Napoli is a 2.7 win player (Fangraphs WAR).

Francisco is a 1.1 win player.

They are both arbitration eligible, I think Napoli has an extra year of control.

Francsico was paid $3.3m last season so the salary gap is not huge, unless you are trying to pinch pennies.

So there has to be more coming back, right?

Maybe Josh Hamilton is coming here! ;D

Francisco can throw strikes with things other than baseballs.  Remember this?

This is further evidence, perhaps the most compelling to date, in support of the proposition that the chief object of the Jays recent roster moves has been to dump salary. 

AA has been doing a tremendous job of building future roster flexibility but as Jays fans and Rogers' content consumers we need to hold parentco. to account  with regard to the sums allocated to the player payroll.

2011 will be a fine season for the Jays' balance sheet but won't be as interesting or entertaining for Jays fans as 2010 I suspect.

I'll think about it...

I never read any major media outlet speculate that either one of those two players would be traded. When have you ever heard of a sign and trade in baseball? They happen in basketball because of the incomprehensible salary cap rules.

To answer the question, there are restirctions, IIRC. Newly signed free agents cannot be traded until June 15, unless they consent.

Disappointing - Francisco is a really good addition to the pen, but I was looking forward to having Napoli on the team.  Seems likely that the Jays really didn't want Napoli, and just moved him to Texas to save the salary and get what they could in the way of a good asset in return.  I certainly think Napoli has more value as a player than Francisco.  I would imagine the cash coming probably has something to do with the arb hearing, e.g. if Francisco wins, the Rangers will pick up half of the amount over the team's offer or some such thing.

I just looked at the video of AA discussing the Wells trade, and yes, you can see he didn't even want to talk about Napoli or Rivera, dodging the question the first time it was asked, and then saying they didn't know yet where the new players fit in when the question was repeated. 

Rotoworld says that Francisco should be the closer over Dotel or Rauch, and I would probably agree with that, but the Jays have to be careful how they use Francisco.  He has not been very good at all with no days off between appearances.  On 0 days of rest, his career WHIP is about 1.50 and his career ERA is over 6.00.   With Rauch and Dotel, they have options and could use one of the other guys when Francisco has just pitched the previous day.  I thought maybe Francisco's spliys might show he has been hurt by pitching in Texas, but there really isn't a lot of difference in his career home/road numbers.

Not too miffed at losing Napoli if this is something they felt they had to do as part of the Wells deal.  Heck, they could have given Napoli away and I still would have been elated about the Wells deal.

The bullpen logjam needs to be addressed - what have they got now, Francisco, Dotel, Rauch, Frasor, Camp, Janssen, Villanueva, Purcey, Carlson and maybe a starting candidate like Zep or Stewart.  That's 9 or 10, plus Cordero if he recovers, plus Ledezma, Roenicke, Farina etc. for AAA depth. They should be able to turn somebody into an asset.

Mike D: 

Agreed, my choice of words may not have been optimal but one must agree that payroll savings has certainly been a constant in each deal and is a clear priority. 

It is also becoming clear that 2011 competitiveness is not an organizational priority. 

I don't have an issue with that in the least so long as we continue to acquire assets which will benefit our future and that we build up our payroll when the appropriate opportunities arise. 

In terms of public relations AA has been careful not to sell out the clubs chances in 2011 and the real point of my earlier post is essentially that fans should not put much stock into such representations from the club. 

2011 wins and losses likely aren't even on AA's performance evaluation - perhaps rightfully so. 

1. As a catcher, Napoli is decent offensively.  (but not so good defensively) , but as a first baseman, his numbers are not that good.  And I imagine he is not that good at first base either. 

2. You can never have enough good arms in the pen.  Fransisco, Dotel and Rauch are all better than Gregg.  They just need a LHP to replace Downs...  That might be difficult.  The good news is that all three are servicable parts that could be moved during the year to get more prospects.

3. The Jays need to see what JPA can do.  They have a couple other catchers waiting in the wings.  JPA needs a chance to show what he can do.

4. 1BDH are not hard to pick someone up for cheap with simular stats as Napoli.  I still think(or hope) the Jays are going to sign Vlady as the DHbench bat. 

I too saw usefulness in a year or 2 of Napoli, but please some of you need to get a grip!  AA was being canonized by one and all (well 99% anyway) on the weekend and now he is taking flak for a Napoli-Francisco trade? I thought we all trusted the man by now.  I know I do and i expect St. Alex to make a few more moves yet.  If you don't think a Bautista long term contract is wise, when would you get the most assets back for him, now or at the trade deadline? The answer is NOW so let's hold our breath and see what happens. The puzzle pieces are still falling. Perhaps he can finish up in time to help the Leafs at the trade deadline. On 2nd thought with their managerial mess, you need God, not a mere saint!  

Does anybody else find it ironic that the Leafs and Jays have reverse philosophies which seem to go against the grain? I.e you have one team guaranteed sellouts and another with definite attendance problems. Which one would you think would look to the future and which one would you expect to trade the future away eg. 2 first round draft choices??  Strange days indeed Mr. Morrison.  

• A much stronger bullpen - can there be any doubt that AA has achieved that by now?  [I cannot imagine that he will not start the season with at least Francisco, Rauch, Camp, Purcey, Villanueva, and his pick of the rest, say Rzepczynski and Janssen).  Yet he achieved this without paying the exorbitant FA salaries that so many other teams were forced to pay!  And while picking up the draft picks that Downs and Gregg provided to the team?  And with more relief pitcher trading chips in his basket than he will possibly need in April, likely resulting in some additional gains when he finds a new home for the least essential of  the following:  Dotel, Frasor, Carlson, Roenicke, Cordero. 
  
• More small ball capacity, including speed and aggressiveness on the basepaths, leading to a greater potential to score runs, once someone gets on.  Davis brings that possibility for sure and with Wells gone, there is more playing time in which Davis can shine.  He will likely be supported by either Patterson or Mastroianni, either of whom also have great wheels.  That upgrade cost us two relievers
  
• Increased OBP - here he has not yet advanced meaningfully, so we will have to wait and see on that.  I have some confidence that more focus on this by the Jays' coaches could close that gap
• Retaining the opportunity  to test the potential in JPA and in Lind, at catcher and 1B respectively.  While these required no genius to fulfill, he was not forced to sacrifice these goals to meet other off-season objectives
  

• The acquisition of Lawrie gave him a future star for his infield, after dealing from his greatest strength - strong starting pitching.  Is that starting pitching much worse off, given that Marcum has been replaced by Drabek, and that last year's fifth starter committee will be filled by one of Stewart, Litsch and Rzep?  At most, this yields a limited decline, if the other three continue to develop
• The switcheroo with Edwin E, who left town a 3B-man and returned a DH, for a much smaller annual salary
• The acquisiiton of a mitful of high draft picks for 2011 through the contract renewals he did not sign, the short-term snagging of Olivo etc.
  
• And, of course, the dramatic freeing up of resources due to the Wells trade, where his above average batting will not be fully replaced by Rivera, or whomever we trade Rivera for

If Francisco is as good as some here are saying, and be a great closer for such a cheap price, then I can see the logic in the deal.  If he's just another bullpen arm, then I don't like it.  Decent (and I mean decent, not great) bullpen arms are relatively easy to come by and I would rather have a solid bat like Napoli's.

FWIW, North Texas media LOVE this deal for the Rangers.

On the other hand, when I read Jamey's announcement of the deal, my immediate thoughtt was, "Makes sense, but the Rangers gave up too much."

Frankie is a closer who lost his job, deservedly, to High-heat Feliz.. If he closes for the Jays in 2011, mark down 35 saves, easy.

As a catcher, Napoli is decent offensively.

Napoli's career OPS+ is 118. Last year, it was 113. The average MLB catcher's was 93. Decent doesn't seem an adequate enough word to reflect this gap. Would that the whole Blue Jay lineup be filled with such decent hitters.

Both teams said there was no cash involved. And we know that cash was definitely involved in the Ranger trade so why would it not be announced in the Angel trade? My guess is that the $5 million thrown into the deal is Juan Rivera.

There's a link up on mlbtr stating AA said today he wants EE to play everyday and that the amount of cash trading hands is less than a mil. It's under the section talking about the Jays wanting to bolster the bench.

Like a lot of others here I think there's more to come anyway.

AA was on the Fan this evening.  He said that he was finished dealing for now other than adding minor league free agents or a bench player.  The Jays did re-sign Jason Lane today.  AA also said that teams were getting ready to head to spring training and see what they had, and at this stage were reluctant to deal.

With regard to Francisco he said relievers and starters are very hard to trade for in-season so the pitching depth was important to him.

Why would you assume that?

He could be saying no money changed hands in the trade and still be accurate, having sent the $5 million to the Angels outside of the trade. However, Seeing as he's denied it again, I'll take Anthopolous at his word in that no money changed hands in the trade, however you want to characterize the time when the money was supposedly sent to Los Angeles.

It still doesn't follow that Heyman was not being serious or being tongue-in-cheek when he made his tweet.

• The Yankees keep being described by broadcasters as being a super patient team, taking a lot of pitches per at bat, a major reason for their games to go on as long as they do.  Question - is this at all due to team philosophy and coaching, or were these guys all chosen for their historical ability to walk a lot and are just fulfilling what was already known about them?
• Last year, the Jays hitters were said to be heavily under the influence of their hitting coach, leading to a major reliance on slugging, even at the expense of OBP.  Questions - is that true, or would this collection of batters have swung for the fences anyway?  If coaching did have an impact, is slugging easier to teach than walking?  Seems like it might be the other way around!  If the Jays change the coaching emphasis this year, will that make an important difference?  Does the history of this particular collection of players = destiny?
  
• Michael McDade goes to the Arizona Fall League and tries to show that he can lower his strikeouts and up his BB.  His ability to make this adjustment is seen as pivotal to his future prospects as a Jay.  Presumably this is a realistic possibility for someone of his age (21).   Questions:  How likely is it for someone who is 25, 30 or even older to make a big leap forward in OBP, due to greater focus and skilled coaching?

Yeah, this move doesn't make sense from a value standpoint. A clear loss...Not at all what I've come to expect from AA.

A clear loss? Would you care to justify? Because I see the Blue Jays acquiring a valuable reliever for a guy who couldn't have possibly had any trade value if the baseball world's interpretation of Vernon Wells' value was accurate. Let's remember Napoli was moved for a player who cleared waivers last August and Francisco pitched like a Type A RP.

This trade reminds me of the Gose for Wallace swap with all the initial whining. I trust AA that Francisco has more value to this team than Napoli because he is the only one with a clear insight into what the market is. I'm happy that AA has his players he wants and targets them regardless of the perceived cost to fans, be it a Marcum, Wallace, or Napoli. 

Please don't forget about salary and cash involved in the trade. It's Napoli + cash (+ higher arb salary) for Francisco (+ lower arb salary)

Looking at Napoli vs. Fracisco there is a loss in value, but you have to add money (that the Jays will be using come June) and opportunity cost as GM AA said you can't acquire pitchers easily during the season.

Point 3 speaks to why the tweet would be true, as well. Why would he tweet something that wasn't serious and which has been picked up by many media outlets? Most reporters are pretty clear when they are joking and when they are not for this very reason. Why would he make an ambiguous tweet that people could interpret at being accurate and sully his reputation?

It's far more likely that the Jays paid Vernon $5 million owing on his signing bonus, as was suggested up thread, and that they don't interpret that as sending any money to Anaheim and Heyman chooses to characterize it that way.

they could have traded him (and his potential for 2 compensation picks) for more than a single reliever.

Really, I can't see any point in selling low as they did for Frank Francisco.

The single reliever you speak of is 11th on the RP xFIP leaderboard from 2008-2010. He's a very good reliever who provides a skill desperately needed in the Jays bullpen, the ability to get LHB out. And he's already a Type A FA so he brings more potential for 2 compensation picks, considering he will make at most 4.85m in 2011.

AA told EE & Lind they are going to get regular AB, so there really was no room for Napoli unless the team intended on trading Arencibia before seeing what he's capable of or were willing to move E5 back to 3B. I'm not even a JPA fan but I can understand the problem with having a Napoli around - you just repeat the mistakes of last year and stunt the development of Arencibia, who needs to get comfortable at the MLB level. The Jays have the luxury of at least a year to see what they have in JPA and shouldn't waste that away unless an opportunity presents itself in trade to capitalize on his 2010 PCL season. Even if D'Arnaud, Jimenez, or Perez one day pass JPA on the depth chart there's value in having homegrown bench options at controllable, affordable salaries.

Liking this move has nothing to do with worshiping at the altar of AA and everything to do with the Jays picking up a cheaper player who fills a need without blocking younger talent. If we had loads of left-handed relief options it might be a different story. If this kind of move gives the Jays more money to play around with in a talent-rich draft, all the better.

If Cot's is to be believed (and Cot's usually is very accurate), the Jays are paying $5 million this year for Wells, regardless of whether that money is a signing bonus payment or part of his 2011 salary.

As I said, Heyman's reputation speaks to the likelihood that the tweet is true. There was no sign in the tweet that it was a joke and it's been picked up by several places, which indicates they also did not see it as a joke. I don't even know what the joke would be in that tweet. Anyhow, like you, it doesn't change my evaluation of the trade; I'm just curious as to what the accurate report is.

Seriously, what good GM would think Youkilis and Pedrios didn't have a high upside?
Give your head a shake.

Sounds like you've been shaking your head a bit too much.  Youkilis was drafted in the 8th round as a college senior.  You don't get much lower upside than that.  Pedroia put up college numbers that you would think would have made him a high 1st round pick but he fell to the second because he was considered more of a scrappy/dirt bag kind of player with limited upside.

Those teams know to lay off the change up and just sit fastball against Marcum. The book is out on him now. Going to the NL is very advantageous for him as those hitters haven't really seen him.

I wouldn't want to bet that Marcum would be more like the first 17 starts than the last ten.

Those teams know to lay off the change up and just sit fastball against Marcum.

At their peril.  Marcum can throw a change up for a strike seemingly at will.

All things being equal, the best pitches are those coming in the fastest - best chaneup since 2005, by value per 100 pitches (fangraphs)

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=500&type=7&season=2010&month=0&season1=2005

Marcum stands out as as soft thrower at the top of the list (500 IP threshold), which only makes it more impressive. I think some are confusing "Marcum doesn't have the stuff to handle the best hitters" with "the best hitters will get you a lot more often, no matter who you are or what you throw".

Who and for what cost? The team is not going to get a reliable 2.5-3 WAR player for $4.75M on the free agent market. Consider for a moment that Johhny Damon just signed for $5.25M after posting a robust 1.9 WAR last season. I would also be surprised if many teams would be willing to part with something more valuable in a trade for the 32 year old Frasor than the 28 year old Kouzmanoff, a player that has posted an average 2.7 WAR over the last 4 seasons with good defense. He is obviously not going to solve the team's OBP woes but if healthy upgrades the infield defense and seems to represent a reasonable stop gap measure to me. The only other consideration I see in making the trade is whether a year or two of Kouzmanoff now is more valuable than the potential draft picks, if there are any, that Frasor might return next off-season.

The more I consider the 3-way trade, I am surprised that Oakland would consider it as it is questionable whether they improve their team replacing Kouzmanoff with Figgins whose is 4 years older with a salary that is almost twice as much. Oakland must believe that Figgins is the 6.1 WAR player from 2008 and not the roughly 3 WAR player the rest of his career suggests.

RE: Geoff ...   "Would be more interesting to get Figgins on the team."

      I agree with Geoff.   Figgins would bring three attributes that seem to fit with the new Jay mantra ... speed, OB% and versatility .

      What would it take ?  What do the Jays have as 'surplus to requirements' or players who no longer fit the new prototype .   I would venture that  Rivera, Frasor and now , possibly Hill fall under that criteria . Hill to hometown Oakland , Kouzmanof and one of Frasor/Rivera to Seattle ?  Could Hechevarria handle 2nd and Mastroianni 4th OF ?   I suppose if AA can trade VW's contract , anything is possible ?