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Breaking News The Trade: Blue Jays Get Rasmus
The Blue Jays have posted a press release via the Twitter:

The TORONTO BLUE JAYS have acquired OF COLBY RASMUS, LHP TREVER MILLER, LHP BRIAN TALLET, and RHP P.J. WALTERS from the St. Louis Cardinals. ..in exchange the @bluejays send RHP EDWIN JACKSON, RHP OCTAVIO DOTEL, LHP MARC RZEPCZYNSKI, OF COREY PATTERSON …and three players to be named later or cash considerations to the St. Louis Cardinals.

Are we happy?

(New thread for y'all....)

This was set up by an earlier deal with the White Sox which sent long-time RP Jason Frasor and prospect Zach Stewart to Chicago in exchange for Jackson and Mark Teahen. There are reports saying that Trever Miller will also be going to Chicago to complete that part of the transaction.

And that Brad Mills is on his way to Toronto...

How does this affect the roster?

The bullpen loses Frasor, Rzepczynski, Dotel and adds Walters, Tallet (currently on the DL, eligible to be activated immediately) and maybe Miller.

The outfield exchanges Patterson for Rasmus. Pretty cool.

And Mark Teahen comes aboard, presumably instead of either Miller (if he's going to Chicago) or Tallet (if Miller stays here, and the Long Fellow stays on the DL.)
Posted by Magpie on Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 02:39 PM EDT.
The Trade: Blue Jays Get Rasmus | 194 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Subversive - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#239486) #

Very exciting!

 

Supposing Rasmus is able to settle in somewhere between last year and this years level, how does this affect "the grand plan"? Are we a contender in 2012?

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Denoit - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 02:52 PM EDT (#239487) #
I dont think the expectations are somewhere between last year and this year. I think they are get back to 2010 form and improve going forward. This is a player that could hit in the middle of your lineup, a true 5 tool guy.
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mathesond - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#239488) #
3 PTBNLs? That certainly sounds unusual, wonder what the record is
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Malcolm Little - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#239490) #

I might be buying a jersey before sundown. Will he be keeping his number?

 

Great trade.....or GREATEST TRADE EVER?!?!?!

 

Rationally speaking, I vote for the later.

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Alex Obal - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#239498) #
In the outfield, Patterson's mastery of the Frightened Squirrel method was truly something to behold. He will be missed.

Any word on what tonight's lineup will look like?
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 03:12 PM EDT (#239501) #
Upon further reflection, there seems little chance that Walters will join the major league team. Let's assume that will be Mills instead. And there's nothing official (yet) on Miller heading to Chicago...

Both St. Louis and Chicago are playing at home. I'd be a little surprised if anyone made it to the ball park by game time.
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greenfrog - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#239504) #
From the St Louis Post-Dispatch:

'Blowback following La Russa's comments to a St. Louis television station Tuesday night further forced Mozeliak's hand as he concluded the relationship between player and manager could not be salvaged within what had become a toxic environment for Rasmus.

'Rasmus has declined to speak to media since the club returned from its nine-game road trip Sunday but, according to a family member, was "extremely" pleased by the move.'

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/cardinal-beat/article_0f7b1b4c-b86e-11e0-86d2-0019bb30f31a.html
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Mike Green - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#239505) #
Frightened Squirrel method

World Series, 2012 in an alternate universe, courtesy of Retrosheet. 

Game 7, bottom of 9th inning, Blue Jays ahead 4-3
Patterson in for Thames playing left-field
Matt Holliday hits an inside-the-park home run on a soft fly ball to left-field (Patterson hides ball behind tarp)
...
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PeteMoss - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#239506) #
Tallet is on the DL right now.

So you lose Frasor, Dotel, Rzep
And add Mills, Miller, Walters (and I assume one of them will disappear and Perez will return when eligible)
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Ryan Day - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#239507) #
Walters must still have options, so he could be sent to AAA.
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#239508) #
Need a spot for Teahen, at least for now. If Walters has options, use one. If he doesn't - well, who cares anyway?
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Ryan Day - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#239513) #
This is a player that could hit in the middle of your lineup, a true 5 tool guy.

He's a career .259 hitter who's stolen all of 20 bases in 385 games. His defence is the subject of some debate as well, at least in centre field.

He's still a good player (at least!) and a significant upgrade for the Jays, but "5 tool" is overstating it.
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TamRa - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#239515) #
That was my question about Walters (options) - you can say "who cares?" but it seems unnecessary to acquire such a low cost guy just to lose him immediately to waivers. That would seem to suggest he does have an option.
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Moe - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#239516) #
While I like the final of both deals (assuming the 3 PTBNL are of the usual kind) I find the the price for Edwin Jackson rather high.  The Jays give up a solid reliever, money (Teahen's salary) and a nice but not great prospect for 2 month of Edwin Jackson?  This strikes me as not cheap (not excessive but definitely not cheap). 

Of course, what was sent to STL looks very cheap which makes the deals overall look so good.. Makes me wonder/worry about the 3 PTBNL.


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robertdudek - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#239517) #
Jays got a potential all-star centerfielder who is still relatively cheap for a bunch of spare parts. If ever there were a trade with no downside, this is it. HUZZAH!
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sam - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#239519) #
I second the HUZZAH!
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Matthew E - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#239520) #
I like the trade, but Zach Stewart may turn out to be more than a spare part.
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Mike Green - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#239521) #
I definitely see the downside.  Rasmus plays below average defence in centerfield and continues to hit as he has in 2011.  The Cards make Stewart an ace reliever and Rzepczynski a starter, and they both flourish.  I still think that the trade was worth making. 
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James W - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#239522) #
Chicago has Stewart, not the Cards.
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Ryan Day - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#239523) #
Or Rasmus could continue squabble with his coaches while his father publicly takes shots at the organization. That would also be bad.

That said, there aren't a lot of sure-thing, no-baggage all-star centre fielders out there, so Rasmus is certainly worth taking a chance on. Ideally, he can be adequate or better for two years until Gose is ready to take over.

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katman - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#239524) #
Despite Rasmus' performance to date, he is still a "5-tool" guy. Whether or not he has "a tool" performance, is another question; in St. Louis, it seems he did. AA scouts this stuff carefully, though, so I reckon they believe that he'll work in Toronto's environment.

I think St. Louis sees a future starter in Zep, which would help equalize the trade somewhat: 2 starters for a promising but underachieving center fielder. PTBNL are usually not major prospects, so the 3 should be OK, but if that doesn't hold true, this deal could get very expensive.

Our biullpen needs to see Mills, ands give Perez more reps, over any of the arms coming in. So I hope Miller is sent on to Chicago. As for Tallet (my family nicknamed him "Oh No!", as opposed to Gregg, who was "Oh Dear"), if he's injured I guess he gets to retire in a Jays uniform. Which is fine by me - a class move by the Jays that costs nothing, and will be noticed positively around the league.
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Matthew E - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#239525) #
if he's injured I guess he gets to retire in a Jays uniform

Presumably, there would also be a Jays cap on his Cooperstown plaque, if and when things get to that point.
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92-93 - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#239526) #
There certainly would be less downside if we knew Rzepczysnki couldn't handle starting in the AL East, but no, it was important to give JoJo 20 starts.

I'm with robertdudek - this is a no-brainer trade for the Jays, no matter what the players involved turn into.
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Alex Obal - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#239527) #
In case you missed it or haven't enjoyed a good GM excoriation in awhile (because, hey, we haven't had much reason to recently) Hodgie mentioned the Viva El Birdos thread in our other thread. It is... relentless.

I look forward to seeing Rzepczynski and Stewart both become passable-or-better starters for the next 5 years while Rasmus is above-average and makes a couple of all-star teams. Sadly, when Rzepczynski and Stewart combine to out-WAR Rasmus by 0.1 Fangraphs WAR, the trade will justifiably be deemed a failure.
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Kelekin - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#239528) #
It would've been amazing if we could've pulled off this deal without sending Stewart, too.  It's okay that it did happen, but put me in a boat that would've rathered see us ship off someone like Sierra.  Yes, I know he is the Battersbox love-child, but I said it. ;)
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TamRa - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:24 PM EDT (#239529) #
news conference ongoing - Miller is not going to the Sox (right now at least)

No one pinned hm down on Walters but he didn't mention him in his comment about how the moving parts fit.

I suspect he's going to Vegas.

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Jonny German - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#239530) #
AA says none of the new guys are expected to arrive in time for tonight's game, so I presume the lineup will be thus:


6 Escobar
9 Thames
5 Bautista
3 Lind
0 Encarnacion
7 Snider
2 Arencibia
4 Hill
8 Davis

With a bench of just Molina and McDonald.

Bullpen will be Francisco, Rauch, Janssen, Camp, Ledezma. Plus Mills if that rumour was correct.
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robertdudek - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:31 PM EDT (#239531) #
I definitely see the downside.  Rasmus plays below average defence in centerfield and continues to hit as he has in 2011.  The Cards make Stewart an ace reliever and Rzepczynski a starter, and they both flourish.  I still think that the trade was worth making. 


The bolded is not a downside, since this would not have happened to them with the Jays.

As far as Rasmus possibly underperforming, that is merely no value, not a downside.
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Flex - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#239532) #
Most surprising thing for me about this trade? That Trever Miller is still playing baseball.

And he still doesn't know how to spell Trevor.
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#239533) #
As far as Rasmus possibly underperforming, that is merely no value, not a downside.

How about if he turns into the next Corey Patterson? Youneverknow.

But personally, I think he's the new Lloyd Moseby, and that's a helluva thing to get in exchange for relief pitchers.
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PeteMoss - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#239534) #
Who's the next grumpy old manager to run a guy out of town that the Jays can steal?

Cox - Escobar
La Russa - Rasmus

Too bad Leyland seems pretty mellow... can't see him running Cabrera or Verlander out of town.
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Mike Green - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#239535) #
I guess that depends on how you evaluate trades.  It doesn't matter really in this case though, because it is pretty clear that (at minimum) the talent exchanged is of equal value, and the re-arrangement of talent is highly desirable from the Jay perspective.  It is pretty impressive that the club is in July, 2011 and looking ahead to 2012, the main issues (subject to injury) are who plays second base and who will get the high leverage relief work. 
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#239536) #
Kudos to Johnny German for nailing tonight's lineup (OK, Arencibia hits 9th, move up Davis and Hill.)

Then again, how hard was that?
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#239537) #
In case you missed it or haven't enjoyed a good GM excoriation in awhile (because, hey, we haven't had much reason to recently) Hodgie mentioned the Viva El Birdos thread in our other thread. It is... relentless.

That is one epic thread. It's hard to tell what has Cardinals fans most upset: trading Colby Rasmus, or obtaining Corey Patterson.
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hypobole - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#239538) #
Although a number of us believe Rzep should have remained a starter, KLaw certainly seems to agree with the Blue Jays decision to convert him to the pen:
"Mark Rzepczynski, another sinker-slider guy with terrible arm action who profiles as a reliever because he probably won't have the command or health to start."
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Mike Green - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#239539) #
Birders will tell you that cardinals and frightened squirrels do not mix. 

Can someone please enlighten me what the meaning of the inclusion of Corey Patterson in the deal is?  It is a puzzling philosophical issue.  I suspect that it simply may be a matter of linguistics- with the trade of Rasmus, the Cardinals needed another "outfielder". 
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#239540) #
Who's the next grumpy old manager to run a guy out of town that the Jays can steal?

Jack McKeon is definitely old.

Davey Johnson can be pretty grumpy.
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Mylegacy - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#239541) #
Being retired has it's advantages! I've been reading everything - on every website for HOURS about this trade.

FIRST: I'm a HUGE FAN of this move! SECOND: Even IF Rasmus becomes like Rios - only worse - I'm still a HUGE FAN of this attempt by AA.

What I've learned leads me to believe that MUCH of the criticism of Rasmus IS DESERVED. SO - this is where I have to - AND DO - trust AA and his team of evaluators that Rasmus' on and off field problems are not too great and his upside can truly be reached.

Many Card's fans see Rasmus as a "serious head case," who has a "daddy fixation," "doesn't always get good reads on balls hit his way,"  "won't or can't follow instructions," is "untrainable," and "...has cost the team at least 3 games - this year alone - because of his fear of the wall."  Add that to a lifetime 250ish average and very little production for his perceived physical gifts and you can see the Mr Hyde side of Dr Jekyll.

As a FAN - so often I fixate on "results," - what have you done for me today. A guy comes up hits two homers in his first game, is a catcher - and I think - hey - we've got ourselves a hall of famer. However, in the real world - power hitters usually don't "arrive" until they're at least 25. In the real world - even gifted guys like Snider and Rasmus don't put it all together in the first few years. In the real world the great GM's are those that can see Rios and see I guy they should just give away and see Rasmus and see a guy who has a high probability shot at being a "star," AND BE CORRECT.

I support AA on this "risk." However, I strongly suspect Rasmus is a MUCH BIGGER RISK than Escobar or Lawrie and - with I think - maybe a "potential" bigger reward. In the ALEast trying to aim for "good" players is aiming a rung too low. AA - NEVER aims too low!

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Subversive - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#239542) #
Based on that thread, I actually think it's the Patterson thing. Hilarious.
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spud77 - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#239543) #
A young controllable player in a premium position with superstar potential and star likelihood like Rasmus doesn't come along very often. We gave up some good bullpen arms, but considering most folks looking at this trade possibility in advance were thinking that the starting point would be Morrow and Gose, we did very well.
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Hodgie - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#239545) #
What I found the most amusing about the VEB thread was the anticipation of the impending doom by some of the posters. Once the news of the Toronto-Chicago trade broke, one poster made the following comment:

Alex Anthopolous is assembling pieces for the express purpose of screwing us...

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Ron - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 05:47 PM EDT (#239546) #
Goldstein has been flooded with tweets from Jays fans about how good AA is and he tweeted this: "If we are at the point where winning isn't important in judging GMs, something has gone horribly wrong. Sorry." and "Look, I think Alex has done a great job so far, but let's wait for the results before we anoint him."

I like what AA has done so far but under his regime, the Jays have stopped playing meaningful baseball before August. I think it's reasonable to expect the Jays to be competitive next season (i.e. playing meaningful games in September). Even with the Rasmus trade, I want to see the Jays go after Fielder (Lind could be traded for pitching) in the off-season.
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Lylemcr - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 05:49 PM EDT (#239547) #

I don't see Stewart, Rzep or Frasor as cornerstones to winning the big prize. They could be a piece of the pie, but not the cornerstone. Rasmus has the potential to be a cornerstone.

What I mean, who are you most likely to see in the all-star game 2-3 years from now? (or at least has the potential)

I also think the Jays are dealing from a position of strength.  They have arms in the minors that can at least replace those three.

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Jonny German - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#239548) #
This trade bears many similarities to the Jose Cruz trade of July 1997 that sent Paul Spoljaric and Mike Timlin to Seattle. Ash's finest moment? I don't recall him generally getting a lot of praise for it... maybe that's just a matter of retrospect telling us that Cruz didn't turn out to be all that.
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Mike Green - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#239549) #
I was ecstatic about the Cruz Jr. trade at the time, but it didn't turn out that well. I still feel the club would have been better off to leave Stewart in center and Cruz Jr. in left.

I wonder if Henderson Alvarez makes his debut in the Blue Jay bullpen in 2012. There are openings.
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Lylemcr - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#239550) #

Forget Fielder.  The offense is in shaping up nice.  I would like the money spent more evenly and shore up the pitching.

We need some big bullpen arms (Papelbon, Nathan or Bell).  Another starter would be nice too.  There will be a glaring hole at 2b next year too.

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Glevin - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 06:03 PM EDT (#239551) #
Love this trade. Rasmus, as a 23-year old, had an .859 OPS. He has the potential to be an All-Star player and the Jays gave up one good prospect and a bunch of relievers to get him. Very impressive. (I get it from the White Sox POV, they got plenty for Jackson, but The Cards got killed in the deal.)
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uglyone - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#239552) #
Johnson should be the main target for 2B, IMO.

The relief market should be interesting. I'd love to have a real closer but I'm not sure Paps/Bell/Nathan are anything but horrible investments on a longterm deal. We'll probably have to do something similar as last year and sign a number of good but not great relievers, and hope that one of them or one of the kids steps up into that late inning role.

Another starter would be nice, but I'd only be interested in signing a real impact kind of guy there, and I'm not sure if there's any of those guys available. I'm not really interested in clogging up the pipeline with an overexpensive 3/4 guy. The best option here might be the trade route.
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 06:14 PM EDT (#239553) #
I was ecstatic about the Cruz Jr. trade at the time, but it didn't turn out that well.

Me too. This is very similar - promising young outfielder for bullpen arms. Cruz played pretty well here, just not as well as we all hoped.
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spud77 - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#239554) #
AA's next big splash may well be in the international free agent market. I'm not sure when bidding opens, but Yu Darvish (Japan, starting pitcher) is reportedly on our radar and has the upside of a #1 starter... but he won't come cheap
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Original Ryan - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 06:20 PM EDT (#239555) #
I remember Ash getting a lot of praise when the Cruz trade occurred. At the time Cruz was considered a huge prospect and (if I remember correctly) thought to be almost untouchable. The trade was announced a few minutes after the deadline had passed, which made it even more of a surprise when it was announced.
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Ron - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 06:22 PM EDT (#239556) #
We need some big bullpen arms (Papelbon, Nathan or Bell).  Another starter would be nice too.  There will be a glaring hole at 2b next year too.

After watching the bullpen this season, I wouldn't mind going after an established closer under the right deal. I wouldn't go more than 2 years though. At least if you are looking to upgrade the back of the bullpen, this is the off-season to do it since the market will be flooded with these types of pitchers.

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Shaker - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 06:22 PM EDT (#239557) #
AnthoPujols Again!

Another great deal. Look at Rasmus' splits for a while to see where this deal could go for us. Start with his Road OPS and then look at his OPS vs RHP this year compared to his previous 2 years. There is tons of upside here.

Looking forward to completion of the Disgruntled Trifecta when we land Hanley.
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mathesond - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 06:34 PM EDT (#239558) #
I like what AA has done so far but under his regime, the Jays have stopped playing meaningful baseball before August.

Were they playing meaningful games in August before his regime?
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mathesond - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#239559) #
Ash's finest moment? I don't recall him generally getting a lot of praise for it

I remember being absolutely giddy with excitement in a Halifax pool hall when I heard the news about the Cruz Jr. trade. However, I was probably the only one there who felt that way...
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Dave Till - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 06:48 PM EDT (#239560) #
Hmmm... the Jays have acquired a young player who plays a key defensive position and has a broad range of skills, but is widely perceived as having an attitude problem. Gee, where have I heard that before?

Given what the Jays gave up - Rzep and Stewart don't have star potential, and Frasor and Dotel are replaceable - I think that this is a good deal. Rasmus could be a star in Toronto - balls tend to fly over fences in these parts. And, like many others here, I am happy to see the last of Patterson.

How old is Trever Miller (or "Trevor Millor", as I want to refer to him)? Dude must be about 43 or something by now. (I looked it up. He`s 38.)

I was ecstatic about the Cruz Jr. trade at the time, but it didn't turn out that well.

I've always believed that part of the reason for that was that Cruz was never really pushed when he was here. He was handed an outfield job by the Interbrewers, and knew full well that there was nobody around who could take his job away from him (since the Belgian brewmasters were too cheap to spend anything on the team). I'm sure that Cruz gave an acceptable effort, but compare his situation to that of Travis Snider, who has been forced to evolve to get his job back.

Rasmus has declined to speak to media since the club returned from its nine-game road trip Sunday but, according to a family member, was "extremely" pleased by the move.

A young, talented player with something to prove. This could work out.

Another starter would be nice, but I'd only be interested in signing a real impact kind of guy there

To compete in the AL East, the Jays need to shell out money occasionally to sign a top-drawer free agent. The Sox and Yankees sign or trade for at least one such player a year. Unless baseball adds a second wild card in the American League, the Jays are condemned to an eternal third place, since the Yanks and Sox have smart guys in their front offices too.

I still feel the club would have been better off to leave Stewart in center and Cruz Jr. in left.

I always wondered about that too. I assume that Stewart's arm was so bad that baserunners would have gone first-to-third on anything hit near him. And I seem to recall that he didn't judge fly balls that well.

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greenfrog - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#239561) #
Just have to say that after all the Ash/JP years (a.k.a. wandering disconsolately in the desert), this is such a great time to be a Jays fan. To use one of Farrell's favourite words, AA has been "outstanding" as GM. It's just too bad that he'll no longer be able to fly under the radar.
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JB21 - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 07:00 PM EDT (#239562) #
Unless baseball adds a second wild card in the American League, the Jays are condemned to an eternal third place, since the Yanks and Sox have smart guys in their front offices too.

You mean like next season? That is still happening, right?
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JB21 - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 07:01 PM EDT (#239563) #
Also, AA interview on TV now (SN1).
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jerjapan - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 07:07 PM EDT (#239564) #
I like what AA has done so far but under his regime, the Jays have stopped playing meaningful baseball before August. I think it's reasonable to expect the Jays to be competitive next season (i.e. playing meaningful games in September). Even with the Rasmus trade, I want to see the Jays go after Fielder (Lind could be traded for pitching) in the off-season.

Stopped before August?  Ron, you do remember Gord Ash and JP Riccardi, no?
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Glevin - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 07:07 PM EDT (#239565) #
"Also, AA interview on TV now (SN1)."

SN1 and TSN2 pushed me over the edge. I don't care what's on them, I will not pay for them. The channels are completely useless (when the Jays are on SN1, it's usually poker or something on SN) and yet another ridiculous money-grab for these guys.
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Malcolm Little - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 07:19 PM EDT (#239566) #
I was on top of the world, 'til I checked back here and reminded of the Jose Cruz deal. Arrrrgh.
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Ron - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 07:46 PM EDT (#239567) #

Were they playing meaningful games in August before his regime?

Stopped before August?  Ron, you do remember Gord Ash and JP Riccardi, no?

Oh don’t worry, I still remember the Ash and Riccardi regime. When looking at the big picture (Trying to win the World Series) both failed miserably since the Jays didn’t even make the playoffs once.

Due to several intelligent moves, AA has a lot of currency with the media and fan base. Ultimately he will be judged by the on field results which have been lacking so far in his brief tenure as GM. I can’t speak for anybody else, but I want to see on field results next season. Frankly as a paying customer, I’m sick of rebuilding.

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Ryan Day - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 08:26 PM EDT (#239568) #
As I recall it, the Cruz trade was more about the Mariners panicking than Ash being particularly shrewd - that trade was the same day they gave up Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek for Heathcliff Slocumb.

Still, Ash was in the right place at the right time and took advantage of the situation.
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Rich - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 09:11 PM EDT (#239569) #
Morrow, Escobar, now Rasmus...if I were a GM with a talented young player I didn't know what to do with and my call display said "Alex Anthopolous" I would just tell my receptionist I was out.  Forever.
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Shane - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 09:39 PM EDT (#239570) #

This isn't a comment fellating Alex Anthopoulos, but using or comparing anything Gord Ash did with AA is laughingly hysterical and a insult. Ricciardi's not a lot better.

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Gerry - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 09:58 PM EDT (#239571) #
Many of AA's trades have worked out for both teams. Remember Atlanta still have Tyler Pastornicky in AAA. Marcum has pitched well for Milwaukee and League for Seattle. I don't think GM's are running scared.
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Matthew E - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#239572) #
Ash wasn't a different species from Anthopoulos.

As a GM, he wasn't good enough. Doesn't mean he never did anything smart. Ash and Anthopoulos live on the same spectrum, and they probably aren't as far apart as you imagine.

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Magpie - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#239573) #
but using or comparing anything Gord Ash did with AA is laughingly hysterical and a insult. Ricciardi's not a lot better.

We all hope that's true, and there are all kinds of reasons to be impressed with the process so far. But it's the results that will tell the tale. Way too soon to say that. Ash's best team won 88 games, Ricciardi's best won 87. Let's see an Anthopoulos team match that, or beat that, first.

Then comes the really hard part, the only part that really matters anyway. Matching up to Gillick.
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grjas - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 10:03 PM EDT (#239574) #
Almost exactly 1 year ago- July 29, 2010- ""This was a trade about Anthony Gose," Anthopoulos said on a conference call. "We've really liked this player quite a bit for quite some time and knowing how difficult it is to get a premium position player like this with the defence and the speed, (those are) two things we do not have a lot of in this organization.... described as ready for the majors right now by Anthopoulos "

Huh? We've traded Wallace, Zep, Stewart and Fraser so we can have 2 "five tool" centrefielders a few years apart in age. On a team with starting and relief pitching problems. I don't know guys. Hopefully this is a win like picking up Escobar when we had Hechavarria which has clearly worked in spades. But I don't know..


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uglyone - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 10:10 PM EDT (#239575) #
Tampa has build a helluva team by collecting as many CF and SS as humanly possible.

Seems like every player on their team used to be a CF or SS.
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 10:12 PM EDT (#239576) #
We've traded Wallace, Zep, Stewart and Frasor so we can have 2 "five tool" centrefielders a few years apart in age.

Stockpiling talent at the key defensive positions is an excellent, excellent idea. If both guys force their way into the lineup - great! You either have a very desirable piece to offer for something you need, or a player who can simply be moved to another position. If Gose turns out to be a player, and Rasmus develops - Rasmus can go to an outfield corner. Likewise, if Hechevarria is a player, Escobar can easily move to second base.

It's when you're forced to do stuff like move corner outfielders into centre field that you run into problems.
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greenfrog - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 10:13 PM EDT (#239577) #
AA addressed this in his post-trade conference. The team likes Gose, but he's only 20 and is probably a couple of years away. The goal is to have depth at key positions like C, SS and CF - AA said he would love nothing more than for the prospects to excel and force the front office to make a move. There really is no contradiction in going hard after both Rasmus and Gose.
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Shane - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 10:19 PM EDT (#239578) #
I take comfort knowing AA would never have traded Clemens for Homer Bush and Graham Lloyd as keys to anything, or Michael Young for Esteban Loaiza (Homer Bush was a OBP sinkhole at best, and no 2nd base prospects should have been traded at that point, especially for #3 starters when he really needed a #1 and then Steve Trachsel for another 2nd base prospect. Good Gawd.
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Gerry - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 10:19 PM EDT (#239579) #
I will repeat what I said last night, Travis Snider's swing is "off" again. It would not be out of bounds to see him shipped back to Las Vegas or at least get tomorrow night off.
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Mike Green - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 10:21 PM EDT (#239580) #
Concur. If things break right for Rasmus, he is more likely to be a power-hitting corner outfielder in 3 years than a centerfielder. If Gose develops as he might, there is the prospect that he could be a centerfielder for 10 years. Marisnick is more like Rasmus.

Layering players at the key defensive positions is a winning strategy.
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greenfrog - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 10:31 PM EDT (#239581) #
I agree with Gerry's comment. It wouldn't shock me to see Thames eventually beat out Snider for the third starting OF position. Snider has the better pedigree, but has never been able to settle in comfortably for any length of time. He certainly won't last in the majors if he proves unable to hit off-speed stuff.
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Gerry - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 10:36 PM EDT (#239582) #
One other trade related point...

I talked a month ago about how the Jays were getting to have major league average players at most positions. The challenge for AA was to upgrade league average players to above average players. Todays trade does that, quantity for quality and a chance to acquire an above average player in exchange for several average players.
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 10:42 PM EDT (#239583) #
AA would never have traded Clemens for Homer Bush and Graham Lloyd

I do believe Ash got a third player in that trade, which was forced upon him anyway. That guy did all right, as I recall.
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Matthew E - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 10:43 PM EDT (#239584) #
Disagree about Snider. Okay, he's in a slump. But you can't keep sending him to triple-A every time he gets in a slump. Earlier this year, when there was a specific thing they wanted to fix, maybe. But at some point he's got to take off the training wheels, and I think we're at that point.

Besides, he could go 3-4 tomorrow with two doubles and a home run and make us all look silly.

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Original Ryan - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 10:53 PM EDT (#239585) #
I do believe Ash got a third player in that trade, which was forced upon him anyway. That guy did all right, as I recall.

At the time the other guy was a 35 year old with just one year left on his contract. I absolutely hated that trade when it was made, and I'm still think it was a short-sighted and generally poor return for a reigning Cy Young Award winner.
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Shane - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 11:00 PM EDT (#239586) #
Thanks Ryan. The Clemens trade was a failure from the beginning. It was only marginally better than the big 6 player swap with the Pirates that Ash did, which was supposedly his Alomar-Carter trade. Actually, Plesac likely gave more value than Wells ever did. Good grief.
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 11:05 PM EDT (#239587) #
At the time the other guy was a 35 year old with just one year left on his contract.

Oh, I'm sure he would have preferred Pettitte to Wells, but he really didn't have any bargaining power. (Thanks to the secret Clemens side deal with Beeston, of course.)

Maybe I'm mellowing, but I'm even in the mood to cut Ash a little slack on the Young for Lord Voldemort deal. Young's subsequent development was extremely unlikely. I thought at the time that the other second base prospect he moved (Brent Abernathy) looked to have more promise.

Of course, there are baseball people who will tell you that there's really no such thing as a second base prospect. Two reasons - if the guy is really promising, why is he playing second base? And because second baseman tend not to develop. It's a hazard of the position - so many of them get hurt, stall out, never become what you hope they can be.
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 11:12 PM EDT (#239588) #
Actually, Plesac likely gave more value than Wells ever did. Good grief.

Good grief indeed, because now you're just being silly. In his second Toronto tenure, Wells started 69 games, pitched 460 innings, and went 37-18. Plesac pitched 181.2 innings with a 4.21 ERA.

That said, the Pittsburgh trade was indeed an abomination, a disaster, an affront to the Lord - Carlos Garcia? Orlando Merced? Even though the team didn't actually give up anything useful, it was still horrible.
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Ryan Day - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 11:12 PM EDT (#239589) #
If nothing else, Gord Ash drafted Roy Halladay. Anthopoulos has yet to draft anyone with a serious shot at the Hall of Fame.
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Shane - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 11:18 PM EDT (#239590) #
Ya, you may be mellowing a bit (I do with some things as well). Did Ash have to trade with the Yankees? And my point then was then as it is still now: Homer Bush was total suck, never should have been acquired, and once he was, it's a massive failure of Ash's abilities that he thought so highly of him still, and traded away ANY 2nd base prospects, regardless of how Young or Abernathy turned out. Perhaps Ash did the same thing as Ricciardi did with Russ Adams. Pride or blinders got in the way, he didn't update his evaluation of him, and demanded Tulowitzki not be selected. 'Russ Adams can play SS'.
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 11:23 PM EDT (#239591) #
Actually, the Clemens trade started out as a roaring success. In 1999, Clemens went 14-10, 4.60; Wells went 17-10, 4.82 (with an extra 52 IP). Homer Bush, far from being a total suck, hit .320/.353/.421 and stole 32 bases. After the Carlos Garcia-Tilson Brito-Domingo Cedeno years, this looked pretty good. Graeme Lloyd, in his last year before free agency chipped an ERA+ of 136 in his 74 appearances.

It all went downhill after that. But off the first year alone, big edge to Toronto.
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Shane - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 11:27 PM EDT (#239592) #
To be fair and honest, I didn't recall Wells being in TO for two seasons the 2nd time around. Recalled it as one. I do recall that all the world knew Wells adored living and playing in NY and for the Yankees, etc and had a rough departure from the TO the first time. Losing Clemens, for a pissed off, unhappy Wells and a bunch of junk that everyone could see except Ash bothered the heck out of me. The furthering of that trades mistakes made it even more insane.
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Bid - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 11:31 PM EDT (#239593) #
I will repeat what I said last night, Travis Snider's swing is "off" again. It would not be out of bounds to see him shipped back to Las Vegas or at least get tomorrow night off.   Gerry is quite right...we were there for Tuesday's debacle. All Sniders weight is on his front leg--there's little left to shift, minimal hip turn and he looks like he's guessing. I gather tonight may have been similar as I see he was ofer.   On the bright side a young baseball player in our group attending his first ML game caught Molina's foul liner in his first at bat.
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Shane - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 11:35 PM EDT (#239594) #
Homer Bush went over his head that one time and hit .320 that season. Yes, lets not get into his other career achievments. He's the reason Young did what he did in Texas and not TO. Acquiring Lloyd is a move Mozeliak would endorse.
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 11:35 PM EDT (#239595) #
It's the "bunch of junk" that you need to rethink. I think the 2011 Blue Jays could find room for a second baseman who could hit .300 and steal 30 bases. It would be an upgrade, no? Bush's biggest problem was that he just couldn't stay healthy. His hip problems wrecked his 2000 season, and basically ended his career before he turned 30.
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 11:42 PM EDT (#239596) #
Homer Bush went over his head that one time and hit .320 that season.

Curiously, he had a lifetime BAVG of .378 before that season (just 82 ABs, I know), so the .320 actually reduced it considerably!

What about the year (2001) he hit .306?

No - that level of performance was closer to his true level of ability. It's the year he hit .215, the year he first got hurt, that sticks out like a sore thumb.
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Original Ryan - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 11:42 PM EDT (#239597) #
Oh, I'm sure he would have preferred Pettitte to Wells, but he really didn't have any bargaining power. (Thanks to the secret Clemens side deal with Beeston, of course.)

I was hoping Ash would go for younger talent that still had some upside. I forget most of the names that might've been available, but I do recall that the Astros were reportedly offering Mike Hampton. I wasn't a big Hampton fan back then, but a 26 year old starter is more along the lines of what I'd have been looking for.

Even when a GM's hand is forced somewhat, it's still possible to get a decent return as long as there are multiple teams in the running. I think Ash's stubborn insistence on getting established major leaguers was a bigger hindrance than Beeston's side deal with Clemens was.
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Shane - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 11:51 PM EDT (#239598) #
Sure, TO could totally use a 2nd baser who could hit .300 consistently. Bush's offensive value was dependent on his AVG, he wouldn't take a walk to save his life, but he was a kind sounding man, and if you want to sum up his success or lack of, on injury, sure thing.  
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 27 2011 @ 11:57 PM EDT (#239599) #
Hey, it's what happened. Bush's career numbers are .285/.324/.358 - he was the Damaso Garcia (.283/.309/.371) of his generation. A Yankee castoff playing 2b for the Blue Jays...
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Shane - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 12:06 AM EDT (#239600) #

@ Magpie. If that sounded snark like, I didn't mean it too. Homer Bush isn't worth it to me to draw back any further this late at night into Blue Jays history moments that had me basically stop paying attention to the team until a surprise hire came from the sabermetric A's club excited the pee outta me and I got hopeful, interested again in following managment with a plan and a clue. Sad turn there too. Night.

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92-93 - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 12:10 AM EDT (#239601) #
Colby's OPS has dropped each month this year, no wonder STL soured on him. Since April 24th he has hit .212/.301/.373.

April - .867
May - .777
June - .684
July - .595

The Cardinals lead the NL in runs and bolstered their pitching staff in a big way with this trade, so you can see the short term thinking. Their rotation gets better with Jackson replacing McClellan and the bullpen gets MUCH stronger with specialists in Dotel & Rzepczysnki and the ability to use McClellan back there, whose stuff plays up much better as a RP. Their impatience with Rasmus works out quite well for the Jays, and I'm thrilled that AA pounced.
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uglyone - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 01:16 AM EDT (#239602) #
Wow. I didn't even realize rasmus had such a strong start this year.

And he's been red hot the last week or so, too.

Basically they just dumped colby over a bad two months.
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Cynicalguy - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 01:21 AM EDT (#239603) #

To break it down, the Jays give up Rzep, Stewart, two compensation picks (Frasor, Dotel) for Rasmus and not having the pleasure of watching Patterson patrole the outfield.  I don't think the 3 PTBNL would be any big names. 

The WhiteSox did pretty well in getting Frasor and Stewart for Edwin Jackson and freeing up 7M in Teahen's contract.  They probably knew Toronto desperately wanted to get the Rasmus deal done and took advantage.

I just have to say something about Gord Ash here.  He was a terrible GM, and no one was happier than me when he was fired.  Top end starting pitchers is the best trade chip in baseball, and he managed to screw up twice with the David Cone trade and the Roger Clemens trade.  Regardless of how well David Wells pitched for the two seasons he was with Toronto after the trade, Ash caved in both trades as before the trade he went publicly stating he wanted at least two major league ready young players in return and had to settle for a 36 year old starting pitcher for Clemens and some C level prospects for Cone.  Both times getting fleeced by your biggest division rival.  The Cruz trade was his best move, but he had so many bad trades including the Michael Young trade, and the Sirotka.

I don't understand the Jose Cruz comparison with the Rasmus trade.  Yes, just because the two trades was for young outfielders and got the fans excited initially, the end result is going to be exactly the same!  I am not saying the Rasmus trade is going to work out great for sure...but because one trade that didn't end up as envisioned doesn't mean the same thing is going to happen again.  What's that, using a sample size of 1 to predict the outcome of trades?  It's like the comment I hear about Gose and how he is going to be a bust, just because Corey Patterson was once a highly touted 5 tool prospect and look at him now, the same will happen with Gose!

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Zao - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 01:51 AM EDT (#239604) #
Is it just me or do all the big trades happen when we're playing the Orioles?
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TamRa - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 02:30 AM EDT (#239605) #
Wow. I didn't even realize rasmus had such a strong start this year.

And he's been red hot the last week or so, too.

Basically they just dumped colby over a bad two months.


On April 23 he was hitting .993

Since the break he's  .908 in 8 games, 21 AB (a wholly irrelevant sample size)

So in that sense it's true, but the tiny sample size bothers me. but it's different and somewhat better to me than what you said, he's actually had two slumps which were very very deep which drags down the overall line

Coming into the break he was on a 10 game stretch (dating back to June 30) in which his OPS was .364 in 38 at bats. That's one of them.

Over the previous 22 games dating back to June 3, it had been .655 in 75 AB - which is not good at all but not deep in the pit.

So combined, over the last month+ right before the break, 32 games, 113 AB, his OPS was his slash was .186/.231/.327/.559

THAT was the month that killed him.

From May 3 to June 2, those lines were (26 G 92 AB) -
.261/.370/.467/.838

Before that, April 24 to May 2 his OPS was .403 in 7 games - that's the other really deep slump.

Overall, on June 2 his lines were: ..279/.378/.461/.839  (If he's "just good" and not an All-Star - it might look something like that and that's really helpful.) and without that seven game slump it was .303/.397/.514/.911

(That last might look like the guy you get if he fulfills his potential)

But to get back to your central point, he was mostly great for the first two months of the season (excepting one week) and then he was awful for just over five weeks - though even then it was more like below average for 4 weeks and atrocious for 10 days -  and he's been very good (in a small sample) since.

You could argue that IF they were down on him for struggling this season, they gave up after a five week problem. Still, I think it was way more LaRussa than what he was doing at the plate.

Ultimately, having looked through his season like this, I'm a lot more confident than i was (and i was already fairly confident) that he's going to be huge for us.

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TamRa - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 02:44 AM EDT (#239606) #
I will repeat what I said last night, Travis Snider's swing is "off" again. It would not be out of bounds to see him shipped back to Las Vegas or at least get tomorrow night off.

I haven't been able to watch much - my little underground site where I was watching the feed hasn't had a Jays game in a week - but yeah, he's 6 for his last 42 and is giving back all the momentum he had when he came up. He's also struck out 18 times in those 10 games without a single walk. In retrospect the very very hot streak when he returned might have been slightly counter-productive.

On the other hand - it is just 10 games which is a tiny sample and almost every hitter will have a stretch like that.

Plus, my guess is when you re-work your swing the new habit is easy to fall out of. He'll probably go in and out of it the rest of the year.

But i agree with Matthew E - it does no one any good for him to hit right in Vegas and suck in Toronto. He has to stay here, even if you bury him in the 8 hole, and work through it and prove himself on this stage. Either that or a trade is all that's left. He knows WHAT to do, he just has to do it.

Bautista himself said when he had to change his swing it took some time of doing even worse to get locked into the new style. I don't see that Vegas is going to help him anymore.

(unless it really is Chad Mottola who holds the key in which case a coaching change in the off-season might be worth a look)

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TamRa - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 02:59 AM EDT (#239607) #
Tampa has build a helluva team by collecting as many CF and SS as humanly possible.

You know, just in passing, Tampa is only 1.5 games ahead of the Jays right now.

Our run differential is +12, there's is +14

They really don't have a "helluva team" offensively right now. Longoria, despite a down year, is superstar material, and Ben Zobrist and Matt Joyce are nice above average guys (I still haven't figured out Zobrist yet) and Upton is their Snider.

Otherwise, it's a pretty sucky crew (no I don't buy into the Kotchman Illusion and Jennings hasn't been up long enough to count)


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brent - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 03:25 AM EDT (#239608) #

After reading a lot of different opinions and thoughts, the Jays probably overpaid for Rasmus but it's hard to acquire CF/SS/C. I'm fine with quality over quantity here, especially when it comes to dealing bullpen arms although Stewart hurts. It's also nice getting that left handed bat too. Right now, I think it benefits all teams (especially the White Sox).

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Marc Hulet - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 07:36 AM EDT (#239609) #
With all due respect, the Jays did not, in any way shape or form, overpay for Rasmus. A bunch of relievers who can be easily replaced and a prospect is not overpaying. With that said, I will withhold full judgement until the PTBNLs/cash are announced.
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rpriske - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 09:10 AM EDT (#239613) #

Overpaid?

 

No. Period.

Who did they give up of value? Stewart, I guess. Frasor isn't nothing but once again it is just for the rest of the season and then he is a FA. Zep is pretty much the most overrated player in the organization.

No, AA didn't overpay.

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Ryan Day - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 09:37 AM EDT (#239614) #
The Clemens trade was a fairly unique situation - it's not often a player has a secret "trade me" clause to go along with his no-trade clause. I'd say Green-Mondesi was a far worse trade.
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Jonny German - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 09:51 AM EDT (#239616) #
Clemens his first 2 years in New York: 7.6 WAR

Wells his 2 years back in Toronto: 7.2 WAR
Bush in Toronto: 1.1 WAR
Lloyd in Toronto: 0.8 WAR
________________________
9.1 WAR

Can someone please explain to me why Ash is getting beat up over this?
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adrianveidt - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 09:54 AM EDT (#239617) #
I would like to apply for Travis Snider's job, since I can strike out 4 times in as many plate appearances against Baltimore. And I would be happy to take a bit less money than he is getting.
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Matthew E - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 09:56 AM EDT (#239618) #
it's not often a player has a secret "trade me" clause to go along with his no-trade clause

That always bugged me. A player with a contract like that is basically a second general manager. It was pretty irresponsible to give Clemens that contract, however it worked out.
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Ryan Day - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#239620) #
... and when Lloyd left as a FA, the Jays were able to draft Dustin McGowan as compensation. So that worked out pretty well.
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ayjackson - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#239621) #

And I would be happy to take a bit less money than he is getting.

Unfortunately, it's a union gig, and Snider's getting the minimum.

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Paul D - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 10:25 AM EDT (#239622) #
The Clemens trade was terrible because at that point the Jays needed to be thinking about WAR in 3-5 years, not the next two.  It's also hard to imagine that there wasn't a better package out there for him.

Speaking of Wells, is this the first trade to Chicago since Wells-Sirotka?

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Ryan Day - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 10:34 AM EDT (#239623) #
Of course, we have more than a decade of  hindsight with which to evaulate Ash, so his mistakes are more obvious. Who knows how the Halladay trade will look five years from now, or how many of AA's raw, talented draftees pan out. Everyone was pretty high on Ricciardi for the first few years of his tenure, too.

(It also wasn't too long ago that Jo-Jo Reyes apparently proved that Anthopoulos knew nothing about evaluating pitching, so who knows...)
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92-93 - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#239624) #
Are we overlooking the secondary components the Jays are receiving, like many of us overlooked AA's affection for JoJo Reyes? As awful has he's been this year the roster will look a lot more balanced right to left with Teahen replacing McCoy, so for a pure salary dump you could do a lot worse. They are on the hook for 5.5m for Teahen in 2012 so it's unlikely they just dump him off. As well, Walters seems to be having his typical "success" in the PCL and seems like a decent organizational arm, and we all know what we can expect from Tallet should he get healthy - a mediocre but dependable arm that Gibby & Clarence seemed to love to turn to.
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Mike Green - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#239627) #
Dumping Teahen and his 5.5 million salary is exactly what they should do.  It's a sunk cost, and part of the price in acquiring Rasmus.  Teahen has not had a decent year since 2007. 

Keeping Rivera was a mistake.  Giving all those starts to Jo-Jo was a mistake.  I am hoping that these kinds of mistakes are not repeated in 2012.

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Matthew E - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 10:49 AM EDT (#239628) #
Well, wait; now that they have Teahen to play third they can afford to package Lawrie for Heath Bell. It's perfect!
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85bluejay - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 10:57 AM EDT (#239630) #

When AA was named GM about 20 months ago, I was one of his 1st cheerleaders because he impressed me in his elucidation of his plans ( & because I was so happy that JP whom I'd given up on in 2006 was gone) - since then, AA has exceeded my expectations and I expect the jays will become winners again - Look at the type of players he has acquired, Morrow/Escobar/drabek/gose/D'Arnaud/Rasmus/Lawrie (I know that some smart alec will mention Jo-Jo etc. - the peripheral players) - while some will fail, all have star level upside which is what you need in the AL east ( and one of my pet peeve about the last FO). I also like the fact that he wasn't fooled with last years over-achievement and continued his building project - I'm as pumped as I've been since the glory days.I've read some recent criticism about AA regarding  Jo-Jo/not spending enough/the gamble with veteran relievers this year etc. and while I disagree with most of the criticism,I welcome it - I always get worried when everyone starts singing from the same page of the hymn book (ie. AA is a genius - hey, the jays haven't won anything yet)  

In addition, I'm even more impressed with what AA & company have done via the draft & IFA - A steady stream of talent is vital for a prolonged run - The days of the Belgian beer boys seem so far away 

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85bluejay - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 11:01 AM EDT (#239631) #

Respectfully Mike Green, I have to disagree

In a contending year, Rivera & Reyes would be a mistake - In a building year, not a mistake

A good example, the royals taking a gamble on Paulino & it's looking like he will become an asset.

 

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92-93 - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 11:04 AM EDT (#239632) #
A bigger mistake would've been to pay Juan Rivera 5.25m without making sure he couldn't provide value to the team by instantly releasing him.
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Jonny German - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 11:05 AM EDT (#239633) #
I don't think the balance Teahen brings as a left-handed bat counts for much at all given

a) he hits poorly regardless of pitcher handedness

b) the regular lineup now has 4 good lefthanded bats (Lind/Rasmus/Snider/Thames)

At least McCoy can get on base. And doesn't stink on defence. Sign me up for the "Ditch Teahen" campaign.
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Mike Green - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 11:11 AM EDT (#239635) #
It was clear from the outset that Rivera had some use to a club as a bench player.  The Jays were not that club because of the right/left balance on the club.  He should have been shopped before the season began for whatever could be had for him, and if the answer was a bucket of balls, that is what should have been done. 

Teahen is a poor defensive third basemen who hasn't had decent year with the bat in the last 4 years.  You've got Lawrie, and in the event of injury, you have Bautista, with 5 better options than Teahen to take a corner OF slot. 



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85bluejay - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 11:12 AM EDT (#239636) #
My guess is that 2 of Teahen/EE/Davis will be gone by next spring - too expensive a bench - since the Jays can opt not pick up EE's option, Davis still has some value (& Mastro. can do his job much cheaper )- teahen is most likely to remain
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92-93 - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 11:12 AM EDT (#239637) #
With Weekes down for 4-6 weeks and Counsell 0 for his last 38 I wonder if AA has offered up a certain 2B to shore up the Brewers infield for the stretch run.
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Magpie - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#239638) #
I assume that for the moment, Teahen becomes the new Jose Bautista (before he became JOSE BAUTISTA!!) - you know, a guy who can play both infield corners, the outfield corners, and someone who once showed promise as a hitter and maybe something can be done about that. He may turn out to be useless, but that type of player is obviously an asset in the era of the 7 man pen and there's no real harm in seeing if anything can be made of him.
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R Billie - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 11:29 AM EDT (#239639) #
There's no real conceivable reason for Teahen to remain though. With age and consistently poor performance for a few years now, does anyone anticipate he's going to get a significant number of at bats? Consider the positions he's capable of playing (and he's below average defensively at just about all of them):

3B: you have Lawrie, Bautista, and even EE
1B: Lind, EE, maybe Cooper
LF: Thames, Snider, Davis
RF: Thames, Snider, Bautista, Davis
DH: EE, extra outfielder once Lawrie is up, free agent signing for 2012

The only way Teahen benefits the Jays is if (a) his salary can be moved (b) he has a real impact on the field over a significant number of at bats.

Yet the only way (a) can be true is for (b) to be true. But who can you honestly justify playing Teahen over on this roster without looking silly and overly desperate to get something out of his big salary? No-one I can see.

The Jays are stuck here. Releasing Teahen and giving the higher upside players a roster spot and playing time seems to be the only rational course of action. I have no interest in playing Teahen regularly for the remainder of this year any of next year in the hopes that he can somehow perform well enough for long enough to move a small chunk of his remaining money.

Sure, it's a lot to absorb but at this point you have to look at it as a signing bonus for Rasmus.
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Jonny German - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 11:31 AM EDT (#239640) #
Maybe not "real harm", but there is a cost to keeping Teahen around even for a couple of weeks. You either have to go with a 5-man bench, or leave Lawrie in Vegas, or ditch/demote one of Encarnacion, Thames, or Snider.
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subculture - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 11:33 AM EDT (#239641) #
With Weekes down for 4-6 weeks and Counsell 0 for his last 38 I wonder if AA has offered up a certain 2B to shore up the Brewers infield for the stretch run.

That would be pretty cool if AA could turn Hill into a top prospect... get Lawrie back into 2b mode (even if that means keeping him in AAA this year), keep JB at 3b, and Rasmus/Thames/Snyder/Rajai a very promising outfield....
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92-93 - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 11:37 AM EDT (#239643) #
Or you just option McCoy down.
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Jonny German - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#239645) #
McCoy down just allows you to have a bench of Molina/McDonald/Davis/Teahen. To get Lawrie up you need to go to a 6-man pen or get rid of a defensively limited hitter.
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Jonny German - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 11:45 AM EDT (#239646) #
I can't recall a salary-dump trade where the overpriced player was immediately released by his new team. Does the CBA have some limitation on it?
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Anders - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#239647) #
Well, wait; now that they have Teahen to play third they can afford to package Lawrie for Heath Bell. It's perfect!

It seems reasonably probable, as suggested in the other thread I believe, that AA was inquiring on Bell to move him to St. Louis.

That would be pretty cool if AA could turn Hill into a top prospect... get Lawrie back into 2b mode (even if that means keeping him in AAA this year), keep JB at 3b, and Rasmus/Thames/Snyder/Rajai a very promising outfield....

Well the Brewers farm system is pretty bad, and Lawrie ain't gonna be playing third base...

For what it's worth both Dotel and Frasor have team options. Frasor could probably decline arbitration, but he's actually a good reliever and the White Sox might want to keep him. Dotel would be nuts to turn down arbitration, there's no way he's going to bring picks; he's a 38 year old ROOGY who's going to throw 50 below average innings and be in line for almost 4 million bucks in arbitration.
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ayjackson - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#239649) #

Well the Brewers farm system is pretty bad

So is Hill.  Could be a match?

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Magpie - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 12:14 PM EDT (#239650) #
With Weekes down for 4-6 weeks and Counsell 0 for his last 38

You're no fun. I want to see how far Counsell can take this.
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uglyone - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 12:18 PM EDT (#239651) #
You know, just in passing, Tampa is only 1.5 games ahead of the Jays right now. Our run differential is +12, there's is +14 They really don't have a "helluva team" offensively right now. Longoria, despite a down year, is superstar material, and Ben Zobrist and Matt Joyce are nice above average guys (I still haven't figured out Zobrist yet) and Upton is their Snider. Otherwise, it's a pretty sucky crew (no I don't buy into the Kotchman Illusion and Jennings hasn't been up long enough to count)

I'm not talking about just this year, but for their last 5 years of excellent teams. They have collected CF and SS talent non-stop since their inception as a franchise, and there never seems to be a "logjam" at either position for them.

CF R.Baldelli CF J.Gathright CF J.Hamilton CF C.Crawford CF B.Upton CF E.Dukes CF D.Young CF J.Ruggiano CF D.Jennings CF T.Glaesman (2009 3rd rounder)

SS B.Zobrist SS J.Bartlett SS B.Upton SS R.Brignac SS E.Longoria SS B.Harris SS T.Beckham SS K.Diekroger (2009 2nd rounder)
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bpoz - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#239653) #
Jay's GMs

Gillick was good. Outstanding at Rule #5. Also great at keeping all his good players. Draft picks like Tom Goffena, Gary Harris & Augie Schmidt and many 1st picks did not pan out. But he built a champion.

Ash was trying to continue to win championships. Yet at the same time was trying to cut payroll or at least limit it, and also replace ageing vets. That is a tall order. He failed.
He got hustled a few times in trades and IMO quite a few GMs may have known about that.
IMO the fans gave him the least patience. Still there must be a better way to dismantle a champion and rebuild. I don't know how but Ash did not know either.

JP had a plan and he followed it. He tried to win as well but IMO did it differently. Overall he failed, but I give him some credit.
He wanted to draft college players & not HS players in his early drafts. He did that and had some success especially with pitchers. A lot of his young players are still with us & developing well.
Injuries hurt him a lot.
He must have got something for the prospects that Ash developed but I don't know what.
IMO he spent his Budget, his way. He must have realized he could not spend as much as the NYY, so getting AJ Burnett and other expensive FAs meant cutting somewhere else ie K Mench & others and also spending less on the draft. I did not like his FAs but I am OK with his drafts. Delgado's contract was not his doing & Well's contract could have been interference from higher ups. His work could have been a disaster, with paying injured & released players & taking affordable picks in the draft, so you can pay those players.

AA has acquired high ceiling talent in trades & the draft. I feel justified but maybe I am wrong but I give AA very little credit for the successful 85 win 2010 season. Most of the talent was from JP. Winning so far has not been a priority of AA. His priority is talent Acquisition and development. He is having great success at this IMO. I don't know when he will decide to make winning his top priority. I hope he is as successful at winning. He too will be judged.
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uglyone - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 12:45 PM EDT (#239655) #
And I'm all aboard the "dump Teahen" train. The only possible reason I'd think of keeping him is if we could get something useful in return for EE right now.

Lawrie is currently the best qualified hitter in all of minor league baseball, as a 21 year old in AAA.

He has played 10 AAA games since returning from a couple months off to a wrist injury.

In his first 2 games, both on the same day, he was 0 for 7 with 5 strikeouts.

In his 8 games since then he's done this:

35ab, 16h, 3db, 1tr, 3hr, 9rbi, 4bb/5k, 1/2sb, .457avg, .513obp, .857slg, 1.370ops

last time we tried to get cute with delaying his callup, he suffered a two-month injury.

is AA really going to try and be overly cute again? for what reason? please lord not for the sake of Mark Teahen.

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bpoz - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 12:54 PM EDT (#239656) #
Can Teahen play catcher?
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greenfrog - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#239657) #
"last time we tried to get cute with delaying his callup, he suffered a two-month injury"

Life would be so much simpler without pesky concepts like 'correlation does not imply causation.'
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85bluejay - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#239658) #
I can 100% GTD. that Teahen will not be DFA, unless it's this time next year 
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85bluejay - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 12:59 PM EDT (#239659) #

Greenfrog,

                well done - but you may be asking too much of some.

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Ryan Day - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#239660) #
If Lawrie gets hurt in his first MLB game, will Anthopoulos have hurt the team by calling him up?
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92-93 - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 01:06 PM EDT (#239662) #
No. But if he gets hurt while he is MLB-ready and playing in the minors, he's slowed down his development for a 2nd time.
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Jonny German - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#239663) #
If you read BBTF at all you're probably a little scared about Colby's dad, but he sounds reasonable enough in this article:
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/27/rasmus-dad-blasts-tony--la-russa

I like this quote:
“Tony [LaRussa] would like to have 25 pitchers,” Tony Rasmus said, “like he thinks he has to put his stamp on every ball game."
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CSHunt68 - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 01:11 PM EDT (#239664) #
How is an injury AA's fault? Are they more prevalent in the minors? Why wouldn't it be his fault if it happened in the show? *confused*
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uglyone - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#239665) #
Life would be so much simpler without pesky concepts like 'correlation does not imply causation.'

"once bitten, twice shy"

"fool me once shame on you, fool me twice....we won't get fooled again!"

but seriously, looking for reasons to keep him down is much harder than finding reasons for him to come up right now. the injury he suffered was almost karmic, given that the Jays had pretty much called him up and were just being super-cute by waiting for a road game for whatever reason.
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92-93 - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 01:21 PM EDT (#239666) #
The injury isn't his fault. The unnecessary risk of allowing a fully developed player to play a professional sport for a different team is.
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CSHunt68 - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#239667) #
Same risk here as there. His development was retarded because he got injured, not because he was playing elsewhere.
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92-93 - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#239668) #
There's a purpose to the risk here. There's no purpose to the risk in AAA if he's MLB-ready.
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uglyone - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#239669) #
I shouldn't have brought up the injury. It was a sidepoint.

the more important point is that Lawrie had already earned a callup two months ago, and is hitting even better now than he was then.

we delayed his callup last time for no real reason....so the question remains, are we really going to do that again?

why?
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92-93 - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 01:31 PM EDT (#239670) #
Rasmus' career splits suggest that Busch was killing his left-handed pop, something the Dome won't inhibit.

Home .257/.329/.423
Away .261/.338/.465

I did a quick look at his #s in the various ballparks across MLB and it appears he hits very well in the better run-scoring environments. Here we go.

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Ron - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#239671) #
AA was asked about Lawrie yesterday and he said there's no concrete date to bring him up. He said he wouldn't be called up unless he is doing well with the bat and drawing walks. He also wants to make sure he regains the defensive strides he made before he was injured.

If the goal is to win baseball games at the major league level, Lawrie should be with the Jays right now.

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jerjapan - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#239673) #
The irony of this trade is that it validates the Octavio Dotel signing... 
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Ryan Day - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#239674) #
Even if Tony Rasmus makes some reasonable points, making them in public is pretty bad form. He sounds like an overzealous parent yelling at the umpire in a t-ball game.
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ayjackson - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 01:57 PM EDT (#239675) #
If the goal is to win baseball games at the major league level, Lawrie should be with the Jays right now.

Though that clearly has not been the goal.  Asset development has been the primary goal.

 

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eldarion - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#239676) #

MLBtraderumours.com has some reaction to the trade...the Cards are getting slammed badly:

On the off-chance you missed it, the Blue Jays, Cardinals and White Sox announced a pair of major trades today. The Blue Jays acquired center fielder Colby Rasmus and pitchers Trever Miller, Brian Tallet, and P.J. Walters from the Cardinals for starter Edwin Jackson, relievers Marc Rzepczynski and Octavio Dotel, outfielder Corey Patterson, and three players to be named later or cash considerations. Before completing the deal with St. Louis, the Blue Jays acquired Jackson and third baseman Mark Teahen from the White Sox for reliever Jason Frasor and prospect Zach Stewart. Here’s reaction to the trades from around MLB. Be warned, Cardinals fans, you might not like what follows... 

  • The price the Cardinals paid to acquire Jackson and bullpen help was "just too high," according to ESPN.com's Keith Law, who suggests St. Louis' internal emphasis is on manager Tony La Russa, not the players. Law loves what Toronto did and doesn't understand Chicago's move.
  • Jim Bowden of ESPN says the Cardinals had better win this year "or they will really regret this one." He calls St. Louis' move the "worst trade of the year" and gives the Blue Jays an 'A.'
  • Joel Sherman of the New York Post confirms that the Cardinals turned down the Rays' offer of Jeff Niemann and J.P. Howell for Rasmus (Twitter link). Sherman suggests the Cardinals would have been better off accepting Tampa Bay's offer. 
  • A longtime scout tells ESPN.com’s Buster Olney that Rasmus has a chance to be a star. “I don't understand that deal at all," the scout said (Twitter link). 
  • Matthew Leach of MLB.com likes what the Cardinals got for 2011, but finds it hard to like the deal for St. Louis because of what it means for 2012-14 (Twitter link).  
  • As Matt Eddy of Baseball America explains, Walters should qualify for a fourth option year in 2012 and Rzepczynski "might be the prototype" pupil for Cards pitching coach Dave Duncan.
  • Joe Pawlikowski of FanGraphs explains that it's easiest to see the trade from the Blue Jays' perspective, since they gave up three relievers and a prospect for a player who can help them contend for 2012-14.
  • Tim Dierkes wrote earlier today that “it's hard to see this as anything but a win for the Blue Jays.”
  • I agree with Tim and many of the others above- it’s a win for the Blue Jays. Let’s not forget how much has to be in place for this kind of deal to happen: a creative GM who reads the market well, payroll flexibility (for Teahen’s contract), willingness from ownership to take on salary, enough appealing prospects to be able to part with Stewart and enough bullpen depth to send three quality relievers packing on the same day. This trade doesn’t seem simple and in some ways it may actually be more complicated that it appears.
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dan gordon - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#239677) #

Yes, I heard the AA interview on The Fan 590 interview yesterday as well.  As Ron mentions, he wants to see his fielding back to where it was in late May, he wants to see the walks higher and the strikeouts lower, and he wants to call him up when he's in a stretch where he's playing really well - they like to call guys up when they are feeling really good about their game.  I'd say the last point is being fulfilled now, based on Lawrie's hitting the last 8 games.  The BB/K ratio looks good for that span too, although it is a small number of games.  Not sure how his fielding has looked.  I would expect he'll be up to Toronto very soon, probably before the end of next week.

Looking forward to having a lineup featuring Rasmus and Lawrie in addition to Bautista, Lind, etc.  Should be scoring a lot of runs over the last 2 months.  Hoping the team can add a good starting pitcher and a closer in the offseason.

I saw yesterday that Rios has lost his starting job with the Sox.  He and Wells combine for a salary of about $35 million this year, and look at the performance level they are providing.  Rios .208/.255/.300 and Wells .218/.250/.406 Unbelievable the Jays got out from under those 2 deals.  Still 3 years to go on each, too.  If they hadn't been able to dump those guys, no way would they have been able to get Rasmus, because they wouldn't have had the budget to take on Teahen, and there would be no place for him in the field.  The benefit to the organization of ridding themselves of those 2 contracts is hard to overstate, and will reap benefits for years to come. 

The Sox have to be having fits about that Rios contract - he's not even stealing bases all that successfully any more (8 for 13).  Sometimes players are done at 30..... 

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greenfrog - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 02:22 PM EDT (#239678) #
Totally agree. AA has made some brilliant deals, but there is also the cumulative brilliance of his overall strategy (and execution of that strategy). A bit of luck always helps, too (like the La Russa - Rasmus conflict, which gave the Cards the extra impetus to make a deal).
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uglyone - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 02:57 PM EDT (#239679) #
as per AA's comments, Lawrie has 4bb in his last 4gms.
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Jonny German - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 04:05 PM EDT (#239682) #
The first lineup of the Rasmus era:

Escobar 6
Rasmus 8
Bautista 5
Lind 3
Encarnacion 0
Thames 9
Hill 4
Snider 7
Arencibia 2

Seems reasonable to me. If I were to quibble I'd say Encarnacion is a too high and Snider is too low, but that's defensible given how the two have been playing lately. I might prefer this:

Rasmus 8
Escobar 6
Lind 3
Bautista 5
Thames 9
Encarnacion 0
Snider 7
Arencibia 2
Hill 4
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greenfrog - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#239683) #
Pretty amazing that all AA really needs to do is find a 2B and his lineup is close to being set for the next couple of years. With Lawrie and potentially d'Arnaud, it's an excellent lineup, at least on paper.
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Flex - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#239688) #
Aaaarrhhhgh! John Shannon on PTS refers to Colby Rasmus as an AAAA player. Bob McCowan doesn't disagree.
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Original Ryan - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#239689) #
Baseball isn't really John Shannon's area. Last year around this time he speculated Travis Snider could be traded away at the deadline.
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Original Ryan - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#239690) #
Tony Rasmus was interviewed a couple of times on Toronto radio today, on The Fan 590 and TSN Radio.
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Flex - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 06:30 PM EDT (#239692) #
Baseball isn't really John Shannon's area.

I heartily agree, and I don't understand why he gets to spout off on baseball as if he has the slightest clue.
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uglyone - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 08:42 PM EDT (#239693) #
2010 MLB CF OPS Leaders

1) Rasmus (23): .859ops
2) Torres (33): .823
3) McCutcheon (23): .814
4) Young (26): .793
5) Granderson (29): .792

pretty good AAAA player there.
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Paul D - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 08:53 PM EDT (#239694) #

Radio guys said that Mills is getting the start on Saturday.

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Maldoff - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 09:19 PM EDT (#239696) #
Rasmus is 0-4. Dump this chump!
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uglyone - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 11:21 PM EDT (#239698) #


Ages: 23, 24, 24
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Alex Obal - Thursday, July 28 2011 @ 11:25 PM EDT (#239699) #
Hell of a game for Encarnacion. I hope Bautista's okay. I'm happy to see the last of J.J. Hardy for awhile. And the Orioles are so, so, so, so terrible.
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katman - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 12:19 AM EDT (#239700) #
Cruising the Cardinals boards, I saw a list of possible minor league players that included both Drew Hutchinson and Nestor Molina. Really hoping that isn't true. If the Cards made them 2/3 PTBNLs, I'd reconsider my stance on the trade. Starting pitchers with truly elite potential are an uncommon commodity as well.

Also somewhat dismayed to see PJ Walters and Trever Miller in Jays uniforms, if it lasts much beyond the next few days.

Miller is the mirror image of Dotel, as in do not *ever* let him pitch to rightys, is 38 (!) years old, and is a free agent in 2012. No future, no point. Is he even a Type B? Not sure it even matters. With Rasmus here and Lawrie looking good, I'd much rather see Perez pitch and develop here.

Time to start stepping on the gas with this development stuff, I think, and sorting a bit faster and more aggressively in a known no-win season. On which topic...

I'd also much rather see Villaneuva taking Walters role, and Litsch back up, so we build some value in Jesse before the 25-man logjam becomes very intense. Which it will, soon. Walters' best possible future doesn't justify getting in the way of that.
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Mylegacy - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 12:25 AM EDT (#239701) #
Please don't tar and feather me - but -

I suggest: LF Snider (L), CF Rasmus (L), RF Thames (L), 3RD Lawrie (R), SS Escobar, 1ST Lind (L), C JPA/d'Arnaud (both R), DH EE (R) in a platoon with Loewen (L) and 2nd Bautista (R).

I'm SURE Jose can play 2nd at an all-star level - heck Jose could play RW for the Canucks at an all-star level!

That would give an AL BEST line-up of:

ESCOBAR (R)
RASMUS (L)
BAUTISTA (R)
LIND (L)
EE (R) or LOEWEN (L) vs Righties
THAMES (L)
LAWRIE (R)
SNIDER (L)
JPA (R)

WOW - or WOW?

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uglyone - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 12:52 AM EDT (#239702) #
@katman

Walters was sent down after the game and litsch was recalled. For now, mills starts and litsch is the longman in the pen.

I'd guess that perez will be recalled as soon as the minimum time from his send down expires. Ledezma would go down at that point, with miller staying as the second lefty. Looking something like this:

CL Janssen
SU Rauch
SU Francisco
LH Perez
RH Camp
LH Miller
RH Litsch

But that could change quick if mills can't hack it in the rotation.
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TamRa - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 01:09 AM EDT (#239703) #
Cruising the Cardinals boards, I saw a list of possible minor league players that included both Drew Hutchinson and Nestor Molina. Really hoping that isn't true. If the Cards made them 2/3 PTBNLs, I'd reconsider my stance on the trade. Starting pitchers with truly elite potential are an uncommon commodity as well.

I've a hunch - though I have no evidence - that the list is not, for instance, just 15 players (making up the number 15 for the example)

Rather, it's something like three lists of five - a premium guy, a "B" guy and a low-level gamble - something like:

1. McGuire, Hutch, Molina, Sanchez, Woj
2. Jimenez, Sierra, Jenkins, Cooper, McDade
3. Nolin, Hobson, Crouse, Pierre, Hawkins

So that you could take Molina OR Hutch - but not both.You have to take one from each group.

Also, I'm guessing that if this is true or similar to the truth then the cash is rated to the slot. for instance, let's say the cash alternative is $3 million, then the first "pick" is worth $1.5 mil, the second is worth 1 mil and the third is worth half a mil

All figures for example only.

so that the Cards could, for instance, take Sierra and $2 million, or take Cooper and Pierre and $1.5 million, or whatever.

Which is a verbose way of saying there's probably some complex formula we will never hear about but i'd be pretty surprised if we lost two or three premium guys to finish this deal.
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Thomas - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 01:27 AM EDT (#239704) #
Cruising the Cardinals boards, I saw a list of possible minor league players that included both Drew Hutchinson and Nestor Molina. Really hoping that isn't true. If the Cards made them 2/3 PTBNLs, I'd reconsider my stance on the trade. Starting pitchers with truly elite potential are an uncommon commodity as well.

Did they source this or were they just guessing at players they'd like to have and that they perceived as realistic. I agree with you that the trade looks different with Hutchison, Molina and another body included (or McGuire, Sierra and Crouse, to use another made-up example) than it does with Cooper, Alan Farina and Andrew Liebel, to make up three names of my own.

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katman - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 01:37 AM EDT (#239705) #
Sourcing very murky, even the guys on the boards were making few claims. That's why I was reserved and said only that I hope it isn't true. Nobody outside the orgs knows, so all we can do is wait and hope.

The "Chinese Menu" approach does seem more sensible - I agree it's probably an involved formula of some kind. However they strike it, losing even one of Hutch or Molina would hurt (I think Molina's the one I'd hate losing most, but Hutch has composure to match his stuff). Still, it would probably be acceptable if the rest looked like your B/C lists.
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Original Ryan - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 02:00 AM EDT (#239706) #
If they were legitimate prospects, they probably would've been named when the trade occurred. The "or cash considerations" element is usually a signal that there's a good chance the other team isn't going to want any of the guys it can choose from. We'll find out for sure when the minor league season is over, but I'm not worried.
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hypobole - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 02:06 AM EDT (#239707) #
I'd be shocked if any of our top prospects were part of the deal. I'm guessing the PTBNLers are guys like Chad Beck, Kevin Nolan, Ryan Goins, Markus Brisker, Ryan Tepera.
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Spifficus - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 02:11 AM EDT (#239708) #
I'm guessing Cash, Dinero and Argent.
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Waveburner - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 02:16 AM EDT (#239709) #

I agree. Very rarely do any prospects of C+ or greater value end up as PTBNL, unless they signed less than one year ago. Would actually be surprised to see any of the prospects listed above included in the trade, especially the top row. Seeing how the deal was 'held up' for a bit due to the cash part of the deal, I'm guessing the Cardinals are much more interested in the cash. Not worried about the PTBNL, at least until I am proven wrong anyways.

I am getting somewhat worried about Lind again though. His OPS has been dropping significantly in July. Hope it's just an extended slump, not something worse.

 

 

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Original Ryan - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 02:30 AM EDT (#239710) #
Further, the person who posted the alleged list on the Cards message board is probably just someone trying to look important by pretending to have inside information. I've seen that sort of thing numerous times over the years.
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85bluejay - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 07:26 AM EDT (#239712) #
I doubt any significant prospect will be involved - I  read somewhere that it depends on whether Jackson/Dotel leave or are resigned - If players resign, then I think it's cash
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85bluejay - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 07:30 AM EDT (#239713) #
I remember at the time of the Morrow trade - all sorts of post on Mariners sites were adamant that the PTNL had to Snider/Wallace/Lind.
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85bluejay - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 08:04 AM EDT (#239714) #

This will make Mike Green & others happy - The Cards GM has indicated that there's a good chance that Zep. will be a starter in 2012 - I think with an excellent pitching coach & in the NL central he has a good chance to be successful - I had my doubts that he would succeed in the AL east with his command problems.

The approach the Jays have announced that they will take with Colby (& his dad) is pretty much the advice that the excellent Bernie Miklasz of the St.Louis Post wrote in his column - seems a sensible start.  

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spud77 - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 08:31 AM EDT (#239716) #
and the patterson signing
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bpoz - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 09:43 AM EDT (#239719) #
A lot of payroll changed hands with this trade. Some of the $ exchanges are unknown, ie $ to ST Louis.

White Sox added $3mil but subtracted $9mil?

St Louis added $9mil? and subtracted $4-5mil? And will receive $? from Jays.

Jays added $6mil? (+$5mil in 2012) and subtracted $7mil?

Each team is receiving potential Type B FAs.

The above is some kind if recap.

There are rules that I don't know, regarding the size of $ transactions between teams which require league approval. Most of the time it could just be a formality. But I am not sure.

I can see every team winning this deal on paper. Each team had different goals.



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Hodgie - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 10:32 AM EDT (#239722) #
To be fair to the posters at VEB, the list of Jays prospects bandied around was not someone trying to feel important but rather a list of names someone found intriguing below AA and was therefore inquiring about.
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hypobole - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 10:51 AM EDT (#239724) #
I doubt any significant prospect will be involved - I  read somewhere that it depends on whether Jackson/Dotel leave or are resigned - If players resign, then I think it's cash                                 Not  sure why Dotel would need to be resigned, isn't there a team option for 2012 in his contract?
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bpoz - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 11:44 AM EDT (#239727) #
The PTBNL is guessing.

AA seems to get his players by not letting much if anything get in his way.
$6mil in Halladay trade. I did not like that.$5 In Wells trade. I liked that.

The F Lewis & Carlos V was cash. $75,000 each. IMO insignificant.

Then there is the delays in announcing the $. Weeks or 1-2 months for the $75,000. Also the $5mil for Wells was not clear or right away IMO.
J Rivera to LAD, $ still not announced. And I believe that AA requested LAD not to reveal the amount.
FF from Texas $?.

At times it could be the league that is responsible for the delay. They delay the draft signings in some cases. I don't know who reviews these $ amounts and if there has to be adjustments.
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ayjackson - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#239728) #
By resigned, he probably means accept arb.
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DaveB - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 02:05 PM EDT (#239737) #
From Ken Rosenthal, re PTBNL --"The three players to be named? Don't get too excited. They are not top prospects, according to a source."

Just a guess but perhaps Adam Loewen is one. I too doubt any significant prospect  is involved, though some prospect pornsters might get their knickers in a knot when the PTBNL are announced.

85BlueJay -- The approach the Jays have announced that they will take with Colby (& his dad) is pretty much the advice that the excellent Bernie Miklasz of the St.Louis Post wrote in his column - seems a sensible start. 

Agreed, 85. Miklasz made many good points in his "advice to the Blue Jays" segment. Finding a way to bring T. Rasmus into the loop is a fine concept but that loop is filled with landmines, from slumps and batting order and the inevitable move out of CF to difficult arb cases and contract valuation and the approach of free agency. It was a good trade but I think both the T. Rasmus honeymoon and Colby's time with the Jays will be short.
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JohnL - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#239740) #
Robert Macleod in a story in today's Globe & Mail wrote about Rasmus's first meeting with Toronto media.

"It would appear his personality will be an acquired taste"

I also liked Rasmus's comment about meeting Anthopolous: “He talks fast so I was trying to keep up with him,” Rasmus said.

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bpoz - Friday, July 29 2011 @ 04:30 PM EDT (#239741) #
I only realized later that with over 100 games played so far all the $ I estimated changing hands have to be reduced by 60% regarding 2011 payroll.
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Shane - Sunday, July 31 2011 @ 07:38 AM EDT (#239813) #
  Clemens his first 2 years in New York: 7.6 WAR

Wells his 2 years back in Toronto: 7.2 WAR
Bush in Toronto: 1.1 WAR
Lloyd in Toronto: 0.8 WAR
________________________
9.1 WAR

Can someone please explain to me why Ash is getting beat up over this?   Are you serious? 1.1 WAR and 0.8 WAR? Some amazing building blocks there, (or as he thought he  was doing) amazing pieces to fortify a playoff caliber club there man.
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