Magpie, here you go: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I found them in my punctuation drawer and I'll never use them. I'm thinking you may be running low after your excited post.

Hard to watch that Pirate center fielder and not be envious. That dude is going to make a ton of cash before he's done. Probably not in Steel City, however.

Strangely enough, I have only ever found the exclamation point useful as a signifier of irony. Why is that?

Ours is a cynical generation. As for the millennials, well, they've just abandoned punctuation altogether.

That was a pretty pathetic effort by Reyes to cover first base. I hope that there's a hanging judge in the kangaroo court tonight.

Some aliens put Fred McGriff in another body. I did not recognize him, I think it's the lack of hair.

Unironic exclamation marks always strike me as transparent and phony. If a sentence naturally draws attention or emphasis to itself, ! is unnecessary. If it doesn't, ! rings false. I spent the whole top of the fourth trying to come up with an obvious exception. Didn't get anywhere. And that was one long inning...

The obvious exception is the excited utterance, where the exclamation point signifies the tone of the speech of the speaker (in wrriting), which is difficult to do and has led to the creation of an entire universe of emoticons. :-)

The thid-base coach, realizing Overbay was going to run through the two-arms up stop sign, screamed "Stop!!!!"

A segment of my client base is made up of a group of people I seldom cross paths with in regular life: earnest professionals (many long past the age where they should be jaded). They use exclamation marks frequently and sincerely. I first thought they were being ironic, but that was simply me projecting. It was initially very jarring but I now find comfort in knowing that there are pockets of the world not imbued with cynicism.

I kind of like the upside down exclamation and question marks used in Spanish.

there are pockets of the world not imbued with cynicism

Pff, yeah, like I'm going to believe that.

The unironic use of exclamation marks requires genuine emotional upheaval on the part of the author, and the conviction to post/publish before the passion deserts them to the sober judgment of their editorial faculties. Such brashness has rarely been judged kindly this past century or so.

That being said: I can't watch Corey Patterson play baseball anymore! AAAGGGGHHHHH!!!!

That being said:

Ishai, that really made me laugh (even tho I had to read it twice to fully understand what you were saying.)  (btw is the sarcastic use of exclamation marks the more accurate way to say this.  I was always taught situations are ironic, actions are sarcastic. Dewey?)

btw is the sarcastic use of exclamation marks the more accurate way to say this.  I was always taught situations are ironic, actions are sarcastic.

Yes, but when writing you are creating a situation for the reader. The exclamation marks show ironic tension between the written word and the presumed attitude of the writer. After all, the words come from someone sitting at a computer typing about baseball, not often an activity prone to outbursts of rage or joy (except when it concerns Corey Patterson or Jose Bautista). Also, common use of the word sarcasm implies a venomous intention that can confuse its meaning.

I can't watch Corey Patterson play baseball anymore!

I wonder if anyone ever taught Patterson how to play.

He was drafted out of high school and had a fantastic debut season at 19. Then he had an okay year in AA - very good for a 20-yr-old, but didn't exactly dominate - and ended up playing centre in Wrigley when he was 21.

Granted, some players have better instincts than others, and Patterson seems to have worse instincts than most, but if he'd had a more gradual ascent to the majors, perhaps he'd have developed differently. He's had oodles of raw talent, but no idea how to put it together.

Chuck,  use of exclamation marks without irony by post-menopausal age men and women is, I think, a hopeful symptom of intergenerational solidarity.  Let's face it- the millenials have a much tougher row to hoe than their parents, and are, in general terms, doing so in mostly good spirit.  So, we support them in various ways, including appropriating from their culture.  I remember my jazz age father telling me in 1970 or so that the Rolling Stones, and the Doors and Jimi Hendrix were damn good.  Ever it was so.

Nonetheless, when Reyes decided in the fourth inning that his role was to play shortstop halfway between the pitching mound and first base, my intergenerational solidarity was notably absent.  A true recounting of what I uttered at the screen would have included at least one exclamation mark.

there are pockets of the world not imbued with cynicism

Pff, yeah, like I'm going to believe that.

+1!!!!

I love it when you guys talk grammatical!   Ooooh!  And parsing, and diction, and things!

!!!! I am finding this thread odd, but in a way interesting, but I am unsure of the irony, cynicism and sarcasm!!!! In regards to !!!!

That is my opening statement to avoid hurting anyone. I am guessing at what is serious and what is not. Also there are many topics today, so here may be the best place to stray.

1) A McCutchen really is good and that is not some kind of mixed up message.
2) Snider in CF is a trial in the nature of how well can he do there. As was Lind at 1st base. Thames at RF, but LF may be better once our surplus OFs are sorted out. This and other positions are being addressed.
3) Carlos V is having such a good year. He may be over achieving. I don't know what his trade value is, he could be a good quick fix for a contender, except for IP limitations this year as a SP. Other than Romero I don't know who has earned a spot for the rest of the year & 2012's rotation. IMO the high ceiling of Morrow & Drabek will take up 2 spots in 2012 even if unearned. That leaves 2 openings for a multitude. IMO Carlos V while deserving may not be rewarded with a spot. So trade him.
4) Z Stewart!!! 3 starts for inspiration? I would like him to not burn an option, so he should come back up even if in the pen until rosters expand. I feel fairly certain that Reyes & Carlos V have IP limitations, so their starts will be available. I feel sorry for B Mills, he seems to have been forgotten.

The former college writing instructor in me is definitely thinking, "this is a wonderfully well-thought-out and evenly-discussed thread." The 21st century bloggifier in me thinks, "Tru dat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Nonetheless, when Reyes decided in the fourth inning that his role was to play shortstop halfway between the pitching mound and first base, my intergenerational solidarity was notably absent. 

Upon Reyes' apology for unwittingly inventing a new position, Lind was heard to say "ain't no thang." Not sure if this was said with a level of enthusiasm warranting an exclamation mark. I'm not even sure if he said it with an apostrophe.

!!!! I am finding this thread odd, but in a way interesting, but I am unsure of the irony, cynicism and sarcasm!!!! In regards to !!!!

bpoz, to your credit, I'm not sure you are capable of cynicism.

 

"The point is not the grammar
It's the feeling
That was certainly in my heart ..."

anyone know this reference?

Electric Carrot is Underwhelmed

  I was always taught situations are ironic, actions are sarcastic.

Hi Mr. Carrot:

Didn’t mean to ignore your invitation:  I had to have a little rest, after all that heady talk.

I try to avoid discussions of “irony”. It’s become one of those slippery terms that can mean many things to many people.  It involves some secondary, hidden, or disguised meanings behind the words.  There’s quite a bit of ‘insider chat’ here on Da Box, I think--among those in the know. The rest of us can watch, and wonder.  But Magpie and Matthew and others occasionally throw down a literary sop (for which much thanks).   The musical allusions might as well be in Sanskrit for me (maybe some are).  And comics--unless it’s Pogo or Plastic Man (and Woozy)--are long ago and far away.

I think it’s fair to say that sarcasm usually involves speech not action (and hence intonation--one reason why it’s hard to carry off online, although Anders’ comment above is a nice example).   (I can’t think at present as to how an action could be ‘sarcastic’.  Doesn’t mean it can’t, of course.)  Action *can* in fact be ironic, to those people who understand that more is going on in it than others do, as in the ‘dramatic irony’ that teachers like to talk about in plays, (where some characters are aware of things that others don’t know.)   Huge subject;  full of tangles.  Here, too, it’s best to respect da fog.

pedagogically yours,  Dewey

pedagogically yours,  Dewey

Thanks Dewey -- I happily defer to da fog.

and right Mathesond -- Underwhelmed by Sloan -- perhaps Sanskrit to more than Dewey -- but still the best song about a grammar nerd ever recorded:

She said, "You is funny"
I said, "You are funny"
She said, "Thank you"
And I said, "Never mind"

I usually notice
All the little things
One time I was proud of it
She says it's annoying

I was obsessed with the very concept of irony for quite a while. I studied Jonathan Swift with far too much attention, and it occurred to me that the best and purest irony is a kind of Invisible Sign that the reader only assumes is there, or thinks must be there, or perhaps desperately hopes is there - but, ultimately, really isn't there.

This is not the classic type of Sophoclean irony, a conspiracy that everyone is part of except the fall guy - Oedipus, say. But anyone acquainted with Swift's "A Modest Proposal" will understand. Nowhere in Swift's pamphlet - and I mean absolutely nowhere - is it even hinted that taking the children of the poor, slaughtering them, and utilizing them as food is not a sensible and humane thing to do. It is presented as a blindingly obvious way for society to proceed. The reader assumes the irony, and therefore inserts the irony into the meaning.

With some justification, I admit. None of you really thought I was actually excited about the return of Lyle Overbay. But the whole concept of this invisible sign, this kind of real yet absent communication device - occupied my mind for the longest time...

I also suspect that my obsession (and that's what it was) with Swift has something to do with my own fondness for certain typographical devices: the italic, the dash, the ellipse...

Ishai - has your TV broken, did your cable cut out, or did some other piece of technology you were using to watch the Jays suffer a technical difficulty? In any case, I'm very distressed that you were (are?) unable to continue to watch Mr. Patterson excel at baseball!

this kind of real yet absent communication device - occupied my mind for the longest time...

I wish you'd communicated this idea to me 20 years ago when I was an undergrad and writing a paper about why I thought Dr. Strangelove was an inferior piece of satire than A Modest Proposal.  After reading A Modest Proposal I just never appreciated over-the-top Peter Sellers or Jim Carrey style humor the way all my friends seemed to.

It's the absent part that I was missing in my argument.

Damn that B+ !!!!!

When it was made, Dr Strangelove may have looked more like a documentary than a satire. One can imagine some alien civilization viewing it and saying "Ah, this is how they destroyed themselves."

On the other hand, the presence of Bluebottle (playing three roles!) may have been the Satiric Sign.

You can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

the Satiric Sign.

Ummm .... how about riding a nuclear missile like it's a bucking bronco?  I like Kubrick tons -- but (like Lynch) his genius isn't normally in the nuances or the subtle bits.

how about riding a nuclear missile like it's a bucking bronco?

There's that. And the names of the characters. Jack D. Ripper... General Turgidson... Premier Kisov... Merkin Muffley.

And here I thought Dr Strangeglove was a first baseman for the Redsox many long years ago. Woe is me! :)

None of you really thought I was actually excited about the return of Lyle Overbay.


I kind of did at first.

Looking at an article that is behind the subscriber wall at Baseball Prospectus (don't have a sub so couldn't read it) I got to thinking about shortstops in the AL East. How it used to be amazing at one time but now is it still?

Avg/OBP/Slg-OPS+

Yanks: Jeter: 260/324/324-77
Sox: Lowrie: 270/319/403-97 / Scutaro 271/336/361-91
Rays: Brignac: 181/229/213-29 / Johnson 200/260/347-73
Jays: Escobar: 281/353/424-114
Orioles: Hardy: 307/369/547-151 (!) vs lifetime 99 OPS+

Seems the people at BP were off a bit in the AL East. What has happened is we have one ugly situation in Tampa, another in NY, decent in Boston, all-star in Toronto, and Jose Bautista 2010 at SS in Baltimore (in his free agent year to boot).

Thus on balance it is an even division, 2 poor SS, 2 great ones, and one mediocre situation. It is just odd that the two teams at the bottom are the ones with the best SS while 2 of the 3 at the top have horrible situations (especially in NY as they can't move Jeter off SS and are paying an arm & leg for 2-3 more years after this one).

Afterthought for Magpie (and, of course, anyone else who's interested in the matter):

Your comments on Swift’s "Modest Proposal"  reminded me of Poe’s narrators, many of whom are notoriously “unreliable”.  In fact, some are stark, raving mad.  They don’t always know that, though;  and so present their views and actions as perfectly reasonable -- of the sort any thoughtful person might exercise.  Are there any signs at all of Swift indicating the narrator’s mental state?  (I can’t find my ancient copy of MP just yet.)    Poe, like Swift, was an incorrigible satirist and hoaxter.   Cheers.