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The Blue Jays have signed Jon Rauch to a one-year contract at $3.5 million. There is a team option for 2012 for $3.75 million.

I was one of several Bauxites to suggest in November and December that Rauch was a name the Jays should target this offseason. While his need is less clear with the signing of Dotel and the trade for Villanueva, the price and terms are quite reasonable.

This move seems to solidify the bullpen on Opening Day, as the team will likely break camp with Dotel, Rauch, Villanueva, Frasor, Camp, Janssen and Purcey. Names like Roenicke, Carlson, Ledezma, Richmond, R. Lewis, Abreu and the others will likely have to wait for inevitable injuries or potential trades to pitch for the Jays in 2011.

Rauch and Roll | 132 comments | Create New Account
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uglyone - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 04:25 PM EST (#228814) #
It's a nice deep 'pen now, with 6 dependable relievers and a 7th spot for Purcey or one of the kids to fill, but it's really begging for one clear closing candidate.

Now would be a great time for a kid like Stewart or Farina to step up a la Daniel Bard for us.

And even without that clear closing candidate, it still lacks a guy to go to against tough lefties.
melondough - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 04:26 PM EST (#228815) #

I really like this move.  Solid k to BB ratio and although considered a fly ball pitcher he has only given up 15 homers over the past 200 IP.  Great article posted on the processreport.com site just yesterday http://theprocessreport.com/2011/01/16/why-jon-rauch-could-be-the-man-of-the-rays-hour/ which I have pasted below (I hope this is permissible give that above I have given credit to the author):

"Brian Fuentes appears to Oakland-bound, which leaves one more relatively big-named reliever on the market. That reliever is Jon Rauch, who Tommy briefly mentioned last week. The Rays reportedly have interest in Rauch, which should shock no one, and I would offer the chances of him winding up here as decent if only because there are few closer jobs available.

Rauch is an odd bird. He once served as the ace of the U.S. Olympic team and had issues with injuries throughout the minors. A Google Image search returns evidence of Rauch’s myriad of tattoos (including at least two on his neck and one that runs down his spine), a goatee that gives Matt Garza pause, shaggy hair, a downright creepy mug shot, and a few side-by-side comparisons of the 6’11” Rauch and shorter players.

He broke into the majors as a 23-year-old with the Chicago White Sox as a starting pitcher. Eventually the Montreal Expos converted him to relief and he spent his time with the Washington Nationals until heading to Arizona in 2008 in a midseason trade. Rauch again switched teams in 2009, this time heading to Minnesota, where he spent the last season and a half.

Now he’s a relatively obscure free agent coming off a strong season as a late inning reliever with a playoff team. Using xFIP to evaluate Rauch appears to be worthless. He’s a tall dude who gets a lot of flyballs perhaps not by his choice, but his home run per flyball rate is less than 8% for his career and right around 7.5% over the last three seasons.

His BABIP since 2008 is .310 despite 14% of his flyballs being of the infield variety (i.e. auto outs) which seemed unusual, but Jonathan Papelbon holds essentially the same BABIP and infield fly rate (.306 and 13.6%) which should ease the concerns. Rauch’s ERA and FIP since 2008 have been nearly identical (3.66 and 3.64) and not too far off from Kerry Wood (3.55 and 3.43) who signed the baseball equivalent of a sweetheart deal with the Chicago Cubs earlier this offseason.

Rauch may not be Rafael Soriano, but he’s not hittable either. For their careers, a lower percentage of Rauch’s hits allowed have gone for extra bases, while only 0.3% more plate appearances wound up going for two or more. With the exception of a weird 2009, Rauch’s career marks against righties (.238/.280/.372) mostly stand true to form. The same can be said about his career line against lefties (.255/.328/.417) that’s not perfect by any means, but it should play up better in the ninth inning than Octavio Dotel."

Alex Obal - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 04:27 PM EST (#228816) #
Rauch by the numbers in 2010: 57.2 innings 18.8% K, 5.7% BB, 1.2% HR, 3.12 ERA (21 saves!), 33% GB.

He gets a ton of popups, which accounts for the low HR rate for an extreme flyball pitcher. It'll be interesting to see how that plays in the AL East. Presumably it's easier to throw fastballs past people in the midwest.
melondough - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 04:35 PM EST (#228817) #

Solid k to BB ratio and although considered a fly ball pitcher he has only given up 15 homers over the past 200 IP

Sorry my mistake - actually 15 homers allowed over the last 150IP

Thomas - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 04:35 PM EST (#228818) #
It's a nice deep 'pen now, with 6 dependable relievers and a 7th spot for Purcey or one of the kids to fill, but it's really begging for one clear closing candidate.

I think Farrell will anoint a closer, probably Dotel, at some point during spring training. Having pitchers of roughly equal ability doesn't mean that there is a lack of a clear closer. There is a lack of clarity in bullpen roles if that is the way the manager choses to manage the bullpen and there is a clear closer if the manager decides there will be one.

I think the Jays will want a lefty in the bullpen and Purcey is the leading candidate, by a good margin, for the last spot.

Mike Green - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 04:37 PM EST (#228819) #
His HR/fly rate was particularly low last year, but his BABIP was very high for a pitcher who gets so many popups.  His career ERA is 3.71, and a reasonable projection for his performance going forward in the AL East is probably a tick more than that.  Meh.

I am more interested in the team's number for Bautista.  I found the National Post story on the likely result of the process unintentionally funny.  My bet is that the team comes in with a higher number than the story suggested will be the eventual result.  We shall see. 

92-93 - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 04:46 PM EST (#228820) #
Excellent signing with no downside. It would be a surprise if the Jays broke camp with only 1 LH RP though.
92-93 - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 04:47 PM EST (#228821) #
I thought the 7.5m figure given was the exact # the Blue Jays should be offering. They'd win.
CeeBee - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 05:02 PM EST (#228822) #
There should be some serious competition for the last couple of bullpen slots for sure. I think Carlson and Purcey both have a pretty good shot at making the team unless they pitch pretty bad in the spring.
uglyone - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 05:03 PM EST (#228823) #
Rauch's strange HR/FB numbers mean that his FIP has always looked much better than his xFIP over his career, so I'm not sure which one would be more accurate. He's seemed pretty consistent with his ability to maintain those kind of HR/FB ratios so it looks more like a skill than luck I think.

anyways, here's how our bullpen looks with FIP:


Player (Age): Career Relief IP + Relief FIP (Best FIP of last 2yrs / Worst FIP of last 2yrs)

RP O.Dotel (37): 519.0ip, 3.63FIP (3.88/4.20)
RP J.Frasor (33): 418.2ip, 3.73FIP (2.99/3.31)
RP J.Rauch (32): 421.0ip, 3.79FIP (2.94/3.88)
RP C.Janssen (29): 158.0ip, 3.81FIP (3.67/3.85)
RP C.Villanueva (27): 275.1ip, 3.89FIP (3.60/3.74)
RP S.Camp (35): 422.0ip, 4.20FIP (4.03/4.16)
RP D.Purcey (29): 34.0ip, 3.67FIP (3.67/3.67)


Rauch is sort of a bigger Jason Frasor, without the fear of save situations.
sam - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 05:05 PM EST (#228824) #
I agree with all the previous comments. By my guesstimation, the Jays could be in a similar situation next year with draft picks if these guys pitch well and walk. We could have a 'B' picks coming in for Dotel, Rauch, and Frasor. I really like the moves AA has made this offseason.
Thomas - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 05:17 PM EST (#228825) #
For those who think the team will have two lefties in the bullpen, which right-hander do you think will not make the team?
92-93 - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 05:24 PM EST (#228826) #
They'll use Janssen's option to make him the 8th RP in the unlikely event the other 6 guys + 2nd LHP (Rzepcynski? Carlson?) are all healthy and ready to go.
Shaker - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 05:44 PM EST (#228828) #
Frasor (+cash?) will be traded AFTER his arb has been settled.
Alex Obal - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 05:48 PM EST (#228829) #
Is there a good reason the Jays couldn't have used this $3.5M to sign a top-shelf prospect instead? (I'm ignorant of how MLB finances work, but if you offered say Rauch + $3M to the Twins for Miguel Jean Sano, they would probably laugh at you.)
Thomas - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 05:56 PM EST (#228830) #
I didn't think Janssen had an option left. If that's the case, I can see the argument for that scenario, although I still think he breaks camp with team over Carlson everything else being equal. Villanueva and Frasor both do not have noticeable platoon splits and can be used against left-handed batters relatively effectively.

In response to Alex's question, I could be incorrect, but I was under the impression that major league and minor league payrolls were considered separate and distinct expenses on the balance sheet. It is not as simple as being able to take $3 million from a cheque for X amount and choosing to spend it on either Sano or Dotel/Rauch. The minor league payroll was set separately and fluctuated based on the available talent and a team's likely draft position (such as Washington with regards to Strasburg or Harper), but did not vary significantly based on money not spent signing free agents.
Mike Green - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 06:42 PM EST (#228831) #
The separation of payroll budgets into minor and major league components (which has apparently been prevalent in MLB) always struck me as terribly inefficient.  Somehow I doubt that the Red Sox and Rays operate this way any more.
92-93 - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 06:48 PM EST (#228833) #

Is there a good reason the Jays couldn't have used this $3.5M to sign a top-shelf prospect instead?

Under JP I would have said the exact same thing, but there's been nothing to suggest that money has gotten in the way of anything AA wanted to do on the international FA market. In a roundabout way the Jays ARE using this 3.5m to sign a prospect - they are just getting a year of service from Rauch in the process.

And can you even get a top-shelf prospect for 3.5m? That's what Cardona cost the Jays, whereas Hechavarria took over 8m guaranteed and obviously Chapman was almost 10x that. I haven't heard anybody refer to Cardona at this moment as a "top-shelf prospect".

Alex Obal - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 06:57 PM EST (#228834) #
The top international FA this year according to Baseball America was Esteilon Peguero, who went to the Mariners for $2.9M.

Cardona went to the Jays for $2.8M (is there some additional cost I'm forgetting which explains why his bonus is effectively actually $3.5M?).

With Rauch, you're paying $3.5M + the buyout + the bonus for the guy you draft next year with the compensation pick, which will probably be an extra $1M or so.

The split major/minor league budgets strikes me problematic because it implies that the owner is the person who decides what proportion of the total money spent on talent should go to each area. You'd think the GM would have a better idea.
92-93 - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 07:11 PM EST (#228835) #
I didn't mean to be specific on Cardona - yes, the 2.8m seems correct. My larger point was that top-shelf prospects don't cost 3.5m anymore, and Peguero is proof of that - he's nowhere near the top of Seattle's prospect lists.

I don't see how split budgets implies that the amount allocated to each department is out of the GM's control. I would hope AA & Beeston arrive at that together.

When confronted with 2 options:

1) Adonis Cardona for 2.8m
2) 1 season of Rauch + Aaron Sanchez for 4.6m

I prefer the latter if I can't have both, and the Blue Jays can. Also, there's potential value to 2) that is hard to substantiate - having more picks in a draft lowers the leverage of each early pick in negotiations, and there's also the potential that Rauch brings the Blue Jays a better prospect than Cardona who is closer to the majors and won't take 5+ years to develop. Somebody like Wilson Ramos who was moved for Matt Capps.
sam - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 07:26 PM EST (#228836) #
Well put 92-93. This is a good signing for the Jays on a number of fronts.
Alex Obal - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 07:28 PM EST (#228837) #
Yeah, I guess there is always the chance he pitches like Dan Wheeler and gets traded for something nice, since his value includes the compensation pick. I hadn't thought of that.

He just gives you so few marginal wins for the money, unless you really value stability in the bullpen. And he's giving you those few marginal wins in a year when you're unlikely to contend (it'll be a different story if the Jays bring in Manny etc., or next year when the Jays sign Pujols). Say what you will about international FA rankings, but I can't imagine Rauch being a better expected value proposition than any highly ranked international FA, especially a bat. That's where the cheapest superstar talent is. If he busts he busts.
Alex Obal - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 07:43 PM EST (#228838) #
Also, say what you will about WAR, but:

There's value in compensation picks, especially if you pick well and invest in developing them, but the name of the game is marginal wins. (Would be interesting to see the range of WARs for each pick rather than just the trendline, I'll get on that...)

I'd also be curious to see a chart like this for FA signing bonuses, or BA rankings which might be good for a laugh. Can't find one offhand...

melondough - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 08:04 PM EST (#228839) #

According to Associated Press Janssen signed for $1.095M.  I guess that's a decent deal for him not sure how well spent it will be for Toronto.  It seems as though Janssen will never be better than average but then again so is his salary in baseball terms.

TamRa - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 08:06 PM EST (#228840) #
I like this signing but it makes me like the Dotel signing even less.

There are a lot of competent to good relievers here who largely duplicate each other. Not a bad thing by itself unless you are overcrowded.

I think Rauch is the closer, not Dotel, because of the splits.

But you now have a depth chart that looks someting like this:

RH:
Rauch
Dotel
Frasor
Camp
Janssen
Villianueva

Roenicke
Cordero - i
McGowan - i
Richmond*
Stewart*
Farina
Ray

LH:
Purcey
Zep
Carlson
Mills
Lewis

If we assume a rotation of RickRo, Morrow, Cecil, Litsch, and Drabek...and the bolded guys above are obvious candidates for the 'pen, then you either have an 8th reliever, or only one lefty, plus:

Roenicke becomes the Accord of 2011, buried  in the depth chart and stuck in Vegas;
Zep potentially is blocked in both the rotation and the 'pen while the clock ticks for Stewart to overtake him for the former which is a criminal waste of his abilities IMO, this applies to a much lesser degree to Mills too, who might be a fine LH reliever;
If Cordero or (less likely) McGowan shows themselves major league ready - we can't take advantage because there's no slot (barring multiple new injuries);
If Farina or Stewart are ready in, say, July, there's a potential log-jam blocking them as well;

I know I know, "you can never have too much pitching"  but if everyone is healthy at the end of March, I'd be on the phone trying to trade a pitcher or two - if not then then absolutely in July.

To repeat - I LIKE signing Rauch, and I know I was puzzled over a couple of moves last year that turned out well, but I just don't grok the Dotel signing.




Dave Till - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 08:18 PM EST (#228841) #
I was hoping that the Jays would sign one more reliever. They did. All is well.

Is he the largest player to ever play major league baseball? He's listed at 6'11" and 290 in Baseball Reference. Wow.
Mike Green - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 08:21 PM EST (#228842) #
but I just don't grok the Dotel signing

You see what happens on Blue Monday?  First, you start thinking about Rick Monday, the flag and Steve Rogers.  Then, you get a whiff of mylegacy's finest single malt over the interwebs, and before you know it, you don't grok anything. 

I do agree with the overall sentiment.  I really do not see the advantage in having all of Dotel, Frasor, Villanueva and Rauch around at significant cost, unless you are making a serious effort to compete in 2011 and you are spending enough to have the everyday lineup that can make this a realistic possibility.  You may get a compensatory pick or two out of it in 2012, if the system is still around then, but the economics don't really work as a whole on a long-term basis.
greenfrog - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 08:45 PM EST (#228843) #
I like the signing, but wouldn't Dotel and Rauch be likely to accept arbitration after 2011? I mean, they would presumably be in line for around $4M+ each - how many teams are going to offer them more than that? I suppose they might if (like Kevin Gregg) they excel this year. But it seems like a dicey proposition.
92-93 - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 09:50 PM EST (#228845) #
Another thing : the Blue Jays may have moved guys like Collins, Magnuson, and Farquhar in anticipation of a FA market filled with RPs looking for work on one year deals. In the big picture the Rauch & Dotel signings have helped the Blue Jays use young arms as trade bait to acquire offensive players they are interested in, regulars like Yunel Escobar & Rajai Davis. If the Blue Jays do indeed have all this depth of MLB-ready bullpen arms it can only help them moving forward in the building process.
melondough - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 09:50 PM EST (#228846) #

Is he the largest player to ever play major league baseball? He's listed at 6'11" and 290 in Baseball Reference. Wow.

I read somewhere earlier today that indeed he is.  At a minimum it will be interesting to keep an eye on him next time the Jays and Yanks clear the benches. 

 


Matthew E - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 10:43 PM EST (#228847) #
When we're all listing potential bullpen arms for this year, don't forget Winston Abreu. I think he's worth keeping an eye on, at least.
TamRa - Monday, January 17 2011 @ 11:10 PM EST (#228848) #
Abreu, like Lewis, Reyes, Ray, and Mills (at least) has exactly ZERO chance of leapfrogging far enough up the depth chart to break camp with the Jays.

Barring a horrific team bus accident, he's going to Vegas.


Thomas - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 12:07 AM EST (#228849) #
Abreu, like Lewis, Reyes, Ray, and Mills (at least) has exactly ZERO chance of leapfrogging far enough up the depth chart to break camp with the Jays.

I assume Matthew's point was that you listed all of those other guys, so why not list Abreu? Also, I think there's a greater chance that Abreu pitches 20 innings for the Jays this year than many of those names, including Ray, Reyes and Cordero.

TamRa - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 02:07 AM EST (#228850) #
maybe, but I don't get the Abreu love

Lewis already (surprisingly) got a shot, Reyes is out of options, Cordero has an impressive career behind him, Ray has been up before, Richmond has a great track record v RHP already.

Abreu is what, 33? 34? And he was let go by a team that lost it's ENTIRE bullpen this offseason. You'd have to think that if you are a smart team (the Rays are) and a cheap team (the Rays are) and seem to have a great need (which an empty pen qualifies for) then if you let a minor league reliever you can easily retain walk away - he's probably not a hidden gem.

I know what his stats look like - but there has to be a reason for that.

I'd feel pretty confident predicting Abreu will never reach 50 IP in the majors in the rest of his entire career.

It might not be fair, but he'll never get a better chance than he had there and it amounted to nothing.

China fan - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 03:31 AM EST (#228851) #

Another interesting question is whether the revamped Jays bullpen will include anyone for the classic long-man 6th-starter role -- the role that Brian Tallet occupied last season.  As currently constituted (if you assume that priority goes to the highest-paid relievers, plus Purcey, Janssen, Camp and Villaneuva), there is no obvious candidate for the long-man role.  Of course Camp and Frasor can go a couple innings if necessary, and of course Janssen and Purcey have backgrounds as starters, but they still look to be mostly one-inning guys.  So does this open a possible job for a Zep or a Richmond in the bullpen, maybe replacing Purcey or Janssen? Or could Janssen be stretched out into the long man?  Or maybe the 6th-man job is irrelevant if there are several good pitchers in Las Vegas (Zep, Mills, or whomever) who can be thrown a spot start in the majors whenever you need someone?

And speaking of traditional roles, is there a LOOGY in the current bullpen?

I'm not necessarily defending the classic conception of "role pitchers" in the bullpen (closer, set-up man, LOOGY, long man) -- I'm just tossing it out for discussion. It will be interesting to see if Farrell believes in these traditional roles, or whether he is willing to go with a more innovative, fluid, flexible bullpen where a bunch of pitchers can handle a bunch of roles on any given day.

Magpie - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 06:10 AM EST (#228852) #
With the exception of Scott Schoeneweis, I don't know that the Jays have ever really employed a classic LOOGY - Scott Downs, like Tony Castillo and Gary Lavelle before him, was used as a pitcher rather than a situational guy.

It does seem unlikely that Farrell would stock his bullpen with 7 RHP, and if he's interested in having someone around specifically to get LH batters out, David Purcey is probably the guy. Jesse Carlson doesn't really have a platoon split - he's just another pitcher, one who happens to throw left-handed.
Magpie - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 06:13 AM EST (#228853) #
I don't know that the Jays have ever really employed a classic LOOGY

Dan Plesac! Of course!
Matthew E - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 09:20 AM EST (#228855) #
TamRa: You  may be right. I wouldn't want to offer a prediction, myself; I'm just saying I think he's worth keeping an eye on.

Magpie: Did the Jays use Plesac as a LOOGY? I can't call it to mind. Certainly he's been more than that in his history.

Mick Doherty - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 09:58 AM EST (#228856) #
Tallest ever to play MLB, yes. Kid pitcher a few years ago, Arizona I think, made it to AAA at 7'0" .... only reason I remember that was his classic good taste in surnames ... Doherty. (I think the first name was Ryan?)
Original Ryan - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 10:07 AM EST (#228857) #
Plesac was used as a lefty specialist while in Toronto.  He appeared in 262 games for the Blue Jays but only logged 181.2 innings.

Pedro Borbon is another lefty specialist the team employed for a time.

Geoff - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 10:14 AM EST (#228858) #
Just noticed a curious fact: this is the first year since 2001 that the Jays will have begun a season with a new manager. In every season since, a managerial change happened mid-season.

Gaston, Gibbons and Tosca relieved mid-season. Before that Martinez, Fregosi and Johnson were given fresh starts. And before that was Gaston, who was the first to provide mid-season managerial relief for the Jays. (temp fill-ins excepted)
Jonny German - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 11:08 AM EST (#228859) #
I like the signing. A few thoughts:

. I don't see any harm in sending Drabek to Vegas if Litsch and Rzepczynski both look good in spring training.

. Thus I don't see Rauch (or Dotel) squeezing out anyone who clearly deserves a spot. Roenicke, Mills, Carlson, Ray etc are all depth guys, it's nice to have them around but constructing your roster such that you're depending on them is a bad idea.

. Further, no one will trade you anything of value for those depth guys. You might get something for a Rauch or a Dotel at the deadline, and then the best of your depth guys gets his shot.

. The bullpen is heavily right-handed but the rotation leans left - Romero, Cecil, Rzep

. Having a deep veteran bullpen is a good idea when your rotation is young and getting younger

. And I still hope a starting third baseman will appear, putting Bautista in right field and Davis in a heavy-use 4th outfielder role. This move makes it easier to trade pitching to that end.
uglyone - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 11:33 AM EST (#228860) #
And I still hope a starting third baseman will appear, putting Bautista in right field and Davis in a heavy-use 4th outfielder role.

For some reason I get the feeling that AA & Co. are higher on Lawrie's MLB-readiness than we might think.

Maybe not ready to start the season in the bigs, but I get the feeling that they see him up here at some point this year, with 3B and RF both possible destinations for him.
cybercavalier - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 11:38 AM EST (#228861) #
I also like the signing. And a few reflections on it:

Drabek can play in Las Vegas, not only to not start his rookie status and service time before salary arbitration but also to train his nerve on emergency situation given the hitting heaven in Vegas. Last season, only Mills pitched consistently; the other ones were more or less walloped to yield high ERAs.

Rauch or Dotel can pitch in the bullpen and be flipped for prospects or draft picks afterwards. Having a deep veteran bullpen is a good idea and safety to stabilize and cover a younger rotation. Roenicke, Mills, Carlson and Ray are still young enough to further developed, especially with the management emphasis on player development. I am not sure but when Camp spent his time with the Royals and the Rays, he could be presumed as one of the depth guys. If Dotel and/or Rauch left the Jays through various means, the Jays' depth guys would have got more time to elevate their status from "depth guys". In the end, having Rauch and Dotel in bullpen are win-win-win situation for Rauch and Dotal, the Jays management and bullpen and also these so-called depth guys.

Last but not least, I don't get the idea of acquiring a starting third baseman, especially when JBau and EE are acceptable ones despite their own weaknesses (one season surprise and fielding, respectively). Left-hitting RF is easier and more affordable to be acquired.

 

Chuck - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 11:42 AM EST (#228862) #

Doherty. (I think the first name was Ryan?)

BB-ref suggests that you cheated your namesake out of an inch. Apparently he's 7'1", not a mere 7'.

mathesond - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 11:43 AM EST (#228863) #
Roy Hartsfield passed away

http://www.ajc.com/news/roy-thomas-hartsfield-85-806955.html
cybercavalier - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 11:44 AM EST (#228864) #
Erratum, Mills is the only starter to pitch pitched consistently.
Mike Green - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 11:45 AM EST (#228865) #
Yunel Escobar settled for 2.9M according to mlbtraderumors.com. 


Wildrose - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 11:46 AM EST (#228866) #
Escobar avoids arbitration, signs for $2.9 a year per MLB rumors.
Wildrose - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 12:33 PM EST (#228867) #
Rajai Davis 2 years $ 5.25.
Mick Doherty - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 12:35 PM EST (#228868) #

Question, and not sure where to look this up - how does he pronounce his surname?

The headline to this thread suggests "RAWK" but I'd always assumed it was "ROWSH." Anyone know for sure?

Forkball - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 12:40 PM EST (#228869) #
FWIW, ESPN has it as the latter.  http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4572

Two years for Rajai Davis?  Feels unnecessary, and perhaps is a sign that Bautista is going to be at 3B.

Chuck - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 12:45 PM EST (#228870) #

how does he pronounce his surname?

There are pronunciation instructions here.

92-93 - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 12:47 PM EST (#228871) #

For some reason I get the feeling that AA & Co. are higher on Lawrie's MLB-readiness than we might think...with 3B and RF both possible destinations for him.

Agreed. Part of the hesitation in acquiring a 3B/OF might be tied to the hope that one or both of Hechavarria/Lawrie are ready for the bigs this year so AA wants to leave his options open.

Two years for Rajai Davis?  Feels unnecessary

It would cost less than 500k to release Davis before 2012, so that seems like a fair price for the Blue Jays to pay for some cost certainty with their 4th OF and a team-friendly option in his final arb year.

 

ayjackson - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 01:19 PM EST (#228872) #

I think there's a possibility that Frasor is released come ST.  It may be that their numbers are just too far apart, but otherwise relievers shouldn't be difficult to settle with.

If they release Frasor, they send a message to Dotel, Rauch and Camp for next offseason - don't accept arb!

Having said that, Frasor announcement in 3-2-1....

vw_fan17 - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 01:44 PM EST (#228873) #
Question, and not sure where to look this up - how does he pronounce his surname?
The headline to this thread suggests "RAWK" but I'd always assumed it was "ROWSH." Anyone know for sure?


One thing I do know: Rauch in german means smoke..
Mike Green - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 02:05 PM EST (#228874) #
AYJ, that is a very good point. 
Jonny German - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 02:16 PM EST (#228875) #
Brandon Morrow is on board for $2.3M according to MLBTR.
Thomas - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 02:23 PM EST (#228876) #
I'm pretty sure it is Rowsh, too.
Mick Doherty - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 02:33 PM EST (#228877) #

One thing I do know: Rauch in german means smoke..

Ooh, I smell a possible nickname! Surely jay fans remember (not fondly) the old Tiger reliever Aurelio Lopez? He of the nickname Senor Smoke?

Welcome to the Jay bullpen, Herr Rauch!

92-93 - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 02:42 PM EST (#228878) #

I've been speculating about cutting Frasor for months now every time the will-he-or-won't-he-accept-arb conversation came up. If Frasor at his arb price can't bring back anything in trade and the Blue Jays bullpen is healthy Frasor may find himself cut on March 15th - could be 500k well spent if that does indeed force Rauch & Dotel to decline arb heading into 2012.

When I see that Merkin Valdez & Jeremy Accardo broke camp as the 6th and 7th reliever in 2010, I realize that any fretting about too many arms in the bullpen will easily sort itself out over the course of a season.

Mike Green - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 02:44 PM EST (#228879) #
Matt Capps signs for $7.15M and avoids arbitration. 
92-93 - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 02:50 PM EST (#228880) #
It's mind boggling that the Twins GM thought it was a good idea to offer Capps arbitration while at the same time declining to offer Rauch arbitration for that Type B compensation. Makes me a little nervous about Rauch - what do they know that we don't yet?
ComebyDeanChance - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 04:05 PM EST (#228881) #
I suspect that the Jays are:

1. Attempting to negotiate a multi-year deal (as they should) with Bautista. The norm in such a deal is that there is, first a guarantee of more than one year, and second, a higher front-end year, than would be achieved in an arbitration decision. I doubt this is of any importance to the internet kids who think the organization should piss away $10 million of Rogers' money on Manny Ramirez, but it's the right focus. The team will state that this is not inconsistent with its 'no negotiation after the exchange date' policy because it involves a multi-year deal.

2. Taking Jason Frasor to arbitration. Although the Jays have had a team policy of avoiding crapping on their players at arbitration hearings, that doesn't necessarily apply to a guy who ducks free agency like Frasor has. I'd like to argue the case, and can imagine its contours fairly easily. "Mr. Arbitrator, the player seeks from you what he had no expectation whatsoever that he would obtain obtain on the free market. He seeks the security of an arbitrated deal, without any of the risk of free agency when he would cost a club a draft pick, and makes comparison claims about other players' contracts to you that he had no confidence another club would accept in the marketplace." Ya da, ya da.
Mike Green - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 04:19 PM EST (#228882) #
My understanding is that arbitration arguments revolve primarily around service time/performance comps.  For a reliever like Frasor, the comps are all over the map. 
Alex Obal - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 04:30 PM EST (#228883) #
Is that also true for players who chose arbitration to dodge free agency (as opposed to those with 3-6 years of service time)?
Mike Green - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 04:37 PM EST (#228884) #
You would think.  Remember it's not a one-way street.  The club has the option to decline to offer arbitration, in which case the player is a free agent regardless.  As a practical matter, the answer to the argument suggested above would be "you don't want to pay him the market for his comps having lost the gamble that he would pursue free agency and you would get the pick, come on...". 
christaylor - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 04:55 PM EST (#228885) #
"I doubt this is of any importance to the internet kids who think the organization should piss away $10 million of Rogers' money on Manny Ramirez, but it's the right focus."

I don't think the Jays ought to sign Ramirez (not that he wouldn't make the team better) but I doubt that he costs $10M/year. OBP is what the Jays offense needs and the last time Manny had an OBP under .370, Bill Clinton was president. The wrong thing to do sign Bautista long-term unless he wants to give the Jays a sweetheart of a deal, it never hurts to as, as I'm sure AA has, but I don't see why Bautista ought to give the Jays a break on a long-term deal.

By far the best move for the Jays is to hope Bautista rakes next season and then trade him at the deadline. If Marcum wasn't in the Jays plans, I don't see why Bautista should be -- Marcum had a better body of work and is approximately the same age.
vw_fan17 - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 05:05 PM EST (#228886) #
I suspect that the Jays are:

1. Attempting to negotiate a multi-year deal (as they should) with Bautista. The norm in such a deal is that there is, first a guarantee of more than one year, and second, a higher front-end year, than would be achieved in an arbitration decision. I doubt this is of any importance to the internet kids who think the organization should piss away $10 million of Rogers' money on Manny Ramirez, but it's the right focus.


Actually, reviewing the Jays roster, I see the following (projected starters):
RHB:
JPA/Molina - C
EE - 1B/DH
Hill - 2B
Escobar - SS
Bautista - 3B
VW - CF
Davis - RF

LHB:
Lind - DH/1B
Snider - LF

Changes from last year: essentially, Davis replaces Lewis, and EE replaces Overbay: 2 RHB replacing 2 LHB.

Unfortunately, the easiest place to find a cheap left-handed power bat is 1B/DH (I was all for the Jays throwing $5M+ at Thome!) - but the Jays already have a pretty much full-time LHB there. This also explains the interest in/rumours about Chavez (LHB) and to some degree, Johnny Damon and Scott Posednik, both LHB, over ManRam. I know, it's not the end of the world, but I would think that adding another LHB would be pretty important, and those three (absent a trade) are pretty much all that's left. IIRC, Damon's about done as a fielder. Not sure about Posednik. Chavez, if healthy and able to rebound to even 100 OPS+ levels, would obviously be a huge signing for the Jays.

OTOH, ManRam has hit both LHP and RHP quite well in his career..

On the gripping hand - the Jays have been (notoriously?) bad vs. LHP in recent years, so maybe getting all RHB, at least some of whom can mash lefties (and all of whom can hit RHP decently) is the way to go.

Then again: EE at 3rd, Bautista in RF, Lind at first and Thome to DH could have worked, I would think..
Thomas - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 05:33 PM EST (#228887) #
By far the best move for the Jays is to hope Bautista rakes next season and then trade him at the deadline. If Marcum wasn't in the Jays plans, I don't see why Bautista should be -- Marcum had a better body of work and is approximately the same age.

One reason that Bautista may be is that he is something they don't have in abundance, namely a power hitter and 3B (or even corner outfielder). The Jays have pitching to spare. I don't necessarily think Bautista is in the team's long-range plans, but he could be for that reason alone.

Mike Green is right, as far as is my understanding, in that it is heavily based on those two factors. It all revolves around comparable players and consideration of the player's service time. I don't think CBDC's points about what Frasor may or may not have been able to find on the free agent marketplace would be relevant. Frasor accepted arbitration, as was his contractual right. The reasons for that decision or what Frasor's expected marketplace earnings were had he not accepted arbitration are not particularly pertinent.

cybercavalier - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 06:03 PM EST (#228888) #
I agree with most of the poster(s) here, except a few tidbits:

1) For the Jays bullpen, depth is retained. Grooming more pitching for the Jays bullpen is ongoing. No disrespect to Frasor, his performance may not be missed if traded during the 2011 season, because the Jays have so much pitching depth.
2) If Baustista of last year is no fluke, I think the Jays have enough bats of power (especially righthanded) and should pursue guys like Nick Johnson, whose on-base ability may benefit the lineup more than letting the Jays young players from the minor (JPA for example) to get on base and having Thome to wallop the ball for homerun. In the end, the young player needs to be groomed, not the other way around. And the presence of Molina and Watamatsu are evidences for this rationale. So letting Escobar, Bautista, Wells, Hill, Lind and Snider getting on base, and let JPA see more pitches before his PA. By the way, after his 2HR in his first game, he sort of die down in subsequent games. 
3) Manny is a tricky scenerio: No, I am not in the camp of giving him a 10M 1 year contract to him, but to invest in his perceived market value of a RHB who stil get on base and slug. It is pretty much the same strategy on Dotel, Cordero or Rauch that Manny could be useful near the trading deadline. For the Jays, is Manny's perceived market value useful to the Jays for 2011 season, I think only the management would know, given the anticipation of Brett Lawrie and Hechavarria reaching the major league sooner than later.
4) I would groom a minor league veteran and borderline major leaguer who had nothing to prove and stuck behind some teams' roster, than signing a perceived base-stealing threat in Damon or Posednik. However, this rationale doesn't mean those two players shall not be signed, especially if their perceived market value (or perceived base-stealing threat) fit the Jays' needs. Same idea on Eric Chavez. Last season, the dice is rolled on Mike McCoy; I suspect there is always a dice-roller on the 25-man roster each season.

In a nutshell,

signing Damon: No
signing Thome: mostly No; at least not a first choice among 1B/DH
signing Posednik: undecided based on information offered to the public
signing E. Chavez: pending his health and performance on workout with the Jays
signing Manny: undecided based on information offered to the public
signing N. Johnson: undecided based on information offered to the public
sam - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 06:18 PM EST (#228889) #
I agree with this idea ComebyDeanChance. It looks like the Jays and Frasor are 500K apart, while this is certainly not a significant number in comparison to other contracts being doled out, I think the Jays should make a point of going to arbitration and laying down the law to next years crop of arbitration eligible free agents: decline or else.

I think Frasor has very little trade value, the best case scenario I think for the Jays is he pitches well this year but not well enough to retain his 'A' status, which would bump him down to 'B' and thus more likely to decline and net us a draft pick. I have a hard time believing we could find better value than the potential draft pick from other teams at this moment.
Alex Obal - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 06:44 PM EST (#228890) #
That'd be a good outcome. The absolute best-case scenario is he gets possessed by Billy Wagner, puts up a 1.65 ERA with 20 saves, and signs with the Astros for $25 million over three years. Unlikely, but if he has a career year he'll get paid.
92-93 - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 06:50 PM EST (#228891) #

The norm in such a deal is that there is, first a guarantee of more than one year, and second, a higher front-end year, than would be achieved in an arbitration decision. I doubt this is of any importance to the internet kids who think the organization should piss away $10 million of Rogers' money on Manny Ramirez, but it's the right focus.

I guess while you were out for a ride on your high horse you missed the contract Votto just signed. Unless his 3/38m contract is strangely structured as 13.75m - 12.5m - 11.75m or something similar, he did not achieve a higher front-end year than would have been achieved in arbitration (and even then it still may not be true).

As for Manny - while it's obvious now (Thome) that it wouldn't take such a big guarantee to bring Manny here, I'm still waiting for a cogent explanation as to why it would be a bad thing for Rogers to spend $ on him (yes, even if it were 10m). And please, don't tell me the money is better spent on kids - we are working from the assumption that AA targets any prospect he wants and that the 2 budgers don't overlap. I've yet to understand why people would rather Rogers save 3-10m and have the Blue Jays field Corey Patterson & Mike McCoy instead of adding Manny Ramirez to the roster.

cybercavalier - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 06:53 PM EST (#228892) #
I agree with Sam. No matter what happens, the Jays still get a draft pick value out of letting Frasor go. I don't know, but having a gut feeling of pushing Frasor to the corner of "decline or else" doesn't fare too well for me. I don't know but Russell Martin was asked to play catch and multiple positions while having the more or less appointed starting catcher JPA in competition. Call me lenient, if you will.
cybercavalier - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 07:02 PM EST (#228893) #
re 92-93 on Manny; not enough info other than the that released to the public. Patterson and McCoy are wild cards anyway, which shall be on a different budget. IMO, the Jays shall have at least three budgets, one of the kids development, one of low risk, high reward signing and bargains such as Cordero, Patterson and McCoy. And another one on grasping the stars such as Manny, Thome et al. to push the Jays over the top into postseason and world series. However, the carefulness of using the third budget on Manny is not a excuse of letting him go to another team on a bargain price if the Jays can invest in him for their own benefit.
Ryan C - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 08:03 PM EST (#228894) #

I'm still waiting for a cogent explanation as to why it would be a bad thing for Rogers to spend $ on him (Manny).

I don't know about it being a "bad" thing.  More like, of the things I have to ponder, do I really care about the Jays signing Manny or not?  If this is a building year, then he's not going to make much of a difference in the team's overall performance anyway, and he'll most likely be gone at the end of the year.  Not to mention the potential he carries with him for clubhouse drama (except I guess I did just mention it). 

Mike Green - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 09:47 PM EST (#228895) #
Bautista's number is 10.5 (which seems to me to be a well-chosen strategic number for a hearing) and the club's is 7.6.  I imagine that AA got quite a bit of good sabermetric advice on the club's number, and I'd love to know the reasoning because it looks to me to be obviously low.  I want this case to go to arbitration, just to see what the result would be. 
uglyone - Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 10:56 PM EST (#228896) #
yeah, i think everyone's pretty dang curious as to what the outcome of this very unique arby case would be.
Thomas - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 12:18 AM EST (#228898) #
Mike, why did you use the phrase "sabermetric advice"?

To my understanding, sabermetrics would not factor into the arbitrator's analysis of which amount to award to the player. Thus, I would suspect it is not particularly influential in the club's decision of which number to file at.
Alex Obal - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 02:11 AM EST (#228899) #
... I think Mike means they have a crack staff of sabermetricians with a good, empirically defined sense of how the arbitrators tick.
Magpie - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 02:48 AM EST (#228900) #
Doesn't it seem weird that they're going to go to a hearing with Jason Frasor over $475 K? Normally, when the team and the player are that close, they just split the difference. Wonder why not in this case?
sam - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 02:49 AM EST (#228901) #
I also would be interested in this case going to settlement despite the possible detriment it may cause to the organization. As a baseball fan it certainly would be a fascinating case and hopefully if does go to arbitration it will be revealed what tools both parties used to come to their positions and how the arbitrator weighed the evidence.
blarry - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 08:08 AM EST (#228902) #
sam, none of the why is ever released, just the decision.

Thomas - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 09:57 AM EST (#228903) #
... I think Mike means they have a crack staff of sabermetricians with a good, empirically defined sense of how the arbitrators tick.

I think we may be just quibbling over words without having a difference of opinion, but I don't think this is something that a staff needs to have sabermetricians on board for. It's not about BABIP or xFIP.

The staff would need (as any baseball operations team would have) some individuals with the ability to analyze statistics, but the decision will turn on service time, comparables and past arbitral precedent. I don't think a background in sabermetrics would be pertinent in settling upon a filing number or creating an argument.

bpoz - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 11:34 AM EST (#228904) #
Yesterday AA was on the FAN with B McCowan and S Brunt asked him what his day was like on Monday.

AA said it was hectic. He and other Jay's staff were negotiating with agents, the agents were negotiating for ALL their clients and information on DONE deals was coming in all the time which affected $ amounts being discussed.

My thoughts not AA's regarding J Bautista's $10.5mil vs $7.6Mil.
How close do BJ Upton & J Bautista compare as players. BJ signed for $4.85mil. I think both are FAs in 2012, but not sure about BJ.

BJ is so much younger than J Bau, V Wells & R Davis, I checked. So you can build around him , but the others are win (now or over 3-4 yrs). IMO they are all fairly equal defensively.
I expect that R Davis is looking odd to be in the same sentence with the others, IMO because he is only 5'10", lacks equivalent HR power and will not be able to withstand the rigors of a full season, also IMO he is not a #3/4 hitter but I liked his OBP, 52 Rbi & offensive speed. Lastly regarding Davis, AA states that HE finds it increasingly more difficult to obtain speed in the FA market.So I am thinking Davis IS valued as more than a 4th OF.

Starting in 2012 I believe, people (hopefully management too) think the Jays will start to be realistically considered a contender. If so then 2011 must be more of a finishing touch year than a ground work year.
bpoz - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 11:57 AM EST (#228906) #
Sorry my error. Its realistically contend in 2014 not 2012, so 2011 is not a finishing touches year.
Mike Green - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 12:03 PM EST (#228907) #
Thomas, I was thinking that Tal Smith when he was the Astros' GM used to hire Bill James for a tough arbitration.  Bautista is pretty difficult to argue because of his unusual career path.  Actually, Jeff King had a career path somewhat like his, but not as extreme. 

Anyways, the question of what weight should be attached to 2010 vs. 2009 and 2008 performance for the purpose of determining comparables is one on which you would expect some sabermetric input.  The way I look at it Bautista would be some combination of a (roughly) $20 million player and a (roughly) $5 million player, and the % attached to each figure determines the result.

92-93 - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 12:24 PM EST (#228908) #

Player A has 2411 PA 310r 573h 104hr 375rbi 16sb .266/.337/.476. 1 ASG, 1 Silver Slugger, received MVP votes once.

Player B has 2721 PA 350r 566h 113hr 335rbi 23sb .244/.342/.453. 1 ASG, 1 Silver Slugger, received MVP votes once.

Bautista may be coming off a ridiculous 2010, but I think his side will have a hard time justifying a 437% raise when an OF like Ryan Ludwick with similar career totals only gets a 25% raise. Look at the arb criteria :

1. "quality of the Player’s contribution to his Club during the past season" - Huge win for Bautista.

2. "the length and consistency of his career contribution" - Let's call this a toss up. Both have been inconsistent players but Ludwick has been consistently better.

3. "the record of the Player’s past compensation" - Huge win for Ludwick. Ludwick made 5.45m, Bautista 2.4m in 2010.

4. "comparative baseball salaries" - This is the one that links Ludwick & Bautista. Ludwick settled for 6.8m. Bautista is asking for 10.5m.

5. "existence of any physical or mental defects on the part of the Player" - Impossible for fans to know, but I find it interesting this is explicitly mentioned - it could be part of the reason Votto was willing to just take the 3/38 guarantee instead of trying to milk every last dollar by going to arb 3 times - the Reds could prey on his mental stability in a courtroom.

6. "and the recent performance record of the Club including but not limited to its League standing and attendance as an indication of public acceptance" - Another clear win for Ludwick. SD almost won their division and drew significantly better than the Blue Jays last year.

Any evidence may be submitted which is relevant to the above criteria, and the arbitration panel shall assign such weight to the evidence as shall appear appropriate under the circumstances. And there you have it. Under these guidelines, would you award Bautista the 10.5m he's looking for after making 2.4m in 2010 when a similar player received nowhere close to that size contract or raise? Would you really assign Bautista's 2010 season THAT much weight?

I just can't see how Bautista's side can claim he's worthy of such special consideration. Howard was a groundbreaking case but he at least had 3 straight monster years before arb, including a Rookie of the Year & MVP award. Even so, many thought the only reason Howard won his 10m was because the Phillies lowballed Howard on their offer of 7m considering Miguel Cabrera had earned 7.4m in arb1 the year before. If Bautista's side had filed for under 10m it would be a better battle, but I think the 10.5m is just too high for the arbitrator to reasonably award, whereas the 7.6m is not too low.

ComebyDeanChance - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 12:48 PM EST (#228909) #
Bautista's number is 10.5 (which seems to me to be a well-chosen strategic number for a hearing) and the club's is 7.6. I imagine that AA got quite a bit of good sabermetric advice on the club's number, and I'd love to know the reasoning because it looks to me to be obviously low. I want this case to go to arbitration, just to see what the result would be.

Mike, I don't know that it turns so much on sabermetric advise as positioning around a mid-point. And in that regard, I had the impression that it was Anthopoulos, rather than Bautista's agent, who was happy with the positioning once the numbers were released. I suspect the club predicted the 10.5, and chose a number where they win at a mid-point of $9 million. I suspect the club's case is that the number of players awarded $10 million in arbitration is a small, and that Bautista's overall career to this point (rather than relying upon a single year) doesn't put him in that class. My own guess is that player's agent would have much preferred the club to come in at 7.4 or 7.5, so that a mid-point of 9 would fall on their side rather than the club's.
Flex - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 01:25 PM EST (#228910) #
There's a fascinating piece by Joe Posnanski that discusses the Bill James theory on the value of walks vs singles. The discussion brings up John Olerud, who James believes is a "strong" candidate for the Hall of Fame. Interesting reading:

http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/01/19/trading-500-for-325/
John Northey - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 01:31 PM EST (#228911) #
Seems that Bill James wrote about the HOF and relievers. Got me thinking about the guys in there and how relievers tend to be valued at a lot lower value than other players.

HOF'ers and when voted in:
Hoyt Wilhelm-1985
Rollie Fingers-1992 (17 year gap)
Dennis Eckersley-2004 (12 year gap)
Bruce Sutter-2006 (2 year gap)
Rich Gossage-2008 (2 year gap)

So after the HOF voters were extremely selective, waiting 10+ years betweenpicks, they suddenly opened the floodgates for Sutter & Gossage. Many had a major issue with Sutter due to extremely short career length and not being _that_ good (12 seasons, 1042 IP, 300 saves on the nose, 136 ERA+, 3 times over 150), fewer with Gossage (22 seasons, 1800 IP, 310 saves, 126 ERA+ but 147 ERA+ after he had his last start, 8 times over 170) but neither was viewed as a lock like Eck and Wilhelm and Fingers were.

Wilhelm was the first guy seen as a great closer and had the saves record for 16 years, including the period when it was first introduced.

Fingers was viewed as one of the first great closers and had the all-time lead in Saves for 12 years.

Whats funny is how Lee Smith held that record for 13 years yet saw 3 other closers get into the HOF. Hoffman has had it for 5 years and will probably lose it either this year or next and is seen as a lock (first to 500 & 600 saves).

Few closers get $10+mil a year. Many pitchers and hitters do though, and no closer has come close to $20 mil even though the universally viewed as best ever, Rivera, has played in NY his whole career. This suggests teams do not value closers as much as Hall voters do. When I was growing up in the 70's/80's I remember thinking of Fingers/Eck/Gossage as HOF'ers, of Dan Quisenberry being on a HOF path (removed from closer role too soon, never given a 2nd chance at it), but I thought of a lot more hitters and starters being on a HOF path.

Should be interesting to see how the voters act in the future, and how teams like the Jays deal with closers. I doubt we'll see another BJ Ryan type deal ($10+ a year for 5 years) here.
ComebyDeanChance - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 01:40 PM EST (#228912) #
while you were out for a ride on your high horse

The height of the horse may be a function of your vantage point.
bpoz - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 02:41 PM EST (#228913) #
92-93, very informative stuff. Thanks.

J Hamilton is asking $12mil vs $8.7mil. He & JB both had good 2010s. R Ludwick's production decreased from his best year 2008.
Everyone always gets a raise, I think. IMO N Cruz is also a good player $3mil.
Since we are dealing with the unknown production of 2011, I don't know what is correct or wrong. The salary range could be $3-12mil, all 4 could produce 30-35Hr & 100Rbi. Ludwick would be the most valuable to his team because his 30Hr $ 100Rbi would not be supplemented by teammates. But $12mil is a good price for that perceived production IMO.
Brian W - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 03:11 PM EST (#228915) #
While this isn't likely to be relevant for MLB in 2011, here is the arbitrators verdict from Krzysztof Oliwa's 1999 arbitration case (NHL): http://www.canlii.org/en/qc/qcdag/doc/1999/1999canlii2295/1999canlii2295.html (there are a few other players on canlii.org as well).

It's an interesting look at how the arbitrator reaches his decision and what comparisons were used.  Obviously the process in baseball is different in many ways including the arbitrator being restricted to the two submitted numbers instead of being able to choose a midpoint.

Mike Green - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 03:45 PM EST (#228921) #
92-93,

Ludwick's pattern is only tangentially relevant to Bautista's.  He had a big year immediately prior to his first arb-eligible year and signed for $3.75M.  He has been decidedly mediocre since then (OPS+ of 105 and 104, actually regressing below where he was prior to the big year), and so it is not surprising at all that the increases have been small. 

If the club wants to argue that Bautista may regress to the extent that Ludwick has, it can.  On the other hand, Ludwick didn't hit 52 homers and most people don't figure that Bautista is likely to regress to that extent.

Thomas - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 04:04 PM EST (#228922) #
If the club wants to argue that Bautista may regress to the extent that Ludwick has, it can. On the other hand, Ludwick didn't hit 52 homers and most people don't figure that Bautista is likely to regress to that extent.

I wouldn't expect the likelihood of regression will factor into the arbitrator's decision. The arbitrator isn't predicting Bautista's projection for 2011, he's awarding Bautista a salary for 2011 based on his past production.

92-93 - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 04:34 PM EST (#228924) #
What Thomas said. People seem to be inputing their own factors into the arbitration process, instead of actually reading the paragraph in the CBA that deals with the criteria. If you want to claim Bautista's 2010 season deserves more weight than all the other factors, that's fine - but don't make up new criteria that the CBA doesn't provide for.
92-93 - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 04:39 PM EST (#228925) #
bpoz, the Hamilton case indeed is intriguing as well, but he has a few things working heavily in his favour that Bautista doesn't - he won the MVP last year and his team rode that outstanding performance to its first ever World Series appearance - those are very important factors. And even then he's not asking for the same sort of raise the Bautista camp seeks.
Mike Green - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 04:56 PM EST (#228926) #
I agree.  That's why Ludwick's situation is tangential to Bautista's case.  I thought about Barry Bonds, who was not  Barry Bonds for the first 3-4 years of his career.  After his first big year, there was a yawning gap between the Pirates' offer of 850K and his request of 1.6M.  The case went to hearing and Bonds lost.  On the other hand, that was a 1st year arb case also.
Mike Green - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 05:00 PM EST (#228927) #
92-93, I don't think that Bautista's 2010 season would be the sole important factor.  I also don't think that 2004-2006 performance will be given the same degree of weight as his 2010 performance.  "Past performance" does not necessarily imply that one simply look at career statistics.
92-93 - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 05:10 PM EST (#228929) #
Why are you putting quotes around two words that weren't spoken by anybody? The CBA says nothing about considering past performance in arbitration cases. I beseech you, Mr. Green, to read the CBA criteria (and my comments laid out as a result) before commenting further.
Mike Green - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 05:27 PM EST (#228930) #
You want a lawyerly explanation.  All right.  There is no indication that the listed factors are to be given equal weight.  Bautista will argue that factor #1 is worth significantly more weight than factors # 3 and #6.  As I said, in assessing "comparative baseball salaries" for the purpose of #4, there is no requirement that you look at career statistics alone in determining who is comparative and in particular if the club wants to argue that a player coming off two crappy years is comparable to a player coming off a great one, good luck to it.

China fan - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 05:33 PM EST (#228932) #
Isn't the arbitration issue a bit irrelevant at this point?  Given the huge discrepancy between the dollar amounts submitted by Bautista and the Jays, it seems pretty clear that AA is trying to negotiate a multi-year deal with Bautista, and it also seems pretty clear that AA is fairly confident of getting the deal done.  Otherwise I don't think he would take the risk that Bautista would go into 2011 feeling bruised and battered from an arbitration decision that left him feeling underpaid by such a hefty amount.  Bautista was the best hitter on the team in 2010 and is fairly crucial to the team's success or failure in 2011.  Would you really want to play hardball with him, using negative arguments to persuade the arbitrators that Bautista is not nearly as good as he thinks he is?    Maybe you do that with Jason Frasor, but surely not with your best hitter.  So, it stands to reason that AA believes he can negotiate a multi-year agreement with Bautista, and the case will never go to arbitration.
DaveB - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 06:04 PM EST (#228934) #
The CBA says nothing about considering past performance in arbitration cases

92-93, doesn't "the length and consistency of his career contribution" equate to looking at past performance?

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to go through the arb panel valuation points. I enjoyed your post and while Ludwick might not be the best comparison for the reason you point out (Bautista's much better most recent season) I agree with your conclusion that the Jays have made a winnable offer.

My two cents. Isn't the best comparable Carlos Pena? Pena hit the jackpot in 2008 for an age 29 breakout season almost identical to Bautista's. His career to that point in service time, raw numbers, quality of breakout season, was similar to Bautista, better in some respects (ie, more HRs in fewer games, better avg. season and better pre-breakout seasons) and worse in others (he didn't consistently stay in the Majors). He avoided arbitration by signing a three-year deal that paid him $6 million in 2008 (a raise from $800,000), $24 million for three years. MLB average salary growth has been minimal since 2008, something less than five per cent overall. The most recent similar power hitter arb decision is Howard. Bautista is asking for more than Howard was awarded in 2008, but with a weaker case in raw career totals to that point and a much weaker case on an average year basis (ie, consistency), awards, team accomplishment, franchise impact, etc. The Jays are offering Bautista 25 per cent more than Pena negotiated with the Rays, slightly more than the Phillies offered Howard three years ago, close to what the Giants offered Lincecum last year, about a million less than the Rangers are offering Hamilton this year. Club arb offers to other free agents may not have any bearing to the panel, but Bautista can hardly be insulted by the blueblood company the Jays are putting him in. I don't think there's any danger of Bautista being pissed off by this process unless someone mentions steroid allegations, which seems most unlikely.

I do agree with you China Fan that the Jays are working on a deal with Bautista. The Rays' three-year deal with Pena proved generous to the player and probably one year too long. Last year, the Giants and Lincecum avoided arbitration with a two-year deal for $25 million, which ended up as a win-win for the two parties.  I'd like to see the Jays and Bautista do something similar, avoid arb and work out a two-year deal for about $20 million (an extra club option year for 2013 would be good for the team, perhaps not for Bautista). It's close to what Bautista wants now, times two years. It would leave Bautista with another chance for a big contract at age 32 without putting all the pressure on him to perform this year. If he hits 22 HRs this year, 40 next year, he'll still be a prime free agent. It's a gamble for the Jays but not an onerous long-term commitment. Even if the Jays win the arb case, if they try to keep Jose on a longer-term deal (obviously only if he's mashing) it's going to cost them close to $20 mill over the next two years anyway. It gives the Jays a bigger window to consider extending him beyond 2012; if they don't want to or Bautista says no, it makes him a more valuable trading chip than he would be as a free agent in just 10 months.

bpoz - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 06:36 PM EST (#228935) #
Based on information stated, IMO the $7.6mil will win. Sorry but I cannot give any good reasoning for my stance.

Chinafan, you seem strong on a long term deal being AA's preference. How much & why, if you don't mind expanding.

IMO either Arb figure is a good deal for the Jays. 2011 performance is the unknown, that is the gamble and we have no choice but to play it. Right now we may have one of the best players in the AL, a 2010 repeat confirms that and we lose him to FA IMO. If only 25 HR & corresponding offense in 2011 may mean Type B and we still lose the FA bidding war.
But since AA said that he would do a JB long term deal in mid season then who knows.
P Fielder had 5 good seasons in a row and got $15mil. Fielder should win on all the Arb criteria IMO. So J Hamilton & J Bautista are iffy cases.
92-93 - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 06:43 PM EST (#228936) #

I understand you a little better now, Mike, but I still don't see how that changes anything. Who is the Bautista camp going to point to to find a comparative baseball salary that shows JoBau is worth 10.5m? Under what circumstance can #4 be used for Bautista's benefit? The only precedent I see here is Howard, who asked for less than Bautista with a better track record, an MVP trophy for special consideration, and a World Series ring to top it off.

I really hope that you're wrong, China Fan, because I can't see the Jays getting any value on a Bautista extension if his asking price is 10.5m. It's a good point that a 3 year deal for Bautista potentially makes him more valuable on the trade market come July. However, I still don't see the benefit to the Blue Jays. To make the extension worthwhile, Bautista needs to be very good in 2011 again, but if he is then the worst case scenario for Toronto is Type A compensation & 10m to spend on other players. Furthermore, as was already mentioned, a Bautista extension would make me really scratch my head over the Marcum trade and lack of involvement on the FA market this offseason - are you ready to start adding elite pieces to the team's future or not? If you are, why would you keep Bautista while trading Marcum (potentially filling Bautista's position) and sitting out the FA market?

I'm with DaveB on the hurt feelings - AA said all the right things on 590 yesterday in terms of how the team goes about the negotiation, and seemed to make a point to say that they stay far away from confrontation.

92-93, doesn't "the length and consistency of his career contribution" equate to looking at past performance?

Mike seemed to be saying that for "past performance" considerations, 2010 would weigh more heavily than earlier seasons. I was trying to show that to be incorrect - "the length and consistency of his career contribution" is it's own criteria, separate from the player's most recent season. If you use the player's past performance to judge the length and consistency of his career contribution, there is absolutely no difference between the stats accumulated in 2010 and 2004.
 

brent - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 07:16 PM EST (#228938) #

MiLB.com: Was getting dealt to Toronto exciting for you and your family?

#ques_include {width:230px;float:right;margin-left:5px;} #ques_content {border-top:1px solid #000000;border-left:1px solid #000000;border-bottom:1px solid #000000;border-right:1px solid #000000;padding-left:5px;} .ques_schedule {margin-top:5px;font-size:11px;} .ques_dates {font-size:11px;font-style:italic;color:#999;}


Lawrie: It was very exciting for me being a Canadian kid. It's a great feeling to come back to Canada and have the Canadian flag on my chest again. It's the first time I've felt welcome in a long time.

 

 I wonder what this says about the Brewers minor league system long term.

TamRa - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 07:33 PM EST (#228940) #
a couple of thoughts:

One - AA said in the interview that for the purposes of Arbitration the process places HEAVY weight on the "class" - which is to say that if you are not comparing JB to people in the same year of eligibility as he is you are off target. Apparently, if I understood his implications clearly, that's the primary factor in compare-ability, then presumably positional comparisons would come next before you get into the things like consistancy and so forth.

Second - while it's not untrue, in my view, to say thatthe arbitrator is not attempting to project future production, it is nonetheless true that salaries at this stage of a players career pretty much NEVER go down for arb-eligable players.

Thus, you can't simply say "the 2010 production was worth $10.5 million" because even if his production goes down, the higher salary alters the curve so that he would either be ridiculously overpaid (for declining production) in 2012 or non-tendered.
Yes, JB is free agent eligible after 2011 so that's not a factor HERE but I'm just using him as an example of arb cases in general.

All that said, BECAUSE he's a FA after 2011, the arbitrator in THIS case wouldn't have that as  factor. i only mean to say that I can see a scenario in which an arbitrator would hesitate to set a "new floor" that was that high.


Mike Green - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 07:45 PM EST (#228941) #
A couple of months ago, AA said that he could not get a deal done with Bautista and that they needed direction from the arbitrator about his current worth.  Personally, if I were Bautista, I wouldn't do a deal until after the arbitration.  We'll see if he feels the same way.
greenfrog - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 09:12 PM EST (#228944) #
It's a bit surprising the Jays didn't simply offer $8M (a bump of $5.6M), which would seem to be enough to secure an arb win. $7.6M might get it done, though - for one thing, it would more than triple his 2010 salary.

I don't think AA wants to do a long-term deal, but I could see him offering two years (maybe three) plus a club option. The GM is aggressively rebuilding with premium young talent. He's not going to want to derail that plan by offering J-Bau an expensive, long-term contract. I think he would be fine with getting another good year out of him, then trading him or collecting the two draft picks.
cybercavalier - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 10:34 PM EST (#228945) #
Re greenfrog: I agree with you, mostly on the the salary (8M and 7.6M). At any rate, it would be prudent to let Jose play a full season at third base without much position switching, which is not needed with Davis and possibly another bat to be signed or Patterson. By the trading deadline 2011, I will then reevaluate him and the team's situation and decide how to draw a path for the relationship between him and the team.

A minor note: Rajai and Jose were teammates in Pirates' minor leagues.


cybercavalier - Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 10:46 PM EST (#228946) #
I got a strange feeling that the Pirates are supplying Canadians (Jays included) decent development on baseball prospects: Jose, Rajai, Jason Bay etc.. On the other end, the Jays supply them a backup catcher (Erik Kratz) and a Canadian body (Bay) for them to develop. Well, to carry on this tradition, maybe AA can pry another outfielder from their system; or signing Lasting Milledge, Jason Jaramillo or John Bowker from their team, if any of the three is cast away to the minor league after ST.
Thomas - Thursday, January 20 2011 @ 12:53 AM EST (#228948) #
One - AA said in the interview that for the purposes of Arbitration the process places HEAVY weight on the "class" - which is to say that if you are not comparing JB to people in the same year of eligibility as he is you are off target. Apparently, if I understood his implications clearly, that's the primary factor in compare-ability, then presumably positional comparisons would come next before you get into the things like consistancy and so forth.

Yes, service time is quite important. I don't think that limits it solely to players of the same year of eligibility, but those are the most instructive comparables. I imagine, based on positional factors, each side will likely come in with players who have slightly less service time, arguing that their statistical similarities make them strong comparables for Bautista, but neither side will gain much traction from using Scott Rolen or Carlos Lee as comparables, because of the service time (and free agency) gap.

Richard S.S. - Thursday, January 20 2011 @ 04:54 AM EST (#228950) #

Make the assumption that Marc Rzepczynski is in the Starting Rotation.  

Jon Rauch, Octavio Dotel, Carlos Villanueva and David Purcey are in the bullpen.   Shawn Camp, Jason Frasor and Casey Janssen all have better numbers than any of our LHP.  

My question is:

Who is the second LHP in the Bullpen? 

China fan - Thursday, January 20 2011 @ 07:08 AM EST (#228952) #
A couple of months ago, AA said that he could not get a deal done with Bautista and that they needed direction from the arbitrator about his current worth.     Do you have a source on that?  I'd like to see AA's actual words, because I'd be surprised if he explicitly stated that he preferred to go to arbitration with Bautista.  With the team's long history of avoiding arbitration, and with AA's personal history of creative contract-writing, I would think that AA would prefer to avoid arbitration on any player if he can.     Personally, if I were Bautista, I wouldn't do a deal until after the arbitration.     Is this very common?  I am asking not to be argumentative but simply because I don't know.  Are there many cases of a player going to arbitration, getting a contract decision from the arbitrator, and later tearing it up and negotiating a multi-year deal with the same team?  By the time the arbitration hearings are over and decisions are made, it's already spring training and I would think it becomes more difficult to negotiate a deal.     Your basic point seems to make sense:  if the Jays can win an arbitration case against Bautista, it gives them a lot of leverage in negotiating a multi-year deal that would be acceptable to both sides.  But no matter how diplomatic AA is in his public comments, no matter how much he talks about "lines of communication" and "goodwill" and so on, I think Bautista is going to be unhappy if he goes to arbitration with the Jays.  As many observers have pointed out, the player and his agent will hear a lot of negative things from the team in the arbitration hearing, and AA can't simply wave his diplomatic wand and make it magically disappear.
China fan - Thursday, January 20 2011 @ 07:15 AM EST (#228953) #

For what it's worth, Jeremy Sandler in the National Post argues that the Jays should have coughed up a bit more money to avoid an arbitration hearing with Bautista.

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/01/19/arbitration-could-cost-jays-more-than-cash/

Thomas - Thursday, January 20 2011 @ 09:26 AM EST (#228954) #
Who is the second LHP in the Bullpen?

Well, the answer as to which LH reliever is the furthest up on the club's depth charts, if Rzepczynski is a starter in Toronto or Las Vegas, is probably Jesse Carlson. However, your question presupposes that the team needs a second left-hander in the bullpen. I'm not convinced that's necessary (and even breaking camp with 6 right-hander relievers wouldn't mean much, as injuries or poor performance will likely open a spot before too long has passed).

Mike Green - Thursday, January 20 2011 @ 09:36 AM EST (#228955) #
Here's one AA link from October.  He speaks of the possibility of using "the arbitration process as a guide" for the Bautista negotiations.  That is one way of phrasing it. 

My perspective is that Bautista holds the cards.  Even if he loses the arbitration (which I think is quite unlikely), he is in great shape to earn Werth money or better next year from the Yankees or someone else.  It may be that all of this is prelude to a trade.

Geoff - Thursday, January 20 2011 @ 10:38 AM EST (#228959) #
On the topic of tallest pitchers, while Ryan Doherty appears to be out of professional baseball, Rauch may yet be eclipsed by the kid that the Twins traded to LA for Brian Fuentes: young man by the name of Loek Van Mil.

The Dutch Giant stands 7'1" and once held the distinction of being highlighted as half of a Twin tower duo for Minnesota.
92-93 - Thursday, January 20 2011 @ 11:55 AM EST (#228962) #

Guys, the CBA is your friend, and it's written in English. The answers lie within.

This shall not limit the ability of a Player or his representative, because of special accomplishment, to argue the equal relevance of salaries of Players without regard to service, and the arbitration panel shall give whatever weight to such argument as is deemed appropriate.

Bautista's entire case, I believe, relies on heavy weight being given to this final clause. The emphasis is mine.

Mike Green - Thursday, January 20 2011 @ 12:09 PM EST (#228963) #
My understanding is that arbitrators have very, very infrequently applied this provision, and that if Bautista was seriously going to argue it, he would be asking for $12 million or more.  I think that he is likely to win without it. 



Mylegacy - Thursday, January 20 2011 @ 02:40 PM EST (#228973) #
DaBautista's 2010 homer eruption was unprecidented. I hope the guy gets his number. I think he will.

I also think he'll not be a Jay in 2012 for three reasons - 1) We won't sign him to a three to five year contract this year because of the REAL doubt as to what we're paying for. 2) IF - 2011 is a near repeat of 2010 - we won't sign him long term because it'll take a six or 7 year contract - and we won't go that far. 3) The guy turns back into a pumpkin in 2011 and we don't want the guy and or he regresses so much we are uncertain of what he might be going forward.

Unfortunately, Jose is gone after 2011. Either part of a BLOCKBUSTER trade, with several of our pitching prospects - for at least TWO SERIOUS STUDS --- OR ---- we get the two (hopefully) draft choices for him.

Speaking of Draft Choices, Matt Garrioch (who took over from Andy Seiler on the Draft Blog) says that the 2010 Draft had about "40 first round quality guys" - he says the 2011 draft has about "75 first round quality guys" - why so interesting? We've got 7 of the first 75 players in the 2011 draft. Yummy - IF it wasn't for the fact that the Rays have about 600 of the first 100 in the draft we'd be the talk of baseball.

Thomas - Thursday, January 20 2011 @ 02:51 PM EST (#228975) #
My understanding is that arbitrators have very, very infrequently applied this provision, and that if Bautista was seriously going to argue it, he would be asking for $12 million or more.

I agree. I don't think Bautista would get very far trying to base a substantial degree of his case on that clause. They may include that argument, based on the idea of special accomplishments of 2010, but it won't be the basis of the case. It's very hard to argue the comparables are informative if they have significantly more service time and games played and have secured their contract on the free agent market. The Jays would counter by arguing Bautista is comparing apples to oranges and thus the arbitrator must base his ruling on their set of comparables.

earlweaverfan - Thursday, January 20 2011 @ 03:06 PM EST (#228978) #
We won't sign him to a three to five year contract this year because of the REAL doubt as to what we're paying for

I understand this point of view - I would have trouble pulling this kind of trigger this soon with this amount of data myself, but...

I find it interesting that AA was willing to spend more than $20MM on Chapman on very limited data, and is kicking himself on not spending more than $30MM.  He lately has been attributing that decision to not having gotten enough information about Chapman before having to put in his bid. 

Well, Bautista has provided the Jays with almost a year and a half of information right in front of their eyes - far more than they ever could have received on Chapman.  I can imagine that AA, given his usual pattern, would have gotten every one of his relevant scouts and coaches into the act of sharing their own evaluation of whether Jose is for real, or not.  So, unless those scouts are all over the map on this one, I can imagine AA deciding with some confidence just how much Jose is worth to him and making that offer.  Whether Jose is willing to accept that is, of course, another matter entirely.

Yummy - IF it wasn't for the fact that the Rays have about 600 of the first 100 in the draft we'd be the talk of baseball.

On another site, I just saw a discussion of the Rays not having an unlimited draft budget, and showing what they spent last year.  If they have more top picks than they can afford to pay slot for, will they go further down the list, skipping over some more expensive prospects?

Do we have any sense of how our budget might stack up to theirs, and whether that difference might give us an advantage?


Mylegacy - Thursday, January 20 2011 @ 03:30 PM EST (#228982) #
Simple - Bautista is 30 in 2011 - Chapman will be 23 in 2011.

As to the Ray's budget: KLAW in his chat today answered that very question - he expects the Ray's to have over 10 million and he expects them to sign their picks - even if a few get over slot. As to the Jay's - I would suggest we have every penny AA thinks he will need - and - if at the last second something makes AA think he will need more - it will be there. The Jay's are into a "get every good young player we can mode. " They will not go cheap in the 2011 draft - you can bank on it!

As I said - Matt Garrioch a Draft guru says that in 2010 there were about "40" first round quality players and this year there will be around "75" - we've got 7 of those 75 - sweet - very sweet. We'll not only get those but we'll get other Dysons, Thons , etc., etc., too.

earlweaverfan - Thursday, January 20 2011 @ 05:56 PM EST (#228989) #
Simple - Bautista is 30 in 2011 - Chapman will be 23 in 2011.

Well, yes, but is it that simple?  So the issue with Chapman seemed to be, 'yes, he seems to have some almightly great stuff, but is he what he seems?  Will his stuff play in North American pro baseball...in the big leagues?  Can he handle the pressure?  And so on...'  AA seems to be saying NOT "I wish I had taken a bigger flyer on the guy" but rather, 'I wish I had gotten more data to reduce my risk in paying a lot more money'. 

The issue with Bautista is 'yes, he had a great September in 2009, a wonderful spring training in 2010, and then kept it going throughout 2010, or rather, accelerated his HR hitting throughout 2010, so that as pitchers got to respect him more he nonetheless hit 33 of his 54 home runs in the second half of the year.  But will he regress seriously in 2011 and beyond?'.  My main point is that AA has far more information to go by.  He can look at how patient a hitter Bautista is, how well he hits different kinds of pitches for HR and how well he lays off other ones.  He can know how skilled and intelligent a hitter JB now is vs., for example, how lucky he got.  He can assess his body type, how well he keeps himself in shape, and so many other factors.  As with assessing any player, there are always unknowns.

With Chapman, the unknowns were far, far greater, the available data to judge those unknowns by far thinner, while arguably, the upside is much greater.  Partly the upside has to do with age (THAT is the simple part)  and partly with his phenomenal stuff.  But on the other hand, we always say around here that pitchers are notoriously hard to predict how they will progress, especially because of the risk of injury, and whether they will come back from injury.  The Nationals were all too well aware of that factor, in this year of years.

With JB, the unknowns are mostly centred around:  'Will JB regress seriously in 2011 and beyond?'  Obviously, there are two elements to that.  The first is whether late 2009 and 2010 were a lucky fluke - if so, his performance would likely decline, no matter his age.  The second is whether, as a 30-year old posiiton player, his performance was likely to decline over the course of an (at least) 3-year contract.  Even here, I think there is plenty of information for AA to consider.  Some player types decline a lot more rapidly than others - how does JB compare to either end of that spectrum? 

So to sum up, I do not argue that AA should hand JB a 5-year contract.  The most I would support is three years.  Nor that AA should pay more than an average of $12MM per year, including incentives.  That amount might not get the job done, so JB may be gone as you say.

What I do believe is that AA likely has all the information he will need to place a confident bet on JB and make a contract extension offer NOW (by contrast to where he found himself in the Chapman bidding war).

If he does not make such an offer, it will be because he has other plans along the lines that you mention.
92-93 - Thursday, January 20 2011 @ 07:09 PM EST (#228992) #
I don't understand any comparison of Bautista with Chapman. Bautista is 31 and keeping him would not only cost the price of his extension - you have to factor in his potential to bring back a Brett Lawrie type prospect or 2 early draft picks. So when you choose Bautista you are choosing between Jose Bautista or top prospect/draft picks + spending that $ on FA talent. Chapman, on the other hand, is an investment in your future, and not signing him doesn't earn the club more potential value like it would with Bautista.

I really hate the 30m figure floated around for Chapman, because it doesn't accurately portray what CIN did there. First of all, the 16.5m signing bonus is spread over an 11 year period in 12 different installments. Secondly, the last 5m of the deal are a player option that is only going to be picked up in a worst case scenario. If you take a step back and analyze the contract you see that while CIN did indeed guarantee 30.25m, the most they are risking in any given year by signing Chapman is 2015's 6.25m.

Even if Chapman busted/busts it wouldn't have really effected the way the Blue Jays operate on the field over the life of his contract (heck, the Mets are still paying Bobby Bonilla over 1m a year till we all die). Guaranteeing over 10m yearly to Bautista for 2012-2013 when you aren't even sure you're close to contending (they certainly aren't acting like they are) has nothing to do with risking a few million a year for the insane potential an arm like Chapman's possesses, and would confuse me in light of everything else AA has done this offseason. Unless AA knows of a team that's willing to part with prospects for Bautista but can't do it without a degree of cost certainty I really hope there's no Bautista extension.
92-93 - Thursday, January 20 2011 @ 07:32 PM EST (#228995) #
AA on JB @ Brock U. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elXP2yma-hY&feature=youtu.be
TamRa - Thursday, January 20 2011 @ 09:15 PM EST (#229003) #
Guys, the CBA is your friend, and it's written in English. The answers lie within.

With all due respect - when the GM has spoken SPECIFICALLY to the point in question, I'm gonna roll with his interpretation.


Even your quote says the arbitrator will exercise his own discretion how much weight to give to that.

Saying that the player can make the argument is NOT the same thing as saying it is ever an effective argument.
92-93 - Friday, January 21 2011 @ 11:36 AM EST (#229014) #
With all due respect, you need to listen to the interview again. His comment about service time being a massive component was in response to McCown's surprise about Morrow's high 2.3m salary. It wasn't extended to Bautista, and even it were, it doesn't change the fact that the CBA provides a stipulation that would allow Bautista's side to ignore service time.
Thomas - Friday, January 21 2011 @ 12:26 PM EST (#229018) #
It wasn't extended to Bautista, and even it were, it doesn't change the fact that the CBA provides a stipulation that would allow Bautista's side to ignore service time.

As TamRa says, the presence of the clause does not mean it's an effective path for an argument. I would be very surprised if Bautista tried to base any substantial portion of his case on this clause and shocked if it succeeded. Free agency and arbitration are two different beasts and the price on the former market does not inform the decisions of arbitrators.

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