Batter's Box Interactive Magazine

According to Twitter, the Blue Jays have designated left-handed starter Jo-Jo Reyes for assignment. Fellow southpaw Wil Ledezma has been called up from AAA Las Vegas.

Jo-Jo Reyes on JaysVision prior to Wednesday's game against Seattle.

Reyes was 5-8 with a 5.40 earned run average for Toronto this season. He struck out 64 and walked 35 over 110 innings.

The 26 year-old native of West Covina, California goes down to Las Vegas despite winning two of three decisions in the month of July. However, Reyes has been bombed in his last two starts. He gave up eight runs on eight hits and a walk over 4 1/3 innings in Texas' 12-2 shellacking Friday night. His prior start saw him get burned for seven runs on 10 hits and a walk over five innings but he still managed to get the 'W' during the Jays 16-7 win over the New York Yankees to begin the second half of the season. His other win this month came in Cleveland before the break as he yielded three unearned runs on eight hits and three walks over 5 2/3 innings during an 11-7 victory.

Reyes did have his good moments on the mound. He suffered a hard-luck loss in Anaheim against Jered Weaver April 10 despite allowing three runs (one earned) over seven innings. On May 3, he allowed just one run over six frames in Tampa Bay but got a no-decision in an eventual 3-2 loss and spun seven shutout innings May 20 at home against Houston but the Jays bullpen collapsed in a 5-2 loss. Reyes got that first elusive win by going the distance at the Dome against the Indians in a 11-1 Jays romp May 30. That prevented Reyes from a setting a major league record for most consecutive starts without a victory. His 28 straight winless starts leaves him tied with Matt Keough (1978-79) and Cliff Curtis (1910-11, who Magpie and Mick fondly remember!) for that dishonour.

Reyes did win two more games in June with road wins against Baltimore and Cincinnati but that was offset by three losses to Boston, Atlanta and Pittsburgh. His last hurrah in Toronto was overcoming a rough beginning by lasting six innings in a 7-4 win over Cliff Lee and the Philadelphia Phillies July 3. Toronto was 9-11 in his 20 starts this season.

Coming up to take Reyes' spot on the roster is Wil Ledezma, who went 1-1 with a 4.65 ERA and three saves in 34 appearances with Las Vegas this season. He has punched out 63 batters and walked 18 in 46 2/3 innings of work.

The 30 year-old lefty from Venezuela has been in the bigs since 2003 and has pitched for Detroit, Atlanta, San Diego, Arizona, Washington and Pittsburgh. This is Ledezma's second tour of duty with the Jays organization. He signed with the Jays as a free agent in August of 2009 and saw time with Dunedin, New Hampshire and Syracuse but did not get a call to go to Baseball North. He spent last season in Pittsburgh and went 0-3 with a 6.86 ERA but did strike out 22 batters over 19 2/3 innings.

According to FanGraphs.com, Ledezma throws a fastball averaging 93 miles per hour with a silder that clocks around 84 MPH. He also flashes an occasional changeup at 83. His career record is 15-25 with a 5.29 ERA over 390 1/3 innings. Speculation is Ledezma will be a temporary call-up while the Jays decide on who will replace Reyes as the team's fifth starter. The Jays website says Ledezma will be wearing #58.

Posted by #2JBrumfield on Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 01:49 PM EDT.

Jo-Jo Reyes DFA | 75 comments | Create New Account

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92-93 - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 02:10 PM EDT (#239098) #

It would be nice if Ledezma is being called up as a lefty specialist because they plan on stretching out Zep to join the rotation for next Saturday's start.

tstaddon - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 02:13 PM EDT (#239099) #

After the last two turns, it had to be done. At this time of year, it will be interesting to see if he can fetch someone like Ronnie Uviedo, who we obtained last spring for Dana Eveland.

I assume Ledezma is here until Perez's 10 days are up. Though, of course, the looming deadline could allow both of them to stay. Ledezma's numbers with Pittsburgh were deceptive last year. He was much better, particularly against left-handers, than his ERA suggests. Most interesting is who will start Thursday's game against Baltimore. Litsch would seem to have the inside track. But I wouldn't rule out Brad Mills, who impressed against Baltimore last year and who, I suspect, the Jays will want to get a final look at & and possibly showcase.

Also notable is that Scott Richmond has been outrighted to Las Vegas, removing him from the 40-man roster. That now stands at 38.

The_Game - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 02:18 PM EDT (#239100) #

It's just unfortunate that this didn't happen two months ago when it should have.

As much as we'd all like to see Rzep back in a starting role eventually, I suspect Litsch will be the choice to replace him.

tstaddon - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 02:24 PM EDT (#239101) #

Brett Lawrie's rather imminent promotion will push the 40-man to 39. I expect that to come August 1, which will allow him to debut August 2 in Tampa.

Original Ryan - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 02:31 PM EDT (#239102) #

Nitpick: The 40-man roster appears to be at 37 right now.

Anders - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 02:41 PM EDT (#239103) #

Brett Lawrie's rather imminent promotion will push the 40-man to 39. I expect that to come August 1, which will allow him to debut August 2 in Tampa.

If I was a betting man I would guess that the club with keep Lawrie down until September 1st, thus saving him 60 days service time (you only have to be on the 40 man roster to play in September, and every day you are on the 25 man is a day of service time.)

As for Ledezma, if they plan on having him start on Wednesday, or whatever it would be, I give up. That would be the dumbest possible thing, and in that case they might as well have just kept Reyes. If they plan on starting Rzepczysnki and making Ledezma the lefty in the pen til they can bring Perez back, ok, borderline acceptable, but there is just no way that Wil Ledezma should be starting for this team under any circumstances not involving the plague.

uglyone - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 02:49 PM EDT (#239104) #

20 damn starts for this guy. pure insanity.

Original Ryan - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 02:49 PM EDT (#239105) #

I could be wrong (as I recently was about Reyes in another thread), but I doubt Ledezma will be starting. He hasn't started a game at any level in three years, and he really hasn't been stretched out in Las Vegas. My guess is that a starter will be called up before Reyes' turn in the rotation comes up again.

uglyone - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#239106) #

If I was a betting man I would guess that the club with keep Lawrie down until September 1st, thus saving him 60 days service time (you only have to be on the 40 man roster to play in September, and every day you are on the 25 man is a day of service time.)

I'll take that bet.

Landomar - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#239107) #

My guess is that Ledezma is a micromanagement move. He'll be up for a few games as an emergency arm in the bullpen, and then be sent back down when a starter is called up to replace Reyes. I'm hoping for Mills, but Litsch or Stewart also seem to have a pretty good chance. Who knows though. The way the pitching staff has been handled this season, I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being someone completely unexpected, such as Joel Carreno or someone like that.

92-93 - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 03:05 PM EDT (#239108) #

September callups from the 40 man roster accrue MLB service time.

I can't wait until somebody suggests they keep their best option for 3B down until next June 1st, since they aren't contending until 2015 anyway so we might as well have control over him for 2018 too. Sheesh.

Alex Obal - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#239109) #

We must imitate the Rays in every way.

One more vote for Mark-Scott Kazmulder in the rotation. And is anyone else wondering whether Perez himself might be worth a shot at some point?

jerjapan - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 03:31 PM EDT (#239111) #

The coaching staff and front office obviously saw something in Jo-Jo that we internet fans, despite all the info we have access to, didn't. We've had plenty of reclamation project successes over the years - Scott Downs and some guy named Jose come to mind - so for us to swing and miss with Jo-Jo is fine by me in this 'see what we've got' year.

Jdog - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#239112) #

Not that I really care, but if you see enough potential in Reyes to waste half a season of a rotation spot, why not try him in the bullpen before the DFA?

The_Game - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 04:24 PM EDT (#239113) #

Because they already tried that experiment...he was called David Purcey.

bpoz - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#239114) #

92-93, I don't think you were serious about anyone wanting to keep Lawrie in the minors until June 1, 2012 because you said Sheesh !! If I am wrong sorry. Please identify any sarcasm or irony.

I think Lawrie or anyone should be called up when they are ready except that:
1) There has to be a spot open for them. Lawrie fits that criteria. 3B was a disaster. His injury prevented & is now delaying his call up.
2) If we are contending at any time then "learning on the job" can hurt the team's chances, so a temporary solution may be the wisest choice.
3)Delay for $/control is tricky. When non contending, rookie bumps are the least painful. Promises or unwritten rules to veterans about playing time can also cost wins to the future team, as the bumps are put into the future, but you may get draft choices.

As far as Reyes goes, this could be a gamble to retain him as teams are busy with July 31 business (thanks TamRa for this insight). If Reyes had so much untapped potential for a 20 start ML development plan then I sincerely ask What could have been the plan. Injuries allowed the Jays his & Drabeks development opportunity. Drabek had a V good 2010 but in AA ball. Reyes IMO had nothing positive to build from in 2009 &10, therefore IMO he did quite well.
If someone claims Reyes is he definitely lost or can something be salvaged.

AA said on PTS recently that options are not as valuable as people seem to think. I think there is a good debatable topic in option management.
For what it is worth Cooper & Stewart have burned an option ( 20 day limit) without the benefit of a good trial.

katman - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#239116) #

I wouldn't say insanity, uglyone. 20 games of major league look is about what you need before you'd essentially remove someone from the organization. The guy was throwing 92-94 from the left side, was a high prospect, and was worth the look. The look didn't pan out. Next.

But it's not like so many other candidates were kicking down the door.

There is a good argument for Zep, but he was maxing out around 5 innings as a starter, and they thought they had a solid back-end bullpen guy, so he was on that, different trial during the same period.

Beyond that, Drabek got a look and showed he wasn't ready in under 20 games.

Stewart got a look and showed that he might be ready, but the Drabek trial makes a case for more minor league time and our closer problems may shift him out of the rotation. He's very likely on next year's roster, question is at what position. We may learn more before 2011 is done. I hope so; in my mind, he has moved ahead of Drabek on the major league ready chart.

There are aspects of Mills' game that suggest he has improved to #5 starter status, maybe #4. Best pitcher in the PCL - but even there, he has really been lit up in a couple of games. In the majors, in the AL East, how many more games like that would there be?

If we had done this in 2012, with Drabek & Stewart a year ahead, guys like Alvarez et. al. as options, then yeah, you'd be right, and we'd be crazy. In 2011, it seemed reasonable. Didn't work out. Letting him go when we did also seemed reasonable.

TamRa - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#239117) #

I assume Ledezma is here until Perez's 10 days are up.

Yes and no - he's here because Perez's 10 days are NOT up yet, otherwise it would have been Perez.

BUT

Most interesting is who will start Thursday's game against Baltimore.

A number of ways to do it. the most obvious is to stat Villianueva and Cecil on their usual turn and not need a starter until 7/30

Possibilities:

on the 28th, you could go with Mills or Stewart (each would be on five days rest which is ok) or even Perez (he's starting in Vegas today). It's also Carreno's regular turn and he's on the 40 too.

On the 29th you could do Drabek on his regular turn

On the 30th you find Listch's regular turn - of, and also Dustin McGowan's.

In order of liklihood, IMO:

Litsch
Stewart
Drabek
Perez
Mills
McGowan
Carreno

That now stands at 38.

37 actually - Lawrie isn't technically on it yet.

TamRa - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#239118) #

If I was a betting man I would guess that the club with keep Lawrie down until September 1st

AA has been crystal clear that they do NOT factor service time in these decisions because - as Snider illustrates - all these guys have a high probability of going back down for a stretch. He and Farrell have both said a lot about getting some looks OUTSIDE September.

I'd be STUNNED if Lawrie wasn't added to the team by August 2.

also, BTW, I think they will be interested in getting McGowan in the majors before September too if practical.

As for Ledezma, if they plan on having him start on Wednesday, or whatever it would be, I give up.

Absolutely no chance that happens. He hasn't a single start in Vegas this year and that's in spite of some seriously ugly work by MacDonald. Nor will they start Zep, there's not enough time to stretch him out in only a week.

92-93 - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#239119) #

Rzepczynski threw 25 pitches over 2.1 innings on Tuesday. They could easily get 30 from him today or tomorrow and then stretch him a little bit more vs. Baltimore in preparation for 60 pitches or so on the 30th vs. Texas, the first time JoJo's rotation spot needs to be filled.

bpoz - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 05:55 PM EDT (#239121) #

Romero & Morrow are in the Jays long term plans. Cecil is still an uncertainty, but will play the rest of 2011. Carlos V has trade potential for JUly 31.
IMO Litsch, Stewart & Mills need to have a serious ML opportunity this year. They can produce in the 2012 pen if not the rotation IMO. Drabek & Alvarez will be making demands for rotation spots some time in 2012.

The_Game - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 06:25 PM EDT (#239122) #

Yeah, they really need to see what they have in Lawrie for the last two months of this season. Enough of the montetary excuses.

Spifficus - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 06:30 PM EDT (#239123) #

While Stewart would be my preference for the rest of the season, I like the idea of using Mills against Baltimore as a showcase start for a possible deadline move. After that, they'll probably jigger Litsch's starting date to line him up, which I also wouldn't be opposed to. McGowan would be a fun wildcard, though...

As for Lawrie, it's just a matter of getting him reps again to make sure he's back swing-wise, with his approach, and defensively. My guess is another week. Outside of that, I can't see anything holding him back, except maybe a couple days finalizing a deal to clear a roster spot.

As for Reyes himself, they worked with him on stuff, it seemed to work, then he lost it, and they tried to fix it again. It was worth the try, and now is the right spot to cut bait (or a few starts before, depending on preference). It's not like he was the worst starter in the league; there are over a dozen worse qualified starters based on WAR, and 22 with a 70 IP limit. I hope he makes it through waivers and gets sent down, but I can't see how someone like the Royals passes on him. He can at least give them some replacement-level innings while they wait on their prospects.

Shane - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 06:50 PM EDT (#239124) #

...see what they have in Lawrie for the last two months of this season. Enough of the montetary excuses.

This must sarcasm directed at someone? Yes? No? If crappy San Diego prospect didn't break his hand he'd have been up here the first week of June already.

Magpie - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#239127) #

Enough of the montetary excuses.

Re Lawrie? I don't get that.

Magpie - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#239128) #

Anyway, GregorMLB is twittering that Farrell has said that the three candidates to replace Reyes in the rotation are Litsch, Mills, and Stewart.

uglyone - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 07:42 PM EDT (#239129) #

I wouldn't say insanity, uglyone. 20 games of major league look is about what you need before you'd essentially remove someone from the organization. The guy was throwing 92-94 from the left side, was a high prospect, and was worth the look. The look didn't pan out. Next.

you know, there are some guys who are worth the look. maybe a guy with previous success in MLB (i.e. Eveland/Litsch), or a guy with a stellar minor league track record (i.e. Mills), or a guy with very good stuff (i.e. Purcey)....but giving a guy with no MLB success in many opportunities, with barely any AAA success, and who's stuff is not even mediocre (mediocre fastball, and no other even mediocre pitches), a full 20 games of starting seems to me like a really dumb move (maybe even a really cocky move). I didn't mind at first....but as soon as Litsch was healthy again he should have gone straight back into the rotation, like he's earned...and the fact we kept Reyes over him was fairly ridiculous, IMO.

and I worship at the altar of AA, so I don't mind taking him to task the odd time I think he's made a really silly decision.

Spifficus - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 07:59 PM EDT (#239130) #

In fairness to JoJo, his velo was better than mediocre for the first 10 starts, and has had ~180 at AAA, with solid success by most measures. Also, I found his slider useful and the changeup had promise... Not saying he's a world-beater or anything, but I could see the things that interested the team enough to give him a fair shot. Of course, he's had that now, and I'll be quite happy to see Litsch (... or Stewart... or Mills) back in the rotation.

Magpie - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 08:36 PM EDT (#239131) #

If they thought Reyes could pitch better than he did in Atlanta, they were right about that. This is indeed the best he's ever done. He's having a career year!

TamRa - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 11:04 PM EDT (#239132) #

Why did Jo-Jo last 20 starts?

Because from Start #5 to Start #14 his ERA was 3.49 mainly.

He began to fall apart on June 22, but he's faced six very good clubs (record wise) since then so that and the approaching trade deadline probably got him a bit of extra rope.

In any case, at most you can say the experiment went on 2-3 games too long. Until late June, he wasn't our problem.

Ron - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 11:22 PM EDT (#239133) #

Was Patterson auditioning for Black Swan 2? That botched fly ball was Manny-esque.

uglyone - Saturday, July 23 2011 @ 11:51 PM EDT (#239134) #

Because from Start #5 to Start #14 his ERA was 3.49 mainly.

I sure as hell hope our GM doesn't use this classic fan-ignoring-the-bad-numbers strategy to run our team.

TamRa - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 12:17 AM EDT (#239135) #

I'm not a Reyes fan, just making sense of things which are not explained to me personally.

Given the choice between posters on a BBS having answers that team management can't find, or team management having reasons that posters on a BBS are not privy to - I'm going with the latter. I'll never comprehend the ease with which armchair GM's slide into "I know better than the professionals" mode.

CLEARLY AA is a hell of a talent evaluator.
CLEARLY he's skilled at his job.

If he kept Reyes for 20 starts, he had GOOD reasons. that's not to say it wasn't a mistake in hindsight - as with Francisco inexplicably underachiving, sometimes you do something that seems right and it fails - but that doesn't change the fact that in his judgement, it was the right move.

that being the case - i can either assume I know better than he does, or I can see if i can suss out what it might be that he knows that we don't.

Again - I'll go with the latter.

I know you praised AA above and i'm not assuming this is a knee-jerk GM bash...but it's still an example of an over-estimation of your own knowledge. IMO.

TamRa - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 12:24 AM EDT (#239136) #

BTW, while I'd love to see Lawrie get the call tonight, I'm gonna assume AA sticks to his methods and calls him August 1. in the mean time, unless he has an acquisition brewing, i'd love to see Patterson catch a DFA in the morning and Adam Loewen replace him. Ultimately Loewen looks to be a bench player and part time DH unless someone fails, so lets see how he handles that role and see before September. At least maybe he'll catch the ball regularly, and Patterson has an OPS of .430 since early June.

Magpie - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 12:34 AM EDT (#239137) #

Was Patterson auditioning for Black Swan 2?

He was asked, and he said the ball was not catchable. And I suppose for him it wasn't, although I think I'm personally acquainted with a number of people who would have made that catch.

AWeb - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 12:35 AM EDT (#239138) #

So with Reyes gone, can they get rid of Patterson now? That was some fine defensive replacing he did there...he's a bad hitter, a terrible baserunner, and tonight showed the comicly awful side of his defense too. DFA Patterson please, Farrell apparently can't resist him.

hypobole - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 12:55 AM EDT (#239139) #

Ultimately Loewen looks to be a bench player and part time DH unless someone fails, so lets see how he handles that role and see before September. At least maybe he'll catch the ball regularly,

I haven't seen Loewen play with Las Vegas, but he misplayed a fly ball during the AFL championship game that was almost a carbon copy of Patterson's gaffe tonight.

Ron - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 01:03 AM EDT (#239140) #

He was asked, and he said the ball was not catchable. And I suppose for him it wasn't, although I think I'm personally acquainted with a number of people who would have made that catch.

I've watched the play about 15 times now and Patterson misjudged how far the ball was hit. Once the ball was hit, he backpedaled really slowly. When the ball lands, Patterson is looking at the wall. He still had a chance to dive for the ball. Patterson reminds me of Bobby Abreu in how they are both afraid of the OF wall/contact. A major league OF'er, especially one with Patterson's speed, should make the catch.

DiscoDave - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 01:17 AM EDT (#239141) #

During Patterson's "breakout" season wit the Cubs long, long ago, what was the injury that derailed his season and perhaps career? My gut tells me it was some sort of wall contact, but my wife tells me my gut is wrong on so many levels.

Alex Obal - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 01:17 AM EDT (#239142) #

The other day someone was asking why Morrow's having a worse season than Karstens. There's one reason...

DiscoDave - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 01:19 AM EDT (#239143) #

No wall contact, "In 2003, he started to become the All-Star the Cubs were looking for, batting .298 with 55 RBI in only 83 games before injuring his knee while running to first on a base hit against the St. Louis Cardinals." Looks like he's just gun shy.

uglyone - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 01:30 AM EDT (#239144) #

I'm not a Reyes fan, just making sense of things which are not explained to me personally. Given the choice between posters on a BBS having answers that team management can't find, or team management having reasons that posters on a BBS are not privy to - I'm going with the latter. I'll never comprehend the ease with which armchair GM's slide into "I know better than the professionals" mode.

So you'll blindly defend any move, even when the only defense you can come up with is "the GM must know best". You'll then try to dress up your lack of an argument with a lame attempt at condescension towards anyone who dares disagree with a management decision. Nice.

We all make mistakes, even my man AA. And this one was pretty blatant - he went pretty far out on a limb for JoJo, without any good reason.

Of course, he's earned leeway for way bigger mistakes than this one. It's not like he went out and signed Werth to a monster contract like I would have done if I were GM.

eungar - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 03:26 AM EDT (#239145) #

im not a huge jojo fan but having watched almost all his starts this year i can honestly say that giving him the chance to pitch wasnt a terrible move by AA. his numbers are ugly but he also had a few starts that were brutal and the rest were either fine or surprisingly good. i think the experiment went on about 2 starts too long. AA should have realized to cut bait 2 starts ago when it was clear that jojo was barely getting through his starts without getting crushed.

i just hope they bring up mills for the next time they need a fifth, though litsch would also be just fine. IMO stewart doesnt need to be called up just yet since he could def improve a lot more. he was good here but needs a lot of work.

ill bet ledezma pitches just once so that he doesnt feel jerked around before being sent back down

TamRa - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 05:03 AM EDT (#239146) #

So you'll blindly defend any move, even when the only defense you can come up with is "the GM must know best".

Not precisely. I was pretty blatant in saying I hated the Dotel signing for just one example. I'm not saying the man can't make a mistake in any way and that should be obvious. i'm saying that when a choice is made that seems to us to be illogical (not giving Mills a shot, for instance, or sticking with Reyes too long, or thinking there's value in Nix) that you HAVE to concede they know something we don't. Because the alternative is that they are so stupid that even people like us can outdo them and neither of us believes THAT.

It might be a fine distinction to distinguish between a mistake and a "GM knows best" situation, and clearly the line will be fuzzy - but I for one will try to make it and remember a little humility.

with a lame attempt at condescension towards anyone who dares disagree with a management decision. Nice.

I'm not trying to say "never disagree with a management decision" - I'm saying there's a difference in the statement:

"I don't understand what they were thinking with Reyes, i can see no reason why they took so long to give up on him and i wouldn't have done it that way"

and the statement:

"Giving Reyes 20 starts was idiotic"

The former is just as much an assertion that a mistake was made as the latter, it just comes from an attitude of "I don't get it" instead of "i obviously know better."

For example:

"without any good reason."

See, that assumes complete knowledge on your part. if you'd said "without any good reason that i can see." I'd have thought that a perfectly reasonable point.

R Billie - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 08:19 AM EDT (#239147) #

There were a lot of people that disagreed with extending Jose Bautista. A lot of blog posts about how dumb the Jays were for believing he wouldn't fall off a cliff the year after his breakout.

There weren't many people that agreed with sketchy veteran pickups like Buck, Gonzalez, etc. last year but most of them worked out well and either netted the Jays a draft pick or even an important piece of the current team (Escobar).

Not everything is working out this year but the philosophy being put into it is the same. I think if there is a criticism, it's being a little slow at the trigger to pull the plug on players who aren't working out. Rivera and Reyes teased at times but overall were just not working. Neither is Patterson for that matter...he's tolerable when he heats up with the bat and doesn't have to play anything over his head (or near another fielder) but otherwise, his seeming lack of instincts for the game tends to cost the Jays more than what his tools provide which is why he's a bench player after his impressive minor league career and not a regular somewhere.

Beyonder - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 08:41 AM EDT (#239148) #

rtcaino - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 11:59 AM EDT (#239151) #

Not precisely. I was pretty blatant in saying I hated the Dotel signing for just one example. I'm not saying the man can't make a mistake in any way and that should be obvious. i'm saying that when a choice is made that seems to us to be illogical (not giving Mills a shot, for instance, or sticking with Reyes too long, or thinking there's value in Nix) that you HAVE to concede they know something we don't. Because the alternative is that they are so stupid that even people like us can outdo them and neither of us believes THAT.

So why does he HAVE to know something we don't when it comes to Mills and Reyes, but not with Dotel?

greenfrog - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 01:17 PM EDT (#239152) #

The Dotel signing was a good one. Righty batters are hitting 159/205/232 (OPS 437) with 4:21 BB:K in 73 PA. Those are ridiculously good numbers.

The problem is that Farrell has used him way too much against LHB (49 PA), who are hitting him to the tune of 237/396/605. Those are also ridiculously good numbers - for the batters. The evidence over the last three years for such an extreme R/L split was overwhelming. Unfortunately, Farrell simply chose to ignore the evidence, continually hoping for better results (similar to the way in which Cito used Gregg on consecutive days last year).

TamRa - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#239156) #

So why does he HAVE to know something we don't when it comes to Mills and Reyes, but not with Dotel?

they don't. Necessarily.

As greenfrog points out, Dotel has done precisely what he ought to have been expected to do, both good and bad. I didn't like the Dotel signing because I'm pre-disposed to younger, more in-house options. i didn't think he'd suck, I thought he was unnecessary - and having to go with 8 relievers for most of the first half pretty much demonstrates that (driven by having no one who deserved to be demoted). Also, when he was signed the noise was that he had the edge to be the closer - which I was much against.

AA explained his reasoning there - to have veteran relievers to support a young pitching staff. there was no mystery, nothing to "figure out" (plus the old hoarding draft picks manuver)

Which is not at all like figuring out what, exactly, made them think so highly of Reyes.

With Dotel -or with the Francisco/Napoli deal that many disagreed with - you can readily see what the thinking is, even if you say "I wouldn't have done it that way"

but all that said, i acknowledged it was a gray area and I'll repeat AGAIN what my thinking is - it's not respectful disagreement I'm commenting on here, saying "it makes no sense to me" is perfectly understandable.

Saying "that's idiotic" is something else altogether.

TamRa - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#239157) #

Sorry Tamra. "AA is a genius and I'll defer to him" is not really a move that's available to someone who posts as often and knowledgeably as you. The whole purpose of this board seems to me to be to mull over managements moves, and it would be a pretty boring thread if everyone simply accepted the moves that were made without criticism because AA knows more than us.

You are misunderstanding my point if you think that's what I'm saying.

"Mulling" has plenty of room for "I don't understand" and "I wouldn't have done it that way" and so forth - which i specifically said was perfectly reasonable and which I've done myself many times even under AA's reign.

"Mulling" does not, IMO, include a flat decleration "that was idiotic" or so forth.

The former allows for difference of opinion and potential lack of complete information - the latter presumes absolute correctness which is indisputable.

It doesn't seem to be to be a contraversial distinction.

I think it goes without saying that everything anyone says on this board is their own opinion. Don't need to say it at the end of every sentence.

That's a point I've made myself on these boards several times over the years. But even opinions vary in tone and implication.

TamRa - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 03:12 PM EDT (#239158) #

There were a lot of people that disagreed with extending Jose Bautista.

I didn't take issue with that, but the winter before I was mildly surprised then didn't DFA him before the signed him to a reasonable deal. I didn't like signing Gonzalez or Kevin Gregg, I've been saying for some time that I'd have ditched Luis Perez from the 40 man if I needed a roster spot.

there are MANY times a fan will look at a move by a GM (or a manager) and say "Huh?!?"

THIS IS NOT WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

More often than not, when I've said "I don't get it" AA came up aces and i was wrong. But either way, I'm not saying that everyone should just bow down and say "AA did it so it must be right"

I think a fair reading of my posts will show that.

grjas - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#239159) #

"My gut tells me it was some sort of wall contact, but my wife tells me my gut is wrong on so many levels."

Nice one DiscoDave. Was worth reading this sequence just for the quote.

Even the pointless bickering by some. (Well almost.)

uglyone - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 06:51 PM EDT (#239162) #

Not precisely. I was pretty blatant in saying I hated the Dotel signing for just one example.

Oh I know. You have no problem disagreeing with a move by our GM. In loud and very long terms, no less. That's why your attempt here to condescend to me with a "GM knows best" argument was so transparent in the first place.

but I for one will try to make it and remember a little humility.

Considering you use these comment sections as your own personal blog much of the time, I think you might want to try a little harder at remembering that humility. And if you can't, at least give a rest to trying to teach a lesson in humility to others.

If you need to imagine an "IMO" at the end of every claim made on a message board to not be offended, then do it, because everything here is an opinion.

Let's all remember - we were all shocked when management even suggested Jo-Jo was in the picture for a starting spot this year. It was a pretty out there move to even let him make the squad, and even more out there to stick with him after his awful first month....and just silly to stick with him the last month or so. The fact that he managed to stick around for 20 starts with a 1.67whip and 5.40era is, IMO, crazy. And no, I don't need to imagine any "secret knowledge" about Jo-Jo that none of us here are privy to - looks to me like our GM got a little bit of a crush on this guy 3 years ago when he witnessed him pitch a nice game (back when he was still actually a decent prospect), and developed a bit of a blind spot on him, and ignored the mountain of evidence against him. He also cornered himself with the no-options situation, which made it harder for him to keep his crush around without putting him in a bad situation.

P.S. all this is IMO

Parker - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 07:20 PM EDT (#239163) #

Funny how TamRa seems to be getting the same type of criticism these days as WillRain did before he disappeared from Batter's Box. Is another alias change in the works?

mathesond - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#239164) #

Tamra is/was WillRain, and explained the change quite eloquently on The Southpaw blog back in November

Parker - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 07:37 PM EDT (#239165) #

I never had a chance to read the blog entry until just now. I knew about the name change, I just didn't know WHY. Thanks for enlightening me, mathesond.

TamRa, I apologize for the snark. I thought you were hiding behind an alias, when in fact you were actually coming out of hiding. Bravo.

Kasi - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 10:36 PM EDT (#239168) #

I think Tamra's point was that while we might not know what AA and the staff is doing in regards to personal decisions, it is silly to say that the decisions are easy and obvious. There are reasons why AA and co are doing things their way. We might know some of them and not know some others. We just don't have the information to know. Ultimately it will come down to results on the field. If the Jays don't perform he'll have to answer for it. We're all guilty a bit of back seat quarterbacking. I'm thinking that AA picked up the relievers this year both to shore up the young rotation and to get type B picks. Sadly the results for whomever has been stuck in the 9th inning role have been underwhelming. The bullpen's stats are actually quite good except for the ninth inning pitcher trying to nail down a win. I don't know who should go there.

On other note, nice to see Cecil go the distance tonight and hit 94 in the ninth. Maybe, just maybe he's back?

Ryan Day - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 10:47 PM EDT (#239170) #

There's no "secret knowledge" necessary. The front office & scouts obviously saw something in Reyes they liked, which isn't unusual - I've ready plenty of flattering reports on him, though they all tend to agree that his results are not equal to his potential.

This is the same front office and scouting staff that drafts all the high-upside high school arms everyone raves about - many of whom received more in signing bonuses than Reyes made this year, and many of whom will be likely to have as successful a career as Reyes. But it seems scouts are only to be trusted when it comes to evaluating 18-year-olds and Cuban refugees.

Reyes may have the tools to be a solid major league starter. He may even do it somewhere else. I'm glad he's moving on, because he was excruciating to watch, but the Jays are hardly the first organization to try and realize a pitcher's potential.

Spifficus - Sunday, July 24 2011 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#239171) #

This is the same front office and scouting staff that drafts all the high-upside high school arms everyone raves about - many of whom received more in signing bonuses than Reyes made this year, and many of whom will be likely to have as successful a career as Reyes. But it seems scouts are only to be trusted when it comes to evaluating 18-year-olds and Cuban refugees.

I don't see this as inconsistent with a scouting-heavy organization. They're looking at the stuff, and what they think they could turn it into (and appeared to have some conversion success early in the season), and not as much at the results. Trying to find major league upside lines up with the Morrow trade, for example, as well as their draft strategy. It's just a case of 'live by the sword, die by the sword.'

And, yeah, the velo bump by Cecil was impressive (let alone the performance itself). I had to check out pitch f/x after to see if the TV was showing hot readings. It wasn't, and I was happy.

TamRa - Monday, July 25 2011 @ 12:26 AM EDT (#239173) #

Considering you use these comment sections as your own personal blog much of the time, I think you might want to try a little harder at remembering that humility.

My admitted weakness is verbosity, not arrogance. I freely admit and often that I probably know less than anyone here. Definitely less than any professional. As i have explained before, the major reason i go on so long is because I live 800 friggin miles from any other Blue jay fan. This site is not my personal blog, but it is my water cooler, my pub, my golf course. Heck, I don't have but one BASEBALL fan among my close friends, let alone Jays fans.

All you people in the GTA don't have that problem.

Combine that with my natural tendency to be long-winded and i tend to go on a bit. As with Dewey, I counsel you to resolve to ignore my posts entierly if they cause you such distress.

That's why your attempt here to condescend to me

It's fascinating that when i suggest that maybe it's a bit grandious to suppose that a good GM's choices are "idiotic" that it's ME who's being condescending.

P.S. all this is IMO

Of course. As is every post here that is not a report of a reported fact. I never objected to your opinion, I objected to the implications of the way you expressed it.

But hey, we're in dead horse territory here so I'm going to concede the floor. I'll just have to assume the next time you say "it's idiotic" what you are really saying is "based on what i can see from a distance it LOOKS idiotic" or some such. It's really not worth it to go around in circles like this.

But I'm still a bit mystified that it was such a contraversial opinion.

Mylegacy - Monday, July 25 2011 @ 01:15 AM EDT (#239175) #

TamRa - I know what it's like to live even further than 880 miles from the nearest Jay's fan - I live much further away from Toronto (the Heartbeat of civilization as they see themselves - or Hogtown as other Canadians refer to it) than you - I live in Nanaimo on Vancouver Island off the west coast - a good 3418 KM or 2124 Miles to our 'Merican Neighbo(u)rs.

As to your tendency to verbosity - may I suggest scotch, single malt - taken regularly -and copiously - from a clean(ish) glass - preferably. It cures me - er - at least it slightly improves me.

Mike Green - Monday, July 25 2011 @ 09:36 AM EDT (#239179) #

That was good. I am as optimistic as ever about Cecil.

Farrell said something about Cecil that I disagree with. He commented that when Cecil gets hard, it is because he leaves the ball up. My view is that Cecil needs to pitch up sometimes to be successful, but that he gets in trouble (as do 80% of pitchers) when he is out over the plate rather than in.

Spifficus - Monday, July 25 2011 @ 09:47 AM EDT (#239180) #

It's true that because of his breaking ball and changeup, he can use his fastball up with purpose at times. Of course, what makes that effective is being able to otherwise keep the ball down in the zone. There's a difference, though, between throwing a chase fastball up (or cutter up and in to help set up the other offerings), and leaving everything up in the zone because the arm is late or the finish isn't there (which is what Farrell is referring to, and had been his issue this year).

Mike Green - Monday, July 25 2011 @ 10:05 AM EDT (#239181) #

That is true. Farrell said that after Cecil's start against Seattle, and I felt that it was a reworking of criticisms which did not really apply.

Hodgie - Monday, July 25 2011 @ 10:11 AM EDT (#239182) #

An unfortunate reminder for the need to maintain perspective when confronted with the frustrations of a baseball season.

bpoz - Monday, July 25 2011 @ 10:19 AM EDT (#239183) #

With the trade deadline 1 week away, I was wondering if bauxites had any thoughts.

If we had the extra wild card this year:
1) The Jays MAY have spent the off season preparing for that spot being possible. They would be 4 Gm back and maybe less. IMO AA had to find out about JPA but maybe not about Lind at 1B or the experiment with Reyes. Less or no patience with 3B, that harmed us. AAA prospects had their ABs to try to earn a promotion.

2)The AL C & W have as much chance at the extra WC as to winning the division. To compete they are not forced to consider the NYY/Bos duo and so can prepare differently.

3)TB must be considered a strong contender for the extra WC but IMO #3 to NYY/Bos duo due to $ restraints. I have a wild thought that 2011 was sort of sacrificed a little for the extra WC coming into play in 2012 and beyond. They could not retain their FAs and weakened themselves by trading M Garza. If a SP gets injured they miss Garza even more. I believe Shields is a FA after this season, maybe NYY will be interested in the off season. If Friedman evaluates his 2011 chances as only OK and Shields could be a NYY in 2012 anyway then trade him now to NY and take a top pitching prospect +++. TB has to do things differently from other clubs to contend.

92-93 - Monday, July 25 2011 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#239189) #

There's nothing a RHB likes more than an inside, thigh-high, 90mph fastball. Cecil needs to work all his pitches down in the zone to be effective, as does every pitcher who can't amp up the fastball to the mid 90s with a complementary breaking ball.

92-93 - Monday, July 25 2011 @ 12:06 PM EDT (#239191) #

Meant to add - from a LHP. And Cecil has been known to tip pitches with his delivery, making it even easier for hitters to feast on fastballs if he can't get them down.

Spifficus - Monday, July 25 2011 @ 12:07 PM EDT (#239192) #

There's a difference between inner-half thigh-high and inside corner thigh-high, especially when paired with a down-and-away changeup. Of course, those are with purpose, dictated by sequence, not as get-me-overs.

Spifficus - Monday, July 25 2011 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#239193) #

The pitch-tipping was more of a concern when he held his arm back longer (the ball would be quite visible to the hitter from behind his back), potentially letting people get a look at something quick in his grip they could pick up (say, "Not much white = changeup" or "Knuckle = curve"). With the improved tempo and reduced arm swing, that shouldn't be as much of an issue.

TamRa - Monday, July 25 2011 @ 06:40 PM EDT (#239209) #

I believe Shields is a FA after this season

Not true. The reports I've seen say he's under control through 2012 (though maybe his contract is up)

checking Cott's...

He'll pass five years service time this year so there's a minimum of one more year control BUT his contract includes options through 2014 at 7, 9, and 12.

So no, not going FA for a while.

ayjackson - Monday, July 25 2011 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#239210) #

If there is a significant deal to be had by the Jays at the deadline, I would not be surprised if it included Thames in the departing package. His value has never been higher and he does not appear to be part of The Plan (TM) , with Snider and Bautista manning the corners for the next four years. As a (currently) productive LH bat with 6 years of control, he could be a key component of a package for a contending team.

Also, it just occured to me that the Rockies and Pirates are talking Iannetta; perhaps the Jays and Rockies are talking Ubaldo (D'Arnaud) simultaneously.

Spifficus - Monday, July 25 2011 @ 08:02 PM EDT (#239211) #

With Willin Rosario in their system, the Rockies might not consider D'Arnaud a priority. I'm with you on Thames, though. He's a guy I wouldn't be looking to move, but if he ends up being a significant piece in a deal for a star caliber player (ie Rasmus in some three-way machinations), I wouldn't hum and haw about it.

Mike Green - Monday, July 25 2011 @ 09:05 PM EDT (#239213) #

I'd be a lot happier if Lind was included in a deal than Thames, and I imagine that he's got a lot more perceived value despite filling the same medium-term niche.

Hodgie - Monday, July 25 2011 @ 10:19 PM EDT (#239216) #

I for one would hope that d'Arnaud is not a part of any trade discussions. While certainly not insignificant, health seems to be his only real concern. This year he has clearly distinguished himself as the best catcher in the system and in my estimation is the top position player not named Lawrie. In fact, he is likely neck and neck with Mesoraco for the title of best catching prospect in the minors. It is still a shame that he wasn't in the Futures game while Romine was.

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