Tell us a bit about this guy's stuff. We hear he's got two + pitches including a near 100 mph heater with movement - how's his "third" pitch coming around? How good is his + "second" pitch.
I'm scared the kid will come up missing that 'third" pitch he'll need in the show and get hit around enough to make him think either he can't do it - or he has to try and throw even harder - instead of smarter.
So guys - fill me in - what do you two expect from the "phenom?"
Does he have good arm motion on the change or does he rely more on movement?
Pedro started off throwing basically fastballs and changeups.
In addition to a great arm, I hope Alvarez is a smart pitcher who can battle. Pete Walker said that the slider was a work in progress. Alvarez will now get to watch the rest of the rotation succeed or not with more than 2 pitches.
Who benefits more Mills or Alvarez if one follows the other. They seem quite different.
Note to Hockey Guyz -- Baseball's Hall of Names has done NHL and NBA Hall of Fame same-name-alikes. One from the NHL would be welcome!
And to Gerry -- great photos. But what makes this crop so outstanding, as good as the Alvarez delivery images are, is the dugout background scene. Nothing happening, SO much going on! Classic baseball.
With Alvarez now officially promoted and starting tomorrow, it's worth reviewing the track record of Jays pitching prospects who were promoted directly from AA to the majors, skipping AAA entirely. It's still a somewhat unorthodox route, but a route that the Jays have often experimented with. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. Here are a few examples, but don't hesitate to add to this list with others that I've forgotten:
Jesse Litsch (2007) -- successful.
Kyle Drabek (2011) -- unsuccessful.
Zach Stewart (2011) -- mixed results, then traded.
Henderson Alvarez (2011) -- we will see.
Also, odds are Alvarez will stay up all season at this point rather than burn an option. Nice for him to get almost 2 months of ML service time and a real shot at the bigs in 2012 if he does well. It is audition for 2012 time for the kids at this point I'd think, while guys like EE try to show they are worth a contract for 2012.
Keeping EE does necessitate turfing Teahen. I trust this won't be a problem.
Anyways, things are going in the right direction for the franchise. Kudos to AA and kudos to Rogers for backing him. I might have to go get myself a Rogers cellphone.
Total non-rehab AAA IP
quick list. I'm sure I'm missing plenty.
Career
E.E. (28): 2890pa, .260/.335/.452/.787, 104ops+, .343woba, 106wrc+ Lind (28): 2375pa, .271/.322/.472/.794, 109ops+, .340woba, 108wrc+
2011
E.E.: 350pa, .277/.326/.446/.772, 109ops+, .340woba, 114wrc+ Lind: 383pa, .272/.321/.464/.785, 112ops+, .337woba, 112wrc+
2010
E.E.: 367pa, .244/.305/.482/.787, 109ops+, .339woba, 110wrc+ Lind: 613pa, .237/.287/.425/.712, 90ops+, .309woba, 89wrc+
and most of us consider Lind to be on a bargain contract....and that's a contract considerably bigger than EE's 1yr/$3.5m option.
EE .308/.373/.541
Lind .249/.309/.434
Encarnacion and his 3.5m 2012 salary are absolutely a part of this team's future, whether it's by bringing him back or capitalizing on his value in trade.
Lind - 6.7 BB% 19.4 K%
EE - 8.6 BB% 17.4 K%
So for 2012 we're looking at a 13 man lineup of...
Starters
CA: JPA
1B: Lind
2B: ?
3B: Lawrie
SS: Escobar
LF: Thames
CF: Rasmus
RF: Bautista
DH: Snider
Backups
CA: whoever (Molina probably)
IF: McCoy or McDonald (if resigned)
OF: Davis
1B/3B/DH: Encarnacion or Teahen
Meaning that all AA has to focus on this offseason is 2B, a backup catcher, and deciding who to keep between EE and Teahen. Plus, of course, the pitching staff.
More likely, AA gives Lind a chance to rebound and focuses on the areas John mentioned.
1) SS Escobar
2) CF Rasmus
3) RF Bautista
4) DH Fielder
5) 3B Lawrie
6) 1B Lind/Encarnacion (pure platoon)
7) C Arencibia
8) LF Snider/Thames (battle to the death for playing time)
9) 2B Johnson
PH) Encarnacion/Lind
OF) Snider/Thames
IF) McCoy
C) Molina (not necessarily Jose, but one of the molinas).
I'd be interested in Cord Phelps from the Indians for second base. Blocked by Kipinis/Chisenhall in Cleveland. Young and controllable, good minor league numbers. He could easily slot in at the bottom of that order.
I'd also be willing to move a guy like Lind and platoon Cooper and EE at first. Depending on what Lind's value was in the offseason of course.
Prince's age-26 and 27 seasons: 871 and 991 OPS. Something to think about. If I felt that he was far and away the best 1B option over the next few years (I don't know if this is the case), I might offer him 5 years/$100M, but I wouldn't get into six- or seven-year territory.
This post is about Alvarez. I am all about seeing what the kid has got. What the hell.
BTW...Get over Fielder. There is not way I would sign him. It would be a contract we would regret. I could see it now. We would have another albatross contract that ties the Jays down as we have to trade away young players because we can't afford them anymore. No thanks.
If we were the Yankees and we had unlimited cash, maybe. But we are not. Did we not learn anything from Vernon Wells?
I would like to see money spent on a closer and other bullpen arms. A 2nd baseman would be nice. But.... Bullpen, bullpen bullpen! Other than that, develop that minor league system.
....We would have another albatross contract that ties the Jays down as we have to trade away young players because we can't afford them anymore....
Just out of curiosity: who were the "young players" that the Jays had to trade away because they couldn't afford them anymore? I can't think of any, unless you are referring to Halladay (not a young player, and traded because he wanted to leave, not because the Jays couldn't afford him). Or are you referring to Alex Rios (who was released on the waiver wire and has a .579 OPS this season)?
In other news: let's hope that Snider's season was jinxed by his porn-star mustache, because -- in a dramatic attempt to find a fresh start -- he has apparently decided to shave it off. From Twitter tonight:
Lunchboxhero45 Travis Snider Dear Mustache- It was fun while it lasted. Maybe someday we will meet again. Until then... -LunchboxWhen Erik Bedard was an Orioles prospect, he pitched 1 lousy game in Ottawa. I was trying so hard to find something to get excited about back then and he is a local.
meh, i see two good but very streak hitters. They've both had similar hot and cold streaks this season, and have ended up at a similar level up to this point this season. They've both had hot and cold seasons overall, leading to a similar overall level up to this point in their careers. I think it's an extremely good comparison, and I think we know enough now to know who the "real" Lind and EE are here at age 28 and approaching 3000pa - two streaky guys that can be awesome and awful with regularity, and overall are both solidly above average hitters.
a platoon of these two would probably be ideal - Lind is an .853ops career hitter v. RHP, and EE is an .843ops career hitter v. LHP. And since they're both so streaky it wouldn't have to be a pure R/L platoon but you could ride the guy who is hot, too.
The real question is who is Adam Lind?
Interestingly, Lind's 2011 performance is virtually identical to his career numbers heading into 2011.
pre-2011: 271/322/473/109+
2011: 271/321/464/112+
You might be able to ride the hot player in fantasy baseball, but my impression is that it doesn't really work in the majors. Players generally need to play in order to get into a groove. Both Lind and EE would likely also be unhappy in a platoon situation. Especially EE, who would get to hit against lefties only.
AA is going to have some decisions to make about 1B and DH in the off-season.
I still say if you are going to mortgage the farm go all out and sign Albert Pujols. In an off year he is hitting 283/349/538 for a 145 OPS+ (better than Lind's best over more than 100 PA). His next worst season is a 151 at age 22. That is just crazy. Yes, he will be entering his age 32 season but he is a top level defensive player at 1B who can play 3B in a pinch (7 games this year) and used to play LF as well. He'd cost around $30 mil a year for 5+ depending on what his goal is for salary ($200 mil net or $30 mil per year) but I'd risk it on a 32-36 year old Pujols over a 28-32 year old Prince Fielder (3 seasons with an OPS+ above Pujols' worst).
So I e-mailed a contact in the front office and this is the response:
1. Dustin had some forearm soreness so we backed him off his rehab. He's restarted another potential 30 day assignment.
2. Our medical staff has outlined a program for Dustin to gradually increase his innings. He'll start at 4 innings for his rehab assignment in New Hampshire.
Me again: I believe Dustin might have been on a 7 day DL assignment in the minors, he did not pitch from July 25th to August 5th, and that likely restarted his 30 day rehab.
I don't think it's well enough understood that even in 2010, for most of the season Lind hit like... well, Adam Lind. He had a slump, and it dragged on and on and on. It was enough to ruin his season numbers. But he came out of it. Observe:
Split G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB ROE BAbip tOPS+ sOPS+ April 24 103 91 13 26 6 0 4 14 0 0 11 27 .286 .359 .484 .843 44 1 0 0 1 1 0 .361 139 128 May 28 118 109 12 19 3 0 4 14 0 0 7 24 .174 .220 .312 .532 34 2 0 0 2 0 0 .181 50 44 June 25 97 90 4 14 2 1 1 8 0 0 6 28 .156 .216 .233 .450 21 2 1 0 0 0 1 .213 30 23 July 24 98 91 9 25 4 1 5 11 0 0 6 24 .275 .327 .505 .832 46 2 1 0 0 2 0 .323 133 124 August 25 103 97 10 27 8 1 5 15 0 0 5 19 .278 .320 .536 .856 52 3 1 0 0 0 0 .301 138 133 Sept 24 94 91 9 24 9 0 4 10 0 0 3 22 .264 .287 .495 .782 45 0 0 0 0 0 0 .308 116 117I think the question going forward is can he minimize the damage next time he goes bad, or will he just flail away for two months.
i.e. a phantom injury which "happened" at the precise right time to bridge him into September.
Not that I disapprove in ANY way.
I think the question going forward is can he minimize the damage next time he goes bad, or will he just flail away for two months.
That's basically where he is now, in another slump that threatens to last several months (July had an OPS of .580, August is at .385 so far), just flailing away. Lind does seem to average out to a reasonable level, but it's nothing great, and barely better than Encarnacion. Not going into slumps that last 1/3 the year is an important part of being a top player, and Lind seems to lack the ability to avoid them. His lack of walks is an important piece of this, but it's not very likely that he will suddenly develop this skill at this point. Although just taking 60 walks, instead of the 40 he's on pace for, would be a huge improvement.
I was on the "what's wrong with Lind and Hill" bandwagon before Lind got hot. But since Lind has turned out to be essentially Lyle Overbay (Toronto OPS+ of 109), except not as good defensively and with a much lower OBP, that's pretty disappointing. Aside from guys who will cost big money, I don't see a better option for the Jays next year.
We don't give our crack medical staff enough credit for the great job they do. I feel that Dustin is in great hands and that improves the odds for his return. They foresaw this small blip weeks in advance. Here is hoping that he gets to Toronto next month.
Da Vid Coo Per (clap-clap--clap-clap-clap)
Seconded.
Another question on that line is "To what degree should the hitting coach be held responsible for not getting him back on track?".
More and more I'm thinking that 92-93 may have a good point that Dwayne Murphy's large but solitary claim to fame is helping Jose Bautista become Jose Bautista. Besides Lind's extended slumps there's Aaron Hill's year and a half of stinkage without obvious explanation, and the idea that Snider needs to keep going back to AAA to have Mottola fix his swing.
I've sung this song often enough before, but - once more, with feeling. I think the staff needs someone else who can work with hitters, that it's best to have more than one coach who can deal with the thirteen hitters on the roster. It is a fairly big part of the game, after all, and Murphy's completely on his own now that Gaston and Tenace are long gone. This coaching staff is unbalanced. It's packed to the rafters with defensive specialists: three pitchers, a catcher, an infield specialist, and Lovullo (who has never actually coached before.)
I also believe he works with the outfielders, not that he should be blamed for Corey Patterson. But it's weird anyway. Murphy was indeed a great outfielder and Lovullo was a utility infielder as a player, whose post-playing career has been spent almost entirely as a manager (he started out as a "roving coordinator," whatever that means.)
I'm not necessarily defending Murphy, but isn't it true that Farrell and Anthopoulos canvassed the Jays players in the off-season (after Farrell's appointment as manager) and they specifically said they wanted Murphy to be retained from Cito's staff? If that's true, it does count for something -- it suggests that the players themselves believe that Murphy is helping them, even if it isn't proven by the numbers in some cases.
Secondly, as others have noted before, the Jays ability to score runs has not been a huge problem this season -- in fact the offence has been better than the pitching, relative to the rest of the league. Again, that suggests Murphy isn't the main problem this year.
It suggests the hitting isn't the main problem this year. It doesn't at all suggest that Murphy is getting the most out of the talent at his disposal.
Based on their history it's reasonable to have expected more out of Hill, Lind, Davis, Rivera, and Snider this year. That's 5 of the opening day starting 9, with Arencibia, Bautista, and Encarnacion doing about what you'd expect and just Escobar looking like a guy who's regained form.
A GREAT hitter fails 70% of the time - we want a GREAT hitter who fails 70% of the time EVENLY - no times when he's hot and only fails 48.25% of the time and no times when he's cold and fails 82.654% of the time.
WELL - why the f*ck don't we just tell the hitters that! NOW - there -problem solved. NEXT!
The game - is - has been - and will be - PITCHING and DEFENSE. Good pitchers get good hitters out - PERIOD. We got beat by Hardin - he shut us down(ish) enough to win. That is why guys like Alvarez, Hutchison, Molina, McGuire, McGowan, Carreno and the Kiddy Korp - just a bit behind those guys is SO important. AND - that is why Gose and Hech are SO vital.
Jonny, it's true that those 5 hitters have been disappointing this year. But hitters do regress -- it happens all the time, on every team, and I don't think it's usually the fault of the hitting coach. All 5 of those hitters have had better seasons in the past, but they've also had some terrible slumps and bad seasons in their past too -- so their poor performances this year aren't a total shock. Rivera and Davis were pretty mediocre in 2010, when they weren't coached by Murphy, so their struggles this year weren't unexpected . Hill and Lind have only really had one strong season in their major-league careers, so there was no logical reason to expect them to maintain those peaks forever. Snider has never had a consistently strong season in the majors, and he's only 23, so his difficulties are unsurprising.
Frankly we as fans tend to expect too much from some of these players. Why should we expect a player to continue indefinitely at the same level as their peak season? Or at the same level as they hit in the minors? Regression is pretty common.
CF: Hill had 2633 PA's in the bigs with a .285/.337/.434 line before falling off a cliff in 2010. That's not regression, that's devolution. Saying he had only 1 really good season is really slanting it to support your statement. He was a fine ball player and a good enough hitter for his position for close to 3000 PA's.
No I did not say that. Did you read that somewhere in my post? Please. Respond to the words that are written, not the ones you wished were.
You said lots of players regress, that it's common. I'm saying Hill hasn't simply regressed, he's completely fallen off a cliff. To me, I except the notion that maybe the hitting coach isn't getting as much out of some of his players, Hill in particular being one of them.
Sure. But when 5 of your starters regress and only 1 steps up, you start to wonder. And what about the Mottola factor? What's he doing with Snider that Murphy can't do?
Why should we expect a player to continue indefinitely at the same level as their peak season?
This is where you're getting silly and implying things I most definitely didn't say.
Zeppelinkm, I still don't understand your point. Many players on many teams have deteriorated from their peak seasons. Occasionally, like Aaron Hill, their numbers fall off a cliff. It doesn't happen frequently -- and Hill is clearly an exception -- but it does happen, and not only on the Jays. Regardless of whether a player declines gradually or falls off a cliff, how does this substantiate anything about the hitting coach? What is the connection between "rate of decline" and "influence of the hitting coach"? I don't see any logical connection.
Or put it another way: in the vast universe of players who decline from their peak seasons, some decline a little, some decline a lot, and some fall off a cliff. It does happen, and Hill is not the only case. How does this prove anything about the hitting coach? Quite possibly, or even probably, it's because Hill managed to put together an exceptional season in 2009 because everything went right for him. Since then, for a variety of reasons, he declined drastically from his peak. It happens.
True that. And Snider always seems to come up to the majors with a better swing after getting a tuneup from Mottola, and then after awhile in the big leagues he reverts to the one handed flail. Don't know what's up with that. And Lind had to go back to his old hitting coach in Indiana in the off season after last year's debacle, and while it worked for awhile, it seems he's falling apart again. Don't know what's up with that either.
Why should we expect a player to continue indefinitely at the same level as their peak season?
This is where you're getting silly and implying things I most definitely didn't say.
But I didn't imply that you said it. It was a rhetorical question, and it was obviously me who said it, to help me make my point that regression is very very common.
As for the 5 players you cited: None of them were particularly good in 2010. One of them (Lind) has actually improved significantly from last season (improving his OPS from .712 to .777 this year). The others have continued to decline, but roughly at the pace by which they were already declining. Two of them (Rivera and Davis) are at an age where declines would be expected anyway. Another one, Snider, is only 23 years old and his struggles at that age are unsurprising. Hill is the only one of the 5 players whose further decline this year is mysterious and difficult to explain -- but it does sometimes happen in baseball.
As for Mottola -- there's no evidence that Snider was demoted because of a desire to get a better coach. He was demoted to allow him to work on his hitting in a more favorable environment with less pressure on him. (Or did he suddenly get 4 hits yesterday because Mottola instantly fixed him?)
Of course, if that is all it took then I would indeed question the ability of our current hitting coach. I suspect the Jays will look closely at promoting Mottola to the majors in 2012 in part due to his being used to the kids who will be a big part of 2012 (Lawrie, Snider, Thames, possibly Cooper/Loewen/Mastroianni depending on needs/trades in 2012). It all depends on how their internal evaluations go.
As to Hill, he is entering his age 30 season with 3 of his past 4 seasons having OPS+ under 85. Just 2 of his 7 seasons has he had an OPS+ above 92. His 2 big years look more and more like 'career years' that will never be duplicated (not unusual for a guy to have 2 of those rather than just one). He has a WAR of exactly 0.0 this year, thus he has become the definition of a replacement player. His defense is still good so he could move into the McDonald role next year if he can play SS still but at this point McCoy looks to be as good a bet to perform as Hill is.
I think you can even question Murphy's role with Bautista if you wanted to. His breakout came in September 2009 when Tenace was the hitting coach.
Except Bautista's swing change was Murphy's and had nothing to do with Tenace, by all accounts.
Henderson Alvarez is a slight pitcher, to me he looks to be a little short of six feet, probably around Pedro Martinez size. Alvarez has a nice compact delivery. Alvarez is only 19 years old and has been Lansing's best pitcher so far this season. Alvarez throws a 92-94 mph fastball (touched 95 a couple of times), a hard change-up at 84-87mph and a flattish curve-ball at 79-80. On Saturday he was a "thrower", he likes to work fast and would get the ball and be ready to pitch and fire it in there for the hitters to handle. The hitters handled him pretty well on Saturday but Alvarez is still not yet a "pitcher" and he left too many fastballs over the middle of the plate. As Alvarez gets a little older and more experienced you could see him averaging 93-95 mph with the fastball and if he can start living on the edges of the strike zone he could be very effective. If the Jays top 30 prospects were re-evaluated today Alvarez would be in the top half.
Indeed.
I have him in the top FIVE
Certainly from this article, Murphy was the main instigator of Jose's swing change.
As per Jose himself "It never was explained to me in the way these guys did it. It didn't make sense in my head when they'd say you're getting ready too late, I didn't know how to fix it. They didn't pinpoint and explain it to me in a way that I would understand it the way Cito and Murph did"
King Henderson has a bit of a ring to it.
Henderson the rain king?