Rios (who was released on the waiver wire and has a .579 OPS this season)?

    China fan - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#240520) #

    In other news:  let's hope that Snider's season was jinxed by his porn-star mustache, because -- in a dramatic attempt to find a fresh start -- he has apparently decided to shave it off.  From Twitter tonight:

    Lunchboxhero45 Travis Snider   Dear Mustache- It was fun while it lasted. Maybe someday we will meet again. Until then... -Lunchbox
    scottt - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#240521) #
    Skipping AAA?

    When Erik Bedard was an Orioles prospect, he pitched 1 lousy game in Ottawa. I was trying so hard to find something to get excited about back then and he is a local.
    uglyone - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 07:53 PM EDT (#240522) #
    Of course the Lind vs EE comparison is skewed by Lind's wild oscillation in performance over the past three seasons. You can't simply take their career numbers or their 2011 numbers and extrapolate anything from them. Lind had a terrific 2009 season, a terrible 2010 and an up-and-down 2011. As recently as July 4, he was sporting a gaudy .916 OPS, while EE was at .680. Since then, Lind has slumped badly and EE has been hot, but I'm not sure if you should make any long-term decisions on the basis of five weeks of play. The real question is who is Adam Lind? Is he the Adam Lind of 2009 and the first three months of 2011? Or is he the Adam Lind of 2010 and the past month of this year? Those are wildly different creatures, and career stats don't help anyone to answer the question. Frankly nobody knows which Lind we'll see in the future, but at some point Anthopoulos will have to make an assessment and decide whether to platoon him or not.

    meh, i see two good but very streak hitters. They've both had similar hot and cold streaks this season, and have ended up at a similar level up to this point this season. They've both had hot and cold seasons overall, leading to a similar overall level up to this point in their careers. I think it's an extremely good comparison, and I think we know enough now to know who the "real" Lind and EE are here at age 28 and approaching 3000pa - two streaky guys that can be awesome and awful with regularity, and overall are both solidly above average hitters.

    a platoon of these two would probably be ideal - Lind is an .853ops career hitter v. RHP, and EE is an .843ops career hitter v. LHP. And since they're both so streaky it wouldn't have to be a pure R/L platoon but you could ride the guy who is hot, too.
    electric carrot - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 08:29 PM EDT (#240523) #
    I agree with uglyone 100% on this one.  They're both just streaky inconsistent hitters to the max.  Platoon them and ride the hot bat.

     
    Chuck - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 09:12 PM EDT (#240524) #

    The real question is who is Adam Lind? 

    Interestingly, Lind's 2011 performance is virtually identical to his career numbers heading into 2011.

    pre-2011: 271/322/473/109+
    2011:        271/321/464/112+

    greenfrog - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#240526) #
    If EE stays hot through the rest of the season, I think AA will pick up his option. At 281/333/459, with some defensive versatility, he's a useful player to have on the roster. He might be figuring some things out (possibly under the influence of Bautista). You hate to let a player like that walk, especially when you have a $3.5M club option. Worst case, you exercise the option, then trade him during the season (a la Juan Rivera) if he regresses.

    You might be able to ride the hot player in fantasy baseball, but my impression is that it doesn't really work in the majors. Players generally need to play in order to get into a groove. Both Lind and EE would likely also be unhappy in a platoon situation. Especially EE, who would get to hit against lefties only.

    AA is going to have some decisions to make about 1B and DH in the off-season.
    John Northey - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 10:15 PM EDT (#240527) #
    As an old fan of Cecil's I'd love to see his kid play here but as others have said 6 years is a bridge too far.

    I still say if you are going to mortgage the farm go all out and sign Albert Pujols. In an off year he is hitting 283/349/538 for a 145 OPS+ (better than Lind's best over more than 100 PA). His next worst season is a 151 at age 22. That is just crazy. Yes, he will be entering his age 32 season but he is a top level defensive player at 1B who can play 3B in a pinch (7 games this year) and used to play LF as well. He'd cost around $30 mil a year for 5+ depending on what his goal is for salary ($200 mil net or $30 mil per year) but I'd risk it on a 32-36 year old Pujols over a 28-32 year old Prince Fielder (3 seasons with an OPS+ above Pujols' worst).
    Gerry - Tuesday, August 09 2011 @ 11:12 PM EDT (#240528) #
    I was curious why Dustin McGowan was able to stay in the minor leagues after his 30 day rehab assignment was done and I was also curious as to why he pitches just 3 innings at a time.

    So I e-mailed a contact in the front office and this is the response:

    1. Dustin had some forearm soreness so we backed him off his rehab. He's restarted another potential 30 day assignment.

    2. Our medical staff has outlined a program for Dustin to gradually increase his innings. He'll start at 4 innings for his rehab assignment in New Hampshire.


    Me again: I believe Dustin might have been on a 7 day DL assignment in the minors, he did not pitch from July 25th to August 5th, and that likely restarted his 30 day rehab.
    Magpie - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 02:23 AM EDT (#240529) #
    The real question is who is Adam Lind?

    I don't think it's well enough understood that even in 2010, for most of the season Lind hit like... well, Adam Lind. He had a slump, and it dragged on and on and on. It was enough to ruin his season numbers. But he came out of it. Observe:

    Split	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	TB	GDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB	ROE	BAbip	tOPS+	sOPS+
    April	24	103	 91	13	26	6	0	4	14	0	0	11	27	.286	.359	.484	.843	44	1	0	0	1	1	0	.361	139	128
    May	28	118	109	12	19	3	0	4	14	0	0	 7	24	.174	.220	.312	.532	34	2	0	0	2	0	0	.181	50	44
    June	25	 97	 90	4	14	2	1	1	 8	0	0	 6	28	.156	.216	.233	.450	21	2	1	0	0	0	1	.213	30	23
    July	24	 98	 91	9	25	4	1	5	11	0	0	 6	24	.275	.327	.505	.832	46	2	1	0	0	2	0	.323	133	124
    August	25	103	 97	10	27	8	1	5	15	0	0	 5	19	.278	.320	.536	.856	52	3	1	0	0	0	0	.301	138	133
    Sept	24	 94	 91	9	24	9	0	4	10	0	0	 3	22	.264	.287	.495	.782	45	0	0	0	0	0	0	.308	116	117
    I think the question going forward is can he minimize the damage next time he goes bad, or will he just flail away for two months.
    TamRa - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 04:34 AM EDT (#240531) #
    1. Dustin had some forearm soreness so we backed him off his rehab. He's restarted another potential 30 day assignment.

    i.e. a phantom injury which "happened" at the precise right time to bridge him into September.

    Not that I disapprove in ANY way.
    AWeb - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 08:00 AM EDT (#240532) #

    I think the question going forward is can he minimize the damage next time he goes bad, or will he just flail away for two months.

    That's basically where he is now, in another slump that threatens to last several months (July had an OPS of .580, August is at .385 so far), just flailing away. Lind does seem to average out to a reasonable level, but it's nothing great, and barely better than Encarnacion. Not going into slumps that last 1/3 the year is an important part of being a top player, and Lind seems to lack the ability to avoid them. His lack of walks is an important piece of this, but it's not very likely that he will suddenly develop this skill at this point. Although just taking 60 walks, instead of the 40 he's on pace for, would be a huge improvement.

    I was on the "what's wrong with Lind and Hill" bandwagon before Lind got hot. But since Lind has turned out to be essentially Lyle Overbay (Toronto OPS+ of 109), except not as good defensively and with a much lower OBP, that's pretty disappointing. Aside from guys who will cost big money, I don't see a better option for the Jays next year. 

    ayjackson - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 08:56 AM EDT (#240534) #
    Da Vid Coo Per (clap-clap--clap-clap-clap)
    bpoz - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 09:30 AM EDT (#240538) #
    Thanks for the info on McGowan Gerry.
    We don't give our crack medical staff enough credit for the great job they do. I feel that Dustin is in great hands and that improves the odds for his return. They foresaw this small blip weeks in advance. Here is hoping that he gets to Toronto next month.
    MatO - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 09:51 AM EDT (#240543) #

    Da Vid Coo Per (clap-clap--clap-clap-clap)

    Seconded.

    Jonny German - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 10:02 AM EDT (#240545) #
    I think the question going forward is can he minimize the damage next time he goes bad, or will he just flail away for two months.

    Another question on that line is "To what degree should the hitting coach be held responsible for not getting him back on track?".

    More and more I'm thinking that 92-93 may have a good point that Dwayne Murphy's large but solitary claim to fame is helping Jose Bautista become Jose Bautista. Besides Lind's extended slumps there's Aaron Hill's year and a half of stinkage without obvious explanation, and the idea that Snider needs to keep going back to AAA to have Mottola fix his swing.
    MatO - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#240547) #
    I think you can even question Murphy's role with Bautista if you wanted to.  His breakout came in September 2009 when Tenace was the hitting coach. 
    sam - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#240548) #
    Ya, I could see them re-evaluate that position at the end of the year.
    Magpie - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 10:59 AM EDT (#240555) #
    To what degree should the hitting coach be held responsible for not getting him back on track?

    I've sung this song often enough before, but - once more, with feeling. I think the staff needs someone else who can work with hitters, that it's best to have more than one coach who can deal with the thirteen hitters on the roster. It is a fairly big part of the game, after all, and Murphy's completely on his own now that Gaston and Tenace are long gone. This coaching staff is unbalanced. It's packed to the rafters with defensive specialists: three pitchers, a catcher, an infield specialist, and Lovullo (who has never actually coached before.)
    Jonny German - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 11:15 AM EDT (#240557) #
    Good point. What is Luvollo's area of expertise anyway? I believe he's in charge of the outfield, but it's Murphy who has 6 CF gold gloves on his resume.
    Magpie - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#240559) #
    What is Luvollo's area of expertise anyway?

    I also believe he works with the outfielders, not that he should be blamed for Corey Patterson. But it's weird anyway. Murphy was indeed a great outfielder and Lovullo was a utility infielder as a player, whose post-playing career has been spent almost entirely as a manager (he started out as a "roving coordinator," whatever that means.)
    China fan - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 11:38 AM EDT (#240561) #

    I'm not necessarily defending Murphy, but isn't it true that Farrell and Anthopoulos canvassed the Jays players in the off-season (after Farrell's appointment as manager) and they specifically said they wanted Murphy to be retained from Cito's staff?  If that's true, it does count for something -- it suggests that the players themselves believe that Murphy is helping them, even if it isn't proven by the numbers in some cases. 

    Secondly, as others have noted before, the Jays ability to score runs has not been a huge problem this season -- in fact the offence has been better than the pitching, relative to the rest of the league.  Again, that suggests Murphy isn't the main problem this year.

    Jonny German - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 12:11 PM EDT (#240568) #
    Again, that suggests Murphy isn't the main problem this year.

    It suggests the hitting isn't the main problem this year. It doesn't at all suggest that Murphy is getting the most out of the talent at his disposal.

    Based on their history it's reasonable to have expected more out of Hill, Lind, Davis, Rivera, and Snider this year. That's 5 of the opening day starting 9, with Arencibia, Bautista, and Encarnacion doing about what you'd expect and just Escobar looking like a guy who's regained form.
    Mylegacy - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 12:30 PM EDT (#240569) #
    Let me see if I got this straight...

    A GREAT hitter fails 70% of the time - we want a GREAT hitter who fails 70% of the time EVENLY - no times when he's hot and only fails 48.25% of the time and no times when he's cold and fails 82.654% of the time.

    WELL - why the f*ck don't we just tell the hitters that! NOW - there -problem solved. NEXT!

    The game - is - has been - and will be - PITCHING and DEFENSE. Good pitchers get good hitters out  - PERIOD. We got beat by Hardin - he shut us down(ish) enough to win. That is why guys like Alvarez, Hutchison, Molina, McGuire, McGowan, Carreno and the Kiddy Korp - just a bit behind those guys is SO important. AND - that is why Gose and Hech are SO vital.

    China fan - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 12:37 PM EDT (#240571) #

    Jonny, it's true that those 5 hitters have been disappointing this year.  But hitters do regress -- it happens all the time, on every team, and I don't think it's usually the fault of the hitting coach.  All 5 of those hitters have had better seasons in the past, but they've also had some terrible slumps and bad seasons in their past too -- so their poor performances this year aren't a total shock.  Rivera and Davis were pretty mediocre in 2010, when they weren't coached by Murphy, so their struggles this year weren't unexpected .  Hill and Lind have only really had one strong season in their major-league careers, so there was no logical reason to expect them to maintain those peaks forever.  Snider has never had a consistently strong season in the majors, and he's only 23, so his difficulties are unsurprising.

    Frankly we as fans tend to expect too much from some of these players.  Why should we expect a player to continue indefinitely at the same level as their peak season?  Or at the same level as they hit in the minors?   Regression is pretty common.

    zeppelinkm - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 01:07 PM EDT (#240580) #

    CF: Hill had 2633 PA's in the bigs with a .285/.337/.434 line before falling off a cliff in 2010. That's not regression, that's devolution.  Saying he had only 1 really good season is really slanting it to support your statement. He was a fine ball player and a good enough hitter for his position for close to 3000 PA's.

    China fan - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 01:11 PM EDT (#240583) #
    What, you're saying that Hill was a fine player until Murphy screwed him up?  Is that your explanation for his drastic collapse?  Murphy did it to him?
    zeppelinkm - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 01:21 PM EDT (#240586) #

    No I did not say that. Did you read that somewhere in my post? Please. Respond to the words that are written, not the ones you wished were.

     You said lots of players regress, that it's common. I'm saying Hill hasn't simply regressed, he's completely fallen off a cliff.   To me, I except the notion that maybe the hitting coach isn't getting as much out of some of his players, Hill in particular being one of them.

    zeppelinkm - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#240587) #
    Except that I meant to say accept. Blargh.  You said Hill has only had really one good season and then asked "Do you expect players to maintain their peaks forever" yada yada.   Hill hasn't regressed from his peak or anything of the such.  Regression from his peak would be welcome performance, methinks.
    Jonny German - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 01:33 PM EDT (#240591) #
    Jonny, it's true that those 5 hitters have been disappointing this year. But hitters do regress -- it happens all the time, on every team, and I don't think it's usually the fault of the hitting coach

    Sure. But when 5 of your starters regress and only 1 steps up, you start to wonder. And what about the Mottola factor? What's he doing with Snider that Murphy can't do?

    Why should we expect a player to continue indefinitely at the same level as their peak season?

    This is where you're getting silly and implying things I most definitely didn't say.
    China fan - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 01:34 PM EDT (#240593) #

    Zeppelinkm, I still don't understand your point.  Many players on many teams have deteriorated from their peak seasons.  Occasionally, like Aaron Hill, their numbers fall off a cliff.  It doesn't happen frequently -- and Hill is clearly an exception -- but it does happen, and not only on the Jays.  Regardless of whether a player declines gradually or falls off a cliff, how does this substantiate anything about the hitting coach?  What is the connection between "rate of decline" and "influence of the hitting coach"?  I don't see any logical connection.

    Or put it another way:  in the vast universe of players who decline from their peak seasons, some decline a little, some decline a lot, and some fall off a cliff.  It does happen, and Hill is not the only case.  How does this prove anything about the hitting coach?  Quite possibly, or even probably, it's because Hill managed to put together an exceptional season in 2009 because everything went right for him.  Since then, for a variety of reasons, he declined drastically from his peak.  It happens.

    BlueJayWay - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 01:40 PM EDT (#240596) #
    Sure. But when 5 of your starters regress and only 1 steps up, you start to wonder. And what about the Mottola factor? What's he doing with Snider that Murphy can't do?

    True that.  And Snider always seems to come up to the majors with a better swing after getting a tuneup from Mottola, and then after awhile in the big leagues he reverts to the one handed flail.  Don't know what's up with that.  And Lind had to go back to his old hitting coach in Indiana in the off season after last year's debacle, and while it worked for awhile, it seems he's falling apart again.  Don't know what's up with that either.


    China fan - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#240597) #

    Why should we expect a player to continue indefinitely at the same level as their peak season?

    This is where you're getting silly and implying things I most definitely didn't say.

    But I didn't imply that you said it.  It was a rhetorical question, and it was obviously me who said it, to help me make my point that regression is very very common.

    As for the 5 players you cited:  None of them were particularly good in 2010.  One of them (Lind) has actually improved significantly from last season (improving his OPS from .712 to .777 this year).  The others have continued to decline, but roughly at the pace by which they were already declining.  Two of them (Rivera and Davis) are at an age where declines would be expected anyway.  Another one, Snider, is only 23 years old and his struggles at that age are unsurprising.  Hill is the only one of the 5 players whose further decline this year is mysterious and difficult to explain -- but it does sometimes happen in baseball.

    As for Mottola -- there's no evidence that Snider was demoted because of a desire to get a better coach.  He was demoted to allow him to work on his hitting in a more favorable environment with less pressure on him.   (Or did he suddenly get 4 hits yesterday because Mottola instantly fixed him?)

    Jonny German - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 01:58 PM EDT (#240600) #
    Oy.
    John Northey - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 02:18 PM EDT (#240603) #
    While generally I don't see coaches as the be-all and end-all, it is possible that Mottola did talk to Snider as soon as he came down, asked 'are you back to doing xyz instead of abc?' and boom Snider is back.

    Of course, if that is all it took then I would indeed question the ability of our current hitting coach. I suspect the Jays will look closely at promoting Mottola to the majors in 2012 in part due to his being used to the kids who will be a big part of 2012 (Lawrie, Snider, Thames, possibly Cooper/Loewen/Mastroianni depending on needs/trades in 2012). It all depends on how their internal evaluations go.

    As to Hill, he is entering his age 30 season with 3 of his past 4 seasons having OPS+ under 85. Just 2 of his 7 seasons has he had an OPS+ above 92. His 2 big years look more and more like 'career years' that will never be duplicated (not unusual for a guy to have 2 of those rather than just one). He has a WAR of exactly 0.0 this year, thus he has become the definition of a replacement player. His defense is still good so he could move into the McDonald role next year if he can play SS still but at this point McCoy looks to be as good a bet to perform as Hill is.
    hypobole - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 02:24 PM EDT (#240604) #

    I think you can even question Murphy's role with Bautista if you wanted to.  His breakout came in September 2009 when Tenace was the hitting coach. 

    Except Bautista's swing change was Murphy's and had nothing to do with Tenace, by all accounts.

    92-93 - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 02:31 PM EDT (#240607) #
    By all accounts Bautista's swing change was BAUTISTA's. Tenace & Gaston were the coaches in place when his September binge started, and I've seen quotes attributing his success to Dwayne Murphy and even Vernon Wells as well. I don't think it's right to be giving the majority of the credit to anybody but Jose Bautista unless you were in that clubhouse and knew what was going on.
    Gerry - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#240644) #
    As I was watching the game I remembered I saw Alvarez pitch in 2009. Here is what I wrote for Da Box at that time:

    Henderson Alvarez is a slight pitcher, to me he looks to be a little short of six feet, probably around Pedro Martinez size. Alvarez has a nice compact delivery. Alvarez is only 19 years old and has been Lansing's best pitcher so far this season. Alvarez throws a 92-94 mph fastball (touched 95 a couple of times), a hard change-up at 84-87mph and a flattish curve-ball at 79-80. On Saturday he was a "thrower", he likes to work fast and would get the ball and be ready to pitch and fire it in there for the hitters to handle. The hitters handled him pretty well on Saturday but Alvarez is still not yet a "pitcher" and he left too many fastballs over the middle of the plate. As Alvarez gets a little older and more experienced you could see him averaging 93-95 mph with the fastball and if he can start living on the edges of the strike zone he could be very effective. If the Jays top 30 prospects were re-evaluated today Alvarez would be in the top half.

    greenfrog - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 07:35 PM EDT (#240646) #
    How does Alvarez look? I only have the radio feed at the moment...
    Gerry - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 08:38 PM EDT (#240651) #
    I had to head out but fastball is as advertised, 94-96 with a good break. Haven't seen many change-ups and Zaun just said he has seen 3 sliders. Per Zaun FB breaks down and in to righties and he really needs the slider to keep major league hitters from cheating down and in for the FB and change.
    greenfrog - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#240652) #
    Thanks for the scouting report! It does sound as though he will need a good slider to excel as a starter.
    TamRa - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 11:17 PM EDT (#240664) #
    If the Jays top 30 prospects were re-evaluated today Alvarez would be in the top half.

    Indeed.

    I have him in the top FIVE
    Gerry - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 11:35 PM EDT (#240667) #
    To be clear that's what I wrote in early 2009.
    smcs - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 11:43 PM EDT (#240669) #
    If Alvarez develops a cutter that he moves into lefties, he could be deadly. Part of Halladay's greatness is that he can throw multiple pitches around the same speed that break in different directions. The amount of movement on that fastball is incredible. If he can develop something that is of similar speed but moves in a different direction, that would be something to behold. The entire night, it seemed like Arencibia was begging him to get the ball down, too. The fastball-changeup combo is a great starting point, but he needs that third pitch.
    92-93 - Wednesday, August 10 2011 @ 11:56 PM EDT (#240670) #
    Alvarez sat at 95-97 in the first inning. If there's no room for him in the 2012 rotation (Romero-Morrow-Cecil-Drabek-McGowan/FA/tradee) and you have intentions of competing perhaps you consider having him break camp as a reliever. He's young enough that even if he were Neftali Feliz-ed in 2012 you could probably still switch him back to a starter should a spot open up. If there's one negative about his quick ascent to the bigs it's that he doesn't really have the opportunity here to hone his breaking ball; he barely threw it tonight. The same thing was said about Michael Pineda but in Pineda's case he was probably better off in that his 2nd pitch was the slider and it was the changeup that needed the work, not the reverse.
    hypobole - Thursday, August 11 2011 @ 12:13 AM EDT (#240671) #

    Certainly from this article, Murphy was the main instigator of Jose's swing change.

    As per Jose himself "It never was explained to me in the way these guys did it. It didn't make sense in my head when they'd say you're getting ready too late, I didn't know how to fix it. They didn't pinpoint and explain it to me in a way that I would understand it the way Cito and Murph did"

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2010/05/31/going_deep/

    Alex Obal - Thursday, August 11 2011 @ 12:27 AM EDT (#240674) #
    Is Alvarez a Jose Valverde fan? The way he loads during his delivery, and the goggles...
    zeppelinkm - Thursday, August 11 2011 @ 06:56 AM EDT (#240685) #
    Alex, they said during the broadcast that Alvarez's favorite player growing up was Felix Hernandez and that ha patterened the little turn in his delivery off Felix. Of course this is all despite the fact that Felix is only 4 years older then Alvarez. Alvarez was 15 when Felix broke through into the bigs.  They are also both from the same city. We can only hope....

    Alex Obal - Thursday, August 11 2011 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#240698) #
    Oh, now I see it... thanks.

    King Henderson has a bit of a ring to it.
    BlueJayWay - Thursday, August 11 2011 @ 10:59 AM EDT (#240701) #
    King Henderson has a bit of a ring to it.

    Henderson the rain king?
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