The Blue Jays have placed Jesse Litsch on the 15-day DL with right shoulder impingement, retroactive to May 19. He'll miss two turns in the rotation. Carlos Villanueva will spot start Monday at Yankee Stadium, and if he makes it through five innings there I will be hugely impressed. And rejoice, for the eight-man bullpen is in remission: Mike McCoy has been called up to take Litsch's place. McCoy should be on the Jays' bench today.
The 8-man bullpen is in remission, but I don't think it's dead -- not unless Villanueva pitches 7 innings against the Yankees anyway. With Litsch to the DL and the possibility of needing 4 or 5 relievers in the game when Villanueva starts, the Jays will soon need an 8-man pen again, in my view.
I'd like to see Brad Mills recalled to start the 2nd game that Litsch will miss. Anthopolous said very clearly yesterday that the Jays prefer to keep Villanueva in the bullpen long-term, because he's so valuable there. (And, although he didn't say it, Villanueva doesn't have a great career track record as a starter.) I don't see a reliever who should be demoted when Villanueva returns to the bullpen. Until last night, the Jays bullpen had the lowest ERA in the major leagues, and I think that's partly because it was an 8-man pen for most of the season. Reduce it to 7 relievers and you become even more dependent on Rauch and Francisco, who clearly should not be over-used.
Besides, do the Jays really need so many infielders? Now we have McCoy, Nix, McDonald, Rivera, Hill, Escobar, Encarnacion..... That's 7 infielders for 4 positions (although 2 of them are also back-up outfielders -- but Thames can also play the outfield, so there are 3 back-up outfielders on the team too). I don't see enough pinch-hitting opportunities to justify it. Bring back the 8-man pen.
The argument for a larger bench, isn't just about pinch-hitting, it's about defensive replacement as well.
There are definitely positions on the team that need that kind of backup.
There are definitely positions on the team that need that kind of backup.
The argument for a larger bench, isn't just about pinch-hitting, it's about defensive replacement as well.
There are definitely positions on the team that need that kind of backup.
I don't disagree lexomatic that the team has some shaky defensive positions, namely 1st and 3rd. However, as the bench is currently constructed, I don't see many opportunities to make defensive subs.
Assuming the bench will normally consist of Molina/McDonald/McCoy and one of Rivera/Encarnacion/Thames, the bench still lacks anyone I would trust at 1B and I would argue that the difference between Nix and McDonald/McCoy at 3rd is probably negligible.
In some ways, I would have preferred to see a true 1B called up instead of McCoy at least to have a true late-inning replacement. I understand the desire not to want to yank Cooper back and forth, but even someone like Ryan Shealy probably would be useful in the short-term until Lind gets back, 40-man issues notwithstanding.
There are definitely positions on the team that need that kind of backup.
I don't disagree lexomatic that the team has some shaky defensive positions, namely 1st and 3rd. However, as the bench is currently constructed, I don't see many opportunities to make defensive subs.
Assuming the bench will normally consist of Molina/McDonald/McCoy and one of Rivera/Encarnacion/Thames, the bench still lacks anyone I would trust at 1B and I would argue that the difference between Nix and McDonald/McCoy at 3rd is probably negligible.
In some ways, I would have preferred to see a true 1B called up instead of McCoy at least to have a true late-inning replacement. I understand the desire not to want to yank Cooper back and forth, but even someone like Ryan Shealy probably would be useful in the short-term until Lind gets back, 40-man issues notwithstanding.
Mills started yesterday so Monday would be his side session. Why not have Villanueva and Mills tandem Monday's game and then decide what to do for the second start?
Flexibility counts too. "Due to the three-man bench, we can't bat Arencibia for Patterson against Brian Fuentes, because we ran McDonald for Encarnacion last inning. We'll have to put Nix in for Arencibia to play the outfield, leaving us with nobody on the bench. What if somebody gets hurt. Can't take that chance."
It is nice to have a reliable multi-inning pitcher in a 'short' pen with only seven guys. Losing CV33 to the rotation may be a bit inconvenient, but Janssen's close, and easing Rzepczynski into that kind of role could be beneficial in the long term.
It is nice to have a reliable multi-inning pitcher in a 'short' pen with only seven guys. Losing CV33 to the rotation may be a bit inconvenient, but Janssen's close, and easing Rzepczynski into that kind of role could be beneficial in the long term.
Basically, I agree with all the above comments, in general and qualitatively. Some sort of quantitative stats need to be used.
The argument for a larger bench, isn't just about pinch-hitting, it's about defensive replacement as well. There are definitely positions on the team that need that kind of backup. Assuming the bench will normally consist of Molina/McDonald/McCoy and one of Rivera/Encarnacion/Thames, the bench still lacks anyone I would trust at 1B and I would argue that the difference between Nix and McDonald/McCoy at 3rd is probably negligible. In some ways, I would have preferred to see a true 1B called up instead of McCoy at least to have a true late-inning replacement. I understand the desire not to want to yank Cooper back and forth, but even someone like Ryan Shealy probably would be useful in the short-term until Lind gets back, 40-man issues notwithstanding. Flexibility counts too.
My take to the scenario is to single out the players whom Farrell would shuffle at different defensive positions (hence flexibility, I called it flexibility parameter, FP) and check their sum of WARs as the control sum. Or in other words, excluding the regular staters who almost always stay at one position within a game, like Joey Bats, Hill, Arencibia, Escobar etc., and putting all other players into calculation, hence maximizing the FP. Then recalculating the WAR sum with one player substituted by a true 1B from Vegas, say Shealy, and see if this second sum is better or worse than the first.
The following players are excluded: Joey Bats, Hill, Escobar, Lind, Molina, Arencibia. So EE, McCoy, JohnnyMac, Nix, Davis, Patterson, Thames, Rivera, Snider, Cooper are brought into calculation:
scenario 1) FP = 7 players (25 players minus 12 pitchers minus the 6 excluded batters) with EE, McCoy, Johnny Mac, Nix, Davis, Patterson, Rivera, Thames. (hence part of current roster)
2) FP = 7 with EE, McCoy, JohhnyMac, Nix, Davis, Patterson, Rivera, Cooper. (now with one pure 1B)
3) FP =7 with EE, McCoy, JohhnyMac, Nix, Davis, Patterson, Rivera, Shealy. (now with another 1B, assuming the Jays doesn't carry both Shealy and Cooper.)
To include the factors of shuffling people of the 40-man roster north and south of Toronto, one could expand the calculation into 40. If players are moved in or out of the 40-man roster, the calculation could expand beyond 40.
The argument for a larger bench, isn't just about pinch-hitting, it's about defensive replacement as well. There are definitely positions on the team that need that kind of backup. Assuming the bench will normally consist of Molina/McDonald/McCoy and one of Rivera/Encarnacion/Thames, the bench still lacks anyone I would trust at 1B and I would argue that the difference between Nix and McDonald/McCoy at 3rd is probably negligible. In some ways, I would have preferred to see a true 1B called up instead of McCoy at least to have a true late-inning replacement. I understand the desire not to want to yank Cooper back and forth, but even someone like Ryan Shealy probably would be useful in the short-term until Lind gets back, 40-man issues notwithstanding. Flexibility counts too.
My take to the scenario is to single out the players whom Farrell would shuffle at different defensive positions (hence flexibility, I called it flexibility parameter, FP) and check their sum of WARs as the control sum. Or in other words, excluding the regular staters who almost always stay at one position within a game, like Joey Bats, Hill, Arencibia, Escobar etc., and putting all other players into calculation, hence maximizing the FP. Then recalculating the WAR sum with one player substituted by a true 1B from Vegas, say Shealy, and see if this second sum is better or worse than the first.
The following players are excluded: Joey Bats, Hill, Escobar, Lind, Molina, Arencibia. So EE, McCoy, JohnnyMac, Nix, Davis, Patterson, Thames, Rivera, Snider, Cooper are brought into calculation:
scenario 1) FP = 7 players (25 players minus 12 pitchers minus the 6 excluded batters) with EE, McCoy, Johnny Mac, Nix, Davis, Patterson, Rivera, Thames. (hence part of current roster)
2) FP = 7 with EE, McCoy, JohhnyMac, Nix, Davis, Patterson, Rivera, Cooper. (now with one pure 1B)
3) FP =7 with EE, McCoy, JohhnyMac, Nix, Davis, Patterson, Rivera, Shealy. (now with another 1B, assuming the Jays doesn't carry both Shealy and Cooper.)
To include the factors of shuffling people of the 40-man roster north and south of Toronto, one could expand the calculation into 40. If players are moved in or out of the 40-man roster, the calculation could expand beyond 40.
The other alternative would be to call up Cecil on Monday and to run out a tandem with him.
my prediction is that the 8 man pen continues (once the rotation is whole) through the first road trip to the NL (June 17) then it will reduce to 7 for at least 10 days, and by that time the deadline will have passed to be able to deal signed free agents and i can be hoping that Dotel will be traded at the first opportunity. June 16 would work for me!
Now we have McCoy, Nix, McDonald, Rivera, Hill, Escobar, Encarnacion..... That's 7 infielders for 4 positions
If you're going to count Encarnacion and Rivera as infielders, you've got 7 players for 5 positions.
Unless maybe next you're going to tell us it'd be great to have a 9-man pen and no DH.
If you're going to count Encarnacion and Rivera as infielders, you've got 7 players for 5 positions.
Unless maybe next you're going to tell us it'd be great to have a 9-man pen and no DH.
So you're counting the DH as an infielder? Interesting theory! (Especially since the current DH, Thames doesn't even play an infield position.) But okay, let's adopt your theory, let's call the DH an infielder, but that means 8 players for 5 positions. My point remains the same.
Those extra infielders aren't as useful as the 8 relievers. Look at yesterday's game: a close see-saw battle, but not a single Jays PH was needed. Yet they needed 5 pitchers. What's the point of Mike McCoy in those types of games, which are quite typical under Farrell?
Janssen is the pitcher who would most likely be demoted if the Jays went to a 7-man bullpen. Yesterday he pitched a key inning, allowed no hits and got the win. A little more valuable than Mike McCoy on the bench, in my view.
Yes, those 4 relievers were really ridden like a pack of rented mules, labouring through 43 pitches in those long 3 innings. No way 2 or 3 relievers could have handled that gargantuan task, not when facing the mighty Houston offence.
And with only 4 players checking in the starting lineup with OPS under .620 the offence was clearly humming right along with no need to optimize in key situations. (And Jose Molina was not 1 of those 4. He's clearly turned a corner past age 35 and is unlikely to drop back towards his career .624 OPS).
"Used" is not the same as "Needed", and "Didn't use" is not the same as "Not needed".
And with only 4 players checking in the starting lineup with OPS under .620 the offence was clearly humming right along with no need to optimize in key situations. (And Jose Molina was not 1 of those 4. He's clearly turned a corner past age 35 and is unlikely to drop back towards his career .624 OPS).
"Used" is not the same as "Needed", and "Didn't use" is not the same as "Not needed".
Instead of the tedious sarcasm, why not lay out your own suggested lineup? And tell us why you think Mike McCoy is more valuable than Janssen?
A thousand pardons. I rather thought my tedious sarcasm did a tidy job of pointing out the holes in your argument.
I don't know why you're trying to put words in my mouth about McCoy vs. Janssen. That premise is fundamentally flawed. The current situation stems from imperfect roster construction - too many relievers, no legitimate starting 3rd baseman.
I don't know why you're trying to put words in my mouth about McCoy vs. Janssen. That premise is fundamentally flawed. The current situation stems from imperfect roster construction - too many relievers, no legitimate starting 3rd baseman.
I'm with China on this. Having more bullpen is better for us in our situation than having one more bench bat of dubious skill. Now this would be different if:
1) Our bullpen's seniority ranks matched the skill. But if we dropped down, we're not going to lose one of our worst relievers (Dotel or Ruasch). We'd lose Janssen who has been pitching very well.
2) Thames is a good bench bat. The rest we got, not so much. Sure one of Rivera or EE on the bench is fine, but neither of them is good as a defensive replacement. We have no hit McCoy and he is valuable in that he can play a lot of positions. But JMac can already play all the positions but one that McCoy can (not CF). And of course that leaves Molina. Between Patterson and Davis we got 2 players capable of playing CF. So yeah no need for McCoy when we already have players who can do everything he can. Once Villueneva goes back to the bullpen McCoy can go right back to the minors.
The bench should be much more capable when Snider fixes things and Lawrie comes up, especially if Thames sticks. One of EE or Rivera at the least would need to be moved or dropped to make space. (I don't think Patterson is going anywhere this year, he is going to be around all year with his flexibility in playing all 3 OF spots)
1) Our bullpen's seniority ranks matched the skill. But if we dropped down, we're not going to lose one of our worst relievers (Dotel or Ruasch). We'd lose Janssen who has been pitching very well.
2) Thames is a good bench bat. The rest we got, not so much. Sure one of Rivera or EE on the bench is fine, but neither of them is good as a defensive replacement. We have no hit McCoy and he is valuable in that he can play a lot of positions. But JMac can already play all the positions but one that McCoy can (not CF). And of course that leaves Molina. Between Patterson and Davis we got 2 players capable of playing CF. So yeah no need for McCoy when we already have players who can do everything he can. Once Villueneva goes back to the bullpen McCoy can go right back to the minors.
The bench should be much more capable when Snider fixes things and Lawrie comes up, especially if Thames sticks. One of EE or Rivera at the least would need to be moved or dropped to make space. (I don't think Patterson is going anywhere this year, he is going to be around all year with his flexibility in playing all 3 OF spots)
McCoy is not a legitimate starting 3b. JMac is more capable than him of playing that position. Regardless 3B is an area of weakness for the team, and the only 3b we have who I consider legit is Lawrie, and he won't be up for a bit more.
....The current situation stems from imperfect roster construction - too many relievers, no legitimate starting 3rd baseman....
Agreed, but many things in life are imperfect, and you haven't suggested how the Jays should solve this imperfection. Reducing the bullpen to 7 relievers will do nothing to solve the 3B problem. The problem at 3B won't be solved until Lawrie is ready. In the meantime, the Jays have been struggling to solve it with too many mediocre infielders. McDonald, Nix, Encarnacion and McCoy have all spent time at 3B this season. The Jays seem to be trying to solve the 3B issue with quantity, not quality. Instead of having four mediocre bench-calibre infielders -- none of them capable of handling 3B full-time -- they might as well demote one of them, probably McCoy. Even if the 8th reliever is only marginally useful (and personally I think the 8th reliever is more than marginally useful), it's better than a surplus backup infielder who is rarely used.
Agreed.
My solution
#1)
After glancing the PCL batting leaders, how about getting the former White Sox thirdbaseman Josh Fields from Colorado AAA, just like the way getting Nix ? Fields is a better option than Jayson Nix until Lawrie is ready and could easily be acquired just like Nix from Cleveland. Or send Nix to the Rockies for Fields.
#2)
After the success of Joey Bats with the Jays, how about picking up some Pirates at their AAA level. Annually, the Pirates receive influx of talents from other teams; this year, Brandon Wood is one. After checking their AAA roster, how about trading Nix for John Bowker the former Giants and move Joey Bats to third base. EE can platoon DH and 1B with Rivera until Lind is ready. After that, Bowker, Patterson, Rivera, Davis and 3B/RF Bautista shall be good. Of course, this option goes against the saying, " if it ain't broke, don't fix it.", on Bautista.
Of course an antithesis of all these options is why not getting a player like Brandon Wood and fix the 3B void once and for all. However, the Jays would be giving up too much value of a gamble for a fix of temporariness until Lawrie is ready. After all, the player to hold 3B shall satisfy the following criteria:
1) he is a quality or average 3B man able to establish himself in the battling lineup
2) his defense at 3B shall be at least adequate
3) his value as a player or flexibility at different defense position, shall be good enough for the Jays to move him to another position not 3B.
4) his value as for trade shall be good enough for the Jays to trade him once Lawrie is ready to take over.
JohnnyMac is okay for criteria 2) and 3); McCoy for 2,3; EE for 1 and probably 4; Nix for 2,3 and a marginal 1. And in my opinion, Josh Fields satisfies at least 1, 2, possible 4 because he is a former MLB third baseman.
My solution
#1)
After glancing the PCL batting leaders, how about getting the former White Sox thirdbaseman Josh Fields from Colorado AAA, just like the way getting Nix ? Fields is a better option than Jayson Nix until Lawrie is ready and could easily be acquired just like Nix from Cleveland. Or send Nix to the Rockies for Fields.
#2)
After the success of Joey Bats with the Jays, how about picking up some Pirates at their AAA level. Annually, the Pirates receive influx of talents from other teams; this year, Brandon Wood is one. After checking their AAA roster, how about trading Nix for John Bowker the former Giants and move Joey Bats to third base. EE can platoon DH and 1B with Rivera until Lind is ready. After that, Bowker, Patterson, Rivera, Davis and 3B/RF Bautista shall be good. Of course, this option goes against the saying, " if it ain't broke, don't fix it.", on Bautista.
Of course an antithesis of all these options is why not getting a player like Brandon Wood and fix the 3B void once and for all. However, the Jays would be giving up too much value of a gamble for a fix of temporariness until Lawrie is ready. After all, the player to hold 3B shall satisfy the following criteria:
1) he is a quality or average 3B man able to establish himself in the battling lineup
2) his defense at 3B shall be at least adequate
3) his value as a player or flexibility at different defense position, shall be good enough for the Jays to move him to another position not 3B.
4) his value as for trade shall be good enough for the Jays to trade him once Lawrie is ready to take over.
JohnnyMac is okay for criteria 2) and 3); McCoy for 2,3; EE for 1 and probably 4; Nix for 2,3 and a marginal 1. And in my opinion, Josh Fields satisfies at least 1, 2, possible 4 because he is a former MLB third baseman.
Anthopoulos and Farrell appear to agree with me, even if others don't. McCoy has been demoted, Luis Perez called up.
CF, we'll see if Perez is here after tomorrow night. My sense is that it probably will be a one-night gig.
McCoy is not a legitimate starting 3b. JMac is more capable than him of
playing that position. Regardless 3B is an area of weakness for the
team, and the only 3b we have who I consider legit is Lawrie, and he
won't be up for a bit more.
it's times like this i cast a wistful gaze upon Eric Chavez...
There is no major league option to improve our 3B situation, on any team. And Fields is the only reasonably good fit on the minor league level (i.e. a guy at a presumably affordable price who isn't the sort of person who'll block Lawrie over the long run)
I suggest we trade Roenicke for him :D
it's times like this i cast a wistful gaze upon Eric Chavez...
There is no major league option to improve our 3B situation, on any team. And Fields is the only reasonably good fit on the minor league level (i.e. a guy at a presumably affordable price who isn't the sort of person who'll block Lawrie over the long run)
I suggest we trade Roenicke for him :D
I like the L Perez/McCoy switch because you use your 25th roster spot as you see fit. Then after tonight, Perez can go back down & maybe Cooper or someone can come back depending on how much the pen was used.
I see this as being creative with what you have available for a 25th spot.
I see this as being creative with what you have available for a 25th spot.
Talking about player transaction, does anyone know what happens to Curtis Thigpen. He seems to retire from baseball. Eric Chavez is on the DL yet again; as for the Jays they need 3B help for short term and instantly. Chavez's history on the DL doesn't fit the bill at all. Basically, what you see is what you get from Chavez, injury and DL membership notwithstanding. I would rather hand EE some playing time: at least age is on EE's side.
Ooops, I would have adopted the playful words fo TamRa:
... it's about time to gaze upon Chavez and EE....
... it's about time to gaze upon Chavez and EE....
Another interesting lineup tonight from the spinning Wheel-o-Rama of ever-changing lineups: Escobar is batting clean-up, Davis at leadoff, Hill batting 6th, Encarnacion batting 9th.
Incidentally, Escobar hasn't had a single plate appearance in the clean-up position since 2009. And he's only had 18 plate appearances in his entire career in the 4th slot.
I hope Adam Lind comes back soon.
I think we all hope Lind comes back soon. But I like tonight lineup which links up the better hitting talents of the team at the heart of the order (3,4,5,6) with not much pressure on Arencibia to keep improving. Of course it will change when Lind is back and probably bat Escobar, Hill and Rivera at 5,6 and 7.
does anyone know what happens to Curtis Thigpen. He seems to retire from baseball.
I believe he has retired. I don't know what he's doing after his baseball career, but I think he retired a season or two after being dealt to Oakland.
I believe he has retired. I don't know what he's doing after his baseball career, but I think he retired a season or two after being dealt to Oakland.