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Bullpen as weak link, Gregg as Matsuzaka, Downs as icon, Roenicke as Purcey, and absolutely no idea what next year's pen looks like.


How They Did

Not great. Here's where they ranked in a few important stats:



By almost every measure of performance, this was a below-average bullpen. It still did more good than harm, according to the run expectancy tables that spit out WPA stats. However, given that (1) offense was way down this year and (2) bullpens tend to outperform starters, a 0.38 WPA is unimpressive. (The Jays' starters had 3.25 WPA, second-best in the AL. As a unit, compared to the hitters, fielders and relievers, they were clearly the strength of the team.)

I'm going to harp on WPA more than the other stats here. The bullpen, as a whole, should be evaluated based on its contribution to helping the team win. I try to avoid reducing things to one catch-all stat, but it's handy to have a measure of what the Jays' pen did to help them win games. To do that, it's ideal to use a stat that emphasizes high-leverage situations. WPA fits that bill. (I guess we might as well run through the standard WPA disclaimer: it's not park-adjusted, it's based on stale run expectancy tables, those tables don't know who's on deck, and so on.)

Here are the individual bullpen stats that added up to those totals. (Others: Brad Mills threw 7 innings. Jeremy Accardo, Robert Ray, Taylor Buchholz, Merkin Valdez and Marc Rzepczynski made cameos. Brian Tallet also started 5 games, which I left out of those numbers.)



A few things jumped out at me. One was Kevin Gregg's -0.86 WPA.

Here's how the other AL closers did:

Joakim Soria 4.65
Rafael Soriano 4.06
Neftali Feliz 3.35
Chris Perez 2.49
Brian Fuentes 2.32
Mariano Rivera 2.24
Matt Capps 1.69
Andrew Bailey 1.59
Jose Valverde 1.35
Jonathan Papelbon 1.05
Mike Gonzalez 0.00 (Koji Uehara 1.27)
David Aardsma -0.18
Bobby Jenks -0.24 (Matt Thornton 2.93)

Nevertheless, I am happy to back off my stance that the Kevin Gregg signing was atrocious. After you adjust for the AL East, he was arguably an above-average reliever.

The Kevin Gregg Experience

Gregg had a few bad outings, but they never snowballed. He stabilized the position. This is exactly what last-place teams are looking for in a free-agent closer. When wins and losses don’t really matter, it’s fine to be the worst closer in the league as long as you’re consistent and credible. There’s no shame in it, either. Closers, as a group, are so good that being 14th best is not a crime. I would say that, against all odds, the Jays made out well on the Gregg signing. I was very opposed to it at the time, and I wouldn’t do it again, but I’m happy to be wrong.

In fact, I actually found Gregg to be the most interesting pitcher on the 2010 Jays – impressive when the competition includes a TJ success story, a diabetic rushed-phenom-turned-bust-turned-phenom, an unheralded ace reliever with the majors’ dirtiest curveball, a pie-throwing groundball machine who K'd 9 Yankees in 4 innings, the franchise top prospect, and Brian Tallet. Gregg is notable for many reasons – for starters, his glasses, his confident mound presence, and his daring choice of entrance music, a neo-Nashville cover of Hank Williams, Jr.’s “A Country Boy Can Survive.”

Beyond the superficial stuff, Gregg completely overhauled his pitching style at some point last winter, and transformed from an NL Central arsonist to an AL East closer. The 2009 Kevin Gregg was a fastball/slider guy. The 2010 Kevin Gregg used a nasty cut fastball more than 25% of the time, a pitch he had never featured, and something he hadn’t used regularly in three years. It turned out to be very effective. Gregg pitched off his fastball and cutter with a big slurve. It was a competely different approach, and it worked, which is remarkable.

Gregg was also an unrepentant nibbler who refused to challenge hitters under any circumstances. 4.3 pitches per PA is very, very high for a pitcher – that’s a number reserved for the Jack Custs and Adam Dunns of the world. Kevin Gregg made the average hitter look as selective as David Ortiz. This was frustrating to watch at times, but nibbling does tend to depress HR rate and BABIP, and Gregg never got hit particularly hard. I actually think this approach probably got the most out of his talent.

In short, Kevin Gregg reinvented himself as the reliever version of Daisuke Matsuzaka. And it worked.

Almost all recent Blue Jay relievers have been, or at least tried to be, strike throwers. The Kevin Gregg experience was totally different. I like watching diverse players, and in a rebuilding year, I did kind of enjoy watching Gregg do his thing. Maybe he'll be even better next year. (I'm still throwing the book at Joaquin Benoit.)

Appreciating Scott Downs

Another pitcher who's in line for a big contract is Scott Downs, who turned in a typically excellent season as a high-leverage reliever. I saw a comment somewhere the other day – I won't rehash it here – suggesting that the Jays shouldn't bring Scott Downs back next year because they've tried him and it didn't work. Now, I probably wouldn't pay Downs the money he will command on the open market. By letting Downs walk, the Jays will gain a compensation draft pick, and anyway it's likely that Downs' next contract will be so big that its trade value on April 1 will be roughly zero. But the idea that Downs should be replaced because he's inadequate? That's nuts.

This calls for some perspective on Scott Downs. Here are his total stats as a relief pitcher for the Toronto Blue Jays, from 2005 to 2010.

329 appearances
323.1 innings pitched
2.59 ERA
5.36 WPA
Opponents hit .219/.292/.329
20.5% K
8.4% BB
1.8% HR
57% GB

There is no cherry-picking at all here. These stats include his early struggles and his battles with injury. They scream out that Downs has consistently been very good.

I’d go so far as to say Scott Downs is the most accomplished Blue Jays relief pitcher of the past 17 years. Who’s better? Paul Quantrill? Dan Plesac? Kelvim Escobar, B.J. Ryan, Billy Koch, Tanyon Sturtze... the floor is open to suggestions, but I think Downs beats them all. I’m going to miss him.

Easing David Purcey In

One nice thing about the 12-man pitching staff is that it lets you ease a pitcher or two into the majors in low-leverage situations. The White Sox are very good at this kind of thing – think of Sergio Santos and Matt Thornton as examples of projects who put it together at the big-league level. It’s exactly what Cito Gaston did with David Purcey. In each of Purcey’s first 10 appearances, he entered with the Jays trailing. One time, the score was 1-0; the other nine times, the outcome of the game was long decided. Purcey racked up a 2.25 ERA over those 10 appearances and forced his way into some higher-leverage situations. He continued to pitch well the rest of the way. (In fact, his total stats are inflated wildly by two bad showings later in the year, both in blowouts. He did well with the spotlight on him.) It’s an open question whether Purcey will actually be a reliable reliever going forward, but his 2010 was encouraging.

Personally, I hope the Jays give this treatment to Josh Roenicke next year. Roenicke has very little to prove in the minors, and his talent speaks for itself, but he’s always been hit hard in the majors. He's 28 and running out of time to break into the show. If it worked for Purcey...

The 2011 Bullpen: internal candidates

There are a lot of question marks, and a lot of plausible pitchers. Like...

Gregg (FA): Thanks for the memories. I'd be surprised if he didn't earn a multi-year deal with his performance this year.
Downs (FA): See Gregg. A hefty three-year contract probably isn’t worth the risk.
Camp: Most reliable righty reliever on the team this year, and a no-brainer tender. He’s come a long way. Camp pitches like a softer-tossing Tim Hudson. Would be one of the least charismatic closers in baseball history, and if he’s the best reliever on the team, the pen is probably going to be below average again. However, bringing him back for 2011 is an easy decision. (Unless someone wants to trade for him...)
Frasor (FA): I have absolutely no idea what the market for his services is going to look like. Not worth $9 million over 2 years; certainly worth $1.5 million over one year. 
Purcey: A lock for next year’s bullpen, and deservedly so, but I’m not convinced yet. Although he was almost unhittable in 30-some innings last year, he’s an enormous flyball pitcher with a history of control issues. If he can keep a lid on the walks, he might just be a very effective short reliever. Fingers crossed.
Janssen: Missed more bats than usual. Got hit harder than usual. Still a big-league pitcher, far as I can tell.
Carlson: Trick pitcher. You’d probably want to have another lefty or two beyond Purcey.
Roenicke: I’d carry him as the 12th man, as a project, regardless of who else is in the pen. 
Rzepczynski: A starter with serious upside, scouts be damned, but he tends to run deep counts and tire out. In the bullpen those aren’t really issues, so I have little doubt that he’d be an effective reliever, if the Jays are convinced that Drabek is ready to be given the ball every fifth day. I still see him as a starter in the long view, but this year, Toronto needs bullpen arms more.
Morrow: Just kidding.
Buchholz: Whatever. (And this is my United States of Whatever.) Buchholz had outstanding peripherals for a Colorado pitcher before an elbow injury derailed him in 2009, so maybe he was brought in to be something more than a warm body. No harm in buying a lottery ticket, as long as you can assess whether it's a winner.
Mills: Why not? Could be useful as a change of pace guy, while he bides his time before he’s inevitably traded to the NL.
Accardo: My lying eyes say he gets hit harder, and more often, than any Jays pitcher since Josh Towers. I’m ready to turn the page, but the stats aren’t so sure. I will trust the team’s judgement here.
Richmond: Devastating slider, control, not much else. One-trick ponies do better as short relievers. People used to think Chad Gaudin was a future closer, right?
Ray: See Mills.
Magnuson and Farquhar: I have no idea and will defer to the minor-league experts. I certainly wouldn’t dismiss either out of hand, especially not Magnuson.
Stewart: Probably a long shot to start the year in the majors. But if he continues to pitch like he did in the second half this year, he could make the leap anytime. If the Jays contend, they’re likely to have a few useful secret weapons waiting in the minors.
Hill: Starter or bust?
Lewis: After a respectable stint in the majors, he had a sore shoulder and was shut down. Hard to count on him for anything.
Drabek: Doesn’t fancy himself a relief pitcher.
McGowan: Who knows?
Hentgen: For closer.
Sturtze: Free agent.

It would be nice to pick up a good veteran reliever on the sly. If Gregg or Frasor (or, miraculously, Downs) could be had cheaply, I'd welcome them back. The market for relievers is unpredictable. Joaquin Benoit would be a nice pickup, and if the Red Sox could be sold on trading Jonathan Papelbon's contract for nothing, I'd pull the trigger on that, too. At some point, the Jays will need to find themselves a dominant short reliever. Sure, you can win without one, but it's hard. The closers' WPA scores speak for themselves.

Who's actually going to make the team next year? Your guess is at least as good as mine, and probably better. It'll be an interesting winter.
2010 Blue Jays Year in Review: Relief Pitching | 44 comments | Create New Account
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Mike Green - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 08:53 AM EST (#225187) #
Excellent, Alex.  As they used to say on Sesame Street, let's count: Camp (1), Purcey (2), Carlson (3), Janssen (4), Roenicke (5), Rzepczynski (6), and a bunch of other options including Stewart.  It looks to me like they need an ace and nothing else.  One of Purcey or Stewart might be it. 
Mick Doherty - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 09:50 AM EST (#225188) #
Alex, is Downs  gone for sure? I had mot heard that. A guy who's spent 8.5 of his nine MLB seasons in Canada seems at least marginally likely to consider coming back. And besides, as a lefty reliever heading into his age-35 season, he could well pitch another eight or nine years! :-)
Jonny German - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 10:48 AM EST (#225189) #
Very nice Alex. Till-esque in parts, even.
 
I think it's true that Downs could well be effective for several more years. But there's no guarantee (especially if you let him bat), and I think it's likely that Toronto's best offer will be topped dollar-wise by a team that Downs perceives as more likely to make the playoffs in the near term.
China fan - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 11:07 AM EST (#225190) #

Thanks for the excellent post.  It's a great analysis, and I generally agree with all of it.  My only quibble is that it's a tad too optimistic on the internal bullpen options if Downs, Gregg and Frasor all depart.   I think there are lots of questions and doubts about most of the internal options.  Camp and Purcey are the only ones that I trust, and it's unclear if either is capable of being the closer.  Every other option has plenty of questions surrounding them.  Janssen -- let's hope that his 2010 was still affected by the lingering influence of his earlier injury, because he didn't seem reliable in high-leverage situations in 2010.  Roenicke and Carlsson are not exactly spring chickens and they spent most of last year in the minors, which really doesn't fill me with confidence about them.  Buchholz and Zep could be good relievers, or they might not.

What's definitely true is that the Jays have plenty of options.  That's nice, but quantity isn't always superior to quality.  Sheer numerical quantity isn't enough to solve the problem.  There's a definite risk of a decline by the bullpen next season if Downs, Gregg and Frasor all depart.  Could it be a rebuilding year that contributes to a stronger 2012?  Maybe, or maybe not.  But if there are no net additions to the bullpen -- no free-agent signings or trades -- the Jays will probably have to write off the season as another rebuilding year.  Why do that when the team could be benefiting next year from a fast-improving young rotation and a chance of improvement in the offence too?  I know that some people favor a full rebuilding strategy with not even an attempt to contend until 2012 at the earliest, but I just don't agree.  Even if there's only a 10 per cent chance of contending in 2011, why should the Jays sabotage that 10 per cent chance by letting the bullpen deteriorate?

ayjackson - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 11:45 AM EST (#225191) #
I think if all three decline Arb, AA will be in the market to add an arm or two.  With a closer job open, it might be a good opportunity to attract somebody on a one-year audition in the role (or an attempt to re-establish themselves as a closer).
Jonny German - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 11:51 AM EST (#225192) #
I was thinking JJ Putz might fit that "one-year to re-establish himself as a closer", but I see he got $3M from the White Sox to be a setup man in 2010 despite being terrible and injured in 2009... so he might be expensive and looking for more than 1 year.
Mike Green - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 12:08 PM EST (#225193) #
Farrell is, by reputation, a very smart guy.  I wonder if he might be someone who could break from the prevailing "slave to the save" closer usage and go for a late 70s/early 80s ace instead. 
John Northey - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 12:46 PM EST (#225194) #
With the pen I'd lean towards trusting scouts and finding who they recommend as breakout candidates who are in the low-end free agent market (ie: not type A). If any of the 3 FA's decide to come back via arbitration, fine, but not a major factor either way.

A mix and match for closer is what I expect, with everyone trying to figure out roles for April & May with a couple shifting into solid closer/setup roles by the All-Star break if not earlier.

If the Red Sox decide to dump their closer (ie: a B level prospect is all it takes) then great. Worst case he is an expensive trade ($) for a draft pick in 2012, best case he is a killer closer for a year.

I suspect many bullpen arms (or potential ones) will be dealt in the winter in an effort to improve somewhere. I do not expect a big effort to be made to re-populate it though.

Remember, Frasor came here in an end of April trade for Jayson Werth (who was about to be released iirc), Downs was released by the Expos/Nationals before coming here, and Gregg was viewed as a 'why did you do that' free agent signing. Relievers can be had cheaply, and are extremely hard to predict.
ramone - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 12:54 PM EST (#225195) #
From Listening to Farrell on the Fan today it's sounds like the Jays think they can upgrade over Gregg via free agency this year. 
Matthew E - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 01:06 PM EST (#225196) #
I agree. Almost never would I shell out big bucks or top prospects to improve a bullpen; there are always guys around you can use. If your organization has anything on the ball at all it can put together a serviceable bullpen out of scrapmetal and doughnuts, and that's at minimum. (And if your organization doesn't have anything on the ball at all, it probably has bigger problems than just the bullpen.) The Jays had an adequate bullpen in '10, and they'll have another one in '11 even if Downs and Frasor and Gregg all walk, if Anthopoulos and Farrell have any kind of a clue.
Flex - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 01:57 PM EST (#225197) #
Speaking of that Krystal interview with Farrell -- nice job, John, keeping a lid on your irritation in the face of some of the most idiotic questions ever.

eg. "There's a real beauty to baseball, isn't there?"

Mylegacy - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 01:59 PM EST (#225198) #
Interestingly, no one has mentioned my personal favorite - Alan Farina. Alan will be 24 at some point next year, is presently being brilliant in the AFL and has been basically brilliant in our minors now for several years. I prefer him to either Farquhar or Magnuson and I quite like both those guys.

By the All-Star break I expect Alan to be a serious part of the Jay's pen - filling a role, with similar results, to what Downs did in 2010.

MatO - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 02:10 PM EST (#225199) #

It's true that Farina gets no respect here.  He was terrific last year.  I'd rate him higher than Magnusson or Farquhar.

I hope the Jays take a serious look at Benoit of the Rays who had a Chris Carpenter-like season where he pitched better than he ever has after having major shoulder surgery and missing an entire season.  He had ridiculous numbers as a setup guy.  I'd go multi-year at a reasonable price.

Richard S.S. - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 02:15 PM EST (#225200) #

Even if there's only a 10 per cent chance of contending in 2011, why should the Jays sabotage that 10 per cent chance by letting the bullpen deteriorate?

Exactly.   We were 10th out of 14 teams last season.   Bringing back Downs, Gregg or Frasor doesn't make the team better.   It just keeps us 10th.   Filling those openings from within doesn't makes us better, or we would've been better last year.   I don't recommend 7 new guys, (yes I do),  but we do have those three openings.

Sign or trade for the best possible closer you can get, no matter the cost.   Ideally, you'll want 3 years from this aquisition.   It sends a message to the fans, and to the team that we are serious.

Sign or trade for the best possible reliever you can get.   Hopefully, he can setup and possibly close or otherwise pitch when it matters.   (Relievers do have a track record.)

Keep the best four relievers you've can find out of too many relievers who might not be good enough.   Six relievers should be enough, if you've got the right people.   If you don't, there's never enough.   If you feel you need another, add the best project with the most upside.   Anyone not good enough to keep, are gone.

Dave Till - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 02:19 PM EST (#225201) #
I did not know that Kevin Gregg was the worst closer in the American League last year. So this post was most instructive. Thank you!

The "Gregg versus potential replacement" issue is just one example of how tough the road ahead will be for the Jays. The Jays will probably be able to find somebody better than Gregg, but it will be difficult for them to find somebody who is one of the five best closers in the league - the teams that have one will likely keep him. And the Jays will need one of the very best closers (among other things) if they want to move from the 85 win level to playoff contention.

Especially if the Yankees spend one squillion zillion jillion dollars and sign Cliff Lee.



Mike Green - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 02:36 PM EST (#225202) #
WPA can oversimplify things.  Brian Fuentes didn't have much of a year as a closer, walking 20 and striking out 47 in 48 innings while being taken deep 5 times.  His season looks a lot better than Gregg's primarily because the Angels gifted him with a .227 opposition BABIP despite a very low IF rate and a league average LD rate. 
Matthew E - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 02:49 PM EST (#225203) #
I don't think that's true; what's the difference in wins between one of the five best closers in the game and an average competent closer? Can't be that much.

Look, the bullpen is mostly just a detail. It's an amorphous group of pitchers with high year-to-year turnover and pitches a minority of your team's innings. There's no point in even worrying about how good it is until you're ready to go for the gold. If the Jays can add talent to their bullpen without giving up much, then fine, I approve. But it'd be silly to shoot the works on a high-profile closer, because the extra two wins that would get them (assuming the high-profile closer lived up to his billing, which is not automatic) would just take them from 82-80 to 84-78. And it's not worth sweating the details at this point because, by the time the Jays are ready to win anything worth mentioning, normal bullpen turnover will have changed everything anyway.

Right now the Jays have a good young starting rotation that's stacked deeper than I ever thought possible. Fine. Not that there's no room for improvement or that they can afford to take their eye off the ball when it comes to the starting pitching, but the rotation is not a problem that requires a solution.

The position players are a problem. Hardly anybody gets on base, not everybody plays good defense, who's going to be the regular catcher, who's going to play first base, who's going to play third base. This is the kind of stuff the Jays have to worry about; these are real problems. Once they're solved, or most of them are solved, anyway, then there'll be time to go after third catchers and pinch-hitters and second lefthanders and closers who are better than your closer.

Magpie - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 03:01 PM EST (#225204) #
Sign or trade for the best possible closer you can get, no matter the cost.

Like B.J. Ryan? Or Randy Myers?

I think it's always good to Grow Your Own.
China fan - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 03:01 PM EST (#225205) #
I agree that the position players should be the priority for Anthopolous at the moment.  But the difference between a bad bullpen and a good bullpen has GOT to be worth more than two wins over the course of a 162-game season.   And if three good relievers depart, leaving the Jays without a decent closer or set-up man, the bullpen will be worse than average.  Investing a few million in a couple of free-agent relievers would reverse that.
Magpie - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 03:02 PM EST (#225206) #
And what Matthew just said. Every word.
Thomas - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 03:34 PM EST (#225207) #
Speaking of that Krystal interview with Farrell -- nice job, John, keeping a lid on your irritation in the face of some of the most idiotic questions ever.

Krystal is terrible. At least with the questions about the coaches, he just let Farrell talk about them. While a better interviewer would have had more insightful or educational questions, those open-ended questions were worse than him asking Farrell who the closer was.

But it'd be silly to shoot the works on a high-profile closer, because the extra two wins that would get them (assuming the high-profile closer lived up to his billing, which is not automatic) would just take them from 82-80 to 84-78.

However, the difference may be larger if you add a Soria or Nathan to a bullpen (say the 2010 Jays bullpen) that already has a pre-existing closer, because Soria, for example, would be taking over Gregg's innings and Gregg would take over Downs's innings and the team would end up removing Tallet or Rommie Lewis or whomever from the end of the pen.

I don't disagree with anything you just said in terms of where the Jays should be focusing during the offseason and the amorphous nature of bullpens. I'd like to see the Jays bring in an arm like Benoit or Rauch if the price and terms are right and I think AA can probably find a couple of arms worth signing to minor league contracts to see if they pan out. However, if the price isn't right than don't sign anyone. Two years down the road, if the team had the same bullpen, I'd suggest making a run at Heath Bell or signing Soriano, but that's not where the team should be spending money right now.

Matthew E - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 03:36 PM EST (#225208) #
But the difference between a bad bullpen and a good bullpen has GOT to be worth more than two wins over the course of a 162-game season.

I'm sure it is. The two-win difference I was talking about was the difference between a top closer and an average closer.

If the Jays had a bad bullpen, I'd worry. They don't. They have an average one. If you're sharp, it's possible to go from an average (or bad) bullpen to a good bullpen without expending many resources. I'm cool with the Jays doing that, but it's not the top priority.
China fan - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 03:50 PM EST (#225209) #

...They have an average one.....

Yes, but they won't have an average bullpen if Downs, Gregg and Frasor depart and AA fails to acquire any adequate replacements.   It doesn't have to be $12 million for BJ Ryan, but it has to be more than a couple of C-grade guys from the reject pile.  The Jays spent almost $9-million for the services of Downs, Gregg and Frasor this past season.  If all of them depart, I'd like Anthopolous to spend $9-million to replace them.  Seems like a reasonable budget for a decent closer and two other reliable relievers.  The internal candidates simply aren't good enough. 

ayjackson - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 03:52 PM EST (#225210) #

On the subject of the Jays position players, Bill James has his projections out and available at Fangraphs.  The projections for returning Jays looks to be a good foundation for the offense (by wOBA):

.373 Bautista - RF
.362 Lind - DH/1B
.362 Snider - LF
.345 Wells - CF
.332 Escobar - SS
.330 Hill - 2B

(.340 EE, FLew)

People like to mock James for being too optimistic (mug's game), I think he just tries to correct a computer program that projects everyone too close to the mean.

 

Matthew E - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 04:13 PM EST (#225211) #
it has to be more than a couple of C-grade guys from the reject pile

What about A-grade guys from the reject pile? There are always some.

Again, I don't mind if the Jays spend a million here and a million there on some useful arms. Honestly I don't. I could see a bullpen of Purcey, Roenicke, Buchholz, Camp, and Janssen being just fine, but if the Jays want to augment it judiciously, then that's okay by me. What's your figure--9 million for three guys? That's small potatoes for the Jays; nobody could object to that (if it's the right three guys, anyway). I'm just saying a) that overpaying for what's left of (say) Mariano Rivera is not money well spent, and b) this team has bigger fish to fry in the first place.
scottt - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 05:03 PM EST (#225212) #
Apart from the ground ball ratio, Purcey and Gregg's numbers are surprisingly similar.

With Cito at the bar, it was important to have a great closer, a very good setup man and a good 7th inning guy. With Farrell, I'm not so sure.

I don't see why the starting rotation can be young but the bullpen would require vets.



TamRa - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 05:30 PM EST (#225213) #
let's hope that his 2010 was still affected by the lingering influence of his earlier injury, because he didn't seem reliable in high-leverage situations in 2010.

I'm not sure that follows - if the injury effects li8ngered, there is no rational reason (that I can see) why it should create MORE problems in high leverage situations than in less critical situations.

I think the idea that he faltered in high leverage situations is probably more an emotional impression than reality anyway, but I'm not where I can look it up right now.



earlweaverfan - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 06:28 PM EST (#225214) #
There is stuff I don't know that would be critical for these choices, but count me on the side of wanting a bullpen that is no better, but no worse than our starting rotation.  To my mind, if we think it is worthwhile to try for an outstanding rotation, and given that the choice of Farrell seems to reinforce the importance of those  starters to AA and his brains trust, then I can't see why (tight money aside) we would go for average to below average relievers.  Here are the ones I would pursue from the FA pool:
  • Downs - I read today a prediction that he won't attract the big 3-year deal that you might think, as he is a Type A, but not a closer. Will teams be willing to give up a draft pick when they do not get someone who wants to close?  I think we might be able to cut a strong 2-year deal, with a club optional third year.  I know that relievers are unpredictable, but has anyone been more predictable than SD over the time he has been with us?
  • Benoit - a potential closer, but without a saves record.  I also seem him as someone to make sure does not go to any of our AL East rivals - I would be willing to overpay here, even offering a 3-year package
  • Crain - I think AA would love to have a real live Canajun on his staff, and he had a great bounce back year; two years plus a club option
Then I would round out the pen with the following in descending order of preference:
  • Camp
  • Purcey
  • Farina
  • Rzepczynski
I would let Gregg, Frasor, and Tallet go on their own, and be willing to trade Carlson and Janssen, if they would materially strengthen a trade package to a team that needs a deeper pen, like the D'backs

This calibre of bullpen would be as good as our three main AL East rivals, but we would not have to pay at closer levels to do so.
Alex Obal - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 07:34 PM EST (#225218) #
Matthew, I see a distinction between production 'wins' (WAR) and performance wins (WPA). Because closers tend to pitch in high-leverage situations, the WPA disparity between a great closer and an OK closer will tend to be much bigger than the WAR disparity. In my view the WPA figures are a more accurate reflection of the value of a lights-out closer.
Matthew E - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 08:12 PM EST (#225220) #
I was doing a rough estimate of actual in-the-standings wins; I don't know how WAR and WPA relate to that or how many of each different relievers may have. I'd still be surprised if it was a big difference.

And when I said:

What's your figure--9 million for three guys? That's small potatoes for the Jays; nobody could object to that (if it's the right three guys, anyway).

I should have added that of course it's even better if you can get one or two guys as good as that for the major league minimum (and you often can!); no point in paying three mil if you don't have to.

Richard S.S. - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 08:18 PM EST (#225222) #
As an easy option in seeking a Closer, if you go here:  http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?teamPosCode=all&statType=2&timeFrame=1&Submit=Submit&c_id=mlb&sitSplit=&venueID=&baseballScope=mlb&timeSubFrame=2010&&sortByStat=SV , you'll see the most significant stat: number of saves, for the number of oportunities for saves.   Look for 2-3 year consistency from your closer here.   Once you've got four you like and one or two maybes, use the other data to refine your choice.   Of course, other GMs are doing the same, you just have to make the best offer.   If you're unwilling to take a risk...
Chuck - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 08:23 PM EST (#225223) #
no point in paying three mil if you don't have to

Not according to Ed Wade.
Chuck - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 08:25 PM EST (#225224) #

you'll see the most significant stat: number of saves, for the number of oportunities for saves

Shirley, you jest.

Alex Obal - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 08:27 PM EST (#225225) #
In WPA world, each team starts each game with a 50% chance of winning. So you can think of 0.50 WPA as one win, one half-game in the standings. Kevin Gregg had -0.86 WPA, while Mariano Rivera had 2.24 – that's a pretty hefty gap. Joakim Soria had 4.65.

In WAR world, stats deemed relevant by the WAR gods are collected into a large pile, and, based on innings pitched and FIP (and other stuff), converted into wins. Gregg had 0.8 WAR, Soria had 2.1. By this measure, the difference is barely noticeable.

Jonny German - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 09:01 PM EST (#225226) #
I think WPA is a neat concept and interesting to look at for individual games, but I'm very wary of looking at it in aggregate. Two examples of where it can be way off:

1) Reliever Bob and Reliever Billy play for the same team. They're both excellent pitchers and toss an equal number of innings with otherwise identical stats, but the manager uses Bob as a long reliever and Billy as the closer; Billy accumulates much more WPA than Bob.

2) The next season Bob is traded to a mediocre team, while Billy stays with the original team which is a powerhouse that runs away on the league. They remain identical performers, but now Bob is also a closer and he puts up a much higher WPA total than Billy because a much higher proportion of his appearances come with a tight score.

WPA, tho refined and interesting, has much the same problem as traditional stats like pitcher Wins and RBI. It tells you about the context of a players performance, but isn't entirely suited to telling you about the quality of his performance.
Alex Obal - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 09:50 PM EST (#225228) #
I more or less agree about limitation #1, Jonny, though I think high-leverage pitching can be more difficult. The idea was just to show that run prevention in the late innings is valuable on a scale that WAR understates.

I'm not so sure about limitation #2. Team badness does not appear to be a powerful determinant of leverage. I would have guessed that Joakim Soria had a higher leverage index than, say, Mo Rivera or Neftali Feliz. But the numbers don't bear this out! Here are the AL leaders in gmLI, Leverage Index Upon Entering The Game:

David Aardsma(?!) 1.90 (in all sincerity, my pick for Worst AL Closer)
Rafael Soriano 1.90
Daniel Bard (!!!) 1.90
Mariano Rivera 1.88
Chris Perez 1.88
Mike Gonzalez 1.87
Jonathan Papelbon 1.85
Neftali Feliz 1.78
Kevin Gregg 1.77
Joakim Soria 1.77
Andrew Bailey 1.67
and it's downhill from there.

There is, of course, also a considerable amount of luck involved in WPA – bottom 9, enter a game leading 3-2, infield hit, E5, passed ball, bloop single, you lose and you're down 79 points.

I certainly don't suggest using WPA to assess the players themselves. Better to think small and look at their more concrete stats.

Dave Rutt - Tuesday, November 09 2010 @ 11:59 PM EST (#225234) #
1) Reliever Bob and Reliever Billy play for the same team. They're both excellent pitchers and toss an equal number of innings with otherwise identical stats, but the manager uses Bob as a long reliever and Billy as the closer; Billy accumulates much more WPA than Bob.

Don't forget that Billy would also accumulate much more negative WPA than Bob because his bad outings would be magnified by the leverage. Given the assumption that they're both excellent pitchers your point remains valid, but maybe the gap wouldn't be quite as large.

In any case, it seems to me WPA is a good tool for comparing different pitchers in the same role - i.e. closers, as Alex has done. WPA can estimate how many wins a great closer is worth over an average one, but not how many wins a great closer is worth over a great long reliever. That comparison might be better left to a non-leverage-based stat.
TamRa - Wednesday, November 10 2010 @ 01:31 AM EST (#225237) #
I was looking over and musing upon the potential for a god otcome in the draft regarindg our Type A guys, and here's a plausable happy ending:

1. The White sox seem interested in maybe making Thornton the closer (non-tendering Jenks?) and if so, they will need a replacement as an excellent late-inning lefty, i.e. sign Scott Downs. That would net us the #23 pick and there's not another type A free agent that seems  to be likely to trump him.

alternate first-round pick destinations: Colorado, St. Lousi, cincinnati, San Francisco (remember when SF signed a type A guy before the deadline to offer arb to free agents on purpose JUST to forfit a draft pick they didn't want to budget for?)

2. Rangers re-sign Cliff Lee and Boston re-signs Beltre, among others and the second Downs pick would be as high as #40

3. Frasor? I cant find a place in the first round unless the Giants decide to donate that first rounder to us this year, but Moore in KC has been known to give ill-advised money to relievers before (most recently Cruz) and that would give us the 5th pick in the 2nd round.

The downside is that there are as many as 30 guys who might get offered arb (and not accept) who are type A or B free agents. The second round would essentially actually be the third, and so forth.

if all the Free agents were offered arb, and rejected, and signed elsewhere, we'd be looking at 9 picks in the first 80 or so.Assuming the above scenarios or something similar.


bpoz - Wednesday, November 10 2010 @ 02:11 PM EST (#225253) #
Richard SS I found your Closer link very informative, thanks. Your method made sense too...BUT as JP Richardi said when you sign a guy long term don't expect every year to be a good one. I agree with him but there are examples where we are wrong and right.

I believe all of us know uncertainties exist. Each team still needs a pen, IMO the construction is year long and criteria change.
1)Luck can make a difference.
2) D Storen WASH got to the ML fast & IMO had success as opposed to failure. My conclusion is that unproven & cheap options do happen, now and then. But will a club hoping to contend consider this.
3)In your link Richard SS I found H Kuo LAD 12Sv,13Svo,60IP 29H,1Hr,18BB,73SO. I find that incredible, it is by far his best year. I don't know if his 2011 will be as good. LAD also have J Broxton, I don't know if his 2010 season was OK,Good or bad and how will his 2011 season be. They both could be Arb eligible based on ML time. Time will tell what LAD can afford and do. Does LAD's closer change? I would not know how to plan for 2011. People may offer some suggestions but I find that it is complicated rather than simple. Maybe just trade H Kuo and either congratulate or curse yourself, its difficult for me. But all of it is so interesting.

IMO currently our best experienced pen arms throw under 95mph, I would hope to add to the 95+mph group.


92-93 - Wednesday, November 10 2010 @ 02:55 PM EST (#225257) #
Matthew E really nailed it.


"Sheer numerical quantity isn't enough to solve the problem."

I would think it would be. If you have enough quality arms to cycle through during the season you are bound to find a whole bunch worth keeping around. And if your team doesn't appear ready to contend there shouldn't be a problem with throwing a whack of arms at the wall and seeing what sticks.
Jevant - Wednesday, November 10 2010 @ 04:12 PM EST (#225265) #
If Lind gets to .362, I will be jumping for joy.
Mike Green - Wednesday, November 10 2010 @ 07:25 PM EST (#225275) #
Rzepczynski had an excellent outing today in the desert, 6 innings of 2 hit ball with no walks and 8 strikeouts.  Adam Loewen homered, Mike McDade doubled and singled, but Thames took an 0 fer.
bpoz - Wednesday, November 10 2010 @ 07:42 PM EST (#225277) #
I just looked at the AFL Javelina's stats. I suppose the AFL is used for a few things such as.
1) More work for under worked players. Zep gets more innings.
2) Pitchers work on individual pitches. Develop & improve change ups etc...
3)Improve plate coverage, patience etc... McDade's BB & K rate has improved.

Wins & Losses don't really matter.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, November 10 2010 @ 08:12 PM EST (#225278) #

I forgot to mention that when I talk about long term contracts for pitching is usually 3 years with 2 option years.   It gives value to any trades you make if traded in the 3rd or 4th year.

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